BPDFamily.com

My 3.5 yr relationship with my ex fiancée ended abruptly and without significant warning in early November 2015.  She has informed me she had a struggle at times being anxiety ridden without control.  From perusing this site for the last 3 years I believe she may actually have several symptoms or behavioral characteristics of BPD. Fortunately these symptoms were typically mild with only the occasional significant flare-up. 

Her behavior at times seemed very typical of what many have reported on this site. She most likely would be considered a beautiful, intelligent quiet borderline.  Excluding the flare-up times I found her to be a very sweet and special women.


My question is duel in purpose.  How often do they comeback and what did you do to inspire them to comeback?  From searching the internet site I've found several similar questions with the answers turning into a sequence of events confined to only a couple of members.  I'm hoping to gain an understanding of the experiences related to a multitude of members.

Thanks to all in advance, Clockwork!   

I'm no expert trust me but I think it depends on the reasons for ending it. And on the person. I think there isn't a one size fits all approach.  I wouldn't play games. Would be honest with her and yourself.  And I'd just take it a day at a time.  In my opinion the longer it goes without an attempt at a reconciliation the lower the chances.  But again that may or may not be true in all cases.

Keeping it pretty simple: they come back if/when they want to, for their own (self-centered) reasons.

Scopikaz and MapleBob thanks for your replies.  My attempt is to get is some type of consolidated list of what was successful in getting their BPD back along with some type of percentage of success. 

At this time I really don't want to speak too much to my situation.  I'll mention the relationship ended the first week of November.  She came home and stated she did not want to get married and did not want to talk about it.  In the morning I made a loud comment about "how dare you not want to talk about it".  She immediately said "we were done again".  This time I took her up on it.

We've had no communication since except for 4 letters I wrote.  She would not answer her phone.  And communication by her has been limited to Pinterest pins where she would at times use to speak to me using sayings.  Her pinterest sayings have been to blame me for everything, followed by she thinks I'm somewhat special, followed by she does not want to pursue the relationship, the she's unsure again, followed by she's done again.  I just felt it odd as we've never spoken a word since the end of the relationship except for her to drop my stuff off and 5 minutes of words with her gf by her side.  Her kids had respect, love, and appreciation for me.  On her behalf she was great with her kids and they are themselves pretty darn good.


So my reason for getting this understanding is to determine if there is some type of pattern with BPD's coming back and what may have worked for other's to start the communication process.  Also what are the detriments of leavings things as is and just going NC.

I hope many send a short reply as I believe this info may be useful for other's on the board.

Looking forward to hearing from many-Clockwork

I'd be curious too.  I want my ex to come back. But to date she hasn't. Except on her terms. When she's sort of needed something. Or I took her to concert, musical she loves, or to Biltmore then to see her children who live 7 hours from her.  The four day weekend to biltmore then to see her children was great.  We were intimate a  few times and I hoped it might cause her to want to try r/s again. But no luck.

It doesn't seem like any amount of talking or convincing works.  Nor even doing stuff together.  If it doesn't come from them. I don't think there's anything you can do.

Hello Clockwork,

Welcome to the site, glad you found us ... .and hope in some way that you find a direction in your journey that you're walking. WE can't walk it for you, but when you stumble AND you will stumble, someone from here will pick you up, dust you off and THEN the next choice is  yours. YOU can decide to sit back down where you're at. You can decide to continue down the path that your on. OR you can choose the path to the right and see where that leads you. WE can't and won't tell you which one to choose ... .this is your journey to walk as we've all have or currently walking our own path.

I would encourage you to read the references to the top of the page as their really good for references that you're asking and then the references to the right of the page too. --------->> >>

You're in a r/s with someone who has a serious mental / behavioral illness, "Cluster B" and as most here will testify to, nothing has and NOTHING will ever make sense to you or you'll never be able to apply a logical thought process to what has or is happening in your BPD relationship.  You'll need to learn a new language of push / pull behavior, triangulation, projection, deregulation, painted black, painted white, gas lighting, validation and the list goes on if you want to make any sense of what has been a certainly turbulent r/s for you.  Learn the 3 C's of BPD, YOU didn't Cause it! YOU can't control it! YOU can't Cure it!

To MapleBobs credit, it appears when & if they come back it will certainly be on their terms, on their schedule regardless of what you or anyone else says, doesn't say, what you do or what you don't do. Their skills of manipulation are well documented and even for the most educated Ph.d's & therapist are a challenge to assist them in their illness.  Evidence suggest that they will never get be "Cured" in their mental illness. With A LOT of therapy, "BT" among others and years of it they might get to a point that they can behave within societal norms ... .but they'll have to spend a lot of time at it. In addition so will you if you are to continue with this relationship ... .someone to help guide you through the nuances of BPD, the challenges of sorting through your feelings, emotions.

Scopikaz has said the same thing ... .his BPD only came back on their terms when they seem to want something ... .whatever that "something" was. And if you've read the post here as you said, you'll notice a pattern here of similar behavior. NOW no 2 people are the same with or without BPD so what works or didn't work for one person or several doesn't mean it wouldn't work for that one person.

In the mean time you need to work on  yourself a little as we all have. Take a deep breath and step back from the situation ... .educate yourself, get the therapy for your journey, and work on yourself. It's been over a year since she broke up ... .I truly hope you haven't put your life on hold during all this time. Get out with a friend ... .go get a beer & a burger, a salad and a glass of water, go to a movie, call up an old friend you lost contact with and catch up. All of this is only part of working on yourself ... .I would hate to think that you've passed up an opportunity that you weren't aware of to date a really good person in the last year given the state of your emotions or feelings or thinking. Once you find yourself ... .the rest will come. Find yourself again ... .nothing BUT good can come from this! 

