BPDFamily.com

The good is very good

The bad is very bad

They go from one relationship to another but THIS TIME they FEEL it's the real deal. They're enthusiastic about you and sweep you, and themselves, off your/their feet.

Then something goes wrong. That feeling of finally finding one's soul mate goes away almost as fast as it appeared.

They meet someone new and can't believe how much THAT person is their soul mate. It's uncanny!

You don't know it yet but for them it's simply a new cycle. Like a kid who replaces his toys every Xmas with the new fad, it's your turn to get booted out of the favorite toy list.

But you... .you're left damaged and confused. It's like when a tornado picks up a house and transports it to another state. What just happened?

You've experienced love but it was a confused manufactured love, so strong not despite but BECAUSE it was with a disordered person, who in his or her confusion was push pulling you and driving you mad, increasing the strength of the emotions artificially. Push pull push pull. Love you, love you not. Love you, love you not.

And then you hope to one day meet someone else who would give you those feelings.

But the problem is that such strong feelings are only possible when dealing with a disordered person. A healthy person who is stable, centered and not damaged will never be able to manufacture such emotions.

So you are left craving feelings that only the disordered can provide, fully knowing that such relationships are unhealthy and toxic, similarly to how a drug addict feels about his drug of choice.

And that is the paradox of the disordered. Only thru addiction therapy -  meaning NO CONTACT EVER AGAIN (giving up the drug)- you can clean your body from of the toxins.

Stay strong everybody with your NC. It's your only hope.

But what if, after some time, learning about BPD and its symptoms, you realize that you don't want the idealization phase with this person, you realize that you actually love 'normal phase' of the relationship, without the peeks (you being bad or you being the prince).

That you want to avoid the feelings of your partner that you are "someone who can save them"

And you realize that your codependent symptoms triggered your partner's behavior? A partner who actually knew this even before me, but fell for this roller coaster anyway.

And you are willing to work on them, not relevant if with your partner in a relationship or not.

So, basically, I am currently in the phase, after some therapy and self-learning, that I realized that I had the wrong concept of love. This was huge thing for me to admit. Even our society (movies, books, life stories, the general concept of love) learns us the wrong concept of love.

I am working still on this, but 'what-ifs' are bothering me, and I don't know how to stop them (well, I know but that is the ultimate step).

So, I am not craving for "the drug", I am craving for something that I think I can try differently know when I realized this and learned valuable assets.

Is this different type of drug? :)

A "love" with a BPD is not love, it's a strong addiction emotion that's much stronger and unsustainable in the long run, our vocabulary doesn't have the right word to describe all the different shades, we use the same word for a mothers love and an affair love and your wife's love... .

With a BPD its more of a strong crush that's maintained by the push pull and reinforced with triangulation and mixed with sexual addiction. It's totally different than love , more potent but more destructive.

Come to think of it, discussing emotions is really futile.

 

I think that pwBPD are capable of real love, but it gets eclipsed by the high of the "crush."  Like with drug addiction, the high begins to feel normal, so pwBPD chase the high and forget what normal, stable love feels like.  Unlike a stable relationship, pwBPD experience the highest highs and the lowest lows.

It's sad, because I was looking forward to "getting bored" together.

You know, when the relationship has been going on for a long time, but you still love each other.  You're not caught up in the crazy high that is finding someone new, you're not having sex every 5 minutes, you're just content, happy, and sharing life together.

I don't think people with BPD recognize that.  Which is sad because I think mine would have made a great life partner if it wasn't for the drama.

However, love is hard to define and I do feel that I loved (and still love) my exBPD.  Not for the crazy sex and the intense emotions ... .I just loved him.  His nature, his sweetness, how simple he was, and mostly how we loved the same things.  Even looking back at his life before me, we had so many parallels.  Concerts we went to and things we did that were so similar.

I'm not sure it's fair to say that it's not love.

Discarding, acting out, and push pull are not love even though they create intense feelings.  But I did love him.  Very much.  Hell, we were friends before we dated and I was always fond of him.  I thought we were besties

I just wanted to be with my best friend

Really great post NCEA. I dont know about one thing. I think my exGF who clearly is some form of cluster B; avoidant, borderline, narcissistic, she exhibits a lot of these traits. I thought she was a schizoid for the longest time.

