BPDFamily.com

  Breaking this out from the rest of my recent issues for better focus.  I'll keep another thread going for the more general discussion.  Sleep is important to everyone.  For me, likely it is my Achilles heel.    If I come off like a nutter in this post, please consider I had a sucky nights sleep and have had two weekends in a row of that.  The issue:  Would take a while to explain how several disabilities intersect to really give me a hard time with sleep.  I have found a way to regularly and reliably get good restful sleep.    The pillow is a certain way and of a certain kind, my mattress is a special one we paid several grand for, splints, cpap and a host of other goodies.  There is also a mental aspect of it where I get issues out of my mind, usually take a hot bath or shower.  Multiple sleep studies and dr visits.  I know some people that can sleep anywhere and in any position.  I used to be able to do that, but no more.  I've tried white noise and ear plugs and other ways of sound control.  For me, getting up to go to another room or to a hotel is not a long term solution, or honestly a short term one.  My estimate is that I got about 3 hours of sleep last night in a hotel.  This is after dozing off during the movie.  So, it is likely that my wife feels very controlled and put out by my sleep hygiene needs.  If I were her, I would.  I can empathize and understand that point of view, because I certainly feel controlled as well.  This is a hill I will die on.    If my marriage, family or other relationships die on that hill, so be it.  My sleep, health and longevity are not worth sacrificing.  I need a boundary setting and enforcement strategy that shows strength and signals and demonstrates to everyone that I'm not going to eff around on this.  I will be seeing a lawyer quickly this coming week.  Several issues I need to make sure I understand how they affect me in my new state.    For this post I need to understand how restraining orders work in this state and the process to get one.  My idea is to figure out if an actual restraining order is appropriate at this stage or just a letter from a lawyer informing my FIL, wife and anyone else that I will be sleeping during these hours (10pm to 6 am) and must have quiet.  Me opening the door to ask for quiet and having my FIL dancing around like Sugar Ray asking a guy with splints on his arms if he is about to be attacked is preposterous behavior.  I'm certain he was baiting me.  Remember, the entire family knows I'm a grumpy a$$.   There is 100% truth that I used to yell and scream at their daughter in the middle of the night.  That's been over for years, but to them is is yesterday.  My truth in the matter is that I handled her sleep deprivation tactics badly.  My sleep issues are much worse now that they were then.  If needed or appropriate my father is willing to have a lawyer write one for him as well, or support action such as this. (father is only person on deed to house, is allowing us to live there)   If it feels like I'm suggesting taking a "scuffle" and escalating to "nuclear", please understand I DO NOT have time, energy or health to do a methodical "ramping up" approach.  I need to end this silliness quickly.  "quickly" may have a cost.  I'll pay it.  Obviously all of this is contingent upon the L making sure this helps or at least doesn't hurt my legal position.  I may suggest a draft letter here in a bit.    My thoughts about enforcement.    Calling the police calmed things, but a few hours later my FIL woke me up with noise and then did the sugar ray thing.  So, to be clear, after being told my police to shut the eff up, knock off the noise and let me sleep it took him 2-3 hours to  "not comply".  He said the officer was coming, so I didn't independently call.    I'm thinking about this from the point of view of the next time an officer comes to my house because of middle of the night noise.  A letter is not going to do much.  A RO would give him the power to arrest (at least IMO)  Hoping patientandclear and any other Ls can chime in with their list of questions/suggestions to clarify with the L in this state.  Thanks for all the support.  

FF    

Sleep is a body necessity and primary component of self care.  Not sure you can effective solve anything else with that one first.  Eventually it'll do you it.  But I'm not sure the legal framework you propose will solve it.  It might not be practical in your circumstances.  It still depends on your W and other family members complying, who may be unwilling or unable to comply.  What would be a breach of compliance. In our house with 5 little kids it would never be possible.  Inadvertently, things happen.  Kids get sick.  Wake up at night crying.  Don't want to go to bed.  It always wakes me up and my W my refuse to handle the issue and sleep herself.  Breaches can also only be addressed after the fact, after you've been woken up.

A hotel is probably not a long term solution.  A more permanent small apartment or room or even a camper that you can set up to meet your specific needs would better and probably more enforceable legally because your W would have to purposely wake you.  It does add more expenses to your family budget.  Your state might have some veteran benefits to help, particularly if your disability is service oef/oif related.

I understand the argument/debate about random noises waking me up, kids waking me up, or wife waking me up coughing or getting sick or just going to the bathroom.

All of those things happen regularly and I have found a way to deal with them.

The primary difference is that I am able to mentally process those as "normal parts of life" that are up to me to deal with.

So, my wife wakes me up when she has to run to the bathroom (let's say she has upset tummy in middle of the night).

With all my ridiculous stuff on and without missing a beat I would likely pat or rub on her, express some sort of sympathy/empathy and then drift back off to sleep.

Same with a child.  I enjoy being a caretaker, acts of service is my love language, so hugging a child, getting them a sip of water and putting them back to bed is something "good".  

I can get back to sleep quickly.  

A person that makes a choice to make an extreme amount of noise during sleeping time and then refuses to do something about it is "bad".  I am better at my reactions to this, but it still interferes with sleep process.

Here is the thing.  On the one hand, I get it that my wife doesn't do well with agreements.  We purchased a house, in large part, because the layout "worked" for our family.  We have done this for all our houses and held to the agreements in all of them, primarily because there were no other options.  Putting 8 kids in most houses can be challenging, there is not much room for error.

The area out side of the master bedroom door was specifically discussed as was the basement TV room.  Sleep for me was the issue.  My wife was the one that brought it up (at the time).  

Solution agreed on before purchase contract was signed.

1.  Basement loud

2.  Area outside bedroom door is quiet.

If that is undone, the house and bedroom doesn't work for me, at all.  It's not a power play or about winning or "control" or any of that.

