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Communication help

If my relationship makes it out of the waiting period it's going to have  a backlog of issues to deal with.

The most pressing one is around communication because I am burnt out.

We have a long standing issue in our relationship where my partner doesn't feel valued by me except for his contribution to my daughter, no matter what I tell him.

We had a similar issue years ago where he felt devalued by me despite what my therapist said. He would not see that even though he felt devalued didn't mean I was actually devaluing him.

I don't know if I have what it takes to be the partner of someone with an untreated personality disorder again.

My partner will not listen to me that his issues are getting in the way of him hearing me.

I wonder if it is worth the effort.

It is certainly valid to feel burnt out from trying to get someone to hear and believe you, when they simply cannot.  Certainly good communication is a great way to bond and feel connected to another and it is frustrating, feels distancing when communication is problematic.

Can you clarify what you are wanting out of this thread?

Part of me wonders if you are mulling around thoughts of analyzing what direction to take the relationship.

Another part of me wonders if you are seeking help learning/practicing communication skills.

In any event, it sounds like you are considering your needs and trying to see if they are being satisfied in this relationship... .and how that matches up.

How can we help?

It is both.

I had asked my partner to write an email expressing his concerns that I could take to my therapist.

He wrote two sentences and they were about an old issue, an issue I had already covered in therapy years ago.

Basically he thinks his feelings are facts, whether that's he feels devalued by me, or he doesn't feel married to his wife or he thinks I only value him for his contribution to my daughter.

It doesn't matter what I tell him.

I have run out of patience.

I don't feel like being kind, compassionate, understanding.

I have read a bit around here.  It seems the typical advice when feeling like being kind to your SO feels difficult then: Take a step back for your own self care.

I recall you trying to take some space from your partner and at one point you were starting to miss him and felt that the space was working.  Do you think you can take some more space than you have currently?

This can help you to think more clearly and focus on your thoughts and thinking that you need to mull over such ideas as whether or not this relationship is right for you.

While I was attending MC, the MC gave us advice that really relieved me.  He told us that we did not need to decide today if we were going to continue the relationship or go separate ways.  He actually said that the answer would reveal itself naturally in the coming year or sooner. Hearing from MC that I did not have to decide in any specific direction, for even a year, and even then did not really have to decide but 'it would be clear'... .really was a huge huge relief to me.

While I do not suspect that you two are receiving MC, it may be possible the same is true for your circumstance.  I think it is possible that if you continue your own T or your own personal growth and take space as you need for self reflection independent of him... .that the answer will become more clear to you.

What gets tricky though is if you continue to engage to a point of wearing yourself out and becoming frustrated.  ... .If you have a lot of frustration, then it is hard to think and feel clearly and hard to separate the feelings of frustration from your partner. 

Are you finding it difficult to balance engaging with your SO vs taking enough space?

Sunflower wrote
I had my first session with my new T today.

I'm on p.56 of keeping the love you find.

Sunflower wrote
yes, until today. This morning when my partner called I was actually able to tell him I didn't feel like talking and he said ok. Later he said he wished he had known that earlier as he didn't take some calls because he was expecting to hear from me. I had told him I would call him at 9:30 but that's before I read his email. I told him next time he should just take those calls.

Hopefully things went well with the new T?  Did you get a good feel that this is someone you think you can work with?


That sounds perfect.  It sounds like he tried to lay some "O" "G" on you but you didn't pick it up.  Instead you redirected him to his responsibility. (Where it belongs) Do you feel ok with this?  Do you usually do this or do you think more of this would be helpful?

Sunflower wrote


Absolutely.

That was the first time I did that so obviously more of that would be helpful! :)

Ty for pointing out the o and the g to me. That was very helpful and useful. I knew what that meant . I think it would probably be good for me to review the article on emotional manipulation. I learned in DBT today that another person can cause an interpersonal crisis to avoid dealing with their feelings so I want to make sure my partner doesn't pull me into that.

Oops missed this part


Yes they did. She's one of the DBT facilitators and she did my intake interview so I've already been working with her on a group level for 2 months.

I think she can help me develop the kindness towards my partner I'm going to need if I want to continue on in a relationship with him.

Hi unicorn2014 - haven't talked to you for long. Is this the same guy - lying about divorce, etc?

Regarding the above:

It's not so much that you have to have what it takes, that you have to be able to give continuously and never get anything in return. You don't even have to give much, you just have to understand that you will never, ever, _ever_ be able to demand he give anything back to you - just like a mother cannot demand anything from her infant (remember the infant metaphores we used?).

This is by no means an attack on you as I empathize very much with your situation, but just give it a thought for a couple of seconds:

"My 6 month old infant will not listen to me that his issues are getting in the way of him hearing me."

It makes no sense, and people would rather wonder what kind of a mother says something like that. The situation is very much the same her, except that the infant has an adult's body. As a mother, you don't reason with your infant - you correct bad behavior and you teach good behavior by being bigger than his bad behavior and sticking to what you know is right, accepting that he will learn it from you. This also ties into why one uses the term "reparenting" when talking about correcting PDs - it's in essence what needs to be done. As long as you are his mother - his therapist - you cannot be his lover in any healthy way. He needs a "therapeutic room" - a room (home, garden, whatever) of trust, very little demands, just the right amount of his therapist carrying his projections and emotions for him, etc. Is this something you are ready to do?

Is it worth the effort? Keep in mind that, after a few years of reparenting - in the absolutely exceptional case that he turns into a healthy man - he might not even be into you anymore, and you might not even be into him. He's not going to be the same person after that. And neither will you - you might very well end up being suicidal during the journey. Even therapists with decades of experience have enormous trouble handling pwBPD.

This is with your best in mind: I think you should shift focus to yourself. You seem to be a very loving, caring and giving person. Is there a reason you're trying to give everything to someone who lies to you? Imagine you two in a movie that you're watching - playing out everything that's happened between you two. A good-looking, caring, loving woman with a man who lies to her, rages, etc. What would you feel? Would you say 'wow, I hope she sticks with him and loves him a bit more, he might turn into a great guy' or would you say ' eh, that woman is crazy, why is she putting up with this when the world is full of good men'? Again, not meaning to attack you, just trying to challenge your way of thinking about this!

Be well!

The best advice I ever received here about building a r/ship with someone wBPD was don't tell him you love him--show him. Act like it.

I would say telling him you don't feel like talking after you made plans to talk and he re-arranges his schedule to do so--first, it's not acting loving. It's acting unpredictable and withholding and retaliatory ("I told him we'd talk but that was before I read his email".

