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Was he throwing down the gauntlet?

Twice calls dropped on me today, the first  after he had called me and I told him what I was doing and the second after I asked him what was keeping him from communion since we were no longer in a sexual relationship. To me it felt like he hung up on me so I put my phone in do not disturb mode . What does the board think?

It looks like he has not called me back as I saw no voice mail from him as I was closing out my apps so I'm leaning to the side of he hung up on me.

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He sent me these texts.


I am tired of his nonsense . This was my response.


He came back with a hurtful jab:


So I said
just in case he didn't understand me.

If this is an opportunity for me to stand up for myself please let me know how .

It continued . He said this
and I replied with


I am really not in the mood for him today.

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He left me a message and he sounded annoyed. I really don't want to deal with him right now.

That sounds like a provocative statement to me. I'm sure it somehow flowed from your conversation. I don't think you chose to go LOOKING for a fight by saying this.

However, let me ask you--can you see how it would be provocative to him?

And what do you suspect made it somehow feel 'right' or 'natural' to say that?

You both sound a bit on edge with one another.

Stand up for yourself in regards to what?

What were you looking for from him that you did nit get?

Its Valentine's Day and he said some really sappy stuff to me as if it's somehow supposed to mean something to me:
I responded with
and he said
Its Valentine's Day, and the man who proposed marriage to me almost 4 years ago is still married to someone else. Meanwhile other girls my daughter's age have functional stepfathers, who are married to their mothers, not someone else.

I don't feel anything for my partner right now, least of all love.

Somebody at church asked me if he was coming out here yet, this person knows he is still married.

I'm tired of being sympathetic and empathetic to my partner.

I'm just burnt out on the whole relationship. That about sums it up. I wish there was someone else I wanted to date as I would be out of my relationship faster then a speeding bullet but there's no one else. This is miserable.

This is what he responded with
GK suggested in my last post I learn how to stand up to my partner so I'm asking if this is an opportunity for me to stand up to him.

I'm looking for my partner to stand up and be a man and take communion again.

I don't know what his problem is. He proposed marriage to me yet he won't even go to communion. I'm sick of it.

He said this
So he admits it.

I have nothing to say to him.

He carried on an adulterous relationship with me for 3 years before I finally caught on.

I am not happy with him right now.

He had the audacity to wish me happy valentines day even though his divorce hasn't been filed yet. I don't care if its his wife fault. He should have never put me in this position in the first place. Yes, I'm back to feeling resentment. I wish I were rid of him. I'm very conflicted today.

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He also said this:
I did not respond.

He is blaming me for his bad feeling.

I am not going to pick it up.

I read that people with borderline play the blame and shame game.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/stop-walking-eggshells/201111/borderlines-and-narcissists-both-blame-storm  (https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/stop-walking-eggshells/201111/borderlines-and-narcissists-both-blame-storm)

I'm not interested.

Oh, I also found this on Facebook
I am definitely not going to get involved with that. He can stew in his own juices as far as I am concerned. I'm not jumping into the soup.

When I hear 'Stand up for yourself' to me it implies standing up for your values via enforcing boundaries.

What value is being challenged?

That doesn't seem like good boundaries to me. Isn't it his choice whether he takes communion or not?

I can understand why you care about it. But it isn't your choice, and not your place to try to make it for him. Just like his progress on his divorce--it matters to you, but is his choice, and you have very little influence even... .and when you try to get involved, it starts a fight.

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What I was talking about on the other thread was standing up for what you believe and what you want. For yourself, not what you want him to do.

The first example that came to mind was that sometimes you get really irritated at him, and don't want to contact him. Here's how I would see standing up for yourself in that situation.

If you don't feel like calling him, don't call him. Honor your own feelings. Simple as that! *

*Except if you have a previously scheduled call coming up and you don't feel like that either. In that case, either not answering, or not calling at that time seems rude and provocative. In that case I'd give him a short text at or just before the scheduled time indicating that you won't make the call. Make it about how YOU are feeling, not about him. ("I don't feel up to a facetime now" NOT "I don't want to facetime because you aren't taking communion" You don't need much detail here--if you wanted to give him lots of details about how you were feeling, you would want to be in contact with him!

Try to do this from a point of view of protecting yourself (and your relationship with him) from what you would say if you did talk, and what you would hear when you said something ugly and he dysregulated next. ... .not to punish him for his bad behavior. (This is subtle. When he behaves badly, you do feel bad and have things you need to protect yourself from... .it is easy to fall on the wrong side of this)

If he calls you, you might text back "Sorry, I'm not up to a phone call now."

NOTE... .even if you aren't doing this with the idea of punishing him... .he is likely to accuse you of something like that. If it is not valid, don't JADE about it. Actually even if it is valid, don't JADE :P

Let's see, my valentine is still married to someone else and is not receiving communion. My values state that I am involved with someone who is also a member of my religion. My partner and I aren't sexually involved anymore so I don't understand what his problem is. His receiving communion would be a way to bring a spiritual unity into our relationship that isn't there now.

