BPDFamily.com

  So, I get there early, we had talked about 4pm as target time.    She comes in fully engrossed in a phone conversation, I got up to greet her and she barely offered a side hug, honestly it seemed as though she put the phone between us (but I could be reading into that)  So, Eagles, I gave it my best shot.  She didn't want a hug.  We discussed some medical concerns with daughter and some school concerns about one of our sons.  She asked me to send an email to the counselor at school about my son and I said I would.  She asked about doing it right now and I did it.  There was possibly time to catch him before he left, it sounded like he was about to be kicked out of a class.  So, I sent the email basically saying we wanted to be involved, cc'd my wife and blind cc'd our kid.  Well, she was not happy about the email.  I said this wrong, that wrong etc etc.  Then finally allowed that stating we wanted to be involved was ok.  Well, we turned to lighter topics.  Things seem to be going well at her work she gave away some backpacks and felt good about it.  Conversation is very positive.  Conversation circled back to our son and counselor (she brought it up), I started speaking to try and summarize my concern and she whipped our her phone in mid sentence and held it in front of her face and my face.  Not like looking off to side, but seemed very obvious about holding it between us.  We were sitting across from each other in booths.  I waited a bit.  Asked her what she was working on.  "Just needed to check a few things, "  She put phone down.  Conversation seemed to go normally for a bit.  She seemed to relax.    During a lull I leaned forward and said "

FF wife, I want to be hear for you, to listen to what is on your mind.  I have gotten the feeling that you are trying to communicate with me and are frustrated.    There is a long pause, she seems calm.  She says.  "What I want to communicate to you is that I can't work full time and do everything that I did when I stayed at home"  I validated that there is a lot going on and a lot to do and that is frustrating.  I complimented her that she is doing amazing things.  I also sort of did a readback on her feelings.  I tried to stay away from the debate about what actually is or will be done at home on any certain day.    She then allowed that some of the stuff I am doing needed to be done and she was very happy with what was getting done BUT (there is always a but)  Now it went towards never never land.  I've not mopped vacuumed (continue the list) and she has to do it all.  Her tone changed, posture changed.  

FF wife:  "Plus let's face it, you are a slob"  I walked out (did not storm out or create a scene) and drove away.  I have been consistent that when name calling and these direct you do this and don't do that things start, I disengage.  I am not a target for rage  Well, there is a text exchange that I will post in a bit.  Then I get home to a yappy dog, her sister and her sisters three kids.  Had no idea they were coming.  Part of the reason for the get together was to talk about weekend plans.  Yes, there had been mention that sister "might" be coming up this weekend.  Her FOO, talks about zillions of things, agrees on nothing and something happens.  I don't understand it.  My best guess is if you "talk about" enough stuff then whatever actually happens has been "planned" and shouldn't be a surprise,    She also informed me by text if I want to sleep I should go somewhere else and perhaps should get an apartment so we wouldn't spend so much on hotels.  Sigh.  Text exchange in a bit.  

FF   

  These texts start as I am driving away from the restaurant.  

FF wife: We will be hanging out at our house tonight, bif u need a quiet place to sleep feel free to get a room again, 4:07 PM  ff wife: Was thinking we cld maybe rent a small apt for u so we don't hv to spend so much on hotels 4:08 PM  Me: Please don't call me names and be critical of me. I am doing the best I can 4:08 PM  ff wife: As am I and I am doing these working outside the home and the work of the stay at home parent as well , 4:10 PM]  ff wife: If u don't like to hear that I am happy to work with you to make a cleaning schedule for u 4:10 PM  Me: You are doing awesome stuff with all the work you are doing 4:10 PM  ff wife: I did not call you a name please do not say things that are not true 4:11 PM  Me: Slob 4:11 PM  Me: Did I imagine that? 4:11 PM  ff wife: Positivity. Does not make not doing the cleaning ok 4:11 PM  ff wife: Did not call u a slob, yes u imaginedbthat 4:12 PM    ff wife: I said you are a bit of a slob in your habits and it is the truth 4:13 PM  Me: Was that a compliment? How was I supposed to receive that communication 4:14 PM  ff wife: Getting angry and saying I am being critical by bringing up the fact that I work and still do the job of stay at home parent is not being critical of you, it is opening up a discussion to fix a problem 4:14 PM  Me: If you would like to know my emotions or how I am feeling please ask 4:15 PM  ff wife: How am I supposed to receive the message that u just don't do he stay at home parent jobs and leave it for either me to do on top of working outside the home or it does not get done, 4:15 PM  ff wife: I do not want to know, I just want the stay at home parent to do the stay at home parent share of the workload at home 4:16 PM  Me: There is a lot to do, frustration level is high, you are doing amazing things 4:18 PM  ff wife: Join me in doing amazing things inside our house as well as outside in the garage, please, amazing things like mopping the floors vacuuming putting clothes away 4:20 PM  Me: I understand and feel your frustration, I am not in a place right now to accept critical comments or to give them 4:21 PM  ff wife: again positivity does not excuse you from pulling your share of the at home parent you need to do the stay at home parent work 4:21 PM  Me: I am doing my best there is a lot I would like to discuss with you in a non critical solution focused way 4:22 PM dinah new google voice: Calling my request for the stay at home parent to do the stay at home parent jobs criticism is not OK try and get out of the work 4:22 PM  ff wife: tay at home parent who is you to do the stay at home parent worked criticism so you then do not have to do it 4:23 PM  Me: I think I understand what you are feeling and experiencing. I want to understand and empathize with you feelings 4:23 PM  ff wife: You do not get to label your wife's request for the stay at home parent who is you to do the stay at home parent work criticism and then say you are not in a position to accept criticism 4:23 PM  ff wife: You have no idea what I feel or am experiencing 4:24 PM  ff wife: If you had even the smallest clue you would keep the house clean and make dinner so did I do not have to after coming home from work 4:24 PM    Note: this is the basic mousetrap that she has constructed, that I will NOT get in.  That my performance at home equals my feelings for her. The performance standards are not stable.  Me: I hope and ask for time to share my feelings and experiences with you so you can empathize with what I am experiencing 4:24 PM  ff wife: I am too busy doing the job of working outside the home and doing the work of the stay at home parent 4:25 PM  Me: My understanding is that you expressed your feeling during dinner which is what I am basing my understanding on 4:25 PM  ff wife: Based on your reaction you didn't hear anything but what you wanted to hear 4:46 PM  

what did you hear her say?

