BPDFamily.com

This past Tuesday I woke up and realized I cannot pretend anymore.  The facade that my h and I have put on at our church had to stop. 

I do not doubt his faith or mine, and I don't have issues with the church itself or anyone there.  In fact, I love all the people there.  I just couldn't worship any longer in a place where I had to pretend we were a normal married couple. 

So I called my huband and told him all this.  He had very little reaction, which is what I expected.  I told him I was finding another church and that I was getting myself some counseling.  I asked him if he would join me in counseling and he said no.  I asked him why and he said it wouldn't help.

Backstory:  H is exceedingly negative, miserable, and critical.  He is angry most of the time about something, and has crazy outbursts because he thinks I am disturbing his sleep on purpose.  I would never, and have never, done that.  For the most part these outbursts, which he has done for decades, have stopped.  But,  he is substituting new behaviors like charging out of his room and demanding to know why the house stinks/what I'm cooking that stinks. I can be sitting in the living room reading and he still believes I am cooking up a storm and trying to upset him. He has also screamed out some profanities from his room during the night but has no memory of it. 

He actually doesn't remember most of his behavior if I ask him about it.  Denial is his middle name it seems.  NOthing is his fault.  He is also jealous of any talents and abilities I have. 

He can be wonderful and pleasant with others and instantly switch back to his nasty mode with me.  He does not believe there is any issue with his behavior, and he will not acknowledge that he has any part in our dysfunctional marriage.  He refuses to talk to me or anyone else about anything concerning us. 

I withdrew emotionally from him gradually over the years in order to keep my own sanity.  I think he prefers me crying and begging him to tell what is wrong and why he is so mad all the time.  I haven't done that in years, though. 

I'm praying that I will say what needs to be said to the counselor (another pastor) that I'm meeting with on Monday.  This is all new to me.

Hello if you have a hint he has BPD there is a lot to learn and a lot to read . the not remembering things is all part of it. i have been married 18 years and known 17 of those years i had to accept there was a problem and learn the tools and skills associated with all this and how to communicate with him. because he makes no sense a lot of the time as well. HE has no clue of BPD

i am glad  you yourself is going to counseling let them help you though all this and explain things you can do to make things easier for you...

i am glad you found us and keep reading and posting it will help...  

Thank you, Wanda.  I came here almost three years ago because of our daughter who has BPD.  I'm not sure if my H meets enough of the criteria for BPD, but he is definitely disordered.  I am seeing more and more disturbing behavior, mainly very rapid shifts from nasty to nice and back again depending on who is around. 

I have made some notes to share with the pastor/counselor on Monday.  I feel like I need to paint a picture with specific incidents, but I've never done this before so who knows. 

Verbena, self care is important and so good for you for getting a counselor.

As to the church, people do change churches, and your spiritual well being is yours- personal. You don't have to defend it. While I wouldn't suggest making personal relationship issues public, feeling as if you are pretending in your church is also difficult. Hopefully you will find a group- like a woman's group at your church where you can attend as yourself. Even in a relationship, we are still individuals- with different interests and different spiritualities. Since you still like the church you have been going to, and if your H still likes it, perhaps there are times you could still go together, such as holidays so your spiritual/social worlds are not entirely separate. But taking care of yourself and getting help are a good step.

Verbena, Yay!  |iiii You're taking a great step for authenticity.

The discordance between the public face and the private face is maddening. I'm glad you're doing counseling and I hope that will give you some well-deserved support.

When you make changes, the system has to respond. Good for you to shake up your husband's complacency.  |iiii

Thank you for the responses. 

I feel a tremendous burden lifted from my shoulders knowing I don't have to pretend anymore.  I called two people at my church (pastor's wife and daughter) and told them I would be leaving.  I had to tell them something.  It is a tiny church and I had several duties there, so they needed to be aware I would not be back. 

Both said they had no clue anything was wrong and didn't think anyone else did either.  That is my point exactly.  Other people who are around us realize things are not right between us, but my own church family didn't? 

Strangely enough, but not surprisingly, my H has not said one word about any of this since I told him Tuesday.  He did not ask who I spoke to at the church, what I told them (he said I could tell them whatever I wanted to), where I am going for counseling... nothing.  He is basically not talking to me right now actually. 

I think he sees this whole situation as one he has no part in. 

For those that have done counseling, how does this work?  How much detail do I need to give about H's behavior?  I can't see myself just saying, "He's negative and miserable and I don't like being around him." 

I've never done counseling with a minister, so what I say may not be appropriate for your situation. I have done counseling with several counselors over the years and I tell them everything. I figure the more they know, the better their advice will be for me. I don't hold anything back.

Just want to give you a big hug 

Something to think about: some of the symptoms you describe may be organic. Smelling strong smells that are not there, shouting profanities in your sleep... .those can be symptoms of an organic brain issue. Not to worry you, but I had a dear friend who had similar symptoms and it turned out to be brain cancer.

Not saying that is what it is, just something to consider if these are new symptoms.

I think it is standard advice to get ( or have someone get) a good physical if there are any major changes in behavior. That is, if you could get him to get one- that isn't always easy.

