BPDFamily.com

First post here for me, but I've been lurking for awhile. Hope this topic is OK for this board.

Thought I'd pose a question that I've been asking myself and I'd like to get some input on how others feel.

Have been with my uBPDbf off and on for the last 3 years. Its now long distance (which makes things trickier in lots of ways, especially in terms of his triggers).

He has not been diagnosed, but the signs are pretty unmistakeable. I've been in therapy, which helps.

I consider myself a pretty intelligent, established woman and one who has never ever put up with anything close to this behavior before.

So... .why? What do others think it is about themselves that keeps them in their challenging and sometimes, downright unhealthy relationships?

In my case I think I stayed 30 years because of low self esteem, not understanding myself and a few BPD traits myself. Now with years of therapy, lots of reading and researching I feel ready to move on and my financial status is holding me back. It's hard to start over when retired.  Maybe you are not ready to move on.

Welcome Rabbit04!

It seems that BPDs are able to morph into exactly what we are looking for and put us high on a pedestal at the beginning of the relationship.  I am sure most of us here would agree we thought we had found our soulmate.  In time, we are no longer on the pedestal and they change into something completely the opposite of what we fell in love with.  At this point it seems we are stuck holding on to the hope that they will sometime return, permanently, to the amazing person we fell in love with.  It is hard to accept the fact that it was not a real person and they will never fully return.

Glad you found us!  Keep posting and reading the site, there is amazing support here.

Rabbit04,

*welcome*

We're glad that you joined. It can be hard to talk to someone about a partner that can make feel like we're walking on eggshells.

As you can see there are different circumstances and choices with marie1057, and Lilme, I think that's a question to ask yourself. You sound frustrated.

The r/s is long distance and what's going?

Hi Rabbit04,

As someone who has been co-dependent and in an awful r/s with a pwBPD, now recovered, having moved on, being healthy today etc:

First off, no matter how you are told, or what you are told, it is not going to sink in on an emotional level until you develop beyond this point. This is important to realize - you cannot empathize with a view that requires more emotional maturity than you currently have, as that would be paradoxal.

Looking back, what makes us stay is fear of being inadequate - this relates back to our own childhoods, being not-quite-enough for our parents. Also, this has ties with being a perfectionist - feelings of worthlessness or inadequacy unless we can fulfill the demands and wishes of others. I also had a fear of lonliness, thoughts of no one else ever loving me, etc.

As you, I'm intelligent, successful in other parts of life, etc. I honestly do not believe you when you say you've never put up with this behavior before though. I think (this is by no means an attack on you and I might be wrong!) there will come a day when you realize that you have put up with this behavior in various forms since birth. This is important to identify, because it helps you understand what parts of your SO's behavior you can change and which are theirs to bear. In other words, realizing that you've most likely been a victim of sorts throughout your entire life is essential for you to be able to set firm boundaries.

Are you seeing a T?

Welcome Rabbit04

Well done for posting!

I also came to this forum undecided, and then decided to stay. We all have personal reasons for moving on or staying. My conscious ones were children, 14 years of investment and I loved her. I had a raft of unconscious reasons too.

Why are you still involved? and what is it about your relationship that you feel is unhealthy?

I am quoting another member who posted on the forum for people who are detaching.

This post was very powerful for me. It may not be ALL the reasons but they are very valid:

"When I ask myself why I stayed, the following are my answers:

1. Inexperience: The first is usually the longest. Have a couple of relationships like this and it becomes easier to see patterns. Then you get out quicker. (The question of why I repeated is something I'm working on.)

2. Their experience: People who don't have necessary emotional, cognitive and whatnot tools to build long-time intimate relationships have honed their skills really well to attract and charm people. This is one of the basic things their emotional survival (and sometimes physical) depends on. They can be dysfunctional themselves but attract high functioning people. There is no way I could attract anyone if I was as dysfunctional as my last partner, yet he did it:)) We have different skill sets, initial attraction is their playground.

3. Rationality: I love this one. Rational people tend to remain in irrational dialogues and all sorts of unhealthy communication because they are rational and probably not arrogant. They simply think that the problem could be solved rationally, the argument could be put back into a rational framework with rational tools. Well, not in Cluster B. This results in the rational one becoming crazy. I now see this as my half-rationality when interacting with Cluster B, a fully rational person sees it for what it is and stops believing that this can be solved rationally at home.

