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For me identifying how we got in this position in the first place, is important. What you (the board) calls lying I call emotional immaturity, the desire for immediate gratification. It does matter. I don't think my partner is a fundamentally dishonest person. If he was I wouldn't be involved with him. He couldn't be an INTJ and be a dishonest person, as dishonesty is antipathy to INTJs.

I've have taken a huge step back in the relationship while I'm waiting for him to file for divorce.

He is very much functioning as my partner when it comes to parenting my 15 year old and I really appreciate that.

He also encourages me as a painter which I almost totally forget about when I am caught up in parenting.

He also helps me deal with my incredibly difficult ex husband.

The way I see it is I am fine if I don't poke around too much in his life, I find him useful in my life, and he is dismantling his life anyways so he can come and join me in my life.

I also have to say I was incredibly emotionally immature when I told him it was ok if he was married, I still loved him anyways. I had no idea of the consequences of my decision. I've really grown up a lot over the past 3 years. In fact I recently ran into a woman from a recovery program and she told me I was like a child when I first came in and I am a mature woman now.

So I am saying we were both emotionally immature, which is in line with what I've read here, that we choose partners that match our maturity level.

That was then, and this is now, and now I am trying to handle things as a mature woman.  I even stated that originally I set up a DD/lg dynamic in my relationship until I realized my partner was too damaged to be my daddy, and I dismantled that.

I'm not blaming him for the emotional immaturity that the relationship was built on, I'm taking responsibility for my fair share of it.

That might serve as an explanation (rationalization?) for the initial lie that he wasn't married, but not all of the subsequent lies and evasions about the divorce and so forth. What's the immediate gratification in making up all kinds of stories and excuses to explain the lack of progress on his divorce?


Hmm. Are you familiar with the psychological theory of cognitive dissonance? It's the discomfort and stress caused by simultaneously having two opposing beliefs or values. You've expressed it very neatly here. 1: I wouldn't be involved with a fundamentally dishonest person. 2. I know my partner has a history of dishonesty.

Cognitive dissonance is usually resolved by either making a change to eliminate one of the values or coming up with a justification to explain or minimize the dissonance. In your case, you've been trying on a variety of justifications, such as "He wasn't intentionally being dishonest" and now "He was emotionally immature, but he's getting better, so he's no longer a fundamentally dishonest person."

But these are all happening in your mind, to reduce your discomfort caused by the clash between your value and the facts.


This is another justification. It's a very thin one, though, as the Myers-Briggs is a very poor test that has been shown to have little scientific basis.

I'm stating that it was my emotional immaturity that allowed the relationship to happen in the first place. I am owning my part. I am also stating that I have matured throughout the course of the relationship.

What I am stating is what my partner did in his life before he met me is none of my business, that includes his prior marital status. What he does after he divorces and is fully available to be in a relationship with me is my business. That's not rationalizing. That's trying to stay on my side of the street. My partner's business with his wife is not my business.

The Meyers-Briggs test is administered in colleges and employment centers. I do think it is a valuable assessment tool. We even talk about it here on this website.

unicorn2014,

Perhaps you should take a break from posting and read your own posts?

Your way of thinking about this and the way you are rationalizing is not healthy. To me, your thinking is almost disordered. You are setting yourself up for big trouble right now. For every step we attempt to take with you, you cover it up and pretend it's not as bad as it sounds. You are not moving towards a healthy situtation. Please be careful with yourself - and your daughter.

This is another justification. It's a very thin one, though, as the Myers-Briggs is a very poor test that has been shown to have little scientific basis.[/quote]
I've mentioned before to you that MBTI is a personality assessment.  It is rooted in Jungian psychology.  It in NO WAY measures anything like honesty/dishonesty.  Your partner may be qualified in MBTI -- a lot of us on this forum also are MBTI qualified -- and tells you these things, but this particular interpretation of MBTI is NOT TRUE.  Personality is not emotional intelligence nor morals nor values; don't confuse them.

In many aspects, you continue to project as very naive.  I sometimes have difficulty understanding how you have believed something you have been told by your partner.