I have not done counseling with a minister, but I too would not hold anything back. This is because whoever is trying to help you needs to know the whole story so that they can. I think most ministers have heard a lot of personal problems. I also think they would know local resources if someone came to them with a situation that needed more- such as medication, or more involved counseling. I would think they would need to know the situation so that they could help in the best way they can. It's a great start and hope that this is a help to you.

I have had friends also suggest that get a good physical.  He won't do it if I suggest it for sure, but I agree that he needs to see a doctor.

About fifteen years ago, he went through several months of pretty bad pain with a disc issue.  He refused pain meds but did take a couple of others things for awhile.  I wish I knew what they were because HE WAS A DIFFERENT HUMAN BEING for that period of time.  Pleasant, calm, easy to be around... .

I read here awhile back that some of the same meds used to treat back pain are used to treat mood disorders.  Anyone ever heard this? 

My H is dead set against any and all counseling, medications for any type of emotional issue, and psychiatry in general.  He has plenty to say about people who rely on these resources for their problems.  

I took a low dosage of Paxil for years.  I was prescribed it by my doctor after I had an ovarian tumor the size of a football (so they told me) and a complete hysterectomy.  I felt SO much better once I got on the Paxil, but my husband criticized me taking them the entire time. He seemed to think he knew better what I needed.  

I don't know how long this pastor will have to spend with me tomorrow, but I'm I could go for hours describing what my life has been like with my husband's behavior.  I just don't want it to be a bash-fest.  I'm also prepared to hear some things about myself I may not like.  

I would discuss with the pastor some goals of counseling.

Give 1 or 2 stories to illustrate.  Talk about the impact on your life.

Are you looking for spiritual guidance?  Will this be "biblical counseling"

FF

Good for you in making changes.

This last year I contacted our pastor and let him know what was going on in our home. The pastor met with my H and it has led to major changes in both of our lives. They required that if he wanted to continue to be welcomed he had attend counseling, get off facebook, and attend a specific small group aimed at dealing with emotional baggage.

My concern is that you feel like you need to switch churches in order to make these changes. I'm not sure what your level of involement is in your church but what makes you feel like you have to leave? Did something specific happen? Are you embarassed that if this comes out people will look down on you? If you are in a good church, I would hope that as these things come out, the people there would love you and come around you for support during this time. If your pastor knows both you and your husband it might make things easier for your H to counsel with them. All couples have problems and pastors know that. I guarantee your pastor and his wife have issues too. The people you go to church with may also feel a sense of relief if they can see a couple work through their issues openly instead of keeping the flaws hidden. People can't know what is going on behind closed doors unless those doors are opened. I know the name of every single member of our church but I couldn't tell you which couples are happy and which aren't because they don't tell me. And I'm on our Pastoral Counseling Team! They don't tell anyone. I can't read minds and they can't read mine. They only know what I tell them. And because of that I cannot be offended when they don't know what is going on in my marriage or life.

If you leave your church that is totally your choice. I just hate to see people leave a stable, known place because of fear. I just want you to make sure your motives in leaving are correct.

One other question, how will leaving your church affect your husband? I know for me that if we suddenly left our church, my H would go into a complete meltdown. For him structure and schedules are important. He needs to know that things will be the same. Our church is where the majority of our social life takes place. A new church would cause intense anxiety in regards to new ways of doing things, new poeple, new environment, fears about the unknown, leaving old friends behind, etc. Something this life altering would cause major dysregulations for months.

Chilibean, I felt that I had to leave because my feelings of fakeness with my marriage were interfering with my worship.  Nothing in particular happened to make me leave.  I just couldn't continue the farce. 

I wasn't concerned that if the condition of our marriage came out, people would look down on me.  It already has come out now that I have left, and I don't think anyone there is looking down on either of us.  I think they're shocked because they didn't know, and I know they are praying for us. 

There is no one at this church who doesn't have issues.  We all have issues.  The problem was I could not go to my pastor and tell the truth about my husband's behavior because I feared my husband's reaction if I did this.  He would never have agreed to counseling with our pastor because he cannot accept that he has any part in our dysfunctional marriage, and he would never have tolerated me telling the truth about his behavior.  That is the whole problem.   He accepts no responsibility for anything.

So, it was either continue and say nothing (and have this burden of living a lie before God) or leave and tell them the bare minimum--that I am getting counseling for marital issues and that he is staying. 

That makes sense. I truly believe that God can heal your husband and your marriage. I hope you begin to see new changes soon. :)

So will your hubby go to the pastor for a bible study?  The neat thing about pastors is they can guide people to an answer through bible verses and reading.

Granted, I have seen it backfire, or more properly ricochet and reveal more of my wife's dysfunction. 

Basically the verse was about asking God to open your eyes to sin.  And the obvious point is to see your own sin and repent.

My wife gets really excited reading it and says, "This is going to help reveal FF's sin to me better so I can help him repent", or words to that effect.

They eventually got her around to say it was about her, but there was a yeah, yeah, whatever attitude to it.

FF

If He could part the waters, healing my marriage should be a snap.  He gives us free will, though, and my husband would have to choose to recognize there are problems and his part in them.  In other words, a miracle would have to occur with my husband's mental issues.  Another miracle would need to happen with my heart because I do not love him anymore, haven't for a long time. 

I really appreciate your comments, Chilibean.

 

In the church/biblical sense does he ever talk about sin or sinful attitudes?

What is his involvement at church again.