There is history of her following agreements on this in the past and there is also history of her using noise to keep me awake.  My remembrance is that a strong, unwavering response was what fixed it before.


FF

What strategies did you use before that stopped the unacceptable noise?

For me if you're having to consider an RO within your marriage to manage the dysregulations, I would question how this would improve things (unless of course it worked before) ?

I would question this level of intervention in a relationship that will most certainly in my experience cause the situation to escalate.

I can't articulate my thoughts around this very well, but there's is something really off about the dynamics of this situation. Right back to the low level dysregulation around the time of the move, I have felt that your responses have not been as measured as they have previously been. ( insert lack of sleep and stress as factors )

Whilst you might not be feeling obviously triggered, my sense is your responses to your wife's behaviour are communicating to me something out side of sleep deprivation and stress.

The things that concern me are

- involving your father to both observe your w's behaviour and advocate for you about ownership of the new home.

- getting a legal document drawn up that in someone controls your w within her own home

- looking at restraining orders again as a way of controlling the situation


Perhaps some time out to get your sleep back in order might help you gain some perspective on the situation and stop what feels like to me reactive rather than proactive responses to the situation that is happening at home. Spending time sleeping somewhere else at night in the short term might help you reframe what you what to achieve longer term.

My caveat is I'm not saying I know, it's just an interpretation of what I have read.

 

Right, 100% agree.  I can get my sleep back in order in my bed with the sleep hygiene routine and requirements that are set up for that very thing.  It works.  That is the only solution that I have found that works.

I have spent three nights in hotels over the past two weekends.  I probably kept my sleep deficit from getting worse, but doubtful that improved things.

The idea of the letter is to my FIL, probably copied to SIL and my wife.  They were the three adults that were taking active steps (making noise) to keep me awake. 

I do not have time for measured responses.  I must get my sleep back in order.  I understand that to many this seems extreme or they scratch their head and go, ":)ude, just go sleep in a hotel or somewhere else".

The fragility of my sleep is likely my number one health concern I face.  Yes I have been to multiple doctors, Ps and various other medical types over several years. 

I get it this seems extreme.  For me, it is an extreme issue.

FF

ff I am in no way struggling with your need to sleep. That for me is the easy bit.

What I don't understand away from the need for sleep are the extreme measures around your wife's dysregulated behaviour. It's like the lessons have gone out the window and I suppose what I'm wondering is how you expect these measures to improve things?

Maybe you have done this in the past when sleep was an issue and these strategies worked for you then.

I understand and can hear that your sleep and the households behaviour are interlinked, my difficulty is that they are two separate issues and warrant different approaches for each.

TV was on the far, other side of the house.  Literally, I kid you not, my head was next to the north wall of the house and "up" one level from the TV.  The TV was on the south wall of the house.  

Kids had TVs in their room that was right below me, but they did not have volume or used headsets if after my bedtime.

In 2.5 years I lived in last house I probably got out of bed, say 3-4 times to address a noise issue from TV/people that was interrupting my sleep.  I'm pretty sure there was one "back to back" issue (two nights in a row), but my impression was that it was thoughtlessness/careless but not deliberate.  When I complained then it was fixed and I went back to bed and slept.

There were times in the house before that, where sleep deprivation was a weapon of choice.  Things got really bad because of that.  And that was when my sleep was "better" or "easier".

Over two weekends, both weekends that we have been in the house my wife has made an active choice to deny me sleep and has enlisted help of family members to do that.  Granted, in her mind she may have another purpose but the result is the same.

FF

Such as?

FF

Not allowing you to sleep despite an arrangement in your house that makes room for this, seems abusive to me. I understand that it is possible for a family member to unintentionally wake someone up- not feeling well, or a sick or scared child. However, causing intentional sleeplessness to someone- causing them physical and mental harm- is abusive.

Yet, I also understand how your wife may not see it this way. Your situation reminds me of my parents' in a way. For much of their marriage, my father was rovider, seen as the strong one, the knight in shining armor. He did basically everything my mother wanted, provided money ( albeit limited as most families do, but enough for her to have things she wanted- and to compensate, dad spent little on himself), stability, and status through his employment- something you mentioned before. For someone with a weak sense of self, my father provided things that showed- for my mother- visible things like clothing, and my Dad's accomplishments, to talk about, to gain some sense of worth from.

But as life had it, Dad became disabled. Then, the knight in shining armor, the pillar of strength, the provider of seemingly unlimited funds, and the status of his career, became the one who could not do this in the same way. The man who was utterly selfless, could not be so selfless- he needed her to consider him, his needs.

My mother could not wrap her mind around this or process it in any other way than through her victimhood. It was not that dad could not do the things he had been doing for her because he was unable- to her, he was doing this on purpose. In the drama triangle, he was the persecutor, she was the victim, and her response to him was to be abusive. Dad also didn't like being in this position.

This change resulted in a change in dynamics, but it still was the drama triangle.

I know that you are not in control of your disability, and that, you are still the father, the head of the household, and a provider. This is the same for my father. But when his ability to do the things that my mother based her sense of self on changed, this triggered some extreme behaviors in her. Looking at this in context: my father having less ability to provide the basis for her sense of self was perceived as something that was destroying her entire self. Emotionally, he must have felt- to her- like an enemy army and she was extremely angry at him.  Could your wife be feeling this too?

This doesn't excuse her behavior. But it may be a key to how to address it.

What is preventing the lay out of the house being as you planned? (This worked in your previous home as you said. )

Is it not possible maybe using DEARMAN to let your w know that you will be sorting the house whilst she is at work in the layout that you agreed upon. ( get your children to help )

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=160566.0

Acknowledging and accepting that she wants to socialise and can because this is important to her and that you need to sleep and will be able to if music and TV's are in the basement because this is important for your well-being.