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Like i said to sunfl0wer if he were to take communion it would bring a spiritual unity into our relationship  that is lacking now. He grew up in the religion I converted  to yet he left the church way before he met me. His current marriage is not and was not a religious one, yet he wants to have a religious marriage with me and he's not receiving communion yet? It sounds like nonsense to me.


Oh we're not face timing anymore.

Today I had to eat lunch with my daughter's friend and her stepdad who is my age and it really hurt. I want a man like that in my life, a straight ahead man who is married to me and is helping me raise my daughter like she's his own, not the nonsense I am dealing with now. It hurts, bad.


I suppose I do feel like punishing him for keeping me on hold for almost 4 years and for thinking he's entitled to love from me. If I didn't know any better I'd accuse of him being narcissistic, but then I'd be confusing him with my ex, which he also accuses me of.

I'm just not happy with him today.

Today I don't want to be in this relationship, however my alternative is being single and frankly that doesn't look any better then this messed up relationship. I wish a straight ahead available man would come into my life. I thought this guy was the one. He's not. He thinks I'm the one. I don't.

Unicorn, once again, you are communicating to him about side issues (whether he wishes you happy V-Day) rather than about the core issue.

Perhaps "I'm sorry, that was a nice sentiment, one I would ordinarily really love to hear.  But I'm struggling with your unavailability to really be with me in a real relationship due to your marital status. Rough day here on that account."

Do you see that that comes from the same place but is clear, not passive aggressive, not confusing?

It sounds like you are asking  yourself some fundamental questions about what you want, which is great.  It also sounds like you are enduring some renewed frustration because of his ongoing failure to keep his word to you about the divorce, which is completely understandable (your feelings, that is).

I don't know where you got the idea I was communicating to him about how I was feeling. I was communicating to the board about how I was feeling. I didn't say a word to him about how I was feeling. Can you please show me what it is I said that led you to believe I was actually saying those things to him as opposed to the board?




At this point the delay is his wife's fault, but that doesn't change things for me emotionally. If he wasn't married I wouldn't be in this position in the first place. He actually called me back after his phone died and we had a pleasant conversation so I managed to circumvent picking up the gauntlet by posting here instead!

So it sounds like your values are:

That your SO should receive communion?  Or be unmarried?

What boundary can you set around this?

We cannot control the actions of others, all we can do is be true to our values, live them.

What would honoring your values look like?

I am glad you ended up having a pleasant conversation with him. Perhaps it is best to leave it at that, at least for the rest of today.


I understand your frustration. Yet I also think looking at things like this might give too much power to the other person. Whether he is married or not, you do not have to be in this position if you do not want to. If you choose to extricate yourself from this situation, you also wouldn't be in this position. What I'm trying to say is, focusing on your own role and the choices you can make, is more empowering than focusing on the behavior of others (i.e. the delay caused by his wife, him still being married). Regardless of what he does or doesn't do, regardless of what his wife does or doesn't do, you always have a choice and the power to extricate yourself from this situation. You do not have to be in this position of waiting for certain things to happen that you ultimately have no control over, if you do not want to. You cannot control what he and his wife do, but you can control what you do yourself. How does this sound to you?

sunfl0wer, I can not control either of those things but I could tell my SO I would like it if he would receive communion. What do you think about that?

This sounds good and I am not sure what to say in response. I would like to be able to walk away from my relationship however I am not. Today somebody at church asked me if he was coming out here yet. This was a person who did not know he was married, and whom I told he was married. I kind of felt encouraged by the fact that she still accepted my partner. I kind of feel like if I can keep my distance from my partner until he gets divorced then things are going to be ok. Does this sound off?

Honestly, I much prefer the advice of the Blue Parrot and am grateful to see his reply as he communicates on the boards more thoughtfully and caring and wise than I.  It is a good example for myself to learn from.


Sage advice from Blue Parrot:

Yes I am not picking at the valentine's day thing.

My relationship is shameful to me.

I would like to be able to feel good about it.

I know that I am being very patient with my partner.

If I had somebody else to date I would but I don't.

Being able to feel good about my relationship and my partner are very important values to me.

I would really recommend letting him sort out his communion issues, without questions or nudging from you.

Focusing your time and energy on whether or not you take communion or perhaps your daughter, now that sounds like time well spent to me.

FF

I have not asked him about or nudged him about communion, and I won't after reading your post. My daughter and I receive every time we go to church, nothing to talk about there.

|iiii Good for you.

I think the really frustrating thing about this kind of business is that he has very poor boundaries, and seems to fairly consistently do/say things that encourage you to get into this kind of fight / control battle with him over stuff like this. (Or his divorce.)