Sometimes people are ok talking about "sinful attitudes" (vice behaviors) and it can be a nice way of influencing change without saying "you are doing something wrong"

Trying to think about how to get him engaged in a conversation/discussion with a pastor without calling it counseling.

Note:  If your hubby started to change, I think your heart will come around.

FF

FF, I am almost certain my husband is not going to seek any help from anyone at church.  He is against any and all counseling, help, advice from others.  He has refused to talk to me about our marriage for ages; I can't see him discussing it with anyone else.  He's already refused to go to an outside counseling source with me.

It would take a miracle to get him to go to any kind of counseling.  

It all boils down to sin, for all of us.  That is a very unpopular word these days.  No one likes to be accused of it, yet we all have it in our lives because we are all imperfect.  My husband totally believes this--that we are all lost without God's saving grace.  His mental issues won't let him be wrong, though, in our marriage.  He just can't be wrong.  It has to be my fault.  

My H told me to say whatever I needed to when I called the pastor's wife and daughter.  So I told them I was leaving, my husband was staying, I was getting counseling, but he was refusing it. No details whatsoever of his behavior.   If anyone at the church ever brings this up and tries to talk to him about it, I can totally see this backfiring.  He just won't be questioned on anything or discuss anything--not without a miracle.  

FF,

Yes, sin is a topic my husband discusses

because the Bible is the center of our church and sin is the reason we need grace.  He is comfortable talking about sin, even his, as long as it doesn't relate to our marriage.  He does not see that he is any way responsible for the condition of our marriage.  He's already pinned that all on me.  

You have more faith than I do concerning me coming back around to loving him again.  I can barely pray for him right now.  

 

Is your husband saved?  Can he articulate how he came to know Christ? 

I can see how pwBPD can twist things, hmm.

How about this.  What does he think of his role of "headship" of you as his wife or leading the family?

If he thinks it is all your fault, and believes he has a role to play, maybe he will get in the room under those circumstances.

Do you guys ever do Bible study together?

Listen, I'm not doubting at all that you have tried "everything".  My wife and I have a superficial religious part of our r/s.  It used to be deep and connected.  Once the mechanism broke down of letting her know I had a hurt from her and to have her acknowledge and ask forgiveness, well the Christian part of our marriage was gone.  Then when she very casually suggested that I had defrauded her by hiding my religious views prior to marriage, well, that was the last significant religious conversation we have had.  6 months ago or so.

Note:  I didn't trigger when she said that.  I left her to her own opinions and didn't get into it.

FF

FF, yes he is saved and has articulated when and how he made the decision.  We have done Bible studies in groups, not just the two of us though.  

I'm not even sure my husband is BPD.  He's got some serious mental issues, but I don't know that it's BPD.  I came here because of our daughter who definitely has it but is doing okay now.  

I think one of the differences between your wife and my husband is that your wife uses religion as a weapon against you when it's convenient to do so. Obviously, I can't judge her own personal salvation, but she seems to play the game for the sake of appearances.   With my husband, he just avoids those parts of Ephesians that might make him feel guilty.  :)enial and avoidance are huge parts of who he is.  

His involvement at church... .goes three times a week, does a men's prayer group early Sunday mornings, leads the singing occasionally, makes the announcements, does the church bulletins, used to mow the grounds before he got so busy with work.  He is very involved.  This is a VERY small church--maybe 40 people in worship on an average Sunday morning.  He likes such a small group, in my opinion, because he doesn't like big crowds and likes to be a part of things.  

I could be totally wrong, but again I do not see him ever tolerating a discussion of his behavior in our marriage.  I told the pastor I counseled with today a LOT about the behavior.  If my husband had been there, he would most likely have denied it all or said he had no memory of it.  That's what he always says to me if I try to bring anything up... .right before he walks away. 

I know exactly how you feel. I often have to ask myself if I love my uBPDh anymore too. I care about him. I don't want bad to happen to him but I'm not sure if I love him. When he is normal I enjoy being around him. Still not sure if that is love. We have years and years of resentment and hurt and fear and more hurt and mean tones and cruel words. I frequently think of Abigail in the O.T. I'm not sure that she loved her H either. The Bible says her H was a harsh man. I often imagine he had BPD. She knew that he would easily be angered. She knew the right time to talk to him and when not to talk to him. Did Abigail walk on egg shells? I bet she did at times. How long was she with Laban? I bet she was tired of it. I'm sure she was embarassed about the way her H treated David.

The movie War Room has completely changed how I pray for my H. In the 1 1/2 mo since I've began to pray intentionally and specifically for my H and I have seen HUGE changes. It truly is a miracle. I'm also praying that God will heal my hurts from my H and that he will remind me to forgive him, sometimes on a daily basis.

My wife is more likely PPD than BPD.  However, unless they examined her when she was "wide open", I doubt she is diagnosable.

Paranoia drives really weird stories/accusations to come out of her.

I do believe she is saved.   She and her brother went forward during a revival when they were children.  There are parts of her faith that have matured and other parts (self control) that haven't.

From her family she gets a lot of "ends justifies the means" type of thinking.

As incredulous as it sounds, her Mom has said that "it is ok to sin as long as you are clear in your heart that you are attempting to point out sin in someone elses life and not just to sin"

My wife can explain to me how that is ridiculous and then turn around and behave as if it is true.

