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yesterday i got a random facebook message from my ex asking if she could call, normally these things dont go well but she apologized for the entire year we were together. She said for cheating, lying, driving my emotions crazy, and dealing with her for longer than anyone else. she said she always thinks of me and that she still loves me. And during the convo it felt lie a huge weight being lifted off my chest, i guess that's the closure i wanted. I love that girl with everything in me and i wish things didn't have to happen like they did, transitioning to living my life without her has been the hardest most painful thing i've done. So do you think it's over for good guys? any response would be appreciated

you are one of the few lucky ones... .I'm glad for you.

Hi HH

Is what over for good? The relationship itself, your feelings for her or her pursuing you?

Slippery slope you are contemplating walking upon, my friend.

3 years of NC with my ex, we had to ride together to a conference and we talked along the way. That led to innocent texting, which led to a friendship, led to flirting, then a romantic r/s.  During that ride, she apologized profusely for what had happened to us 3 years ago.  She seemed like an entirely different person.  She seemed so much different.

We had a year long romantic r/s.  She wasn't any different.  Maybe in that moment, in the beginning, she felt she was/could be, but that didn't stop her from abusing me this past year (most of it I didn't even know).

Don't fall for the siren song.  Turn your ship and steady the course. It's hard... .I know.

that's what I'm afraid of

Referring to the relationship

Thank you for the acknowledgment, Im not sure what happens from here though

Mine seemed like an exception to the rule.  All the way up to the end this time, she took responsibility for "messing up" the r/s.  She apologized and sent hints to me she wanted another chance.  However, when she saw that I wasn't going to do that, she completely changed.  That's when the true colors came out.  She cut me out entirely and hasn't looked back since.  Less than a month after we ended (officially), she had a dozen roses delivered to her desk and she left the deliberately where she knew I'd see them.  Simply put, she isn't a nice person.  At the very least, it's immature to do that to someone you claimed was "the light of" her life. Trust me, don't go down that slope again, no matter how nice she appears. 

I'm not saying yours is doing that, but it's possible.  Just because she's showing you this side, doesn't mean it's the actual side.  They're like icebergs. I truly believe that.

My ex apologised to me many, many times. He is still lying though, making manipulative comments, idealizes me, then devalues me, pushes and pulls me etc. I wish i could tell you that your ex may be different... .I don't know though... .I am not sure they will ever be able to control these behaviors without many MANY years of therapy

I got nothing even resembling an apology or anything even resembling guilt or remorse.  Heck, I didn't even get acknowledgement that we ever had anything together other than friendship even though at one time we were talking marriage.

What I did get was the distinct impression I was blamed for everything.  Reality was likely horribly twisted to accommodate this view so she could see herself as the victim and innocent of any wrong doing.  I will admit it has been very difficult dealing with this.

I am sure it is C.Stein. I just want to assure you that whether or not they apologise, the end result is the same though... .Their bad and hurtful behavior doesn't change... .  I hope this thought gives you some peace.

DBT isn't a magic bullet.  It's not a cure, it's a management system and there's no guarantee you'd see improvement.  Plus, you wouldn't see that improvement for at least several years. In the meantime, you'd continue to be abused and cycled through.  Even if it were effective, the person at the end of that journey may not be who you wanted to be with anyway.

It's heck to say this, but going along with them on this journey simply isn't worth that.  There's a member here that had chose to do it only to be discarded at the end anyway because their partner didn't really take DBT seriously.  They endured abuse after abuse over it and in the end their sacrifice didn't count to the pwBPD.  Sad, but true.


While J would take 'responsibility', she would always nullify it with an explanation.  "I'm sorry I dated B for a month without you knowing it. But, you made me because of x,y,z." Or "I know you never really trusted me. I never gave you a reason to, but that shouldn't matter. No matter how much good I'd do, you'd always wonder in the back of your mind" (that's a direct quote from her, btw).  So just because they'll apologize or whatever, doesn't mean they were really apologizing.  J seemed to always be minimizing, shifting, gaslighting, and straight up blaming others for her actions.  