*mod*

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In an effort to steer the thread in a more constructive conversation, let's look at a couple of excerpts from the article on characteristics of healthy relationships. https://bpdfamily.com/tools/articles15.htm (https://bpdfamily.com/tools/articles15.htm)

Here are two excerpts I selected relevant to the issues going on here.


First, I am an adult child of disordered parents, so that is going to affect how I choose relationships. I did not have any recovery as an adult child of disordered parents when I picked my partner, so let's keep that in mind.

I do believe that today, January 29, 2016, there is both trust and support, and honesty and accountability in the relationship, as a result of me taking a step backward. I also agree that that was not the case until September 2015 when I took it upon myself to find out my partner's divorce hadn't been filed with the court.

I talked to him today and he told his lawyer had not heard back from his wife's attorney so she is going to file first thing on Monday morning.

Unicorn, I do see you working hard in these areas you quoted. I believe you are making progress.

I'm not seeing much on your partners side. He still seems very reactive to you. it isn't clear what real progress he has made on his divorce yet, but there is hope there.

Have the other games changed?

I know what my partner did is wrong and I'm certainly not interested in defending him however since I'm not leaving him I want to be able to move forward and put this behind me.

Then this might be the wrong board. Anyway, that you've made a firm decision regarding this is some sort of step forward. You should not be denying that he's a dishonest person (you've said it, it's obvious from what you've told us about him, and you've said that almost every person in your life has been dishonest) but rather accepting it into your life. This is something you will need to face. Pretending that he's not dishonest when he obviously is will get YOU in trouble. Accept him for what he is and keep him in your life. The decision is obviously yours to make.

IF you end up in an abusive r/s with lies etc with him, you should - for your own sake - set a firm limit at which point you decide to leave him behind and NEVER look back no matter what.

The threads that got moved to this board in the first place were about how resentment about the original lies, when you allowed yourself to really register how extensive the deception had been and what you lost as a result, was compromising the peace and satisfaction of your daily communication with him. And you were struggling to set terms that felt right to you for the duration until he gets divorced or files for divorce.

From your responses on this thread, you feel these issues are resolved now. You have a framework you are at peace with till he gets divorced, and you are not feeling resentment that compromises daily interactions. Does that seem accurate?

I've failed to communicate. I haven't made a firm decision. I'm not moving over to the staying board until I see a divorce case in the system.  I haven't said everyone in my life has been dishonest, I've said those who I've gotten romantically involved with have been dishonest.




I've already been through the abuse with him. I'm not going to leave him over dishonesty, is what I'm trying to say, especially dishonesty regarding his life he had before he met me. I am waiting for him to straighten things out, and keeping minimal contact while I do.

I don't think that's what those threads were about.

I'm fine with the terms I set which is communication as needed regarding my daughter, as well as keeping each other up to date and what the other is doing.


Not really, because I'm not feeling resentment, however I am not at peace either. I am waiting. I am definitely not happy with the state of affairs, however I have taken a huge step backward to allow him to finish his business. I've got too much of my own business to mind to waste my energy on resentment.

I'm worried you don't value yourself here. This is like saying "well he's already kicked me, so slaps are ok now." If you don't leave him over more dishonesty, how can you claim that honesty is an important value to you?

What you're saying is hard for me to integrate, I mostly see contradictions everywhere.

Your response here sits kinda funny with me, and I'm trying to put my finger on it.

I guess I'm having trouble figuring out quite what it means and how it works. I think there is still a mixed message in there. And I'm rather worried that if *I* am having trouble sorting it out, and I'm not suffering from BPD, and have a high tolerance for ambiguity... .well... .your partner is gonna crash and burn, given his reduced emotional capacity.

I've got another friend in a vaguely similar situation. (She is in a relationship of sorts with a guy who is married to somebody else. Nearly everything else is different.) She took a step that you don't appear to have taken, and may need to. (BTW, this was a VERY hard step for her to take!)