THIS


You can't change him.

You can't change his marital status. (#1 thing you find most shameful about the r/s if I am reading correctly.)

You tried changing the relationship to one which is smaller, more distant as a result, and from what I've seen of your posts, this hasn't given you much more peace about the situation. (I also think he has resisted such efforts mightily, trying to pull you back in emotionally, so you may not have achieved the distance you were hoping for.)

You don't want to change your values. (And I'm not suggesting you do so.)

As I see it, that leaves you with a very hard choice.

Can you list or name exactly what you find shameful and is preventing you from feeling good about the relationship?

(I suspect I can guess, but do not want to put words in your mouth)


What choices would you be faced with?  What would taking control of those things look like?  Do you find yourself facing obstacles within you in regards to taking control?

I like what Kwamina expressed:
(I am not trying to repeat what you already have discussed, it just seems like your struggle remains and you are still confronted with the same difficult issues.)

Unicorn2014,

You have heard my advice to step back to gain space and perspective on issues before.  I sort of took my own advice and stepped back from posting in your threads as much.  I was concerned that I was clouding the issue, vice helping (which was my intent).

In these complex and dysfunctional relationship dynamics it can be very easy to focus on details that don't matter or details that make a situation worse.

I'm going to toss out an idea for you, Grey Kitty and others to evaluate and comment on.  Perhaps it will be helpful.

Before I put out my idea, Unicorn2014, I realize that the status of his marriage is a core issue for you.  I'm not suggesting otherwise.  I am suggesting that looking at it in a new light just might provide a pathway to something healthier for you.

What if we look at the divorce not as the "problem" but as a tool that he uses in a dysfunctional way to keep Unicorn2014 engaged/interested/involved in a r/s that she clearly has had issues with for a long time?

Much of the advice and lessons we learn on bpdfamily involve first learning to identify "tools" that pwBPD traits use to keep "nons" off balance and "under their control" in a r/s and then finding healthy ways that the nons can negate the power of those tools and live a healthy/full life regardless of the choices that their partner makes.

Does this help?  I'll hush for now and let others comment for a while.

FF

In three different posts on this thread you wrote:

"I wish there was someone else I wanted to date as I would be out of my relationship faster then a speeding bullet but there's no one else."

"Today I don't want to be in this relationship, however my alternative is being single and frankly that doesn't look any better then this messed up relationship."

"If I had somebody else to date I would but I don't."

Maybe it's worth examining your reluctance to be single and the assumptions you are making surrounding that alternative.  I know in my own case my fear of being alone is a symptom of my overall codependency that I am trying to outgrow and singlehood is an idea that I am trying to get more comfortable with.

I was separated & divorced  for 7 years before I met my partner so that's not an issue.

In terms of other issues that he has unhealthy boundaries with there are his moods and his work. I'm on my phone right now so I'll respond in more detail when I get on my computer however they include things like him lying about not being ok when I'm ask him if he's ok and my theory that he maintains a certain level of mental illness so that he can write music.

In terms of the points formflier brought up I will think on those and get back to them.

In terms of what is shameful about the relationship, it's not just his marital status, it's the fact it's long distance and it's emotionally abusive. Other then my ex, it's the only difficult relationship with another adult I have in my life. A simple thing such as asking my partner not to be so abrasive with me in text turns into a problem. When I don't talk to him until the afternoon he accuses me of having a bad day. He just hung up on me because asked him to not speak so harshly to me.

I'm trying to find the strength within myself to end it because I know there'll be no going back .

After rereading those posts I have to say the biggest issue today is how he talks to me. He puts me down, he belittles me, he withholds information, he denies he's doing that. Today I have an opportunity to enforce my do not disturb rule after being hung up on and it's only 2 in the afternoon. I tried to tell him the way he was talking to me in text wasn't working for me and then he hung up on me. I put my phone in do not disturb mode. He called me back. We have a scheduled talk at 8pm. I don't know what to say to him when he's acting like this. I don't want to deal with more of his defensiveness. I have a right to say how I want to be treated. No other adult  except my ex treats me the way my partner does.

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He claims his phone died. The same thing happened the other day, we were in the middle of a heated conversation and it ended. He claimed his phone died.

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Those are the offensive texts he sent to me.

I told him I didn't like how he talked to me, that nobody else in my life talked to me like that, and if he wanted to continue to be in a relationship with me he was going to have to change how he talked to me. Then he hung up on me for real.

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What does the board think?

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I know I can't control how he talks to me so I probably need some guidance here in terms of determining my values around how I am talked to and how I protect myself from what I consider to be emotional abuse.

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He also said this to me.

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He thinks he's entitled to be loved by me and entitled to a relationship with me. I wasn't having a bad day. He was making things up about me. Then after he hangs up on me he says this:


He knows being called emotionally unstable by him is a deal breaker for me.