Even at the end, she blamed me for the failure of our r/s.  "You're leaving me now, just when we started to have a chance to be together".  No, it wasn't me who kept us in limbo.  It wasn't me who had lied about my divorce and no it wasn't me who dated yet ANOTHER guy while telling me she wanted to "work it out like we always did".  She briefly admitted that she had lied to me most of the year but quickly followed that with "but I felt like you were using me most of the time".  Complete and utter bull$hit, the truth is I was the one used most of the year. Projection at its finest.

My BPDex could not take credit for any negative actions she did. It was always my fault no matter how ridiculous the claim. All the way to the very end. Closure was never an option with her. I'm glad to hear that your ex gave you that benefit of the doubt. I've thought about that for a long time. Like when or if she would ever clue into her horrible behaviours and irrational bickering. I know I'll never get an apology from her. She's too self centered of a person

I've gotten apologies for things she has done during our relationship (questionable or complete lack of sincerity), nothing at all post discard.  I was simply ghosted completely and if I hadn't reached out to give some stuff back to her I probably would have never heard from her again.  

She also had the same problem with admitting something she did was wrong or bad.   She always had a reason, excuse, some way to justify the action/behavior and thereby avoiding taking responsibility for it.   You are right that when the apology is not heart felt and sincere without making excuses or attempts to justify then it means nothing ... .but it would be nice to hear it now anyhow.

To say without question that things won't ever change is in my opinion the same as their black and white thinking. It's not the norm in these situations, but it has happened. Never say never.

That being said, my ex has given me countless apologies, and while I believe it is genuine remorse he feels, I've gone back enough times to learn that there's a difference between apologizing and making amends. And by making amends I mean long-term, consistent actions that show an unwavering commitment to getting better. And the ability to be accountable for his mistakes and not try to sweep them under the rug as if it never happened.

In my case, his fear of abandonment runs so deep he doesn't realize that the only way things would change is if he gets better for himself, not because he wants me back. If your ex is determined, she will. But until she makes visible progress, I would keep my distance and try not to get my hopes up.

HH

It takes two to tango. If she does pursue you with renewed vigour then you still have the choice of whether to acquiesce to her advances. You've admitted that detaching was hard, but it still sounds like you're vulnerable to rekindling with someone who hurt you very bad. She may change however, and it might be possible to go the distance.

Do you accept that the lovely girl you fell in love with was only part of her character and that her dark side is also who she is? If therapy mitigates the darkness you probably won't be left with the wonderful girl you first met.  Could you live happily ever after with a vanilla version of your ex?


Fanny

The only times I ever got an apology from my exBPD was when she was trying to manipulate to get me back.  We broke up and I did NC for 3 months but she came around right before xmas saying she was so sorry and how things would be different.  She did things different for 4 days and when I finally committed all-in to being with her again, she went right back to being the way she was before -- also going back on her apologies and blaming me again for everything.

Don't want to say this will be the situation with you, but with everything I've read up on BPD, what happened to me with my exBPD seems pretty common.

They put on the mask until they hook you, and then the mask comes off.  This could be 3 days, or a year.  As for my situation, I've learned after taking her back 3 times over 2 years when she's had "sincere" apologies and made "vows", "promises" and "oaths", that I can't believe a word that comes out of her mouth because it was all part of an elaborate manipulation.  

I've learned I didn't even know the person I "loved" for 4 years.  

I appreciate your insight into the matter

I'm sorry to hear things didn't go the way you wanted

Those are some good points, idk I guess deep down all I wanted was to be accepted by the girl I fell for

I'm trying my best, I used to be good at talking to girls but after my relationship it kinda made me anti social towards other women

Sorry to hear that, never say never though

I'll just say it's highly improbable then 

Oh, and IF they did change, I'd immediately go buy a lottery ticket because the universe just gave you the sign you're about to be a multimillionaire.

Thanks Lonely_Astro this made me  lol   :)

My ex would apologize. Then slowly start to blame me afterward.

Me too - I would get a sincere apology with tears and all, and within a week, she would be going back on every word of her apology and blaming me again and making me out to be crazy.

Why do I still want her back?   Sigh... .:'(

"That's very big of you to say that.  It means a lot to me.  Thank you.  Despite our differences, I've always hoped you find happiness.  I still do.  I believe you will find it if you haven't already.  I wish you nothing but the best.  Bye."

