BPDFamily.com

Are we dealing with sadistic and sociopath personalities? Has anyone felt that their exs just loved to hurt them? When they disguard us how many of these exs felt bad about doing so? Just a day or days before they expressed their undying love for you? Your the one they loved so much? Blah blah. I always felt my ex loved to "hurt" me. She would even say oh I cause you so much hurt. It hurts you to love me. Then their was a time she has said she needed time and space. Haha half the time. I remember saying to her I had felt hurt by what she said. When she answered me an hour later she mentioned me saying I felt hurt. I then said oh no I'm wrong I don't feel hurt. Right away she seemed so anxious that I took it back feeling hurt. Like she wanted me to say it again.  I also feel how can a person who tells you I love u etc etc be with you etc and then the next day dump you like you never existed? No feelings into the next lover. That to me sounds a bit like a sociopath. I know BPD is a serious illnes but I feel being a little bit of a sociopath also is a part of this disorder. Anyone else feel or have similar experiences?

Well, I guess that there are people who have other psychological issues along with their BPD.

Are they all sociopaths? It's difficult to answer as they are struggling themselves against their disorder.

In my case what I felt close to what you are describing is when I said to my exBPDgf when we were together that if ever in the future we break up that she never tells me anything about her new r/s. Three years later, bingo, she contacts me to tell me how she felt when she made love to my "replacement". She probably knows that this kind of thing would hurt me. Is it a sociopath behavior or is it BPD trait, I don't know, but in any case it hurts.

Agreed. Mine as a teen would make up stories about sleeping with some guy from High School. I later found out 28 years later it was a lie. Now before we broke up my ex was telling me she fooled around with a guy that I knew from the block. She then changed her tune when I made a little stink about it to she had sex with him. She changed her tune to deliberately "hurt" me. That to me is sadistic nothing more.

It's very interesting, what you are saying. I actually am still doubting whether it is true or not that she went out with a guy for several reasons that indicate the opposite (never saw a single pic of them, nor a single single comment from him on the social network). Now of course, I may be wrong and it is perfectly possible that she did go out with him. 

Yes! It's crazy! My ex was from my teenage years . We were friends for 2 years. She was Normal! My mom found out I was dating her and broke us up.  After that me ex I was told went off the deep end. Started fooling around with anyone and everything on the block. Also was in a mental hospital at 14 for 2 months.I tried getting back with her and she became another person. Told me yea lets get back then no. Then yes and no again. I was like what the heck is going on. Then I just stayed friends with her for a while and she would tell me all this crap about sleeping with this guy and that and only now after all those years I had found out she lied. Just doing it to hurt me. And hurt me on purpose. So are these ppl pathological liars? ABSOLUTLEY! Your ex might in that reguard been lying to you as well.

yes. absolutely! They crush you! I went through restriction order failed against me. Female judge denied all her false allegations. BPDs hurts innocent partner. As more partner has no angry as more it crushed. BPDs are mentally ill!  I think they can live only with Narcisse or with a heavy abuser. If we are in relationships with BPD , we are all codependent. We are all caretakers . but we have normal feelings and attachments. BPD doesn't.

I had no idea back then about BPD. This was in 1987. I myself was only 14. Now when my ex found me again in 2013 she wanted to open up about our past and I didn't. I guess I remembered how and what she did to me as teens back in "87". I shut her down for like 2 1/2 years in Facebook. Might just even call it my 6th sense or "gut feeling" if you will. It told me that if I were to listen to her and open up our past she will hurt me like she did then and do all the stuff she did then too. So I didn't listen and here I am. She is still the same lying hurtful sadistic sociopath she was as a teen. The girl I loved is gone. This new person is a complete monster. Just looking to suck your soul out and then it's on to the next "victim".

Hi Confused108

BPD is on a spectrum - on the one extreme the behaviours might be relatively mild, at the other end of the spectrum the behaviours might appear very destructive and even malicious.  To be a sociopath, they would have had to be setting you up to fail in order to get their kicks from your emotional turmoil. That's not how borderline relationships start.

If that's what you genuinely feel though, then you may have misdiagnosed your ex and are possibly on the wrong site.

Have you revisited the diagnostic criteria for BPD recently? That might provide more clues as to what was actually driving your ex's behaviour.


Fanny

Thanks you FannyB for your response but my ex is BPD. She exhibits 7 of the 9 traits to be diagnosed BPD. Also I don't think my ex sought me out to set me up for a relationship then dump me. I feel she at one time did love me very much. And since my mother threatened her life at a young age to stay away from me made her flip. My mother also told her i was dating another person at this time that was not true at all. I have spoken to some of her exs and she exhibits the same with them as well. Love /hate push /pull but does not treat them in a sadistic fashion. I was the only one she did that too.