To me, it seems you heard the criticism "slob" and it was game over.

Yes, she did call you a slob, but that isn't necessarily calling you a name. It wasn't kind, or polite, but if you are messy and she comes home from work to a messy house and feels she needs to clean it, is there any truth to her statement?

Are you a slob? Does she come home to a messy house?

To be clear, this is what I heard.

Your wife is at work all day and if she comes home to a messy house and has to clean it, she feels frustrated.

If you are the stay at home parent, she would like you to clean it when she is at work, so she doesn't have to do this when she comes home from work.

Did you hear this? If you did, I don't see anywhere in the text or your conversation that would communicate to her that you did.

What I'm seeing on your part is more deflection than validation. That might have been your intent. I think it's best to avoid continuing text exchanges when you are so far apart on what you're talking about, and the emotional charge is high.

I saw deflection too. I could even feel myself being frustrated with the text.

   ff, my heart goes out to you. Reading your post and your texts makes me glad I'm divorced and my current  relationship is on hold. You're doing a really good job of hanging in there.

I really appreciate being able to read the text exchange, it normalizes things for me.

 The house is not up to her standards.  She did not keep the house to her standards.    We are similar in neatness styles until she has a fit the she demands it done right then.  We are 2 weeks into this house, what she is asking I cannot deliver.    I have vacuumed, I have not mopped because I only found it today when I unpacked.    So I used a wet hand towel in stead.  Her perception of things and mine are incredibly far apart.  I can agree on goals and cannot and will not guarantee results.  I am doing the best I can.  I agree many times those are pitiful results.  That is not in my control.  

FF

I heard her say she can't do it all.  She heard that back from me.    I tried to empathize and also state that I don't expect her to do it all.  She sets her own standards and expectations.  I have suggested many time that she do less.  She wants me to do more.    There is no more.  

FF

Well... .unless you kick the teens into high gear and start directing them with military precision.

Seriously... .is there an opportunity for a short (one hour) burst of activity with the family (kids) just prior to your wife's arrival home so that she walks in to a more structured, clean environment?

 I have tried that before.  She claims it is me shirking my duty.  She demands that I do it alone.  Yet she freely grabs kids and randomly puts them to work.  

FF

Seriously, While she has never threatened to call police dur to my use of kids to do chores she has ordered them to do other things after I put them to work doing something.  If I am home alone with kids we work reasonably well together.  Kids know the drill.  When Mommy comes home there is chance work is over and fun may rule.  

FF

I think I get this now. I also feel that I do my best but my house isn't up to my standards because it's hard to get everything done with kids.

I think you are doing the best you can. Your wife did too but she may be idealizing that memory of what she did when she was a SAHM. Her feeling you are not doing what she did could reflect that memory and her own frustration.

I think you are doing the best you can- moving and all is chaotic at its best.

If she is at work, then I see that as the perfect opportunity for you to organize the kids, and they have to complete it before she gets home.  Use the power of having 8 kids, instead of it being a liability.  Also, if you are the stay-at-home-dad, then you get to define the cleaning standards, imo.  When she cleans, you don't get to direct her on how it is done, so she can't direct you when you clean either.

In my opinion, you were too quick to leave the discussion.  I would have let the slob comment go, or at least ask her not to use names.  Were you already getting angry before she said that, or did you just leave because that is your boundary?

 Hey, was not angry, the name calling and criticism is, the use of always never and all that is triggering to me.  If I stay until I feel triggered, that is not good.  So I have a boundary and I stick to it.  If she doesn't like it, she doesn't like it.    This is not news to her or a new boundary.    My value:  I am not a target.  I don't control people shooting at me, I can and do remove the target from their line of fire.  

FF

 Fian, Not saying you are wrong or arguing at all.    History:  I used to ask her not to use names.  Zero successful results.  Please understand I am a numbers guy, I shy away from use of always, never and all that.  Many of my posts will say 99% sure.    I can't remember a time that I asked or warned her not to use names and it was a good outcome.  Sure the outcome varied.    "No I didn't use a name", or upping the game or some other dysfunctional behavior.  So, I shortened my boundary to walking away.  Saying something on the way out like "I am leaving before I say something I regret." seemed to me like the word flinging that she does.  As I thought about the "rules" of dealing with pwBPD, my understanding is that the action is much more important that what is said.  I am completely open to constructive criticism, comment, agreement disagreement, etc etc.  I want to be the best at this that I can.  Note, my wife is currently bucking up again saying she will watch TV and do whatever she wants and that my sleep options are elsewhere.  I asked her if she was sure she was comfortable taking this stance and she said she was, it was her house and she would do as she pleased.  Sigh, boy, these stories are complicated.  This is my fathers house.  He owns it.  My wife and I have no legal claim to it.   I didn't engage my wife on any of this.  She knows I am trying to sleep, she is keeping kids up right outside my door, she has clearly said no, that I am not sleeping her tonight.  I am much more rested that last weekend.  Not triggered, seem calm.  I'm also sure that I am not "doing this" much, if any longer.  I am sad about this.    