Come back as often as you need to or want too for guidance, bounce some ideas off of others, and write more ... .everything here is anonymous ... .but tell us what you're comfortable with. You'll find no one here will pass judgement or think lesser of you because we've all been where you are ... .

J

I guess to actually answer your question: my most recent uBPDex and I broke up and got back together a few times. The breakups were very very brief, just a matter of days. The pattern was: she throws a huge fit out of nowhere about something she hasn't brought up before and decides to break up with me > I'm shocked and scramble to address the issue and be validating and offer explanations/solutions to prevent the breakup > within a couple of days she's less dysregulated about it > she apologizes for freaking out on me, minimizes the issue that was worth breaking up over a few days earlier > we get back together and things stabilize and issues get swept under the rug (but with resentment and distrust building) until she obsesses over the next thing that she has decided is a big issue. Until this last time, when we spent almost a year in step two of that process.

So, in short, I "got her back" temporarily a few times by throwing myself under the bus for the relationship and "managing" her anxiety. Not healthy, and I won't do that again, even given the opportunity.

I think on questions like these it is important to take BPD off the table. It isn't that relevant. When a couple breaks up, sometimes one realizes it was a mistake, or maybe enough time passes and they miss that connection. I mean, there are many reasons and motives why people break up and get back together. There are hundreds of ways that this occurs and there isn't a magic formula on getting on someone back.

What I think is important here is when someone tries to get back together. Was there abuse before? Did the other person make you feel worse about yourself? Normally a person wouldn't re-enter a relationship that was abusive. At least not any healthy person. So I think we need to take care with the question, why is it important to know if a pwBPD will come back? Is it something we can deam is a good thing?

JQ,

Thanks for your welcoming, sincere and insightful thoughts, guidance, and wisdom.  I agree I am on a journey.  Where that road leads is what makes it so frustrating.  I went from her telling me in October "she loves me more than I know".  To buying me a $2.00 cake on my birthday and no present a few weeks later. This all started in September after she had a girls night out.  I came over early to surprise her the morning after the outing and she accused me of checking up on her.  Before this we really never had anything really severe impacting our relationship.  90% of the time was good and 10% was the push/pull, impulsiveness, selfishness, moodiness, and the occasional rage.

There were times where she would stop communicating for a few days thru the last 3.5 yrs. This caused our first bump in the road last April where we went a week without talking.  Just her communicating her feelings thru sayings on Pinterest.  I accepted this as her anxiety, but with additional research found this site.  And will say it opened up a window of understanding on how a in her 40's women can be so insecure and emotional at times. It makes no sense as she is rather brilliant and functions well at her job.  I came to understand her mirroring, projections, and fears.  This behavior and fears was mostly  impressed upon co-workers and friends.  She makes friends very easily and seems to lose them over time.

Our break-up was actually 3 months ago.  After the breakup we attended an important graduation out of state.  While we flew together with one of her kids we did not attend the ceremony together.  After the ceremony I let them have time together alone out of respect.  After a while I came over to offer my congrats.  This is when I realized I may have been smeared.  While I did not expect everyone to greet me with open arms, I expected a gracious hello.  The kids knew who I was and were very warm and inviting.  My ex and parents not so much.  She seemed very anxiety ridden.

Since then no contact at all.  This I find to be the most hurtful.  Setup marriage plans in July for a possible November wedding.  Then boom early November breakup and no communication whatsover.  I would love to have just a pin prick of understanding. Yes I lost my cool and yelled "How dare you not want to talk about not wanting to get married".  This really was my first real stumble in 3.5 years.  I'm like everyone I have feelings too.

Thanks again JQ for your insight.

clockwork

MapleBob,

Thanks again!  Our relationship had similar occurrences.  We've been engaged for 1.5 yrs.  Overall the relationship was very good.  On a few occasions when trying to calmly discuss a disagreement she would immediately escalate the discussion and breakup.  Luckily we had no need to have too many discussions.  And she would always make up 4-5 hours later.  I just never understood why she would take a calm discussion as a reason to breakup.

Perhaps it was her fear that I would leave just because I wanted to discuss something.  After the few breakups she would always ask me to never say I wanted to breakup with her due to having a discussion.  It was as if she just had the unbearable fear and pain.  I always told her it was never a thought I was just trying to communicate with her so we could grow together.  I have to say I could really feel her pain at times.  It's saddening.

It seems impossible that this timing was a coincidence. Can you say more about this time?

MapleBob-I'm not quite sure I fully understand the question.  Can you please be more detailed in your question.

This made it all make sense to me - https://bpdfamily.com/content/why-we-struggle-in-relationships (https://bpdfamily.com/content/why-we-struggle-in-relationships)

I know she loved me and knew her life was better with me. Over 5.5 years some of her traits even reduced a little.

The problem I think, is that she feels sheer terror and anxiety in a relationship and doesn't know why or even recognise it as we would because it is her norm. She has never known simple relaxed loving relationships, ever, and sadly probably never will. Until the penny drops or some life changing event happens, you can not do anything to make her see this. She has no frame of reference for it. A bit like trying to explain to someone who has never done it what it feels like to jump out of a plane.

My ex would end up making the most illogical reasons for why she was doing things like distancing me. Accused me of being controlling because I gave her too many foot rubs - go figure! But at the same time I could see the extreme angst in her eyes as she knew she was manifesting some really dumb s&*t but couldn't stop doing it. It's like having two opposing, fighting views in your mind at the same time. It must be horrible for them.

I expect she will go through the rest of her life with a couple more failed relationships and lots of sort of close friends as that is all she can manage. It seems sad to us but if it's where she is happiest then I wish that for her.