This is a link for mindfulness that might help slow down your reactions just a bit,

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=64749.0

Or alternatively is there a room that you could commandeer just for you that is isolated enough to meet your sleep requirements ?

ff I also understand if for you it has moved beyond all this and reached a point of no return that is not up for negotiations.

Potential letter from lawyer:

Dear FIL:

I'm writing on behalf of my client, FF, a disabled combat veteran, who earned numerous awards and decorations during over 20 years of service to his country.  Unfortunately, during the course of this service, FF developed several service connected disabilities that have been life altering for him.  Several of those disabilities have a severe impact on his ability to get the good quality sleep that we all need to function and live life normally.

As part of his medical treatment to manage his disabilities, his sleep hygiene requirements have become quiet onerous for him.  Small changes to his established routines can have impacts on his sleep quality that last for days. 

My client is asking for your help and consideration to keep the house quiet between the hours of 10pm and 6am so my clients sleep hygiene requirements can be met.

My client requests a written explanation of a issue that you made multiple times during the evening of Friday January 15th.  My client heard you say that "Just because you need to sleep doesn't mean everyone else can't live" or words to that effect. 

My client acknowledges and recognizes that in the past he made a choice to engage in an unhealthy relationship dynamic of discussing sensitive issues late at night, arguing during the evening and other sleep deprived behavior that is unhealthy for relationships.  My client has chosen not to engage in those behaviors now and requests that you support him in his decision.

My client has chosen to engage a lawyer to help him protect his ability to sleep in his house because he is confused about the desire on your part to involve law enforcement in interfering with my client's sleep needs.  There obviously are family dynamics issues to be worked through in counseling, in which my client has agreed to participate. 

Thank you for your time reading this letter and I eagerly await your response,

Sincerely,

FF Lawyer

My wife's choices. 

Maybe I should rephrase what I said.  We talked about the way things "would happen" in the house as it related to layout.

TV was going to be watched in the TV room so it would not bother "anyone" (me) sleeping.  There is a projector down there that projects the image onto the bigscreen on wall.  The rest of the setup we would need to get.  Stereo and whatever converter to put a TV signal on the projector.

Currently an xbox type thing is hooked up to it.  I think part of the resistance to wife watching down there is that xbox players would be shooed off somewhere else.

I'm not an expert in buying all that stuff.  I asked S20 and S15 to get what we needed together in an online search and we would purchase it or budget for it.  Hadn't happened.  Granted, really busy with other move stuff, lots going on.

I'm sure they have picked up on the vibe that mommy and family has decided to watch TV in this new location and didn't want to go against it.

So, there was never an agreement to NOT put a TV or device in the room next to the master.  In our other houses there were TVs close to where my head lay on a pillow.  Perhaps even closer "straight line" distance.  The people that used those TVs were well aware of when I woke and slept and respected that.  Never, ever deliberate continued use.

There are no other "free" rooms to move into and there are no bedrooms that would accommodate the bed I sleep in, except the room it is in now.

So, sometimes I shake my head when I write this stuff and "clarify", when wife knows she has woken me up, using a TV in a place where we agreed it wouldn't be used during the times I sleep, and I ask her to turn it down.  Her clear answer is No.

grrrr,

FF

Intentionally depriving you of sleep is abuse in every way--mentally, emotionally, and physically.  You say sleep deprivation is your wife's "weapon of choice."  She knows what she's doing and so do you.  

She can wear you down and push you until you do something you'll regret.  I really think this is her goal.  Every time she decides to get on the crazy train she hands you a ticket to get on with her.  Almost without fail, you tell her no thanks and this infuriates her.   So she forces the kids to get on with her.  Or relatives.  

You need all the strength you can muster to deal with eight children and a BPD wife.  She's crossed the line with this recent behavior, and you have to do whatever you can to stop it.  She won't like it and it may be get a lot worse, but I don't think you have many choices.  

Right from the start this seems like two people who want to prove they are morally right and it has been an ongoing fencing match ever since.

Your  boundary about up and leaving the restaurant probably should have included not getting into ping pong texting. That always consolidates conflict, allowing the projection to continue via remote.

In reality her desire for a level of cleanliness probably is in the the realms of unattainability for either of you, more like wishful thinking. Even if you achieved it most likely it would not have solved the problem it would have gone somewhere else. It is working that is overwhelming her.

Sounds like her dad has a touch of the disorder too.

stay of the issues of the moment and try to refocus on the bigger issue and goals. she is not happy and probably not sure why, so has to blame someone

Dragging third parties in is just standard triangulation with all the misinformation and smoke screening that usually accompanies this.



ff this is taken from your previous thread, it is from waverider, this is good advice, I feel it is relevant here too.

Yes, this describes my thinking very accurately.  This doesn't mean I can do whatever I want without consequence or that ends justifies the means.  

On the one hand I believe that I have done well to not "get on the crazy train".  I used to ride regularly.

Note:  I don't think sending texts badly is crazymaking.  :)ancing around like sugar ray and asking a guy with splints on his arms if he is attacking him is crazymaking.  If I had then danced around to provoke him, I let a snide comment go, I'm positive I could have gotten him to take a swing at me.  That would have been me "getting on the crazy train"

I feel like I'm constantly making choices to NOT get on the crazy train.

FF

FF

Boy, here I go with black/white thinking.  Everybody hang on.

Now, granted I am a "moralist", I do think there are lots of things that are right or wrong and the "right" things are worth fighting for.  (lots of us types in military).  So, sure it bleeds over into other areas of my thinking.

Any, on the name calling thing.  It's really not a right/wrong thing (even though to me it is).   It actually is a fight I can loose and still be OK (even though I would prefer not to loose it).

Now, let's get black/white.

Denying someone sleep is wrong, abusive, put whatever label on it you want.