Like Sunflower said, it seems to me you are actually unsure of your feelings for him. Understandable given the deception and lying. But I continue to have a hard time seeing much objectionable about his day to day dealings with you.

I didn't reply on your thread about boundaries because you'd quoted what I already wrote and I thought I'd let others comment next. But to go back to that topic: I think your inconsistency about boundaries is causing unnecessary discomfort and pain. You seem to shift daily what you're willing to do with him and what you're not depending on the smallest of perceived new transgressions. With pwBPD consistency is valuable; and others have written a lot about not managing your understandable resentment through withholding and punishment.

I recommend again that you try to answer the question "what kind of r/ship am I willing to have with a man who has deceived me about his marital status, is not yet divorced, and may not file for divorce?" I don't think you're clear on that yet. If you can answer that, then you can apply appropriate boundaries, be consistent, and I suspect stop being as bothered by the small daily blips, and also, stop hurting him by sudden zigs and zags in what you are willing to do.

P&C I don't have the energy to being holding boundaries for my pwBPD. His words effect me. I don't have the patience to be the unemotional one in the relationship. I wasn't even thinking about the divorce problem yesterday. This is a pure BPD problem. He believes his feelings are facts and there is nothing I can do to change that. Not only that he believes he has the right to tell me his feelings are facts no matter how much it hurts me.

I let the issue go for now because I have to take care of my daughter, but you're right, holding boundaries with him is hard.

I've read your posts about the boundary between partner and non partner.

My partner is very much functioning as coparent.

In fact I told him yesterday that once he is divorced we can look at him being a guardian for my child prior to us getting married.

I need a functional coparent. My daughter has having way too many issues for me to be parenting on my own and her father is definitely not a functional coparent. My partner is. My partner also seems to have a personality disorder.

I will write more about this later and respond to lonely child later  as right now my daughter is sick and I need to take care of her.

Lonely child,

Not getting anything from back from my SO is not my problem.

My SO is working aca with a sponsor and has had some therapy.

In terms of the divorce , he is working on it. That's not what I was upset about. Lying and raging aren't problems at this point.

I will post the two sentence email.

Unicorns partner wrote

I apologize for the piecemeal commentary.

I hear what you are saying so the question is how do I not get myself in that position in the first place.

We often seem to have problems around DBT, either before or after, so perhaps next week I can tell him I'll call him after DBT so we don't have that problem of him expecting a phone call from me. I think I may try that. That way I am not obligated to a morning phone call.


I didn't see that in Sunfl0wer's post, so I'll have to reread it. Its not the deception and lying that bothered me about his email. I'll repost it here so we can address it.


That is absolutely not true, in fact the reason why I sought my partner out is because he is a creative person . I had no idea he would be so compatible with my d15 nor did I have any idea he would end up being my partner. I simply liked his music.

My partner told me the reason he was doing tele psychiatry was to work on his issue of mattering. The very thing that made me seek him out, his musical gifts, is the very thing he does not value in himself. I don't think that's a coincidence. I think that's his core wound.

Furthermore that email reminded me of a problem we had years ago before I knew his divorce hadn't been filed.

Years ago he was convinced I was devaluing him and this upset me so much that i talked to my therapist at the time about it. My therapist told me that my partner's feelings were true for him however that did not mean I was engaging in devaluing behavior.

Fast forward to yesterday's email, its the same problem all over again. Just because my partner feels I only value him for my contribution to my d15 doesn't mean that's true. I told my partner if I just wanted a stepfather for my child I could have picked any sober man who had experience raising daughters. I picked my partner because he is a good match for me. I had no idea he would be temperamentally compatible with my daughter. That was an added bonus.


Yes, but yesterday's resentment was not actually resentment, it was not wanting to go through the whole dog and pony show again about just because he feels something doesn't mean its a fact.


I understand what you are saying, but that is not the problem here. As I mentioned before, we were having this problem before I found out his divorce wasn't filed. He was working on his divorce. He is getting bogged down in intellectual property right issues, that is the complication with his divorce. I don't have a problem with that. I'm not complaining about that.

How do you deal with a person who thinks their feelings are facts and isn't willing to hear otherwise?

I think this is the piece that patient and clear was referencing and if not perhaps she can redirect me.

I know what direction I am taking this relationship. I am waiting for my partner to divorce so we can resume a normal intimate relationship. In the meantime I am absolutely frustrated with this feelings equals facts thing, especially in my INTJ partner who prides himself on his reasonableness.

I think my therapist is going to help me develop more compassion towards my partner.

I understand that my partner's parents didn't support him as a musician other than to provide lessons and he had to make it on his own. I think that's his core wound.

I did explain this to my partner and he did seem to get it however I'm still angry about it.

I hate that my partner won't listen to me when I say you think your feelings are facts and they're not



I hate that argument.

I'm all about tough love, recently I saw an article about that from psych central and having to be gentle is very hard for me.

While I did not intentionally allude to this... .

I do suspect that your emotional mind is in conflict with your logical mind and sparring inside of you regularly.  I suspect that your emotional mind remains driven by a primal attachment desire to your SO, while your logical mind questions the pragmatics of the relationship having sustaining potential for a successful future together.



My sense is this is highly significant.  I suspect your partner's core wound IS likely to be that of 'mattering.'  If so, then it is understandable why he would project to you that you only value him for his contribution for D15.  This is HIS fear.  (Not necessarily YOUR truth).

I recall that you at some point, decided to rely on a parenting hotline vs SO as a boundary.  If 'mattering' is SO core wound AND his perceived value is co-parenting with you... . Then I imagine your withdrawal of allowing him to co-parent was distressing.  I also imagine your promise of him having guardianship may have been quite soothing.

Boundaries, delineate your position on your values... . ... .both to yourself and others.  It is my understanding that firm consistent boundaries are a necessary MUST when in a r/s with PD traits or a full PD.

I suspect that maintaing consistency on boundaries that are related to his core wound would be especially essential in establishing a sense of stability and longevity of this relationship.



Blunt respone: RA

You will likely do best to cope with your feelings about this independent of him. Aka: without your partner's awareness or support.

Edit: While my post has references to topics in the past, and also in the future... .  What I feel is not being given sufficient attention is: the present. 

I think you are right, however I am dealing with my own relationship issues: by reading the book keeping the love you find, then I'm going to read the passionate marriage, and then attached. I also  told my therapist that I wanted to look at my attachment issues.  I took an online quiz that said I had a dismissive attachment style overall, a secure attachment to my partner, and a fearful-avoidant attachment to my parents. I told her I did not put much credence in internet quizzes, but if there was anything we could do in therapy to deal with those issues, I wanted to.