Don't get me wrong, I would love her to come back but without a massive self realisation it just can't be.

He's asking you because the fear of engulfement is one of the typical traits of BPDs.

Yes, that ... .but it also stood out to me as a particularly telling part of the story. Being more or less left at the altar is a pretty big deal, but if she didn't want to marry you and couldn't muster up the courage to tell you, then that's not necessarily BPD, and might explain her distancing behaviors.

Wedding plans were more in lines with an elopement or very small wedding with very immediate family.  She's had two prior marriages.  While we were originally trying to plan the wedding around the November graduation it was not a workable option. Having said that I'm not sure if she had engulfment fears/cold feet or perhaps she had a change of heart.  Or a combination of all.  A word or two communicated would have been appreciated.  Only communication I received relating negatively about me on her Pinterest is I always was angry all the time.  This was far from true.  I was just frustrated because this time I could not solve the riddle on why she felt low/depressed.  Typically I always found a way.  This time I failed.  Should not have yelled this one time and a few hours later she would have been fine.

There was a lot of push/pull from Sep-Nov. Love you more than you know to not reciprocating a happy anniversary text on our monthly celebrating the day of our first date.   I do know she has basically never accepted fault in her previous marriages or with me.  Always spins things so it is reflected away from her.  I came to really respect one of her exes.  One thing for certain she needs to feel emotion to believe something is real.  Emotionally we were at a low.  Part of the doing was mine with not offering reassurances as I have typically done in the past.  For her she was losing a kid out of state due to graduation.

Past is a very strong predictor of the future, and what you wrote speaks volumes; I don't have doubts she has a serious mental problem.

That's potentially a  red-flag - any idea why her two previous marriages failed? She might have, over the course of a few months, realized that "once (or twice!) bitten means that she had better be twice shy".

Tryingsome,

I respectfully disagree with your statements, "i think on questions like these it is important to take BPD off the table. It isn't that relevant."   It's actually quite relevant because of this website alone AND the fact that clockwork is asking the questions in reference to those who suffer from BPD mental illness. For 3 plus years he's been researching, posting, reading & educating themselves in what BPD is and how it affects not only the BPD, but just as important the people who care & love them.

This website after all is for people in different stages of a BPD relationship and trying to understand, learn, cope with their feelings, emotions, thoughts & actions. No 2 people with or without BPD mental illness are exactly alike in their behavior.  And because of that, no 2 relationships with or without the complication of a "cluster B mental illness" are ever going to be the same. What works for one "normal" relationship might not work for others. The same can be said for a relationship where one is a BPD and the other is a codependent and in fact the latter is quite a turbulent r/s.

There are several types of abuse from physical, mental, emotional abuse just to name a couple.  We all know that physical abuse can be defined as hitting, slapping, etc. without question. But would you consider it physical abuse when you're BPD s/o consistently calls / texts you at 2-3-4 in the morning right in the middle of REM sleep. The most important sleep required for your mind & body to heal?  I know when I spent the night with my BPD, she would constantly "bump" me in the middle of the night to wake me and then would say, "You can't sleep either". This is physical abuse. It can also be said to be mental abuse.  When a BPD belittles you or berates you in front of others or not in front of others this is mental abuse. If your BPD refuses to acknowledges you and or your relationship to family and or friends this is emotional abuse. I have yet to hear from anyone in these forums that this was't done on some scale large or small they were abused and abuse is abuse.  Most Ph.d's & therapist would agree and consider behavior like this a classic BPD behavior in a lot of cases since it consistently happens.

The Readers Digest Version of things ... .Again no 2 people are alike no matter if they have a mental illness or not ... .theres not a cookie cutter one size fits all therapeutic responses and or courses of corrective actions. Just like cancer, no two treatments will ever be the same for those with BPD.  For most of those here in these forums & are in a relationship with a BPD they can be considered a codependent, care giver, perfectionist, protector.  The BPD will always take or be the care taker ... .the codependent will be the care giver ... .giving everything of themselves until in some cases it causes extreme mental & physical exhaustion with the BPD not really showing any empathy ... .because part of the problem with BPD is that they do not care for others ... .they want what they want for themselves and will take it.  It's a very complicated mental illness that will try the patience of even the most seasoned & well educated therapist & Ph.d's.  Contrary to the saying, "Love Does NOT Conquer All" ... .as much as we would like to believe it.

As strange as it might seem, the codependent & BPD are naturally attracted to each other like magnets, "Opposites attract" and there is a book on it, "The Human Magnet Syndrome" that discusses in part this toxic relationship full of turmoil. The codependent needs to look inward, do a deep dive on themselves with the help of a good therapist to see why they are codependent. You might not like what you find, but in the end you'll become more educated about yourself and how you became to be the person you are, the "Knight in Armor, the Sheriff in the White hat" "the perfectionist". How many of those in this forum can say that you've been told, "You're a nice person", "You would give the shirt off your back", etc.  You might find that one of your parents was actually a BPD & your learned behavior was to try and please, gain acceptance, receive a "good job", "excellent grades", "great touchdown", "nice home run" but it was never to come ... .then you might be a codependent or if you prefer a "care giver".

You asked, "Normally a person wouldn't re-enter a relationship that was abusive."   You're correct in this statement ... .if any relationship with a cluster B mental ill person could or would be considered "Normal" ... .ANY relationship with someone who is BPD will NEVER EVER be normal ... .there are example after example of a BPD relationship with a therapist / Ph.d going bad and it has to end. The BPD has tested the patience of the therapist/doc to a point where they can no longer be an effective means of therapy. Or the BPD storms out because the therapist/doc has called them out for some behavior and the BPD leaves the relationship and comes back, leaves, comes back, the cycle repeats until the therapist / doc has had enough which isn't as many times as the codependent would allow.


