BPDFamily.com

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=289770.60;topicseen

Link above is to catch anyone up that is late to this lovely party.

Went to check out a church yesterday as a family.  Went ok.  Things seemed "normal" until it was bedtime for the kids.

I "caught" my wife taking a shower in the kids bathroom (upstairs).  Was working on laundry and that is why I went into that room.  Honestly just said/asked "do you like the shower better up here?" as I was curious why she would take a shower up there instead of using our nice master bath.  She really didn't say anything.  I said I have nice clean crisp sheets on the bed looking forward to sharing them with you (or something to that effect). 

She stammers around saying she is really tired and may fall asleep putting kids to bed.

I said, "Ohh" and walked out of room. 

She ended up sleeping with kids again.

This morning she was "on a mission" moving around quickly.  Got everyone up 45 minutes earlier than normal.  I said hey, was a bit pushy going in for a hug and things like that.  It was obvious she was having none of it.

Not really nasty, just being obvious her mind was elsewhere.  Not sure what she accomplished with extra 45 minutes.  Kids did clean up their rooms.

Anyway, when she left I made sure I was by the door and was a little in your face about leaning in for a kiss.  She offered a peck on the cheek and left.

I didn't really have a thought our purpose for doing that, but was being very obvious about "taking the temperature" of the r/s.

So far have had a very productive morning around the house.

Session 2 with T tomorrow.

FF

I can't think of a better time to give your wife space than Monday morning before she has to go to work.

FF, I hope you got the message- that by showering in the kids's bathroom and not sleeping in your bed  that this is the message she is likely sending you:

I don't want to have sex with you at this moment

I know you have a belief system that in marriage you each have access to each others' bodies, but marriage is a union of mind, body, and soul. Although you are still married, there are emotional issues between you that are not resolved. Having sex when emotionally disconnected can be distressing to some people.

I think, as Kit Cat said: your wife seems to be wanting some space. It isn't helping that you are honing in on her space at the moment trying to hug or kiss her. It can feel as if you are probing her emotional space to check the emotional temperature.

It's good that you didn't push her sleeping with you when she said she would likely fall asleep with the kids.

Your wife is taking a shower in the kids' bathroom= keeping her nude body private.

Asking her why she is doing this, if she likes the shower better, isn't likely to get the real response if it is to keep her body to herself. Inviting her to sleep in the nice clean sheets isn't likely to get a positive response either.


If she wanting some space, it is possible to honor this wish?

I understand your point of view. I have read that for men, sex is a way of reaching out and connecting with their partners. There isn't anything wrong with that. However, sex when emotionally things are out of sinc is sometimes difficult, and if a person's main way of connecting is emotionally, and emotionally there are issues and still  an expectation for sex, it can feel uncomfortable.

I'll jump in late to your theme on the previous thread, FF, and echo some of the other women who have replied. I think it's a lot easier for men to compartmentalize sexuality apart from emotional relationships. I know you've said your wife's love language is physical touch and you're aware when she pulls back in this area that there's something troubling her.

I've known very few women who can compartmentalize sex in the way that men can. For most of us, if there is something amiss with the relationship, desire extinguishes. We can go through the motions and sometimes that serves as a repair.

The cycling of anger to sexuality makes me truly wonder what is going on with your wife's emotions. Is she trying to repair the relationship through sex? Is she trying to get her sexual needs met apart from fixing her relationship with you?

I understand that you're being in the moment and enjoying the "good wife" and tolerating the "bad wife" but I wonder if you're unintentionally reinforcing bad behavior?

Yep, I honored it, but will be continue to be deliberate about "probing" or checking the temperature of her emotions.  Otherwise, it is a catch 22.  I will get a rage or attitude for not checking, not caring, whatever.  If I am going to make a mistake, I'll make a mistake over checking in too much.

Don't worry, if temp is off, I'll back off.

FF

I've been curious about this as well.

However, witholding sex out of some principle or because I am mad or trying to "make a point" seems like punishment to me.  I wouldn't want it done to me, so I'm not going to do it to someone else.

I'm open to thoughts on this.  Any ideas on how not reinforce bad behavior?

FF

Trying to imagine you "withholding sex," formflier, and can't quite conjure up the image.  :)

It could be a challenge to enforce boundaries with your wife regarding verbal and emotional abuse. There's been so much of it for so long.

That isn't how you described this day... .let me give you very concrete examples of what you did all day. Warning: I will be drill-sergeant blunt; I know you can take it.


Dude, she's trying to take a shower away from you. That is her wanting space.

DON'T ASK HER WHY... .nothing good will come of it.

Asking her why she is deviating from normal behavior (in a way to create distance from you) is invalidating her desire for space.


YOU DID IT AGAIN! She dodged the question, not wanting to be rude and tell you to stay away from her... .so you bluntly asked, and forced her to actively reject you (perhaps a little white lie there)


Were you surprised? You shouldn't have been!


OK, she's still avoiding you [I've never heard you say that she was "on a mission" or anything of the sort when it was good for your r/s with her]

What the heck are you getting in her face and making her reject you AGAIN for?


And you sound surprised about this rejection too?


Are you thinking that something good is going to happen about being in her face this time?


DUDE. Stop taking the !@#$!@# temperature. Your wife is NOT subtle about things being hot or cold with you. You had a pretty good idea when you "caught" her in the kids shower.

If your wife was an emotionally healthy, non-dysordered woman, you might well be justified in asking what is going on or looking for clarification when she goes cool or cold on you. But that isn't who she is, and operating that way isn't going to give you good results. I've got two suggestions for you here:

:thought: 1. Believe your intuition and emotions. When you have the first thought "hmmm, maybe something's wrong" or "she seems distant" or "watch out, here she goes again", trust yourself. You know her well, you are tuned into her moods. You don't need to confirm anything here!

