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So for those that have been following my saga, you know that J and I officially ended our 1 year r/s at the end of Dec.  I was a couple of weeks full NC, even at work, had a chance encounter that led to us talking for a few days, ended up back NC (LC at work).  J is in a new r/s, I know this because she hinted as much and had a dozen roses delivered to her (that was extremely painful for me).

Today, I was working in her department and managed to keep things low key.  We were 1-1 and (of course) she asked me how I was doing.  Personal question, not a pleasantry one.  We talked, personally for a few minutes... .nothing heavy.  Someone came in and asked her about the car she was driving.  She sort of danced around it.  I didn't pry, but found it weird she danced around the question.  After this person left, she immediately apologized to me. I was, obviously, confused about why she apologized.  The short of it is she was driving her new beau's truck today (for whatever reason). This to, hurt but I simply dismissed it the best way I could. I than left, as my work there was finished.

She immediately text me apologizing and said that she now "guessed I wouldn't look her in the eye again" (eye contact is a big deal to her... .it's like acknowledging her existence from what she's told me. She has told me when someone doesn't look at her - acknowledges her - it hurts her).  What I did next may have been right, it may have been wrong but I just reacted.  I told her that I understood we were over.  That, yes, it had hurt but that, that was life.  I told her thanks for the past year (some personal, mushy stuff in that) and that I hope the new guy makes her happy - that she deserved that (as well as some other personal stuff we had talked about). I told her these things more for me than for her.  I do wish her happiness.  She's not as much $hit as she thinks, and we all deserve to be happy.  As everyone knows, I still care and love J, as unhealthy as our love has been... .that hasn't changed and I also know we can't work together after all the water has flooded the boat.

Anyway, she replied with the following message:

"I don't know what to do anymore. I miss my best friend. I miss you, all of you. We had amazing times. We had bad times and I'm sorry for the pain I've caused you.

I'm doing the best I can to be the best J I know how to be. I will always love you. I don't know what to say. I've got to process these feelings. I would like a hug from you as well. You'll always have me, you may not want to come to me but I'm always going to be here. ALWAYS AND FOREVER and I mean that with everything in me.

I'm sorry I couldn't be what was best for you and [your child]. I wish you all the best in the entire world. You're an amazing man always have been and always will be. You deserve the best in life. Please please please realize that! You've changed me forever and made me a better person. I wish I could've done that much good for you.

Love you forever and always."

About the hug:  Hugging was/is a big thing to her. I had said in the long reply that I had wished to hug her one last time because I wasn't given the opportunity at the end to do so and I understood I couldn't. Right or wrong, I told her that.  It was in the middle of my original reply, I didn't expect her to acknowledge it, but she did. 

We exchanged a couple of other text messages after that.  One of which she asked if I would see her Monday, she wanted to see me face to face and to give me the hug. 

Now here's where I am confused/conflicted.  Should I meet her Monday?  I mean, we aren't reconciling, that much is obvious.  Neither of us want to nor do I see it as an attempt to.  Maybe she just wants closure, maybe I do.  Maybe it's a lie, a way to keep her in supply and me tethered (if you will).  I don't know.  As I've said, I'm DNR, for many reasons.  But I feel compelled to meet her, for many reasons as well. 

What do you guys and gals think?  Bad idea?  Ok idea?  Let's mull it over.

Hey Astro,

I've been keeping up with your story... .It sounds like a terribly hard position to be in. I see that you intend to remain DNR and that you've been wrestling with how to be Low or No contact with your former lover. I've been wrestling with all of these things to. A battle between my heart and my head. I don't know what you should do... .However, just 5 nights ago I met up with my BPDx and just a little physical contact turned into intimacy (I accept that I chose to go there) which ended in me feeling ashamed of myself and my decision. I know you may be in a stronger mindset than I am, but I made that mistake on Monday night. One thing that disgusted me was the realization that she could secretly be into a relationship with the next guy, and I could have just become the guy that she cheated with. I know her cheating had devastated me. Just sharing this as food for thought. I know you could probably stand firm, but in my case a hug turned into holding, which turned into a kiss on the ear, which turned into a complete relapse into intimacy.

Your situation was different then mine when the relationship ended being as you have to see her still. It's really up to you what you want I guess. If a hug will help you heal then go for it. If you feel like deep down inside you still hold out hope then the hug will just be giving you that temporary feeling. I can go on and on about what happend post bu with me and my ex but that's not what this is about. I can give countless examples of contact and times we met. It all depends on what is best for you. A lot of people in relationships with pwBPD tend to be caretakers and do what's best for the pwBPD. It's hard to truly detach until you start doing what's best for yourself. Sorry for the vague response but I don't want to turn this into a me and my ex blah blah blah response

Just do what's best for you. Take care.

We will, most likely, be meeting in public.  Therefore intimacy will not even be possible (if it were even an option).  I know that she is pretty far into the new r/s, I mean she's driving his car and he's sent her roses... .its not like they've just been on "a couple of dates", you know?  That's also how I'm conflicted because of the text she sent me.  I mean, has she really changed if she's in a new r/s and telling me what she did?  Now she wants to meet to give me a hug (and yes, a hug is sometimes just a hug).  I mean, would I be doing either of us any good by doing so?


Thanks.  I'm trying to decide.  I feel like I do want to hug her, just one more time, for myself.  That sort of physical letting go in order to mentally let go.  I know, deep inside, that I do still care for her.  I also know that we would never work as a couple... .if that were ever an option.  After all, to much has happened over the past year for me to think otherwise.  Maybe she is 'better' or maybe she's just feeling better because of the new guy.  Maybe she was truthful in her text to me, in the moment, and come Monday she won't even mention meeting. 

I'm still undecided.  I want to, for myself, I'm scared of where it could lead us if I do.  I don't want to interfere with the new guy, he deserves a chance with her.  Of course, a hug could just be closure for both of us and I wouldn't feel I've done harm to the new guy.  Does that make sense?

Lonely_Astro hi,

I follow your story and can see how difficult it can be when this kind of communication exists between you and J. I think your feelings for J. are more intense than those I had or have for my ex partner so my comments may not be very relevant. But you asked for our opinions and I'd like to share mine.

I think a meet-up is neither a good idea nor a bad one in itself. Whether it's good or bad depends on what happens afterwards, how I feel, how it serves my personal goal (be it rekindling the relationship or detachment) etc. In my experience, these things have always been a bad idea if they occur after breaking a boundary I have set before. A bit of instant gratification (and even that with some anxiety) and then a price paid in the not-so-long-run. 

In my world, with my imperfect personality, this would be a bad idea only because of myself as I wouldn't immediately be ready for friendship or hugs after a break-up. My ex may want to be friends, but I know myself, I can't be friends very quickly with an ex. (Some of my friends can, I cannot, people vary). I would need a bit of alone time, detach completely and then think of friendship. I sometimes feel that friendship is doable, but in the early stages, deep down I know that I'm not there purely for friendship reasons, either. Then I find myself sucked in or even initiating things. In this respect, a hug would not be a closure for me, it would be the bargaining phase of an addiction - one last fix. Whether it is a hug or a pat on the shoulder would not be relevant in my case, just thinking "one last" would be enough. Like that song and AA slogan: One is too many, one more is never enough. But this is purely about me. So, if my goal is detachment, I tend to avoid these situations.

Things have not always been this clear-cut for me. There was a time in my life (in my twenties) where I did something that seems more radical now. I just accepted that a particular relationship was bad for me (emotionally abusive) but I still wanted it (i.e. I was treating myself like crap and could do no better at that point in my life).  And I stayed in it knowing that it was emotionally abusive. This meant accepting my situation, but with a goal to learn to treat myself better. I accepted that I was powerless (abusive relationships do this anyway) and focused on myself. I named the situation as it was: abusive relationship, stopped obsessing about its particulars and worked only on myself. (Al-Anon step work without the religious aspect as I'm not religious) At least, I wasn't conflicted. This relaxed me a lot. With my personality, being conflicted drains my power, my energy so accepting the terrible and working from there helped me. I managed to find my balance quicker than I thought I could. In between though, whenever I encountered ugly, hurtful stuff, I said to myself that there was nothing to be surprised or hurt because I already knew what I was in: abusive relationship. Actually, I don't know why this came to my mind. I'm certainly not advising anyone to remain in emotionally abusive relationships, neither am I saying that your relationship is emotionally abusive. I guess, what I'm trying to say is that wherever we are in life, tormenting ourselves never helps. I have always had better results with accepting my emotional situation, let go of judgments about myself and focus my energy on doable, small steps that cohere with my goals.

