BPDFamily.com

  everyone

After doing some work over on the legal board, I have found some things out that have made me feel angry all over again.

Specifically,
My partner's state requires 12 months.

He wrote me the usual good morning messages today which I haven't responded to yet because I don't feel like faking it.  Last night I decided to grant him his request to watch Star Trek together on facetime and I did that and was not feeling angry. However after a good night's sleep with this new information in my brain, now I'm feeling angry. I suppose I could say I enjoyed watching Star Trek with you too and leave it at that because that is true. I didn't have a problem with him last night, only this morning after woke up having slept with that information in my brain.

My question is do you think I should use the DEARMAN technique to express my feelings to him? I am very familiar with it due to my work in DBT.   I really feel like confronting him with this new information. The part about the 12 month requirement of separation coupled with what he told me about his wife threatening to contest the divorce. That doesn't sound like she would consent to the waiving. Additionally I'd seen no document of legal separation so that means no progress had been being made on the divorce for sure during the first year of our relationship. Now it sounds like my partner's wife would consent to the waiving, however its been 3.7 years since they've lived together.

So the bottom line is I really feel like confronting my partner with this new information.

I also know that in the past he has used my anger against me, accused me of being resentful, spiritually sick, full of the cancer of resentment, needing help, blaming me for not forgiving him. I don't want to go through that again. He may have apologized for saying all those things to me but it doesn't matter.



I also found out 
My partner's state requires 3 months.

I would like to discuss this after we discuss the separation requirement issue.

I could not modify my post, maybe a moderator could edit and put this in.

I remembered the other interpersonal effectiveness technique, FAST, that would be more appropriate here, be Fair to me and him, do not Apologize for my point of view, Stick to my values, and be Truthful.

I did not see FAST listed among the communications skills, only SET, PUVAS and DEARMAN.

I'm not familiar with PUVAS, but I am thinking if I go by the ones you listed, that would be the one to use here, and if so I need to be taught that one.



The bottom line is, do you think it would be wise to communicate to him what I learned from my post on the legal board, specifically what I learned about the separation requirements in his state?

What do you hope to achieve by letting him know what you found out and how you feel?

I hope to achieve authenticity . I also hope to create more space in the relationship. I need to create room for me to feel my own emotions. My partner has severely judged me in the recent past for how I've felt.

He's feeling affectionate towards me but I'm feeling angry towards him, again.

He and I are both in ACA so he knows the affirmation "I can be angry with someone I love".

I think the issue of his divorce is possibly and understandably, a huge trigger for you.

My feeling is that: It is his divorce, his business.

You sound upset, I think you need to find ways independent of him to deal with your feelings of upset-ness.  

My guess is that the chances of you confronting him, in even the most gentle and skillful way, is likely to lead to bad behavior on someones part.  Rather than receiving clarity and closeness, the chances are high that the relationship will undergo more stress and complications.

My personal experience with pwPD has been:  When I am feeling upset/triggered and turn toward the person who it is related to, (even if I do so calmly) the result is usually that the person becomes more symptomatic in their disorder.  It serves as a trigger for their issues.

It is probably wise to focus efforts on maintaining current boundaries set regarding your partners divorce.  Rather than becoming involved in any specifics, remain resolved in what you have already set as boundaries.

I recall FaceTime being a boundary regarding his divorce and a way for you not to resume 'business as usual' with a married man.  I am not sure why you are FaceTiming with him while he is still married.  I likely do not recall this correctly, however, it does not appear that your boundaries are being clear to yourself.  

Things seemed to have calmed down.  They calmed down for a reason.  Be careful relaxing back into old ways and habits just because 'things are improving.'  You two need more calm time under your belt.

If you are identifying things that are working the past few weeks (you previously mentioned missing SO and that being helpful)... . Why revert back to previous ways?

My partner had requested a week ago that we watch Star Trek together . Initially I said no but then when I started to miss him I changed my mind.

I don't feel angry with him because I saw him last night.

I feel angry with him because I found out yesterday that there is a 12 month separation requirement before filing for divorce in his state.

I feel angry that he did not tell me that.

I wasn't asking if I should revert back to old ways but should I tell him what I found out about the separation requirement and ask him why he didn't tell me about that.

Put simply, I think... .

His divorce is completely/ultimately his responsibility. 

I think your business is:

Coping with your feelings independent of him

Maintaining clarity and consistency with your boundaries in regards to his marriage/divorce.


They are related.  What gets confusing and increases unresolvable conflict is when boundaries and clarity on roles/expectations/responsibilities are fuzzy.

I told him I would be open to facetiming him next Friday night to watch Star Trek, so that's not what's triggering me.

I don't feel like being nice to him right now.

I know some other members have told me I could tell him I don't feel like talking right now.

I know I don't owe him an explanation as to why I didn't call him this morning.

Previously I was ok with a morning check-in by phone but this morning I don't feel like talking to him.