In order for a person to really educate themselves on BPD and all that comes with it, you have to look at 1/2 the relationship ... .YOU ... .and learn. You might not ever understand your BPD ... .but you can learn about yourself and that is ALWAYS a good thing moving forward.

JQ

Again Jq great insights

Clockwork,

You're really not alone in what is or has happen to you in this relationship ... .and you know from spending 3 years on this site & research I'm not telling you anything new. I can tell you example after example of my personal experience & how similar it is to yours ... .then again you've read about so many similar events/actions/behavior from so many others here and other places. 

You explain classic BPD behavior of her loosing control of the relationship & putting you in a "time out" or "silent treatment". You explained how she tried to keep you distant from her family & friends. You've explained how she didn't like your surprise of showing up at the last moment and how it triggered her emotions of engulfment. You've explained how she's "high functioning & good at her job". My exBPDgf was Ivy league educated & 2 Master degree's ... .REMEMBER ... .BPD is in part the lack of control of emotional behavior. They can NOT regulate their feelings, behaviors & emotions ... .and for us who are codependent AND try to apply logic to the situation at hand all we do is become frustrated at why things are the way they are. After all, all we want to do is care, protect, & love them with all that we have. Different studies of the brain & how it works show different reasons for this cluster B mental illness ... .whether it's genetic, environmental, or a combination of them and a few other things is still to be answered. What is clear is that the frontal cortex where behavior is regulated is severely "broken" and unlike heart bypass can't be fixed with surgery.  As much as we would like it not to be this way ... .we have to remember the 3rd C in the 3 C's of BPD ... ."I can't CURE it!".  Trust me ... .as much as I would like to ... .I can't "fix" her ... .having been in the military for a career there was nothing I felt couldn't be accomplished if given the right tools, and the right team to complete the mission given ... .BPD isn't one of them.

Where the road leads to? Well my friend ... .That's part of the adventure and should be looked as such!    You will need to really ... .REALLY look inward on your journey of self discovery and embrace what you find. How many people go their whole life without asking the questions you're asking and will accept the status quo of a relationship ... .of life? How many people on their death bed after a long life have said, "i wish I would of done this or done that or I regret not saying or doing this?".  You have an incredible opportunity to explore questions others wouldn't even ask of themselves.  Imagine when you find the answers you want just how liberating it will be!  You'll know it when you find it too ... .you will really wake up one morning & things will click into place ... .then that very next sunrise you see will be an incredible amazing liberating force of emotions & feelings and you will truly find a place that only others might dream of ... .you've taken the journey where others where afraid of what they would find ... .you've embraced what you've learned ... .and that moment ... .that moment will be an incredible liberation of total freedom & light & wisdom!

Pack a lunch, a toothbrush & fresh socks and get on the journey of self enlightenment & education ... .nothing BUT good can come from this 

JQ

JQ,

Thank you sincerely for the motivating and as MapleBob said insightful thoughts and words.  And Fr4Nz I agree she may very well have engulfment fears.  This may have been one of my biggest failures on recognizing on when I may be triggering her.  I started to push the wedding and plans to move out of state.  As for the wedding I would have been happy to wait until everything fell comfortably into place.  I just needed understanding on our prospective move.

Truthfully I do not know if she had BPD.  I would appreciate insight from anyone who wants to chime in. 

There have been a few red-flags.  At the start of the relationship she called me at work and we chatted for a few minutes and then politely said I had to go back to my responsibilities.  She then screamed "you don't want me".  This surprised me and I said why would you think that.  She replied "I'm a bad girlfriend".  This gave me reservations, but after this incident she was fine for a lengthy time.  My thoughts she was just emotional on her divorce being finalized 6 months earlier.  I did discover a small shrine at the beginning of our R/S.  Including pictures of us on trips and cards we sent each other.  At first I thought it was cute and made me feel good and special.  Then it grew and became slightly overwhelming and alarming.

Another early sign was when we were visiting my sister out of state.  She thought I was spending too much time with her and went to bed at 10pm.  I joined her a few hours later and she was all upset and pouty.  Sort of driving a subtle divide between my sister.  She also made comments in a slight negative manner against other family members, but these were confined to me.  Her feeling could be hurt oh so easily.  At other times she often was most caring and helpful.

As for when we first started dating she became close to me like I never had anyone become so intimate so quickly. Sexually she acted timid at first, but soon suggested a few things that I was surprised would be mentioned so quickly in a relationship. She said she just felt comfortable with me. After the engagement I did notice a drop in her interest in intimacy.

Her raging was almost non-existent until after we were engaged 2 years into our R/S.  Even then it was limited as she was mostly quiet but would really open up with those who she was comfortable.  There was one time I came over and she was barking at the moon for 20 minutes as her kids stared in wonder.  The oldest child who was in her late teens commented that I was really patient and in control.  As for how she displayed her devaluing---slowly over time with subtle comments.  I would not recognize them immediately and sometimes a future situation would bring them out in thought and slowly add to insecurity.  And as I write this I do remember the one time I thought she was going to give me a shoulder when I went to get up from the couch.  She caught herself and controlled her emotions.  I have know idea what even contributed to this feeling of anguish. And like many there would be periods of silence without returning calls or texts.