In my ideal world, I would be someone who could detach and remain friendly and supportive at the same time. In my reality, I'm not that. I have to accept it about myself. The two will get mixed up for me. I'll go and sit there as a friend, but won't want to hear everything a friend may be telling me, I'll have emotional reactions that wouldn't happen with a real friend (even if in my head) and I'll be a controlling person, trying to control the situation with my emotional reactions - hurt etc. I'll also be minding stuff that shouldn't be my business at all. So, for me, no meet-ups when trying to detach. I can't do these two things at once, I have to define a priority. If it's healing, it's decided. I don't know how this would work for you.

Once I set that goal, everything, everything I may choose to do is first filtered through that goal. If my mind sees a contradiction, I don't do that thing no matter what my heart says. (I may go and shout in the forest, bite my pillow, cry and buy unnecessary cosmetics - there has to be a budget:))- but I'll not do that thing.

I also try to see if this want means breaking a boundary that I have set - I tend to forget that I set them sometimes.

Different personalities look at things differently though. In your particular example, the first thing that would come to my mind would be "Why are we talking about a hug and a meet-up when this dialogue is somehow initiated by someone else's (a rival's) truck?" Then I would be angry *) I'd say (in my head) "You can't hug me when you are driving someone else's truck, go and hug whomever, go and hug the truck." If I'm not focusing on myself and my healing, that is, if I'm simmering in my anger, I could carry on with this for days with the thought being somewhere in my head. I'd catch myself thinking "Hug the truck" while chopping potatoes etc. My chopping board has suffered a lot from this *) I'd feel justified in thinking like this because to me, hugging is something on the relationship axis. I don't have dialogues or emotional things like this with my male friends - strictly friends- and then offer them hugs. But again, dynamics don't have to be the same. This is just how I am. 

The way my BPD ex treated me has something to do with this. When we were together, he used me on FB as a trophy girlfriend, a normalcy pot to give the impression that he was having this good life and had a sustainable relationship. He was the ideal boyfriend. But he did a lot of stuff through private messaging with fallbacks and potential replacements. (He badmouthed me to them as well, sometimes blatantly lying about the most private aspects of our relationship and my sexuality etc). This hurt me a lot as a woman. After we split up, he still wants to be with me insistently but his FB is now full of new women blanatly flirting with him and he is hiding my presence from this FB world - his onşy connection with the world. If I was emotionally involved, this would hurt my pride tremendously. My ex has narcissistic traits so basically I have been a secondary supply for him - the stable and ongoing one regulating the flow of supply when other new and more exciting options are not as effective as he wants them to be. I'll never be that thing for anyone in this world. I feel very strongly about this. Any sort of emotional involvement with my ex results in this. So, I have nothing to give to him as a woman. He can keep his emotional crumbles to himself - because that's what he attempts to give to me. It's easy to test his double world for me. If we are friends, I wouldn't like to be a friend having anything to do with his current relationship, either. Would he be able to take me for a ride in this truck (should be able to if we are just friends and if his current girl is OK with this), have a photo with me and put it on his FB? My ex chooses to disappear at this point:)) Or he would try to use this to triangulate and drive the other person crazy but he would never be able to let go of anyone, it feels like death to him. So basically, he uses people as tools for his own needs, our needs are irrelevant at this stage, and I cannot do this to myself.

My ex is very talented in putting a foot in the doorway so I use the broken record technique. I state a situation once and briefly and say thank you for your understanding. Then whenever I feel I'm in an emotionally dangerous zone, I just say "You know we have talked about this before, thank you for your understanding." No matter how many times I have to repeat it.   

These are my two cents based on my experience.

Stay strong |iiii

If you are afraid of where this might lead, is this hug just a hug? A thought to ponder.

Will it trigger her, will it trigger you?

A painful and difficult decision. It sounds like, as hard as it is, that you two are on fairly good terms. Would it be in both of your best interests to acknowledge your hurt (to yourself) and work towards self soothing? 

I'll keep my thoughts short and sweet.  :)o it if you feel it will help you and her to release each other.  If you feel it is going to set you back in any way I might suggest stepping back and taking a hard look at why you really want the hug.


I add this question.  Why would you need to set aside a special time to hug someone?  I agree sometimes a hug is just a hug but this isn't one of those times IMO.

From an optimistic perspective, I'd say that a hug for you both at this point could mean releasing with grace. Closure with closeness. A good ending to a difficult relationship. All those sound like good things to me, so I'd give it a shot.

Thank you for the kind reply, this world.  This paragraph is one I wanted to focus on.  This is one of the first things I asked myself about meeting her and getting a hug.  While I can see these things as closure, I also wonder why.  Granted, I did say that I wished that I could hug her again.  I didn't expect her to reply like she did.  I certainly don't think the new guy would approve of a) the text she sent me and b) to us meeting up.  Of course, I don't know where they are in a r/s, but I also presume that if she's driving his truck to work, then they have to be a bit deeper into a r/s.  I know that I've never let a girl I went on "just a couple of dates" with borrow my car.  

So this moves me to my next point: has she changed?  For information sake, we have 'officially' been over for a month (discarded in early October, limbo until mid-December, officially ended first of January).  So she's moved on fairly quickly (yes I know everyone moves on different, as in one partner who has been planning to leave for awhile appears to move on fast, etc).  But, with that said, she's been involved with this guy since at least mid-Jan (when the roses came).  Yet, here she is sending me that text.  Maybe it was her being nice or bringing closure.  Maybe it was a keep her in supply sort of tactic.  I don't know.  Hopefully that makes sense.  To get to the point, I want to hug her, but I'm not sure of the why yet.






It will be emotional for at least me, if not her too.  We are on good terms, which also makes this harder.  Without labeling her (she is diagnosed and in DBT), this appears to be a r/s where two people love each other but feel it can't work out (for one reason or another).  I don't doubt that J loves me, the best that she can.  I don't doubt I love her, either (I have never said I didn't).  I didn't want us to end, I've never concealed that.  J's 'feelings' changed and she abandoned me in Oct.  I tried to keep us together until mid-Dec.  We officially ended the first part of January.  Ive had a stint or two of NC with her, but we always ended up talking again.

I know that a r/s isn't going to happen.  I do consider myself DNR because of what's transpired between us.  I do still care and love J, I don't doubt that.  I dislike seeing her exit my life, but I know she has to.  A hug is a big deal to me (and to her), so in this case, I don't feel a hug is just a hug.  Its a way to say "I love you, I release you, I wish you the best, and goodbye".  But the nature of the text she sent me makes me unsure if thats the message thats given.  :)oes that make sense?

Yes, it very well could be that.  A way that we are saying goodbye on the best of terms that anyone could ever hope for. 

What would be the true test is what happens after the hug.

Astro: what your ex said to you about hugs etc sounded a lot like the nonsense my ex handed me when she disguarded me. What happens if this turns into something else? A hug turns into a kiss turns into etc etc etc. I may be wrong but I feel that your ex may be baiting you to keep in her stable of exs. Just incase this new relationship does not pan out the way she wants it to. And we all k ow somewhere down the line we all get disguarded. May it be weeks, months , or years it does happen eventually. Unless the person seeks treatment. My ex had a sliver tounge. Meaning she knew what to say and when to say it. She also tried with the I just want your happiness , I want a hug crap too. She also wanted to remain friends with me after she thought about it for over a week. I said hell no! I will not be another horse in her stable so she can "ride" me later when the next horse does not work out. Do I love her? Yup and it sucks! But for my own sanity I will never go back with her and I never want to see or hear from her again. I k ow it's hard for you because you work together. But don't do it. Hang in there. It's only gonna open ip to something that will make you feel worse then before. I made the same mistake. Gut telling me what my ex did to me as a teen. That she would do the same to me again as adults. Did I listen? Nope! Did she break my heart again? Yup worse then the last time! All I will say is NEVER AGAIN! Think about it!

Lonely_Astro, you once saved me and probably a serious portion of my future life with the two see-saw metaphor you explained so clearly. That made me understand my relationship under a new light and that's the framework I use each time I try to understand the behaviour of my ex after our split-up. And I think the metaphor works wonderfully, each time I have a question in my head. So, I think that's what will probably happen to most of us (if not all) if we remain in these dynamics. We will be on that second see-saw.

Can you explain the two seesaw model? It sounds great!

I am glad that I was able to add some clarity to you with that metaphor.  J has always said that I understand way more about BPD than I should (she meant this as a way of seeing herself as "bad".  I was able to use validation techniques and a series of other things this year to help our r/s.  I guess, not that it mattered. That's also why I'm debating this meeting.  Is she looking for closure or to keep me in the "stable" (of course, this would require my consent, it takes 2 to tango).