I'm not sure about sociopaths as such but I know my ex-friend has absolutely no qualms about hurting me or any regards for how I'm feeling whatsoever.

I get the impression that everything is about them and about them only. Never about anyone else. I don't think they even regard our feelings or grasp how their behaviour affects us at all.

My ex-friend has also said deliberately said things which he knows would hurt me and has even admitted he has.

Thought this might be helpful to your thread Confused108.  :)

Quoted from  DIFFERENCES|COMORBIDITY: Borderline and Antisocial Personality Disorder (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=156878.0)

Yes, it feels like m ex is punishing me. I don't know if she likes it or not, but it definitely feels like it is directed at hurting me.

Read this What is Sadistic Personality Disorder?

Living with someone who suffers from sadistic personality disorder can be heartbreaking and terrifying. Sadistic personality disorder, though no longer considered a valid diagnostic category in the current revision of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual 4th Edition (DSM-IV), is still researched heavily as a personality disorder.

Sadistic behavior is more than just being mean or inflicting pain on a person or animal; to be truly sadistic it must give the perpetrator emotional or sexual pleasure. Sadistic behavior in and of itself does not necessarily mean the person has a personality disorder. While the person may exhibit sadistic personality disorder symptoms, the behavior must be a long-standing, daily infliction of physical or psychological pain to be considered a sadistic personality disorder.

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Causes

To date, no singular cause of sadistic personality disorder has been identified, though theories abound. Research fails to show a clear and common factor among people diagnosed with the disorder; some have suffered abuse as children, some have brain abnormalities and chemical imbalances. Others have nothing in their personal or medical histories that would cause alarm or point to future personality disorders.

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Symptoms

Sadistic personality disorder symptoms mirror and overlap symptoms of other personality disorders, often making it difficult to obtain a single diagnosis. While this list is not exhaustive, people with sadistic personality disorder commonly have at least four of the following symptoms:

Cruelty to animals, children and other people

Chronic anxiety, irritability, and anger

Poor impulse control, including obsessive compulsive behavior

Frequent displays of inappropriate self-disclosure

Reckless endangerment of self and others

Preoccupation with daydreaming and fantasy

Paranoia

Chronic dishonesty about self and others

Rigid self-discipline

Hypochondria

Overly dramatic or unwarranted emotional reactions in social situations

Eccentric thinking or beliefs

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Gender

Behaviors typically appear during adolescence and escalate over time, and according to a study published in the March 2006 issue of "Journal of the American Academy of Psychiatry and the Law" researchers determined that males are much more likely than females to be affected by the disorder. Males are also more likely to manifest their sadism in a sexual manner.

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Behaviors

The most common behavioral characteristic of a person with sadistic personality disorder is cruelty used to intimidate and dominate a person or animal. Sadists lack empathy and derive pleasure from witnessing and causing pain and suffering.

Cruelty inflicted by a sadist may be physical or emotional, and is typically harsh and extremely aggressive. Physically, he may go to great lengths to cause pain that cannot be seen by outsiders, e.g. bruising on the feet or areas covered by clothing, but that will remind his victim he is in control. Emotionally, the sadist can arguably do even more damage by berating and humiliating his victim in social settings and restricting freedom of thought or movement. He may use intimidation and terroristic threats of violence to keep family members or friends in line, and display violent outbursts in private to use as leverage against disobedience.

Individuals with sadistic personality disorder frequently have other personality disorders, such as borderline personality disorder or antisocial personality disorder. Clinical depression and oppositional defiant disorder are common, as well.

Despite its removal from the DSM IV, research on sadistic personality disorder symptoms and behaviors continues in an effort to better understand both sadistic personality disorder and those it affects.

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References

Encyclopedia of Mental Disorders: Sexual Sadism- www.minddisorders.com/Py-Z/Sexual-sadism.html

Healthy Place: Sadistic Personality Disorder- www.healthyplace.com/personality-disorders/malignant-self-love/sadistic-personality-disorder/menu-id-1469/

“Journal of the American Academy of Psychiatry and the Law:; Sadistic Personality Disorder and Comorbid Mental Illness in Adolescent Inpatients; Wade C. Myers, et al.; March 2006

Mood Disorders Association of Manitoba: Sadistic Personality Disorder- www.depression.mb.ca/documents/infoshts/Personality_Disorders/SADISTIC%20PERSONALITY%20DISORDER.pdf

- See more at: www.healthguideinfo.com/other-mood-disorders/p114723/#.dpuf

Thank you Suzn as well for what you posted.

I have heard of ex BPDs giving us Nons the "silent treatment" as a punishment. I know mine did. So if they "get off" in doing that it spells out a bit sadistic tendencies. Now are all ppl with BPD the same? Do they all act like this? No I don't think they do. Every person is different.