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This is the kind of stuff that makes me seriously consider leaving the relationship.

I got further grief from him:


He's being really hurtful right now.

This is what is the deal breaker for me even more then the marriage and the distance.

This I can not and will not tolerate.

I need help walking away from it.

He just sent this
Ok, at 12:30  he said he  would call me in an hour, I said I had to call my dad back first so that would be perfect timing, then I said I would call him after I called my dad, then he said he would talk to me at 8pm. That's when the trouble started. Then his phone died, then when I told him the way he spoke to me in text wasn't working for me he hung up on me and now this.

All this drama over a simple phone call.

Its true, I hadn't told him I love him yet today because I'm not sure if I do.

My dad called me today to talk to me about my grandmother's will and it reminded me of my partner.

I don't know what makes my partner so special that I've been waiting on him for 3.5 years to get a divorce.

I don't have anything to say to him.

He thinks he can just talk to me that way and I would be happy to pick up the phone and talk to him.

No other adult other then my ex husband  puts me down like that.

I have no reason at all to call him right now.

Then he called me and insisted we had a problem we needed to solve. I told him the only problem we had is I told him I'd call him after I called my father and his reply was to tell me hed talk to me at 8pm. He hung up on me a 2nd time and send me further hurtful texts.


He is out of control today and he's moralizing at me as if there's something wrong with me. It's not endearing, it's not inspiring and it's not encouraging. It's just serving to push me further away. 

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He called me a third time!

This is a real opportunity to do something constructive and say when either one of us hangs up on the other ... .I don't know how to say the rest compassionately.

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He hung up on me twice in the space of 90 minutes.

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He called me again and when I didn't answer because I was in the bathroom he sent this.


I have no idea what he thinks he's going to accomplish by continuing to put me down and belittle me. All he's doing is pushing me further away. Only a fool would respond to that. When he's made a mess and feels embarrassed he always falls back on temperament however since he's an INTJ and I'm an INFJ I think he's got us confused. I'm the one who doesn't like conflict. That's why I'm posting here instead of arguing with him.

I didn't respond to his text so he sent me this.


I think it would be safe to say that he is dysregulated and I have no idea why and I know it has nothing to do with me.

Only an idiot would respond to that text or pick up the phone and call him.

I have no idea what to do here so I'm doing nothing for now.

I found Skip's post on my last thread covering this topic:
I'm kind of afraid to say that to my partner right now because I know it will set him off.

I will see if I can put it in my own words. He hung up on me twice today, plus the phone died once. I did not hang up on him at all today.

The things that different about today is we didn't have a conversation before he hung up on me. He's obviously very emotional today, and it has nothing to do with me.

He called me again to tell me he'd be recording and I was able to tell him that he's been very emotional today, he hung up on me twice, and I think it would be a good idea to give each other space for the rest of the day and since he didn't want to call me at 8pm we could talk tomorrow morning.

He said "I see, have a nice evening" and hung up on me.

Maybe that's a win? (keeping my fingers crossed and hoping)

This gets back to what GK was talking about, poor boundaries on his part. I think he keeps a certain amount of dis-ease in his life so he can write music because he told me if he was "cured" he would have no reason to write music.

The thing is do I want a partner like that?

Not really.

It looks glamorous on paper but the real thing is a piece of work!  my-issues

Then he called me back to tell me he would not be talking to me tomorrow and hung up no me again. I tried to follow Skip's advice and my partner threw it back in my face as I knew he would.

This doesn't feel like a win.

He's really giving me an opportunity to end the relationship.

I tried to be perfectly reasonable and say lets talk at 8 and he said no. Then I said lets talk tomorrow and he said no. He's acting like a teenager, its either his way or the highway. That hurt. I don't want to be in a relationship with an adult who acts like a teenager.

I'm not really sure what to do here. He just told me if I call him tomorrow he won't be answering the phone, so he essentially has now taken the relationship hostage.

I am tired of this and I don't know what to do.

He basically just told me he would be giving me the silent treatment for an indefinite amount of time and the silent treatment is a deal breaker for me.

I don't know what to do here.

Should I tell him what he is doing is the silent treatment and that is a deal breaker for me?

"What does the board think?"

I think that he treats you badly (in a bunch of ways you identified above).

I think that when he does, you get very emotional, very hurt by his behavior, and tend to be reactive.


I think that for this relationship to become healthy, it is up to you to build your own capacity to listen* to his attacks, deceptions, and slights, knowing that these are the best coping tools he has, and that he will try to use them on you as long as you make that in any way possible... .

... .and choose to respond in an assertive way which protect yourself (as much as is needed), without punishing him.

... .and be true to yourself and believe in yourself when he accuses you of punishing him or holding the relationship hostage, even when you are not.