She accepted that as of right now, he hasn't divorced his wife, and isn't likely to divorce his wife anytime soon, possibly not ever. Completely accepted it. (Even though he had previously told her he was going to do it in ~six months, waiting on an obscure legal issue... .)

Then she accepted that the relationship she was willing to have with him while he was married had some significant limits on it.

Finally she chose to plan her life around those limits. Even if it means that her relationship with this (otherwise amazing) guy might be harmed. And letting go of any plans that would involve getting married to him, as not part of the future she was going to make for herself.

She was MUCH happier and at peace, when she realized how much the waiting was hurting her and costing her, and she moved on from doing it. (As I said, this was hard for her. Also hard on the guy in question. But she's sure it was the right thing to do.)

I don't know if something similar is the right thing for you or not. Please think about it.

Grey Kitty, the marriage was his idea not my idea.

I'm fairly burnt out on my relationship right now.

My partner has been putting me down and humiliating me for the last two days.

I have done as you and others have suggested and taken a big step back. I've been deleting text messages, not answering phone calls.

I am not willing to accept that he may never get divorced. He stated his lawyer was going to file today and that he should have a case number by Wednesday. If that doesn't happen I am going to have to start thinking differently. I personally am not comfortable having a partner who is married to someone else, even if its just a legal matter.  That does affect how he can support me, and I don't want to be in a relationship with someone who is financially compromised because they are married to someone else.

His divorce is not going to change his personality

I don't like how he talks to me and I know I can't change that.

I don't know that I have what it takes to be in a relationship with a personality like his.

However he does seem to have a very positive effect with my daughter so I have to take that into consideration. I don't want to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

So that's my dilemma in a nutshell.

If he and your daughter have an independent relationship that is meaningful, then they are able to carry on that relationship without you.  That is a choice to be made by all.

Keeping that going while not having a romantic relationship with him sounds like a good idea... .for your daughter, possibly even for him.

However I don't see him as likely to have that capacity. If keeping that relationship going is a top priority to you, then not rocking the boat further in the romantic relationship sounds somewhere between prudent and a requirement.

I'm confused as to what you were answering with that. I certainly believe that it is his marriage, and not something you thought of or chose.

I have pushed you to accept that that is exactly how he is right now, and that his prior behavior gives any statements on his part that he is working quickly, surely, or effectively toward divorce aren't very credible in my book. He's told you too many things that were some combination of untrue, misleading, or not followed through with about it in the past. Yes, he *might* do something different this time. It is possible. However if I were in your shoes, I wouldn't want to make any larger life plans for myself that depend upon him being divorced.

... .the rest of what you said in that reply seems reasonable and clear, if not comfortable for you. I do want to commend you on the progress you are making here.  |iiii

His marrying me was his idea not my idea.

In terms of his relationship with my daughter it is dependent on input from me. If I can find a way to have a friendship with him while I'm waiting for him to divorce then I will do that. Right now I don't know that I can. The way he is talking to me is just not working for me. His tone, his language is very insulting and dismissive. I wouldn't put up with that from someone else so I shouldn't tolerate it from him either.

This is a choice.

It is possible for the two of them to have a relationship independent of you.  All would have to be able, comfortable, agreeable though.

 That is a tough realization to face.

Now I will say something about it--you apply the statement that his way of talking to you isn't acceptable in two different ways. Both versions are valid responses. Both are better than continuing to accept that kind of treatment.

1. This isn't acceptable to me, therefore it is time to protect myself and not communicate with him until later. (i.e. enforce a boundary and take a time out)

2. This isn't acceptable to me, therefore it is time to end this relationship.

If you aren't sure which you want to do, we're here to help you decide. When you decide, we're here to support you in making your choice work as well as you can.

Sunfl0wer, what I am saying is that in order for that relationship to be of maximum benefit he and I need to have a working relationship. For example this morning my daughter went missing again. I told him, he texted her without my asking him to, he told me where she said she was (starbucks, no specific location), then she came home. I hadn't even had thought to text her since her phone is currently broken. That is an example of a working relationship. Did she come home because he texted her? I don't know, maybe, maybe not, however that would be a situation where he definitely appeared to be helpful based on information I gave him (my daughter wasn't home and didn't leave a note).

