BPDFamily.com

So, one thing that the FIL (wife's dad) said when he came over on Friday night for all the drama.

Not sure if it was a piece of advice for me or just part of a rant.

It was during one of his calmer moments.

"I've been dealing with this stuff all my life.  I figured out a way to live with it and you are going to have to as well"

Not going to try to say that is exact quote, but it's 90%.

Same for my response, probably not exact.  But you get the idea.  Totally an unplanned response but I think it is telling about where my mind is.

I said "No, I will no live with this.  This is not healthy and I will not be involved with it."

Again, probably 90% close to what was really said.

So, the point of this thread, which I will add to here in a little bit as I try to sort out an approach to the current mess, is to try and figure out "big picture" where my head is.  

I get it that even during our long good stretch that little issues popped up and I can be fine with that.  Use tools and move along.

I'm also certain that "I'm not going back" to the regular silliness that used to go on in my home.

My heart is a stayer, but I'm a realist when it comes to the health/sleep issue.

Anyone that knows my story have an opinion on how long they would let things play out and chalk it up to "moving stress" and change of environment?

I totally get it that can be stressful stuff and we do have a lot going on.  

FF is thinking, trying to not be reactive.

I'm open to reactions to what her Dad said or any of my other musings.

FF

Oh, to me that sounds encouraging. Your FIL may very well not be your "enemy."

If he's of my generation, then he may just be going along with / defending the "old ways" of dealing with family strife.

I don't have any helpful thoughts on how you should respond to your wife's current behavior, but if I were in your shoes at this time I hope I would state my boundaries right now and make them permanent in my mind. You have already endured plenty, and getting off on the right foot in this new location, and with its new cast of characters, sounds like an important move to me.

The "blood is thicker than water" saying comes to mind. Who knows what you wife has been telling her parents? I'm sorry you're having to deal with this. I wonder, had your FIL been  drinking when he took his boxer stance?

He is drinking again.  10-15 years ago he really got into.  Got a DUI, dropped it for a while and appears to be back at it.

My guess is he only drinks as a way to piss off his wife who is a big "moralist".

The comment either had to do with that he learned how to deal with the noise and craziness, or just noise, or just craziness.

I think it may have been noise as I was complaining about tv noise.

My understanding is that his wife cranks the TV to sleep. 

You know, someone else mentioned that the noise thing could be linked or medial or family.  The sister (couple years older) watches way more TV and usually sleeps on couch in all kinds of weird positions.  In general turning of the TV at their houses is weird.

Up until a few years ago we rarely watched TV.  On the farm, you really didn't have time (anyone tell I miss that).  It would be a special time for us to get together, pop in a DVD and watch something and eat popcorn together.  None of this having to ask to turn the TV off thing.

I really can't put my finger on it, but used to people asked in my house if they could watch TV and then at some point it turned into me asking if we could turn it off.   

Anyway, maybe somebody could make heads or tails of this.

FF

FIL being an alcoholic speaks volumes about your wife's FOO. Alcoholic families are full of drama, dysfunction, and enablers. He doesn't drink to piss of his wife. Drinking is what he does, regardless of anyone else.

And being drunk could explain how crazy he was when he came over. I wouldn't try to make much about what anyone says when they are drunk. It might not mean anything to him, and he might not even remember saying it.

I wouldn't put too much energy into making sense out of crazy or drunk. One can't make heads or tails out of someone  when they are drunk.

But having your wife's FOO around could be triggering to her too, especially if there is some enmeshment. I'm not excusing her cruel behavior to you, but there could be some emotional stuff with them.

My BPD mother used to sleep with talk radio on. Somehow it was soothing to her. I think this was her habit throughout my childhood. I was used to sleeping with noise in the background then, but as an adult when I visited her, it was disturbing.

My husband will have the TV on, music in the background and be working on the computer. I cannot handle multiple sources of noise and visual distraction. In fact, I can't even talk when the TV is on, nor can I listen to him. It's one thing at a time for me.

Perhaps this noise thing is related to BPD.

99% positive he wasn't drunk.

I was alcohol counselor for a while in the Navy, I've got a pretty good nose for it.  And I would be shocked if he was an alcoholic, although 100% sure he had an abusive r/s with alcohol for a while.

I've observed him drinking around his wife and it is not enough to do much for him.  My guess is that he barely felt a buzz, but the wife's behavior weird with her nose up in the air, sighing and all kinds of weird stuff to show disapproval.

Her FOO is not very direct about anything, until they dysregulate.  Then all kinds of weird stuff pops out.

FF

What FIL said was meaningless. He is minimizing the importance of sleep to you. He may have said it hoping you can find a way to suck it up so the drama will stop.

Notwendy brought up something else. Do you think having her family (or yours) closeby again could be triggering her? Lord knows my family makes me batty! If all of a sudden, they were all in driving distance I'd be feeling some stress!