The seesaw metaphor is this:

A pwBPD's life is like a seesaw when they are in a r/s.  One end is fear of abandonment, the other fear of engulfment.  Healthy people can stand in the middle of that seesaw and balance it.  BPD's charge headlong from one end to the other without stopping.  So as the seesaw begins to get unstable from the constant back and forth, they jump onto a new seesaw (i.e. A new r/s).  This causes the "old" seesaw to slow to balance and the new seesaw is balanced too.  So, they straddle the seesaws for awhile.  Since they can't trust their own feelings, they think that since the old seesaw is "defective" somehow and can't go solely back to that seesaw.  So, they leave the old seesaw (i.e. You) for a new seesaw because it must be perfect, it's stable after all.  Then they start the process all over again.

That's a quick version of the metaphor.

This is a good analogy. What part of this analogy might come into play for her in offering this hug?




This is how you think. You are not her. Are you being honest with yourself here Astro? No judgement, I ask because you have stated numerous times that you still have feelings for her. And it, understandably, hurt when she received flowers and is driving the boyfriend's truck. Being able to hug your ex later down the line when both of you aren't feeling so raw would make a hug just a hug, would you agree?


Absolutely makes sense. It sounds like she is new to dbt therapy? Would it be possible that she might be having difficulties with her boundaries? You seem to be struggling with yours as well since you are expressing feeling guilty about hugging your ex while she is in a new relationship. You seem to be asking for permission to cross boundaries with this discussion with everything you've shared. I pose this possibility because with you sharing you're still having deep feelings, being fearful of where it might lead and being unsure of the nature of the text. You sound like you already know the answer to your question and you don't want to abide by your own answer.

Finding where the line is in our boundaries and those of others can be difficult and painful. Growth is painful sometimes.    

No one changes overnight and expecting major change in a month would be almost as close to overnight as one could get. This goes equally for us.  

This is also the feeling I have gotten.  Perhaps the only thing you need to do here LA is some shoe swapping.  If, when you were in a r/s with J, were to find out about a secret rendezvous with one of her ex's for a "hug" how would you feel?

Thank you for your reply.  I know that our situations seem similar.  While I consider myself DNR, I would draw the line at a hug.  For me, the meeting wouldn't be about anything more.  As far as I can tell, its the same for her.  This is something that stretches back to 4 years ago.  We were an item for about 4 months and she totally ghosted out of my life.  A few weeks after she ghosted, she contacted me.  That's when I found out (and she did too) that she had BPD.  She had been diagnosed.  We had talked in the beginning about what the ghosting had done to me emotionally.  This time, she hasn't ghosted per se, and the hug is something that (I think) means nothing more than goodbye.  I say that because from my perspective thats what it is, a goodbye.  I can't presume to know what she's thinking it would mean (but since she's with the new guy, I would presume the same thing).



I think the part of the analogy plays into her finding balance with me again (the seesaw has stopped).  She feels comfortable enough to give me the hug because the 'pressure' of a r/s with me is off.  I don't think she has ever seen me as 'bad'.  She did tell me the reason she left me in October and never came back was because everything in her life overwhelmed her and she "got rid of it all".  That included me.  Maybe she regrets it, maybe she doesnt.  It is what it is.  They way I see it is if I meant that little to her that I was included in "all", I don't need to be with someone like that.  Life has to many ups and downs to have to worry like that everyday.

I don't think that a hug is more than a hug with an ex, later down the road.  I have an ex that I am still friends with today.  We just realized it wouldn't work and we went our separate ways.  We still care about each other, in that friend sort of way, and we respect each other.  Do I still love that ex?  It depends on how you define love.  I care for and respect her.  We had a connection once, that connection is different now.  So, yes, I think down the line I could hug J and it just be a hug.  This hug I am talking about isn't that sort of hug.  It's (for me) a goodbye hug.  A physical letting go of someone who was my best friend for this past year.  I cared for J 4 years ago when we fell apart, I moved on with my life but I still cared for her (whether thats love or not, we can debate).  We got closer, all the way around, this past year, so yes my feelings run deep with her.  I know and understand we can't be together, for a multitude of reasons.  The million dollar question is, do I want to be in a r/s with her?  If she was who she made me believe she was, yes.  But, she isn't that person.

She is new to DBT, by DBT standards.  She started in mid-Sept.  She has skipped weeks for (frankly) lame reasons (she didn't want to drive or she had to get her nails/toes done, etc).  So, she's about 4 months into it... .which I know is practically new.  I don't know if she's trying to break a boundary or not.  I don't know the extent of her r/s with the new guy, I can only make calculated guesses.  If they aren't in a committed r/s, then she's not doing anything 'wrong'.  But if she is, then even talking to me like she has is 'wrong'.  This is a gray area for me, because I was unknowingly the other guy in our r/s during most of last year (and she was the other woman, too, I am not a saint).




I have swapped the shoes.  I can tell you if I were in a committed r/s with her and I found out about her seeing an ex, I wouldn't be happy about it.  I should know, I experienced it with her in the past year.  That's why I struggle with it because I don't know her and the new guys level of r/s, I'm just making an educated guess as to how deep it is. 

If they really aren't in a committed thing, I don't feel guilty for seeing her.  If they are, I would feel guilty because I am inadvertently hurting him by meeting her.  Honestly, I can't directly ask her about them because she would lie to me anyway.  This whole hug thing isn't about her, its about me.  Don't ask me why I want to, I just do.  It's not for hope of getting back with her.  Maybe it's some sort of validation to me that I mattered for something this past year.  I'm losing my closest friend, whether she was always honest with me or not.  I just feel like I want this hug to say goodbye to her with an action, not words.  Her feelings on it aren't important to me, whether thats right or wrong I don't know.

But, as I said, if I were to be somehow triangulating with her, that's not my intent.  What I told her about her finding her happiness was true, but its on her to find it.  I mean, I know that if she's been seeing this guy for at least a month and yet here she is telling me how much she loves me... .this guy doesn't stand a chance, really.  I get people are individuals and the process grief differently, but let's call it like we see it: if you're in a committed r/s with someone, you shouldn't be talking to your ex like that.  Plus, if you're in a committed r/s in less than a month after ending it with "the love of your life", isn't that also a  red-flag?  That's rhetorical, I guess, but it just seems like this guy doesnt really have a fair shot.  But thats a different topic.

To sum it up, I want to hug her because we had an intimate r/s.  I want it for myself, not for her.  I don't have a motive behind it.  I don't have hope we'll get back together.  Removing the label from her, I want to say goodbye to her how I want to say goodbye to her.  I still have feelings for J, but I'm also an adult who knows when something isn't going to work.  Frankly, I know if she wasn't disordered, we wouldn't have ever existed to start with.  But, we did exist and I feel like I owe it to myself to say goodbye to her how I would any other 'normal' person... .with peace, grace, and caring.  I don't want there to be bad blood between us, I don't have to be a bull in a china shop.  She hurt me, yes, but I'm also an adult. 

Many of the people on here have been through a lot more than I have and many only wish they would've gotten the opportunity that I have had with J.  I know where the boundary is: a hug.  No kiss, no anything else.  We'll be meeting in public, so anything more isn't possible (not that I see it as such, anyway).

As of right now, I plan to not even mention it Monday.  Who knows, her feelings about it could completely change by then anyway.  If she contacts me, I'll have to make a gut decision.  Right now, that decision is to tell her that I would like to, but that because she's in a r/s, I don't think it's a good idea.  If for nothing else, for the sake of this new guy.  He may get used by her, but I don't have to play a role in that.

Hey Lonely Astro. I am just going to give you my opinion. I don't think she wants this hug neither for closure nor for reconciliation.  It is certain that you have been an important chapter in her life that consiously or unconsciously she wishes to leave open because closing it for good is difficult and maybe impossible for her to do (both because you were important and because of the nature of BPD). Statements like I will always be yours and I will love you forever show exactly that. As long as you keep responding to these kinds of messages you will be getting them for a long time.

What you need to focus on before you decide is your own consious and unconscious expectations behind it. To me a planned hug cannot be just a hug. Maybe you have no long term expectations. Maybe it's just to get another "dose" of her. Maybe it's for a different reason. Be honest with yourself and look for that.  Either way, please try to think of the way this kind of interaction will affect YOU.

Take care

At the very end of a relationship was with my exBPD I was on her front porch talking to her while she was hiding my replacement in her house, all the while giving me some BS story.  I talked to people wise in these matters, including folks here, about what to do and my confusion with what was happening.   They all told me to get away from this person, but in my mind I had to see the ship go down before jumping off.      Even while hiding someone in her house she was outside hugging me, telling me she missed her best friend, that she would always love me.    It is very confusing indeed for us, it was terribly painful for me.     She married the replacement and was pregnant in two months.       A friend once told me when you try to understand crazy you will end up driving yourself there.     At some point you have to draw a line in the sand on just how much confusion, manipulation, and crazy you can stand.   