So what do I do with that? I didn't even know he was projecting until you mentioned it.



What i did was call the parental stress line first and my partner second as I did not want my emotions to trigger his emotions. I wasn't so much promising him guardianship as I was recognizing the pragmatic reason for it: my d15 called him to call her in absence when she couldn't reach her father and she knew I was in class.


Yes I understand that and holding up firm consistent boundaries takes a lot of energy especially when I'm simultaneously parenting a 15 year old in crisis.


I will do my best, I need to know how.



So I have to deal with the fact that he thinks his feelings are facts even though he prides himself on his intellectual capacities?

My sense is that if you also suspect that his core wound is 'mattering' than that helps you understand what may guide his motivations and behaviors often. 

If this is correct then... .

He likely feels good when he feels valued. 

He likely feels distraught when his ability to contribute is somehow limited or restricted.

Does that sound somewhat accurate?


I believe that keeping your emotions in check to not trigger your partner is excellent! |iiii

I also suspect this is an emerging thing that you are working on... .hence, even more excellent.  (Please correct me If I am not understanding)


Yet, if it is mostly true about his core wound, you may have unintentionally gave a pull at his heart strings by indicating a future with him that involves d15.

While I recognize it as certainly a positive movement to be quite conscientious of not triggering your SO, I also suspect you have 'moved a boundary' in regards to his involvement in your and your D15's life.  This may complicate and confuse matters.  While it may appear a positive thing today, as he may respond in a positive manner and it also may not appear to be a 'current' issue... .it may bite you and him later on in some (in)direct way... .As consistent boundaries are essential.


I in no way want want to appear 'ganging up on you,' however, it appears that so many whom are reading and following your posts are expressing that you appear to 'move boundaries.'

Do you think there is any validity to this?

I wonder if you think keeping a record of your just your values and boundaries will assist you in some way?  IDK really what would help reaffirm your values/boundaries... .what do you think?


Yup! You got it!   |iiii

Feelings = facts ... .is like some sort of hallmark of this PD stuff.  I have yet to see anyone here CHANGE that in a partner.  It MUST be RA! 

Please anyone correct me if they have an opposing experience with their SO.

Tough stuff here...  

I do  feel compelled to give him a way to contribute, so yes.



It is, last Saturday I realized that if I called my partner when I was triggered that would go nowhere good.



I never said he didn't have a future with me.


No, I didn't move a boundary, the boundary was around our romantic relationship and that is still intact. My partner is ok with being a coparent but not a romantic partner while he is waiting for his divorce to go through.


That's fine, like I said there was never a boundary around parenting, maybe other people were trying to get me to put one there but I didn't. I was actually able to redefine the relationship as a friend while my partner was filing for divorce and he was ok with that.


I think that I have not stated clearly what I am doing so I will do so. I have drawn a boundary around the romantic relationship, that is offline until my partner files for divorce. I have communicated that to him and he is ok with it. We still function as friends and coparents.



I wasn't having a values/boundaries problem yesterday, I was having a feelings are facts problem which really frustrates me because it is such an old issue.


That is my problem and its a big one.

This one jumped out at me, as I think I've seen it before... .


I've also seen you say a lot of things like this... .


Consider that your partner might be right that you only value him as a coparent.

You have said many times that he is a good coparent here.

You've expressed your fatigue, frustration, and exasperation at his other behavior here many times as well.

You might even want to ask yourself if that *IS* the only thing he can do well for you right now. Obviously, this would be an unpleasant and harsh truth... .but if it is either the real situation or how you really feel about the situation, don't pretend otherwise.

Hey Unicorn,

I agree with P&C's post quoted above and I'm worried about you... .If your partner is BPD or has BPD traits, you NEED to have the energy to hold boundaries for him. You NEED to be the "unemotional" one. Anything less will do significant harm to all three of you (including your daughter). His BPD behaviors are not going away.

Do you read other threads around here? Maybe some by the Staying veterans (no pun intended FF  :) ) like Formflier, Babyducks and Waverider? I'd like you to compare a few things... .the problems they describe versus the problems you describe with your pwBPD, their expectations of their pwBPD versus yours, and generally how much trouble they still have sometimes despite their impressive skill at boundaries and control of their own emotional reactions. That's a best case scenario BPD relationship.

Even if we could wave a magic wand and make him divorced tomorrow, I think you'd need to work a LOT on radical acceptance for this to work out. A pwBPD is NEVER going to listen when you say "you think your feelings are facts and they're not." But honestly I don't think many people would listen to that. It's hugely invalidating because even though no one's feelings are facts, they're still very real to that person. And in the context of an intimate relationship, feelings deserve to be heard, respected, and validated.

Not everyone is cut out to be the unemotional one who validates B.S. all day and receives little to no validation in return. I know I'm not (I think you read that link I posted a while ago about authenticity and how bad it feels to force or fake validation?). That said, I also agree with Patientandclear that I'm not seeing many problems in his day-to-day treatment of you. I'm seeing a LOT he's saying that is valid, and deserves for his partner to validate his feelings and adjust their behavior accordingly.

Also worried about your continuing to increase his involvement in your daughter's life, even though reading around here for a while should make it clear that pwBPD are not dependable people. They can't be your rock, or your daughter's rock. You have to be the rock. You often say that he's a great co-parent and you can depend on him to co-parent despite his BPD, but ... .that time your daughter ran away while you two were fighting? Probably would not have happened if he was not involved in her life (or acquainted with her to a degree that would generally be considered appropriate for a long-distance boyfriend). There's one example of his BPD, and/or your difficulty being "the unemotional one," harming your daughter. I'm sure there are more.

I also don't think he's okay with being a coparent but not a romantic partner while the divorce is pending. That contradicts what he's said about only feeling valued when you're talking about your daughter. Maybe he says he's okay with it because he's fearing abandonment and wants to keep some connection with you, but he's clearly not okay with it.

You seem to focus a lot on reading lessons, following steps, reading books, and making the next thread to address the next issue-of-the-day... .None of that is a substitute for in-depth personal reflection on the big picture. In fact I will promise you, the next book you read is NOT going to have the answer. Neither is the book after that. Reading the books and lessons helps, but only if you take the time to think critically about how they apply to your situation.

No its not, I appreciate his insight into other things.

I think right now the whole relationship feels tainted to me because of the circumstances under which it was founded. I don't trust him right now because of everything that has happened before this, but that doesn't mean he isn't a valuable person.

He is a very deep, insightful and spiritual person. I am hoping that when he shows me he has filed for divorce, which is supposed to happen at the end of this week, I can let a lot of my bad feelings go. If he is able to file for and obtain a divorce, then I am willing to try and build a relationship with him from there.