He may not have been drunk, but drinking teaches people to react this way, so it could be his entrenched way of playing out frustration.

Consider if he has never been able to "fix" the problems other than blocking them with drink, he may find it invalidating that you think you can deal with it any better than he could... ie ":)ont think you are any better than me... "etc

As far moving having an effect, it probably causes you to want to start again, as in not willing to bring the same emotional baggage with you, hence more desperate to firm up on your boundaries. I went through this early on, and I lost because I knew nothing about it being BPD nor how to address it, so it was futile, but I remember being extra sick because the issues just followed and spoiled the new hope.

Where you and I hear quiet and serenity, pwBPD hear emptiness and void.    My partner listens to either talk radio or the news around the clock.   The louder the better.  It's comfortable for her.  That way the outside world matches her inner world of racing thoughts and loud ideas.

I've spent a lot of time in ACOA groups which focus on the dysfunctional family patterns and they are very similar to households where a member has BPD and it seems that there are frequently both in a family.

So, it isn't just the alcohol but the dynamics in them.

These family roles are very ingrained and it is hard to break the pattern, particularly as a child of the parents in them. No matter how old the child, or if the child has changed, it is the parents who set the pattern- before that child is born, and perpetuate it.

I observed this when I visited my parents. Even if I had changed, they continued the pattern that worked for them, even if it was dysfunctional. This is how they related to me. It takes a long time and consistency to change that pattern, and like any relationship, the change is with us. But then, the effort also can result in extinction bursts and other difficulties. The effort is worth it in the long run if it is a day to day relationship, but for short visits, at intervals, there are pros and cons. So, the tendency in all of us, is to revert back to our family roles when we are with our FOO, unless we make efforts to change.

It's pretty obvious that visiting my parents, and now my mother, stresses me out. Less than before, but still because while I have changed, I have not been around her on a daily basis and she relates to me in the same way she always has. Being aware of this, I take steps to self care so that I am not as irritable when I return to my family. My H is not as interested in learning about these kinds of patterns so he doesn't think much about this when he visits his FOO. But I have observed him taking his family position when he visits, and they wear him out- which can lead to issues between us after he visits.

We know that there are times when we are not at our best- like being tired, angry, and stressed. The presence of FOO can be a stressor. This isn't to excuse abusive behavior, or mean we shouldn't see our families (unless we choose) but to be aware of the influence they may have.

My partner shares this trait. He cannot cope emotionally with quiet. If stress levels are increasing, mental health destabilising, dysregulation imminent, all noise and activity increases. On the occasions that I have stayed overnight at my mums and he has been not so stable, are times of some particularly bad dysregulations. TV always on CNN or Russia Today 

Then is also using laptop and tablet  simultaneously. And on and on. Like I said before he does use headphones now, but not if dysregulated.

I imagine her dad finds the use of boundaries quite scary, and might believe you are being too harsh with his daughter. Usually in a dysfunctional family, like my own, boundaries don't really get much of a look in. Or the boundaries that there are are made of FOG.

So, there is some contempt and judgment as I write this, but from everything I can observe the boundaries in their family revolve around "don't piss off the queen" (my MIL).  Yet, as we know what it takes to not honk her off is a constantly shifting thing.

Then, from time to time as things shift around the drama triangle people will take "pokes" at the queen (rarely outright defiance), eventually the queen gets tired of getting poked and does something outlandish/harsh to get people back in line.  Then whoever gets brought back in line goes into full victim mode, very publicly and sometimes there will be a passive aggressive act of defiance (if I understand PA correctly, still struggling there) or every once in a while actually flip the queen the bird and direct disobedience.

Direct disobedience results in the queen "being gracious" and understanding in a very public way to those that "are not up to her standards" and she will "forgive" their transgressions. 

For the PA acts of defiance the queen goes into victim mode as she is crushed by the actions of those that have failed her.

Example of a PA act of defiance:  Her only son, the twin of my wife, took out over $50k in debt and took many years going through college.  Actually walked the graduation line but didn't get a diploma because he lacked two credit hours, TWO.  He promised to take the class in some sort of "minimester" right after graduation but didn't do it.  And has never done it.

Apparently if he did it within 10 years he would have gotten the degree.  At about the 9 year point there was a huge press as the queen rallied the family to pressure him into getting his degree.  He didn't budge.

Two credit hours.  That is par for the course.  My wife is the first college graduate of all the cousins, aunts and uncles.  My MIL did go back and get her degree after my wife did and did some adult education for a while. 

I describe the family dynamic as having the amazing ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

The family is littered with stories very similar to the two credit hour thing.

Sigh,

FF

 :) :)

ff you might keep that Two Hours Credit thing in the back of your mind at all times. Just crazy making dynamics that I'm sure loads of us can relate to with our SO's family. I know I can. Made me smile lots though.

Yeah, makes me shake my head, smile, kinda go, whatever.