Ah, yes the classic "I'm sorry I got caught but it's your fault" apology.  I think we've all been there.

But, I miss J sometimes too.  It's been a lot more here the past few days. I miss her companionship, but I also know that she was just as fake as she was real to me... .as much as a paradox that is.

I agree, I think (hope) it's the companionship I miss the most.  All the "good times" I ruminate on were few and far between.  And as time went on, they became fewer and further between.  Sometimes I feel like I need someone to give me a good hard slap in the face to wake me up out of this delusional state of mind.

HH, pray to god that hopefully it's over for good! if it's over, it's very good news for you. you can't see it now but one day you will...

My problem is that J is very high functioning.  She's also a master at deception and misdirection that comes along with that HF ability.  What I mean is that I didn't really know how far back things "weren't right" until just recently.  Ignorance is sometimes bliss.  We were together for a year and it seems like we were really only 'together' for a few months, the following months were more going through the paces for her than being in an actual r/s with me.  Or, at least it seems that way.  I really can't be sure because there was so much stuff mixed in together that it has scrambled my brain.

There were great times.  There were not so great times.  It was a mix of mostly good times, but the not so good were one heck of a swing.  The biggest revelation for me was that she lied the entire year about her marital status (she claimed to be getting a divorce, when the fact was she was simply estranged).  I'm still not sure if she held onto M in case we didn't work out or if she wanted to see if her feelings for M would come back (and thus, leave me).  Of course, there were some others in the mix of this ordeal as well (N, B, and R - those are the ones I know/feel confident about).

Things seemed to be leveling out in September, only to immediately crash in October.  Of course, we never recovered.  Though, thinking about it, I think I had as much to do with the DNR as she did.  She tried toward mid/late December to come back around me and I wouldn't let her.  By that point I had found out she had (at the very least) went on 2 dates with R and I finally said to myself that I couldn't go on any longer.  My logical side said it was time, my emotional side was screaming to give her another shot - in an attempt to make it work.  But, I forced logic over emotion.  Things have happened since then to make me realize that I may or may not have meant anything to her in this past year as well as beyond.  She always claimed I meant something, but I'm just not sure.

Good for you for doing that, it's the hardest thing to listen to reason rather than your heart because the heart breaks so much even if it is the right thing to do.  

My exBPD and I were together for 4 years and it wasn't until the last two years that things got ugly and that is only because I was on the fence for the first two years and I know she knew it.  Because as soon as I fully committed to her, everything went sideways.  Now that I look back to the beginning, I can see how all the "good" things she did in the r/s that I thought were her character where the idealization stage.  Nothing proved this more than our two week reconciliation over the xmas break where the whole cycle played out over 5 or 6 days.  Seeing it compressed like that in a short time frame gave me a look at how that six days played out just like the previous 4 years and the phoniness of her giving and accountability.

I used to think she was a very giving person, but I later came to figure out (in the last month) that everything she gave "selflessly" was extremely selfish and self-centred of her.  She let my parents store things in her garage even around the time we were on again off again over the summer.  My parents thought it was so kind and generous of her.  But it was all a game to keep me tethered to her.  When I told her in the summer I wanted to end it she started threatening me about my parents stuff in her garage so I see now that she used all these "good deeds" as leverage.

Bottom line is that I never knew the real her until just after christmas when she dumped me again just days after telling me she would do anything to work with me and stay with me forever and ever and ever... . lol lol lol.  And then after telling me there was no way she would move on from me (another subtle way to keep me connected to her at some level), I see her on an EXPENSIVE dating site as a paying member, which means she was probably on it even before we got back together for the two weeks over xmas.  Man was I duped.  Sounds like your situation.  

I think I know what happened now.  I went NC with her in late September.  She stalked me for a while and I'm pretty sure she started dating.  Then after her dating wasn't going so well, she came back to me before xmas with her "apologies" to get me back.  Then when I held her accountable to her "apologies", she dumped my sorry butt again because she didn't actually want to be accountable at all.  So transparent now looking back.   