I think she in some ways changed me. Or, at least, in this relationship. I started doing things (not right away), but sort of fighting the same way, reciprocating the same behaviors. It took a LONG time. But I'll say this:

Last Christmas (a year ago). I was hurting so much. I knew it was wrong, but I had to talk to my Ex. The one from 5+ years prior who I dumped, broke her heart, and she was married now.

I just had to call her. I was in a really dark place. I needed to talk to someone who truly knew the old me. So I did.

She was so kind to talk to me, for over an hour we talked. I explained how much I was hurting. It wasnt a "i still love you" kind of thing. It was a "I'm so confused with where I am, you remember be, you still know me even though you dont" kind of thing.

I asked her crying at the time "When we fought, did I call you names, like mean names? Did I say really mean things?". 

She responded:   "No we never fought like that, we hardly fought at all".

I broke down.

I responded "Ok, I just needed to ask---- I couldnt remember".

---  Now that said; I was with this girl for 4 years. And I never called her names, disrespected her, said terrible things. But during the course of my last girlfriend, who loved to call me horrible things, say things like "I hate you" "Leave me Alone" "Get out of my life" on a weekly basis (and far worse things)... .Somewhere along our 5 years, I picked up that behavior and started giving it back.

Was I not healthy? Or was I simply pushed so far and for so long that I started to mirror her fighting tactics. I am not sure. I have never prior to this past relationship been an angry person. Never called people names. Never said mean, terrible, hurtful things. Yet with her, I started doing just that. And in some ways it bled outside of our relationship.

Now I am healing, trying to at least. But I wonder a lot of times; did she do that to me? Or was it always there... .and just never surfaced.

You couldnt have said it better. Just getting bored together. I loved that with my past girlfriends. Just calling up, hey what are you doing... .nothing... .ok lets do nothing together. Like did you ever have days where you'd sit and say back and forth: What do you want to do... .I dunno what do you want to do... .I dunno, what do you want to do.  Ahhh love. Where you can just enjoy nothing together. Like Mia Wallace and Vincent Vega... .Isnt it nice when two people can just shut the f$ck up and enjoy a moment of silence together. --- That makes a lot of people well, damn uncomfortable, and restless. Not moving forward, or being "productive" drives some people crazy.

With my exBPDgf - just being chill? That was never ever ever on the table. Everything had to be planned, or fought for. She after the first year, took zero interest in a lazy day. She was always busy, always wanted to "be important" or "on the move". Being busy became or always was "her life".

I thought we'd be besties too. But we had talks about that. She had no interest in me being a "best friend". In the end she made it clear:

She wanted a manly man to lead, take charge, provide for her and stay out of her way. Not joking. She doesnt want a friend. She wants a "sponsor".  A man to provide, take what he wants, shower her with gifts, and let her do what she wants. All with super high drama levels.

Sigh.

Well, it may seem like this at first, especially when we are still in deep hurt about what has happened in the relationship.  There's really not much evidence, however, to support this idea.  In fact, there is far more evidence in the other direction.  pwBPD have a disorder that has a profound effect on their ability to maintain relationships, but that does not make their love any less real.  There is an article on the site from a young woman with BPD (https://bpdfamily.com/content/my-definition-love-i-have-borderline-personality-disorder) who discusses this very topic and what love means to her.  You might find it of interest.

Sometimes we may want to believe we were somehow tricked or bamboozled by our ex, but that's the easy way out.  That's a refusal to look at ourselves and the role we played in the relationship.  Self reflection is hard work.  It's much easier to blame our partner for everything.  If we are honest with ourselves, we will see that we made a great many mistakes, that we engaged in unhealthy behaviors, and we at times caused our partner pain too.  It's by looking at this that we are able to improve ourselves, and thus form healthier relationships.

This reminds me of that song 'when she loved me' from toy story 2.

That song came on when I watched it the first time (2000, I think). I was in a bad place at the time, and I was completely surprised by it. I ended up sobbing uncontrollably.

I'm glad I didn't stumble upon that for the first time in the last 2 months. I might have broken in half.

If you don't know what I'm talking about, do not watch it.

Again, the word "love" covers so much... .

Sure, there were emotions but they're specific for this type of relationship. It's even stronger than "love" in some ways , many ways, but also fleeting and destructive and addictive and short lived and unsustainable.