:thought: 2. When she's cool/cold and wanting space, give it to her graciously. Don't challenge her. Don't ask her to confirm. Don't ask her why. All these things are invalidating, and won't help, and may push her to behaving worse, or staying in that state longer.

A better approach is to work on ways of letting her know that you are ready to welcome her back. Small kind gestures that she can accept, ignore, or respond positively to when her mood changes.

Similar to suggestions for how to deal with the silent treatment that I've seen and shared. In her head, phase one of ST/cold/rejection involves her being upset at you (justified or not). When that feeling passes, she may go to being a bit embarrassed by her behavior, and afraid to reach out to you for fear that you will give her a hard time for mistreating you. If you give her occasional reminders that you are safe, one may sink in and allow her to come back sooner.

This sounds like this may be a bit of a male/female difference in viewpoint.  Coming at this from a Christian perspective, Paul wrote that it was not a command, so there is some wiggle room here, but for the sake of argument let's say that God does not want you to deprive each other of sex.  Even if it was just Paul's opinion, he was an apostle so his suggestion should be taken seriously.

I totally get how women would not want to have sex when they are having issues with their spouse.  But there is also a difference between just having had a fight, and having a long term issue with your spouse.  For the short term issue, a cool off period would make sense, but I think for the long term issue, Paul's instructions would apply.  Some times, what you want to do, and what you should do are not the same thing.    It is easy to do what you want to do.  It is easy to have sex when you are happy with your spouse.  It is "easy" to divorce a spouse with BPD and look for another without BPD than to stick in a difficult marriage.  But often, the easy path brings even more problems down the road, and consequences are often anything but easy.

Back to waiting on sex until you are no longer angry with your spouse.  Can it result in a situation where it just makes the situation worse?  On the man side, he is upset that his wife won't have sex.  That can lead to anger or in the worst case infidelity.  On the other hand, if his needs were met, might he possibly be more loving to his wife?  On the woman's side, even if you feel "used", I suspect that there may still be some bonding that occurs.  Without sex, the resentment on both sides just grows.

Speaking in general terms, marriage is about giving.  If one side stops giving until they start receiving, I can't see how that is going to end well.  You aren't going to receive more by giving less.

Grey and others,

Good input, I see what you are saying.

So, if I am going to "make a mistake" should I lean to far in to the r/s and lean too far out.

It's a catch 22.  If I don't express enough interest, bad.  And if you express too much, bad.

So, if she is acting this way and I stay in my seat, she is at the door to leave and says "What?  You don't want to kiss me goodbye?"

Granted, she hasn't done that in a while, but she seems to be reaching back for many of her old tricks and tools.  This used to be a go to of hers.  To be consistent and not reactive, I kinda do the same routine and try not to vary it based on signals that she gives.

Thoughts?

FF

Yes, the entire post by Fian is reflective of my views.

Honestly I was about 50/50 on wanting sex.  I was 100 percent on wanting to relax and drift off to sleep with my "nice wife", touching and cuddling and all that.

In other words, if she had said, hey, I'm tired can I give you a raincheck I would have said sure, let's cuddle up and get some sleep.

FF

Are you sure it isn't you asserting yourself, and so are invalidating her wish for space?  

A while back I had a cold- one of those wake you up at night choking on your snotty nose colds. After a night of being up with it, I told my H. I wanted to sleep--- and then he probed the temp to see if I was in the mood. What's the problem with that? Well I had flat out told him the truth and he discounted that.

That's invalidating. I was angry that he didn't take me seriously, enough that I even imagined giving him a passionate snot ridden contagious kiss if he pushed the point.

Thankfully, he didn't.

Fian, I get that marriage is about giving, and I am happy to do plenty of that, but sometimes a person needs space and it may not have anything to do with the H. A snotty nose is not a gift, and at times, a gift to the spouse is respecting need for space- for both partners.

It seems I understand animals a lot better than people.  

So here goes, putting on my horse trainer's hat. If I give my horse a cookie when he gets in my personal space and bumps me, then he will think that is a perfectly fine way to behave.

If I tell him in a loud voice, "Get out of my space" and flail about with my arms and advance toward him until he retreats, then wait until he lowers his head and relaxes and then, and only then, give him a cookie, he will respect me. The next time he sees me and knows I have a cookie in my pocket, he will wait respectfully a polite distance away from me and be patient until I give him the cookie, rather than trying to extract it from my pocket himself.

Very simplistic, I know. How it applies to your wife, FF, I'm not sure. But what is troubling to me in hearing your account of your relationship is that I'm not hearing about some repair in between the unkind behavior and the sex. For the sake of brevity, you may not be writing about that. It seems to me that if its not there, then you may well be reinforcing the behavior you don't want.

I think it's great that you two can maintain a decent sexual relationship amidst the difficulties. However, something is up with your wife currently or else she wouldn't be avoiding you. Doing the same thing regardless of her response may be sending a message you don't realize you're sending. For many women it would be that you're just using her for sex.

If you define leaning in as trying to engage her in a positive/affectionate way, and leaning out as trying to get space away from her... .I'm not really talking about that balance.

What I'm talking about is "testing the waters" or "checking the temperature" or inquiring about any behavior which seems possibly to be leaning away from you/rejecting you/etc. You do it in ways that she has to actively (or passively, deniably) reject.

Let her lean out... .unchallenged. Avoid invalidating her when she does lean out.

In my loong example, if you had not challenged her three times already, I think the odds of her being receptive when you met her at the door would have been a lot higher.


You have a habit of getting up to kiss her goodbye at the door. Changing that is a different thing, and I can see why you might expect/fear a bad reaction on her part.