But like you said, Lonely_Astro, that part of me still wants her back.  But I know that part of me is the part that craves the high that I used to get from the idealization stage.  Reason tells me this will just never happen again.  So here's to you and I continuing to have strength in staying away.  I'm over a month again of NC.  Hoping to hold strong!

Congrats on your month!

J was able to conceal a lot from me because we were having an affair, so I wasn't always available.  It's still not a fact I'm proud of, but it is what it is.  But, I also see that as a reason for us to have been more open and honest with each other.  Just because we started as an affair, doesn't grant carte blanche to do whatever without letting the other know.

Anyway, as time progressed, I was always open and honest with J about where I was in my leaving/divorce process.  She always would say she understood or (most of the time) "I don't want to know.  That's your business.  I'll be here for you when you're ready."  I always found that odd, but she wouldn't elaborate.  When the time came for us to "be together" (i.e., I had left, proceedings were underway), we had a fairly decent month.  After that, she was gone.  My state has a very long 'reconciliation period' for people with kids.  I mention that because it plays into why she left, according to her.

She discarded me the first part of October.  We were in limbo until about mid-December (when I found out that she had seen R).  This was after we had talked in mid-Nov about ending it, in which J had said she didn't want to, that she wanted to work it out with me.  2-3 weeks later she was dating R.  All the while my divorce process had been underway (estranged, hadn't/did filed, 'reconciliation period', etc).  J got mad because I "refused to talk to her about" that (which wasn't brought up until the end of December during our final week of talking), even though I had tried several, several times to do so.  J saw me as being unsure if I wanted a divorce and to be with her, so I was going to abandon her (even though she admitted she had abandoned me in October).  So, her dating R was my fault.  Just like her dating B in July was my fault.  Oh, and she had not officially filed for divorced herself until the end of October 2015 (even though she had told me they had filed in December 2014), her ex-husband (M) had filed by the way.  I just happened to be in her department at work when they served her.  But, anyway, it was my lack of communication and her lack of trust in me that led to our demise, according to her.

At the very end, when she saw no going back, all she could focus on was whether or not my wife and I were going to reconcile.  I told her that wasn't any of her business or concern any longer, since she had made her choices.  I told her my life was now private and that since she had moved on, whatever decision I made from this point on wouldn't influence her life and therefore wasn't of her concern.  Harsh?  Yes.  Untrue? No.  For those wondering, my wife has requested we go to counseling (which we have started).  I don't know how that will go.  Only time will tell.

Anyway, my point is, is that J started 2015 off totally different than she ended 2015.  But, the truth was we had started off as a total lie.  She took responsibility for all the things she had done to me 3 years ago.  She seemed totally different.  But, it was a mask... .a lie.  In the end, she was exactly the same.  She had just refined her skills over the course of 3 years.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I was (or am) a saint.  I made mistakes along the way with her (and myself).  But, out of all this, I can say one thing: I never lied to J.  Not once.  Thats all she did to me, it seems... .along with a lot of other stuff that I don't even want to think about.

Thanks Lonely_astro.  It's amazing to read your story and even my own when I write it out to look at it in black and white and think "why do I want this person back?".

I phoned a crisis line one day because I was in severe distress and when the person asked me to describe the relationship, I found myself shocked by what I was saying when telling her how I was treated.  I can't believe I endured that and tolerated it.  And the twisted part of course being that a part of me still wants it back.

It's hard when you get off the rollercoaster because solid ground feels so strange it's almost uncomfortable and scary as hell!

If you haven't, read about trauma bonds.  It explains a lot.  I found it helpful when I discovered it.  There are no two ways around it, we have been exposed to abuse.  We were in an abusive relationship with our pwBPD.  We stayed for our own reasons, some we knew and others we didn't.  The end result is we are dealing with the fallout and aftermath of being discarded... .the ultimate sign of abuse.  Were we ever people to our exes?  I have no idea.  I still think I was merely an object.  Anyone could've been me to her. There was no personalization to her, though she was personal to me. That's how I feel, anyway.

Thanks, yes I will check that out for sure.  When I mentioned to one counsellor some of the stupid things I did, she stated that my reactions were "trauma responses" so I get where you're coming from for sure! 