NCEA Thanks great post.

Cosmonaut brave words, lots to think about there.

Rmbrworst I feel exactly the same. I did truly love him (as well as the high, the crush) and I still do.

Of course if there was no paradox, or real feelings involved there would be no relationship to detach from, or at least detachment would be a complete breeze.

A great summation NCEA, you said it for me.

Thanks.

Interesting post.

My opinion is that this becomes an unhealthy dance between two wounded individuals. Both parties seem to believe that the other party is in the wrong. pwBPD believe they are in love, and I'm assuming the other party does too (I certainly believed that) otherwise the relationship just breaks up.

This dance is best described as a 'trauma bond'. Both individuals become enmeshed in a push pull dynamic which taps into a previously established notion that love is associated with the feeling of pain ( a childhood wound )

Both parties establish an equilibrium of dysfunction which both feel relatively comfortable with,  based on what was the norm in their family of origin.  

Three roles develop in this dance called Karpman's drama triangle. The victim, the rescuer and the persecutor.  When the dysfunctional equilibrium is off balance  one or both parties may shift roles to regain the unspoken equilibrium. This is the destructive side of co-dependence, where (instead of disengaging) the codependent takes up one or more of the roles and perpetuates the dynamic.  

Love is based as others have suggested on caring, intimacy, empathy, curiosity, compassion and friendship

So, she basically wants a daddy! I think this is pretty common among BPDs... .

"this does not make their love any less real" - there are many different types of love. Some rewarding, nurturing, some high octane... .and so on. Can "love" that is destructive be defined as love? I guess that's a long discussion... .

I agree Moselle, we become enmeshed when we subliminally recognise a familiar pattern, albeit unhealthy.

Cosmonaut; it's not mutually exclusive, recognising why we became involved with specifics of behaviour and describing our response, is part of our  investigation as to why we were vulnerable.

I think NCEA's precis is a very good starting point for those investigations.

Let's put it this way.  If your ex's love was so awful, so destructive, so unreal then what on earth were you doing with your ex?  What were any of us doing?  Why are we so upset to lose that love?  Let's be honest with ourselves.  Let's admit that their love was very real.  It was more than real enough to draw us into a relationship with our ex to such a degree that the loss of it has us on a web forum trying to heal and recover from that very real loss.  If there was nothing of value to be lost, we would not be here.  It's very easy to want to say it was all their fault.  We were tricked.  It was all a lie.  That's extremely common among newer members.  And it's a fabrication pushed by certain other sites online full of terrible information about BPD.  It's not reality, however.  If it was, we wouldn't be here.  One of the most critical steps we can take in our healing is when we turn the attention to ourselves.  :light:  |iiii

I Agree. In my case I made mistakes early on especially. But also throughout. Much of what she did were reactions to what I did. And then I reacted to how she reacted.  Don't get me wrong. I think if she didn't have either deep emotional issues and possibly BPD she may or may not have reacted like she did. And then certainly wouldn't have left so abruptly i think. But I have to wonder. Would it have happened eventually any how no matter how good I was

NCEA - what a great post and comparison to addiction.

I am recovery addict/alcoholic and I can tell you as a recovering addict, this relationship with BPD is EXACTLY like an addiction.  You know its bad for you, but you just can't stop. 

You elusively chase the brief high you get knowing full well that it will be followed by a massive comedown and depression following.  The higher you get, the lower you crash.  The lower you crash, the more you crave the high again.

The disease of addiction has two components, (1) and obsession of the mind, and (2) an allergy of the body.

(1) Obsession - this should be self explanatory.  When we're not using or in the cycle with our BPD partner, we are CONSTANTLY obsessing about them.  Which usually leads to a "relapse" or getting back together with them, getting back into the cycle (I love you, I love you not as NCEA said).

(2) Allergy of the body - with drugs and alcohol, when you put it into the body of an addict, it creates a really physical craving for the drug, which is why an alcoholic or addict cannot stop once they start using their drug of choice.  How I relate this to my relationship with my exBPD partner is this - I had a REAL physical craving.  The sight of her, her smells, her touch, her skin... .mmmmm I'm salivating just thinking of it... .I can't turn her down when she is in front of me, I HAVE TO HAVE HER.  And when I do, I'm back in again.