I cannot "loose" this fight about my sleep. 

Those things are clear in my head and are separate.

So, I completely confess that I feel this way (morally right) and am proceeding along those lines for the sleep issue.

FF

Maybe this is extreme but... .

Since you are already considering use of L letter, RO, etc.

Why are you addressing FIL?  (This doesn't make sense to me.)

Seems to me that the only people who have control of noise in the house is the residents within the home.  And also your dad.

Why not set a boundary around... .No guests in the home past 9pm.  No noise past 10.  

So next time she brings SIL over to make noise, you actually can enforce getting rid of SIL with police if needed.  

Can you get a noise OP? I cant imagine how anyone could measure such a thing to even decide if it has been violated.

As much as I think it would be ideal to set up the TV area in basement when wife is gone, it sounds like this may not even help as she is using sleep deprivation as a weapon... .and likely to find another way to make noise.

Idk... .just tossing ideas around.

I agree, this is abusive behavior - both in terms of sleep deprivation and the special needs that you have with your disability.  That being said,  boundaries need to be about what you will do or not do to care for your needs. I like the idea that boundaries are about stewarding ourselves well. If the boundary is that others will refrain from certain actions,  it is more about control of others. So, what can you do to meet your needs for sleep?

Ummmm, good question.  He displayed the most outlandish actions and said things to me that I completely don't connect with.  Also was the behavior that was closest to getting someone arrested and did result in police showing up.

But really, the idea to send to FIL and copy SIL and wife is so that all adults get same message about my boundaries/issues and all adults will then have an independent choice on whether or not to participate in helping me meet my special needs or taking active measures to deny my needs.

I do see the thought that I should talk to my wife and she should control her guests.  Ummm, yeah, that is how normal families work.

There are arguments in her families about "you can't tell me what to do", this is normally solved with crazymaking of some sort. 

Plus, I am on the opposite end of this spectrum with my family.  While I am happy to tell my Dad about something, I much rather him come look and make his own decision and assessment.  My Dad and I routinely disagree on things and often see things, go about things differently.  It's all good, he makes his choices and I make mine. 

So, since the opportunity presented itself (and for other reasons) I would rather not tell my Dad about how the other family works or the behavior going on, I would rather him look at it, assess for himself and listen to his opinion.

We trust each other, and there is no resistance to sharing a tale vice experiencing it, but I really value his insight.

His insight so far.  "you can't reason with that, "   The way the family works.

Case in point:  When my Dad clarified for everyone that it was his house and if I and my wife couldn't come to terms on things, that he would decide the future of the property (I'm paraphrasing here) he received the following counter argument as to why that was NOT going to happen.

We (me, FIL and BIL) have a rental property in another state.  I used to flip houses a lot.  Years ago they wanted "in" and wanted me to teach them.  Yep, young and naive FF goes for it.  I fronted the money $125k to purchase the house quickly and then later on after property was established and renting well, FIL took out a loan to pay most of my initial investment back.

They are not savers so did not have cash on hand to purchase a house when it came up as good deal.

Anyway, they have never had to dump $$ into the property, but they have put a lot of physical labor into it and they have a loan on their credit report.  Monthly funds (rent) more than cover the loan payment and other expenses (it is/was a good deal).

So, here is the argument that came back.  My Dad says he is owner of property, after my wife was claiming she owned it and would decide.  Now remember, this is his first foray into twisted thinking with her and her family.

They come back with that years ago they have a loan on a house in another state and that means my Dad doesn't get to have any say in the property he owns.  Room was silent for a while.  To his credit, my Dad didn't engage on this, and sort of looking at them with a quizzical expression on his face.

I can't wait for a lawyer to dismember their argument about how they control my Dad's house, :)  Patientandclear, we are ready for your opinion.

FF

Your wife's behavior has escalated to abusive.

Other than sleep deprivation, I recall her blocking the doorway, and one other thing recently.

I imagine that you may need to address the issue of not allowing someone to abuse you?

I do not know what to suggest, however, I feel that the other two incidents of abuse, and the fact of defining her behavior as abuse... .may need to be looked at.

I wonder if addressing her FIL is actually smoke and mirrors and allows her to escape responsibility of behaving abusive. 

My experience in MC was that when abuse occurs... .it needs to be acknowledged... .stated clearly as such.  Idk if you feel this is true... .or if you have had opportunity to point out the abuse label to your wife.

So yes, I completely agree that you NEED your sleep.

However, I wonder if discussing this under the topic of 'sleep' is actually a way to minimize it in some way.

Sounds to me like you are being abused.

 

I have defined it as abuse, but don't dwell on it or repeat it.

For instance, when FIL woke me up and then was giving me crap about not letting people live, dancing like sugar ray, all that.

At some point I calmly, but firmly said "FIL name, you are interfering with my sleep and causing sleep deprivation.  This is abusive behavior and will not be tolerated."  Then didn't debate it any further

I've used the abuse word say, 4-5 times in last few days for different things.

One drew an interesting response when I said my wife was "emotionally abusing" me.  At some point I asked a question about her setting up MC.  She said something like "I'm glad you label this as abusive.  I can't wait to take this evidence to counseling, because it gives me the evidence I need."   

FF

Oh man. FF, I hate to discourage the one route that seems to feel right to you, but I cannot imagine any judge anywhere issuing an injunction or OP directing one adult and children to respect the basic human needs of another adult in their family in a shared household. Because adults in a relationship of choice (marriage) are presumed to be able to work that out among themselves, and if they can't, what they do is separate or divorce. And short of that, your wife has legal right to do what she wants in her own home short of committing a crime against you (assault, harassment meaning threats of physical harm rising above the level of sleep prevention).

I don't think it makes any sense for you to get a lawyer to bluff on this. If wife or FIL call the bluff or visit their own lawyer, it will become clear you cannot enforce your position, which is bad.