I hear what you are saying and I know I need to work on my own attachment issues. I had my first session with my new therapist last week and I asked her if we could look at my attachment style , which may be dismissive, according to an internet test I took. I'm securely attached to my partner, fearfully avoidant of my parents and dismissive of everyone else. I know my partner has frequently complained about me being dismissive and devaluing in the past and I am willing to work on those issues if he indeed does follow through on filing and obtaining a divorce.


I'm not complaining about his day to day behavior. That is fine. What I am processing is that I had a three year relationship that was built on deceit. That is what is troubling and upsetting to me and that is what I'm going to have to let go of if this man files for and obtains divorce.


I disagree. My d15 running away had nothing to do with my argument with my partner. She has her own issues, and has had them since she was in kindergarten, and that is from both the divorce, and her temperament.

I am not increasing the involvement in my d15 life. She is the one who called him to ask him to call in her absence to school. He actually is the most dependable person I know when it comes to my d15. She and he have a lot in common actually. It is quite possible my d15 may have some traits herself. They are definitely more temperamentally alike then she and I. He's not the problem in my relationship with my daughter.


He is perfectly okay with it. I was very clear with him that I was not comfortable calling him my partner while he was still married. He totally understands where I'm coming from. Our relationship is a lot more comfortable to me now. What i have to do now is process past upset.


That's not what I am doing at all. While I am waiting for him to file and divorce one of the things I am doing with my free time is reading. I am a little bit uncomfortable with your certainty that I seem to be doing things wrong. Forgive me if I have misread you.

I could not modify my post so I will say that I have been reading Formflier, baby ducks and waverider, but I will pay even closer attention. I actually read a lot more threads then I post in. Thank you for pointing them out to me. I am waiting until my partner files and divorces before moving back over to the staying board.

I didn't say he was worthless otherwise, or that you thought so. I don't think I was as clear as I meant to be--I was talking about how you feel about him, not about a more reasoned intellectual assessment of his abilities.

YOUR feelings may be strong enough in the hurt/betrayed/frustrated/angry/etc. realm that you cannot appreciate anything else from him. You can recognize that he is a valuable person... .and be so !@#$!@# pissed that you still don't want anything to do with him, and that anything he does or says will end up wrong and just leaving you pissed off.

Please try not to defend yourself against this--feelings exist, they cannot be wrong. Yours are real, and yours are valid, and are worth listening to and paying attention to. Maybe your feelings are different than what I'm suggesting... .this is a question for you; I don't live in your head and feel your feelings!

Feelings changer, and come and go. Perhaps tomorrow you will feel less strongly about this. Certainly you will feel differently when he's divorced. (Perhaps not how you expect to feel, but differently!)

Right now I'm pretty disgusted with the whole situation. I had a relationship for 3 years that was built on a lie.


I'm not angry though, betrayed yes, disgusted yes, but angry no. I'm past the anger now. It probably helped that I casually brought it up to him that I noticed that you have to be separated for 12 months before you file for divorce. His reaction to that helped me let go of the anger.

I'm not ok with the fact that I was in a relationship with a man for 3 years who misled me. Now I don't think he did it deliberately, with conscious intent, I think it was more sloppy on his part. Of course if I point that out to him he will get offended so I won't.

He tells me he will be filing by the end of the week, he's dealing with intellectual property rights that deal with another person besides his wife. I do believe now that he is making an effort to get divorced however that doesn't change the fact that he had a relationship with me for 3 years without showing me any proof of divorce at all. Unfortunately I didn't think to ask for it until 3 years after he told me he was divorcing, I had taken him at his word for that long.

Now that I look back on it, when he told me he was filing for bankruptcy that's the point at which I needed to have established the boundary I have established now, but at that point in time I didn't have BPD family and I didn't know any better. I was very upset when he told me he was "withdrawing the divorce" and filing for bankruptcy instead, upset enough to want to distance myself from him, but I didn't know how. The FOG was thick back then.

unicorn2014,

You write; "in terms of the divorce, he is working on it." As I understand it, this has been an issue for many, many months now. With your best in mind: Perhaps you should figure out whether you are co-dependent.

Or put in layman's terms: He's treating you like ___, what are you getting out of this deal?

Hey Unicorn,

I'm sorry for giving you that impression. I know very little about you or your relationship, so it's not my place at all to tell you you're "doing things wrong." The observation that upset you was something I've been noticing for a while, and other members have also pointed out the jumping between the issue-of-the-day while these big underlying questions are left unresolved (and continue to erode away at the relationship). It's good to see you working more on radical acceptance of the big issues. I know it's hard. You're in a tough spot and should be doing whatever brings you some comfort and clarity. I'm very glad that you've been feeling more comfortable about your relationship and hope that continues.

Lonely child wrote
I know I am codependent and I've been working on that off and on for over two decades.

What am I getting out of it?

Well things are complicated because my daughter is reaching out to him as a parental figure, so I suppose I'm getting a partner as a parent.

In terms of the other things I'm getting I have to figure out a way to say it without sounding narcissistic or leaving myself open to attack. I can say these are things I think are assets, that others have noticed.

He is a very smart man.

He's psychologically complicated.

He's good looking.

He's mature.

He's experienced.

He's responsible.

He cares about me.

He cares about my d15.

He seems to be motivated to want to get better.

--------

That being said his marital status is now totally unacceptable to me.

-----

That list of assets were all things said about him when I was under the belief that he had filed for divorce.

This again wrote
This thread isn't about the issue of the day. This thread is about how I feel now that is very clear to me he had been deceiving me for 3 years about his marital status. I don't think he was doing it with malevolent intent or even deliberately. I initially did bend my boundaries as I thought he had filed and so I consented to the relationship. I'm no longer willing to bend my boundaries so now I'm feeling pretty disgusted with the whole situation .

I am definitely not feeling more comfortable about my relationship however since I have taken a step back I have become less reactive.

I'm definitely not happy with him right now, however I find it very ironic that the thing that originally drew me to him, his intellectual gifts, is now causing the most problems, intellectual property rights.

I've never been involved with a person who has achieved as much as he has.

My first husband was a very simple man.

My current partner is not.

He seems to be even more complicated then I am.

No, it's acceptable to you. Because you're staying. At least do not fool yourself into thinking that you're taking a stand against it. If you want to stay despite everything - it's up to you. But do not trick yourself into thinking that your situation is different from what it is. Either accept it as it is and stay, and accept yourself for making that choice, whether it be self-destructive or not. Or do not accept it and leave it behind.