I don't think so. I'm pretty sure my ex is pure BPD, no co-morbidities except adhd. He was horrible at times, but I believe he couldn't control it and felt immense shame. I actually think some of the pain he caused through pulling away and lack of commitment was his caused by his understanding that he couldn't control himself and he really didn't/doesn't want to hurt me. He's more like a vampire that compulsively destroys the thing he loves than a different type of predator that enjoys the process.

Well no 2 BPDs are the same. Everyone has experienced different traits etc. one thing is for sure they are very ill people.

Confused108 hi

BPD is a spectrum disorder in Cluster B - where a lot of behaviours from different disorders may overlap. Like Fanny B says, one end of this spectrum may be experienced as something incredibly hurtful or ruthless by others. However, this only (although it is something huge) is not enough to diagnose an individual who is somewhere in the Cluster B category - and descriptions are pretty general anyway.  Neither for instance does the intention aspect - deceitfulness- alone suffices to call someone ASPD or silent treatment is just sadistic - passive aggressive personalities do that a lot. A lot of Nons con each other for profit or gain and sometimes enjoy this basically. Sometimes just low self-worth causes people to experience satisfaction when significant others are hurt by their actions. As for ASPD, people with ASPD usually have very flat emotions. Sadists "love" their "objects." Someone just disappearing may have dissociative disorder. It goes on.

For instance, my ex boyfriend has certain consciously exploitative tendencies but he is too emotional to qualify as someone with ASPD or just NPD. Interestingly, there are a lot of people with antisocial personality disorder (lower end of the scale) who go on about their lives without causing the emotional or otherwise damage say a NPD or BPD may cause. When I first came to this site, I wrote next time I'll date a psychopath, at least they are a bit more collected, which wouldn't be false in some examples:))

I'm not writing this to minimize what you went through. You are wondering whether you were with a sociopath or a sadist and that in itself is enough. You know what you are feeling, you know how hurt you have been. That is real and valid even if a group of experts came together and found nothing wrong with your ex partner. They have had this effect on you and that's important in itself. You matter.

When officially diagnosing someone though, motives and certain mechanisms are important. When I was down with OCD, I could probably tick many of the symptoms listed for sadistic personality disorder but I'm not one. (Don't ask my BPD/NPD ex, I'm his persecutor:)) Does this mean that your ex was not any of these? No. Given the gender bias, it is probable, too. As for BPD, the link below helped me understand certain mechanisms behind my ex's actions that I could call psychopathic, sociopathic etc in everyday conversation but that doesn't say much about him. When I call him sadistic - even though I've never experienced life with a full-fledged sadist- that says something about me: I was badly hurt. Sometimes, just lack of empathy and behaviours resulting from that is enough to have this effect on us. The way my T described him was BPD with strong narcissistic traits or BPD/NPD with sadistic traits - still not much I suppose. And yes, I know that he enjoyed hurting me. This wasn't accidental. Open up and share a vulnerability with him, next thing he does (usually in a week or so) is to attack you with it - using your own terms and phrases. My low-grade NPD mother does it, too. Abusive people do. Certain things of my ex are pretty sociopathic but he isn't ASPD. I probably experienced his NPD and a bit  of his BPD as ASPD. When I read about the experiences here, I think most (though not all) are also things pwNPD are capable of. Many experts also agree that pwBPD are narcissistic but the root cause is different.   

Anyway, here is the link:  https://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a102.htm

So where does leave us about ourselves? I know that we are all trying to make sense of what is happening to us and naming things helps us achieve closure and emotional safety. Learning about BPD and other disorders helps us tremendously. However, unless someone is officially diagnosed and if we have different suspicions, unfortunately, we may never fully know.

We have ourselves to look at though. And there, luckily, we know. If we are needing to call our exes psychopath etc (I sometimes think of my ex as an emotional sadist) it means that we were in relationships that we found very abusive regardless of their diagnoses - which may shift or be categorized differently in the next book anyway. Our feelings show that we have some boundaries and maybe we can work on them when we are ready.

I know that intentions of a person plays a big role in our understanding of that person; when certain things are unintentional, it's easier to forgive them as well. I personally don't care about whether my ex hurt me intentionally or unintentionally anymore; he did both. The effect on me wouldn't probably change in some more hurtful examples. The relationship was abusive whatever his disorder is. That says I should heal. Shall I forgive him somewhere in this healing? I don't know. My goal is indifference. However, if it was forgiveness, I think I would forgive the person regardless of his diagnosis. (Still, I can't think of anything beyond acceptance, detachment and indifference for my own sake at the moment.)

Take good care of yourself,

TW

I understand your thinking this... .the domestic violence people told me they thought mine could be anti-social as well. It's really hard to know. We seem to know them better than most. I see NPD in mine too... I don't know if I will ever know, but I am afraid of him... .I feel sorry for him to. It's really sad to have been so in love with someone so scary.