I think Sunflower is onto something in the post above.

 

What's the bluff?

I will not die on this hill, but my marriage might.

In other words, I'm not bluffing will not back down. 

Granted, I have to find the right tactic.

One reason to address to FIL is that he does not live in house and was the one making the biggest commotion.

How do you think a judge would look at that?

FF

I apologize for my lack of understanding... .

However, don't issues of abuse go through a whole different set of problem solving skills than regular "staying" issues?

I guess that I imagine when a person is dealing with being abused, then it is not usually wise/helpful to entertain options that elicit the cooperation of the abuser. 

---------------------------------

I suppose part of the way that I approach some problems is to get a clear understanding of all possible choices.  (Even ones I may not want to choose)

It helps me to understand what is possible in my situation.

I wonder what your options are in your situation?  All of them... .including ones you may never want to take... .

1. Your dad is owner, can you get an agreement of terms that residents are to adhere to?

2. In the past your wife had a favorable response to CPS being involved where corpal punishment was concerned.  Would CPS be interested if someone reported emotional abuse to kids.  (Wife pulled them up to attack you). Maybe their monitoring will calm wife's abuse toward you AND the kids.

3. Is there such a thing as an OP for noise in your situation?

4. Consider a therapeutic separation until MC and issues of abuse are acknowledged by wife and steps taken to remedy abuse issues.

5. Consider apartment in case of #4 or otherwise.

6.  Expedite setting up basement to be an awesome place to entertain and hang out.

7. ?

8. ?

And so on.

You may not like/choose any of these options, (and hopefully the list grows with more thinking) however, for me, knowing what I have to work with greatly helps me understand realistic 'bounds' of my situation... .and helps me know what I may be able to work with.

Hi Formflier,

I've been away from the  boards for awhile dealing with problems in my own family.   I think I have caught up with your story but please excuse me if I have stuff out of order or a tad confused.

I certainly understand how events can escalate very rapidly in a situation with a person (or persons) with a mental disorder.   Once that snowball gets rolling it can become an avalanche.   And then there are literally so many pieces in play it becomes difficult to sort through them all.   When things get moving this fast, going from pretty calm to hotel rooms to police to restraining orders in the space of two weeks (give or take a couple of days) slowing reaction times can be helpful.   I agree with what has been said upstream somewhere,  reactivity is high and growing.  You might want to consider how to work on reversing this for the sake of the children if nothing else.

Pulling things apart and putting them in their own separate bucket or category or priority can help internally calm the situation.   It helps by making them more manageable.    It's also hard to pull things apart and handle them individually.   Things will bleed into other topics.  Us all being human and all.   Stay in the issue of the day.  Try to avoid bringing in the history, or the future.   One topic at a time.  One issue at a time.   One hour at a time.

Sleep is a very important issue.  Absolutely.   Having comfortable restorative sleep is a necessity.   No one can function with out it and I understand that your need is critical.   Boil this down to the least common denominator.   What can you do today to get good sleep tonight?  What is the simplest, easiest, least oppositional approach?   I think considering all options from the scorched earth die on this hill to the milder disable the TV through the use of Parental controls might be helpful.    I understand that your health leaves very little room to negotiate around sleep.   My thought is that whatever you decide to do or not do,  that it should meet the limitus test of "in six months will this be a decision I feel comfortable living with?"   Right now emotions are heightened,  sleep has been disrupted for a while, no one is functioning from the 'wise mind' part of themselves.  

You have a lot of things in play here.   Some of them can be addressed in the short term, and some are going to need a longer and more careful approach.    Slow down and take a couple of deep breaths.  

'ducks

I'm glad you are consulting a lawyer, but what I had in mind was a consultation about your legal rights and an awareness of any legal consequences to actions such as you renting an apartment, who owns the house ( marital property), custody, and what you can do if FIL reports false accusations against you. Then when you know your options you, with the advice of your lawyer, can make decisions.

First- I want to thank you for defending our country ( I assume the U.S.) and while you have my respect and gratitude, I don't know if this means squat to your in laws or if it belongs in a legal letter. If your wife and family did have respect for you as a veteran or a human, then they would let you sleep. In theses kinds of marital issues I don't think it makes any difference what a person accomplished. The issues are interpersonal and emotional.

I don't know what to think. The words of the late, great, David Bowie come to mind " putting out fire with gasoline " which might become my own mantra to judge my reactions before I act.

I don't know if this is the place for a lawyer to intervene but I think it is a good consultation so you are informed.

FF this looks like a set up for dis-regulated behavior from the start. I could be wrong however this situation with your wife looks like it's all about control for equality. I think if the tables were turned you would respectfully comply with rules if her dad owned the home. You are not your wife. That aside for a moment, would you feel strange or awkward having your wife's parent set rules in your home? It just seems to me that this is the underlying issue for your wife from what you've shared. Her picking at you about chores is simply her trying to assert some sort of control as an equal partner, somewhere. As of right now she has no control (or equality) anywhere in her own home and she's lashing out by raising the volume, literally, so she is heard. Saying that she "owned" this house may have been a slip of the tongue or simply a clue to what she's really feeling.



I bet she did. Your dad showing up to enforce the rules, that he set out for two adults in their own home, could possibly cement her fears of not being an equal partner in your home. Could sending a letter from an attorney possibly further cement this, not to mention escalate it? She spinning, you're spinning, mindfulness and deep breaths my friend. I understand your thoughts on involving your dad as a witness however that technique is usually used for domestic violence or alcohol abuse issues, to get the issue out in the open and not hide it. In this case however it appears to be strong arming. You have all the cards already, your family owns the house.  

How can you help your wife feel like an equal partner in your home? Imho, if you can find a way to do this you might better the situation with your sleep needs.  

 

Hey, I am definitely consulting a lawyer for a huge range of things up here.  I've always had a lawyer on hand that knows me wherever I live.