It is option 1. for the reason I just stated to sunfl0wer above. It is very clear to me now that in order for me to build a partnership with him he has to be divorced. In the meantime we can be friends.

We weren't even supposed to be communicating throughout the day but then my daughter went missing and after that she got sick .

I definitely need help on how to deal with it when I feel put down and humiliated by him. I know that I have a right to terminate conversations with people who make me feel put down and humiliated, but then what? What's the next step? I know I can't change how he talks to me.

I told him what I'm looking for in a partner, someone to build me up, not tear me down however he denies he's treating me poorly and then tells me I'm treating him poorly.

I know that all I can do is disengage, but what kind of relationship is that where I'm constantly disengaging because the other person keeps putting me down?

Yesterday and today he called me a spoiled brat, told me I don't know how to treat a partner, told me I'm taking out my frustration on him, told me I project, told me I broke up with him, cited the day and time, told me I dismantled our relationship, told me don't text him or call him unless its about my daughter, told me I'm emotionally unstable, called me abusive, interrupted me, talked on top of me, talked under me, etc. That all started yesterday because I told him I was busy and then he started acting out. I told him he was treating worse then I was treating myself and that wasn't acceptable to me.

He's not acting that way because he is legally married to someone else, he's acting that way because that's his personality.

I do value myself which is why I'm having this conversation in the first place.

I'm trying to figure out how I can have a relationship with this man without losing myself in the process. Having just gained myself back, I don't want to lose myself again.

My sense is that your lack of clarity about the nature of your current r/ship with him is doing w lot of the damage. Are you friends with him in a co-parent role with your daughter? Or is he your partner? These are completely different roles with completely different expectations.

I cannot answer that question for you. I personally was in a similar situation with my wife, a couple times.

The first time was around when I found these forums, and my marriage was abusive. I went on a 10-day silent meditation retreat, and came out with some real clarity. First that I loved my wife very much. Second that I was at risk of losing myself, becoming a broken shell of a person in that marriage, and I decided I was willing to leave to protect myself if I needed to. (Turned out that I was able to protect myself with boundaries and stay in the marriage a good bit longer, and the direct abuse did go away. Yes, the story was much longer, more painful, and more complicated than that!)

The second time was after my wife had cheated, and we had separated, and were trying to see if we could find a way to patch things up again.

At that time, the biggest issue was that while I was no longer at risk of becoming an empty, broken shell by the abuse, we were both still very enmeshed with each other emotionally, and still pretty reactive to each other.

I knew that the work of becoming a separate, individuated person in a relationship was a huge job, and that I could become separate and individuated much more easily if we did split... .I knew that if we tried to stay together, it would be incredibly tempting to fall back into our enmeshed roles, that it would be far far harder to make that change while staying together. I also believed that if I was able to make that change while staying together, I would be far more solid and secure in it than if I did it by splitting. I would be working on the part of me that wanted to be enmeshed and teaching it to be otherwise... .rather than just cutting it free from the enmeshment.

Turned out my wife wasn't willing/able to do that, so we did split. Turns out in retrospect, I think I dodged a bullet, as looking back at how hard it was, I'm very much afraid I wouldn't have succeeded the way I did if we had stayed together. But I'll never know. I suspect I would have been stronger and done better than I now fear if we had tried for longer. Perhaps it would have taken a bit longer, but I'm pretty sure I would have got there.

Is it possible to have a r/s with him and not lose yourself? Yes, but it will challenge you to your core. And I believe you will learn incredible things about yourself trying. Will it work out that way? Will he be capable? You have no certainty.

You can only know if it still feels worth trying on your part.

Unicorn,

Checking in again on some of your threads. 

These are powerful statements and I think there is a lot here for you to think on and then act on in your r/s.

If you take a big picture look at "dealing with" a pwBPD, many of them have a poor sense of self and they look to their r/s partner for stability (instead of themselves).  So, when they perceive their partner changing, it should come as no surprise that they don't enjoy that and will "lash out", say weird things to let you know that they would rather have their "old world" back.