He's not pressuring me to talk to him so the pressure I'm feeling is from within.

I really want to tell him what I found out and how that made me feel.

I don't know how to cope with these feelings of anger, betrayal and disappointment.

You seem triggered.  Is this so?

If so, I think it best to get to a place of inner calmness before approaching him in any manner.

Idk what you need to do to address your feelings.

Do you want to explore other options? (Other than turning towards SO)

It might be helpful to cope with the feelings by choosing acceptance. This is who he is, and you are learning what to expect (or not expect) from him and then the choice becomes whether you want to live with this vs call him on it or try to institute that he change his ways.  I think the anger comes from having expectations. What gave you a right to those expectations? Just because you had them?  

Unicorn may I ask why an issue that was so important to you today was not such an issue last night?

I'm a little confused by your depth of anger today v last night? Did you get additional information?

I feel angry. Perhaps we need to discuss what being triggered is.

I'm meeting with my individual therapist next Wednesday afternoon but I don't know what to do until then.

I could thank him for the doc marten boots he gave me because they are protecting my feet from the rain.

I don't want him to think I'm ignoring him. I hate it when he accuses me of that.

The anger comes from the fact he told me he was filing for divorce from the very beginning which is why I allowed him to come see me in the first place. I would have never allowed him to come visit me if I knew he had to be legally separated and living apart for 12 months before he could file for divorce. That was in total violation of my values.

I had those expectations because he initiated a relationship with me under false pretenses.

I've spent 3.75 years of my life with a man who initiated a relationship with me under false pretenses.

I'm furious.

--------

Yes I got additional information.

A senior member of the board recommended I post on the legal board to get clarification.

I did so and was given a link to a site where I could look up the divorce laws of his state.

I found out what the separation requirements were in his state.

He did not tell me those requirements.

He allowed me to have an affair with him without knowing I was having an affair.

Furthermore he lets himself off the hook by stating he didn't feel married to his wife.

He denies he has BPD yet he has the full blown symptom of feelings equal facts.

Would it be honest to say:

Hi dear, As you know, I have been working very hard and am struggling with some things right now.  Please know I care for you, and am not ignoring you, however, I do need time to myself to focus on things.  I will touch bases with you this evening before bed.

I think it is extremely important to... .

1. Identify when you are triggered

2. Learn to take space you need without FOG

I am not sure what happened to your previous boundaries with FaceTime and also daytime/evening txting, etc however, I suspect reinforcing/strengthening boundaries that were working may need to be looked at by you.

I wonder if you have become vulnerable to feeling triggered by the divorce details again due to slacking of boundaries.  Remember, boundaries are there to uphold your values... .so if you feel you are not being true to your values, that could very well lead to feelings of resentment, anger and such.

It sounds good that you are identifying the triggers and have strong insight on where your feelings are coming from.

I say you are 'triggered' because your feeling seems to open up the 'floodgates' of feeling the original betrayal from him.  You are not just upset over a simple possible misunderstanding... .you are now raw to the original betrayal feelings. 

I suppose I call it a trigger when my feelings open up a door to past feelings that are bigger than the moment at hand.

Does that feel similar?

By the way... .  I don't blame you.  I too would be hypersensitive to any percieved incongruence over my partners divorce/marriage.  I think I would feel overwhelmed by feelings in the present, and the history of feelings on my part of feeling betrayed.

I totally understand your anger for what he did. Having read some of your posts I feel like their in never going to be a conflict resolution on this matter.

Do you think any issues you have may prevent you from having a functional relationship? I suppose what I am getting at and pls don't take offence but if it wasn't this issue do you believe you have the potential to have a relationship with him? X

My suggestion is not to communicate anything with him about what you found out regarding divorce.

He keeps bringing his "progress" up anyways. I've said that your involvement in his divorce is unhealthy before, and I still think it is.

That he didn't tell you what the separation requirements were in his state ISN'T A PROBLEM. Because you aren't doing his divorce, and you do not need to meet those requirements, and you *shouldn't* be nagging him about those requirements. Yes, he *should* know them. But no, he really shouldn't be talking to you about them. Maybe he does know. Maybe he doesn't. Not your problem.

So far, he's been "showing off" every half-hearted half-effort he makes toward divorce to you. I doubt this will change. *IF* he does take any real steps... .like doing the paperwork and filings needed to take the first step of legal separation... .It is a pretty safe bet that he will tell you, unless you've truly broken up with him before this happens. (I say that 'cuz he's gone years without the divorce already and may go a similar number of years without a divorce, and I'm not sure you can stick around with him for another 3-5 years waiting on that)

That he deceived you about being married early was a big betrayal. That his actions are clearly showing no real efforts to get divorced while treating you like you are engaged to marry him is also a big problem. This latest wrinkle... .I really don't see how it changes anything important. He's still not moving forward on his divorce, but he wasn't before.