I have called my last lawyer, who is also a good friend and cares for my wife and I.  He has wise advice, but doesn't practice in this state.

I'm only proposing a letter from L as an option to get reactions advice from you guys and also to clarify my thinking going into meeting with L.  About zero chance I would leave meeting with L with decision to send letter or even a draft.

Note:  I've had several other lovely legal things going on for the past while.  So, these letters are on my mind.  Between the L and I the last letter I sent took about a week to edit and get to final form.  It was a doozy.

So there will be lots of breathing, don't worry.   :) 

FF

 

Oh, apparently there is a family gathering here at the house today to celebrate MIL bday.

And, this just in, FF airplane flew through storm and is apparently painted white at the moment.   

I had a crappy night sleep.  Feel asleep several times during movie, stayed awake most of night, fell asleep several times this morning while trying to post things on bpdfamily.  uggg,

I'm going to go somewhere else and let them do their thing.

FF

Petty.

You brought in your dad, she brought in hers.

Your dad doesn't live in the house either. You are not married to your dad, in this situation he is your landlord. Rules of the house are generally determined by a husband and wife, for the children. Setting up rules with your dad, instead of your wife, appears to have caused quite a commotion has it not? 

Sunflower mentioned that CPS had been called in the past because of corporal punishment by your wife.  I guess I missed those posts. 

Last weekend she screamed and dropped F-bombs and threatened police involvement if you tried to stop her from taking the kids on an outing, then did what she could to keep you from sleeping.  This weekend she encouraged children to prohibit you again from sleeping and asked them to join in and verbally abuse you.  If CPS has a file on her, wouldn't they need to be made aware of this? 

Someone needs to make your wife accountable.  I have little hope that person is you, FF. 

Ummm, no.

My wife setting up rules and ways of doing things in he house that undermined the central purposes for purchasing the house is what caused the commotion.

It was in full flare before I made decision to call my Dad.  I was either going to call my Dad or the police.  There was nothing further I could accomplish, legally or morally to sleep in the house.

Some sort of shakeup was needed to change dynamic.  Me restarting thislngs would have gone nowhere.

So, descriptors.  Before my Dad it was problematic, went up to flipped out after he got there, and multiple nukes went of when her Dad got there.

Police showing up sent wife into hysterics crying and telling ridiculous tales.

Police came in my room and talked to a calm guy that was 180 out from what wife described and FIL.  I could see the What the heck look on his face.  I think he got the dynamic.

FF

2 suggestions.  One, I would not recommend recording in a legal letter your past mistakes.  They might use it against you in the future.  Two, I think you should look into pursuing the abuse angle further.  If you do not get your sleep, what will happen to you?  By actively trying to interfere with your sleep, they are actively trying to cause those negative effects.

However, I also don't see how a judge can resolve this for you.  Who determines when they are interfering with your sleep?  It would become a he said, she said scenario.  The best that he could do is evict your family (maybe just your wife) from your house, and you live there alone.

I see.


Here's where it gets cloudy.

FF, I see two different theories among posters in this thread.

One (which I think is yours too): your wife for whatever reason (move stress, stress from being the breadwinner) escalated mistreatment of you and moved it into zone that you just cannot let roll off (sleep); therefore, you brought your dad in as witness and to bring light on the situation, possibly (this was true in my abusive marriage when I knew in my gut it had to end) a bid by your superego or whatever to make it harder for you to paper this over.

Two (which I think is Suzn's and a few others): before you moved in, your dad got involved in laying out the rules of the house.  Your wife subconsciously chafed at this and is now bending over backwards to break these rules to show she can, she will not be controlled by you and your dad, it is her house too.  Part of which (it is her house too) completely resonates with me.  I have to say the whole "my dad owns the house we're living in so I win any battles about house rules" situation makes me really queasy.

Have you weighed seriously the possibility that it is the second scenario and not the first?  Again, this is coming from someone (me) who would probably have exited your marriage before this because of the consistent pattern of putting you down and manipulating the kids in your marriage battles, so I don't lightly step into her shoes.  But the whole "is this even my house?" feeling for your wife does ring true to me.  I think it is a big, big mistake for one of you to have a primary relationship with your landlord and for the landlord relationship to be a chip either of you can play in struggles over house rules.

If you don't like the way she's dealing with you or treating you, in my view, YOU need to resolve it, by making some tough decisions and difficult moves, not take a shortcut by invoking an unfair advantage -- the fact that the house owner happens to be on your side.

I see where I created confusion.  Sorry, so many details.

My Dad never once was involved in any way with creating or enforcing any house rule or debate about the house.

What he did ask very pointed questions about was "Is this going to work"?  Not in a figuring it all out way but in making a determination if his purchase of the house would achieve its purpose.  He was doing his due dillegence.

There were a. Couple things he had more questions on and instead of helping  us solve he said that we needed to work on an issue more and get back to him.

The first time in 20 years he has ever been involved in any marriage issue was this.  

This should indicate the seriousness of this issue and that it will be resolved expeditiously.

Good comments.  Lots for me to think on, keep them coming.

FF

Note.  I do get where p&c is coming from.  I see the point about it is my responsibility.  I can resolve this quicker by quickly involving outside resources.  My Dad is one of those.  Quickly is critical.

I work in the criminal justice system. In my opinion trying to file a restraining order to demand silence for sleep is going nuclear.

Restraining orders are not meant to be used within existing relationships. They are meant to provide safety to an escaping battered spouse. In fact when signing them the judge usually issues a non-contact order. If you file a restraining order the no-contact order will mean one of you leaving the home and having very limited contact with your children.