Oh my ex was def a narcissist. My god all the selfies on FB! I used to laugh and say wow they must really think they are the bomb! Lol! My ex told me she wanted to put a pillow over my head. Take that as scary!

I hate to tell you but mine did put a pillow over my face! Between that and holding me on the floor with his hand over my mouth and then waving a gun around in the air saying "it's going to be a long night,,," That's what got him into jail... .  after a 2 months separation, stupid me took him back for 6 more months then he fought me on Xmas so I would leave the house so he could bring a woman into our bed for me to find! Talk about mean and evil... .that's why I think mine is more than BPD, yet he has all of the symptoms - It's so hard to pin point it... .I don't think I will ever truly know. I think it's scary he is having a baby in a couple months. Really scary... .I have been reading books on all the disorders. Mine would also wave knives around me to scare me... I don't know why I never felt totally afraid while I was in it. I guess because I thought he was just trying to scare me and would not really do anything for real. Not until he held me on the floor- I was truly petrified at that moment! I don't know how he is controlling himself now. It makes you think they do it on purpose when they want to scare you.

Without wanting to make junky psychology as I am not a psychologist, it seems to me that your ex is more than just BPD. He seems to be a psychopath.

I know... .or sociopath. I am not totally sure. I asked him if he had any feelings once. He asked me what I meant by that... .he said he doesn't understand why people get all emotional. He described his "feelings" as being what most people would describe as thoughts. He used to try and figure out what he was as well. I have seen him break down and cry... .it took allot. He was a Marine, so I know he has had some training on how to handle himself as well. I have seen him stomp his feet and spin in a circle like a toddler... .I have seen him have temper tantrums and overtime I was on the phone, he had to get in my lap and try and get all my attention. I really have allot of strange stories... .He loved to manipulate therapists. I think he got a kick out of making that crazy eyed look, like staring and tilting his head... .pretending he is psycho. I would always handle him very well. He just decided he was afraid of me eventually because I would call the police if he got out of hand. He has the fear of abandonment very much... .he would never get over when we separated the first time. He would always remind me of it years later... .how I abandoned him! Even used those words. He drinks, will take pills, cuts himself (which most psychopaths don't do)... .unless he does it on purpose for attention... .I am not sure. I have seen him rage and get disregulated... .even sober... .Very mean and calculating. Very manipulative. Always lies... .when the truth would fit! Major cheater as well... .Yet comes off like the sweetest, kindest, smartest and very polite man to the ones he doesn't know very well.  He is quite the study!

Not all people with BPD are the same.  Many of them share cluster B traits along with the main diagnoses of BPD, so that's also something to consider.

In general though, people with BPD are not unfeeling psychos with no empathy.  The problem is they FEEL TOO MUCH, and do not possess the proper tools to regulate that emotion.  Seeing the world as a scary place with people that are all good or all bad will make you do things that aren't normal or healthy.

However they don't act this way for pleasure.  They act this way because they don't have the skills to cope with their extreme emotions, and they'll do anything to avoid self anhilation or abandonment.

It's very complex and took me about a month to understand.

I can say, with certainty, that there is something in my BPDw that enjoys hurting people or seeing people hurt. Sometimes after/during verbally hurting, she gets this wry smile on her face. I know she is enjoying it. When she sees me in discomfort, she smiles. Her reaction isn't empathetic to my pain. Internally, she is enjoying it on some level. Her facial patterns don't represent access to appropriate empathy centers in the brain. Her face turns up. When you are feeling someone's pain, your face will turn down. It will respond to the pain. Your lips will turn down, your eyes will soften, your brow will sink or furrow. This is the opposite. She will smirk. Trying to hide a smile. Accompanied by this, her cheeks will tighten. Her chin will lift somewhat. Her eyes will widen as if the reaction in her brain is reacting to a pleasure center. Another way this manifests, is her head will move to the side as if to look at you through the corners of her eyes. There will be a little smile/smirk associated with this movement. I associated it with her internally acknowledging the reaction to hurting me is wrong, will try to hide it slightly but cant help to view the pain she is causing because she is enjoying it.

I'm fairly observant and being associated with a high functioning, very manipulative pwBPD. I had been dedicated to making it work so I studied what I could do to react to her in a more positive way and communicate in such a way that would dysregulate her less.

No, BPD is very different from anti-social personality disorder. There can be a comorbidity though.

More references here:

www.universitypsychiatry.com/clientuploads/picp/10_PICPs.pdf (borderline)

www.universitypsychiatry.com/clientuploads/picp/11_PICPs.pdf (antisocial)

im not saying they are sociopaths etc. they do however exhibit traits of these disorders.

Have you seen this article?

"My Definition of Love. I have Borderline Personality Disorder."

https://bpdfamily.com/content/my-definition-love-i-have-borderline-personality-disorder