However, that (hypothetical) example is her changing from simply taking space away from you (which is a healthy thing to do, even if she doesn't do it very cleanly or clearly) ... .to being critical and verbally abusive toward you.

Side note on running hot/cold about sex, male/female attitudes and mental disorders.

Men (on average) are much more tolerant of / happy with sex without a deep emotional connection, and better able to compartmentalize to make this possible.

pwBPD live in the feelings-are-facts these-feelings-now-are-what-always-were-and-always-will-be land.

A female pwBPD probably still needs the emotional connection for sex, but because of the disorder, those emotions can spin on a dime! [FF's wife seems to do this!] Obviously a male pwBPD can do this just as fast, if not faster!

A female non- will be disturbed by the spin-on-a-dime thing a male pwBPD can do, probably turned off.

A male non- still has more ability to compartmentalize.

So this may "work" far better for FF and FF Wife than it would for say, for Cat Familiar and Cat Familiar H.

I'm guessing that the "You're only using me for sex" rabbit hole isn't FF Wife's usual dysregulation mode--at least I can't recall FF mentioning it before.

Good point, Grey Kitty. However, something is bothering Mrs. FF and she's pushing away any attempts FF is making at affection or intimacy.

Yes, I agree (I thought I mentioned it in what I wrote).  If today is a bad day, saying no to sex is perfectably reasonable imo from a Christian perspective.  However, when you have issues that drag on for weeks (which is where FF is right now), I doubt that abstaining from sex will make things better, and more likely will make things worse.

I think something is seriously bothering Mrs FF too.

I don't have the "using me for sex" issue. I don't think it's about that at all. However when sex is so compartmentalized that there isn't a connection when hearing " I have been up half the night with a cold" I can feel invisible.

I think sex is an important part of marriage that in general should not be denied to a spouse but not to the point where the needs and feelings of each spouse are not considered.

There have been posters who have mentioned their partners denying them sex for years. I think that's really destructive to a marriage. I don't see where Ff has this situation. I think his wife is indicating she needs space at the time but I don't get the impression that this is withholding. Sadly - I think this is part of a bigger marital crisis that has many angles to address.

I agree. Something is seriously bothering Mrs. FF. I don't think it involves sex in her marriage, which is why I've avoided mentioning it until now.

I was suggesting that the invalidation of FF seeking her when she needs space  or questioning her need for space is fueling the problem.

In addition, the household has a lot of upheaval and stress recently... .which she lacks good coping skills for.

From the formflier posts I've read over the months, I too believe this to be true.

ADDED: Formflier, I get the impression that you and your wife form a very powerful dyad. That the two of you are communicating with each other nearly constantly via verbal and non-verbal means. Events involving other people can fold into this communication in important ways. (The example of your wife demanding that you kiss her publicly during a church service comes to my mind.)

When you called CPS, I think you were trying to communicate with your wife and influence her behaviors. When she calls her parents, calls the police, threatens divorce, it seems too that she is trying to influence your behaviors.

A problem with this ongoing intensity may be that the two of you "block out the sun" for each other. Important other stakeholders in your relationship (the children) may get forgotten in the struggle. Which has gone on a very long time now, it seems.

I'm not so sure that there is actually emotional connection during sex with a pwBPD regardless of their gender. From what I've heard and read, sex is usually a way to control or give the illusion that everything is okay in the pwBPD's mind. Given Mrs. FF's accusations about infidelity on FF''s part and their background, it wouldn't surprise me if she thinks that sex will keep him from those imagined problems. There is no need for 'intimacy' or 'affection'.

Personally, I was tolerant of sex without deep emotional connection for a very long time, until it became an area of abuse, then it became too harmful for me to continue.

FF, what do you get out of being affectionate toward your wife?


Paul also wrote in the same section that spouses are not to separate/divorce, that should also be taken seriously, and earlier in the same letter, he wrote that we are not to associate with those who are verbally abusive.

My goodness. It sounds as though he would not be at all surprised to learn of the existence of bpdfamily.com, were he to return to this mortal plane.

Uhh, well, I get laid.   


It's relaxing, can let your cares float away.

It's been a couple houses since we have had a nice bubble tub.  Plenty of room for two of us in there.  So, "usually" sex involves firing up the candles, steaming hot water and a nice long soak.  Sometimes there is some sex activity in the tub, sometimes it's after a long soak.  Usually stay in there until the water gets tepid. 

But, in the tub we snuggle and enjoy each others company.  Don't talk about heavy subjects, just relax and shut out the rest of the world.

FF

Empath makes a good point about sex being a way to feel as if everything is OK. My H tends to take any kind of disinterest personally- even if the reason had nothing to do with him.

My parents ( BPD mom) had sexual problems and I knew TMI about it. As a kid, I don't think I understood all about sex and marriage but I made a strong opinion about not witholding sex or using it for control in the marriage I hoped to have. I was not prepared to have these tactics used on me.

So as Fian said- not having sex until the long term problems are solved could hurt more. Being aware of this I still had sex with my H if he wanted it even if he was not kind or loving to me at the time. He could compartmentalize it. I could not. I was not the kind of girl in college who liked to hook up. I don't criticize that. But I know that for me, sex had to be with love and sex without love was very hurtful emotionally. We have made strides to improve. Things are better and I believe that still having sex was better than not. That probably would have left no chance for recovery of the marriage, I think.  But that doesn't mean it was all OK. For my H, sex may have made him feel that things were OK, but that didn't work the same way for me.

This is why I am trying to get a message that if FFs wife is really hurting - not respecting her space may be hurtful to her. Sex to me was never about getting laid, relaxing, or letting go of stress. It can be that way for others. For me, having sex was sharing my heart and soul and it's pretty tough to do that when you feel that this part of you is not cherished.