And you know, I'm fine with it as long as it doesn't keep me awake or otherwise violate my boundaries. 

But, yeah, two hours.  It's painful to think about.

And, lots comes back to kids.  And I suppose that will really be where my next "big" decision lies. 

The idea that I am such a son of a b$tch that I don't deserve to sleep (disabled or not) is so preposterous and so easy to "shine the light on" that it will quickly collapse. 

I don't need to attack, persecute or any of that.  Just shine the light and label it.

In a different thread GK talked about parental alienation and I will put "example" next to that as well.  Kids will usually emulate what they saw growing up. 

Consider the following value:  I understand that I will likely never have a perfect marriage and that with my wife being an INFP and me being an ESTJ we will likely always be at odds about emotions versus facts.  She is welcome to whatever feelings she has and I may "think" about whatever I like. 

Value: I will live in an emotionally healthy household (as generally determined by family therapists, respected periodicals, etc etc) or I will separate and create a separate household that operates in an emotionally healthy way. 

I realize that with unusual stresses that there may be blips.  A weird night, perhaps even a weird weekend.   A passing storm that blows through.  I won't give her this number, but lets say 90% of my life will be "emotionally health" with the rest being blips that I use tools for.  I'm not going back to the crazy train.

FF

I can really relate and understand not going back to that way of living. I wouldn't stay either if for me there was any suggestion that my h started to become dysregulated as he was before.

I went to see a L, I know what I will do in order to leave. He gave me fantastic advice that took a lot of the fear away. I have put contingencies in place over the last year so that I know me and our son will be ok.

However I am still wrong footed by a dysregulation, almost like the calm times stupifies me, so I'm still almost only able to make knee jerk extreme all or nothing responses. Despite all I have learnt here.

So I have to live differently in the calm times too, knowing that dysregulation will come. That Staying makes that a fact of my life, but not in the way that brought me here.

Yep, I know it won't be perfect.  I feel very comfortable now discussing "emotionally healthy" ways of doing things.  So, during the "normal" times I look to give myselfs "workouts" and education to build up those muscles (so to speak) so that when a blip shows up, I (and hopefully we) are prepared.

Especially with all the FOO around, I'm going to have to be strong yet also need to be careful to not take it overboard.  If something presents itself I will act and speak up, but I won't go looking for trouble.  I'm not the type to avoid trouble either.

It's going to be interesting to see how the SIL's involvement and FIL will play out.   During the  sleep deprivation episodes I addressed each of them, by name and asked if they were ok with their actions and decisions and that it was not acceptable for them to participate in depriving me of sleep.

SIL said "I'm not getting in the middle of this and continued to watch the TV".  FIL blathered on about that I needed to let people "live".

I'm not going to ignore this and pretend it never happened, I'm also not going to chase them around looking for apology.  Note:  I'm not aware that SIL has ever said she is sorry to anyone.      FIL usually says sorry while trying to blow something off as no big deal.

A multi-weekend effort by a family to not let me sleep is a big deal to me.

FF

There are many trains coming down the tracks, when the crazy train approaches the station sit back and wait for the next one. Dont try to flag it down, it only parks itself in your station.

FOOs trains are running on a different track, just dont go to that platform they are not going your way.


Be careful you dont create a Cold War type environment whereby defensive walls and boundaries have a duel purpose of defense and intimidation. "I wont fire first" but telegraphing your response if you are threatened. This feeds passive aggression that is part of any rebellion with all the hidden resentment that festers with it

 

WR,

Interesting point.  So, how do you see that playing out if they magically pop up one day like everything is normal.

What is the "healthy" response?

The dad is an ok guy, I don't mind talking to him.  Most that comes out of his mouth is bluster that he never acts on.  He is "thinking" about doing lots of things, rarely does much.

SIL, is toxic woman.  Was worse than my wife.  I would actually be happy if this drives a wedge between us.  Always felt like I was pretending before.

FF

Let it. If you are cool with that. She's not one of your monkeys to tame.

I often visualize it as someone just farted in the room, open the window and let it blow away, no point calling people to account, you are not going to change their personality, its hard enough handling your wife's behavior let alone someone you have even less influence over.

The less energy you spend on it, the less it disturbs you."

My wifes FOOs is a hotbed of triangulation and finger pointing with a veneer of 'appropriate behavior" laid over the top, so no one openly says anything nasty. But its the same thoughts and same actions. Covering it up with "respectful' behavior doesn't change anything, its probably even worse as you always suspect people of not being genuine.

Are you going to address the family conference that happened when she was mad?  Personally, I think you need to sit the kids down and say something like the following:

You believe that if mom and dad have a problem, then it is something that should be kept between mom and dad.  You won't personally be involving them with any disputes that you have with mom nor tell them that mom is a bad person.  If mom does that you, they do not have to choose sides.  If they want, they can talk to you about anything that she says that you have done.

My fear is that if you do nothing, she will manipulate the kids against you - at least some of them, especially the younger ones.