All of this is her negative side.  This made up about 10% of our R/S.  The other 90% was very good until this past Sep after our trip.  Within her is an abundance of caring and thoughtful feelings that just seemed to get lost by fears or pain.  An experimenting chef and an accomplished baker and a loving mother and friend. These experience drive my desire for understanding along with my immense feelings for her.  I can see a very sweet, beautiful soul who is just hurting so much on the inside.  Having said this I believe she has started another R/S.  For the 1st time in a month I tried to text her to see if one of her pins were acknowledging one of my email letters.  I was answered with her shutting down her site.

In 3 months I sent 4 email letters, 4 texts and 4 calls.  The calls and emails went unanswered and the text was answered with I'm getting your stuff together to give back to you.  She brought my stuff back by texting me minutes before dropping them off at my retired mother's house with virtually no warning.  A week before this she was talking about how she loved me and planning our possible move out of state,  The full spectrum of Dr Jekyl and Mrs Hyde.  It's unfair to her.  She would not even answer me if I should continue to pay for her child's cell phone.  I was planning on paying for a while and did not just want to cut her off.  As for her pins after the breakup:  She is hurting oh so bad, then suggesting she wants to get back together, know one understands her hurt, everyone and me are to blame, she had so much love for me, , I'm always angry, I'll never find anyone as good as her, everyone abandons her, pictures of engagement rings, and everyone is full of poop, our relationship was special.  She seemed to go from one spectrum to the other with her pins in minutes.

Her feelings for me seemed to have vanished ever so quickly except for disdain.  In situations like this do they re-contact you?  As I previously stated all I said was loudly "How dare you not want to talk about not wanting to get married", and then she was done. 

Well if she is an anxious person then strength and resilience on your part would appear attractive to her. She doesn't need a partner who is more flaky than she is - she probably wants a 'rock' she can trust.

So... .be supportive not needy. Be friendly not desperate. Perhaps show that you're moving on with your life and doing interesting stuff rather than pining for her and she may start to wonder what she's been missing.

I would seriously consider though whether you have the necessary tools to go long term with a pwBPD and, if you don't and are committed, speedily go about acquiring them. Plenty of reading on this site on validation techniques etc.

Good luck!


Fanny

Hi Clockwork,

I know that you're hurting, confused, looking for answers as to what went wrong and what you can do to resolve the breakup. IMHO ... .you are showing classic signs of being a codependent ... .the perfectionist, the knight, the Sheriff, the care giver. You asked for answers ... .my question is if you've been to this sight for 3 years ... .have you sought out professional assistance to help you sort through your thoughts, emotions, etc.

You said, "I would be interested if anyone would be interested in reading my letters to see if they were sensible, well intended and controlled."  This seems to be a statement looking for approval. You're questioning yourself on several levels and asking us if we think the letters are flawed or perfect.

You said,  "Each of my letters have addressed a specific area of our relationship.  The first (Nov) what I saw in all of them, myself and us together. "the Knight in Amor, being the protector of not only her but of her family." The 2nd (Dec) mentioning our challenges and what I believe we had to work on. "The perfectionist"  The third (Dec)included what I saw in her and what made me attracted to her and how we could improve things, "the Sheriff, trying to make things right", and the 4th (Jan) briefly speaking to where I made a few mistakes and where improvements could be made, Again you are expressing how YOU made the mistake & are working towards perfecting yourself for her acceptance. the 5th letter in Feb spoke to the triggers of what happened the last time we were together and let her know I would be there for her,. "   Again, this is the "Knight in Armor" being there for her, protecting her.

I would agree with FannyB and seriously consider if you have the necessary tools to be in a committed relationship with someone who "might" have a Cluster B mental illness.  IMHO the thing you need to address first is yourself ... .here are some questions for you ... .

Why do you think you're the perfectionist? The protective Knight? The Sheriff? Why do you over analyze the relationship and not let it "just be" if it is meant to be? Where did these behaviors of yours originate? 

Just MHO

J

Hi Clockwork

I wasn't suggesting you were flaky - just saying that being 'strong' was likely to be a more attractive characteristic to someone with an anxiety disorder.

You do seem a very analytical person. Could your ex have perceived that as controlling and could that have been triggering for her?

Fanny

This might be a good insight! My ex certainly had difficulty with my rational, smart, analytical approach to life juxtaposed with her more extreme emotional reactions to things. She saw it as incompatible - when, of course, she could have chosen to see it as complimentary.

JQ,

Thanks for being straightforward.  

The request for my letters is to determine if I was giving the impression of being needy.  Sometimes another can point out what an author does not see.  Understanding if I appeared needy would tell me what the chance I have with her coming back.  And to be clear I want her back, but I do not need her.  I'm somewhat intelligent, physically capable, and financially sound.

As for the other questions I'll start by stating I had a fairly loving and stable family growing up.

As a perfectionist---My father pushed us to always do what is correct and honorable.  He was a good man who commanded and helped many.

Protective knight----My mother who taught caring for others was of importance.  

The Sheriff---Perhaps both my folks instilled this or that is just a male trait to be a fixer.

I'll add our few challenges I speak to were improving our communication.  I tried to set boundaries that she just lets me know what's up with her.  This is the same original request she has of me.  Nothing too demanding just hey "I'm going to be doing this or that".  As for her freedom of doing things on her own and building her own life.  I am all for that as I believe that brings harmony to a R/S.  I let her be responsible for her own actions. Yes, my help was available only if she stumbled or requested.  She was there to help me too at times. I believe her fears that I would ask her whats up was playing with her insecurities that I was checking on her.  I had full trust in her.  Without that there is no need for a R/S.  It will not survive.