Also, I think there's a fine line between co-dependency, enabling, and accepting the person for who they are. This can mean letting go of power struggles and yet still having boundaries. Sex can mean something different to different people. Somehow instinctually I knew that a power struggle over sex would cause more harm than I wanted to risk. However when it is the wife asking for space it could be that respecting that is better than not.

FF if your wife is upset about something - pushing into her space may feel as bad to her as withholding sex might be to a husband. We are different. Some of us can't compartmentalize and BPD might make the emotions even harder to deal with. You may find that doing this her way is less harmful than your way.

Dr. James Dobson wrote a good book about this "love must be tough" that if one spouse is pulling away- trying to get into their space doesn't work well to bring them back.

I'm pretty sure I confirmed another odd habit that has just come up in last couple weeks. 

If a pattern is emerging it is that during the week she moves into kids room.  She looks ready to bed down for the night.

You can all be happy to know that I didn't mention anything about where she is sleeping.

I do think it is odd that she has D10 and D2 up at 1030 at night.  Everyone else has been asleep for a while.

Maybe the Mom's out there can weigh in on this one.

My wife usually make's a big production out of brushing teeth and getting PJ's on.  Very efficient and she tries to make it fun.  That has been stable for a while.

For the last few nights I have paid attention, not nights in a row, I have thought that "they" wife and kids have been taking food to the room and snacking after getting in bed. 

Since we are now in a carpeted house, wife and I had agreed that no food in rooms.  Bottle water only for drinks.

So, tonight D2 comes down and says "Mommy said I can have a cupcake".  I said "oh good, get your cupcake and sit at kitchen table."  D2 then said the cupcake was for D5. 

I said "Oh good, well tell D5 she can come to kitchen and have a cupcake then."  D2 disappears and fairly quickly there is a lot of stomping and striding around as wife blows into kitchen, loudly crumples up the plastic container that had a few cupcakes in it, and then takes several cupcakes upstairs to the room. 

She passed through the living room where I was for all of this.  She didn't speak to me and I didn't speak to her.

Well, nobody brushed teeth after all of this.

So, pop quiz.  Is she baiting me to ask her about brushing?  Am I supposed to turn her in for being bad Mom and not brushing after sweets? 

Note:  I don't think I have ever seen this before.  Perhaps a mistake where a kid pulled a fast one, but never several nights in close proximity where she was the one introducing food to youngsters after brushing teeth and getting into bed.

 

FF

Emotional connection and sex: 

So, I can probably count on one hand the times I have turned her down for sex because of a dysregulation.  And that would be one of those "poof" it's over kind.  Where she chews my rear and then suddenly stops and wants to grab me.

It's been a few years, but I walked out saying I needed to get over being yelled at.  Pretty sure all those incidents happened before I started at bpdfamily.

2nd thought

A few people asked about "repair".  The only thing close to repair was a conversation this past Sat morning where we had a wonderful talk and handled a few issues.  No apology or anything, but it was good talk.  I figured asking for an apology would be a bit much.   Was also in shock about how well the talk was going and for as long as it went.

She kept going back to the "team" thing, yet didn't have any examples of when we were a team and when we were not.

So, yep, I'm obviously comfortable with sex while icky r/s stuff is going on.

FF

So, any guesses what is "really" bothering her?

I tend to be detailed in my posting because others sometimes pickup on patterns that I don't or see angles I miss.

I don't think it really is about housework.

It could be the job thing or the switch of roles.

I also wonder if "it" is that I allow her to get away with too much.  In other words that she might feel more comfortable with me having tighter boundaries.

This would go along with the theory that she wished she had a stronger Dad to protect her against her queen type Mom.

Right now my gut says it is the switch of roles, her working and me at home. 

FF

Switch of roles, plus continued fallout from CPS incident?

The things that matter more than the rules, I think ,are consistency. That kids know what the rules are and they don't change. The other thing that is important is that all adults in the home are consistent, so kids don't play one parent over the other. They may be allowed to do something in grandmas house but they know the difference between their home and other homes.

I don't know what your wife is doing. For one, I don't think it is good for the kids to have frequent sleepovers with mom. That blurs the boundaries between parent and child. Sure ,I fell asleep putting kids to bed many times, and also comforted them if they weren't feeling well. I've taken trips and stayed in a hotel room with them. But in general we don't have sleepovers if you get the gist. We don't eat cupcakes in bed as if we were playmates.

I'm pretty sensitive to these boundaries as they were blurred in my FOO. For the most part, BPD mom painted me black but she also acted as if I was a peer when I was a teen. I heard way TMI about her issues with my father. The nature of her illness was to triangulate, get us on her side ( it didn't work) but also because of her own emotional immaturity, she acted like we were peers.

So, to get on a soap box- what concerns me is inconsistent rules, different rules between parents, and poor boundaries between parent and child. If the marriage is such that she does not want to sleep with you, then better to put the kids together in a room, give her her own room, and keep that boundary. The kids are not her friends, and they are not a substitute for a spouse. That isn't good for them.

Now, how to discuss this with your wife- I have no idea. Sorry

I had a thought. The role changes- could she be jealous- possibly threatened - by the fact that now, you are spending more time with the kids at home while she is at work. Could this be the reason she is keeping them up later and doing things like eating cupcakes with them? She could be missing her mom time and also fear they will get closer to you than to her.

My H is the chief wage earner, and he really showed no interest in things that he considered to be "women's work" . I was more egalitarian. I wished he would have taken more of an interest in these things, and I liked my part time job. Yet, even though this arrangement was how he wanted it, he would sometimes say things to me like " you are keeping the kids from me" " you are separating me from the kids" which I was not doing and didn't intend to do.  Now, it was actually his choice- to not spend time doing child care that made him feel as if the kids were more attached to me, but he saw it as my doing.