So I agree with NCEA - NO CONTACT EVER.  I have to do with her like I did with drugs and alcohol - absolutely cold turkey.  The no contact takes care of the physical craving, the allergy of the body.  But right now, I'm still left with the obsession of the mind.  So like I do with my 12 step program for drugs and alcohol, I pray daily that God, or whatever higher power you may have, remove my obsessive thoughts.

It took some time with drugs and alcohol, but eventually I was lifted of the obsession and I'm free of that now.  So I'm hoping with time and NO CONTACT, that I will be relieved of my obsession for her as well. 

I hope this helps someone as it does me.  No contact for me means I have her blocked on my phone, social media, everything.  She lives a block away from me and I don't look down her street.  If I were to see her, I look away immediately and I get away as quickly as possible before my brain tries to convince me to engage with her.

If you were recovering from drugs or alcohol, you don't walk into liquor stores or drive by your dealers house if you want to stay clean.  So I'm doing the same to recover from my addiction to my exBPD.

Stay strong!

When people buy a $25,000 watch that is actually worth $250 if it wasn't for the "lifestyle" and "image" attached to it - are they buying a $25,000 watch OR a fantasy that's unreal and only exists in the reality of their mind, to burst as soon as they see someone else selling the exact same watch for 10% the price but under different brand?

It's fugazi.

When people present themselves as X, Y, Z - you fall in love with that XYZ person.

When you find out that they are not actually XYZ but a BPD and that it was all a mask... .Then you can ask yourself if it was real or not. For this to have been real she should have presented herself like this:

"Hi, I'm K and I'm emotionally 12 years old. So don't take anything I say seriously. My mouth is moving but it doesn't really mean anything. I'm repeating lines I've seen in movies and read in books. I'm not really sure about this whole life stuff but I'm pretending to, I hope you don't mind".

The emotions are real but they're manufactured by triangulation, push pull come here go away games with a person who mirrors you and had very little of their own personality.

So is it real love?

I think not.

This may be true for you, and I can certainly respect that, but it isn't for everyone.  There are plenty of members that maintain contact with their ex for any number of reasons including sharing children together.  No contact is not a rule, it is not necessary for healing, and it certainly isn't the best choice for everyone.  It's important to make this distinction for the benefit of all members when we start to have these sorts of pile ons about no contact.

It's safe to say it's not *possible* for everyone but probably *best* for anyone who is able to . I can't see how staying in contact can allow for real healing. It's just like using the drug in low doses but you're still hooked. That can't be good for anyone.

NCEA, I've tried to explain to you and provide articles on the site about how this simply isn't true.  I realize that you may not be ready to do some self examination about your role in the relationship.  That's not uncommon.  It takes time to work through our grief and anger about the relationship.  You've likely also been fed some false information regarding BPD from sites other than this one.  I certainly hope that we are not instructing members with such information here.  We strive for a holistic, clinically based understanding of BPD.

You are of course free to believe whatever you believe.  It isn't helpful to double down on this sort of refusal to look at our role, however.  There are members here that are ready to work on that, and it isn't productive to reinforce narratives like this that seek to shift the blame to our partners.

If you truly believe that your relationship was a fantasy, then what does that say about you that you engaged in that fantasy?  Are you ready to look at that?

I've read that article. I'm talking here on a totally different level but if you can't / won't see it then you can Skip over my posts. (No pun intended)

What it means about me?

Not much. I trusted this woman with my heart way too quickly but I wasn't aware of how quickly and deeply this would damage me, so I'm not beating myself. I'm a trusting person, usually it's a positive trait.

The fact that you can't see it isn't proof of anything other than you can't see it.  You are insistent on this drug addiction analogy, but it just an analogy.  You are free to believe it, and if it is helpful for you then I am glad that you can make use of it.  But to proclaim that it is some sort of objective truth can't go unchallenged.  I am not trying to be severe or curt with you, but it is important for all members that we try to be clear about these matters.

Fine cosmonaut , let's just blame ourselves, like some people blame the Jews for the camps, or rape victims for wearing too short dresses.

I wouldn't get married with her. It was an open relationship. We spent a total of 20 days together over a six months period. So it's not like my mistake was colossal , but I did fall "in love" with that persona she gave me. The reason she canceled me moving to the same city was probably because she knew I was half way to figuring out who she was. She ONLY does long distance ones.