Fooling yourself into thinking that you are someone who you're not, or tricking yourself into thinking that your situtation is not as bad as it is, is SURE to get you a BUNCH of mental and physical health problems.

LC, do you know that I have made changes in my relationship? I have taken a step back. I have given myself some space.

I have only facetimed twice since the end of December, I only call him once or twice a day. I have put my relationship on hold until he shows me he filed. He knows this. I am giving him an opportunity to correct his mistake .

Good job! :-) I'm only challenging you with your best in mind. You seem to have taken some good steps back, and I'm glad to hear that. Have you discussed some kind of deadline for the divorce?

Lonely child wrote


Challenge away.

He says he will be filing at the end of the week.

Based on his behavior last night I have pulled back even more and told him to contact me when he has a case number for his divorce.

He claims that once he files his lawyer says he will be divorced in 2 months.

--------

I wasn't prepared for him to give me the silent treatment this morning as previously we were doing morning and evening check ins.

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I'm starting to look critically at things he's told me such it was his wife's fault that she didn't act like a wife towards him. He claims she emotionally abandoned him after a devastating accident that left him temporarily crippled.

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I'm not feeling very good emotionally these days however I am listening to what you and others are saying to me.

Thank you for the feedback.

do you know why he decided to give you silent treatment? did that resolve itself now?

Yes it had to do with last night, he had told me good night in text and then told me he would call my d15 later, per our agreement. That really upset me and I told him if he was not going to call me after he called my d15 then I didn't want him to call my d15. My d15 had a mental health assessment today and they had agreed he would call her at 8 to talk about it. I broke the silence this morning when I noticed he hadn't texted me. I wish I hadn't done that, but like I said previously I don't do ST.

Anyways we worked it out. He claimed that he was going to call me after he called my d15. I deleted the texts or else I would have pointed out to him what he said.

I decided to let it go as it is so close to the end here, supposedly he is calling his lawyer on Friday to set the filing in motion and he said she said it would turn around in a day or two.

One of the things I have been wrestling with is how much can I depend on him to help me with parenting and how capable is he (or any father) for that matter.

Last night my d15 obtained my permission to go out for a walk for one hour, and then she ended up being gone for over 2 hours, and the next morning I saw she had covered up a hickey with makeup. I of course blamed my partner for not talking to her the night before and he blamed me for telling him I couldn't talk to her if he wouldn't talk to me. It was a big mess. I told him that shows him how much faith I have in him. I was also able to finally tell him I don't believe a word he says when it comes to legal matters, however in other areas he has far more credibility with me. He claims to have had legal problems his whole life, and that very might well be true.

Anyways I was able to apologize to him for blaming him for my d15's behavior last night as it wasn't his fault. I'm not used to having a partner as a parent so its still rough going at this point.

that all sounds so upsetting and confusing.

You have some push-pull here on your side. Totally understandable. I have that, too. I feel hurt and I just want to get away and hide. Then I think if I do, it will ruin everything or make it horribly worse, so I try to stick it out.

Very distressing stuff.

Daniel, he says he didn't say he wouldn't call me after he called my d. I say he did say that and if I didn't delete the text I'd prove it to him, however I don't care enough. The bottom line is I did blame him for my d being gone longer then she said she would because I do have that much faith in him so maybe I should look at realistic parenting expectations.

In hindsight I could have said I was disappointed . He claims he didn't call my d because I told him not to and he's right, I did.

At any rate he understands how upsetting it is to me when my ex communicates with our d behind my back so he certainly doesn't want to make that mistake.

I wish I could let him give me the ST, I really do but I always go and mess it up by contacting him.

Well you would like to fix it. I have been there a lot. Silent treatment, I feel terrible, feel like darn it why are you treating me like this, or stop being hurtful to me, then I get upset and contact. Which often got me no response or more conflict. The momentary relief of saying something, anything, or telling him he was hurting me... led and sometimes still does, to him ramping up the ST and retaliating against me.


I know how it feels. Absolutely. I just got it in the face again tonight. A cartoon sent to make fun of me, tossing me out of another chat room. I don't hold it against someone for getting upset, but really, it's awfully hard to be the recipient of deliberate action that is intended to cause hurt.

It does hurt, and I am sorry all of this confusion is tapping into your core hurts. It totally sucks and it's hard to take when you are working so hard to address all of those old wounds. Best I can ever do is pull back and calm myself and think about why it got me so bad again.

Daniell, my partner doesn't really want to give me the ST. I wish I had the strength to let him. That would totally cut down on the confusion. I may look on my iMessages on my laptop to see if the offending message is there. If it is I may save and discuss it with him in a peaceful manner at an appropriate time.

Basically what happened last night is I told him I found out the divorce laws in his state hadn't changed since 1991. There was an awkward silence and then he said he would call me later to say good night. I was fine with that. What I was not  fine with was the text barrage after. I told him if he has something more to say please call me back, don't text me.

At any rate I think I've explored every nook and cranny of that situation and I was able to tell him his word means nothing to me when it comes to legal matters. Now that we have that out in the open we can laugh about it and move on. It kinda of took the power out of it to say it out loud like that. Kinda like put your money where your mouth is.

I know some people find my sense of humor abrasive or insensitive or calloused but the relationship is still going strong after 3.75 years so I haven't scared him away yet. I know sometimes I cross the line however humor is how I deal with other people's outrageous behavior. I know I've seen other members referring to humorous remarks they've made to their BPD loved ones so I know I'm not alone in this. In fact SWOE recommends using humor.

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Your guy does sound like has a vicious streak to him. We did talk about him being more narcissistic then borderline on your other thread. My guy doesn't have that kind of visceral meanness to him, he's more vulnerable . I probably lash out more then my guy does when I'm provoked that's why I try to keep my distance when I'm upset as nothing good comes of that.

Why at the end of the week? Why not 'today' (as of when you were discussing it)?

You are putting much pressure on him. Talking about pwBPD in general - not your SO in particular - this could lead to him putting himself into some kind of accident, he hurting himself, illnesses, etc. If hasn't filed by the end of the week, what do you do?

The end of the week was a mutually agreed upon decision that if his wife did not come forward with her share of the paperwork he was going to take care of the whole thing. If I don't have a case number by the middle of the next week I am going to go no contact until I do as we did have an agreement.

Sounds good. I'm hoping he'll have a case number for you by next week then. Otherwise; stay strong until he does! :-)

Here is the Catch 22.

Going no contact to encourage him to do what he said is abuse and manipulation. It is not healthy. It is not boundaries.