 

Fian,

Likely this is going on at the moment.

Need to change the dynamic, somehow, very quickly.

Basically the iron fist of control over kids has come down.  Monday I got a text saying her parents would pick them up at bus stop.  I texted back that I would like to discuss arrangements ahead of time and was open to compromise.  No response.  I didn't want to add energy and create conflict by having a standoff at the bus stop with grandparents ordering kids into their van and me offering kids to come home.

Tuesday (yesterday).  No communication about kids.  I didn't reach out to her.  I was interested in seeing if there was supposed to be a new "default".  Apparently so.  With no communication the kids did not walk home from bus stop but went to their grandparents house (her parents a few blocks away).  I did not witness the bus stop, so no idea if they walked or were picked up.

They get brought home about 830 845.  Bundled through the door up the stairs for teeth brushing and getting shoved in bed.  Last night she apparently slept in bed with smaller ones.  Everyone is still asleep with 2 hour delay.

The child S15 that got called in to "testify" against me treats me like I have the plague for the few minutes I have been around him. 

So, what do I do today?

Do tell or ask my wife kids need to come home today after school?  Do I just go to bus stop and get kids (risking confrontation with FIL)

I should be hearing back from L office today about when I can stop in for first consultation.

Sigh,

FF

ff do you have MC set up here? My sense is that at the moment it might help things not escalate if you have a neutral objective professional overseeing these issues.

We have both submitted our forms to the MC place and are waiting for an appointment. 

This morning she was full of contempt and said she would not speak to me until we had MC.  Until the she will be doing what she wants and I should do what I need to take care of myself, until she can get me the help I need.

That my controlling attitude has brought us to this point. 

I will try to get an idea of how long this will be from MC.  I am not willing to wait long before establishing some sort of order.

It is obvious that twisted thinking is in full bloom. 

I know I have the tools to work through this, I don't know if working through this is right thing, or best thing.

Sigh. 

FF

So, the "only" place that she will go says that it will be several weeks before they can get us in.

I asked if they offer a neutral third party in the room so life can be coordinated between now and then, unfortunately the answer is no.

FF

ff you absolutely you do have the tools. Remember this situation is fraught with additional stressors, red flags, you name it for all concerned.

Your sleep is still your number 1 priority so ensuring that is maintained may trump the domestic situation in the shrt term.

I remember when we moved, my h was soo brittle and given to dysregulation that I just eased back on many things once I realised he could not cope. It took quite a while to find a rhythm again, but we got there eventually.

Can you let the stuff go with the kids for a while, at least until you're in MC? Sounds like her need to feel some control at the moment will be extending to them if you view them as extensions of her, rather than separate from her. I would view her need to control as symptomatic of how difficult she is finding things.

There is a huge positive in her comment about MC that she has this in her sights as a place of eventual conflict resolution. I understand that this probably means different things to both of you. *)

So to me for now it's about finding a balance about what can you reasonably leave for the next few weeks and where you need to invest your energies most effectively.

 

Sweetheart,

Very wise counsel.

Waiting sucks, it's hard.  Do I step aside and her run the kids and badmouth me for several weeks? Of course it could be over tomorrow.

One reason I am thinking of acting (on what, I don't know).  She usually has responded well to me acting from a position of strength, rather than being a doormat. 

However, most of that is personal boundary stuff instead of control of kids or things like that.

I probably shouldn't let my mind wander too much until I speak with L and figure out what are actual options.

She flips from being nasty to me to being "singsongy" happy with kids.  Is in other room now asking kids if they would think it wonderful to spend the weekend making their own pasta and grinding their own flour.  Never, ever done that before.

FF

Yes, waiting is hard. It does suck.

Do you "let her" run the kids and badmouth me? No, the question to ask is can you "stop her"? And if you can, is the cost of doing that more than surviving a few weeks in the current situation?

ff it might help you a bit if you think about it like this... .

She is psychologically defending herself against all the current difficulties and stresses by as you know splitting you bad/black. The children/her FOO all good/white. She cannot do it any other way at the moment. The split is her way of externalising her feelings and keeping herself safe  whilst she learns to navigate this new part of her life.

You can help her with this by validating how difficult things are at the moment when she bad mouths you. Think about everything she says and does with you at the moment as a way of letting you know how hard this adjustment is for her. The reason you are the one who is split black is because she knows that you are strong enough to manage to hold this for her without falling to pieces.

So for you it will be about keeping and maintaining the status quo whilst you are waiting. And waiting will be important here, because if IMO if you rush this it will go nuclear v quickly all the warning sins are in allignment.

I remember when my h got like this, I made it worse for him by rushing it, so he couldn't get back to his emotional baseline. A friend of mine who is a dog behaviourist, said this is called 'trigger stacking' and when this happens to an animal the only inevitable response is all out attack. My h's response to being triggered stacked was catastrophic. So be cautious because I can hear how important your marriage and family is to you.