FF  

I keep wanting to offer something here, but I'm still working on validation.

Reading your text exchanges, they seem to be a ground where she builds up like a thundercloud and becomes very arrogant and demeaning towards you.

What happens when you ignore her texts, after a brief acknowledgement she made contact.

For example "FF wife, i will be home to discuss in person. Just tap me when you are available. "

Or something. I get the impression the more you validate, the more inspired she becomes, and not in nice ways.

  I've taken a stand.  This is complicated story.  This is my Dad's house.  My wife was claiming it was her house and she could make decisions about what happens here.  My Dad came over and clarified house rules for her and that his son gets to take care if his sleep issues in this house.  She flipped out and called her Dad who came kicking and screaming into the house demanding police be called.  Police showed up and listened to both sides.  Wished me a good nights sleep and I believe have sent wife and kids to basement to let me sleep.  This may end my marriage.  That will make me sad if that happens.  Of course my wife did the standard drivel about being done, keeping kids from me, etc etc.  Kids were called to room to watch and participate by my wife.  Bad scene.  I feel a bit weird.  For me to be talking calmly while my wife is in there crying and doing hysterics and then for me to have a calm conversation with the officer.  Really weird.  Surreal.  Sigh,

FF  

BPD is indeed weird and surreal and creates many bad, sad scenes like this for families. I'm sorry for you all that this has hapoened.

What is said by the pwBPD is never in my opinion drivel, it's just that in my experience the pwBPD is often misheard and not heard.

What you both have to say is equally valid, however IMO pwBPD often 'luck out' in their attempts to be heard because they are the ones with the problem, they are after all emotionally unstable. So police, mental health professionals, family members and SO's never really hear them.

It took me a very very very long time indeed to really get this. I wasn't listening to my h, I couldn't hear him, I didn't want to, I was reacting from my own emotional agenda over and over again.

I was either too busy rescuing him, persecuting him or playing the victim. Stepping out of this dynamic everytime has quite simply changed our lives.

Can you track your responses and reactions to your wife in this thread against the roles set out in the triangle of conflict?

FF, this all sounds super tough. I'm sorry!

I wanted to flag one issue. You say your dad, who owns the house, came over and informed your wife that you (his son) would need arrangements that allow you to actually sleep. I applaud the sentiment, but -- why your dad and not you?

 OK, so why call my Dad and not go straight to police.    This may come out a bit random so please help me put it together.    My (our as in wife and I) finances did not allow for a purchase of a house.  My dad (and mom) are aware of trouble in the marriage but are low on details.  They want to be supportive and provide a stable place for us to have a home.  Renting a home with 8 kids is just not practical.    My Dad spent his money, time and effort to get us a house that provided for the needs of those in it.  He, like me, is a detail guy and asked lots of questions of my wife and I about how things would be set up.  The need for sleep (and my associated sleep hygiene issues) was covered as was the need for watching TV and having a recreation area.  So, to be clear I did state my case that I needed to sleep.  I'm numbering my different points but not trying to rank them.  1.  My hope was that an outside resource less than police might help things. 2.  My Dad had never seen or experienced (to my knowledge) a BPDish episode from my wife.  I have never gotten into details with him about any of the events.   3.  This is beyond my capability to deal with.  There is a concept of shining light on an issue and creating accountability.  Someone needs to know that I am not being allowed to sleep in the family home. 4.  My Dad needs to know that his wishes for the way things are conducted in his house are not being followed.  I considered telling him last weekend, but was hopeful this would blow over. 5.  My Dad is a calm and non reactive guy.  He did not argue or engage in any silliness.  He watched, appeared to be sad and said (no attempt to quote) that this was not ok, people need to be able to sleep and that he and nobody else is the owner of the house.  Did I answer the question or clarify the role of my Dad or why I called him?  

FF  

In general, I don't think it's a good idea to involve parents in a marriage, but in this case, your father owning the house might be a good thing. I hope this isn't an end to your marriage (unless it was your decision) but the fact that the ownership of the house would not be involved in a marital dispute is probably a good thing. One less thing to deal with.

But it does set up the potential for triangle drama.

Still, it is good that you have a support system.

I didn't realize that your parents lived nearby. Is it possible for this to be a place you can sleep if you need to? Less costly than a hotel.

  Role of her Dad.  I saw stuff out of him tonight that I have never seen before.  So, about 230 or 3 am I was woken up by a coughing fit outside of the door to my room.  Then heard the TV, loud and clear.  I exited the room and let them know I had been woken up and thought that we had a plan for success with them going to the basement.    FIL (wife's dad) hopped up and keep repeating that people have to be able to live here and I will have to go somewhere else.  Several kids and cousins (my nephews and nieces)  are meandering around the room.    Her Dad starts talking about calling the police again because of my behavior.  I'm standing still with splints still on my arms wearing boxers.  I may have moved, I don't believe I did much movement and the FIL starts kinda bouncing around like a boxer saying "are you going to attack me, you better put your arms down and not threaten me.  I'm calling the police, (repeated it several times).  Wife starts trying to calm him saying ignore him, he doesn't matter.  (him being me, I believe)  Anyway FIL, said I'm calling the police, he (the police) will be here quickly.    Then her jerked the door open and "hopped" out of the door, slamming it behind him.  Another surreal moment for me, I've seen my wife do that same move with doors many times.  He pops back in the door in less than 30 seconds, says police are on their way and will be here in 10 minutes.  The TV was turned down, people got quiet, I went back to bed and dozed off again after 15-20 minutes.  To my knowledge there was no police response the second time.  Sigh, I'm strangely calm with some tinges of sadness.  