(Note... .I had computer issues, and this was written a few hours and a few responses ago... .I think it mostly still applies anyway)

Edit: * By "listen" I don't mean allow him to aim a diatribe at you... .I mean hear at least the beginning of one, and respond appropriately, however many times this happens.

Thanks grey kitty, after all that he went back to the original plan which was call me at 8pm.

Today i didn't react to him at all.

I told him that I wasn't not being peaceful and I didn't want to hear about that.

I appreciate your support. I can't leave until I'm ready to leave and today is not the day.

I was going to let him not talk to me indefinitely but then he called me back, maybe because of the fact I didn't react.

He called me and at 4:20pm, really,  I was finally able to say for the first time today I love you too.

I really think my love is a drug for him, and the timing of me saying that underscores my point.

Is it possible that I  can stop being a drug for him, or how can I make my love no longer be a drug for him?

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More: this is the text he sent me before he called me the final time which I didn't read until now.


His accusations against me are untrue.

I did nothing to start drama today.

I'm not stressed out either, I'm quite peaceful because my daughter has gone to see my brother and I get the day off!

I also found this in my Facebook messenger :
My partner is clearly off his rocker today and it has nothing to do with me even though he's putting it all on me . He's not capable of providing a supportive relationship due to his marital and geographical status. He's full of nonsense .

He is winding you up. Very effectively. You have about 20 things you are wanting to bust out and tell him.

Unicorn, it's spatting back and forth. You are letting yourself get sucked into it and reacting to him. And darn, reading his text, I can see why.

One thing that caught my eye in a prior post another poster made, is these are tools your partner is pulling out to use on you. Slow down a bit and ponder it. Can you come up with a list of his tools? Are you able to recognize them well enough that when he pulls a tool from his tool box to try and control you, can you SEE what the tool he is using?

All of us have arsenals of tools. Good ones, bad ones... effective, ineffective.

What I see predominantly is when you try to take a step back, and not engage, he starts tweaking you with one of his "tools" and it's like a red cape to a bull. BAM you are in there, trying to tell him to knock it off and respect your boundaries.

He is going to escalate, he is going to pester you, he is going to pick at you and toss "assumptions" at you that are intended to get you to say oh not that is not right! to him. And he's gotcha. Sucking you in again. More conflict, more upset, more contempt.

He's walking right through your boundaries. He knows what your boundaries are. You already told him. Just enforce them. I know it's really hard, and he is bruising your sense of fair play and your feelings of being unjustly treated. And in you go to protect that part of who you are. You can protect that part of you. You don't have to tell him why you didn't answer after he hung up on you, if you say you are done talking for the day, the 8PM chat is gone for that day.

You are entitled to shut the door any time you want and get some peace and quiet as you need it. Most I would tell the guy is maybe a text to the effect of you are out for the day and will be in touch tomorrow. Attempt contact the next day. If he ignores you or does a disappearing act, let him. The way he is, he's not going to be out of touch for very long.

Thanks Daniell85 that was really helpful. We had an agreement I would call him after my meeting, I did, he didn't answer, I left a message, he hasn't called me. He says he would call me at 8:15, he didn't, didn't text either.

Today I messed up, tomorrow I have another chance to set things right.

Hi unicorn,

Whether he has good or poor boundaries, I think what is most important here are your own boundaries and that you enforce/defend your boundaries. If your value is that people should be treated respectfully, certain elements of his behavior seem out of line with your values. His general harsh language (not just what you've shared in his thread) and his repeated hanging up on you isn't respectful behavior.

I see certain patterns here, he says or does 'X' in the hope of you saying or doing 'Y'. You cannot prevent his 'X' behavior, but what you can do is change your 'Y' response. A lot of what's going on here is probably automatic responses. You are used to responding to him in a certain way when he says or does 'X' and he knows that too.

In a way you might feel obliged or pressured to take his calls or respond to his texts, however not responding is actually also a very powerful response. It signals that you're not playing the 'X --> Y' game anymore and won't accept disrespectful behavior. There are various way to communicate boundaries, you can do it verbally but also through your actions. Not responding sends a very clear signal and is a very solid tactic to help break this cycle of conflict.

Your partner knows that this marriage/divorce situation is highly problematic and that he plays a significant part in this. Instead of addresssing and acknowledging this, he seems to be projecting all his negativity and inner turmoil onto you. He very well might be dysregulated, but even if he's not, it's probably best not to respond to any false accusations because odds are that will turn into a circular argument. Keeping J.A.D.E. in mind is very important here. Don't Justify, Argue, Defend or Explain. Most often it is better not to respond at all and if you feel a response is necessary, just keep it B.I.F.F.: Brief, Informative, Friendly (well at least not unfriendly  ) and Firm.

Take care

Thank you Kwamina, I messed up today but I'm going to try to do better tomorrow. He did end up calling me at 8:45pm and we had a pleasant enough conversation.