Note:  About 100-150 is my sweet spot for a worship service.

Verbena,

While I wish you were not going through this.  I enjoy this type of discussion about the church, people and our issues.

Verbena, my husband is very much like yours, denial of the problems -- or covering them up for the sake of appearances -- is part of who he is and how he learned to 'do' his Christianity. He has had pastors who mentioned his poor 'leadership' of our family before in the context of him wanting to go to seminary and be ordained. I sat in on those conversations, so I know what happened. Afterward, he left those churches. The most recent one is the one that I am semi-attending (it's a long story, but I can't sweep sin under the rug anymore), and he will not go there because he is bitter and angry and hasn't forgiven the pastor for the perceived judgment of him. In the meantime, I am the one with the problem because I 'left' the church, and he is trying to figure out how I feel when he shuts down any discussion of my feelings. I need healing, but he doesn't. He told people to pray for me because I was hurting and needed healing.

My husband receives the idea of 'sinful attitudes' very poorly; he thinks it is a judgment on him and he feels 'accused' (how he describes his feelings). I think he has trouble differentiating between conviction and accusation, and as long as people think he is doing what he needs to do, he thinks he is fine.

We were both leaders, and he is an ordained minister. Our new pastor has tried to give advice about how we should be interacting, but he hasn't interacted with both of us and doesn't really know what to do in our situation. Thankfully, our Bishop has said that my husband and I need to be in counseling but didn't specify what that looked like, so my husband is doing that (monthly) with a psychologist. I have a weekly counseling appt.

There are certain sins that my husband is more 'okay' with being problems, porn is one of those. When that comes up in his life, he takes immediate steps that are obvious. I guess it is more of an acceptable sin for Christian men. After a recent relapse, he started going to Celebrate Recovery twice a week. The abuse issues are not really in the 'okay' category. I'm just thankful that he is out of the house more often.

As far as his spirituality, he has a hard time hearing God's voice or feeling the love of God, and he wants God to rescue him from the bad parts of life. He can articulate his coming to Christ and some of the other spiritually significant events of his life, but his faith is different than others that I've heard. He can say the right words and has a lot of Biblical knowledge.

I think it is hard for us as women in the church.

Chilibean, I saw War Room.  I am having a really hard time praying for my husband like I should because I don't love him anymore or even like him that much most of the time.  It's tough. 

Empath, yes denial is a big issue for my H, too.  Someone from the church called me yesterday about a question with some study materials.  She also asked questions about my leaving.  I told her exactly what I did the pastor's wife and daughter.  Interestingly, she said she knew something was off.  She said it had worried her for a long time that there seemed to be no interraction with us whatsoever when we were together at church. 

She also told me that my H had a closed-door meeting for quite some time with the pastor on Sunday night.  So I am curious what that was about but not enough to ask him.  He wouldn't tell me even if I did.  He has still not said a word about my decision to leave or any of it. 

People at church probably have noticed more than you think they have. We've had people comment on our kids (who don't really smile much and are pretty standoffish); then I had someone say recently that they have noticed that I can't have my own life apart from my husband.

I've found those people who have noticed to be supportive and understanding, often they have had difficulties of their own.

empath, yes it's probably more than just the one woman from church who called me a couple of days ago that has picked up on something being wrong.  It's a TINY church, so the number of people who may have noticed isn't going to be a big number.  Still, I would think it was obvious. 

Our church families should and usually do support us.  I know people at my church (now former church) are praying.  There is no one there, or at any church, who does not struggle with something behind the scenes.  It may not be BPD, but it's something. 

Just wanted to pop in and say    And also |iiii  

|iiii Recognizing that you weren't comfortable presenting that facade.

|iiii Recognizing that "breaking" it wasn't a constructive solution. (Making a big deal about the issues with your H at church)

|iiii Recognizing that it was up to you to change the situation, and finding a new church was something you could do.

I'm sorry you are losing a community of people you appreciated worshiping with there.

Thank you, Grey Kitty.  I am confident that I did the right thing in leaving.  I do find it strange that my husband seems perfectly okay with continuing to go there himself  since the cat is now out of the bag there about our marriage. 

At some point, if you get to engage him in conversation about his choice to stay, please make sure that you say and make it obvious that you respect his decision.

Best to keep the thoughts about it being strange to yourself.

What does life look like for you guys if he get's himself happy with his church situation where he is and you get yourself happy with your church situation where you are?  How do you see that affecting the rest of the r/s dynamic.

FF

Formflier, when I told my H that I was leaving our church and why, he immediately told me he was not leaving.  I let him know then that it wasn't my intention at all to force him to leave and that he could make his choice and I could make mine.  He has still not said one word to me about any of this, and it is highly unlikely he would discuss it further with me.  This is one of our biggest problems.  He will not discuss any issue we have in our marriage.  He just won't do it. 

How does this affect our relationship dynamic?  Well, we don't really have a relationship.  WE live in the same home,  sleep in separate rooms,  speak when we need to, and we are civil to each other.  And that is about it.  As the pastor who counseled me said, we're just existing. 

Going to different churches means that we are together less, not that we were "together" before, and it means that we have less to talk about because we do not have the same church family in common anymore. 