You have to face the real issue and deal with that. The real issue is not the divorce - its dishonesty. He has been dishonest with you and continues to be, now for years (about the engagement, married, prior court filings).  He has been dishonest with his wife - he wanted to file a dishonest bankruptcy, for one.  These are not white lies - these are major life changing lies - over and over and over again.

If your values are honesty and integrity, there is none of that here. Trying to force some type of "integrity" with silent treatment is dysfunctional and unhealthy.

There is a life changing dichotomy here that you are not facing. You say you want a family for you and your daughter based on integrity and honesty. Yet you want to bring into your family a person with a long track records of serial dishonesty.  You are willing to make this huge value concession because he provides something you value much higher than a family for you and your daughter of integrity and honesty.

All these minor conflicts and drama occupy your emotions and concerns, and divert you from the real issues. You need to either embrace a family that will be plagued with years of serial dishonesty or walk away from it.

Playing the "I'll punish the swan for not being a duck and hope it makes him a duck" game is broken thinking.

This is about you. Not him. He is what he is.

Maybe the first question to answer is, what is it about this person that is more valuable than your own values of integrity and honesty?  Why are you willing to do this? Write it down.  See how it feels.  Maybe it makes sense - maybe it doesn't. This is he first part of radical acceptance - labeling what reality is.

Based on what skip said
I need to rethink things.

Here's the catch: my partner denies he's being dishonest. He maintains his lawyer was the deceptive one and says he is suing his lawyer.

In regards to having a family that values honesty: my daughter has been deceptive and lying since she was in early childhood.

That is actually why my partner is a good fit with my daughter, they are more alike then not alike. My ex partner was also deceptive and he gaslights.

I will amend my post to say when I first asked him to show me he filed in June he accused me of attacking his integrity.

This is all very confusing to me.

I don't know if this points to work I need to do on the coping board. My mother used to accuse me of being a liar all the time yet my father said I was one of the most honest people he knew and that was a trait he could count on in me.

To be honest I don't feel like anyone I've been in a relationship has had integrity or been honest, starting with when I was 17. The very first relationship I had, which was technically statutory rape, which was with a man who was living with his girlfriend at the time .  He had a third relationship after I rejected his offer to move in with him and married that woman a year later and they're still married.

I've never had a relationship with an honest man .

My partner claims he is honest and has integrity.

Yes, your partner denies being dishonest. That means either A) he believes what he's saying because he lies to himself, or B) He's doubling down on the dishonesty, by first deceiving you... .then lying and telling you he isn't doing so.

Either way, he's being dishonest.

And either way, your value of honesty comes into conflict with that.

As Skip suggested, look at yourself as how to you resolve that conflict.

One other thought for you--it sounds like you have a long history of dishonest people in your life, and a long history of these people messing with your feelings/beliefs/reality regarding this. I'm not at all surprised that you are terribly confused about this!

My suggestion is to work really hard to not listen to what others (especially your partner and your FOO) say about honesty.

Deep inside you know what the truth is. You know when it is presented, you know when it is obscured or violated directly. You know when (if) you do it. You know when somebody else did it (not always at the time, but eventually you do).

BELIEVE YOURSELF.

See that's just it, what my partner is saying is plausibly true, about his first lawyer messing his divorce up and about having to sue that lawyer. That is one of those things where time will tell.

The dishonest bankruptcy, wasn't entirely dishonest either, his business was insolvent, and he was the primary shareholder, so while he wasn't personally bankrupt, his business was.

In regards to the values of integrity and honesty, I went from being accused of being dishonest, to getting involved with dishonest man after dishonest man, then I married my ex, who was/still is dishonest, and now my partner who appears he is dishonest but claims he is not, and then we have my daughter, who definitely has a problem with lying and deception.

I did write down Skip's question. I didn't write down my answer, however I did think of things like security and consistency and being present.

I'm going to be meeting with my individual therapist next week so I will definitely bring these things up in the session.

I've haven't talked much to my partner today, just for a few brief minutes this morning.

As I've said, most of my interpersonal relationships have been with people who have been dishonest to one degree or another.

I quickly found the following:

Honesty means acting and speaking so as to relate things as you know or believe them to be.

Truthfulness is saying or relating things that are factually correct.

You can be honest (that is, you can speak without intent to deceive) and not be truthful. Say, for example, you had your accountant audit your company, and report that you made a profit of $1000 last month. But the accountant made a mistake--your profit was actually $945. You can say "we made a $1000 profit last month" and not be truthful, but be honest--you had no intent to deceive and were reporting what you had reason to believe was the case.

On the other hand, a truly masterful liar can lie while being absolutely truthful--that is, manipulate the context of what he says (or perhaps omit important information) in order to deceive the listener without saying anything that is not factually correct. Lying is in the intent to deceive, not in the individual statements you make.

So according to this 'definition' of lying and honesty... .

I would consider the possibility that while you may not have proof your partner is in fact lying to you... .You do have proof that he is not being truthful to you.

While I realize you likely want to give your SO the benefit of the doubt, and not label him a liar.  You do not need to call him a liar or prove he is one to analyze what is going on.  You can continue to leave that as an 'unknown' and work with what you do know:

-You have been in the dark for three years(or so) regarding your SO's marital status.

-You appear to have a greater interest/motivation in his marital dessolution than he has.

-He did not show great interest to repair loss of trust that resulted from your perception of feeling decieved, rather, he mostly defended or attacked.

The issue is not really about his marriage or not anymore. (Imo)

You have been in a relationship for plenty of time to learn the dynamics that occur when there is conflict between you two. (As well as when there is not)

Without labeling him a liar or not... .  Are you pleased with the way you and he negotiate conflicts?  Can you live with someone who appears avoidant in the face of conflict?  (Or however you actually feel he deals with conflict) Are you happy with the dynamics that you have experienced with him the time you have known him... .if you know the dynamic will continue for the next 15 years?

Thinking your dynamic with him will change 'if only he weren't married' is a tricky thought (if you have it). The way you two interact... .IS a Fact much more relevant than the truth of his marital status. 

You two are living your future relationship truth and have been.  Are you ok with that?

It is interesting you mention this because it is possible he may have traits of avoidant personality disorder, I believe one of his professionals may have mentioned this to him. It is my former therapist that identified some of his traits as borderline. If that is the case, then perhaps we are in a whole different ballpark.

You are also correct about the not wanting to call him a liar part.

I remember last September when I called my father for help with this problem and he advised me not to call my partner a liar.