I feel much the same as you do, that it wasn't really personal.  I mean how can it be personal when on the second date (the first being a quick coffee), she was jumping up and down for joy saying "baby baby baby!".  I vaguely sensed something was off at that moment, but said fxxk it and dove in with both feet.  No way someone can have those types of feelings for someone on a second date.  Was part of the idealization phase I guess where she was building me up to hook me.  And given where I was at in my life at the time, it didn't take much to hook me! haha.  I guess I can kind of laugh in retrospect... .

Mine denies everything

the rages

the scars she gave me from scratching me

the verbal abuse

threatening to punch my 14 year old in the face

and so on... .

In time, you will look back and laugh about how absurd it all really was.  What you did, what she did, how you put up with it in the name of "love", how you were blind to the bad because the good felt so great.  What I've been struggling with over the past few days is missing her physically.  There was so much passion, so much intimacy there.  Or, at least, it felt that way to me.  I don't know why it's been heavy on my mind but it has been.

I was NC 3 years with her.  It was easier for me then, I think, because of how flash in the pan we were.  We were together 4 months, never physical during that time.  We were close but not that close, if that makes sense.  I can't say the same for this past year.  We were as close as anyone could be... .both emotionally and physically.  It just wasn't what she wanted or could sustain.  It's sad it played out this way, but c'est la vie.

I hear you, the sex with my exBPD was pretty amazing, passionate beyond belief, almost.  I remember reading an article on Shrink4men.com about how that is pretty common as they have a unique ability to sense what it is you want and need and feed that to you.  I know my ex certainly discovered what I needed easily and our sex and passion just got deeper and deeper as time went on, even as our relationship got rockier, the sex got better.  It was as though that was the only way she knew how to show "love" or perhaps that was love to her.  Because outside of the bedroom it was a totally different person.  Sounds like we're having the same struggles.  I've been on my own since the last round ended on December 30 and thinking maybe I need this time to heal before I try putting myself back out there again because I don't want to fall for the same thing or a similar woman that will meet my needs in the bedroom to make up for this loss.

It's also a weapon.  A method of control.  When we would get rocky, she would want sex.  Otherwise, it was hit and miss.  At first, it started out being physical pretty consistently.  As time went on, I pretty much instigated it.  When I think about it, I can only think of a handful of times she approached me about it.  But, with that said, she hated her body (even though she had/has zero reason for that). 

The last couple of weeks we were together, we slept together pretty much every night.  I guess that's where I get stuck in how it all changed.  We weren't fighting, everything seemed fine, our future was closer than ever, and just like that she was gone.  It still makes me sad, regardless of her being BPD or not. 

The end of any r/s is tough, especially if you were knocked down like most of us were.  I wish I could have a conversation with her, but I can't.  That's what makes it so much more difficult.

Same here, I want to show her everything I've read on BPD and convince her that she has it so she can finally really own her part in the toxicity of our relationship and show me some real empathy for what I went through (total victim mentality, I recognize that). 

I want to understand why she pulled away or pushed me away the more I showed her love and intimacy.  It just doesn't compute because if I had done the things I did with her for my ex-wife (not a pwBPD), my relationship with my ex-wife would have blossomed.  Whereas it went sideways with my exGF with BPD. 

I keep obsessing about making sense of it all.  Maybe it is a frivolous endeavour.  I guess it's part of the grieving process and hopefully will end soon. 

Sadly, you'll never get those answers.  My ex is diagnosed, medicated, and (allegedly) going to DBT.  If anyone has a chance for success, it was me.  It didn't happen and I still ended up the bad guy before it was all said and done with. 

Trying to make sense of it all will drive you mad.  You can't apply logic to an illogical event.  Trust me, I've been down this road twice now.

In my situation my ex contacted me again and also apologized. She apologized in a way she never had. It was deep, sincere, and seemingly genuine. It took a couple of weeks but I finally caved in and started chatting with her. She was texting me non stop... .and then suddenly, she was gone about 2 months later. I asked her if everything was ok and her reply was yeah... .just been tired. I haven't heard from her since.

Every situation is different but this is a very real possibility you have to consider. For me, it hurt just as much if not worse than the initial break up. Everything I had learned and research just went out the window. Can you handle that?