I think one of the hardest things for me is I am an adult child of a disordered mother, who claimed I was very disrespectful to her so its almost as if I feel as if I don't have a right to demand that people be respectful to me.

This is where my coping issues and conflicted issues dovetail.

Now that I have a clear understanding that I am not obligated to reply when he speaks to me harshly whether in text or on the phone, I am going to try even harder not to pick it up.

I actually follow the B.I.F.F. response on Facebook and I appreciate that reminder. My partner is not the only difficult person in my life, actually every member of my family of origin is difficult in addition to my ex and even my daughter.

I first learned the JADE concept in Al-Anon when I was starting to deal with my ex's drug problem.

My partner is much more aggressive then my ex, and in some ways that's a good thing because it means he's much more highly motivated, however he's also more challenging then my ex because he's much more in my face.

We will see what kind of day we have tomorrow.

Thanks for your post!

You certainly do not like when your partner is not respectful of you, understandable.

Do you feel you are being respectful to you when you engage with him after feeling provoked?

You need to be sure you are being respectful to you first... .the rest will follow.  You do not need to really ask or demand it from others.  It starts with respect of self... .and others have no choice but to listen.

Thanks sunfl0wer , you are right. He texted me to tell me his misses me. I might miss him if he wasn't so harsh.

Hi unicorn2014,

Is this the life you want to live? Posting on a forum and being upset by his continuously bad behavior?

I mean, years go by pretty quick. What if, in three years, you're still doing this dance. You might be upset that you're giving away your time to this.

May I ask for more details about how you felt on this, and how it went? I'm kinda wondering how low you are setting the bar for him.

If simply not getting emotional abuse, passive aggressive crap, and active deception from him is "pleasant enough," perhaps you have some real re-thinking to do about this. Your description of the day's texting and negotiations about calling were still a mess... .not the kind of stuff I'd want to put up with.


I recognize how far you have to go here. You were raised to accept all sorts of bad behavior, and it was programmed into you very well.

In this way, I was blessed--My parents didn't raise me with everything I wanted or needed, but I was encouraged to develop healthy boundaries, and not subjected to verbal/emotional abuse. Still my marriage had little bits of that that grew over decades until I was starting to accept it as normal and be kinda OK with it--Still, it was much easier for me to turn things around, since deep inside me I not only knew it wasn't right, but knew with something better felt like.

---

Right now, the biggest thing I see you stumbling on is when your partner accuses you of being mean/abusive/manipulative/unreasonable/uncaring/etc/etc/etc.

From what I've seen these range from total fabrication/projection, to perhaps having a kernel of truth in them.

I see you sounding very defensive about them, even here on these forums where you are supported.

I see you worrying about his likelihood of doubling down on it should you enforce a boundary.

Most importantly, I see you doubting yourself... .wondering if what he accuses you of thinking, intending to do to him is actually true or not.

And in this area, you might want to consider his position to be like the joke "Q: How can you tell if a cowboy is lying? A: His lips are moving." He really is THAT unreliable when it comes to advising you on how to make a relationship work better, or what you are doing wrong in it right now.

Thank you grey kitty, when I say pleasant enough I mean in light of the day's shenanigans. It's like he gets to treat me how he wants and he still gets what he wants in the end. There was nothing wrong with the evenings conversation itself.

When I was referring to my FOO I meant I was trained to accept the blame for everything.

If I tell my partner today I'm not happy about what happened yesterday , I'll get blamed for it.

If I say I'm still thinking about what happened yesterday, I'll get blamed for it.

I haven't read my partners text yet this morning nor listened to his voicemail .

The best thing I could do is nothing at all or perhaps say something like I'm processing what happened yesterday and I'm not ready to talk yet but then he'll get all defensive or cold.

It's really a no win situation for me.

I find it remarkable that he can just carry on like nothing happened, then again if he's holding me responsible, of course he can.

I will think about what you are saying about the cowboy joke.

I don't really want to share my life with someone who treats me that way. If I say that to him I have to be ready to deal with the consequences because I know I can't change him. I know if I'm going to try to stand up for myself in this relationship it's going to take a lot of strength on my end.

Perhaps the board could help me think of a way to communicate to him that I need some space after what happened yesterday , knowing he's going to get nasty if I say that.

Lonely child unfortunately my partner is not the only disordered person in my life, and if I decide to leave, I'll be posting on the leaving board. None of my relationships have been easy: parents, ex, child, partner. I see people posting here years after they've left their BPD partner . The boards or posting on them aren't the problem.

With my boyfriend, if I tell him why I am doing something like taking space, for example... .if I phrase it as I am taking space because I don't like how he acted, he takes that as blaming and accusation. So he attacks me "back". He says exactly that: back.