I'm actually ok with where things are at right now. He is working on some serious intellectual property issues. I have minimized our amount of contact to two daily phone calls, unless a crisis comes up with my daughter . It is kind of interesting that this crisis in the relationship has allowed me to reshape it in a way that is more to my liking. I will admit I do have some trust issues myself as we are in a LDR and we are functioning on the honor system, however those may be a carry over from my last relationship where my ex did cheat on me prior to getting married and who never respected my boundaries at any point during the relationship.



I actually don't think at all. What will change is I can put my engagement ring back on and change my relationship status from its complicated to engaged. I will be able to talk openly about my relationship in my community without feeling shame when he is divorced.



I know that right now what I am dealing with is all baggage from his past. I do know and believe that his wife ran their business into the ground. I do know and believe that he had previously delegated a whole lot of stuff in his life which all came undone when he separated from his wife and closed his business.


His wife is a dishonest person. She lied to me when she first met me. She impersonated him. Who's to say that a lot of the mess in his life is not from her dishonesty? If they're both dishonest no wonder things are such a mess.

For me with my exacting standard of honesty I have to be very careful. Very few people can measure up to it. I remember recently I caught my father in a dishonest act and I was demoralized. I didn't know my father was capable of such things and when I confronted him about it he brushed it off. What makes things even more complicated is my father told me my  mother was a stickler for honesty, yet she called me a liar while he told me I was one of the most honest people he had ever met. All very confusing to me. Sometimes I wish I didn't have this high standard of honesty.

My partner knew when he met me that I had this high standard of honesty and he knew he had to be very careful. He knew I was straight ahead and wouldn't put up with lies.

I think what's happening here are two worlds are colliding, his world and my world, however he is taking his world apart so he can come join me in my world.

I think that if I am able to stand by my values that things are going to be ok.

Reading your posts, I can't help but feel that, while you've understood the problem on an intellectual level, you're not quite there yet on the emotional level. It feels as though you're in conflict with yourself; a constant battle between intellect and emotions.

You're not standing by your values, because you're co-dependendt on a man who's been continually dishonest towards you. As for the lawyer screwing up the divorce filing; this is TRIVIAL to verify. Call the lawyer!

Yes, I know. Your SO won't allow you to do it. Given your history with him; what makes you trust him on this? Given your history with dishonest people - you NEED to turn to introspection and see WHY and HOW you are creating this environment for yourself.

You're response to this question is interesting. Basically you're saying "what my partner is saying is plausibly true", "I don't feel like anyone I've been in a relationship has had integrity or been honest", 'my daughter has been deceptive and lying since she was in early childhood. That is actually why my partner is a good fit with my daughter, they are more alike then not alike'

Doesn't this sound to you like you are clearly saying that the dishonesty is OK, normal, and fitting for you?




Think about what you are saying here.

When we discuss values/boundaries, the first thing we have to do is walk the talk ourselves.  If we don't, no one will believe we hold a value.

Its a choice to accept a basically dishonest partner into your life. You are making that choice.  Its also a choice to adopt dysfunctional and manipulative ways to try and control him. You have made that choice. There is no effort on either side to move closer to truthfulness - just the opposite. This is a formula for a consistently very unstable partnership.

How do we help you in this?  You have hundreds of responses trying to steer you into more healthy territory - not necessarily leaving him, but confronting the dishonesty and insisting on coming clean, and dropping the emotional abuse - but in the end, dysfunctional life skills are ok with you. 

You may be moving closer to divorce (may), but you are not moving closer to "healthy".

What is particularly alarming to me is that this has all been happening in an LDR. Many, many, many posts about lying, inappropriate texting, hang-ups, silent treatment, and so on.

At least in an LDR, unicorn has a buffer -- she can not take calls, try to ignore texts, turn off devices. Let's assume unicorn's boyfriend gets the divorce and moves to her city. None of these communication problems are going to get any easier. If anything, they'll get worse, because the buffer of distance (and the ability to essentially turn him off) will be gone. Imagine dealing with all of this when you can't just ignore him, because he's in your face.

Skip wrote
I am trying to move closer to truthfulness .

What more can I do to confront the dishonesty?

I've told you I've confronted it every step of the way.

What more can I do to insist on coming clean?

I feel like there is something I am failing to communicate here. I have clearly confronted my partner and I've said as much .

What is more healthy territory?

I don't understand how you can believe there is no effort to come closer to truthfulness.

What do I need to say to convince you otherwise?

I need help here.

Skip wrote
No what I am saying is it's very difficult to cure my child of her lies and deception when everyone around me is engaged in the same behavior and this was before I met my partner.

What I am trying to say is there are very few people in my life with my standard of honesty, maybe one, and that would be my property manager.

Even if I were to leave my partner I would still have to deal with my child.

Dishonesty is neither ok nor fitting for me.

I am open to suggestion here.

I feel like there is something I am failing to communicate here but I don't know what it is.

Lonely child, I am working on it. I think what I was trying to say is I don't feel comfortable holding another adult  up to my standard. I've already told my partner I don't believe a word he says when it comes to legal matters.

I won't be so quick to label myself as codependent . I have put a lot of time and energy into recovery, therapy and religion. I don't want to JADE but I think you might be judging me a bit hastily.

Flour dust, I think we've moved beyond communication problems and now we're dealing with boundary problems.

Apparently I've given everyone the idea I'm ok with dishonesty and I'm just passively going along with it.

I've confronted my partner every time I've caught him in a lie.

I can accept the fact that he's a dishonest person.

What is hard for me to accept is that he says he's not.

He did say he was murky when I first met him and that he knew that wouldn't fly with me.

I'm a bit confused by how people are responding to me.

This feels very contradictory to me.

"Very few people in my life with my standard of honesty."

"Almost everyone in my life has been a liar."

"I don't feel comfortable applying my standard of honesty to adults."

And even worse:

"I can accept that he's a liar."

"I can't accept that he lies about being honest."

A liar would obviously not be honest about lying - that defeats the entire purpose of lying.

You either accept that he's a liar (which you have MORE than enough proof of!) and you go from there; do you want a(nother) liar in your life, or do you get rid of him? Or, you keep denying it to yourself and pretend that he's someone he's not, become co-dependent and mentally ill yourself.

I'm not saying this to be mean (and it's - of course - not as binary as I put it above), but these are things you need to deal with.

Skip had a very good point when he said NC to encourage divorce is abuse. It's not a healthy relationship. What if he goes through with the divorce, and then another problems comes around? Do you threaten with NC again?

I think you should focus more on yourself; you give him your best, expect that he does the same to you, and if he doesn't, move on.

Yeah, I get that. I just don't know how you build a relationship on it. You can't have any trust in anything he says. What's a relationship without trust?

How would I know how a liar behaves if I am not one myself?