Your wife will need to get an attorney. Court hearings are mandatory for restraining orders, and open to the public, so her job may hear about it, which could be bad for her. Things might escalate. Badly. I am worried that the judge would find against you in the hearing. Wanting to sleep is important but you have other options. Filing a retraining order for sleep will make you look like the crazy, demanding one. If you do have to move towards divorce it is the kind of thing that an attorney will use against you.

It sounds like your wife is being abusive, but please be careful her behavior is also not gaslighting you to the point you start doing regrettable things.

Attorney's wife here. I'll have to agree with Hurtin. Often what we may think is the "common sense" solution is not the legal one. I'm not seeing a basis for a RO and to pursue this path seemingly will damage you in the future.

Agree with Hurt.  Also consider ... .sort of like how they say that, by the time you're hiring a private investigator to spy on your spouse, you probably already know what you need to know ... .by the time you're considering going to court to get a court order to protect your essential interests in your household and marriage, you probably know something important about the status of that marriage.

So FF, from your answer above, sounds like you do NOT think your dad's involvement before you moved in was the trigger for the inconsiderate-to-abusive moves your wife has made re your health and happiness in the past few weeks.

If resolving the sleep issue truly is your hill to die on, and you will let the chips fall where they may re the marriage and other consequences to get that sorted out -- it is true that your dad could evict whomever he wants from that house.  He could let you resume tenancy (ideally with a written lease with these conditions) only because, and on condition that, you agree you will live there alone or with children, but without your wife (though if YOU wanted your wife to move back in, he probably could not enforce that provision against you, because there is a strong public policy recognized by courts that tenants get to choose their own family arrangements and landlords cannot dictate those.  That said, if only YOU are the tenant, only YOU have that enforceable right).  That could actually work.  I'd imagine it would have profound consequences for your marriage, so before you explore that route, I'd consult a family law lawyer and make sure in your heart of hearts you are really able to accept all the consequences of taking that step.  If my H did it to me I would feel it was terribly unfair, so you need to be at a point where that is a result (her justifiably thinking that it's terribly unfair) you can live with.

HurtinNW, what do you see as other options?  I really do want to make sure no stone unturned.

What I believe is my only workable option in the short term is for me to sleep in my bedroom with all the gizmos and gadgets I am used to.

FF

Correct.  My Dad's involvement in house was, or seemed to be appreciated by my wife.

Otherwise, no house.

My wife got her #1 pick of houses.    That pick was consistent for about a month before we did purchase offer.

No impulse here.  And I will say that my wife has been a good house picker for all our marriage.  They have all worked and generally played out as agreed.  Never before a huge departure from pre purchase "plan".  Never.

She has done sleep deprivation before, but we cut most of that out during early counseling.  They stuff that would pop up would be spur of moment hey I want to talk at 1am.  I walk away and come back in 10 min, or sometimes even 5 min and I go back to sleep.  Never give it a second thought.

One of the freaky things about this is that it feels cold and calculated.  Stable feeling of I will do this for a two weekends in a row.  This is new.

FF

FF, I can really sympathize with you about sleep deprivation. I've only experienced it a few times and it is devastating to me--I feel like my IQ is halved and I'm not completely rational.

That said, I tend to sleep really well on a regular basis. My husband, however, has a lot of difficulty falling asleep and staying asleep, so I guess I need to extend a bit more compassion and understanding to him about this. And lately, he's been dealing with high blood pressure, so he's had to quit drinking his usual one to one and a half bottle of wine. So he's undoubtedly detoxing too... .

But to get back to your issue about sleep deprivation. I really get how you've got to be prepared to deal with all your gizmos and plan to be emotionally relaxed so that you can get a good night's sleep. You have to have the proper conditions and that's not something that the average person can understand.

I'm concerned that if you try to make this the basis for a legal issue that people will be rolling their eyes behind your back and that they will minimize your problem--like "why can't this guy just take an Ambien like everybody else does?"

I don't have any good ideas for you and I agree that hotels are not a long-term strategy. Also, renting a room might be considered a step toward separation and count against you if you do move toward divorce. Having to buy a camper seems extreme and certainly not what you had hoped when you acquired this new house--and then you couldn't have your existing bed inside.

I'm sorry your wife is causing you so much distress. It certainly appears to be deliberate and if she won't talk to you about her concerns, I don't know how you can address this.  

I think it feels "cold and calculated" to you because it is.  

As much as I think she planned all this chaos, I'm not sure even she realized how far she would end up taking it.  It would be nice if she recognized how abusive and out-of-control it was, but that may never happen.  

Your dad now has now seen her in action and her dad has shown his behind to everyone, including his own grandchildren.  It's just an ugly scene all the way around, but what's done is done and you do have to have a plan to move forward.  

I don't have any experience with RO's, but I don't see that working out well either.  I also don't see your wife sticking to any type of agreement about letting you sleep, at least not long term.  I do agree with others that getting some legal advice seems like a good idea.   

Once you can get your sleep situation sorted out, the well-being of your eight kids has to be top priority.  Your wife is doing great damage to them.  

Hey, to be clear, my wife has kept sleep agreements before with some " spur of the moment" breakings based on an immediate thing for her.

The long period of bad sleep stuff that I participated in, well, I chose to participate.  Sure she initiated and I didn't know better, but I chose to participate.

Yes I haven't lost my mind.  There are tons of "types" of agreements that I would be shocked if she didn't break.  Kids schedules, vacation plans, activity plans.  It is dysfunctional, I don't like it, but it is "normal" for me.  I use tools and move along.

You guys have accurately picked up that I am a bit freaked bit this for a number of reasons.  It seems she is changing the rules of the game.

FF

I'm following through on Patientandclear's post. Both of you are pulling the power strings when it comes to who is the main wage earner, who owns the house, who did what. These statements make the individuals in the couple feel unequal, and that is damaging to the relationship. Just like it stings to hear her say she is making the money, it would sting to bring up who paid for the house.