Your wife may not like the role reversal, and she likely misses her time with the kids. It would make sense considering BPD if she saw this as your doing- saw you as a dividing the kids from her, and now is scrambling to get that position back.

Yep, I could have written this myself. 

Back when I didn't have so much sleep apparatus I might fall asleep a time or two a year in a kids bed.  There was usually something odd going on (protecting them from "monster" or they were sick, who knows). 

In our last house I was pretty efficient at giving them the boot from my bed, even with Mommy there.  Every once in a blue moon I would let one stay, but this is a few times a year thing.

My best guess is to hang on until in a counseling situation to talk to her.

FF

Very likely.

And she knows I like the time and actively push for it.

FF

FF, I suggest you make it a daily or weekly at least practice to spend 15 minutes or so thinking about what is or might be stressing your wife out, what she might be afraid of... .and do a bit of prep work on each one, pre planning the sort of thing you might be able to validate at an opportune moment. (Consider a top topic here)

As for the kids ... .I'd suggest you choose your battles. Maybe sleepovers and cupcakes aren't worth addressing with her.

Consistent parenting is a great goal. I suspect your wife would even agree. I also don't think she is capable of it. Any more than she is capable of being a consistent wife these days! I don't think much good will come of discussing this with her... .

Control battles with the kids seem pretty toxic, and you've had too many already. I wouldn't risk one over brushing teeth.

You still have to deal with or watch for the parental alienation issue... .if you can let lesser things go, do it.

FF, I recalled from some of your other posts that when you pushed for family time- and time with your kids, this was sabotaged- other family invited, the extra kid. There were times you had agreed on your time with the kids, and somehow this agreement was changed.

Now, you do have your time with the kids.

My H is a great dad, and personally, I push for Daddy time. I am not threatened by it. I know my kids love me. Since the tendency in my home is to hand the child related duties to me- I feel the kids need their Daddy time. I also recall my own relationship with my father and want my kids to have a relationship with their dad.

Boundaries are a principal here. Yes, we are parents, and a couple, but we are individuals as well. While kids should not be allowed to divide parents, they can get to know them as individuals. I have no issue with the kids getting to know their father on a one on one basis.

If I compare this to my own FOO, an individual relationship with my father was seen as a threat by BPD mom. The two were a pair, but with my mother's tendency to triangulate, if we spent time alone with dad she saw it as a threat- as if my spending time with dad would undermine her.

Then there is the change in roles and employment, and here's where I think it is important to be really honest, because if we are honest, we can admit that what we do forms at least a part of our identity, our sense of self- and if there is a poor sense of self, a lack of self esteem, a strained relationship- then what we do can play an even bigger part of that. I would propose that even for the most emotionally intact person, a loss or change of profession  is an adjustment and that you are experiencing this too. I know that when I left the work force to raise the kids, I lost a lot of validation that I got at work and this was an adjustment.

Considering your background, I would bet your wife's identity was a stay at home mom with a large family-and that in your community, this brought her validation. I have friends who are conservative Christians, stay at home moms, who home school. They are members of churches where a lot of the moms are also in the same position. This is considered to be the most important role. One of them left a high paying prestigious job to do this. My friends are happy- this is what they want to do. Now, I know that if they had to return to the workforce, they could and they would, but if it is possible for them to do this, then they choose this.

It would make sense that if your wife has a poor sense of self that she would be feeling this change very strongly and be struggling with it. It would also make sense to me if you were feeling this transition too- no matter how strong you may be. This is a transition. One thing I noticed in my FOO is that we had normal family transitions like every family- the empty nest, kids growing up and getting married, moves. retirement. It seemed though that these things that many families dealt with could be even more disruptive with a parent with BPD.

I want to add that perhaps the behaviors that seem so crazy and mean to you are driven by your wife's painful feelings and fears. She may feel her entire sense of self is lost- and that is frightening. When one has no solid sense of self and their sense of self is how others see them, then a change in that can feel as if their very being is attacked.

When I was finally able to hear my mother's perspective without feeling triggered, it astounded me how much she felt invalidated and victimized- by us as teens, by my father. To us, it appeared that he was a victim of her behavior, but I have to also consider that in her point of view is some validity. We were invalidating. My mother's sense of self seems to be derived from external sources. If she is seen in a good light, all is good, but this can be shattered in an instant by someone making a comment that she perceives as critical and this can ruin an otherwise good day. Hence the good day/bad day behavior. 

Your wife is hurting. You are too. I don't think a pw BPD who is hurting can see that others are hurting. They are overwhelmed by their own pain. This is a tough situation but if you can somehow see that she is hurting and have insight to it, perhaps it will reframe her behavior for you.

 

So, let's assume change of roles is the primary issue.

How to I validate or address it?

I do listen, am empathetic and validate what I can in her work situation.  Whenever she brings it up I try to be careful about being present to listen.

Hmmm,

More later, hint.  I found out this morning that I was "bad" at the bookmobile.

FF

Update:

Last night wife cooked dinner as per our compromise we worked out on Saturday morning.  It was wonderful.  I did note we at at 6pm, she had raged (previously) about having to eat at 5 because of a whole host of things.  Whatever.

After dinner we went to the local park, played tag, played on swings and then played some basketball.  It was a great time.  Anyone that saw us would think we were a wonderful loving family.  As we were walking away from park I couldn't believe what I saw.  The bookmobile was there at 7 something at night!  I had no idea.

Quick history:  Not sure if I have ever mentioned this here before.  In my previous county executive employment solid waste was my clear favorite department and library was number 2.  I spent lots of time in our library growing up.  Fond memories and still have a big conviction that kids need a habit of going to the library.