FF

 They don't.  They are in hotel and appear to be sorting out their future plans.    I am only child and these are only grandchildren.  My gut says that they will eventually move around here (or wherever grandchildren are).  There are obviously conversations that will need to happen with may parents today.  My Dad heard lots of tattling and threats from my wife last night and we need to have a clear conversation about the way forward.  My Dad has roots in this area and still has farm close by.  Farmhouse was torn down years ago, so this is the only suitable house for 8 kids that I or my family.  Quick refresher:  We moved here because my kids will get free college due to my veterans status.  Multiply by 8 and that solves lots of finance issues.  

FF

ff what warranted calling your dad to come over in the first instance, unless I've missed that it's not clear to me from what you have written?

I can't even begin to count the number of people in that house- three generations, kids, cousins. That is a lot of personalities together under one roof- a blessing, and also a challenge to have all the personalities in one place.

I am so sorry FF.  

I can see why hugging her was not going to work. It seems like she was on edge way before she even met you at the restaurant.  

I respect you for upholding your boundary. I know that name calling/accusations are really triggering for you.  From what I recall from prior instances when you walked away, doesn't her emotions skyrocket shortly thereafter? Although there were opportunities in the text conversation to diffuse things, in my opinion nothing productive was going to come out of the text conversation.  

How did it go from text conversations to parental involvement and police?  

 Like validation I still struggle with the triangle.  But I am getting better.  Historically, I used to rescue my wife a lot.  I easily fell into that role as an acts of service guy.  I've quit that for a while.  Looking at the triangle I generally have been the victim for a while.  I will tell you that I don't consciously choose that role, or want that role and I try to not dwell on it and work around my disabilities.  For instance, today I meet a neighbor.  He identified himself to me as disabled in our first couple of sentences back and forth.  You wouldn't know it by looking at him.  With me, you might notice my gait or posture being off.  Really depends on where my body is at.  I used to actively persecute my wife when I had enough.  Very bad period in our life before bpdfamily.  She would sleep deprive me, yammering away until I had enough and I could drive her from the room with my voice and presence.  To be clear, never physically tossed her out.    I don't believe I persecute her now.  My wife claims I do, but the stories are that I persecute her because I failed to do this or that.  Did I answer the question?  Thoughts?  

FF  

Thoughts? This just sounds so chaotic to me with extended family involved. There is the potential for more triangles than my kid's geometry book.

I wish I had some advice, but to me, it looks very complicated and a real challenge. I know people with large families and I have a lot of respect for them- in fact ,I am in awe of some of their organization skills.

A move, changes in roles of parents ( working/at home parent ) finances, extended family nearby- every single one of these changes would be an adjustment for any family. If there is BPD along with it, it would likely be complicated.

 Last weekend I was worried about being in control of myself due to my tiredness, that was one of the reasons I chose to go to hotel.  History:  I have rarely left the bedroom or house to sleep somewhere else.    The stuff I have to take with me to make sure I can get my hygiene right is a bit preposterous, but it does work.  So, in the past when she would rage at me in bed, I would lie still and wait it out.  It would usually blow over.  IMO, I got better sleep that way than going to hotel.  IMO, I got better sleep last night than I did on either one of the nights in the hotel last weekend.  Now, to answer you question.  I was "warned" via text that if I wanted to sleep I better make other plans (paraphrasing, I think I posted the text).  I came home to a yappy dog and people in the house I was unprepared for.  They have a choice to go a couple blocks away to my wife's parents house and do TV all night long make noise, party, etc etc.  That is what regularly happens at that house.  Apparently that is what they expect to regularly happen at this house (and I don't get to sleep here)  My Dad is the owner of the house and one of his desires is that I be able to sleep here and take care of my needs.  I was hoping it would avoid police or escalation.  Her dad was the instigator of police call.  The police calmed things for several hours.  

FF  

 My Dad is actual owner of the house.  I hoped he could calm things.  I think I have posted about it already.  This was, to my knowledge, his first in person viewing of a BPD episode.  

FF

Thanks ff for your answers. I'm just off taking son dancing, I have lots of thoughts to add later  :)

I am familiar with your history with sleep and know it is very important for you.


This is what I was meaning, what happened as soon as you got home. It seems like things escalated quickly.

I imagine how frustrated you were considering her last text and coming home to excessive noise. Did you ask them to keep down the noise level so you can sleep?