But yes for those who spent years in an abusive relationship- they might have something to do with it too. But don't talk about MY relationship before you know all the facts.

I see both sides. Some of us like me did make mistakes for sure. Others maybe not so much so. And trusting isn't bad for sure. Maybe trusting to a point of being a doormat is or overlooking clearly obvious signs or red flags is. Which again some like me are more guilty of. Can't we all just get along? 

This is so well articulated. Thank you for sharing. Its just so sad because I for one genuinely love(d) him.


:'(

You're right. We don't know what happened in your relationship. Everyone went through their experience uniquely and we're all here to center each other through difficult experiences.

I don't think that it's about blaming anyone honestly, but taking a look at ourselves in the mirror and learning about who we are.

Yes, I totally agree, Cosmonaut.  I was just sharing my experience in the hope that it may help someone else on this board.  Every situation is different and the solution may not be the same for everyone, but hopefully someone finds hope in my experience as I do from all of you too!  I for one am feeling thankful I did not have children with her although I wanted to when I was caught up in the cycle!  Cheers to you all  *)

To go with your "addiction analogy",  who should an addict blame?  :)

(http://www.luanawines.com/Assets/ProductImages/Richie-Page-181262.jpg)

Who should the addict blame?

The drug dealer who was selling drugs in a bag labeled "candy".

That's who.

Maybe this will help... .its a pretty good review and fits the "addict analogy" - its from alcohol recovery.

The Blame Game

Blaming other people means never having to say sorry. If other people are responsible for the bad things that happen in life then the individual can avoid feelings of culpability. Blame involves making a judgment about other people. When blame is apportioned it devalues that other person in the eyes of the individual making this judgment. Those who fall into addiction will frequently blame other people for their predicament. It is only when they take responsibility for their situation that they can be free.

Blame Defined

To blame somebody for something means to to hold them responsible for something that has happened. Another way of looking at blame is to say that the cause of suffering can be attributed to a conscious being. People do say things like the weather is to blame, but by doing this they are implying that the weather has the ability to make conscious decisions.

Blame and Grandiosity

Grandiosity means that the individual has an unrealistic sense of their own importance. Those who exhibit grandiosity will find it hard to accept any criticism and when things go wrong they will quickly find reasons to blame other people. No matter how bad this individual messes up their life they will always have somebody else to blame. Some individuals experience excessive grandiosity as part of a mental health problem known as narcissistic personality disorder.

Self-Blame

Self-blame is a condition where the individual feels responsible for the actions done by another person who has harmed them. This type of guilt is common with rape victims and others who have been through a traumatic event. It is suggested that the individual will resort to self-blame because of their feelings of powerless. If they blame themselves for what has happened it means that they may be able to stop it occurring again in the future. By admitting that they are not to blame for the event they may need to accept that it was beyond their control. It is understandable that people like to believe in a just world, but unfortunately bad things happen to good people all the time. Part of getting over self-blame may be accepting that the world might not be inherently just.

Addiction and Victim Blaming

It was once believed that anyone who fell into addiction did so because they were immoral or just bad people. In the last century this type of attitude began to be considered as victim blaming. The disease theory of addiction put forward the idea that the individual was as much to blame for their condition as the cancer victim. There is still a great deal of debate about whether or not addiction is a disease – some addicts may even use this as justification to carry on their current trajectory. The more modern view of addiction is that while the individual might not be to blame for their problems they are responsible for their own recovery.

Addiction and Blame

The blame game is something that addicts can use to justify their addiction. They can use it alongside denial to remain in their self-imposed hell. The addict will usually be able to provide many reasons for their substance abuse and most of these will involve blame. The typical examples of this include:

* Other people make them feel miserable so that they have to drink to feel better

* Other people criticize their drinking so now they have to hide it

* Their parents made their childhood difficult. Those in recovery can later see the foolishness of such blaming with the humorous comment, I may not have had the best childhood, but I certainly had the longest one.

* Those responsible for the education system did not provide them the right opportunities.

* Their boss expects too much from them. Work is too stressful so they need alcohol or drugs to unwind.

* Their ex broke their heart and substance abuse helps them cope

* Their friends are all have alcohol or drug users so it is their fault for offering so much encouragement.