It is about playing the long game whilst using all the tools at your disposal to maintain the peace and calm.

See your L, you have MC planned, let the kids schedule go in the short term, create a validating environment and post here if you feeling triggered into reacting.

Who can you talk to for support at the moment, do you have a pastor, your own T ( if not may I strongly suggest this be something you consider )

With all the weirdness,  I would recommend that you make sure that you are authorized to pick up the kids. You don't want to be in a situation where she is the only one who controls that, for the kids' sake.  Also with the history of inappropriate physical discipline,  you might consider a safety plan that includes the kids. The older ones should know that boundary violations are not okay,  especially ones that involve basic needs.

What wise counsel from sweetheart. |iiii

I think you are indeed acting from a position of strength if you follow the approach she suggests.

You have already set the foundation for a future here at your new state, haven't you? Eight children are eligible for unique higher education benefits here. Your parents now own a family sized home here. I think they have indicated that they want to move nearer you and their grandkids at some point. Your wife's family is here too should she need their support if the family does split. That's a lot of logistical ground covered.

You made these moves in a spirit of optimism about your wife's mental health, I think. But they are still practical, solid moves.

It's gotta be tough to hang on in this crazy situation, but you are the key to its resolution, one way or another. Keep getting that sleep and exercise we all need.

Hi FF

Ive not read all the replies but something has me curious. Would you say her mom or dad may have BPD? Your quote of his response seemed like "welcome to my world". It may be that he is going through and has been with your MIL exactly what your going through with his daughter.

Exactly, "welcome to my world"

And my clear answer is and was "I will not get used to it"

Not sure what all that means but my overriding thought/message is "I'm not going back"

FF

Your wife tried to manipulate you, with the help of your children and others, by not allowing you to sleep.  You stood your ground so she has let go of that, for now.   

Now she is manipulating you by keeping the children from being around you and poisoning them against you.  This is working for her, so far. 

Someone suggested sitting down with the kids and telling them this is NOT ok.  They are your children and you have the right to speak to them and tell them you do not want them involved in problems you and your wife have with each other.  I see your wife flipping out if you try to do this, but that's on her.  You really, really need to speak to your children. 

 

Yes, verbena.  Absolutely correct.

I am going to pick them up at bus stop today.  Bring them home and cook dinner with them.  Wife said she would be home for dinner at 6.  Nothing special.  We were not able to have a civil conversation to figure out who was picking up who or who she was bringing home, but SHE agreed to be here at 6. 

Was kind weird when I was pinning her down.

Anyway, her parents will likely try to pick them up.  I will be ready with recorder in my pocket and certainly won't make a scene, but will stand my ground that kids are coming with me. 

Will talk to them when we get home.

Wish me luck.

other updates that make me feel better.  I spoke for a while on the phone with my new T.  Seems ok.  Appointment set for next week.

Appointment set to speak with L.  Initial reaction to the guy is positive as well. 

Spent a lot of time on the phone today and looking around don't feel like I got much done.  I did get to store and get some stuff I needed.

Anyone else have any ideas of things I should be doing now.  MC won't be able to get us in for "several weeks", it's the only place she is saying she will go.  "Biblical counseling" is what she wants.  They are heavy on accountability (we have both been to training classes) so I'm not sure what her angle is there.

FF

So let's be clear about what will happen.  You have 2 paths:

1.  Let the issue with the kids slide.  This will take fuel off the fire, however you may suffer long term effects of being demonized (even giving a speech doesn't guarantee that she won't successfully demonize you).  You might be able to talk to the kids later if things die down, but even then you would be disturbing the peace and signing up for more dysregulation.

2.  You contest her wishes and pick the kids up and give a speech to them.  This will be adding a lot of fuel to the fire, and there may be very serious repercussions, potentially all the way up to divorce since every single issue seems to lead in that direction right now.  On the positive, she already views you with contempt - it is unlikely this can cause more, but a show of strength might cause her to have some respect.  I think this outcome is unlikely, though.

I can't tell you what is right, but I think it is important to consider both options and what you can live with.

My uBPDw and I went to our church counselor early in our marriage. I had never been to any sort of counseling (quite honestly, I didn't want to go) but overall, I found it helped our marriage. The issue for me was that the counselor seemed to focus on making sure I did this and that I did that to improve our marriage. I felt that my W intimated the counselor with her anger and so the counselor focused on me to change our relationship. Also, I didn't always feel heard. The focus for most of the session was on my W getting her points and issues resolved and when I tried to say something, the counselor would tell me to hold on, let her finish. I many times left those sessions frustrated. It helped our marriage in that my wife felt heard and got the chance to unload on me. However, when I spoke to the counselor about my feelings and the counselor began challenging my W more, it was game over. My W decided that we didn't need counseling anymore.

So, all of that to say to make sure you get your say as well. I'm not sure what type of credentials the counselor has, but make sure you get to participate as well.