I encourage you to proceed on your journey of finding you and figuring out the r/s that you want.  Then after a while of stability in this new situation, your pwBPD should calm down some once they get used to the new normal.

I suspect that is where Patientandclear is going with her comments.  I agree that you gaining clarity and settling into that clarity will help immensely.

FF

I appreciate everyone's input.

My daughter has been sick for two weeks so I haven't been able to participate on the board as much.

I will try to respond more in depth later today.

I can say initially that I think that ambiguity is a part of life, and I'm not sure that I want to be responsible for making things crystal clear for my partner.

It is not possible to change the relationship into a friendship, it started out as a romantic relationship from the start.

When I state I'm not comfortable having a partner that's married to someone else that doesn't mean that I can change the relationship into a friendship.

For me that means that I have to keep as much distance as I can so that I can feel free to make my own decisions.

I will respond more in depth later.

I can say that if I have a resentment its that I have to do so much work to make the relationship comfortable for my partner. I'm not sure I'm willing to do that anymore. The ambiguity is on his side, he is the one who is married, not me. I'm crystal clear, I'm single, I have no strings attached. His marital status is what complicates the relationship, nothing on my side. He's going to have to deal with his own complications, in my opinion.

The best thing I can do in my opinion is keep my distance to protect myself until this whole thing is resolved.

Is the bolded statement something you wish to reconsider?

You opinion and plan about protecting yourself seems reasonable and something you can accomplish.


FF

unicorn2014,

Has he given you the divorce filing papers?

There is no case with the clerk of courts docket yet.

I have realized that I don't want my boundaries to be dependent on his actions.

I am not conducting myself in a romantic manner towards him and I am not responsible for his displays of affection towards me, nor are they a reflection on me.

I was in a very different place emotionally when I met him online over 3 years ago. Back then when I found out he was married it wasn't a problem. Today it is.

Our relationship is fundamentally different now.


I am still taking care of a sick teen so its a bit hard for me to focus on this thread right now.

To me, this sounds a bit like a rationalization. Ie, he didn't meet your demand (although he said he would - dishonest again), and instead of reacting to it with "ok I've had enough" you rationalize it by changing yourself and your perspective instead. This is the path of losing yourself to these people. Please be careful.

I get that my partner is a dishonest person, from the big things to the little things. I also think some of that dishonesty is because he offers things he doesn't have. That is all I can say at this point. I will check the clerk of courts docket site and let you know if anything turns up today.

Perhaps this is semantics... .but I see offering something you don't have is pure and simple dishonesty... .not a reason for dishonesty.

I could speculate on reasons why he does this, perhaps being insecure, believing you wouldn't love him without being offered more than he actually can offer you today... .but the reasons don't change the result... .being dishonest/deceptive with you.


You can do that... .but I think you will find more peace/progress examining your own feelings about this, and accepting him as somebody who has very limited capacity to be forthright with you than you will find checking whether he was honest or dishonest with you one more time... .

Grey Kitty, I agree, and he checked the clerk of courts website himself this morning and told me he was not happy because it hadn't posted yet. I was more thinking along the lines of financial things, he said he would put money on the starbucks card he gave me "so I could get out of the house" and would give me money for dbt and therapy and he did neither. Of course I couldn't go to dbt and therapy this week because my daughter was sick, but that's another story. What all comes down to is I don't need him for anything, those things are my responsibility: coffee, dbt, therapy, not his.

In terms of his pending divorce, I'm trying to think of any of my past partners might have been married without me knowing it. I know at least one man was separated, another man was living with his girlfriend at the time.

Im a little confused as to why you would look for hidden marriages farther in your past.

It seems unlikely. While deceptive people abound, they don't all do it the same way.

If you put up with deception for a long time after learning about it with prior partners, that is a tough pill to swallow, and one well worth looking at.

Ask why you wanted to believe people... .instead of why they deceived you. You can change your side of it in the future.