 EaglesJuJu, Hey, I see what you are asking now.   Time from when I discovered other people here until it escalated was about 4.5 hours or so.  So, I get home and get a clue about what is going on.  My wife is not back yet.  I place call to the father of the nieces and nephews (high conflict divorce from my SIL about 7 years ago) and ask if he is aware of where his kids are.  He said he heard some rumblings that their "might" be a trip up to see us (6 hrs) away but wasn't sure.  He believes that they all skipped school today (against his wishes) to come up.  Communication between him, his ex wife and kids went dark the day before.  He was upset because there were issues he was trying to sort through with kids and comms were shut off.  Normal scheduling stuff it seemed.  At that point I actually saw my niece and asked her who all was here.  She responded they all where.  Which I reported to her Dad.  So, wife gets home and comes into kitchen where I am and it seemed like she was trying to "fake nice" with a mocking tone.  I expressed my lack of understanding about what was going on and asked her to clarify what she believed would be going on that evening.  Already had text from her telling me to go elsewhere to sleep, but no mention of cousins.  She acted stupid for a bit like she didn't know what I was talking about and then said it had been explained to me already.  I allowed I remembered a mention of them "maybe" coming up and that was an item I had hoped to discuss over dinner (plans for weekend).  I let her know I had hoped to have an hour or two of kids help to finish out the garage.  She said that would NOT be happening as it hadn't been discussed yet.  My recollection is that we had discussed it a few times.  She said I would have to do it by myself while she was at work and kids at school.  Note:  I can not do it by myself.  I need another teenager strength person or better to help.  This is known and discussed previously.  She stated that her family was here, she works and she decides (paraphrase).  I disengaged and went elsewhere.  I then went to store to get some space and clear my head.  Called my pastor (from last place we lived).  He has been somewhat involved, I've known him for longer than I have been married.  My request was for prayer for wisdom and I also had a basic question to make sure I wasn't out of my mind.  It seemed to me that things had gotten way better for a long period of time, he agreed and said several people had noticed how much improved things seemed to be.  For you drama triangle types, you may find this interesting.    He listened for a bit and then said.  It appears she has stopped rescuing you and has turned on you.  Most likely is angry that you are not fulfilling the role you used to play.  He has not formally counselled either of us, but has had several chats with each.  He did not give details but said he had several conversations with my wife and in all of them she reported the relationship much better, it seemed genuine, etc etc.  So, I'm back at the house and at about 945 I approach wife and SIL and kids and cousins sitting watching TV (although it was paused at the moment).    I said I was going to start getting ready for bed and hoped to be trying to sleep by 1030 and asked for consideration with noise level after that time.  (45 minute heads up)  She nodded in the affirmative, said a very weak OK and I went and got in hot bath, tried to relax, think, focus, pray and otherwise make sure I was calm and in good frame of mind.  I think it was about 1035 when I first approached them about noise level.  There were voices at a level "just less than a holler", basically loud animated conversation and I could clearly hear TV.    Zero amount of white noise would have helped.  In my Navy career I routinely wore "double hearing protection", foamies in the ears and a helmet with sound proofing.  You can still hear, people just have to be loud.    I am certain that with "double hearing protection" I would have been able to hear the voices and likely the TV.  (just to give you idea of noise level)  It went from there.  

FF  

OK ... .deep breaths ... .you can work this problem... .

Let's take a look at the big picture for a moment.

My impression, from reading your posts for the past several months, is that you're someone who's managed to get a tumultuous relationship with your BPDw to a stable place, through lots of hard work and self-reflection. You struck me as someone who is very organized, methodical, self-aware, and more than a little controlling. You recognized the progress you had made and felt a lot of confidence because you were able to improve your marriage. You had a lot of concrete strategies in place -- you do this when she does that, you enforce this boundary by doing this and such, you validate in this way, you don't engage in that way ... .and so on. And it was working well enough for the situation to seem stable and manageable. And you did all this in a household with eight kids! That's no small accomplishment! It's more than I've been able to do, by a long shot. Truly, my hat is off to you.

Then, you moved.

Moving is stressful for even a normal household. Even a small household. It affects and disrupts everyone -- BPD, non, and kids alike. I see from your postings that the effects on your wife include more dysregulation and more attempts to control the situation by controlling you. I see the effects on you include increasing anxiety and desperation as your stable situation has quickly become unstable, and your old plans and strategies are ineffective. I assume the kids are also acting out in various ways, too.

I think your absolute best case scenario is that your whole family needs time -- months, not days -- to establish and settle into a new routine. For your part, that will mean finding new plans and strategies to manage your relationship, which means you'll have to let go of your old habits and rules. Don't expect that things will just settle back into the old patterns after this period of disruption is over.

That's the best case. There are other scenarios. Divorce is certainly one of them. I see you're beginning to despair and starting to think about that. It's OK to do that.

That's the big picture.

In the short term -- the two flashpoints of conflict I see are your sleep hygiene and the conflict over household chores (your wife's perspective) or her demanding control over your time (your perspective). I recommend trying to take short term actions to dampen down those flashpoints.

Your wife's suggestion that you find an apartment for sleeping is not a bad one. Do that. Right now, there are way too many people in your house for you to try to negotiate a working situation. I don't have huge sleep problems, and I'd be stressed out just having a dozen or more people of various ages hanging around my home all the time. Get yourself a place to sleep and use it. Don't wait until the evening goes south and you have a stand-off over noise and TV. Just go there every night when it's time for bed. Get a place for a couple of months.

The second one -- the conflict over your time -- is trickier. You could try to create a plan in writing, perhaps using something like flylady.net for guidance to divide up who is going to do what chore on which day. That might be a way for you to acknowledge her concerns about chores without ceding her control over your time. I'm unsure if this is the real issue, or if her anxiety will shift to a different issue, but it might be worth a try.

Deep breaths -- you can work this plan.

As bad as I feel for you in all of this, I feel worse for your children.  Can you clarify your comment last night that your wife called in children to "watch and participate?" 

I was wondering how the kids even function at school if they are up making noise all night.

For home schoolers, they can sleep in, start school at noon or whenever, but public school starts early in the morning. How are they not falling asleep in class, having trouble paying attention?

With my parents, I think it was our school routine and dad's work that set the routine in the home. We went to bed because we had work/school and there was nobody else to make noise with. We didn't have a TV, except in the living room ( one idea, get rid of the extra TV's).

Once Dad retired, there was no routine. It felt crazy. Parents each eating whenever, going to be whenever, getting up whenever. Not necessarily together. We had moved out and I think Dad had plenty of choices of rooms to sleep in, or stay up with TV/computer.

And for your wife- does she not have to get up and go to work? When does she sleep?

It all just sounds so chaotic, I am sorry. I think I'd feel crazy too.

 I do as well.  When I speak to them there are droopy eyes, it's hard to connect with them.  The poof, out of nowhere they are ordered to bed at an early hour or a day or two with griping that everyone should  have know better, how could they. (this griping coming from my wife)  She did say that D10s bedtime during school was 10pm last week.  I was shocked a number was mentioned.  That same night I believe D10 was sent to bed around 11.  