Kids all piled in.  The two librarians didn't have any other customers.  We got library cards, checked out books it was wonderful.  Well, until this morning. red-flag

She gets up a full hour early, I'm up doing my normal routine.  Remember the little 5 lb dog we have?  Coordination about the dog going potty is critical since she lives inside.  If in doubt we leave her in bathroom where she has indoor pee pad, food, kennel and all that.

I took her out and she appeared interested in going potty but didn't.  Odd for that time of the morning.  So, I pitched her in her room and figured I would look after her again later.

At some point my wife asked where the dog was and I told her.  In a dictatorial voice she directed me to let the dog out.  I ignored the voice (didn't complain) and asked if she had taken her potty yet or noticed anything about that this morning.  Zero response as wife walked away.  So, I went on about my business.  Nope, didn't let dog out.

Well, in about 5 minutes here comes the stomping, flings the bathroom door open with lots of loud questions about why I can't do what I'm told.  

Perhaps I should have ignored the entire thing, not sure.  I went and asked if there was something she needed help with (I had idea what was going on but wasn't sure).  She did lower her voice to almost reasonable, so I stayed engaged.  I tried some active listening and she is basically pissed that I didn't follow her command.  I asked if she heard my follow up questions, she really didn't answer directly but indicated that a follow up meant I didn't trust her.  (I didn't try to validate that, but I should have.  I'm open to suggestions on how).

She directly asked why I didn't let the dog out.  I told her about staying outside for a while and dogs behavior, lack of information from her and figured it would sort itself out.  "But I told you, "  I again tried sort of a SET about frustration to not be listened to with the T being "I will NOT do as I am told, I MAY do as I am asked".

This sort of opened a rabbit trail for complaints about me not thinking she can handle the bookmobile ?  Apparently I said something to the librarian about age ranges of our kids.  My wife and I were both talking to her, she would answer and fill something out, like how many kids in age range 0-4 and so on.  I would answer the next.  She asked if I was trying to prove that I was a Dad or something?  

I indicated I didn't understand that enough to provide a response (again, open to suggestions on how to be better).  And she switched back to a loud, mocking  "FF will you PLEASE do this today and PLEASE do that, "  I said I would be happy to discuss later when there was less energy in the conversation and left the room.  She flung some words at me and I stayed in the other room.

Well, I thought about giving her space (yep was thinking about you guys).  So I went to tell her that I was going to go walk for a few minutes and I apologized for "being in her space" at the bookmobile.  Weird, I could see her relax.

I came back 20 minutes later, all seemed normal.  We had breakfast together and all was normal until time to take kids to the bus.

I came back after dropping off S13 and she started heading everyone out the the car.  I said "I thought I was taking S7 and D10 today as per our conversation on Saturday."  

She stayed calm and said, "Well, you will have to take a different vehicle and since you don't have one ready, I will take them today."

I said, "The van is running and ready to go (my vehicle) and your vehicle is warn and ready as well."  She lost it.  You are being ridiculous! is what she said.  "I can't believe you are doing this!"

I walked out and told the two kids to hop in the van.  To her credit she told them that I wanted to take them to the bus stop and she got in her vehicle.  

Well she follows me down there.  As we get turned around she pulls in in front of my van and blocks me in and sits there.  She and D2 and D5 are in her car, I am in van with S7 and D10.  I ignored it and had a great conversation for about 10-15 minutes with the kids in my car.  Bus comes, kids get out, my wife makes big deal about calling them over for a goodbye kiss.  Wife drives off and I drive home.

So, there you go.  I'm looking forward to my day.  Was productive yesterday and hope to be productive again today.  T appointment in the middle of the day.

FF

 

Followed by a completely normal and kind text exchange.  FYI:  I have posted a bazillion things on ebay and c-list.  We have identified stuff that doesn't go in this house and are having success getting it sold and gone. 


ff wife: Honey that's great abt Craigslist and eBay, Glad u r having success selling our stuff, Please think about getting the shelves up in the laundry room and big pantry so we can get more organized 8:12 AM

Me: Yep, agree. Hope to get those up today. I'm about to head up and try to find that power supply. 8:13 AM

ff wife: Had a great time at the park last night, Want to do it again after dinner? 8:50 AM

ff wife: U r cooking tonight right? 8:50 AM

ff wife: d19 is handling her docbstuff today 8:50 AM

Me: yes, more park! 8:55 AM

Me: yes I will cook. We need to use the rolls. What was that thing where the rolls were on top and bottom and cooked with meat in the middle 8:55 AM

ff wife: Will send u link 8:56 AM

Me: thanks 8:56 AM

ff wife: Hawaiian rolls, lunch meat and cheese 8:57 AM

Me: ugg, have to let them sit overnight. I will figure something out for dinner. Will prep those rolls for another night 8:59 AM

ff wife: Spaghetti is easy, We hv lots of bread, Grilled cheeses 9:01 AM

ff wife: There are leftover burgers and hot dogs 9:05 AM

OK, I see a big picture issue here around the kids.

You and your wife are getting into control battles about who takes the kids to the bus stop, whether they are working on projects you are supervising, etc.

Your wife has a very bad habit of dragging the kids into berating you for not doing what she commands. (Which goes into parental alienation.

You've have a history of wanting quality time with your kids, and your wife does things which thwart it, or change the mix, either adding others, or removing kids from the mix you were planning on.

Anyhow, I think it is time for you to work out in your head where YOUR boundaries are. You seem to be working one around parental alienation. (No need to use the phrase with her; label is for discussion here)

The other stuff--really work out what is "over the line" and what is "acceptable." Because you want to do firm boundary enforcement on stuff that crosses the line. And on stuff that is unpleasant but acceptable, you can avoid feeding invalidation and conflict into your marriage by not testing/questioning/fighting at all when you back down.

I'm very aware that she often makes plans that involve you, and only informs you when you start acting not according to plan.