I've already thanked him for the doc marten boots he gave me and I'm going to thank him for the starbucks card too.

I could  say

I've upheld the facetime boundary, and initially when he requested to watch star trek with me I said no but then I had a change of heart. My boundary with texting was morning and evening check in. I agree I need to relook at my boundaries. Getting a good morning text from him provided cognitive dissonance for me with what I'm struggling with today.


No I am upset  because I got some new information on the legal board yesterday or the day before. It had nothing to do with my slacking of boundaries. I'm not having a problem with my values today. I'm having a problem with what happened during the first year of our relationship. This goes back to the initial engagement, involving my community, being happy and today finding out that it was all under false pretense.


I'm not sure if I am comfortable calling what I am feeling a trigger. I literally got new information yesterday or the day before about divorce in my partner's state that really upset me.

I suppose you are right that I am feeling the original betrayal. I don't do well with betrayal or being betrayed. I have never been betrayed before like this. I would never have allowed it to happen if I knew then what I know now. There is no simple misunderstanding that happened. That is what I am trying to communicate. Nothing happened yesterday or the day before with my partner to trigger me. I posted on the legal board at the advising of a senior member and now I have new information that is really challenging me.


That may be true but there is no moment at hand. I am taking space in my relationship. My partner is not pressuring me to call him or text him. I'm feeling internal pressure. I'm furious with him.


In this case no. Posting on the legal board gave me information that allowed me to feel the original betrayal. There is no triggering going on here.


I'm not feeling hypersensitive. I got new information that now I have to process. I am very angry. I'm not feeling an anger in the present. I know where my partner stands. He thinks he wasn't married because he didn't feel married. He thinks his marriage is just a simple legal matter. I totally disagree. I told him the other day that consensus reality saw him as married and he said he didn't follow consensus reality. That right there is the problem in a nutshell. I do follow consensus reality. He thinks because he is an INTJ that he has the right to redefine reality. He thinks his superior thinking skills allow him to be above other people yet he denies any traits of narcissism at all. So I can't talk to him about how I'm feeling because he has a built in defense system. He has told me many stories about his youth where he got in trouble because he questioned authority, and he thought they were wrong and he was right. He is very strong about his convictions. I suppose that is one of the attractive things about his personality however right now it is a huge problem to me because it means I can't talk to him about what's going with me.

The anger you describe feeling about the new information you found out is what sunflower is referring to as 'being triggered.'

What you are feeling belongs either in therapy or being processed internally by you. Until you are able to work through your anger around this, it serves no purpose addressing your bf.

That is funny you say that because he likes to blame me and tell me I'm not capable of having a relationship with anybody because I'm too self centered. No I don't think this is the problem. The problem is he wants to dominate me but I have a very dominant personality. We initially set up our relationship with him in a dominant position and me in a submissive position but then after I found out after from my therapist that he was too damaged to be my daddy so I had to tear that structure down. He still hasn't forgiven me for that.

Btw when I say dominant and submissive position I was being literal. Initially I set the relationship up to be a DD/lg relationship which is a subset of D/s relationships in the BDSM world. I wanted a daddy, and I thought he could be my daddy. Well I found out after many months with him that he was definitely in no position to be my daddy. He still hasn't forgiven me for changing that aspect of our relationship. I remember the day when I decided to never call him daddy again. I had had enough of him telling me I had daddy issues and I told him so and that I would never call him daddy again and I never did. He still calls me baby. I even called him daddy in front of my family and friends, so it was no joke, I really did want a daddy and I really thought he was it. He was not.


I need to add that this alternative relationship structure is what allowed him to have an affair with me for all that time without my knowledge. I assumed he was telling the truth about filing for divorce because I did not know he had to wait 12 months before filing. That means I was actively his mistress for at least 12 months unknown to me. He always said I wasn't his girlfriend, I wasn't the side dish, the other woman, etc. That may have been true emotionally but that doesn't dismiss him from his legal responsibility.

In regards to your question about whether or not I am capable of having a healthy relationship, I have posted on the PI board about keeping the love you find and nobody has responded. I recognize I have unresolved codependency issues. I wrote about that on that post so I'm not going to repeat it here.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=64749.0

The thing is he is actively working on this now. So what I am looking at is how I want to structure the relationship until he is issued his divorce decree. Initially I thought I could resume it once he shows me the petition however what I found out on the legal board is making me change my position. Now according to what he told me and what I found out about the laws in his state it could only take him 3 months to get a divorce decree once he files. Currently he and his lawyer are waiting on his wife and her lawyer to submit some paperwork so they can file the petition. His attorney had offered to do the whole thing but had said why not make his wife pay for her half. I said that's fine. If I said no I want you to pay for the whole thing and get over it with he would. The thing is he is really eager to file his petition so he can leave his state and start his new life. I have a different perspective. I want him to wait until he gets his divorce decree to leave his state and move out here. If he moves before he gets his divorce decree I'm going to have very solid boundaries with him. I do not want to reenter an intimate relationship with him before I see the divorce decree. We have a very powerful physical chemistry between us, I felt it the first time I met him. I do not want to expose myself to that chemistry again  before he is divorced.