As for over analyzing.  It's two fold.  That is part of my basic makeup and I'm trying to rekindle the relationship.  Perhaps I should have just let the R/S go. But life comes around once and I felt she was worth the pursuit and effort.   I really believe we ended due to misunderstanding of what our intentions were when communicating along with our desires.  Having said that I believe if we had this understanding it would have made known that we most likely were on the same page.  Hence, my addressing our challenge that we needed to improve our communication.  I failed at times to validate her feelings.  But she did not always open up which is something I said I needed her to do.  A relationship with her requires a non-typical approach as she is very emotional.  Obviously I made mistakes, but in time I would have understood the best approach when times were triggering.  I'll be honest I have no idea why she shutdown so quickly.  To me I believe she did not believe my feelings were true.

Another reason perhaps we were at a low emotionally by not doing much together.  Yes, I failed to work on me as I concentrated on moving out of state. But sometimes life gets in the way.  I guess that's analyzing, but it is also real.  She just seemed to jump ship the 1st time we had a real low.

JQ-On the surface your depth of knowledge in this area seems very solid.  If you don't mind I would like to tap into your perception and understanding.

JQ,  can you provide me why you don't believe I don't have the necessary tools for a R/S with someone who has a cluster B?  Why does having the above traits provide detriment to the R/S with a cluster B?  And with having these traits is the R/S hopeless or can adjustments be made for harmony?

Thanks, clockwork

 

It seems like you had fairly healthy boundaries with her, clockwork - to another "healthy" person, that is. Improving communication would be crucial to your continuing this relationship, but it sounds to me (from what you say, and not hearing her side of things) that the difficulties in communication were mainly on her end. You can't force her to suddenly develop skills that she doesn't have. My ex did very similar things: keeping me in the dark about crucial issues that had triggered her until they became chronic, obsessive thoughts for her. In a healthy relationship, mistakes are made - but then you talk about them at the earliest opportunity once you realize they are problems. If you don't, then you have failed to take responsibility for yourself and your part of the relationship ... .and you wind up walking out on an engagement with a clearly decent, willing partner.


First of all, a breakup is rarely as sudden as it appears to be. It sounds like she thought this out and pushed away slowly over the course of months (probably while vacillating heavily) - and then more suddenly as the wedding approached. She's probably aware that your feelings are true, but are hers? I'm not getting the feeling from what you're telling us that she didn't believe that you loved her.

FannyB,

Thanks for reply-Yes I'm analytical.  At times I believe this may have contributed to some difficulties.  Most specifically when life got in the way.  A R/S is a two way street and adjustments are required by both.  I understand her emotions at times may prevent her from understanding the true intentions of an interaction.  When these situations arise is when I have to lead with the heart.  Her emotions at times seem to escalate a simple talk.  Especially mid Sep-Nov.  I know I became more anxious and was not the strongest at this time.

She's claimed before that I was controlling.  But I believe she was actually seeing one of her exe's instead of me when making that interpretation.  I can be intense when repeatedly pushed, but for the most part I'm laid back.

For me I believe her biggest hangups is she thought I was controlling her when I inquired what she was up to. She requested we share this info.   I wanted her to be active an have her own life to enhance us.  I believe during the evening before I loudly made my statement this was what was bothering her.  I asked what she was up to and it seemed to incite her.  This may be why she said she impulsively said she did not want to get married.  When I told her I was happy she went out it appeared a light bulb went off in her head and she became more relaxed.  Maybe this is why she did not want to discuss her marriage statement anymore.

In hindsight this is one time I should have left my emotions at bay an not continued to question her marriage statement.

As for MapleBobs statement I agree with the analytical nature being a compliment to another who is driven by emotion.  It is complimentary and both can learn from each other.  This is one reason I like to understand.  Continuing to grow and enhance oneself as one goes thru life.  No one is ever always right, another's perception can make you think, and if you felt about that instead of thinking would you have reacted differently.  

First of all, a breakup is rarely as sudden as it appears to be. It sounds like she thought this out and pushed away slowly over the course of months (probably while vacillating heavily) - and then more suddenly as the wedding approached. She's probably aware that your feelings are true, but are hers? I'm not getting the feeling from what you're telling us that she didn't believe that you loved her.[/quote]
MapleBob I can't disagree with you.  This is the understanding I would have liked to have received from her from a chat. 

I will add her pins after the breakup stated that she loved me.  She told recently before the b/u she loved me more than I know.  When we broke up she was emotional to the extreme.  Perhaps she was on the cusp. Her behavior changed during the last 6 weeks.  She did add a pin sometimes behavior changes due to others actions.  Well if it was my actions she should have communicated that to me.  I had no idea what I wasn't or was doing to trigger her.  She obviously did not fight for us.  This is something she blamed on her exes.  It may always be her just running away.  I really believe once there is a lul in emotion she feels abandoned and for her own security wants to have that met by some other means.  If bailing is what it takes she feels she must due that to decrease her fears and pain.

I did not ever truly yell at her except that one morning.  Perhaps she was on the cusp in her own mind and I added fears.  She most likely lost trust.

She may not understand even for herself why she does these things. My suspicion is that a chat would/will push her further into dysregulated emotion. If you have the opportunity to speak with her again, you may have to do what we like to call "grey rock". You have no needs, you are passive, and supportive/validating. But that sounds like a pretty big "if".


Mine told me she loved me literally every time we spoke, for 10+ months post-breakup. She said it as she was leaving too, and I haven't spoken to her in six weeks. She may very well love you - or she may feel the emotions of love towards you - but a relationship is about doing love. Do you have any reason to believe that she will do her love for you (so to speak)?


That was certainly my ex's modus operandi as well. She even warned me about it at the beginning of our relationship. "I tend to run when it gets hard." So as soon as the honeymoon period passed and I was revealed as an actual person with my own difficulties and idiosyncrasies, she started to leave. And it took her a long time to actually do it - several months, much like your ex. I continued to engage her, and things got worse and worse.