FF  

 S15 was ordered to come to the room and "set everyone straight about me"  The prosecutor (mommy) said things like "S15 didn't daddy do this and didn't daddy do that.  Some items from years ago, some items were twisted beyond recognition.  S15 was silent and at some point gave a weak "yeah" to something.  There was crying and cousins hugging.  I think the youngest in the room was  2nd grader.  :'( :'(  It used to be shocking, then it went away for a long time.   Now it seems to be back.  

FF

The running of a household with eight children in it has got to be incredibly stressful. I can't even imagine keeping up with everything, including the cleaning.  

Obviously, cleaning and maintaining order in the home, sleeping schedules, and the running of the household are important issues.  But, none of this is really about that in my opinion.  

This is about your wife trying to force you into submission to whatever it is she needs from you at the moment--and that keeps changing.  Even if you asked how high every time she told you to jump, it would never be enough.  She seems to thrive on creating chaos and making you the target.  Her behavior has to be doing a ton of damage to the kids.  

Do your older kids know anything about BPD?  :)o they realize their mom is mentally ill?  

I am sorry this is happening. Honestly, I have nothing to add that you don't know already, have heard from other posters, therapists, pastors.

I grew up with this kind of triangulation, mom calling me to her side against dad. It only worked when she said she was leaving him and taking us somewhere cool, but that never happened. It was one of many of her ideas that she came up with but were unfounded. Eventually though, even though we weren't told about BPD and had to pretend she was normal, we knew something wasn't right. We would have never testified against dad had she followed through with her threats to leave. I still consider my father the only "real "parent I had, and so your steadiness as a father has an impact no matter what your wife says.

If I had a wish it is that someone told us the truth about her, but what would I know, I was a kid, and I only know how it was for us. I know my dad did the best he could, a phenomenal job when I think about it.

Your kids will know more than they let on. They probably already do.

I wish you luck with this. It is difficult.

I also just want to give you a hug. I grew up with a mentally ill mother, severely BPD along with severely alcoholic. My mother was the expert at splitting and triangulation. I am one of five and none of my surviving siblings talk to me. My older brother committed suicide in part because of the abuse we suffered. My mother even blamed me for his suicide to my siblings, because I had reported being molested by one of her sex offender boyfriends.

Long story short: my mother constantly pitted her children against each other and against our neighbors, relatives, etc. She was like a spider in the middle of a very sick web. She was always the victim, too.

I want to tell you it would have meant everything to me if I had a father like you. I was left at my mother's mercy. Your kids will eventually figure it out, and rely on your stability. Of course that doesn't mean you need to stay with your wife. Just be aware of how important and special you are to those kids. 

FF, keep your eye on the big picture here.

1. Lots of stress for both you and your wife. (Moving, no job, new job, money shortages, etc.)

2. Your wife is reverting to older, worse behavior

-- Attacking/blaming you in front of the kids

-- Threatening divorce/kicking you out.

-- Control battles, manipulation, and bad behavior around taking kids, inviting kids, etc.

3. In the last ~year you've been learning new tools, and changing your role in the normal dysfunctions your wife has been involving you in. (I mention this because the change in you is yet another stress on your wife)

... .

First off, I don't see any reason to believe your wife actually wants a divorce from you. I think this is just one of the tools she uses in control battles with you. She *may* want that in the moment she says it; I wouldn't bet either way on that. But more realistically she probably doesn't.

Second off, there *may* be big enough issues between her and you that you would leave rather than put up with them. As in the sort of thing that both you and she find to be a hill important enough to die for.

Still ... .It doesn't matter how many times she's said divorce to you. As far as she's concerned, your mention of it will be going nuclear to her. I think you know this, and know not to say anything of the sort. (If it hits that point, I'd probably let a lawyer tell her after working out your strategy)

But this is all perspective. Not actions you need for today.

Aside: I wouldn't take an apartment for yourself... .without consulting a lawyer first. Moving out of the house and moving away from the kids sets a dangerous precident if things got really ugly and a custody battle started. (Especially because in a legal pissing match, the property owner would be kicking her out, not you... .at least I assume that is what your dad would do if it came down to that.) Keep renting hotels if you need to... .and if you can find a close-enough-to-drive-to friend who would offer you a guest bed on short notice, all the better.

For today all you need to do is decide which things you will put up with, and which ones you won't.

... .

I've got no concern that your wife thinks mopping is *THAT* big a deal.

I'd challenge you to consider what is really going on with things like the chores... .she is feeling out of control. She has very limited and poor tools for self-soothing. One of those is "Blame FF" She's picking it up. Not because she believes it. (Doesn't matter whether she does or not) Because she NEEDS to do something about her out of control feeling and that is what she reached for.

And pretty clearly if you fight her over blaming you for the chores, she gets the payoff she was looking for--distraction from her out-of-control feeling because she's now fighting with you instead of feeling out of control!

Sleep deprevation. But not by your wife. She is their "rescuer".



Brainwashing. But not by your wife. She is "raising" the children and helping them too see the "truth".

Oooh, that's still very shocking to me. A manipulator often uses covert tactics. This is BPD in full bloom as she manipulates your children into HER WAY OF THINKING. I'm sure that is very painful for them. This is blatant brainwashing and it is never going to end well. Especially for the children. Is this going to be part of her new routine in "her" new home?

I don't think I need to tell you your wife is VERY unwell. While women generally like to refer to the home they're living in as "theirs" the delusion over something as straightforward as who "owns" (and hence controls) the new home you're living in is telling.

This has BPD need for control written all over it when the move has created enormous stress for your wife. Only problem. She is out of control. She should not be permitted to run the household in this way. There are many more lives being placed at risk.

You involving your Father cannot really be criticised as I read your points and they were all valid... .AND it is his house AND you needed outside help with this. She has really dug her heels in. Your wife calling her Father was completely innappropriate. It is only in battle to the death that you call for reinforcements. What is your wife trying to accomplish?... .what are her motives?