4. Well-developed problem solving skills: My inner voice: "I have tremendous problem solving skills, they have helped me everywhere in my life. My partner seems a bit crazy, but no worries, I can solve this with my problem-solving skills." (This is where my codependency and controlling aspects of my character come into play, not through lack of independence and confidence but the other way around.)

5. Lack of acceptance (probably an ego thing as well): My inner voice: "I have spent an enormous amount of time in an ultimately pointless relationship. I lost a lot of things and a lot of time. This is very difficult to accept because I don't see myself as someone who falls for this kind of drama in other aspects of my life. I have to stay and sort this out for my ego's sake. Gosh, I can't have done this! I can't have done this! I'll stay and sort this out and prove to myself that I haven't done this!  Empathy)     

6. An observing personality rather than a judging one: My inner voice "I've never seen anything like this. What's he going to do now? Let me stay and learn." Well well, curiosity killed the cat smiley

7. Denial: My inner voice: "I'm not in an abusive relationship. I'm a high functioning, independent person. I cannot be abused, it's for other people. It cannot happen in my life. This is something else."

8. Guilt: My inner voice: "In the end of the day, I know my life will be OK after this. His may not be. I shouldn't leave him like this. Not right now. Maybe when he gets a bit better."  Sometimes we stay out of politeness smiley

I sometimes feel engulfed but think it's very rude to admit this, especially if they seem to be "working" on the relationship.

Some elements of abusive relationships:

1. It works in cycles: The low is very low but the high is very high (compensation, otherwise nobody would stay). With the right amount of "high", we stay in these relationships. In abuse terminology, this is called "dosing."

2. Our confidence or belief in something is eroded even though we may not admit it.

3. We get used to the adrenalin high we get from fights and start missing it, too.

4. Sex is used as a control tool in these relationships a lot and at first we don't understand it. If there is a lot of sex we stay because it's extraordinary. Even when we start seeing it as a control tool, for a while we stay because what the heck, we are enjoying it. When there isn't a lot of sex, we again stay because we want to get it back (for ego-reasons).

5. We are trained, conditioned to lower our standards,  decrease our expectations slowly. But this happens pretty slowly. Somewhere in the middle, we are simply grateful that there isn't a big drama that day. Lack of drama starts feeling good enough. At one point, I was simply grateful that my partner cooked and cleaned the kitchen counter  huh Also, these days lacking drama are our only windows for problem solving. But we know what happens when we try to build boundaries or problem-solve. We are very tired emotionally so choose the easy road of just letting go, just for that day. Those days build up.

6. Our schema is confused. Being exposed to constantly contradicting behaviour does this to us. We can't act as soundly as we do in other things in life.

7. Illusionary comfort of the familiar: he is crazy but at least he is "my" crazy, and there is the semblance of a relationship at home. (This despite my being a very independent person.) "

^^^ THAT IS AWESOME.  :)

Hey Rabbit04, Welcome!  You have come to a great place.  It's a good question and I agree with the points raised above.  I would also suggest that when a codependent person crosses paths with a pwBPD, it's a perfect storm that creates something akin to an addiction: we know it's bad for us but we don't want to, or can't, stop doing it, so we just keep riding the roller coaster.

LuckyJim

Absolutely bang on.

Thanks to all for the welcomes and your great insight. Yes, I am in therapy. Have been prior to this relationship (was situational depression and anxiety), but have been going more often as a result of being involved with this man.

It is long distance, but did not start out that way. We started dating in 2013 (off and on) and he moved out of state (while we were apart) in 2014.


I love him, but it has become a toxic and unhealthy relationship. I think the main thing is I'm pretty tired of the verbal and emotional abuse. I feel pretty beaten down and battered by it. His extreme rages, the irrational expectations and accusations, the bringing things up from the past with the explicit intent to cause me pain. I've read a great deal about BPD, along with things that I can do to help minimize the triggers and damage.

He is undiagnosed, but there is quite simply no doubt in my mind. Its all there. I have encouraged him to seek therapy and I "think" he's finally agreed to go.

Honestly, right now, I just need a break. My friends and family are very concerned about me. I'm trying very hard to be understanding and sympathetic to his condition, but after a particularly brutal and expletive-filled tirade the other night, I told him that right now, I need to be away from him. We are just hurting each other. I'm not strong enough to handle his pain and mine too. Is my job to handle mine and his to handle his.