Maybe what you are running into is that your nature is to be direct and to the point. In many areas of life that is a quality that is admired. BPD is not an area where the BPD person is going to respect that. BPD will take it as an attack.

What happens if you just take the space and wait for him to inquire? Keep it to text, saying simply, I am tired out and taking a day to rest up, I will touch base with you tomorrow."

Not my point what could have been wrong during the conversation.

My point was that you weren't excitedly writing about how delightful it was to talk to him, how sweet he was, the wonderful support he gave you for the troubles you had in your day, etc., etc.

That is what struck me.

I just had a friend talking about her personal struggle after growing up in an amazingly abusive FOO. That she came to find neglect as enjoyable and preferable to anything she got as a child. And that even now, decades later, she sees neglect in an intimate relationship as "safe". And she's aware of how messed up that is, but having trouble changing it!

Thank you for your reply Daniell85.

The ironic thing is my SO prides himself on being direct.

This morning's text didn't include an I love you.

Yesterday his complaint was that I hadn't said I love you once to him, and I finally said "I love you too" at 4:20pm hence my inquiry as to how I could not be a drug for him.

Last night at 9:44pm/12:44am in text he said he missed me, I did not say I miss you too this morning because I don't.

He also said that on Facebook messenger at 10:18pm/1:18am. I didn't read or reply to that because I don't feel the same. In fact my question is, why is he up at 1 in the morning? For him that is his normal bedtime. Then he texted me this morning at 4:56am/7:56am "Hello Sugar Boo Good Morning I hope you slept well". He's playing a game with me to see if I react to his lack of "I love you" as I used to react to that. Not anymore. I don't care anymore if he says "I love you" or not. I've matured.

There's a small part of me that wonders what he's doing but I'm not going to pick it up. We still share calendars and it looks like his is  empty but I'm not going to inquire about that either.

Today is the day that either his wife complies with the request for the financial affidavit or his lawyer files a motion to comply. Of course I'm curious about what went down but I'm not going to ask him until he contacts me. I replied to his good morning text with Hello dear and good morning. He has not read it yet.

I suppose I do have a resentment that he can get away with how he treated me yesterday.

Grey Kitty I appreciate your concern. What I was trying to say is it didn't matter what kind of support he expressed, what he did earlier in the day negated that all. Currently he's trying to draw a parallel between what's going on in my family (my dad is going to contest my grandmother's will on behalf of my brother and I, its his idea) and what went on in his family. He always like to draw parallels between his experience and my experience. I used to find that endearing but now I'm not so touched anymore.

I think I do have a resentment about how he treated me yesterday and I don't know what to do about that. I can't address him about it because he will blame me or he will shame me for having a resentment saying he doesn't have resentments. This man claims to be immune to resentments, which allows him to feel morally superior to the rest of the human race. I definitely find that unattractive.

Furthermore the troubles I had in my day were caused by him, and him alone. As I said the rest of my day went fine, save for that phone call from my dad to tell me about my grandmother's will, and even that went fine in the end.

If I had a way to stand up to my partner, and assert myself, and state my needs, I'm sure I'd feel better about the relationship. Problem is every time I do that I either get shot down or blamed for the problem.

I find it interesting that he left me a message this morning at 6:51/9:51am telling me how much he missed me last night and how much he loved me. At this point I don't really care how he feels, how he treated me yesterday negates that all. I don't know how to tell him that either because if I tell him I don't care he gets upset too. Its really a lose lose situation for me and I don't know what to do about it.

The only thing I can say is I let the situation get worse by picking up the phone again after he hung up on me the first time. So I suppose by saying that I take my power back.

What do you think?

If that was true, if you felt that badly about how he had treated you earlier in the day, why even talk to him? Assertive would be taking space from somebody when you don't want to be around them.


Your resentment is for you to deal with, not him to deal with. This is true in any relationship!

The issues that brought up the resentment *might* be worth discussing, if you could have a healthy discussion about them with him. (You make a pretty compelling case that you cannot here.)


It is your job to stand up for yourself in a way that works, whether he tries to cooperate, or whether he tries not to cooperate.

You can protect yourself this way, no matter what he wants to do.

OTOH, you cannot force him to meet any of your needs. That he has to do willingly, and if he is unwilling, you have to accept that. You may find others who can meet your needs in at least some cases, and when in a r/s with a pwBPD, there will be many of those.


|iiii

From your description, he plays a bunch of manipulative games with you, this being one of them. The more you are able to avoid being reactive when he does it, the better everything will go, for this relationship, and for yourself in when dealing with other people too.

Great work on this one!

Ironically enough my daughter may have solved that problem for me: she hung up on me twice today and when I told my partner that he said he was going to have to stop doing that to me since he is helping me deal with her behavior. Perhaps that is enough. I realized that I was being more lenient with my daughter then I was with my partner and the stakes are even higher with my daughter as I have real power over her as opposed to just the willingness to be in a relationship with my partner.