Don’t do this if you can. BPD always check us if we’re on the hook. They have no feelings toward us. They always flirting. You want pain – go back. You’ll get it.  I couldn’t resist. I went back. I lost my selfesteem and she left me again. My story as copy of many others.

Same thing for me. My ex wrote more than one e-mail with apology. It was deep, sincere, caring, loving. And when finally you feel better after reading such an e-mail, few months later she writes about how she felt when she made love with the replacement with whom she is no longer. Duh! 

Devastating read.

My advice, don't go back that way. It's a dead-end.

I'm sorry to hear you've been through this a couple of times.  How are you doing now?  

I, like many, took a second bite of the Apple.  It didn't end well.  At the onset of my second go around with J, I was a happy, confident, go-with-the-flow type of guy.  By the end of the year, I was a depressed, paranoid shell of my former self.  I never let her get my self esteem, not from a lack of trying on her part though.  I went in armed with the knowledge of cluster b disorders and though it still hurt me, I refuse to let her keep me down.  I miss the J I knew, unfortunately I didn't know her as well as I thought.  

Anyway, keep marching.

Mine told me that she had a series of journal entries going back to when we first started a year ago.  Supposedly they are full of the truth.  She told me that her T told her to give them to me, but she didn't.  I doubt they even exist and if by some chance they do, I'll never read them, even if she gave them to me.  I'm afraid of what the truth would hold. 

You're right: it's a dead end.

Would that be subjective or objective truth?  I always try to be as objective as possible, especially when emotions are involved.  I try my best to step away from the emotions and see things for what they truly are, not what I might want them to be or tainted by emotions.   My ex on the other hand has a very subjective truth, which is defined by whatever is least damaging to her own self.

Haha, no kidding I have a friend that tells me this all the time - that I'm driving myself crazy with all the questions of "why".  I recall many times my exBPD telling me "this is how I am, I flip-flop on my emotions all the time, take it or leave it".

I would reply to her by saying "it's one thing to flip flop on what restaurant you want to eat at on the weekend, but to flip flop on family, marriage, love, co-habitating from one day to the next is emotional and psychological abuse... ."

It was never to any avail.  Sigh... .  Someone tell me when they come up with a pill that can remove selective memories.

My presumption is it would be objective truth.  As in J admitted at the end that she had lied to me the majority of the year.  She claims these entries are full of her true feelings/thoughts and that they would give me answers to various questions I had asked during the year.  She told me, outright, that she had not trusted me enough to be truthful and she didn't know why because I had always treated her "right" and never gave her a reason to not trust me.  So, according to her, her DBT therapist told her to give me the entries.  J claimed she was going to do this when we exchanged Christmas gifts, but she said she wasn't ready to give them to me because she wasn't finished with them (and that she would give them to me when she was - I saw that as a way to keep me tethered).

We are now 2 months post "official" breakup, are NC, and I still haven't seen these mythical entries.  Frankly, I don't believe they exist.  And if they did, would I really want to read them?  I mean, cmon, they can't contain anything I want to read/know really.  Either they confirm all my suspicions about the past year (puke inducing) or she pronounces all the love in the world for me (and makes me doubt my choice to leave the madness).  Either way, no good can come of reading them, if they exist at all.  J has a penchant for lying, I suspect these entries to be yet another lie fabricated to make me believe in the Easter bunny a little longer.



That's the probably, they flip flop on emotions as quickly as we do about where to eat sometimes.  Imagine that sensation you get when you trip and you aren't sure if you're going to fall or not.  That's how many BPDs feel all the time.  They can't trust their emotions, so they are always unsure if they're going to fall or not, so to speak.  I've never pretended that living with BPD or any other disorder is 'easy'.  But I also refuse to give them a pass for abusing people, J included.  I stuck around on hope.  I had hoped we could work through things, I expected difficult times.  I expected lying/manipulation/ST.  I even expected her to cheat at some point (though I had hoped it wouldn't happen and made it a boundary for me).  We discussed all that on a regular basis.  I did all I could... .it didn't matter.

Even today, 2 months after "officially" ending, I realize every thing I said/did with her didn't matter.  The r/s wasn't about me or us, it was about her.