No, I didn't put up with deception, I'm saying that I had casual partners in the past who might have had an estranged wife that I didn't know about. I don't want to believe anyone. I'm actually quite cynical, maybe even jaded, hopefully not bitter.

My heart really goes out to you. It has to be incredibly painful to be checking court dockets online to see if your married loved one has filed for divorce. I don't mean that badly. It just shows how off the rails we can get with BPD loved ones. We start with being idealized, thinking of marriage... .the next we are responsible for seeing if they have filed for divorce. Or, in my case, looked into the rings they promised years ago.

I don't think you should be checking with court dockets. I think you should take the attitude that if he wants a divorce and gets a divorce he will naturally show you the papers. It's not your job to be the Investigator General, and he is sucking you into making you responsible. He's responsible. He is totally sucking you into being the bad guy cop who checks up on him.

I know the hard part of this, because my BPD boyfriend has promised marriage *(when he isn't recycling me) for three years. Recently I got sucked into a similar drama. He spoke about getting rings. He said, "I will call the jewelers tomorrow." Tomorrow didn't happen. I made the mistake of letting him suck me into checking. I mean, really... .if these guys wanted to marry us they done it by now. I've seen my BPD boyfriend get more motivated about a cheeseburger than marrying me. I am finally at a point where I am able to assess that without taking it personally. Because it is really not about you or me. It's about them.

Can you accept him if he doesn't get divorced? That's the question I am dealing with my boyfriend. It won't be a marriage if I force him into it. Honestly, I wonder if a lot of the drama isn't their shame focused way of diverting attention from their fears. If he gets divorced and marries you, what then? You know him in ways another woman would not. That is a scary proposition for a BPD.

He's not sucking me into being responsible , its my curiosity and I have a custom made engagement ring that I took off until I see that he's divorced. He proposed to me before he even met me, and that was over three years ago. He can't physically show me the papers because he lives in another state.

I do agree I shouldn't be checking.

Marrying me was his idea not my idea.

When you say two things like this together, I don't see you owning your own actions.

Yes, he gave you a ring and asked you to marry him. This is true.

And you accept it, and put the ring on.

You fully participated in that decision, even though he initiated it. Marraige requires two willing participants. So does engagement. You can say "no" or "maybe" or "I'm not ready" when presented a ring. As far as I know,  you said "yes". And you can change your mind after saying "yes".

The healthy thing is to acknowledge that you said "yes" in the past, and that you have changed your mind as of now to something else, in this case, due to new information (that he's still married).

Grey kitty, I was  saying that to clarify things for the other posters sake who wasn't familiar with my story. I am not confused.

I disagree with "you shouldn't check the court dockets".

You should check them. This is your life. If the dishonesty continues from your partner, you should be knowing about it. That being said, I am doubtful that getting into arguments with him is likely of any benefit. You already laid your boundary, so there isn't much to do except continue to enforce it for your own peace of mind.

Thank you Daniel for an alternate perspective! Yesterday he told me there was nothing posted before I had a chance to check. I'm happy to report he hasn't asked to FaceTime me in 2 weeks so that's progress. I'm comfortable with where the relationship is at now: waiting for his divorce case to show up in the court system. We are not fighting, I am not enmeshed, I am thinking independently , I have friends, I'm thinking critically. It's fair to say things are healthy.

 

So, let's assume that one day you check the computer and there is a case filed.  Then what?


I'm still a bit curious why the divorce is being discussed or talked about in any manner.  I was under the impression that a decision has been made a while back that you would take space until there is clarity about the divorce.

Talking about a divorce action that is still not yet filed doesn't seem to be taking space. 

Has the plan changed?  Not asking about his plan, I'm interested in yours.

FF

What do you mean by taking space? If you mean no contact there was a discussion of that being emotional abuse and I didn't go that route. If you mean not talking about the divorce, are you suggesting I not say another word about it? I actually didn't bring it up yesterday, he did. He said he was annoyed and when I asked why he said nothing had posted yet so he was going to have to call his lawyer.