WE did talk tonight about finances because I asked him some questions and told him I needed to be more involved.  Just as I've distanced myself emotionally from my husband as a defense mechanism against his behavior, I have also distanced myself for some time from financial matters which he handles.  I told him last weekend (in a text) this needed to change and asked when we could sit down and go over some things.  He ignored the text. 

But tonight when he sat down to pay bills, I was involved.  He didn't like it.  There was a lot of anger under the surface on his part which I ignored. 

Just a thought.

Is the finances or the r/s more important?

I'm wondering if when anger becomes apparent, if there is a way to ask him about it directly. 

What are you feeling right now?  And be ready to validate.  Also be ready for a ramp up and for you to need to disengage.

I'm still getting to know your story, so if you have been down this road and it didn't work, let me know. 

On the on hand, you (the non) need to demonstrate good healthy r/s behavior, even when he is not.  If he is angry, you have a part to play in "dealing with that".  Although you are a wife and not a T.  So, listen, validate, see if you can find a place of empathy to be with him for a short while, then excuse yourself.

Figuring out if you should pivot the conversation to solutions is a bit of another matter.  Likely it is best to express your emotional support and confidence in him that he will find a solution and let him solve it himself.

FF

Verbena, the story I think in getting with you is that your marriage has had no emotional or physical intimacy for decades, and that any efforts you make are rebuffed, and that your husband makes no efforts. And very clearly and insistently he states that he has no issues of his own to deal with.

First off, please confirm that I'm correct.

Second, if so... .is this something you can accept as is, or something that you need to change?

(Sometimes standing up for your own values and needs feels so right that you may want more of it!)

FF, the relationship is more important.  However, there is no relationship.  I have needed to educate myself better on our finances for a very long time.  Even if we had a perfect marriage, I would still need to know more about our money. 

I am struggling to remember a time when I asked him directly about his anger when one of the following didn't happen:

*he angrily told me that he wasn't angry

*he ignored me

*he walked away

I can't think of even one time at least one of those, or a combination, didn't happen. There is little to validate if he won't discuss anything with me. 

Grey Kitty, you're close.  WE have not been physically intimate in about five years.  The rest of your take on the situation is very accurate. 

I cannot imagine accepting this kind of marriage for the rest of my life.  I am praying for an answer because I have none.  I left our church because of the facade I felt we were presenting there, so I've taken that step. 

Years ago, I stopped allowing his behavior to determine my happiness. Sure, his behavior makes me unhappy, but my happiness does not come from him; it comes from my faith and from my family, friends, and interests. 

One of the issues that I was in denial about for a very long time is his jealousy.   After I retired from teaching in 2012, I was able to focus a lot more on my decorating/design business.  The more business that I've gotten, the more praise from others that I've received... .the more negative he has become about it.  I just never wanted to admit that my husband would jealous of my talents and abilities, but he is. 

We live in a town that has quickly become a tourist destination due to the popularity of a television show.  There is a decor store here that was very popular before the tv show and is even more so now.  This past weekend, I was asked by the owner of this store to be a vendor there. I was so excited about this opportunity that I shared it with my husband.  His reaction was the usual--instantly negative, nothing good to say about it.  He did not congratulate me on this opportunity or tell me he believed I could do this.  He does not compliment me EVER on any design work I do.  IF others show me praise or encouragement, he gets very uncomfortable. 

I just think it's sad that he cannot be proud of me for anything I do.  If I praise him for anything (how hard he works, etc.), he is also very uncomfortable. 

 That is a very stark picture of a relationship or of a life, and not one with a lot of hope for improvement.

I sure cannot give you answers. Those are for you to find.

I could ask you a few more questions to help you sort through it. However I'm afraid that they would be at best marginal in light of the guidelines here on the "Improving" board, and better suited to the ":)eciding or Conflicted" board instead.

 

Do you ask him about his anger or do you ask him how or what he is feeling?

That was only thing that jumped out at me from a previous post.

Best to leave the slate blank and let them fill in that blank about their emotion.

FF

Good for you for progressing in your career, developing your talents, taking steps to get counseling and be more authentic and break the facade at your old church.

IMHO, your H sounds like a very insecure person. You know that you can not fix this for him, and in fact, focusing on trying to do that is what had drained your emotional energy. Good for you to be channeling that into things that bring you joy.

Sadly, for him, he can not give you any acknowledgement for your accomplishments, because to do so is so triggering to his fears - "if others praise her she will leave me, or her accomplishments make me feel less accomplished" or something like that. The problem is if he brings you to feel down, then there are two people down, and that does no good to you or the relationship. If there is hope, then that hope comes from doing what you are doing.

When one person makes significant changes, the relationship dynamics change. No doubt he is feeling the changes. However, he may not know what to do at the moment. He may gravitate towards you, or not, you don't know. As to attending the new church with you- if his pattern is to react negatively at first, and to be insecure, then the most likely thing he would do is to refuse to change churches. However, if you leave him be, and don't get into it with " him, then he may or may not like going to church on his own. He may change his mind. I would not expect anything, but let go and see what happens.

The two of you have been in a pattern of some sorts for years. Change involves risks, but without change, the pattern is likely to not change. You have taken some big steps, which opens the door to different possibilities, and since they involve being true to yourself, they are good ones.