That's why you should work it out as well as you can in advance, so you can very quickly decide whether to go along gracefully, or make a stand. Yes, the line will be an iterative thing for you to figure out. But as you work it it will get clearer.

... .once you have that seeming pretty clear, you can also work on validation.

Your wife is feeling overwhelmed by her job and her obligations as a mother combined. She's not comfortable with her inability to spend the time she used to spend with her kids. There is plenty in there to validate. (When she's not busy berating you for failing to mop the floor!)

I see patterns but then a focus on the day to day things. At one time, you could be all playing in the park and things are good. Then, it's gone wrong. A good weekend then, a bad Monday. One way of looking at this is that this is how life is. Ups/downs, then more ups and downs all in a day. One moment you're the good guy, then you are the bad guy.

This is your life with a BPD wife who isn't all bad, isn't all good, and you are the same. I'm not dismissing the issues, but a woman who can teach and raise 8 kids has some serious strengths to consider. You guys have some pretty steamy moments- maybe not all the time but you do. You have some significantly good times together.

One episode during a good time at the park does not mean the family is out of control. Neither is eating cupcakes in bed a few nights, maybe even more than that. Two of your kids have made it to college. Again, I am not dismissing the issues, but something has to be going right enough of the time to achieve the order, marriage, and family that you have.

Maybe part of radical acceptance is accepting that life with a BPD person is sort of a roller coaster, and to consider that as part of the deal. You don't want to unravel the big picture, but examining, every text, mood swing, what crazy MIL says today, may be looking too closely.

Yep, I get this.

Part of why I am/was looking so closely is there may be a "new normal" in this new location.  What we have had for last few days MAY work for me long term.

What we had for a couple weeks of sleep deprivation, police showing up, father in laws doing the sugar ray thing, that WILL NOT work.

More later,

FF

 

Hey guys, couple things I would like you guys to consider and give opinions on.  A few days ago I said something to the effect that if I was going to make a mistake, I was going to "lean in" to the r/s rather than "lean out".  In other words, push for closeness rather than push for separateness.

Anyway, been trying to think about big picture stuff, "mindset", and I'm wondering if my "lean in" attitude is a mistake.

If I leaned out do you think that would be better from a "push pull" point of view?  Plus, I agree, it's obvious she is sending signals that she needs space, wants space, whatever.


She is continuing the have a weird conversation pattern and then text about things after that.  I've pretty much stopped ham handed efforts at validation via text and focus on information and clarification.  If something really obvious is there to validate, I give it a shot.

Anyway there is the theory that says keeping some lines of communication open is better than saying via text that I will only discuss "issues" in private (face to face).

However, there is the other theory that says putting something in writing lets her sit there and look at it again and again and twist it beyond all recognition. 

Looking forward to comments and input.

FF

Personally, I think a text is harder to twist than a memory of a conversation.  So I like the idea of having something written down.

Maybe a copy of Dobson's "Love Must Be Tough" would be an interesting read. It was not written for BPD and I think the example is husband pulling away from wife, but it may give you some ideas. I read it years ago and thought it was good. It is written from your spiritual perspective, but also Dobson is a psychologist and so that perspective with regards to relationships is also a foundation. I read this during a period where I didn't understand the marriage and read a lot of books from different perspectives.

The push pull plays out in many relationships. I think it has a unique place where BPD is concerned. I think the idea of leaving space is best considered from the self care perspective- not a an action with intent to affect them. I also don't think aiming at either extreme is helpful- leaning too far in and especially withdrawing in reaction- going way far out. Neutral- a steady, but not intrusive or reactive presence seems to be the best place I have found for me. Keeping whatever communication open is helpful. If the texts get too heated, texting " I love you honey but I can't respond well by text so maybe we can talk about this later at ( time)" may be better than a strict control on communications. Trying to avoid the escalations with strict control of how she communicates might be more frustrating to her than to just let her communicate and see how it goes. The control is with us. Our rectivity, or fear of escalation is the gasoline on the fire.  

 

I ordered the love must be tough and straight talk by dobson.  

Currently reading The Emotionally Destructive Relationship by Leslie Vernick.  

I like the written down thing.  I really like it.  My wife hates it.  Well she hates it when she has to face it.  

"We never discussed abc"

me:  "On 01/01/16 we have written discussion of issue and I have a text from you saying you are in agreement with the plan in our text log"

her:  "You faked it and I will not be doing it, "

Granted, stuff like this was from several years ago.  It feels icky to me to have a written record and then pretend it doesn't exist.

The written record is not to bash people over the head with, it provides a starting point for further discussion (in my world).  I get it her world is different.

FF

Documentation, recordings, and written records are for courts and police if they are needed. (So make them and keep them in your back pocket)

If your wife is experiencing emotional distress (often she is), and has no better coping mechanism than blaming you for it (Also often), she's going to find some way to twist reality to match her need to be angry and blame you. Doesn't matter whether there is a permanent record of whatever she's blaming you for or not.

"Proving" that she's wrong will only invalidate her and make things worse. This is the time to disengage. JUST DO IT.

Yep, totally agree.

I used to be really good and proving myself innocent.  Did a lot of damage to the r/s.

The upcoming biblical counseling will be interesting.  I doubt there will be much middle ground.  Either she will get on the road to facing herself and healing or the r/s will continue to collapse.

They are big on journaling as a couple.  My wife's concerns about "honesty" led her to be the "recorder" for our talks and discussions.  So, she would write down what was talked about and the general agreement.

We were supposed to go back to that journal and appreciate the progress we made as a couple.  Once her writing began to constrain her ability to warp reality, she bolted.  I knew nothing about rules and lessons then.

Now, my general plan is to "not rescue" her from the different reality in her head and what she writes on paper.  I certainly won't persecute her with it either.