Thank you for the insight.  Also, thank you for the questions.  I have spent part of my day thinking about why the hug matters to me.  In this case, a hug isn't a hug.  It's a way of saying goodbye (for me).  I don't have any long term expectations from it, as I do not want to be involved with her intimately again.  But I also, in good faith, can't go through with it because I would be hurting the new guy.  I wouldn't want it done to me and I don't want it done to him.  Regardless of how deep their r/s is, I have already done more damage to him than is fair.  I understand I fired off an emotionally charged text, which is my fault.  Her responding like she did shows me, at the very least, she isn't any "better" than she claimed to be a year ago.  She appears more lucid right now because the seesaw is balanced.

I know she would accept my friendship, but I cannot offer her that, even if I wanted to.  I am not now, nor do I think I ever will be, in a place to offer that.  The reason is completely selfish: I can't see her succeed.  I don't mean that in an inhumane way.  As a human, I hope she does succeed.  As someone who was cast aside, I can't see her be successful with DBT and go on to accomplish those things we talked about having together with someone else.  Whether talking about those future events with J was J talking or her BPD, I'll never know.  The fact remains that those conversations were real to me and carried weight.  Of course, by the time she succeeds, I may no longer care either way (as blunt as that sounds).  After all, we all know that DBT isn't a "cure all".


This is exactly why I feel the way I do.  Here is this guy, who's been seeing her for however long, and he's not guilty of anything.  I mean, I'm 100% sure he has zero idea of me.  He's sent her roses at work and took her car (which is why she was driving his) for some reason... .so they aren't just in the "hey, we've been out a couple of times" phase.  It has to be deeper.  I knew she was seeing someone, but Friday gave me hard confirmation.  I had been trying to prepare for the impact of that to me emotionally and I just wasn't ready for it.  I knew I'd be replaced quickly, I just wasn't expecting it that fast. 

I also wasn't expecting such a text from her.  I get that it could be absolutely bs what she wrote.  I believe she believes everything she wrote, don't get me wrong.  I just feel guilty that she wrote it.  I mean, what would Mr. Roses think if he found out this girl he's on Cloud 9 with is texting an ex lover saying those things?  It's one thing if she had been out with him once, maybe twice, and they aren't in a committed thing.  That's one thing.  It's entirely different if they are where I believe they are.

As I have said, I believe that come Monday, I won't contact her.  If she reaches out (and that will really surprise me), I am going to tell her that I thought about it over the weekend and I don't feel it's a good idea because of Mr. Roses and that we should cease all communications, sans work related things.  I will attempt to keep that as short and to the point as possible.  Mainly, because even if she minimizes their r/s, I cannot in good faith see her face to face, text, or hug her knowing that Mr. Roses is in the picture (how completely unfair is that to him?  Geez.).

LA, I would love to see you re-phrase the situation as unfair TO YOU as opposed to this new guy to whom you really have no obligation.  What she's doing is confusing TO YOU and very likely is using YOU.

You seriously need to let this go.

You're absolutely right, it is confusing.  And it is unfair to me. 

I have decided that I'm going to simply not reply Monday if she reaches out.  It's just time to move on.  Everything that needs to be said and shown has been between us, there's little point in meeting her.  She's lied and manipulated me enough this past year.

Bright side: I don't have to worry about her stalking me  lol

Many here will support that decision but that is not necessarily what I was saying (nor am I now saying that's not a good choice).

I was getting at something different: regardless of the course of action you choose on Monday, I was flagging that you seem to be having a hard time letting your own feelings count in all this. You posted a bunch of times about this not being fair to the other guy, he deserves a chance with her etc.

It seems really worthwhile to gently consider why you were pushing aside your own hurt and invoking his. I literally meant it would be good practice to try saying to yourself that her message is confusing to you and the ambiguity is hurtful to you. Practice centering on your own feelings and see where that takes you. I don't think the world will end if you meet her on Monday or if you don't ... .I think the key is to make room for and be guided by what you genuinely feel and what you need to do to support your own peace of mind, self respect and integrity. If you start from there, specific decisions usually sort themselves out.

I understand what you mean.  My own feelings on it is that it is confusing to me because of the ambiguity of the signals she is giving.  I agree that it wouldn't be the end of the world for me if I met her, talked, and hugged her at the end.  But, on reflection, I don't think it would do me any good to do that. 

So about my feelings in all this.  I have a lot of them.  In a perfect world, I wouldn't be on this board.  Or if I were, it would be to tell a success story.  But I'm not.  I'm grieving for the loss of someone I was as close as one could be with for a year.  Granted, her side of it wasn't the same as mine, but that's not really what I'm talking about.  So, meeting her on Monday would be emotional, to say the least for me.  I don't know what could be said that hasn't already and therefore I don't know what the point of meeting her would be, for me that is.  I won't presume what it would mean to her, I'm not in her head.  For me, the hug itself could be a physical manifestation of symbolic release.  It's like I'm ending on my own terms and not being robbed of saying goodbye the way I want like I was 4 years ago with her.  I don't have an expectation of what would happen after said meeting.  I don't have a secret desire that she would want another go around with me.  I've had that desire before and it didn't work out.

With all that said, I have posted about Mr. Roses in all this because I empathize with him.  I know how I would feel, because I've been there, if I was in a r/s with J only to discover she had met an ex and "talked" (I use quotes because, looking at it from his point of view, would you believe that just talking took place during a clandestine meeting with an ex?).  After all, I feel confident she would lie to him about me (just a friend, talking about work/her exh, etc.).  She certainly would avoid admitting to him that we are ex lovers.  Plus, bluntly, I am 100% sure he doesn't know she's BPD (as far as I know I am the only one outside her family that knows, I'm not even sure her ex husband knows).  I say that because I'm sure he doesn't know the pattern of behavior... .yet.

I have thought about what this meeting would mean to her.  But, like I said, I can't presume to know.  I have theories.  Ranging from I was someone special in her life and I made a statement that I would like to so she's willing to do so to she's doing it to give me false hope (and keep me stabled as a fallback, just in case).  We could theorize on that all day.

I do appreciate your advice and you forcing me to talk about my own feelings, I got lost on other paths.

I know it's not super clear, it's not to me either.  It's an emotionally tough decision for me. Logic says no. Heart says otherwise.

They don't want to let anyone go, because relationships are so hard for them and they lose people all the time. Anyone that will stay makes them feel better, plus gives them someone to recycle with when the next situation ends. I would tell you to stay away... .every time I have contact with mine, I end up in tears for a week after. It brings up all the old stuff and makes me miss the good times. The other comment you made should be a reminder of the behavior as well... .that was "if" she contacts you. They always throw out ideas and "plans" that they don't follow up on. Don't spend so much time deciding if you will meet her or not, because she may not even do it in the long run. Be good to you. Go have lunch with a real friend or family. Someone you can count on who will not hurt you in any way... .good luck!

I would also want the hug LA, you are not alone in this desire.  The last "hug" I got from my ex was completely one sided.  She just stood there, literally like a sack of potatoes.  It was heartbreaking for me and I do want that releasing hug ... .but is that all I want?

You know you have to let her go, and you have, but at the same time you don't want to.  This much is clearly evident in your posts.  The thing about this whole hug issue that really feels unsettling to me is secrecy of it all.  You could just "hug" her at work, nothing wrong with giving a friend a hug when they need it.  As soon as you make it something special, a clandestine meeting, it takes on a whole new meaning and the "hug" becomes pretence.

I know you want to look at this as a goodbye hug but I feel if you take a hard look at your feelings you might realize it is something much deeper than that.  I think about what a goodbye hug would mean to me with my ex in your situation and history and if I am truly honest with myself it would carry much more meaning than just a goodbye, especially considering what has already passed.

Lonely_Astro hi,

And thank you so much for sharing your feelings so openly, it helps others to think about themselves and learn, too. In btw, I agree with your point that everything has been said between you two (you have actually given closure to each other, even if hers has mixed signals.)  On the other hand, are you sure that you want to ignore/not reply to her about this meeting (if I have understood correctly)? You seem to be in friendly terms and not replying may be just pushing everything in the other direction or opening up more channels of pretty close conversation that might keep you stuck in this. Between the hug and not replying, what could be your milder alternatives reinforced in time with firm boundaries?

My own feelings on it is that it is confusing to me because of the ambiguity of the signals she is giving. 

I think we have a role in this, too. When we base our feelings or actions on theirs, we get confused but also start acting in a confusing way. I think that's how it was about to become a dance for me. What would you need to stop basing your actions/feelings on what she does? At this point, you are not detached, so your heart and head haven't met yet - as you say. What would you need so that they meet? The wise mind stuff here works for me, as well as strictly limiting my communication to certain topics and using the broken record technique. I have also had to develop "avoidance" behaviours to keep myself out of this. I've learnt to say sorry and go away as if I had to do something for 10 minutes for instance. All this is new to me, but my usual behaviours are not useful for me in this regard.