I should also add that other people have noticed that chemistry and say we are a handsome couple, we look good together, I look happy when I am with him. I know that when I am physically with him that is true. I do not want to expose myself to that. That happiness was built on a lie, to be blunt, my happiness was.


He is moving forward on this divorce. That is different. I'm dealing with past feelings, that I built this whole relationship with this man and invited everyone else into it and it was built on false pretenses. See what I wrote above about being a handsome couple, looking happy when I am with him, having a physical attraction to him. He is a good looking man, other women in my parish told me as much, even married women. I've seen how other women look at him. I don't think he's disloyal or unfaithful to me. I don't think he was in love with his wife. I don't think he was cheating on me.

What I have a problem is total denial he has any BPD traits at all and yet he lives his life according  to the feelings are facts trait.

I think this to.

Unicorn,

DEARMAN is not the tool. Radical acceptance is. Here are Marsha Linehan's own words:

I once had this job - I was a clerk typist for a big insurance company.  But, I really wanted to be a social worker.  So I applied for a new job. I went to an employment agency and I asked them to help me get a new job and I told them I wanted a job in social work. So, they got me a job in social work.  So I gave notice to the job that I had, which was a really good job in the sense that the people were fabulous and I got paid at least enough to live on. And I gave them notice, I quit that job and I went to the social work job.

I was so excited I cannot even begin to tell you how excited I was.  Ah! I've got a job in social work! So I went in, so the first day, you know you have to do training and stuff, so what did they have me do?  Well, they had me typing. So I typed all day and I was thinking, 'Oh well, it's not so terrible, I'm not going to have to keep typing'.

But the second day, what did they have me do?  I was typing again. So I went and talked to my supervisor and I said, 'Well, when am I going to get to do the social work?'  She said 'What do you mean?'  I said, 'Well, I mean when do I get to do something like social work work?'  She said, 'What do you mean?  Your job is typing.'

And the first thing that went through my mind was that 'No, that is not true.  I took a job with a social work agency.  This can't be true.'

And I actually thought of staying. I thought of staying and trying to make it into a social work job. That would be denying reality.  Because the facts of the matter are, it really was a typing job.  So what are my options? Well, I could have stayed miserable, I could have gotten hysterical. I could have stayed there, fought, told them that they should make it into social work, how mean they were for not doing that. I could have done a lot of things.

My other option was just to accept this was not a social work job. I made a mistake.  I needed to correct the mistake. And the way to correct that mistake? Well, it was to get another job. So, that's just what I did.  When my next break came, I called the employment agency; I told them I'd made a mistake. I needed another job. They said fine, they looked for it.  It took two weeks but I found another job.  I was a lot happier.

Now think about your own life. What is the reality that you are denying?  What are you not accepting for what it is?

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=90041

As painful as this is, and I know it is, you have to completely (radically) accept the reality before you and stop living your life based on a reality that doesn't exists.

Your partner does not want to get divorced now and is only telling you what you want to hear in an effort to pacify you.

This is your reality.  The divorce is like Marsh Linehan's social work expectations.

You need to process this reality as others are saying.

What he is showing you is that he really, really wants you in this role you are in. He is willing to send you money, befriend your dad, coach your daughter, etc. He wants you to be occupy this role. He really wants it.

He is also showing that he will deceive you to try keep you in that role.  Its not one deception, or two, or five - it's years of deceiving you on this. Why? Because if he tells the truth, it has a price. He even told you this. I didn't tell you because you would... .

Confrontations, manipulations, holding back on Facetime, holding your breath, putting rings in the drawer... .its not going to change this.  It is just emotionally abusive.

It's time to see and accept your reality - stop trying to change it  - decide how to live with it. That can be continuing on. It can be waiting on him. It can be moving on.

Beating a goose will never make it a Swan. Its just torturing the goose.

Fair enough, so how to fake nice, bright and polite with him until I work through my anger around this? He has no idea I am feeling angry today. So I've done my job so far. I posted here before talking to him and I still haven't talked to him.

I think the anger may be displaced.  In other words, it could be that you are angry with yourself (for all the time invested and ignoring the signs?) and putting it on him (for being who he was all along). 

He is actively working on his divorce now. In fact I posit that that is why I am finally able to feel my initial betrayal, because there is a light at the end of the tunnel.




Fair enough on the years of deceiving me, after all it was I found out last September that started this whole process of taking a step back from the relationship starting with telling him he couldn't come see me for Thanksgiving last year.



Ok, I haven't confronted him yet today, I came here first.


Ok I get it. That's what I'm working on. That information I got on the legal board was new information for me because it proves that there was murkiness going on, deliberate or not.