I am extremely disappointed (but not surprised) how your Fathers generosity and hence your own providing has been recieved by your wife. Your Father might own the home but you "provided" it. It is your contribution. She wants to "forget" all this and claim your family's home as her own... .?

Her requesting her Fathers "assistance" is nothing short of disgusting. What was that for exactly?... .she was in no danger or threat because you wanted her to be aware of the TRUTH and needed some sleep.

I have no idea how he actually "assisted" her or the situation. He tried to tell you what to do in your own home. He tried to pick a physical fight with you. He made (empty) threats of police because the reality was you couldn't sleep with the noise that THEY had already agreed to be kept down on the previous visit.

The rest of the family has a "right to exist" but the complete and utter lack of consideration for yourself for such a basic need such as rest is very alarming. And the fact that your wife and her Father seem almost hell bent on having you arrested... .to serve THEIR OWN ENDS is such a red flag that you need to think carefully about protecting yourself legally as well from these people as well.

The door hopping moment was a realisation. Connecting the dots if you will.

Although this was all about you, it was never about you.

Withdrawing was the only right option here.

And I'll also add that you had every right to and taking a stand was a very appropriate action... .I'd say just about mandatory.

What happened after that was completely out of your control.

All I know about divorce is from listening to friends who went through it, so take anything I say in context of that. However, I have heard that if you move out of the house, that can be a case for abandonment of the marriage and children, which can affect custody. So I agree with GK that you should not rent a place, and I also view your wife's pushing the idea with suspicion as it could give her an advantage when it comes to custody.

I also think that it would be a good idea to talk to a lawyer, not because you are thinking about divorce but to know your rights and what you can do to protect yourself. I say this because she involved her father, who threatened you and also accused you of violence and involved the police. I do not put it past him to call the police and accuse you of violence or negligent parenting. You have no idea what your wife has told him about you, and being a father, he would believe her and defend her and protect his grandchilden. I don't know what he was thinking last night, but there is no telling what your wife said to him. You are a father, and if you believed someone was a danger to one of your daughters, I would bet you would be right there to defend her.

I also agree with GK that just because she threatens divorce, does not mean she will do it. I think my mother threatened this so many times that we tuned it out.  But I do think it would help to know the laws in your state about custody, property, and the situation of you living in your father's home. Could she claim it? If she left you and refused to leave - would he have to evict her? I am not suggesting that you end your marriage unless it is your choice, but before you get talked into moving out, or accused of something by her father, or the police come, I think knowing what your legal rights and protection and liability in your state is something important to know.

I think it is possible that she said anything to her father in the heat of the moment, because, my mother has painted me black to relatives, and also to my father. I know what she says because she has called up people out of the blue, said really crazy things to them, and they have called me to ask. However, she also has people in her FOO who she has sworn not to tell me what she said, and warned them not to talk to me-- and they believe her. So some of her FOO believe I have all kinds of issues- that are completely fabricated by her- and of course, she is a poor "victim". I think one of her motives for doing so is to be sure that they would not believe me if I ever spoke about her to them, but I don't do that, as that would be getting into the drama triangle with people who I am not close to to begin with. ( not that I would want to do that anyway)

Your wife's father was off the wall, but it is possible she called him in distress, told him all kinds of things and he arrived quite angry and upset.

FF, I want to acknowledge first that, for sure, I could not and would not live with your wife.  You are much more patient than I would be, despite my name.  There is a cruelty and tyranny to her actions that is frequent enough that it would end things for me.  I also would not want kids to get the impression from me that any of this is remotely OK.

So far, you feel differently, and that is your call, and that is not the point of this post.

The point of this post is that I think the fact that you felt it necessary to call your dad into it is a huge indicator that this is a non-viable situation for your family, beyond what can be managed by just waiting it out or use of techniques.  I am not grooving with your wife, as mentioned above.  That said, the two of you are middle aged adults and parents to 8.  Having your parent come in and say what the rules are because he owns the property is not respectful to your wife, or your marriage.  A married couple's house, no matter who paid for it, is the house of those two people and for better or worse, they somehow set the rules for the household.  Not the landlord, not the person who gifted the house.  If you had paid for the house all by yourself, it would not make it YOUR house where YOU can set the rules.  If she had paid for it all, same thing.  The source of the money for your housing arrangements has to be completely irrelevant to who sets the rules.

If I were your wife, this would p*ss me off beyond belief.  It is not for your dad to say how your house works.  It is for you to say what you need and enforce it as best you can with boundaries and self help.  If you can't, then, that is critical information about the viability of the family relationship. That's my take.  If you're at the point where your dad needs to step in and do your job in the relationship (which is protecting your needs), that tells you a ton.

  I agree on my comments about my Dad.   Would add some nuance.  He was involved in discussions with my wife and me about how the house deal would go.  My sleep issues were specifically discussed.  My Dad has not seen BPD in full bloom and I have made a deliberate choice to keep them a bit in the dark.  They new trouble and counseling but no details.  Not their role at the time.  That has changed.  Light will be shined on this and the situation will resolve itself.  No I am not setting a deadline but in my mind we are talking weeks.  Definitely discussion needed there.  I am learning and walking the path to emotional health.  I am not there yet.  There are a couple of ways I can bring my family along.    Oh, back to patientandclear being pissed with my father coming in.   :)  If you had told a person how something would be, even if you are not married to them, they have a role to play in going, "Hey, you didn't do what you said/agreed."  Hope that clarifies.  

FF

FF

Plan for tonight.  I am going to movie and then to hotel.  Too tired to risk not being in control.    Plus we agreed that she gets house with noise tonight and I get quiet house to sleep in tomorrow.  Not going to hold my breath  Thank you for all of your help.  Keep comments coming.  