Also, as you stated in the letter, reminding family members of your work in the armed forces also has the effect of pulling power. Being good at a career, and relationship skills are not connected. There are many accomplished people who have miserable relationships and vice versa. Even the president of the US is just a dad to his kids, a husband to his wife, and the White House is the first lady's home too no matter who paid for it or who earned the privilege of living in it. In the context of their home, they are equal partners.

I have been on the receiving end of this, and it did considerable damage to the marriage. If this is how your wife felt when you were the main wage earner, then this behavior- even if it is not excusable- not letting you sleep is unacceptable- your wife pulling power because she is earning money could be in part because of her feeling of being less than equal.

Notwendy,

Really good stuff, awesome.

Couple things, not arguing just laying out mindset.  I don't care to hear her say that she earns money.  Non issue.  It's the I get to decide part.  She could have said she wears purple shoes and therefor I get to decide about the house and it would have had exactly the same effect on me.

Probably luckily, money is not that big a deal to me.  Just a bunch of numbers that need to fit in spreadsheet to get stuff done.  In my life I have been in the position where that spreadsheet had lots of zeros and now not so much.  Zeros come and go.  If you remember, my wife absconded with $30k and it really jacked a bunch of stuff up.  I wasn't really affected by the money part.  Funny thing is is probably helped me move past it very quickly.

I'm really wracking my brain to see if there is any "truth" to her point of view or if it is all perception.

I'm having a hard time coming up with it.  For a lot of our marriage I was deployed or in and out.  She made the decisions and I supported her.  Then there was several years when I was around more and (to me) it seemed like true compromise.  Year 15 of marriage, natural disaster and stuff started going off the rails.

I can look back and see hints of things here and there, but I don't think I'm cludo enough to suppress or cover up 15 years of anything close to this.

FF

What your wife said- using the fact that she makes money to justify making decisions that are not fair to you. Money- is a form of power and using money either literally or in a statement to claim the right to be unfair to a spouse or to diminish the contribution of a spouse is damaging to a marriage.

It may be just the way she is- not related to anything you did.

This is one thing that I didn't see coming in our marriage. We met as students- neither of us had any money and our first jobs were about equal pay. Then his earning potential rose while I cut back to take on the role of the home and kids. It was then that he decided that since he made the money - he got to decide what to do with it- and he would also use this to diminish my contribution as a mother / homemaker. He thought it was ok to buy expensive things and not tell me.

I felt more like his employee than his wife. Although he realized the damage this caused and stopped, I still struggle with the emotional division this caused. But at the time he believed there was nothing wrong with the money he made being his money, not ours as a team. I don't know what your wife is thinking.

Maybe Waverider can add to this as he has written some great insights on how motivation is different. With my mother - who did no work as far as house and kids went or outside the home- basically had no responsibilities - she had no problem spending lavishly on herself and no sense of conscience about my father working hard to earn it. I on the other hand would feel terrible just spending money without contributing to the household. I worked really hard taking care of house and kids and am frugal. My H does work hard yet he didn't have any problem thinking that if he earned the money then it was his. Yes he was generous with the needs of the household but he acted as if he resented it- and brought it up in any disagreements. He was also ok with buying the kids what they needed but expressed resentment about giving me money for them because he said " I would get credit for it".

I saw us as a team. The kids all know where the money comes from no matter who buys things.  I appreciate his hard work but it isn't easy to have it rubbed in my face.

I don't feel he saw us as a team. In fact he sometimes expressed that if I got to have the allowance for personal things that he had, it would be unfair and I'd be taking advantage of him. Giving me money for the house and kids was enough in his mind. When I give something to someone - I feel a joy of giving. It seems that my H feels taken advantage of. I don't think I've taken advantage of anyone's money- but he seems to feel that way , even if he rationally knows I don't take advantage of it.

I appreciate you asking me! Honestly, I can't think of any legal way to get what you want here. As they say in my business, there is no law against being an ass. Her behavior definitely sounds abusive but it may not be criminal. The standard for getting the law involved is pretty high.

That said, I wonder if there is some creative solution. As I mentioned, I adopted my kids from foster care. Some of their birth parents are BPD. I wanted my kids to have contact with them, but healthy contact. So I called in a professional mediator. Professional mediators are different than counselors. Good ones are able to get to the heart of the issue and help both parties work out a solution. Once we had our agreement we wrote it in a contract. Do you think your wife might be open to involving an impartial mediator? Not a family member she can triangulate, but a professional mediator who won't give a fig for her narrative. Just someone there to work out a specific problem.

Another thing occurred to me: why are you the one leaving? If your wife wants to make noise, why can't she get the hotel room and party all night long?

I suppose my real question for you would be this: what if you can't change this situation? Can you radically accept this part of her, or is this your rock bottom?

Maybe this doesn't matter but... .

Do you think it is possible that the first night she was loud, that she felt abandoned by you leaving for a hotel.  Therefore now to feel in control, she is intentionally pushing you towards a hotel to act like "FF doesn't leave me for a hotel... .instead... .I send HIM to a hotel!"

I wonder if this was originally a noise punishment (an original anger at you) that she accidentally escalated to you leaving... .but really got hurt about you leaving... .and now is pissed you left her. (A new reason to be mad)

So the more you want to leave for a hotel... .the more she may want to push you out to feel like you didn't leave her... .but she banished you.

If so, thoughts on how would that bear on FF's options?

If so... .leaving for hotels could be the most antagonistic option.

This puts her under 'obligation" and that is part of the perception of power, who owes who what. pwBPD rebel against perceived power. It brings out the martyr and victim trait. Hence the need to call in the rescuers.

 

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=289171.new#new

Mods,

Might be a good place to lock this one up.  Link to continuation is up above.

FF

*mod*


This thread has reached its post limit, and is now closed. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are free to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thanks for your understanding... .