I understand that in this case the goose is the murkiness. He told me he was murky because he was a water sign, he is a Cancer, and he told me he knew he had to clear that up because I am a Leo and we have no patience for murkiness.

He's right.


Ok, I get it and I agree, and I need help coping with these feelings because they are overwhelming.

I think it is a good idea to take care of your feelings of anger before engaging with him.  It sounds like you may be trying to do this.

I am not sure what to suggest here.  The link on mindfulness sweetheart provided looks quite helpful.

Sometimes when I feel triggered, I find help using 'urge surfing.'  I read about it in relation to a person trying to quit drinking, but it can be a helpful tool to cope with uncomfortable feelings no matter what their source.

www.mymindfulnesspractice.com/urge-surfing-mindfulness/

Being mindful and just being with how you feel, will allow that angry feeling to come and go within you. Difficult emotions do feel like they will overwhelm you, try and think of your anger like a wave that will eventually wash to the shore.

When you are ready and feeling less angry, as the feeling decreases within you, and it will, then just resume your usual routine with your bf.

Eventually if you follow the process the leads you to a wise mind it will help you reach a place of acceptance.

It is the journey between being triggered and acceptance that is the hardest part to navigate. It is about learning to self soothe.

Absolutely not. I was not ignoring any signs. My partner is really good at being murky. He is was in the communications business. He made millions on selling ideas. If he wanted someone to believe something they believed it.

Putting it on him? Absolutely not.

What I am processing is my original feeling of betrayal because there is finally an end in sight, its finally safe to feel my feelings.

I had not been able to feel my feelings until now.

Ultimately the past won't matter if he is able to show me a divorce decree.

So now I have to work through all this emotional garbage.

He is definitely on his way to getting that divorce.

I'd say I have 3 months to process all this junk because when he is divorced then he is going to be free and clear and I will have to deal with him 100%.

I sure am which is why I posted here before talking to him and I haven't talked to him yet.



Thank you, I have the DBT diary card app and I am well familiar with that technique. I will look at the link provided on triggering and wise mind. I'm also well familiar with that from DBT.

I'm not used to feeling this amount of anger and not acting on it. That is very contrary to my  nature.

Thank you, I will read that .

Thank you sweet heart you are right and so far I have succeeded because I have not told my partner what I found out about the separation requirement in his state, in fact I haven't talked to him on the phone at all today.  I knew that it wasn't a good idea to talk to him about it but I needed help working through my feeling. This is all new to me.

I should also add he doesn't think I should bring third parties into our relationship. I can only imagine how he would feel if he knew I was on this website. I think he would blow a gasket. He views a therapist as a third party and we used to argue all the time about that. I know better now.

I know I need to wait until I call him because I will have to hide  compartmentalize what I am feeling. He is very attuned to voice, and if there is any hint of anything questionable in my voice he will pick at it. I know I don't owe him anything, he hasn't called me today nor asked me why I haven't called him, yet.

We all know that reality of BPD as well, their hyperawareness of others emotions as a survival mechanism.

It is not empathy.

I know that too.

It concerns me that he explains away bad behavior by attributing it to a Myers-Briggs Type Indicator. Just because he is MBTI qualified, he should not convince you that a personality type drives moral or ethical behavior or indicates superior intelligence. It does not. A number of members on this forum are MBTI qualified, and we will all tell you that MBTI does not measure intelligence nor emotional health.

I think it is great to think ahead.

Maybe you could plan a response in case he speaks with you, notices something is 'off' and wants to press you for info?

Do you think he is likely to sense something is off and respond by trying to 'trigger' you to react/spill it on him?

Unicorn -- hello.  I'm sorry you're feeling so upset.  I do think the various posters who say that this is not actually new information -- just a variant on the old information -- are absolutely right.  This is just more information in the category of "he deceived you about his marital status, his availability to be engaged, and his progress toward his divorce, and may still be deceiving you."  You knew all that already.  This is just another detail of HOW he is or was doing that.

I want to call you attention to the boundaries question.  Sunflower is so right, in my view.  BECAUSE of your realization that your partner is not available to be with you in an intimate r/ship on terms that meet your own values, you set boundaries.  This is to relieve YOUR anxiety around engaging in a r/ship that violates your values.  That was a very important step down the road to peace and calm and your own happiness.

So what were those boundaries?  We are all having a hard time understanding them, I think; the only thing that I clearly picked up from your various posts on the change you made in light of his unavailability for an intimate r/ship on  your terms, was no Facetime.

So giving in to his request to Facetime is actually incredibly significant.  This is a small line you picked, but because you picked it, it became quite important.  Now you are communicating to him and to you that actually, things will or might be the same as they were before, even if he does NOT make himself available to be in an intimate r/ship on your terms.  When you send this signal, it may cause him to redouble his efforts to bust more boundaries, and also, reduces any incentive he may have to get divorced.  Why should he?  You're telling  him you'll eventually go back to all the stuff he enjoys with you, even if he doesn't make those difficult slow changes that he seems to have some sort of mysterious resistance to, as Grey Kitty keeps pointing out.