For me, the hug itself could be a physical manifestation of symbolic release.

Have you ever done this before? How did you feel? In what ways did it help you release, and in what ways did it slow your emotional progress? (I did it with my ex husband when the divorce was finalized and can't say it helped much in any sense. It was a short  hug, the bodily separation/physical releasing was unnecessarily painful for me, it almost killed me in a dramatic sense even though neither of us wanted to be with each other anymore. It just became a painful and dramatic thing in my memory that didn't fit the reality of the situation, we had hurt each other a lot and there wasn't real forgiveness at that stage, that's why I call it unnecessarily painful.  It was like another fantasy in itself. It could have been different perhaps, if we had healed fully. I'm now thinking whether we needed that to realize it was over but then that doesn't say much because people can recycle)

How does J. react to dramatic situations like this? Do you think certain things may come up and make your emotional situation more difficult?

Aren't you doing just that by being in a well informed position and being empathetic to everyone involved, including yourself? Your decision to step back and self sooth is your decision. This decision is on your terms.

Just a thought on a response if she does reach out... "Thank you for being concerned, I'm ok." and leaving it there. I suggest this because you work together and you will be seeing her from time to time. This puts an end on the train of thought.

Yes, that is sound advice.  I have followed you for awhile and its heartbreaking that your ex still contacts you even now he's expecting a child with your replacement.  I'm sorry you have to experience that. 

It's even more sad that we get hung up with them.  I've grown so accustomed to 'if' that I didn't even think about it when I wrote it.  For someone stable and healthy, that wouldn't be an 'if', it would be a 'when' wouldn't it?  I mean, as it was pointed out earlier, we hadn't spoken in almost 2 weeks and the discussion was prompted out of her being 'caught' when you really look at it.  I don't mean that in a way that she has anything to hide, we aren't together anymore, but she has been talking to me in such a way that she appeared single (and working on herself), even though I suspected otherwise... .all the while she was driving her new bf's truck.  She made it appear that she was protecting me by 'hiding' it.  Really, she was protecting herself.  Make sense?

I know "any publicity is good publicity" to a BP.  She still has contact with me (supply) and that's what she's getting out of this, my feelings/wants/needs have nothing to do with it.  She would, of course, say something like she hasn't contacted me because she was afraid to or some other nonsense if I asked.  Funny, that was brought up Friday before the truck incident.  We were doing the delicate conversation dance when she made the comment of "well, you haven't text me, so I figured you were done talking to me.  You've barely acknowledged me in 2 weeks."  I, of course, said to her something to the effect that she knew how to get in contact with me too, that communication is a two way street.  It was about that time the co-worker came in and asked about the truck.  It triggered me, that's for sure.  I attempted to not show it, but it didn't play out that way.

When I started this topic, I was having a bit of a crisis with myself.  I wanted to hug her.  I wanted that physical contact of saying goodbye, but that is really just pointless.  If she wants to hug someone, she can hug Mr. Roses.  I mean, why do I feel like I want to hug someone that's done so much bad to me over the past several months and is now toying with my emotions?  J knows how I feel about her.  She knows that I accepted her and her disorder (even though I had boundaries, that she busted).  And now, she sends me a confusing text that says "I don't know what to do anymore.  I miss my best friend.  I miss you, all of you," and goes on to say how much she loves me and always will.  How freaking confusing is that to me when she keeps saying she can't be with me?  Especially when she has zero reason for not being able to be with me (other than some reason she hasn't verbalized, really)?  She goes on to say that I "changed her forever and made her a better person" yet there she was saying those things to me, all the while making plans to be with Mr. Roses that night.  That's F'ed up.  She replaced me in under a month and than tells me that she's "confused".  And when I write it like that, I get angry about it.  Very angry.

This is exactly why I'm not going to meet her.  It's to confusing for me and I could slip back into some sort of r/s with her (whatever that r/s would be) if I did.  As it has been said, the aftermath of the hug is what's important.  Hugging her would feel good, but the truth is it would be a temporary fix, a dose of her.  It would trigger the reward sensor in my brain, like any other addiction, and I would want more.  I would want another fix.  Not because I want to, but because I would feel like I needed it to feel better.  At least, that's how I feel about it.  I have always equated my r/s to her like heroin and nitroglycerine (not at the start, of course, but later on).  I knew it was bad for me and that it would blow up at some point, but that didn't stop me from wanting it.  I'm afraid that's what would happen if I went through with this meeting.  That I would be placed in her stable, in purgatory, until she was ready to give me a crumb.  It's a cycle that won't end until I decide to do it.

That's why Monday, I'm going to avoid meeting her.  The cycle has to stop.  The only person in this conversation that can do that is the one writing this sentence.  I know what I have to do, as hard for me as it is.  Hopefully, you too will get this way Blue.

Thanks for writing to me. 




I am not going to ignore it, I think that would be worse than simply saying to her that I've decided not to meet her.  As it was suggested, I will probably tell her "thanks, but Im ok" and end it that way.  As stein has pointed out, a hug at work is one thing but arranging a meeting for that sole purpose suggests that its "not ok" and shouldn't be done. 

I have hugged an ex goodbye before.  We got along well, but it just didn't work out for us (we were young and going different directions in life).  After we ended, we met for lunch a few weeks later and hugged at the end.  It was arranged that way because we wanted to see each other and have one last moment together.  It worked well for me then, to have the finality of it.  But, this isn't just the end of a 'normal' r/s is it?  Theres a lot of other factors at play (or could be) in this innocent appearing meeting.  It's just best that I don't do it, even if I want to.

This is good LA.  You know J, you know she likes to keep people in "orbit".  You know J has feelings for you and you her.  Whatever her reasons for keeping you in orbit you should realize that a part of you wants to be kept in her orbit and more importantly you want to keep her in your orbit.  I think you are finally seeing this and how unhealthy it is for you.  I commend you for having the strength to do this.

LA,

I've followed your story for some time and would agree with your decision to politely decline any invitation to meet.  I can't see much upside but can see a lot of potential downside (like the C. Stein "sack of potatoes" experience) or something unpredictable that could leave you with more questions than answers.

I think many of us have a firm intention in mind when we post about something of this nature that is driven more by our hearts than our heads.  The many "voice of reason" posts in this thread and others cause us to think with our heads and not our hearts toward the end of the thread.  This has happened with me several times and at the end of the thread I'm so thankful for all of the comments and counsel.  You're making a wise decision by declining to meet.

LF

Yes, Stein, this has been a process for me. It still is.  As you said, I care for J, I have feelings for her.  I want her in my orbit, even though the logical side of me knows that I shouldn't want that.  Emotionally, I want it for that small gleam of hope that DBT will work and all hasn't been in vain.  Of course, the academic side of me knows that DBT will take years to yield a result and that's if she does the work. In the mean time, it's business as usual in the r/s department.

As I have said many times, the logical/academic side of me knows being away from her is the best option.  The emotional side of me holds onto hope that she'll somehow accept me that I accept her.  I'm not getting into radical acceptance, that's not what I mean.  What I mean is that she says she wants to "be better" and claims that I have brought that.  Where the disconnect for me is, if that were true, then why can't we work?  I may not have put that in good enough terms as to what I'm trying to convey.

The end is this:  I wanted us to work (when that was finally an option). I tried my best to make that happen.  I had a good run with her (even if it wasn't always "good".  I will always have feelings for her.  There's a part of me that will always wonder if the new(est) guy will succeed where I've failed.  I'm struggling with the part of how I can mean so much and so little at the same time.  But, that's BPD, isn't it?  She loves and hates me (even though she has always maintained she's never hated me) all at once.

This has been an arduous journey for me.  It has been for you all as well and I thank you all for your support.  It's why I come here when I begin to struggle.  Relationships, especially these, are complicated.  More so when we add our own fears into the mix.  I know I often times sound like a broken record.  I don't want to do that anymore.  Her having Mr. Roses means I need to move on.  I mean really move on.  I need to feel the hurt and pain from all this and stop exposing myself to more.  Because that's all it is, isn't it?  More pain.  More sorrow.  More heartache.  

I need to realize that if J does love me, then she'll leave me alone.  If I truly love her like I feel like I do, then I need to leave her alone.  I did it 4 years ago, I can again.  