FF

Yes, I do get that -- your dad playing the role of witness; and bringing outside light onto the situation.  That makes sense.  I think the difference is significant btwn dad as witness (healthy) versus dad as decider.  That's got to be your role together with your wife -- if that is possible.

Best of luck FF.  You are so honest in your self-assessment and the assessment of the situation -- my hat is off to you.  You are keeping your feet on the ground and your eyes on reality.  Thanks for the good example.

I'm concerned about what your father in law is thinking that made him accuse you and want to get the police involved.

I think my mother regrets some of the stories she told her FOO about me because it caused them to avoid me ( and vice versa because I know what she said and I'm uncomfortable around them now). This caused a distance in the family. The problem now is that she can't undo it because that would be admitting to them that she lied. I can't undo it because she's convinced them- and they would believe her.

Your wife could have told her dad anything. Even if she didn't feel that way later, to undo it would trigger shame in her. I would be concerned about what her Dad might do.

Right from the start this seems like two people who want to prove they are morally right and it has been an ongoing fencing match ever since.

Your  boundary about up and leaving the restaurant probably should have included not getting into ping pong texting. That always consolidates conflict, allowing the projection to continue via remote.

In reality her desire for a level of cleanliness probably is in the the realms of unattainability for either of you, more like wishful thinking. Even if you achieved it most likely it would not have solved the problem it would have gone somewhere else. It is working that is overwhelming her.

Sounds like her dad has a touch of the disorder too.

stay of the issues of the moment and try to refocus on the bigger issue and goals. she is not happy and probably not sure why, so has to blame someone

Dragging third parties in is just standard triangulation with all the misinformation and smoke screening that usually accompanies this.

  I stayed away from texting for a long time for a good reason.    I'm not good at it and it got us no where.  I don't think I was wrong to attempt some validation and communication, but, I have to admit, it didn't work.  Today she sent a text asking nicely (please and all that) to give her some space this evening.  That was genesis of movie and hotel for me.  I did not respond to text but approached her privately at house with the space tonight, quiet tomorrow compromise.   

FF

I've followed your story for awhile.  You may not do everything exactly right (and who does) but you have had unbelievable patience with your wife's behavior and have tried really hard to diffuse the drama she creates.  You have put a ton of effort into dealing with your wife's mental illness.  

BPD aside, she has a level of nasty in her that surpasses anything I have ever seen by the disordered people in my life--and that's saying a lot.  It's one thing to treat you like crap--and she certainly does--but it's another to drag innocent children into it over and over.

She would never agree I am sure, but she is emotionally abusing everyone in the home.  

I agree with waverider that working is overwhelming her.  I was a teacher for 29 years and it is a very hard, very stressful job. But, if she weren't working and you were the sole bread winner, I am betting that she would find other ways to make you the target of her rage. 

Sorry, FF, but this is when you get the GK dope slap!

The agreement is that she gets to make all the noise and chaos in the house that she wants tonight and you will stay away.

Anything about you getting peaceful sleep tomorrow night will depend upon her choices or your actions tomorrow, not a prior agreement and I hope you know this.

 Oh, hey, might not have been clear, I was going to stay away anyway, too tired.    Even though she doesn't actually compromise much, I don't think that should mean that I stop trying to model/do reasonable behavior.  Ugg, not really getting any good sleep on this end.  

FF

Make that a priority before you make any jaded decisions or reactions

I agree with WW to not make decisions when sleep deprived.

It seems that when faced with an agreement or boundary, your wife does one of two things: agree to it and then ignore it, or raise extreme chaos.

I grew up with the chaos threat. My mother knew it worked. She would even say things to me like " you had better do this or I will cause a scene"  We all knew what that meant, and we were terrified of it. Like Verbena, it was chilling to see the part of involving the kids as it is reminiscent.

I really have a hard time understanding how your wife would even want the all night noise thing. When my kids were little- ( and I don't have as many as you have) bedtime was the only time I had some quiet to myself. I adore them, and love spending time with them, but I also needed some quiet time and sleep. If your wife works during the day, when on earth does she sleep?

If this is recent, there could be an explanation. Perimenopause begins at about the age of your wife. This does not excuse any of her behaviors. But one symptom for me at about that time was insomnia. It was pretty rough and some nights I didn't get much sleep. However, I didn't wake up people in the house.

Everyone needs sleep, kids, you, your wife. Perhaps this could be the first step for you- figuring out how to get your sleep.

As a person who has spent a lot of years sleep deprived, I don't really have to imagine how exhausted you probably have ended up.

Up to the age of about 7 or so, every move my son made at night was an excuse for my ex husband to get up and go into our son's bedroom at night and "help him get back to sleep".  This would happen 6 or 7 times a night until my ex would take our son and bring him into bed with him.

By then my ex husband and I were sleeping in separate rooms, as he wouldn't stop with the nightime antics, and HE was putting on a big show of concern for me getting sleep. It was his choice to have a separate room from me so he could continue this.

Believe me, no one was getting much sleep at that point.

We separated when my son was 7, an ugly divorce and custody battle ensued. During that divorce, my ex as part of his attempts to portray me as violent and mentally ill (to gain 100% custody) filed a restraining order against me. My attorney filed a counter one. Judge granted both.

One of the results of that, was I had my son to myself for weeks at a time, and soon normalized his sleep pattern. Unfortunately mine has never recovered.

I feel unsettled by your wife's behavior. Maybe over time she will calm down again. I agree stay out of those text discussions, she is using them to be agressive towards you and try and force you to jump through hoops to keep her calm.

You try very hard, but I am starting to wonder what all of this must be doing to you on a deep emotional level.  After what I went through, the big scene she deliberately set up and then lit a match to seems very serious to me. My issues maybe.

I would be tempted to disappear that darn tv. 

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