I'm fine with accepting he's a liar because not only is he a liar, he is very helpful with my daughter, and I guess that is what I value more then integrity and honesty. I also know that if I ever had a financial or interpersonal problem I could go to him for help, so he also provides security, which I must value over integrity and honesty. So that's two things he provides: coparenting and security.


I know you are not being mean and I am trying to follow your advice. I've stalled out in my 10th step inventory in ACA so I think that will help, I also have had a hard time practicing my religion lately due to having to deal with my daughter. I'm trying to read this book called the passionate marriage as part of my personal inventory work and I haven't been able to due to ongoing crisis with my daughter. What I am trying to say is my life is all convoluted and backwards, kind of like a Fringe episode where the alternate universe collided with this one. I've already been through one marriage and yet I'm having to read about marriage all over again. That's just example of how confused things are in my own life.


I agreed and I'm not going to do that.


I agree with that as well, which I why I alluded to my 10th step inventory, my religious practice, my personal inventory reading. I am trying. You all have to remember that I am also dealing with an ongoing crisis with my 15 year old. Anyone that can provide help with that is going to be an asset to me. He is the first man I met that was both willing and able to step in with my daughter is going to be an asset with me. My partner believe my daughter is an NT like himself and that he gets her.

I'll tell everyone a little story.

I remember the first time my partner came to see me, and I have to be honest right now I'm not comfortable calling him my partner because of the current conversation however that is what he is, he took my daughter and I out to dinner. We went and met my daughter at her after school program to pick her up. We were on foot. I insisted that my daughter cross the street where there was a beeping sign for walkers however she insisted on walking down to the other corner and crossing the street there which was less safe due to right turning traffic. She was 12 at the time. My partner told me not to worry, she'd make it to the restaurant, and he was right, she did.

My partner and I have an interesting dichotomy in our approach to parenting. He's more liberal at the front end and more conservative at the back end. I'm the opposite.

Does any of this make sense?

One of my former therapists said it would be great if I could have a partner for her high school years . I know my partner is not perfect but so far he has been the most active and involved and helpful in my daughter's life.

My topic got locked as I was replying to Flourdust so I will continue it with a new subject heading.

I picked this subject heading because I believe I got in this position with my partner because he couldn't wait to get into a relationship with me before he was divorced, hence the reference to emotional immaturity.

Here is the last post in my last thread

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=289314.msg12726347#msg12726347 (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=289314.msg12726347#msg12726347)

Flour dust wrote
I actually don't have an issue with trusting him.

I think a long time ago people advised me to stay out of his divorce.

I am trying.

unicorn2014,

You seriously NEED to figure out your contradictions. You're saying you have high standards of being truthful and honest. You're saying you don't feel comfortable applying the standard to others. You're saying you have and have had many, many dishonest persons in your life. And you're now saying you don't have issues trusting him, despite him being dishonest with you OVER and OVER.

I absolutely do not mean this in any demeaning manner, but it's almost getting ridiculous, and for your own sake, you need to stop and think about this and pick one, clear direction. If you can take his dishonesty, marriage status etc, so be it (no one may judge you for that), but do not pretend that it is anything other than what it is. Pretending and denying will get you many, many mental health problems in the coming years.

I think that's putting an obfuscating label on a very clear problem: He lies a lot to get what he wants. He won't stop, even when caught.


This makes no sense to me.

You can't trust him to be honest about anything. He might have an affair and lie about it. He might rack up huge debt and lie about it. He might have STDs and lie about it.

It's bad enough when you're in an LDR. If you're together and married, you can't escape his lies by hanging up the phone. If he racks up debt, you're on the hook for it. If he's having an affair, you've got to deal with the fallout because you're under the same roof and all your assets are entangled.

I have friends who lie. I keep them at a safe distance. I don't let them into my life or my assets in a way where they could cause damage. I definitely wouldn't go into a partnership with one or co-sign a loan or anything like that.

So I wrote a long post to the communication thread and it was erased when locked.

Here is the gist of what I said... .

I suspect that your struggling with a conflict of your actions aligning to your values.

Let me make up an example... .

My value: Two pieces of cake is not healthy for me.

My truth: I choose to eat two pieces of cake yesterday... .

I can expand this sentence by adding what I will call 'mitigating circumstances.'

I choose to eat two pieces of cake yesterday... .

... .but they were actually small pieces.

... .but I was at a birthday party and I never usually have cake.

... .Well, I am going jogging today so it doesn't matter so much.

... .Everyone else also had two pieces.

... .The cake was strawberry shortcake and a third of it was actually fruit.

... .It doesn't really count because I skipped lunch and dinner.

So I can try to expand on my original statement to try to add more meaning a bit/or clarify, however, I cannot really do much about the original statement as it will still remain an unchangeable fact that: I did eat two pieces of cake yesterday.  Sometimes I will add mitigating circumstances to try to align my behavior and values.  However, I feel most true to myself and loving to myself when I uphold and live my original values.

This is IMO, how I see Unicorn's conflict... .

Value: It is not ok to be in a relationship with a married man.

Truth: I am choosing to be in a relationship with a married man.

Mitigating circumstances:

I am choosing to be in a relationship with a married man... .

... .but he is working on a divorce.

... .who brings value to my D15's life.

... .who has a wife that is not really a good wife.

... .but he doesn't want to be married, it is merely a legal fact and not where his heart is.

... .I wouldn't have chosen this had I known he was married, yet I am here now, so am choosing to continue... .hence, I did not really 'choose' this.

... .ect.

Back to the cake... .

If I do not like the truth that I ate two pieces of cake, I may... .

1. Try to change the meaning of the truth: I can try to do this by adding what I am calling mitigating circumstances.

2. I can change my value to: It is ok to eat two or three slices of cake.

3. I can change my behavior to support my values: So next time I can consciously align my behavior with my values and choose accordingly.

Back to Unicorn... .

3. You have expressed in the past not 'being ready' to end this relationship.

2. You are clearly a strong minded individual in many ways and not wanting to compromise your values much. (I don't blame you).

By eliminating option #3,(as I do not even consider #2 an option) you are only leaving yourself option #1.

<sub>IMO: Focus by you, your SO, the member of this board is all 'mitigating circumstances' and not going to resolve the ultimate issue.  (I realize that many have stated the same in a variety of ways).

Any focus on his 'immaturity' or difficulty communicating, etc. appears to be a path of #1 which is leading to frustration and varying intensities of the same conflict again and again.</sub>



Thoughts?

*mod*

This topic has reached its post limit and has therefor been locked. Thanks everyone who has participated here.