Thanks for writing, Stein

Lonely_Astro  

This seems to be my soft spot, too. Not only emotionally; basically I have difficulty grasping this. I don't think I'll ever fully understand it. I can only expect to somehow formulate it and then get used to it. I mean, I came together with my ex due to some attraction. At one point, I was very attractive to him as a woman. Then he discovered other  aspects of my personality and I became an "angel", his most "meaningful" relationship where I didn't damage him the way other women did (this can be partially true, his previous partners seem to be disordered as well), where for the first time in his life he was "treated like a human" in a "non-abusive" environment, where someone "truly cared for him" and "inspired and encouraged him" to "get better". It's wonderful, yeah? You get attracted to this woman, chase her to be your girlfriend and then she also happens to be this wonderful personality. If I came across someone like this (based on his words you know), I'd love that person, appreciate their presence in my life and try not to lose them maybe. My ex abused me, emotionally cheated on me, is still trying to recycle me while blatantly doing naughty things with other women. I don't believe any of these words    result in what they would mean in my world. Same language, different universes. What should be a natural consequence of these words in my world just becomes a fallacy - jumping to conclusions- in relation to him. I went through all that stuff hearing these words. Maybe he lost his attraction because I didn't give him anguish - beneath the verbal level, I think that's what he actually desires.

Waverider here once clarified something for me: changing (or promising to change) because you need approval and changing (or promising to change) because of responsibility. They result in different behaviours. If my ex had a bit of responsibility - in the way I understand it- he would have changed nevertheless. He just changes a bit for approval  or acceptance and then goes back to his own self very quickly.

Would DBT change this? It may or it may not. Am I willing to take that risk to go through a lot of torment for something like 4-6 years fearing what would become of us if he dropped it and then maybe see that he didn't drop it but dropped me? No. I think this is about our boundaries actually. I like calling it my right to protect myself from future trauma. DBT doesn't guarantee that promiscuity or emotional affairs will lessen. Maybe my ex who lacks a sense of self will find or strengthen his self, thank me politely and gratefully for all my support and then say he wants to try something with someone else. This happens in the world of nons, too. I can take that risk with a non, I think a mentally disordered person with my ex's patterns - even if in treatment- is too high an emotional risk for me - and very tiring.

You mention J.'s DBT, but what are your boundaries in terms of your future? Is there anything that you would never get into or get into but come out immediately?

I think I understand what you mean, thisworld.  At some point, I don't doubt, I was attractive to J for the reasons you mentioned.  4 years ago when we were together, it was a different r/s.  There were a lot of words spoken between us but not really any actions.  It was because at that time, I was just another guy in her life (1 of 5, simultaneously, according to her).  J seems to have no issue with emotional affairs, but her "cheating" line seems to be physical sex from what I can gather... .though like everything else, that line is blurred.  I mention that because it'll play into what I'm getting into next.  We never slept together 4 years ago.

When we reconnected 3 years later, as I have said before, she seemed so much different.  She had grown so much, it seemed.  We talked candidly about the past and J said all the same things yours said about the way I had treated her then (like a human not an object, the "meaningfulness" of our r/s, etc) and how she had regretted what she had done to me and how she had had this great guy in her life, treated him like crap, and lost him.  She had told me that she had been through DBT (which was a lie, she claims she was confused by her T and thought she was going through DBT... .).  As I said, in the beginning (yes, I know... .it was a mask, honeymoon, whatever) she seemed so much different.  Add in that she had been diagnosed, she married (though claimed separated and divorcing because he was abusive - an independently verified fact, at least he was emotionally -), rumors about her stopped, and she just overall seemed in a totally different and totally better place in her life.  It was easy to buy into all of it.

Fast forward to the end of this past year and it was a lot like it had been 4 years ago.  It turns out she had lied to me a lot.  We started out as an affair and as it was pointed out in another thread, I had no 'rights' to hold J to any standard toward me because of that.  However, I disagree with that.  I feel she (and myself) had an even stricter standard because of our past and the fact of the affair.  J and I had discussed this, at length.  Granted when we started, I was under the impression she was leaving her husband, which turned out to not be the case later on, but I never concealed anything from her.  But, that's an entirely different topic.  By the end of 2015, I was readily available to J anytime she wanted and was by all intents and purposes, single and available to her.  For those wondering, J had told me around Jan of 2015 she had left M and filed for divorce.  Late Oct (after the discard started earlier that month) of 2015 is when M actually filed for the divorce (I happened to be in her department when she was served, btw).  Her divorce wasn't finalized until the end of Dec 2015.  As it would turn out, she had lied to me about leaving M, she would move in and out with him over the course of 2015, all the while having a full blown emotional/physical thing with me (all of this was unknown to me at the time).  I'm not shifting blame, I played a part in all this, but I did a lot of it under false pretenses.  Yes, I had an affair.  No, I don't see just because of that reason it gave J the right to lie to me, misdirect me, or generally treat me the way she did because of that.  Granted, I was the 'other guy' in the entire set up and didn't know it.  Had I, things would've been different.  In fact, I wanted them to be different from the onset, but was to weak to resist J.  But that's another topic.

She entered DBT (from the best I could tell, she went through great lengths to fake it, if she lied) in mid-sept of 2015.  At first, this was claimed because she had dated yet another guy (B) in July after we had a pretty big argument in late June (I also didn't attend a wedding with her around the same time, even though we were both still married at the time... .so frankly neither of us was in the position to go).  At the end of July when I found out about B, I exited.  The month of Aug we reconciled, though I shouldn't have in hindsight, and thats when she said she was going to DBT because she wanted to "get better" because of what she had done to me.  Keep in mind M is still in/out of the picture at this time, though unbeknownst to me (as far as I knew, they were still divorcing and the reason it hadn't been final was because of 'paperwork' being 'lost/misfiled' etc - I knew it was a lie, I just ignored it out of selfish hope it was a coincidence).  She entered DBT in mid-Sept (when she finally found a T that offered it).

September was a great month for us.  By the first of October, she was gone.  I tried to hold us together until December, when I found out she had been out "a couple of times" with a guy "friend", R.  At that point, the whole year of cloak-and-daggerness had weighed on me to much and I left, officially.  Frankly, we had been over since October, but as these things tend to do, we didn't officially end until the end of December.  During that last week, we talked very frankly about everything.  Thats when she admitted she had lied to me about M the entire year, said she still regrets B, and still said that R was nothing more than a "friend".  Whether the last two statements were true or not, I'll never really know, but given her pattern, they were attempts at "more than" and didn't pan out how she had wanted.  But, one of the most revealing things to that last week was that she had said she had been going to DBT for me.  So that she could "get better" for me.  For me, the key part to that was she was doing it for me not for her.  I can't see therapy being effective for anyone when they go in to placate someone.  She made several veiled comments about wanting to continue with a r/s during that time.  I had told her that I was to hurt from all the lies (a big thing we had talked about in the beginning) and the trust that had been broken from that.  It was somewhat ambiguous from me because I was torn between continuing or walking away myself.  At one point I had told her that as well, that I wasn't sure what to do.  If nothing else, I have always been 100% open and honest with J.  I've never concealed or lied to her about anything, ever.  Lies carry to much of a price and aren't worth it, especially with her.

January 2016 started out with us not talking for a couple of weeks, then we did for a few days (it was during this time that I found out she had "been on a couple of dates" with someone - not R she said - but nothing serious, as an allusion).  The talking broke down when there was a dozen red roses delivered to her desk and left out where I could see them (I know this because she knew I had to come in after hours that night and I had to walk by her desk.  The flowers had not been there earlier in the day and it was obvious they were left in a prominent spot) and we didn't speak for another couple of weeks.  I was hurt again because of that.  Then came this past Friday.  So, I think we are all up to speed on whats been going on.

As Stein has said, I have wanted her in my orbit as much as I have wanted to be in hers.  I have always been conflicted on continuing or not on an emotional level.  Logically/academically, I know that we aren't going to work.  We can't, because I would be in a r/s involving one person, not two.  One of us would always be moving/growing toward a goal and the other would only be pretending to do that (while cultivating other goals with other people).  That's the stark reality of being involved in a r/s with her.  BPD doesn't, on its face, make her a bad person.  She chooses that path. 

So moving forward in the future, I know have some very hard line boundaries for myself.  I am not going to get involved with J again.  The price of admission isn't worth it to myself.  I can silently wish her all the success I know she wants, but I don't have to be there to see her succeed (or fail, which is the most likely outcome).  J was my first and only affair.  I don't plan to ever get involved again in something like that.  It hurts to many people in the process.  I have been in therapy myself over the past several months.  I have been working on my own FOO issues that have led me to where I am today, which has helped.  No, my T doesn't agree with me being wishy washy with J.  My T has told me over and over I need to "forget the borderline" and move on.  My T has given me great advice, that I haven't followed.  They've supported me in my backsliding with her, but I'm sure they are tired of hearing about her.

Anyway, I am off to the office in just a little while.  Yay, Monday.

This is unfortunately something that cannot be ignored nor can it be "fixed" by DBT.   If you need to radically accept something then it is this.  