Let me give an example where I did the same thing.  As you know, my exbf has told me he only wants to be friends, but when we do friends, he plunges into incredibly intimate partner-like territory with me, but because we are just "friends," he feels no accountability to be faithful to me or discuss r/ship changes with me, he just does those things unilaterally and then punishes me if I object.  (Shorthand version because this post is not about me, just using my own difficult situation as an example.)  The last time we reconnected, I told him I accepted that he wanted that friends limit, and because of that, I too would have limits that made that emotionally safe for me.  My limit was that we not return to daily emails and texts that made it feel to me like he was my partner.  I told him this.  I would instead write letters.  He would email in response: "got your letter!  It was amazing.  I know I'm not supposed to email back but I just wanted to let you know I got it.  Also, have you read [X webpage]?"

Because of the little tag and question that requested a response, I would respond briefly: "interesting article!  Thanks."  And he would respond back with a para on the article.  And I would eventually have to say "dude, you are emailing and I did not want that."  And he would write back: "oh!  I forgot you didn't want to email!  By the way, would you like to get together next week?"

Do you see that, if I was serious about making my dealings with this very slippery and charming guy emotionally safe for me, I needed to be serious about this email thing?  It was the somewhat arbitrary line I drew, the line that represented in MY mind the difference between "you are my partner and I can expect partner things from you," and "you are NOT my partner and I am NOT going to expect partner things, much as we like each other and want to stay connected in some way."

He saw that line as a challenge and dedicated himself to rubbing it out.  Eventually I let him because it was too much work to keep writing back "hey!  I don't want to email!" and also, it felt withholding, and I too enjoy the emails (at least till I realized he's telling another woman he's madly in love with her while sending me those emails).  But then ... .we slid back into his preferred normal arrangement, where he is my partner but does not acknowledge it and will not be accountable for it, and I am all set up to be ultra hurt by his next love affair.

You gotta define what r/ship you are comfortable having with a man who is married to someone else, and deceived you about it.  Really, you have to be SUPER clear on this, with yourself.  You have to be able to write a sentence that answers that question super concretely.

And then you have to put those boundaries in place, and then you need not to mess with them unless there is an incredibly good reason, NOT "I missed him."  Of course you did.  I miss my guy too, a ton.  Not a good enough reason to make boundary exceptions.  If you do make those exceptions because it feels good at the moment, then you really cannot blame him for thinking he can have an intimate r/ship with you while be married to another woman.  Because he can.  He is.

He was trained to administer the MBTI test.

Regarding intelligence, he does have superior intelligence, which is part of why I want to keep him.

I don't think he is telling me that being an INTJ makes him more moral or ethical.

What he is telling me is that being an INTJ means he questions consensus reality and doesn't live by it.

I think we are getting in the weeds here though.

The point I was trying to make is that when I told him that consensus reality says he's married he said he doesn't go by what consensus reality says.

He would be the first to admit that the INTJ has a very dark side, that many INTJs are criminals and that INTJs are often the bad guy in tv and film.

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My biggest bone of contention is it doesn't matter if he loved or was in love with his wife or not, the point of the matter is he was married for the duration of our relationship. He claims that if he knew his divorce hadn't been filed he never would have come to see me, but the fact of the matter is his divorce couldn't have been filed within the first 12 months of separation, so I've caught him in a lie.

He has also apologized and asked my forgiveness.

However he does not know I have new information, the part about the separation requirement.

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I hope I don't look like a dog chasing its tail. I feel like one.

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To me its a big deal that I found this new information out because its proof he lied to me.

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And I haven't told him yet that I've found proof he lied to me.

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This has to do with his emotional immaturity and wanting instant gratification. He could have flown out to see me as a friend, stayed in a hotel, and not had a relationship with me. I would have been fine with that. Then I wouldn't have all these conflicting feelings now. In fact he said when he initially reached out to me he just wanted to be friends, he had no intention of getting into a relationship with me.

I was able to talk to him on the phone about my morning at my  meeting, at starbucks, at the grocery store and with my daughter without him questioning anything.

Several nights ago he did say he was going to let me set the pace and not force himself on me so maybe he meant that. There was no punishing behavior as to why I didn't call him this morning.

So as far as he knows, nothing is up.

Now I just have to process these icky feelings here.

What do you think the icky feelings are about?

That is not the part that is upsetting me, I know he is working towards  a divorce now. I'm upset about what happened in the past, not what is happening today. I upset about what happened in 2012 and 2013, not what's going on right now.

I told him  when he told me that he was going to withdraw his divorce petition (that wasn't filed according to the court) and file bankruptcy instead that is the point at which I needed to take a step back from the relationship and I didn't. That was Memorial Day 2013, I remember because he still had his business at the time. I remember how upset I was back then but I didn't have BPD family to help me out so I stayed in the relationship and that's when the damage started to rack up.