* They joined an addiction recovery group and these individuals brainwashed them into believing that substance abuse was a problem. This is the reason why their alcohol or drug use is no longer enjoyable.

* The government has ruined the country and the only option is to stay inebriated.

* The banks have ruined the economy so there are no jobs around.

* Humans have destroyed the planet so it makes sense to party in the last days.

* They were indoctrinated into a religion and blame this for their current addiction.

* The opposite sex doesn’t find them attractive so they need to resort to alcohol or drugs for comfort.

The Dangers of Blaming in Addiction

If the individual is focused on blaming other people it can keep them trapped in their addiction. This is because the addict has no control over other people; they only have control over themselves. The dangers of focusing on blame include:

* It provides a justification for further substance abuse

* Blame encourages a whole host of negative emotions that prevent people from thinking clearly.

* Blame benefits nobody.

* Blame can prevent the individual from acknowledging their own faults.

* Blame is often just an excuse for poor behavior.

Blame in Recovery

In order for people to build a successful life away from addiction they will need to take responsibility for their own life. This means they can no longer act like a ball in a pinball machine using blame as the flipper. Emotional sobriety means dealing with life in a more honest way and taking control of things. Those who continue to focus on blame will be unlikely to get the most out of recovery. They will end up relapsing because somebody else made them do it, or they will develop dry drunk syndrome. To say that somebody is a dry drunk means that the only thing in their life that has really changed is that they no longer drink or do drugs – their behavior may still be appalling.

Admitting to Mistakes

If people are to become emotional sober they will need to be able to admit to their own mistakes. If their initial urge when something goes wrong is to blame other people this will prevent them from acknowledging the part they played in the event. Of course there will be many things that happen to people where they will not be responsible, but it is not a good idea to always rush to judgment. In order for people to become successful they will likely make many mistakes along the way. The worst thing that people can do with their mistake is to try to ignore it or blame other people for it. It is only by acknowledging mistakes that people can learn from them and grow. There is nothing to be learned by apportioning blame.

www.alcoholrehab.com/addiction-recovery/blame-and-addiction/

You know, it was not actually a drug dealer. It was a cute girl with a big smile. You're missing the point. They're fake and misleading . They pretend they're someone they're not. They lie. They cheat. They wear a mask. They mirror. Doesn't matter how healthy you are - you'll not always be able to spot it and when you akready do, you're already bonded by sex and a relationship.

Don't tell me that no healthy person ever got involved with a disordered person. It happens all the time. Sometimes it takes weeks or months till the mask comes off.

You're whole "blame it on ourselves too" is starting to get on my nerves really. It sounds more "wholesome" but in some cases it's just BS. Each case is different.

My ex told me she cheated all the time. But she also told me that she wants to change and a bunch of other stuff. I trusted her and I was wrong to do so. It doesn't mean that anything is wrong with me. Some things are wrong with me but it has nothing to do with her.

Just to add to the conversation... .from this article: The Psychology of Victimhood (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=90494.0)




One of my favorite quotes by one of our members was "it was realizing I wasn't a victim, but a volunteer... ."

I say all this because we perpetuate our pain when we get caught up in the catastrophic language. When we get in the thoughts of "my life is over!" or "I will never love like this again!" or "She was the best I'll ever have!"

It's part of our own fantastic thinking.

It's not true. Love with someone who is not disordered is still feasible, possible, and achievable. Of course it'll be different - but there is always a difference in every relationship.

"Boredom" is an addicts reason for using... .when studies show that "boredom" is code word for "depression". The same way that we are not "bored" with normalcy.

Something in us is missing and needs healing. I'm sure that a person with BPD has offered some kind of temporary band aid for whatever that is --- but these relationships aren't usually the sole reason we're hurting. Or need drama. Or excitement. They are simply the catalyst.

In my experience the excitement/drama/mind blowing/adventure seeking is usually an underlying reason for something that we've grown accustomed to ---- from everything to our own martyrdom to the codependent nature that seems to be a common denominator between the lot of us. For me especially, I like to leech of other people's problems because I do not like facing my own.

It's stripping away all this stuff that gets us on a different path to a healthier version of ourselves. We all learn from these experiences. That's what allows us to get over these relationships and be able to function in a relationship where the scales become even. Where we value the other person as much as we value ourselves and vice versa... .