I have lost part of myself and right now, I need to find it again.

Y'all have given me much to think about. 

Thanks so much for this! Lots of great stuff. So much of it rings so true for me.

I am undecided, but so far the biggest reason I have stayed is because I really do love him. I think it is particularly hard to leave someone who you love, and who you know acts/treats you the way they do, when you know that they do it because they have an illness, and even more since you know that the illness was caused by abusive treatment, and unhealthy family relationship they grew up with.

Then there is always the hope that they will understand and change.

Then, of course, codependence telling you that your problems are not as important, or that you can handle it, or you can't hurt someone, or that they need you. And empathy.

These are fabulous responses! Thank you.  

I've been married to two BPD husbands, and I think a boyfriend in between was also BPD, and of course I was raised by a BPD mother. We get so indoctrinated into the BPD lifestyle that it almost seems normal when we're brought up by a BPD parent. I think I got a very confused sense of what love is by thinking it was the overemotional BPD expression of it and that's why I was prey to BPD men.

First husband was physically and emotionally abusive. He was a substance abuser, financially irresponsible, and adulterous. I stayed with him due to inexperience and a belief that if I just kept trying, I could mould him into a reasonably nice husband. Didn't happen.

With the boyfriend, I saw a very nice person who had some major baggage with PTSD from military service and a crazy young daughter. I kept my distance, thankfully.

The current husband swept me off my feet and I don't think I've ever been more in love with someone. I really loved him for several years until the veneer wore thin and I saw him for truly who he is, and the alcohol abuse got really tiresome. I still love him, but in a far more distant way. He is a basically good kind man, but you know, BPD. I stay because he's inherited a huge amount of money, we've built a very nice life together and sometimes I really like him.  *)

Wow... .what a perfect thread to jump in on. I'm often laying awake at 2 a.m. staring at the ceiling knowing I need to make a what's-next plan, but I haven't. I've been married to my BPD wife for 29 years, came to understand her BPD and recognize her closet alcoholism about five years ago, and soon realized it's probably been there our entire marriage. I don't like this person anymore and I'm certain I never could again. But I sure do feel sorry for her.

Initially, my period of learning about BPD through the help of a psychologist brought on a feeling of exhilaration, almost an adrenaline rush as I came to understand why I had been feeling crazy for all those years. Have others felt that release? The moment when you understand there's no way you ever could have achieved high enough? What an idiot I was!

But then the rush faded and I'm still here. We quietly co-exist in the same house, sleep separately, have polite daytime conversations that avoid any depth, and act as cheerful as possible at family dinner as we ask our last remaining child at home about her day. She's number 3 of 4 and she'll be off to college in about 2 1/2 more years.

Then dinner is done and I retreat to a book, or a game on TV, or homework and laughs with my good-natured daughter, while in the bathroom or laundry room or some place I haven't yet discovered, two bottles of wine are quickly consumed and my wife heads quietly off to bed. Through experience, my daughter knows I will come to her rescue when conversation with mom goes off-kilter. There's no violence or raging, just awkwardness and utterly confounding moments.

So like I say, I think I've found the right forum.

I'm feeling miserable and I'm aware that a much better life is waiting for me. So why can't I even imagine a good plan?

Hey William K., Feeling sorry for your BPDw is one thing, but remember that you are not responsible for the well being of another adult.  My BPDxW was a closet alcoholic, too, so I know where you're coming from.  My Ex drank a 12-pack of beer every night; that's right, a 12-pack!  The recycling bins were overflowing.  Before that, it was a liter of Pinot Grigio.

I doubt that love can survive in a r/s with a BPD alcoholic.  Some sort of r/s can continue, as you describe, but love dies, I think.

The first step, in my view, is to change the focus to yourself.  Time to start caring for yourself, rather than the pwBPD.  What is the right path for you?  Ultimately you have to do what's right for you, don't you?  To paraphrase a famous Zen koan, "How does the snail climb Mt. Fuji?  But slowly, slowly."  You get the idea.  Take the first step, I suggest.

LuckyJim

LuckyJim,

hey, my wife's preference is pinot grigio too... .two standard bottles of per night, with empty bottles neatly wrapped up with the daily trash under the sink and then placed out in the trash bin in the garage. It awes me to enter the figures in the on-line blood alcohol calculators. Danger and passed-out levels for normal adults. But with her built up tolerance, just sloppy conversation and still able to get up by 7:00 most mornings.