MapleBob & JQ,

This is why I wrote letters to see if I could try to reestablish trust.  My reasons for asking about my letters is did I do more damage than good.  Do I sound weak.  To emotional.  Or more matter of fact and trusting.  I'm just trying to determine if she may or may not communicate down the line.  I understand it's not probable. 

I guess I see the good in her and would like to point her in the direction of DBT therapy at some point. She has had 6 months of therapy which she said was for anxiety.  She did not like to talk about it.  At least she was open to therapy-so she say's. To ask her probably took the breakup, because I had no idea how I could ask her.  If she came back it would be easier to communicate this in time as I would be coming from more from the outside with less to lose.   I myself have no kids and probably never will.  I guess there's nothing wrong with trying to a good deed in this lifetime.  Why else are we here?

As for first communications and my letters.  I agree MapleBob I've been supporting , validating, and non-accusatory.  I just hope I did not sound weak as this typically is not my nature.  In a normal R/S I try to come in on an even playing field. 

I have one last question.  A few days ago I asked if any of her recent pins were about my letters.  Th text was first communication attempt in a while.  She ended up taking her site down immediately and did not reply to text.  Would it be appropriate to send an email just saying my text was an attempt to offer her gratitude in case she was recognizing and responding to one of my letters?  Or is that just foolish?  Whether if this is done or not I do understand further communication may be futile and foolish on my end.

I'm hearing that you really want a response to your letters, and that is absolutely an appropriate expectation. It's dishonoring/disrespectful of her not to respond. However, it seems to me that your goal is to re-engage her, and she is making it pretty clear that she's not ready/willing to do that. I think that initiating further communication with her is going to result in a similar response from her.

On the subject of her pins: I think it would be safe to assume that she is pinning things that are relevant to her. (She pins what she wants to pin.) It's very likely that they have something to do with you as well, but if she's trying to communicate with you via Pinterest... .I mean, she has your number. She could be a lot more direct - and should, and would be more direct with you! - if she wanted to make sure you got the message. She certainly got your text, and her response was to take down her pinterest. Sadly, I'd say that's the opposite of wanting to communicate with you.


It very very rarely goes well when a non tries to get a cluster-B into therapy. No matter how loving you are about it, it connects on the level of "hey, you're pretty crazy and that sucks for me and you're bad and you should be different and you need some serious help with that because you're incapable, etc." Work on your side of this first, worry about hers later.

It really sounds like you've been a real champ about all of this, clockwork. This isn't your fault, and it isn't your responsibility to get her to seek help. You can make yourself available to her if she reaches out, and you can make peace with this in the meanwhile. But until she chooses to engage there's not a lot else you can do. I feel for you - I've been there all too recently.

MapleBob,

Thanks for your quick reply. I have time just to send one more before I have to get back to work.  I understand she will not be responding anytime soon to my communications and most likely never.  I just wondered if sending an email would cause more harm than good? 

My letters have been to build trust.  Her pins have been a way to communicate.  She has done this many times with me in the past as odd as it is.  Having said that I agree she may just be talking to herself this time.  I just don't want to destroy any trust I may have built in my letters from emailing her.  I don't believe I've been overbearing in my communications to this point except for the text which may have been a surprise. 

My email would be "just saying my text was an attempt to offer her gratitude in case she was recognizing and responding to one of my letters.  One of her last pins was "At times i'm not always ok to talk about things.  But it is good that you are there to be a support network".  If you believe foolish or harmful to send feel free to say so

It doesn't sound like you've been overbearing in your communications with her, which is good! But I think you should sleep on sending her any more communiques. Give it a day, then if you're still undecided, give it another day. But in my layman's opinion, she's giving you the hint that she won't respond to communication. Validate that by respecting it, for now at least.

Are you familiar with codependence?

Hey Clockwork,

MapleBob makes some really good & valid points in some of his comments. In particular, "However, it seems to me that your goal is to re-engage her, and she is making it pretty clear that she's not ready/willing to do that. I think that initiating further communication with her is going to result in a similar response from her. .  With someone who has Cluster B BPD mental illness, it has been established that THEY will reach out when & how THEY want too. No amount of calls, emails, text, Pinterest, etc is going to make her change her mind.  and MapleBob emphasis this point with, "She certainly got your text, and her response was to take down her pinterest. Sadly, I'd say that's the opposite of wanting to communicate with you."  IF & WHEN she wants to reach out to you she will ... .you can't force the situation or do your own manipulation of the situation via email or text to speed the process along.

MapleBob also makes a very valuable point, "It very very rarely goes well when a non tries to get a cluster-B into therapy."  Trying to get someone into mental healthy therapy is as tough if not more then trying to get someone into AA.  In both cases they have to recognize & realize & admit to themselves they have a serious problem and they need to seek out professional help. Even when they do for whatever reason there is no guarantee that it's going to provide much management of the problem. As I've said, my BPD is & has been in & out of therapy for 25 plus years and continues to have major behavioral problems that this site educates about.

You asked me a question ... ."can you provide me why you don't believe I don't have the necessary tools for a R/S with someone who has a cluster B?"


Cluster B is defined by the Mayo Clinic as ... ."Cluster B personality disorders

Cluster B personality disorders are characterized by dramatic, overly emotional or unpredictable thinking or behavior. They include antisocial personality disorder, borderline personality disorder, histrionic personality disorder and narcissistic personality disorder. It's not necessary to exhibit all the signs and symptoms listed for a disorder to be diagnosed."