I'm ok with  today, that's not the problem.

I'm not ok with what happened in the past.

I think radical acceptance is the answer here.

I don't think there's any point in telling him what I found out.

What matters is that he get divorced and he's working his way towards that, and I'm upholding my boundaries.

He didn't push me to watch star trek with him, when I initially said no he was ok with that. In fact he told me he was being mindful of my boundaries and not pushing himself on me.

That's not the problem.


I think when he brings up the divorce again I can discretely point out to him that I found out he had to be separated for 12 months before he could file so he wouldn't have been able to file during this first 12 months of our relationship . That way I'm not confronting him but I'm also not dishonoring myself by keeping silent about what I now know to be true.

The icky feelings are knowing I was being deceived for at least the first 12 months of my relationship. I believed I was having one relationship while in reality I was having an entirely different relationship . I thought I was in love but in reality I was being taken advantage of.

I'm a slightly  more emotionally  mature and sober minded person today.

Why do you think that recently icky feelings resurfaced?

Are you now suspecting that there is a possibility that your SO is still taking advantage of you?

No when I say icky I mean angry, anger is an icky feeling to me, I don't like it. Since I have PTSD I'm totally tired of anger, the fight or flight instinct in me is totally played out.

I'm simply angry about what happened in the past.

I'm fine with what's happening today, everything is within acceptable parameters.

I'm not fine with what happened in the past.

I guess I have to apply all the recovery in me to this and really pray for serenity .

Well, it does make sense that you are angry about what has happened in the past.  It also makes sense that learning more info has reminded you of this anger.

I also have PTSD and for some reason, Anger has been a challenge for me. I think anger is a tricky feeling to learn to live with.  Many negative experiences are associated with anger for many people.  Most people seem to get angry at Anger.

I suppose I tried to avoid Anger in many ways.  Ultimately, I find greatest peace when I listen to anger, and then listen some more.

Yes, I'm angry because of what I learned about the separation requirements in his state. It doesn't line up with what he told me. He told me he knew if his divorce hadn't been filed he wouldn't have come to see me, however his divorce couldn't have been filed for the first year of our relationship. So that's what I have to sit with.  I will tell him about it, but not in an angry way. I will tell him about it when he informs me of the progress on the divorce.


I'm not angry with anger, I'm having to learn to live with anger without acting on it. I'm not angry with how my partner is conducting himself today. He is respecting my boundaries, working with a divorce attorney. I'm fine with the relationship today. I'm not fine with what happened in the past.



I'm tired of listening to my anger. I've been angry since I was a teenager, and then it was at my mom.

I'm going to work on my self awareness inventory in my keeping the love you find book as well as my 10th step inventory in my ACA workbook and go from there. I don't want to take out my past anger on my current partner. I want to make sure that when I communicate to my partner what I found out about separation requirements in his state that no past anger from other relationships (my mother, my ex husband) hijacks the conversation. That is what being triggered is, when you attach past emotion to present situations. Its ok for me to have feelings about what happened in the first year of our relationship and communicate those to him, in the appropriate way at the appropriate time. 

And you don't see that as a sign?  It seems the list of signs is very long going way back.

I think you missed the part where I stated my partner told me he was murky up front and that he was making an effort not to be murky with me. He never told me he wasn't murky. I of course did not know what that meant, that meant this kind of stuff.


What I am angry about is that my partner didn't give me the choice, "Unicorn I have to be separated from my wife for 12 months before I can file a divorce." Then I could have had a choice and wouldn't feel the way I do today. Instead it was "Unicorn I'm filing for divorce" and since I didn't know any better I went along with it. It is a fact that he and his wife have been physically separated since July 2012. He did not cheat on me with his wife. That is not the problem.


If I'm going to subject my partner to an exacting standard that means I have to be willing to subject myself to that same standard and anyone else that I meet. What I didn't tell you is that no man before my partner met my standard. If he is able to get divorced, then I am fine with moving forward in a relationship with him. I don't want to go through the process all over again of finding someone who is the right fit for me. I went through a lot of men before I found him. When I say went through I don't mean slept with, I mean talked to, went out to lunch with, went out to a movie with, etc. My therapist at the time encouraged me to give men a chance. My therapist also knew that I had exacting standards. That is why he was also hoping this relationship would work. He felt that my partner and I were a good fit for each other if he could work through his borderline psychological issues. My partner has suffered a lot of damage in his life.

Unicorn, I get that you're not mad about now, you're mad about what happened earlier.

I wasn't suggesting that you need to clarify boundaries because you're mad.  Boundaries are not about responding to anger. They're about setting terms on which you're willing to engage under the actual circumstances that obtain.