And yes, the first next step needs to come. I had wonderful counseling that helped me immensely to understand what I was dealing with. But I also became a frustrating patient because I wasn't able to bring myself to separate from the relationship, even though it was tearing me apart. That was a while ago and it's probably time to start counseling again and dig into my fears. Thanks Jim

I think izabellizima's reply is right on.

And I would add, in my case, I really just didn't know what I was dealing with. It was very confusing to me. We would have these terrible arguments, seemingly about nothing, that would just go around and around in circles, and the logic she was employing made absolutely no sense and she twisted things around so there was just no winning for me.

I really didn't know what was going on. Until I found out about BPD, and a lot of things really clicked for me. I don't know if she is full BPD, but she definitely has some of the traits. Fortunately she doesn't do the dangerous behavior and I don't feel like she idealized a lot at the start of our relationship. But the lack of trust, the suspiciousness, the pushing me away, blaming me and other for her problems, etc. are all there.

ATL

Hey atl, Been there; done that.  Ah, yes, the never-ending arguments with my BPDxW that went on all night, but never resolved anything.  Total waste of time, but I thought it was my job as H to listen to her ranting and raving (no, it wasn't my job).  I tried validation and more validation, but the impact was minimal when she went on a tear.  Suggest you be careful of taking the blame, which is a way that those w/BPD shift responsibility to the Non.

LuckyJim

Hello Rabbit! 

Welcome to the group ... .I sympathize why you're hear but glad you found us. Also glad you found a therapist you can start to sort through your feelings, emotions, fears, & thoughts ... .you're on a journey that will take you to places you might not like, but is certainly needed in order to begin the process to heal yourself and have a fun, loving and caring relationship.

To answer you question in regards to my BPD relationship ... .what I thought was my FIRST exBPDgf was 20 yrs ago ... .like most NONs who start a r/s with a BPD, the first few months were nothing short of spectacular & like everyone else I thought this was love and my soulmate.  I spent a lot of money to move her 1/2 way across the country and moved her into my house ... .from there things went thermonuclear within days. Almost 30 days into this new stage of the relationship she truly went off the deep end, raged against me, verbally and physically assaulted me. I told her I needed some space, & told her maybe in 30 days she could find a place of her own ... .she moved out that night. I spent the next 9 months going back and forth ... .I didn't sleep, eat, all the things we've all experienced. Back then I didn't know about BPD and finally had enough and joined the military to escape her constant stalking among other things.

Fast Forward 20 years, divorced and now seeing a friend from High school long distance after 25 year absence. Again the first few months were incredible, she bashed her ex-husband, her last bf, I understood her, I was her best friend, etc. She blew up at me once and didn't remember it ... .I saw signs of things before in the other relationship. She wanted to know why she would rage, I told her I saw characteristics of bi-polar, she told me that her therapist said she was BPD. What the hell is that? SO began my journey down my path. I learned a new language of what, push / pull, sex triangles, raging, projection, gas lighting, deregulation, devaluation, manipulative behavior, abandonment issues, engulfment issues, Comorbidity, and the list goes on and on. I tried for months to stay with her & at one point she told me, "You've done everything I've asked you too, I just can't promise you that I won't have a sexual triangle on you". Hey at least she was honest for that one moment. She invited me to a couple of therapy sessions & learned that she was right. Her therapist told me that having a monogamous relationship with her might not ever happen.  I moved across country for her not once but twice, spent thousands of dollars and ALL the BPD behavior that followed was more then enough for me. I tried to save her ... .the eternal optimist that never quits. I ended up moving back across the country to continue me therapy, healing and self discovery.

I learned that BPD is a very serious mental illness that will never be cured. At best between decades of therapy and mood stabilizer meds they might have a chance at some level of behavioral balance. I did a deep dive on myself, with therapy, reading, this site, reading I learned that I was a codependent, care giver, the perfectionist, the knight in armor trying to save her or others. I learned that his behavior as some have mentioned was learned from my BPD mother and raging alcoholic father. I was always trying to achieve their approval, their acceptance in my grades, sports, etc. that never came. It was a learned behavior as a child that carried into my adult life. I said earlier that I thought my 1st exBPDgf was my first relationship with a BPD ... .I was wrong ... .my 1st relationship and longest lasting relationship with a BPD is my mother. It's where it all began ... .and once you learn, accept it, then you can continue your journey of self discovery and healing.