It is very interesting that yesterday my partner was acting out and today my daughter is acting out.

So now I have two problems: what to do when my partner hangs up on me and what to do when my daughter hangs up on me, which is for the parenting board.

In both cases, realize that you are teaching them both how to respect you as a person.  Maybe another way of looking at it is that you are teaching them how you think of yourself as a person.

So, if you treat yourself with respect, your actions and boundaries should insist that others do as well.

I also think that this shows the importance of using high standards when "picking" someone to help raise your child. 

I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around how someone with no phone etiquette or respect for you is going to help you teach your daughter how to be respectful to you on the phone.

How is this going to play out?

FF

After I told my partner my daughter hung up on me twice he realized he could never do that again, so let's see if that actually plays out. Its possible that him seeing how another person affects me has more of an impact then me telling him how he affects me. This happened before, when my former sponsor dumped me because she couldn't deal with me.

My partner actually got my daughter to call me back . Although she doesn't like being told what to do by him she also realizes that he's not telling her what to do , he's backing up what I'm telling her what to do.

He's a lot more functional then her father, or any other member of my family. My daughter is very aggressive and so is my partner so in that way they are a perfect match, much like I read about on the staying board on how people think their partners are perfect for them. I think I've said this before, temperamentally speaking my partner and my daughter are much suited for each other then she and I or she and him.

I agree with you that I am teaching both of them how to treat me. I think its funny that the day after my partner hung up on me my daughter hangs up on me. Obviously there is a lesson in there for me to learn that has nothing to do with either of them. My ex husband has also hung up on me too.

I do have very high standards, and nobody else was able to meet them before I met my partner. I was single for 7 years before I met my partner. My partner is very intelligent; if I can deal with his borderline behavior.

What is happening in the conversation before people hang up on you?

If you were to ask youe exH, D, and SO, what would they say the reason they hung up is?

If people are trying to find a way to escape conversing with you... .that is something worth exploring and looking at.

So, wait, I'm confused here.

Is your partner meeting your standards?

FF

All three of them hang up on me when they can't get their way with me. They are all very stubborn people and they are used to wearing people down and when their tactics don't work on me, they hang up on me. I terminated my relationship with my ex, my daughter is my responsibility and my partner is voluntary. I am not the problem here. This all stems from my relationship with my narcissistic father, which points to my coping issues. My father is a very difficult person who is used to getting his way with people and he taught me not to give up. I once had a man who was interested in me nickname me iron side because of my iron will. Does this answer your question?

Yes, when he is not  putting me down, he does. That is why I said if I can deal with his BPD behavior then he is a very useful person in my life. If I can have the strength to stand up to him when he hangs up on me, then I can have a successful relationship with him. Now he did say that after hearing about my daughter hanging up on me twice he realized he can't do that to me again. We will see if that holds water. Like I said when he saw how my former sponsor abandoned me he was determined never to abandon me and so far he hasn't. You can teach an old dog new tricks and unfortunately other people are sometimes my partner's best teachers.

I am more wondering what their perception is.

I wonder if from their perception maybe the conversation feels too intense?  Or like they are not being heard?  Or they are hearing things they don't want to hear? Or do they feel blamed? Picked on?

It sounds like they need space from the conversation and are not expressing that in a respectful manner.  I wonder if you can help monitor and gauge the temperature of conversations and back away early FOR them, before they get overwhelmed to the point of wanting to hang up.

I know you have expressed that you are quite astute to minor emotional changes in others.  I suspect there may be clues beforehand that they are gearing for a hang up.  Knowing and understanding their reason can help you with this.

It seems a consistent issue in your relationships that people do not know when to respectfully disengage BEFORE things get that heated.  Rather, they disengage after heated or during the heat.

Think of it like a thermometer.  Someone needs to stop the conversation when it is at a level 7 intensity, before it hits level 8/ hang up intensity.  If you are the healthier more adult person, then that has to be you. (i am just making up this number scale for conversation sake)

Sunfl0wer, I've gotten quite good at predicting when my partner is going to hang up, I predicted his last hang up perfectly, same thing with my daughter. I have little contact with my ex. My daughter's home, my partner is peaceful and who knows where my ex is.

My biggest challenge will be the next time my partner hangs up on me, not answering the phone again.

Here is something you could work on... .

... .your partner would choose not to say he loved you at a time that he usually did.

... .this is a clear rejection of you.

... .you found a way not to take it personally and react when he does this.  |iiii

Can you do the same when somebody hangs up on you?

For one thing, it is not 100% certain that it is intended to hurt you. A person can end a conversation abruptly with the understanding that it is the best option. I try to put a goodbye in front of hanging up, but have done it myself.

When I know that anything I say will be hurtful and not constructive, better to hang up first! Or at least before I say more!

*mod*

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