As to attending the new church with you- if his pattern is to react negatively at first, and to be insecure, then the most likely thing he would do is to refuse to change churches. However, if you leave him be, and don't get into it with " him, then he may or may not like going to church on his own. He may change his mind. I would not expect anything, but let go and see what happens.


I guess I wasn't clear on this.  My goal was never that he follow me to another church.  I left our church that we went to together because I did not want to worship in the same place given how I felt that our marriage was a facade to our church family.  It was interfering with my ability to worship.  It was a huge burden on me.  If he wanted to go where I am now going, he could.  But I am not going to fake it at this new place. 

Notwendy, I appreciate your thoughtful response.  Yes, he is very insecure.  I think I've always known this, but his anger and other behaviors have overshadowed that. 

I feel like I am getting to the place where I am focusing more on my choices and my talking to God about this than I am his behaviors. 

Oh I get it now. I thought you were wondering why he still wanted to go to the church you left, but now I realize it was because it is now known that you aren't the couple people assumed you were, not because you wanted him to go with you. I really get that. I think it is important to be in a peaceful state in prayer and that you want your peace. Feeling you are putting on a front would interfere with that.

I think his need for denial is strong. He may also feel he has a support system there and want to attend for that as well.

I think it is great that you are taking steps to take care of you!

Thank you, notwendy!  Are you a therapist in real life? lol 

I am struggling with asking him again if he will go to counseling (he flat refused when I asked him two weeks ago) or just waiting to see how this goes. 

My 30-year old daughter, who has BPD but is doing very well now, is completely astounded that something as serious as me changing churches and going to therapy has produced no reaction in her father.  She also doesn't understand why he won't go to counseling with me.  I have no answers for her except to say that she isn't going to be able to make sense of it. 

Nope, not a therapist, but I have tried to make some sense out of my FOO -raised by BPD mom and also the relationship issues in my marriage. Co-dependency seemed a normal way of life. Self-care was one of the lessons I learned.

I also learned to not put a lot of thought into what seems like paradoxical reactions. If you consider that pw BPD have a hard time managing their feelings, they can react in ways that seem odd, but don't reflect what they are feeling. One way they can react to perceived abandonment is to act as if they don't care or nothing happened. Another is to act as if it is their idea or to be rejecting as a defense to not being rejected.

I don't know what your H is feeling- he may not even know, but that isn't your responsibility. You didn't do anything wrong by taking care of your emotional and spiritual well being. In fact, by not stepping in to try to "fix" your H's feelings, you are giving him the space to deal with them himself in whatever way he can. This could be his way, and so not getting into it with him- not making him wrong because he acted this way- you are letting him take care of it. If you did get into the way he is managing, it would be stepping into his business.

So, no, I am not a therapist, but I watched my mother do this growing up. Although our marriages are different in some ways, there is some overlap in the sense that my H and I don't share a lot of common social or personal interests. I don't think he likes it, but on the other hand, it takes much effort to plan to do something together in a social setting. He is fine with just the two of us. So, with the encouragement of a counselor, I have also made steps to build my own interests and friends, and to just do things on my own. Like you, this isn't a first choice for me, I wish it were different, but it is the way it is. However, if I do something new, or different, his response is often indifference- I think it is an emotional defense- to not allow others to think they can bother them. While I would hope for encouragement- " yes, that activity would be good for you" I get t " well then just GO to your meeting".

This is my personal ideas about this kind of behavior, but it seems like a spiritual short sightedness. - and bear with me on this one as it could relate to religion, but not at all, and any religion. I think we all have some fixed resources- money, material things, but to do something like encourage someone isn't limited. I sometimes wonder if they think that by giving someone approval, encouragement, recognition, it somehow takes something away from them, but it doesn't.

A person could be very ethical, hardworking, do the right thing, pay bills- all these are good and admirable acts, but still, not be able to say " that's great honey that your career is doing well".

Because in a way, when we give that, the reward is to us- we feel good, but I wonder if that is something that someone with inner pain is not able to feel. One example of material giving is the Angel Trees at Christmas. These are trees decorated with pieces of paper with a child's wish on them- children from families who have little income.

On the paper might be a wish for a toy, a pair of shoes. You are given the child's wishes, age, size, but nothing else. You will never know who the child is, or see them open the present. So, then you may spend a modest amount of money picking out something for the child, wrapping it, and donating is. The "return" you get in happiness doing it is all within you but it is worth more than the money spent. In a way, we don't even need the child for us to feel this, just our thinking about the child being happy with the gift generates good feelings.

People like it because it makes them happy doing it, and it helps someone. There is a personal return for helping, or being nice, without any tangible reward. I wonder if someone with BPD can not feel this "return" in themselves- after all, it is something we generate in ourselves- not done by anyone else- so to them, it feels like a loss?

There have been threads where people mention their BPD spouse forgot a birthday, or Valentine's Day gift, and again, the pleasure in the gift is the self generated feeling of giving. Maybe they didn't forget because they are mean or uncaring, but if someone doesn't generate this feeling for themselves, then maybe they don't think about it as much? This doesn't mean we accept being treated poorly but it could explain this.

Maybe your H finds it hard to give you approval or encouragement because, inside, he is not able to feel the good feeling from this. If he feels bad about himself, then he feels bad feelings?