Once I learned this, I had to learn to adjust my behavior, tell my BPD mother & sister no, and take care of my needs, my happiness. I had to learn the my BPD mother, BPD sister and the exBPDgf flying monkey's where theirs to put in their cages and not mine to deal with. I certainly miss my exBPDgf and learned that is ok. I will alway love my exBPDgf because for a short period of time she was a important part of my life and if it wasn't for her I would have never learned about my care giver behavior and never been able to adjust it to live a better life for myself.

I learned the 51% rule ... .the 51% Rule says that we need to consider our own needs just a little more than those of others in order to be able to help them effectively. I learned the 50% rule ... .the 50% Rule says that we are responsible for 50% of the things that happen in any relationship we share with a person who suffers from a personality disorder.

Once I read, learned and accepted the 3 C's of BPD ... .I didn't CAUSE IT!  I can't CONTROL it!  I can't CURE it!  It was a turning point for me ... .that BPD is a very serious mental illness that can't be cure ... .no amount of love I showed her, no amount of showing her how much I care would never help her. My second exBPDgf told me she had been & out of therapy for almost 30 years with multiple Ph.d's, mental health therapist, and had taken different meds and it had little if any affect on your overall behavior. As one therapist told me someone with BPD is like Humpty Dumpty who fell of the wall, All the kinds men and all the kings horses could never ever put Humpty back together again. In the case of loving a BPD ... .LOVE DOES NOT CONQUER ALL ... .

I don't blame her ... .I don't hate her ... .she was a victim of horrors in childhood that has made me physical sick to learn about. It's ok to miss her ... .It's ok to love her ... .but I love myself more ... .and I am responsible for MY happiness ... .a relationship with a BPD & a NON is NEVER meant to last ... .it's meant to happen ... .so you can learn about yourself so you can discover yourself and live a happier life ... .

JQ

I agree. In a twisted way, they help us deal with the unfinished business from our childhoods. A catalyst for change.

JQ, sounds like you have been through quite the ordeal! I agree with much of what you have said. I try and repeat the 3 C's (Didn't cause it, can't cure or control it) often to myself.

I'm not sure that I truly believe that all BPDs are doomed to never ever improve or get better. I think a BPD that is NOT receiving adequate treatment (and a correct diagnosis) doesn't have much of a chance at all to improve, but I think there are some success stories out there.

I do love him. Its when I started losing myself (like really losing myself, self-doubt, feeling absolutely crazy after talking or dealing with him), that I knew I needed to focus on myself and love myself more. And you are right... .we are all responsible for our own happiness. Indeed.

Zuki, I can totally relate to all of this.

I honestly thought I was strong enough to deal with all of it. Recently, I realized... .nope, not strong enough. I can handle my pain, but no way can I handle his.

Right now, I'm keeping him at arm's length as I really do examine the question I originally asked everyone "What is it about us that makes us want to stay?"

Hi Rabbit,

It certainly has been a VERY expensive LEARNING lesson, not just monetary but my heart, mind & soul have paid prices as well. LET me correct one point, I DIDN"T say they wouldn't improve ... .I said they will NEVER be fully cured. Because of 30 years of therapy, & sometimes meds, my exBPDgf has improved, to what degree is hard to measure. She is fully aware of her behavior & BPD diagnosis. In those rare moments I saw clarity in her eyes & behavior she would tell me she cannot promise me she won't have a sexual triangle on me. She KNOWS that she has hurt me but continued the behavior even after we, "her, me & the therapist"  TRIED to discuss it. BUT,   AND like you Rabbit, when I lost who i was at my core, my laughter & wit, & like you when I starting to doubt myself, feeling crazy after event after event & discussion after discussion I had to take my own life back. There have been & will be others the I'll date but I'm a much wiser & educated person in the ways of BPD.

J


JQ

That's a razzle dazzle post izabellizima!

I've kept it as a reminder. Great stuff. Thanks.

This is a good question and one I ask myself daily.

My SO is still not divorced from his wife after 3.5 years, and even though that's her fault at this point, it doesn't matter.

I think for me its what my SO does for a living that keeps me attached to him as that proves his intelligence and that is what is required to keep me in a relationship. If I were to meet an available man with his intelligence that held my interest locally I could leave my SO. My relationship is also long distance.