When I was looking for a therapist a few months ago, my W insisted that he be a Christian. She later told me that her fear with a non christian counselor was that they were quick to suggest separation or divorce. I took that as her fears of abandonment. Maybe your W has the same fear?

Focus on getting your sleep and enforce your healthy boundaries. You have this saying that has helped me when I'm confronted with a full blown dysregulation or rage, "Slow it down." Or something like that. It reminds me to be mindful of the moment and not to react without thinking. Remember to slow it down these next two weeks and disengage emotionally as best as you can.

Poof, the other wife is back.

Will update more later.

FF

 

So, obviously a good turn of events.  Thinking of the Waverider analogy of a passing storm.  This one was way longer than I care to go through again.  Like a long hurricane.

It started with the bus stop  I go down there and wait, bus pulls up and and MIL is behind it.  Kids (S7 and D10) hopped off and looked at me and looked at MIL.  They stood still.  I said "hop in we are going home".  MIL looks around and says to kids "go on with your daddy", she hopped in the car and left.  I went home and had a great time with kids.

We put away huge stacks of clothes together while talking and cutting up.  My wife usually gets back in the area from her job about 15-20 minutes after these kids get off work.  Lately she and other kids have been spending all their time at granparents house and then showing up here just in time for bed.  Well, I should have thought of this, but my wife and S15 coming stomping and storming into the house (no words, but heavy footsteps and slamming doors).  I hollered downstairs and asked if is was S13 (pretty sure it wasn't) and my wife in "reasonable to little excited voice" says "it's me".  I said something like "hey, hope you had a good day"  (no response.) some stomping around, closet doors opening and closing and a thump as they went out front door.

I spent another few hours together with S7 and D10.  All clothes put away and then we had a great time putting away food I had bought and making dinner.  Wife had "told" me that morning to cook the shrimp I bought.  (come one, anyone really think I am going to type here that I cooked the shrimp).   Some hamburger buns and hotdog buns were needing to be used so I cooked up the remaining hotdogs we had and some burgers.  Made chili and other fixins for dogs and burgers, green beans, corn and mac and cheese (eaten in large quantities in this house).

To my wife's credit, she showed up with rest of clan at 10 till 6.  (we had agreed on 6).  Shockingly nice, reasonable, "normal" woman showed up.  I asked her for a couple tips on how she made the beans and corn so good (I already knew).  She told me.  I asked if she could help out a bit (as I was still working on the grill) and make the beans and corn taste good (they were hot and steaming in pot, but I hadn't seasoned yet).  She said sure, jumped in and did it.

We had a great relaxed dinner together as a family.  Oh, "tactics" on the meal thing.  First, about zero chance I could ever "outcook" my wife.  Not gonna happen.  Second, I'm not stupid enough to try or make it seem that way.

Well, as dinner ended I asked D7 if her homework was done.  Yep.  I asked my wife is it would interfere with any of her plans if my Mom came over to practice piano with D7.  (mom is retired piano professor and D7's personality lends itself to a powerful "stage presence".  She is good piano player for her age).  Wife said that would work fine.

Wife hops up, does dishes, I helped out and evening went great.   Later in the evening I did some cleaning in our bathroom.  After kids were in bed I said "There is a clean tub (big jetted thing), the smell of pinesol and a naked FF will be in the tub"   

After all the activity was over I was asleep quickly.  She was messing around on her phone before I went to sleep.  I woke up to empty bed, she was sleeping upstairs with girls.  I didn't say anything about it.

Big kid victory (feel good moment) for me, when I took S7 and D10 to the bus this morning, D10 was all excited asking what we were going to do after school.  I said, "I don't know, what do you want to do"  Building snowmen was the top choice so that is what is promised when they get home today.

D10 and I don't talk about it anymore, but she was the one that I stood in front of to stop my wife with belt. (cps issue couple summers ago). 

Don't worry, I know nothing is fixed.  Just this issue is over.  Before she left for work I gave her smooch and said "Hey, if I get up the gumption to try and grill shrimp, what would you like with it"  She tossed out some ideas.  I said no promises but something will be ready at 6.  Also told (didn't ask) her I would get S7 and D10 at bus stop and build snowmen.

FF

So why do you think that your wife didn't escalate when you forced the school pickup?  Also, did you decide to defer having a talk with your kids about mom/dad issues?

At the risk of sounding very invalidating, what is it that you find so objectionable about what your FIL said?  I'm just not clear on why you said that's never going to happen.

It will get better (treatment or whatever) or we will split. 

FIL (in my opinion) has been pushed around by his BPDish wife for all his marriage.  I think she is the reason my wife is the way she is.

Good question though, I wasn't clear earlier.

FF

Who knows why she backed down.  Weird too, like flipping a light switch almost.  I've seen that before.

Yes, deferred talk.  Wanted to put a couple positive days behind us (about to go build snowmen) and then have an "oh by the way" talk. 