This is totally over simplification. Many of these relationships are disordered in subtle ways for a long long time. These people can pretend to be "normal" for months and years. The relationships deteriorate over many weeks and months. You are usually able to connect the dots many weeks or months after it's over. You hope that they'll change and become better. That it's a phase. That's it's because it's why they say it is like that  - in my case "stress at work and propels with the boss". You're already invested in the relationship for a long long time and had put too much on this stock to sell at a lose so you wait a little longer.

Stop telling people here that they're defective. If you saved a street cat and ten month later you discovered that he has cancer, is that your fault too?

And for the record - last thing she told me is that "she can't wait to be my friend".

I left with grace, until I realized that she's actually evil, there is no reason to stay in contact with someone who genuinely only uses you for his own needs. (Sex, ego, money, whatever)

What my ex did was so "bad" that you don't even allow me to post it, you keep saying it's too graphic.

This is ridiculous how you keep locking up threads that are not to your liking.

*mod*

Let's try to keep this collegial. Some posts have been removed.

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The starting point of curing oneself of addiction is acknowledging it.

In order to do so, the addictive substance has to be identified.

Once we do that we are on the way to recovery. NCEA's original post acknowledges addiction and suggests a way of dealing with it - by taking responsiblity for maintaining no contact. Seems sensible to me.

Fault, blame - they are high emotion words, understandable in the context of withdrawal. Taking responsibility for maintaining no contact, as NCEA suggests, is an adult decision.

If we are going to go with a "addiction" analogy its important to also recognize that addiction recovery is all about taking responsibility.

Go to a meeting or a recovery center.

Hello. My name is John. I am an alcoholic.

I think the support group would offer some push back to the one member that stand up and says,

Hello. My name is John. It is a paradox. It tastes so good, it give me a buzz, but then it makes me miss work, and cheat on my wife. Beer is evil. How could anyone help but get caught up in this?

And even more to:

Don't blame the victim.

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This author of this article makes this assessment - I had never seen it laid out this way. We know that one common pairing with BPD traits is NPD traits.


Doesn't this really get to the heart of the matter in a healthy and balanced way?

Yes, this is so true, "there will be many things that happen to people where they will not be responsible".

This is equally true, If people are to become emotional sober they will need to be able to admit to their own mistakes. If their initial urge when something goes wrong is to blame other people this will prevent them from acknowledging the part they played in the event.

Both can be true.

Interesting to find these quotes in an alcohol recovery article.  Good discussion.

For addiction analogy:

12 steps Step 4: We made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. And that's just step 4. There are 8 more to go.

Addiction is a very painful thing. Not simply because some substance turned the addict's life into hell. Addicts and co-dependents are shame and guilt ridden, through and through. I'm yet to see an addict/co-dependent or a non-addict/co-dependent who was a truly happy, content, wholesome person who all of a sudden found themselves in the throes of addiction or codependency. I cannot speak for everyone of course but it seems to me that if someone insists on that narrative, it is probably because they are not ready to face themselves yet. I was of that line of thinking, feeling. Me, having this wonderful life, coming from the ideal family, high-achiever, financial freedom whatnot. What am I, a card carrying atheist high-achiever el fantastico, doing in these 12 step circles organized in churches where strangers are giving each other hugs? Ah, yes, my partner is crazy, that's why!  All this, only to discover that my family of origin somehow was not as perfect as I was conditioned to see, perceive, tell.

Not everyone may have these FOO issues. Some people may have been truly conned. I believe in this relationship I agreed to be conned. All my anger at my partner is actually, to a degree, my anger for myself. Under that anger: again, shame and guilt.

Most addicts who don't recover organically (yes, some people just grow out of it naturally, even heroin addicts)  and who need support,  turn a serious corner with the help of a searching and fearless moral inventory. Then comes amends, grrr:)) This is such a difficult process, I have tremendous respect for everyone who has gone through this despite that pain. If we don't do that we become "dry drunks" really. We are talking about addiction a lot, that we are addicts. Probably, we will have to look at ourselves and only ourselves at one point. Addicts courageously do that. I sometimes read about fellows who went through these BPD relationships and say kudos, I would have lapsed. And kudos to those who lapsed but managed to continue recovery.