Maybe your H finds it hard to give you approval or encouragement because, inside, he is not able to feel the good feeling from this. If he feels bad about himself, then he feels bad feelings

You're probably exactly right, notwendy.  

When I found out that we were having a grandbaby, I spent months working on a room for him in our house.  The night that my H helped me move in the furniture and hang stuff on the walls was probably the worst he's ever behaved during an installation.  (He has helped me with installations for clients for years.)  

He was incredibly angry the entire time, rude to me, and full of negative comments about everything I had done for the room. Afterward, when he was calmer I told him I was really proud of the room, thanked him for helping me with it, and said that it would have meant a lot to me for him to compliment me on all my efforts.  I told him that I was the kind of person who liked to get compliments.  

His response?  "Well, I'm not. And I already told you you did a good job on it."

He has never told me I did a good job on ANY design, ever.  

So, yes, he doesn't get a good feeling from giving compliments the way many people might.  As far as him actually believing he complimented me when he did the opposite?  I really wonder if he believes that.  

This is still the "maddening" part of this disorder.



Early on in my wife's long term dysregulation  (if that is what it is) she actually apologized to me for "being loud". 

1.  I was shocked at any kind of apology

2.  Was shocked she attempted an apology via text vice in person

Since I was still not totally back on "my game" I said something to her about the "effe bombs" that she dropped and she honestly (not dysregulated) says she did not use effe bommbs.

I knew enough not to argue with her.

FF

This is very insightful, Notwendy. Hopefully without hijacking this thread, I want to add a bit to this thought.

My husband frequently does something nice for acquaintances and strangers, yet it's like pulling teeth for him to copy a short video for me (after 7 requests)--while he'll make dozens of CDs for a guy who does a local radio show. I realize it's his way to try to ingratiate himself and get people to think he's a nice guy.

However all this giving doesn't come without strings. He frequently complains that "people don't appreciate me."

I think you're absolutely right, Notwendy, that this "giving" feels like a loss, particularly if it's not reciprocated in kind. With me, he expects so much verbal appreciation and acknowledgment for any little thing he does which contributes to our lives. And I give that to him, yet he'll often feel as though I haven't said anything at all, so I find myself thanking him several times for the same event or thing.

Yet, in my case, he has no awareness of thanking me for things that I do which only benefit him.

This is what I don't understand at all.  Does your wife, FF, actually know she is lying when she says this?  If all eight kids said, "Mom, you know you have a filthy mouth and say the F-word around us all the time" what would she say?  If you produced a recording of her spewing the F-word, what would she say? 

If if I made a video of me asking my husband something, him completely ignoring me, and then him telling me seconds later that he DID answer me and even exactly the words he used, would he then know that he was lying?

 

My experience with recordings is do not use them to confront.

They will claim the recording is faked without batting an eye and then accuse you of breaking their trust. 

It happens amazingly fast.

Very much like when I had a paternity test set up to prove I did not have a love child.  As soon as her paranoia knew it was about to be caught, without blinking or hesitating she said  "So, it's not your child but you still had sex with her, " (her being the momma of my "baby"

I mean, there's not much you can do with that, so don't go there.

FF

My guess is that my wifes feelings overwhelm her to the point where she does NOT think she is lying and believes what she is saying.

FF

I think confronting with evidence is felt as quite threatening. I have seem my mother dissociate in this situation to the point where, in the moment, she is reacting as if attacked. I think it feels as if they will say anything to stop it. I don't think they consider this lying- in the sense of doing something wrong any more than we might do something in self defense that we would not consider the right thing in a non-threatening situation.

I try to look at the big picture. If someone thinks in black and white terms that they are basically good people- they pay taxes, don't tell big lies, don't steal, then lying isn't something they think they do. In actuality, most of us tell while lies " does this make my butt look big" the answer to that is NO! no matter what the truth is but if we are honest, we don't lie in general. I think they see this the same way.

I can trust my mother in most aspects. I know that she won't steal from me. She wouldn't tell a big lie. She obeys the law, gives to charity. But you bet, given the chance she would snoop all over the house and not admit to it. Still, she is basically ethical so it is odd. I think this is why the lies surprise us as it is inconsistent.

I have seen this in my wife.  When I learned about SWOE book and BPD for the first time was during a MC session.  My wife made an allegation that I was hogging all the speaking time.  MC corrected her and back it up by saying that MC had a watch and was keeping track of equal time.

Wife went nuclear, hopped and danced around room, flung open door, wagged her finger at us and said some things and that she would never come back.

Well, I stayed and MC told me about BPD.  First I had ever heard of it.

FF

I remember one of the times when I gave my h evidence of what I had said to be true because he had asked for it. He started the 'silent treatment', and then there was a greater dysregulation. It turned really bad.

We had one of those weird conversations a couple of days ago where he started getting upset about some things that he had thought that I had said. He came back at me with "aha, I knew that you thought that... ." while I was trying to figure out what he was talking about.

My husband doesn't encourage me in my attendance at a different church either, but his actions are the reason that I need to make a different choice for myself. That makes him feel bad, along with the fact that other people know that I'm not at church with him. So, often he withdraws after church.

Last Thursday night, I asked my husband again if he would go with me to counseling.  He said no. 