I'm not one of those parents that sits kids down and says "now kids, this is serious and the lays it on them".

I chat a while, make sure in good mood.  Say the important thing.  Be there for questions and move along.  Will usually check back in later to see if they have more questions.

FF

That sounds like a good plan.

What do you think will be your message to the kids, formflier?

My childhood experience makes me deeply appreciate something livednlearned recently wrote. I think the following is a pretty exact representation:

She said she used to say to her son, "Your father loves you; he had a bad childhood."

Now she wishes she had said, "Your father is mentally ill; your father is drunk."

I think my mom was already pretty brave back in the way-back day when she was saying something like the first thing. But I think if I had ever heard the second thing at any time in my pre-teen childhood, it would have made a big difference.

I know your wife is not drunk, and I suspect you don't want to say anything about mental illness. What kind of things do you think you can say to reassure the kids and validate their experience? Tell them it's OK to feel sad? To feel scared? Tell them that anyone would be upset by some things that have happened recently?

Can you tell them that things will be different going forward? (Or maybe you can't promise that.)

Have you discussed the particular issue of what your kids are likely experiencing with a counselor of your own? Would it be worth working out some messages to give the kids with a professional at some point?

This is the hill I would personally keep fighting on. I know it's important to you too. 

Sounds like you've managed the latest stuff with your wife... .good job!

You asked about this... .


Let me start with the context I believe we've already got here... .

... .FIL has prior issues with alcoholism (and is at least functioning well today in that regard, if not better still)

... .MIL runs the house (and in ways that sound eerily similar to FF wife's methods)

... .SIL is even more messed up/toxic to be around than either your wife or MIL.

I'd like to present the face-value translation of what your FIL said given that context.

"I've not got good enough tools to do a f***ing thing about this besides wait for it to pass."

You have more resources than he does. (Starting right here!) You aren't willing to accept that.

You do have to accept that dysfunctional games will be attempted. However you can work on your response and protecting yourself (and your children) better. Keep working at it!

BTW... .just because things have gotten better I wouldn't recommend you set aside your plans to consult a lawyer. Knowing your rights, knowing a bit about legal strategies, etc. is all good stuff to have in your back pocket. I hope you never need to use any of it.

I like this question.

I'd add one area that you *probably* don't need a reminder of.

Your kids already know too much about how to play their mom against you... .don't tell them anything that will encourage that sort of thing.

I think this is exactly what FIL said. :) It's kind of what we all used to say in the days before resources like bpdfamily.

I see.  I had thought that his advice pertained to you choosing to remain in the relationship, but it seems that he was more telling you to resign yourself to unacceptable behavior.  I didn't realize you were undecided about staying.  I do think he's right, however, that if you want to stay that you are going to have to accept.  The biggest problem I see in relationships on the Leaving board is the pattern of refusing to accept our partner as they are.  So many times we are angry that our partner isn't who we want them to be (someone without BPD).  It's a difficult decision, but if we decide that we love our partner and want to be with them, then we have to take them as they are.

thank you cosmonaut, one of the better things I have read lately.   rings all sorts of bells for me personally.

my partner has a mental illness.  I am never NOT going to have some aspect of that in my life.  I get in deep doo doo really quickly when I start down the path of 'in a normal relationship I shouldn't have too... .'.   I chose to have a relationship with some one who requires different communication skills,  a higher level of validation, more stability and security.     being in that relationship requires me to have a higher level of self care, self awareness, and both internal and external boundaries.    I am not a victim.   my partner is not ~doing~ anything to me.   being in my relationship means, expecting bumps in the road, planning for them and when they occur, not being judgmental about them.

Mods, want to break this out a separate, "messages to kids about conflict" thread?  Getting close to full on this thread.



I'm going to break up my replies.  So, in this one, I'll deal with kids.  I've got 8.  They are all at different places, ages and ability to process.

S15:  Seems the most pissed/avoidant of me.  I suspect is embarrased that this happened in front of cousins and worried his family will end up like theirs.  The oldest cousin is likely a scratch, one messed up kid.  Has figured out the system, manipulates counselors, parents, school officials against each other.  At his age when things were nuclear between his parents, well, he remembers all of it.  He is 17.  15 year old remembers some, will likely turn out better, but I suspect will act like an adolescent well into his 20s and perhaps later.  There is hope for niece 13 who remembers little of the bad stuff.  

Anyway, sorry back to my main points.  S15 is avoidant.  I speak and I'm friendly but I don't push it.  Mommy seemed to grab him as substitute hubby/henchman and he has been the one that has been forced into "testifying" the most against me.  Sigh, I suspect this will be day 1 issue in MC.  Not sure that can be dealt with without a trained person in room.  Note:  I doubt it gets solved on day one.  We have solved it many times before, my wife knows and has heard it is bad.  