In productive meetings, if we only talk about our "adventures" with the substance (painful or glorious), we may get warned by more experienced members that we should not romanticize because that may be a sign of a lapse and we should also take responsibility and talk about ourselves, not the substance. That's not invalidation, it's a call to recovery, it's help. Trust is very important. Why should people who want to help me would like to invalidate me knowingly anyway? Experiencing this is a whole new experience for some of us in these circles. Initially, we may not trust. 

As all recovering addicts probably admit at one point, addicts are very self-absorbed people and so are codependents. Many are narcissistic in inverted ways. Sometimes your sponsor says "yeah, that happened to you. Live with it." It's like a slap on your face. Horrible, horrible sponsor:)) You are supposed to love me, how can you say live with it to me! To ME, I'm your sponsee! :)) But it's actually a technique to point at Low Frustration Tolerance. Secular recovery programmes have exercises for this, very similar to some DBT techniques. Unfortunately for us declaring ourselves addicts, BPD and addiction thought patterns overlap at some points. I think my BPD partner and I are very similar in some ways despite very clear differences. We will probably have to learn similar things in life, but in different orders.

These are just natural consequences of being an addict in recovery and it's great that there is all kinds of informed help and support here.  |iiii

Those of us having a healthier psychological make-up than myself may have been truly conned - I actually think people with BPD are pretty bad liars, they give us a lot of clues and they speak too much about themselves anyway to be the most advanced liars. I personally can lie better than my partner if I choose to. He is like a three year old who forgets his lies or has a funny look in his eyes or a funny "I'm lying" tone.  Maybe we don't know how to listen, evaluate what we hear or we reject to listen. We don't ask enough questions. We absorb everything said to us happily because they match what we want to hear - something for our ego. I think usually something like "I'm different."

But for those of us who were not in very long relationships, who don't have children, who do not face bankruptcy: even if we are conned, even if we truly loved and were conned, why can't we live with it? Someone passed through our lives and we were burned. Maybe our love was a rare gift to them even though they exploited and wasted it. Allright. We happened to act selflessly once and it was exploited. Can't we come at a point where we can say phew, and smile? And feel strong for being able to love selflessly even if for a period? I'm not saying this to invalidate anyone's hurt. I'm not saying it because I don't feel the hurt. We are all entitled to our feelings, all the time actually, even when they are not fair to the other person. But there are other people who are able to react in some other ways. We don't have to be them, we are not them. But I believe these alternatives  are very valuable because they show us something about our own egos. I believe that's where healing begins.

Addicts and co-dependents practice gratefulness also. This is because they are used to the victim mode. We then learn to think in other ways. (Because we are stubborn, it's almost like homework in the beginning, we say it hatingly). Maybe this is the paradox of the addict, to learn to be grateful despite an initially s*hitty life. And life gets better.

So,

I'm grateful that this relationship ended despite I'm suffering because worse things may have happened in the long run. It seems that I could be burned so so so badly. (Some people here have such long-term pain and suffering)

I'm grateful that I managed to keep a roof above my head although it was wrecked. (Some people here lived in tents.)

I'm grateful that I wasn't taken to court after my house was busted by the police because a neighbour said there was a drug thing going on. (Thank you neighbour, really.)

I'm grateful that I still have my camera, my bicycle and the sea so I'll have some free entertainment until my finances get a bit better.

I'm grateful for his extreme craziness because our relationship exploded at a relatively early stage because of this. (What would have happened if he kept the façade for years and then dumped me all of a sudden?)

I'm grateful that I acted with relative dignity and honesty even if it was not reciprocated.

I'm grateful that I could fall in love and take the risk of being injured even if I was injured because taking that risk is a courageous act in itself.

I believe this exercise makes me see my life as a whole and prevents me from black and white, all or nothing thinking that can turn my day into a really bad day. It also nicely kicks the BPD person out of my focus for a while.

Succinct: an insightful and meaningful analysis for me; brave and helpful.

Thanks This world.

This world. Thanks for your description of the addictive nature of these relationships and the insights that come so painfully to many of us.

I busy going through my dark night so I appreciate all the things you are grateful for too.

Hey Troisette, I'm so happy that it helps

Moselle, thank you for your encouraging words. My thoughts are with you