I'm not commenting on your new info right now--I know that was your topic--I'm commenting on how your fuzziness about what they current rules of engagement are going to be while your partner's divorce filing is still pending. There do not appear to be any clear known-ahead-of-time limits now except you won't let him visit. Is that true? I'm saying you need to know what the limits are, and be consistent in applying them, or intermittent reinforcement dynamics kick in and he will have zero reason to believe you will enforce any limits.  And thus, incidentally, much less reason to proceed with a divorce that he has some resistance for whatever reason to pursuing.

The boundaries are we are also not face timing on a daily basis. I granted  him his  request to watch star trek together because I was missing him. We had been face timing daily when he wasn't visiting me since August 2012 until late December 2015 so that is no small deal. I'm actually fine with a once a week Friday night facetime call to watch star trek together so we can have something positive to connect over, that is my idea as opposed to a once a week phone call. There is no pressure for me to call him in the morning. I was feeling that pressure internally. He knows I have cut down the interaction to focus on taking my own inventory and to deal with some leftover baggage from the past.

For me to discover something like I did, the 12 month separation requirement, and not talk to him about is also a big deal.

It wasn't seeing him on FaceTime last night that triggered me either. That was just a coincidence with my post on the legal board.

Like I said, I'm going to have to really pray for serenity here because I can not change the past. That is what I am struggling with. I'm fine with my boundaries today. Everybody knows I've taken a step back and they know why. I'm not fine with what happened in the past.

I guess you could say this is a parallel to what people on the coping board deal with, except I knew when I was a teenager that something was wrong with how my parents were treating me.

I suppose I could try and apply that process to what is going on here, after all there was a period of time when I called him daddy and everyone knew that too.

Hi Unicorn,

I have followed your story basically since inception and have held back my commentary based on your request from some time ago to not comment on your posts if the opinion would not be constructive.  However, I find myself at the point where I can no longer refrain from commenting.

As much as it might be difficult for you to acknowledge what I have to say, in my opinion you need to detach from your partner, regroup and move on.  I feel that your partner is not being entirely truthful about this filing for divorce business and I suspect that the situation will not be much different if we fast forward 3, 6 or however months in the future.  The moderators on this site may admonish my commentary but I'm simply stating my opinion in the hope of helping you move forward.  I realize that you have a lot on your plate with your daughter, your ex, your father and such but your emotional resources are being exhausted by a situation that is untenable.  Please recognize that I applaud your fortitude but simple think that your available emotional resources could be deployed more effectively elsewhere.  Goodness, you have a lot to offer to someone else who would and could appreciate all of your positive attributes.  I will refrain from further commentary if you so desire.

Only the best,

LF

Learning fast, I do not mind what you are saying, you sound like a friend of mine who tells me I have a lot going for me.

I don't think my partner is malevolent , I think he's immature, and it was immature of him to initiate a relationship with me before he had filed for divorce from his wife.

I talked to him tonight and I didn't bring up what I discovered about the 12 month separation requirement time, it wasn't the right time. I'm not angry anymore. As I stated earlier today I'm comfortable with where things are at now, everybody knows I've taken a step back and why.

I'm not in this relationship because I have low self worth.

My partner is an interesting person to me, he's smart, has a great sense of humor, he works in a really interesting field, he is concerned about my well being (when he's not dysregulated) and that of my daughter's as well.

I think what the others said about the divorce being his business, about radical acceptance, is good advice, and like I said I know need to keep working on my serenity.

I don't think you should tell him about the 12-month thing. For one, I'm not sure your understanding of the legal issue is accurate. And also, I don't think it's worth splitting hairs on the details of whether he was legally able to file at the time he told you he was going to file. The reality is that he didn't file, or he filed and then withdrew. And the reality now is that he still hasn't filed. That's the only part that really matters.

This feels like more misdirecting your anger/resentment about the divorce (though this time the hair you're splitting is technically related to the divorce). I still would encourage you to refocus that energy on the current situation and clarifying and enforcing your boundaries.

Also think you should prepare yourself for the possibility that the divorce could take several months or years even after he files. I highly doubt he'll be able to get a decree 3 months after he files. There's something going on that's making this divorce messy and scary to him.

My understanding of the legal issue comes directly from a website that shows divorce laws for each state. He is ready to file, he is waiting for his wife's attorney to provide her side.


I haven't said anything to him, everything is fine with him. My anger is correct, but I have to let it go because I can't do anything about it now. I think I might mention it to him in an off hand way in the future but what matters now is that he gets divorce filed.


I don't think that's true. I know what's going on, its intellectual property rights and it involves other people besides he and his wife. Its messy, that's for sure. Its a complicated divorce.

I'm happy with the way things are today, and that is because I stepped back from the relationship until things are resolved and my partner knows this.

I can't change the past, so I think the best advice was to practice radical acceptance.

So I won't be using DEARMAN to communicate what I discovered to him.

If I do communicate it to him I will use humor.

*mod*

This thread has reached its post limit, and is now closed. Thanks everyone who has participated here.