When the lie comes easier than the truth and the person does it more or less unconsciously (at the time) then how can you build trust with that person?  I believe you know this and also know you cannot have a healthy relationship with someone you cannot trust.  If your mind is always asking you if J is lying, no matter how softly that voice may whisper inside, what will this do to you ... .to anyone?  Surely you could radically accept this but at what cost to you and the relationship?  Can you even call it a relationship or have true emotional intimacy if there is no trust?

When my ex admitted to deceiving me for a month or more it devastated me because I saw just how easily those lies came to her.  They came out of her mouth like the truth.  It shattered the trust I had placed in her and caused me to question everything that I had a gut instinct about but had given her the benefit of the doubt.  Even though I wasn't looking hard for her to lie after that when I noticed her doing it again, the subtle misleading deceptions, I realized this is ingrained within  her very character, an automated response to something she perceived as needing to be lied about.  It doesn't matter how small or insignificant the thing being lied about is, it is the underlying thought process (conscious or not) that matters.

This literally broke me as I was still hoping she might find a way to come around, to realize what she was doing and take responsibility for herself and her actions/consequences.  It was this recognition and realization on her part (without my guidance) that I desperately hoped for (and a part of me still does) but I know it will likely never come and she will never change.  The reason is because the most damaging lies are the ones she is telling herself.  

So the longer she ignored what she had done, the damage the she had caused, the more withdrawn and distant I became.  As time went on I found myself becoming bitter and even more withdrawn and distant.  This is not me nor who I want to be.  As a consequence to all this I wonder if I could ever be able to completely trust her even if I had another chance to.  The only thing I fear she has learned from all this is how to become a more accomplished liar, and she more or less said as much.  

Now I have been completely ghosted, deleted, trashed like I never existed.  I literally have no reason to still feel attached to her yet I cannot seem to find a way to detach completely.  In spite of how profoundly she has hurt and damaged me a part of me still wants to believe in the person I fell in love with.  That this side of her can rise to the surface and stay there with few to no incursions from the most damaging parts of her "dark side".  There is so much good within her, so much there to really love and cherish, but when the bad parts come to the surface it cuts so deep the good starts to become tainted as does your belief in that good.  

Even if she finally does go and get tested for BPD, assuming she is suffering from it, and gets treatment I question just how successful it will be for a BPD waif (she is primarily a waif like J).  I can certainly see how DBT could be successful with the more extreme cases (raging, physical abuse, etc... .) but with the internalizing waif I have serious doubts (not based on any scientific evidence just my gut and intuition).

So in some ways I am going through much the same process as what you are going through with J except in your case it is 100 times more difficult.  You want so much to believe in the good within her, to hold onto the good and the hope it could prevail, but the bad parts are just to damaging to ignore and/or radically accept.  What I think we both need to "radically accept" is our ex's will almost certainly never be capable of being in a healthy trusting relationship.  The lying is so completely ingrained within their core character it can never be totally eradicated or even managed successfully.  

Yes, I want(ed) to believe that the good in her would prevail.  While I understand she is both 'good' and 'bad' (like normal people), I had hoped for far to long that because she kept telling me she wanted to "be better" or was 'better', that I believed she would be... .at some point.  As I said, reconnecting with her 3 years later she did seem to be just that: 'better'.  It turns out that was, in reality, a lie.  She was better at something: lying.  At least for awhile.  I mean, as of Friday, she was still lying wasn't she?  I don't think she was lying, directly, to me about her feelings toward me but I do think she was lying to herself about the motivation of telling me those things.  After all, why would you say those things to someone if you had no desire to be with them?  What I mean is she made it sound like I was this great person and love in her life, yet she has made it clear "we can't be together".  Whether she believes that she can't because she's 'bad' (or has treated me wrong, or whatever else) and therefore unworthy of me or because she really is that manipulative, I don't know.

As you said, I will always have that doubt.  I would always be looking for that lie, even if she started suddenly telling the truth.  She had said that in our last week, that "matter how much good" she did, I would always doubt.  Even though trust could be rebuilt, it would take time and she's not willing to do that because she feels that I would be 'controlling' her.  It's funny, she said that about M.  She said that he always kept her on a timer and left long lists of things for her to do while he was at work (he worked overnight).  She said she felt so controlled, but I also see why he did that: he didn't trust her.  Of course, he had no reason to, just as I didn't.

For those that are wondering how my day went, I didn't speak to her.  She never reached out and neither did I.  I did pass by her desk once.  I simply waved at her as I did.  She smiled and waved back... .and promptly went back to her messing with her phone.  Previous to that, she had passed by my office door a couple of times.  She scurried past quickly (and luckily I had people in my office both times), but I could see her cut her eyes over to me.  It probably meant nothing, but I presume it was just one of those things like "hey, look at me for a minute and make me feel good".  Like I said, probably not true, but who knows.

As I said, it's time for me to move on.  I mean really move on.  I owe it to myself to do so.

Well, here's an update: 

She contacted me today via text.  We had a brief discussion, which was bizarre to me.   To give you the nuts and bolts of it, I told her to leave me alone.  I did this because it's in my best interest.  This thread and my thoughts over the weekend brought me a new sense of clarity.  I'm done messing around with her, I'm moving on.  I've been used, abused, and mistreated enough.

The conversation wasn't pleasant.  I was aggressive with her.  Not quite a bull in a china shop, but I made a hard stance and stuck to it.  I don't need her or the problems that come attached to her.  At the end, I told her to enjoy her new life with her boyfriend.  Frankly, I don't care if I 'hurt' her by saying it or not.  I'm done being orbited by her. She didn't want me and that's final.  Why should I accept scraps from her?  Who does she think she is to treat me like that? 

Thank you all for talking me off the edge of the cliff. 

Good move LA.  I have to ask though, is there a part of you that thinks this hard line stance will do the exact thing you say you don't want?

You mean knock her out of my orbit and I hers?  I hope so.  I'm done being a lap dog.  I deserve better, as the rest of us here do, and I'm not going to get better by hanging onto even a sliver of her.  Letting go hurts like hell but sticking around hurts more.  As I said before, if she 'loves' me like she claims maybe one day she'll understand.   I mean, what's the point of us continuing any interaction?  Nothing good would come of it. 

I will miss her.  I'm not pretending I won't.  But, I'm tired of my feelings in all this being ignored.  Really, her and I were having circular discussions where she was allowed to dig at me.  I always ended up feeling worse afterward and I'm done with that.  She has her life, whatever kind of life it is, and I have mine.  I'll "get better" where she actually won't.  There was little point and keep going, she was still using me.  Let her figure it out, it's not my problem anymore.

This is good LA.  Being a lapdog is not a good place to be.  What I am getting at here is trying to determine if there is a part of you that believes the hard line stance will cause her to "see the light" and effectively draw her back into your orbit?  Just trying to ferret out any latent stuff here.

This is a very wise insight, LA.  Sometimes love does require sacrifice and it is the darkest of times that most truly test our love.  Love is easy when times are great, but it's when we have nothing left to gain - indeed when it may cost us terribly - that our love is most proved.  This is the realm of true love.

Letting go can be an act of tremendous love.  Like it or not, we have become triggers for our exes, and that is something very hard to accept.  We never intended that, of course, and neither did our partner.  This is just one vicious aspect of a devastating disorder.  We can't be the soothing presence anymore.  We are a trigger.  And in order to cope with that, our ex needs emotional distance.  By intruding upon this, we are only causing our ex more pain.  If we truly love our ex and we truly care about their well being, the best thing we can do in this situation is to let them go.  Let go with love.

Oh, no.  I neither see that as the case nor do I want it to be.  It takes two to tango and I don't plan to dance with her anymore.  As I said, I will miss her.  She was special to me, even if she didn't believe that.  It's time I let her go with love and compassion.  It's time I let her go for my own love and compassion.

Our story was much like The Cowboy and The Rattlesnake.  I knew she was a rattlesnake, so why should I be surprised when she bit me (and she did bite me)?  Even our last conversation was ridiculous.

So, no Stein, I'm not trying to bring her back with this stance.  I do want her to leave me be.  I can't put her ghost to rest with her orbiting me and me her.  I grasp this concept now, when I didn't before. 

Let her go hug the truck.

That's good stuff, Astro. The Cowboy/Rattlesnake reference works well for my situation, too.

Glad you're seeing things the way you are ... .more power to you!

Thanks, Anez.  There was something about this discussion, my thoughts on it over the weekend, and then the past couple of days that made me get to where I am.  I do hope she finds solace in Mr. Roses, I do. But, really, there was no point in staying in contact.  All we were doing was feeding each other and it was hurting us both.  Once again, we had two different motivations for talking.  It's a never ending cycle until one of us decided to end it.  I made that decision.