WE talked for three hours and afterward I felt that my eyes were truly opened.  I told him that I was not willing to continue living for the rest of my life in this miserable marriage.  I mentioned divorce more than once as being inevitable if we could not change our marriage.  He completely ignored these comments. 

During our long conversaton, the topic of "the letter" came up.  He wrote this letter to me several years ago.  It was VERY long (at least ten pages) and typed.  He is an incredibly slow typist so it had to have taken him ages to finish.  He drove it to my school (this was before I retired) and put it on the steering wheel of my car. 

About 18 months ago, I brought up this letter and he said he did not write it.  No memory of it, had no idea what I was talking about, wouldn't discuss something he knew nothing about.  Most of this letter that he says he didn't write was blaming me for our problems.  No accountability whatsoever for his part in anything. 

Anyway, on Thursday night the letter came up again.  I acknowledged that he said he never wrote it only to have him turn the tables.   He said he did write the letter and that he never denied writing it in any way, shape, or form. 

He also says that he has a clear memory now of some really awful things I said to him about our physical relationship (which we haven't had in five years) and he is positive of the exact words I used. 

My H admits that he has no memory for times or details, cannot think of any examples of situations where I have mistreated him, but he knows that I have.  But suddenly, he remembers these awful things I said five years ago.  There is zero truth in what he is claiming.  I did not, and would not, ever say to him what he claims that I did. It did not happen. 

My H saw our conversation as me "coming at him" with incidents of his behavior, behavior that he claims never happened and for which he is not accountable.  I told him I could understand how he would feel attacked, but that I couldn't discuss WHY I feel the way I do without explaining the specific behavior over three decades that has brought me to this point. 

He doesn't get that.  He claims that I don't treat him right and that his behavior (because it never happened) has nothing to do with mine. It's just me trying to pin it all on him.  I admitted to many of my faults during this talk we had.  He admitted to a few minor things and finally made the blanket statement, "I'm sorry if anything I ever did made you feel this way."  Yet, he doesn't remember or even know what I'm talking about for the most part. 

I really felt that I was looking directly into his disordered thinking. 

And here is the strangest turn of events.  He is acting like a completely different person.  Pleasant, helpful, not boiling over with anger all the time, not negative at all. 

Any ideas on what is going on here?

Just a guess, but bottled up stuff has come out and he feels less pressure, so is better.

I would suggest you set up counseling and let him know you are going to improve your marriage.  Don't threaten, just inform.

Have you ever done counseling together?

FF

Very interesting. One of my favorite sayings around here is "Nothing changes without changes."

You decided to change the status quo. The church move was a change. Telling him that you are not willing to live your life in this miserable marriage is a change. (I would note that those both sound like healthy changes to me.)

He appears to be shifting in response to your changes. How much and which direction, and where he stops is up to him.

What more comes of it remains to be seen. Some pwBPD are relatively self-aware of their own behavior and express regret (and usually self-hatred along with it) for it later. You don't describe this as anything your H did before, and he didn't do much of it here either.

I do have one bit of advice for you--shift your focus away from getting him into counseling with you. It may not help even if he does agree.

Instead focus on what behavior you want from him, what you need from him. Not just what you want him to stop doing, but also what you would like him to actively do. You may not even feel up to asking for these things, but perhaps you will at some point. Start by thinking about what they are. If he gets to a point of saying "I want to do X for you, but cannot figure out how." you might direct him toward some sort of therapy as a way to get there.

Meanwhile... .have you considered individual T for yourself?

We've never been in counseling together.  He is not going to tolerate me telling a counselor in his presence about his behavior for over three decades, and he is not going to risk his disordered thinking being exposed. 

He just isn't going to do it, any more than he is going to ever be accountable to me for his behavior.  So, I am not asking him anymore to go with me.  He has zero self-awareness and no counselor will make him realize anything about himself that he doesn't want to believe.  I plan on going again myself this week. 

The real questions now are... .

Can I ever feel anything for him as I used to?  Has his behavior ruined all that for me?  Can he maintain this 180-degree shift in his demeanor?

Time will tell.  I am just asking God to guide me one day at a time.  I will say that I feel a huge relief since Thursday night when my H and I talked.  I see clearly what I am dealing with and know more than ever before that I cannot change this on my own.   

Hello Verbena, you have pretty much described my ex. For 35 years I dealt with the same experiences. I always thought he was just BPD, but it turns out he was also a narcissist and misogynist. It is a very complicated situation when they have a mix of co-morbid disorders and are able to hide some so well.

It was when I really started trying to make things better that my ex pretended to go along, all the while stabbing me in the back, secretly stealing and hiding our monetary assets and waging a smear campaign to sway people that he wasn't the problem; he projected it all onto me. These things can and do happen with disordered individuals.

I just don't ever want to see this happen to anyone else, so please protect yourself!

What really stood out was the extreme jealousy he exhibited of my talents. 

Have you ever done a Bible study together?  Gotten together in a small group to discuss it?

The talk you had is great.  Somehow, a habit of communication needs to be formed that is somewhat non-threatening.

So, get together with a pastor to discuss a book in the Bible or a book.  Boundaries would be a great book to work through.

FF

The thread has reached it's maximum and is being locked.

Thank you to all who contributed it has generated insightful understanding and compassion around many of aspects of how to continue to improve relationships in all stages of being together.

*mod*

sweetheart