BPD as defined by Johns Hopkins Medicine Health Library, Cluster B"borderline personality disorder. People with this disorder are not stable in their perceptions of themselves, and have difficulty keeping stable relationships. Moods may also be inconsistent, but never neutral. Their sense of reality is always seen in "black and white." People with borderline personality disorder often feel as though they lacked a certain level of nurturing while growing up. As a result, they constantly seek a higher level of caretaking from others as adults. This may be achieved through manipulation of others, leaving them often feeling empty, angry, and abandoned, which may lead to desperate and impulsive behavior."

National Institute of Mental Health

Borderline personality disorder (BPD) is a serious mental illness marked by unstable moods, behavior, and relationships. In 1980, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual for Mental Disorders, Third Edition (DSM-III) listed BPD as a diagnosable illness for the first time. Most psychiatrists and other mental health professionals use the DSM to diagnose mental illnesses. People with this disorder also have high rates of co-occurring disorders, such as depression, anxiety disorders, substance abuse, and eating disorders, along with self-harm, suicidal behaviors, and completed suicides.

The findings suggest that either people with borderline personality disorder are not persuaded by rewards of money in the same ways as healthy people, or that they do not regard low investment offers as a violation of social norms. The researchers also found that people with borderline personality disorder reported lower levels of trust in general, compared with healthy participants. In other words, untrustworthy behavior by the investors would not be seen as a violation of social norms because the participants with borderline personality disorder had less trust in their partners to begin with.


US National Library Medicine defines:

BORDERLINE PERSONALITY DISORDER is a chronic psychiatric disorder characterized by marked impulsivity, instability of mood and interpersonal relationships, and suicidal behaviour that can complicate medical care. Identifying this diagnosis is important for treatment planning.

So with that being said, ask yourself the same question. AS good as your intention is to be a part of her life and more importantly want to build a life with her and her kids ... .do YOU feel YOU are equipped with the necessary tools giving the serious mental illness she has?  

JQ

Clockwork,

Define ... .Codependent relationships are a type of dysfunctional helping relationship where one person supports or enables another person's addiction, poor mental health, immaturity, irresponsibility, or under-achievement.

10 Signs of a Codependent Relationship

Author Melody Beattie wrote the book “Codependent No More” and developed the following checklist for determining whether or not you may in a codependent relationship:

Do you feel responsible for other people’s feelings — their thoughts, actions, choices, wants, needs, well-being, and destiny?

Do you feel compelled to help other people solve their problems or try to take care of their feelings?

Do you find it easier to feel and express anger about the injustices done to other people than about injustices done to you?

Do you feel safest and most comfortable when you are giving to others?

Do you feel insecure and guilty when someone gives to you?

Do you feel empty, bored, or worthless if you don’t have someone else to take care of, a problem to solve, or a crisis to deal with?

Are you often unable to stop talking, thinking, and worrying about other people and their problems?

Do you lose interest in your life when you are in love?

Do you stay in relationships that don’t work and tolerate abuse in order to keep people loving you?

Do you leave bad relationships only to form new ones that don’t work either?

Dangers of Codependency and BPD

It’s easy to get into a codependent relationship with a person who has Borderline Personality Disorder given the nature of BPD. There is a tendency for loved ones to slip into caretaker roles, giving priority and focus to problems in the life of the person with BPD rather than to issues in their own lives.

Too often in these kinds of relationships, the codependent will gain a sense of worth by being “the sane one” or “the responsible one.” There is almost always an unconscious reason for continuing to put another person’s life ahead of your own, and often it is because of the mistaken notion that self-worth comes from other people.

When we give up ourselves to help others, we rob ourselves of the potential for a richer, fuller existence that includes self-care and self-love. We also rob the other person of their opportunity to grow and take responsibility for their own problems. Often, it is only when the safety net has been removed that people take steps to look out for their own well-being.


Co-Dependents Anonymous (CoDA) is a set of informal self-help groups made up of men and women with a common interest in working through the problems that co-dependency has caused in their lives. coda-uk.org

Explore: Co-Dependents Anonymous


JQ

JQ, I appreciate your update on whether I'm equipped with the tools to have a relationship with someone with a Behavioral disorder. Honestly I do not know.  But my will and intention usually pushes me to persevere thru most any situation.

All I can do is continue to gain an understanding and prepare myself if that opportunity arises. She is worth not abandoning.  Yes it most likely will take a miracle from the Almighty for all to see, recognize and accept the truth of it all.  And from that truth her being open to the pain and difficulties she will have to accept to allow her to overcome this undeserved hardship.  I know I made a few mistakes in our R/S.  I find there is nothing wrong with me providing her support if she seeks that from me. 

I do have a request for the items in bold above.  These traits being in particular the Perfectionist, Sheriff and the protective Knight?

As for perfectionist I'll speak to that now.  Our challenge was communication and this was all I was trying to fix.  This is something where improvement was needed from the both of us.  For me understanding her anxiety triggers to prevent unneeded apprehension along with utilizing validation skills and incorporating them as a routine practice.   I started to do this, but often did not practice validation.  For her she needs to learn to feel comfortable with opening up with what is truthfully troubling her.  I'm certain this at times was of the most difficulty for her causing her pain/anxiety.

You want to save the relationship, I get that. So on that notion, look at your quote above. This is likely never going to happen, her being truthful about what is troubling her; not if she has BPD. You have to be okay with it.

You can't expect her to change. You have to be okay with it.

Any notion of she needs to do ... .something... .  is not going to happen.

You have to be okay with it. 

You are you. She is she.

Cherish that and it might work.

The only person to save and fix will always be you.

Cherish that and it might work. 

Be strong and you got this!

And have tons of support

Is there any way we can have the OP turn this into a poll with all the answers posted to it?