Basically, she reached out today to "see if I was doing ok".  It just rubbed me wrong.  I mean, she knows I'm not.  So, what's she going to do about it?  Nothing, that's what.  Once again it was about her, not me. I had decided by Monday I wasn't going to have anything else to do with her.  She's well aware of that now.

Like I said, let her go hug the truck.

Well LA, at least she cares somewhat, so there is that.  My ex couldn't care less about me.  I can't decide which is the worse situation to be in.

Well, not really.  She appears to care, but it's just an appearance.  What I mean is that she was asking in what appeared to be an innocent way, but it wasn't innocent nor was it for my benefit.  What I mean is she was checking to see if she still had some control on my emotions and thus supplying her.  After all, she knows how I feel and what I'm going through yet she's moved on to a new r/s.  So what's the point of asking "am I ok"?  No, I'm not, so what are you going to do about it?  Why bother asking if you're going to remain the problem and not be part of the solution?

I'm not saying I need her to get better, what I'm saying is there's no point in me telling her how I'm feeling because it's pointless.  Either it makes her feel more like crap or she was getting "high" off my torment.  Either way, it's pretty screwed up.  Plus, all it did was force me to ruminate on our failure and wouldn't allow me to close the wound up.  Keeping her around was hurting me.  Im tired of my feelings/desires/wants/needs being ignored.  I don't care how she feels or what she's "been through", I've been through just as much as she has.  I didn't bring our end to us, she did.  I tried my damndest to work with her, it was pointless in the end.  I'll be damned if I'm going to sit here and continue to be abused by a mentally ill person in the name of love.  If that's selfish, than I'm going to be for awhile. 

Yes, I am angry.  I'm angry at her that she's still playing me or at the very least trying to.  She's been toying with my emotions all the while moving on with Roses (while telling me she's "having a hard time too".  F that.  Let him have 'her' (whatever version of her she is with him).  Maybe he'll succeed where I failed, but I doubt it.  Look at what she's already done to him.  Do you really think I'm the only one she wanted to keep around?  She's a rattlesnake.

Let her hug the truck.

Hi LA,

Great decision---nice work.  I've followed your story since inception as it parallels mine in many ways.  It's liberating when you have that light bulb moment and develop the resolve to move forward with your life---not hers.  Congrats!

We all have breaking points where "enough is enough".  Your's were the roses, the truck and the self-servicing "see if you're doing ok" text.  Mine were no acknowledgment of my Happy Holidays text, however, she was able to text the following week from the same location where we had one of our best weekends (she was obviously there with someone else). Finally, no TY for helping her daughter with complex physics project (our daughters are best friends and this is my only remaining tie to her).

I've been NC for six weeks after sending my final high-road and thankful goodbye text.  It was hard not to lash out but I recognize that she is disordered and figured it was something that I would later regret.  I don't plan to reach out and am hoping that she doesn't either.  As much as we've become triggers for them they have also become triggers for us.

The first couple weeks were hard but the past week has been much better.  A month ago I'd pass by the Valentine's stuff at the store and become sentimental and whimsical.  Today---same store, same stuff and I really didn't feel anything.

You'll find that as time goes on you will fill your days and nights with other activities and interests that will help keep J out of your heart and head.  I read this many times in various posts and was doubtful---but they were right and it does work that way!

Best of luck and keep posting,

LF

Thanks, LF.  I had determined I was going to politely decline if she had contacted me Monday.  When she didn't, I breathed a small sigh of relief, wasn't surprised she didn't, and moved slightly forward.  Then, out of the blue, she sent me a 'feeler' text saying that she "didn't know what to say" so she would say "this, I hope you have a good day!"  I thought about not taking the bait, but I simply replied with "thank you".  Her response to that was "ok."  It rubbed me wrong and went from there.  The end result was she said to me that she was "sorry about asking" about me and she "won't try to speak again."  Not like she had said much, anyway, other than "ok" and "sorry I bothered you".  It made me feel like she felt she had been doing me a favor this whole time or something by talking to me.  My reply to that was that I thought that would be best and to enjoy her new life with her new boyfriend.  After that, I had to see her a couple of times in passing.  She gave me the 'go to hell' look each time.  Literally it was like a tantrum.  She is an inward rage type, so I'm sure she was raging. 

Let her cry it out to her boyfriend.  I still don't see what the endgame for her was, other than she got the thrill of seeing me hurt.  That's pretty sadistic.  Plus, what was the point of me telling her anything else about how I feel?  She's well aware of it, but she has a new guy, so I don't matter.  Then she has the audacity to confuse me with that mumbo jumbo Friday about her missing "all of me" and whatnot, only to ignore me for almost a week (granted I didn't reach out, but you know what I mean), and then want to see if I'm "doing ok" (after the last conversation we had you could tell I wasn't).  And you follow that up with "I won't try to speak again" (punishment for standing up to her).  Good.  What the heck ever.

I'm an adult with real responsibilities, emotions, desires, and (gasp!) feelings.  If you can't handle that, get out of the way so the big boys/girls can talk, go sit in a corner somewhere, and pout. 

 Not like she had said much, anyway, other than "ok" and "sorry I bothered you".  It made me feel like she felt she had been doing me a favor this whole time or something by talking to me.



LA,

Same impression I got from my ex except she hadn't asked anything about me for months.  Not even a "How are you?" or "What have you been doing?".  Any contact since about November was all about her so the last three incidents were my "enough is enough".

Her response to my good-bye text---"I've been done for months".

I keep trying to remember that in these situations we are adults attempting to relate to those who are toddlers emotionally.  J's and my ex's recent behavior resembles something that would be expected out of a toddler/youngster.

LF

Ah, as if the punches don't keep coming... .

I found out today who my replacement is (a co-worker of ours).  They've apparently been head over heels with each other since December.  They are waaayyy deeper than I thought from what I've been told.  The person who told me doesn't know about J and I (they've been out of work on a medical thing for most of the past year).  So, yeah, there's that.

Still pretty unbelievable that she's saying what she has to me and yet spending every waking moment with this guy.  He apparently cooks her breakfast every morning and dinner every night.  They're making plans to go to AZ in a couple of months.  What I hear though is someone taking care of her and not much in terms of it being a mutual loving r/s. 

Still.  Pretty F'ed up.

I'm sorry, LA.  That hurts so much.  I'm sure you are seeing the pattern, though.  This is BPD.  The honeymoon stage is perfect and that is where she is at with the new guy.  He probably thinks this is all completely real and that he's won the lottery in life.  She probably does too.  We can understand, even as we realize the relationship is headed for a hurricane.

It is a betrayal.  There's no question that the behavior is deplorable.  We just have to try and understand as best we can that this is the result of a very serious disorder.  And we can try to be as compassionate and understanding as we can, even as we acknowledge how much this has hurt us.  Even traumatized us.

It's ok to be angry.  Anger is part of the grieving process and we have suffered a very real loss.  We have lost someone we love.

Hang in there, and I'm really sorry you're going through this.  It hurts like hell.

All I read on here again is one has to accept this behavior, call her out.  Get in as many hurtful words in as you can, if you don't , you'll regret it!

I think you may have a misconception of the purpose of the site.  bpdfamily is a place to support one another in difficult relationships involving BPD, or in healing and detaching from such a relationship.  We aren't a site to bash people with BPD.  We seek to understand BPD in a clincial, holistic way.  And we seek to learn about ourselves and our role in the relationship.  We all had a role and we were all willing participants in the relationship.  Let's look into that and why we did so.

It's been 3 years?  Do you think it might be time to start letting go?  We can help you with that.

What purpose does that serve other than lowering yourself to the emotional maturity level of a self-entitled child?

I have let go, I'm here to let people know, they don't need to walk down the road I did.  You should tell your BPD every thing that you feel, their plan is to exit and give you the silent treatment, get yours words in fast.  C.Stein what you say maybe true, but remember we got involved with a self-entitled child.

Man, this stinks, Astro. I'm really sorry you're going through this and now finding out this horrible news.

J is a mess. I know it hurts and hurts deep and there's nothing we can really say to help with that. Just know we all feel for you. Nobody should have to experience this.

J is the worst. the absolute worst.

It's definitely the pattern and I can see it.  She saw me right after I had the news and I didn't hide my emotions well enough, she instantly asked what was wrong.  At first, I resisted, but then I gave into the dark side and let it out.  She than proceeded to tell me all about how he knows we've been talking, she's told him her past and that included me, has no secrets from him, he has access to her phone whenever he wants it, etc etc.  She claims she told him about us meeting.  Supposedly he's fine with that.  This poor guy doesn't stand a chance.

At the end, I told her thanks for speaking to me and that I hoped she took care of herself and him.  She than sent me this text: "I want to be a friend to you. You were my best friend I told him that as well."  I didn't respond, nor am I going to.

The whole things been F'ed up.  Especially with what I told her last Friday.  Completely unfair to me.

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