Perhaps there is part of her that knows this and wants to go face it.  I doubt she is thinking that clearly.

Oh, I love journaling.  I know enough to stay centered about it and do it but not be giddy about it.

Thoughts?

FF

$.02 on the biblical counseling. Scratch that--I've not had much luck with biblical stuff in general, so I'll ignore the "biblical" part and give you $.02 on counseling.

Couples therapy of any sort tends to go very badly with a pwBPD. Sometimes the pwBPD is able to snow the counselor and get them to blame the non- for everything. (Not a good outcome) Otherwise, if the counselor figures this out, and challenges the pwBPD, the counselor is painted black. Few counselors are specialized in dealing with BPD, and can manage this well, and get progress working.

That's why DBT is done the with two or three different T's involved, so that one isn't painted black when the others are, to keep progress going.

Obviously, it is worth going, and doing the best you can at it. But keep your expectations of progress on her part low--if she's not able to make progress with you at home, she's not likely to make much more with a counselor.

Yep, I am doing this.  However, this also contributes to a bit of negativity on my part about the future viability of the r/s.

If there are negative tools that she is able to put away (parental alienation, sleep deprivation, speaking with utter contempt, I could go on, ).  Then I have high hopes.

Now, I realize we all have bad days.  A blip here and there of eccentric or odd behavior is livable.

Will have to think on this more.

FF

I don't mean that to indicate that it is hopeless.

I mean that to indicate that the odds of this biblical counselor saving the day quickly are really poor.

You are in a relationship with somebody with mental illness. You have to do 90% of the effective work, because you can do more than she can. It sucks, but it will be this way and suck, whether you accept it or not!

You know how to do this work. You've got the tools. You know which ones you need more practice with. Keep up the good work on it.

formflier, when you speak of your wife "facing herself and healing," is that an optimism that comes to you from your Christian faith?

On that note, does your wife even think she needs to "face herself and heal?"

Vernick's books are really quite good; I read The Emotionally Destructive Marriage as part of my multitude of reading -- because I needed something that came at the issue from a Christian perspective that was also sound from a relational perspective. It is surprisingly hard to find both perspectives. The Boundaries books by Cloud and Townsend are also good; I read Beyond Boundaries recently, too.

I've had issues with h when I have documentation of something that is contrary to what he says, but the dysregulation usually ends with him abiding with the documentation. He doesn't like it though, and the fact that I relied on the doc comes back up at certain times. It's a bit like the CPS involvement that you had -- comes back up. My advice is not to use the documentation unless necessary; it is more for your protection and sanity because it can be crazy-making to be in a relationship like this.

No.

She has said, in a half dysregulated state, that she is going to get me in counseling and get me the "help" I need.

FF

If your wife suffers from PPD (and I think maybe you've been given an indication by a mental health professional that this is likely) then she will almost certainly not be able to "face herself" or "heal."

I think I'm with Grey Kitty in believing that progress for you will begin with greater understanding and acceptance of your wife's clinical disorder.

I wince when reading that you continue to "probe," to "take the temperature," to expect to "walk her back" toward healthy thoughts and behaviors. This is so threatening to a person with paranoia.

Those other suggestions about working the tools offered here, being less reactive, being strong and consistent. Relying 90% on yourself for changes in your family dynamic. Those are the winning ways, I think.

Here's my experience with marriage counseling with a pwBPD. This is an N of 1, and my BPDwife has a diagnosis. She accepts (more or less) the diagnosis but not that it implies any accountability or indication of problems on her part.

The counselor has a background in psychology. He claims to be conversant with BPD.

Sessions often have him trying to redirect her -- "That's not what I heard him say." "OK, but can we put that aside for now and address this issue?" "Can we agree that this is a positive step that we could try?"

The same sort of circular talk that she uses with me -- she uses with him. His questions don't often get direct answers, and she'll deflect to blaming me or complaining about side issues. She's lost it a few times and stormed out. Other times, I've agreed to whatever the incremental change is but it's not clear if she's agreeing or not.

It's really not going anywhere. No, let me take that back. One thing it has done has been to help show me that the problems are more pervasive than just how we interact. Her disordered thinking extends to a third party who is trying in a neutral fashion to create a better environment for us to communicate. So, there's that -- not great if the goal is to save the relationship, but helpful in providing more context for how deep-rooted these problems are.

Believe it nor not, PPD is thought to have a poorer prognosis than BPD.  :'(

Self-reflection is a daunting and frightening task for a pwBPD; the underlying shame and fear usually prevents them from doing much of that kind of thing.

If I used that phrase (and likely I did), what I meant to say is that I will be walking towards healthy thoughts and behaviors  My wife may or may not go with me.  I hope she does, but that is her choice.  

If she chooses to say on the crazy train I will not ride with her.  

I'm not setting a deadline, drawing a line in the sand or any of that.  But I think the statements above reflect where my head is and my heart.

Oh, and yes, I agree PPD has a much lower rate of recovery that BPD.  

The way is was presented by a PhD type Psychologist is that paranoia is "central" to what she is dealing with.  Many other counselors  and pastors have made similar comments.

I will note that paranoia seems to be tied to direct invalidation.  (just my observations).  Before I knew about rules and I would "prove" myself innocent, she would reach for a bigger story that I couldn't prove wrong.

Since I am pretty good at avoiding blatant direct invalidation the whopper stories of secret families, kids, bank accounts and such are gone.

I take this as a good sign.  And also a testament that the "rules" work.

FF

I personally believe the element of choice is pretty reduced in a person suffering from paranoia. And that the train drives itself.

Agree that you don't want to ride that train yourself. And you don't want your children to ride it. Or at least you want to begin to help them understand something about the ride.

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