S13 is warmer towards me.  Conversations are easy.  Suspect we'll have conversation over the weekend.  I won't have full on appointment with T until next week.  Not sure I want to wait that long.

D10.  R/s is back to normal or closer than ever.  She seems to be pushing to hang with me.

S7.  Seems to be pushing to hang with me or do his own thing.  This boy has more energy than any male child I have ever seen.  If it can be carefully directed, he will accomplish amazing things.  I've raised three boys by time he came along.  Figured anything that could be climbed, destroyed, dismantled etc etc, well, I figured I has seen it all.  Nope, he brought some serious new game.

D5 and D2.5 (3 in march) seem to be doing well and spend time with Daddy.  I got a complete medical exam last nigh from the "nurses", complete with instructions to be still while getting "shots".  I suspect I won't say anything to them until I get professional advice.

College kids S20 and D18 I maintain text and phone contact.  Won't address this issue with them, until I see them in person, or a major change.

I suspect a trigger in all this trigger stacking is D18 is going to skip some college classes in Feb, come home and have a growth removed from her breast.  99.9% sure is is non-cancerous through biopsies.  100% sure it will continue to grow and grow fast.  Likely a genetic thing I passed on to her.  I've had some lovely chunkies cut out of me.  Luckily all non-cancerous.

Ok, I get it that FF is biased Dad here, but when college photographers are seeking out your daughter to put in brochures and posters, well, I think the rest of the world thinks she is gorgeous as well.  When we go to horse shows, lots of young men in boots and big buckles appear out of nowhere to "help me", sigh.  

Luckily she sill seems to have a sense of humility about who she is.  I get it that we all use our imaginations to figure out what each other are really like.  She is an 18 year old Cat Familiar.  No doubt that she would hop out of car and finish off a deer regardless of what she is wearing, no doubt.

Anyway, goal of surgery is to get this thing out and preserve all the milk ducts and hopefully not damage appearance of breast too much.  We think we have found the right surgeon, lots of experience in just this thing.

I guess I'll circle back around to say that I have goal of initial talk (mention and listen) with S13, D10 and S7 this weekend.  Will get each by themselves, maybe go get some chicken nuggets, who knows.

Will sweeten up the message after meeting with my T.

FF

I think there is some important nuance here (I am a stayer).  I've decided and held firm to several things (about my boundaries and what I will and won't accept) over time and sleep deprivation is another one I am now crystal clear on.  

Offhand, spanking is another.  (the CPS drama).  I've seen other posters on here mention it is more important to focus on the actions of a pwBPD than their words.  My wife will still mention that other kids need to be spanked, she has never mentioned ours again.  I suspect it could be baiting for a fight.  I don't engage.  My attitude is that my wife can talk about it, want to do it all she wants.  That's her business and I shouldn't try to control her thoughts and words.  She knows that I will "die on that hill" and has chosen to take her fights elsewhere.  I'm good with that.

With my medical conditions/disabilities in their current state, I can't afford to have sleep be a battlefield.  I will lose that fight.  Note:  There is a difference in an inconsiderate person, that lowers volume or takes corrective action and one that uses sleep/noise as a weapon.  If this becomes a regular pattern she has to go live somewhere else, end of story.  Note:  I don't think it will come to that, but I am in the process of preparing.  

I've had conversations recently with the family T that did so much good for our family.  He, like many of you said she responds well to positions of strength and when she perceives me being wimpy it fuels her fire.  He suspects that she is looking for strength in her husband that she didn't get from her father (who didn't protect her from her mom).  When she shows me contempt she is "really" showing contempt for her father for being a wuss, but can't express that in a "normal" way.

I didn't know where my lineman pliers were (still hoping to find them today in my unpacking of garage/shop) but I will keep a pair handy (and hidden).  The plan I worked out with family T was for me to get myself to a place of serenity and "businesslike" approach.  If TV is used as a weapon again, walk out and properly ask for relief/quiet.  If I get "flipped the bird" again.  To calmly say, "You go somewhere else to watch TV", snip the power cord, and go back to bed.

He stressed over an over that it was important for me to be "un emotional" while doing this and to let her sort out her own reactions to this.

Basically, he is telling me to show more strength, but only when I can "control it"

FF

Keep reminders and questions coming.  All of you.  I really appreciate it.

L meeting will go forward, regardless of what happens or how good it gets.  I had conversation with his secretary (after getting referred to him from my legal plan) and first consult is free (because of legal plan) and he will have recommendations and options for me (with associated costs).

I suspect my short term focus would be on being prepared for legal separation with child custody in the event of "kid grabs" or other strong arm tactics.  Likelihood that I would ever file for divorce as an "opening move" are extremely low.  I don't want to be divorced. 

T meeting will go forward and from talk on phone will likely proceed weekly through "intake" and many sessions so we can get to know each other and be up to speed.  I am so thankful that I have established Ts and pastors that are available via phone, but I'm also aware there is no substitute for sitting in someones office.

FF