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Okay, two days now in the past two weeks, BPDh has insisted he can't drive his sports car, and insists on taking mine, leaving me stranded home. Now, in the past, I set a boundary around this, and he ended up carpooling(which led to his boss insisting he get his own car, and he was written up for various reasons... .mostly job performance, but the car thing reflected badly on him). I got tired of getting stranded home while he drove my car, because he was spending the insurance payoff.

Now, here we are again. He chose this car that is not front wheel drive, and has sports tires, not me. I warned him. Yet, I'm the one being stranded because he insists on driving my car, and says his is too dangerous to drive in this snow.

This is becoming a pattern again, and while I realize he needs to go to work, it's not fair that I'm paying the price for HIS bad choice of car.

Do I set the boundary about "drive the car you picked, I'm sick of being stranded at home"? Or just not rock the boat(which I'm really sick of). I mean, he makes poor choices, and they effect ME, but he doesn't seem to learn from HIS poor choices.

Advice... .

Just hide keys form ur car from him :)

Which kind of sport car do u have? just curiouse :)

He bought a Dodge Challenger, I have a Pontiac Torrent(SUV). His looks like a midlife crisis on wheels, and can't be driven in snow. Mine is practical, and paid off.

He went to bed mad at me, and telling me to "never speak of his kids again", because I asked a question about if he was going to give his son his last guitar. He's already given him two, and I wanted to know if he was going to give the last one to him also. Some of my best memories are of BPDh playing his guitar to me, and I know he wants the guitar, but all his son has to do is look at it, hint he wants it, and BPDh will give it to him. He thinks he can buy his grown kids' love and loyalty, and of course it doesn't work.

It's totally impractical, and downright CONTROLLING, to tell me I can never mention his kids? What sort of nonsense is that? We talk about mine, but his are off limits? He was really nasty about it too. We've now had three marriage therapists tell him that isn't a solution, but he's back to "don't ever mention my kids". He acts like I'm not even fit to speak their names.

I won't pretend they are perfect angels, and I don't with mine either. I deal in REALITY, and he doesn't like to do that. He creates his own reality. I'm awful, and they are wonderful, and he's getting into the mode where he is saying "this is getting hard again", meaning the marriage.

Heck yeah, it's hard. He's angry all the time, and he's depressed and he's negative. He sinks into this dark morass, and he just wallows there. It's hard because he chooses to make it hard.

I end up apologizing when I KNOW I didn't do anything wrong by just asking a simple question about his guitar. He chose how he responded, and he chose to stay mad. I gave him space, but even when I later came back into the room, he gave me a look of disgust/contempt, and then started shaking his head. Seriously? He's irrational, gets mad over a simple question, but I'm the bad guy?

He also laid out a whole new set of "rules" of things I can't do: don't text him, don't call him at work(I needed to know if he was bringing my car back because I needed it), don't talk about his kids... .next what's it going to be? Don't breathe?

I went to the store because I didn't want to deal with him, and I was feeling panicky. Even driving on unplowed roads, in a snow storm is better than being around him when he's like this.

I seriously think he can't go to sleep at night until he's gotten angry at me. It's become quite the pattern. He unloads on me, he seems to feel better, then he sleeps like the dead. I'm left feeling hurt or angry, or thinking "why do I stay for this crap"? No way do I deserve to be treated this way.

I actually stood up to him tonight and told him flat out that he does not get to tell me what I can and can't talk about, or what I can or can't feel! I don't do that to him. I told him I just want to be treated the way I treat him: with respect, and kindness.

I don't know. Being nice to him hasn't made HIM any nicer, what do I have to lose by being selectively assertive for myself?

I imagine setting a boundary around the car would be a hard one... .At least it would be a hard one for me.

I realize that it was his choice to buy the sports car and all, however, if I were married, I too would see both cars as our cars and if I had to go to work, I'd assume I'd take the safer car if my H was going to not work that day.  (I actually told my ex to buy a sports car because we had a suv and we could alternate as needed... .but that is another story... .and I would not be left trapped)

I am not saying you should not set a boundary around the car... .  But are you really prepared to enforce that one consistently for the next few months and see how that unravels?

Idk, just imho, start your boundary setting on something smaller or easier for you.  Something that seems more doable for you.

Maybe start with: CB will speak about his kids as she wishes, however, will realize this is likely a triggering topic and will be mindful to do it in a positive manner.

He cannot control you on this one unless you are the one giving him the control.  Your choice.

Idk... .just throwing a thought out there in case it can get tossed around until something someone says may be helpful.

Do his kids live with you?

No, you do not deserve this treatment.

However, you do choose to subject yourself to it.

You stay there while he unloads on you. You are making a choice to be present for this.

I'm pretty sure that he will continue to do it as long as you allow him to.

So let me ask you--really. WHY DO YOU STAY FOR THIS CRAP

You are doing it. What is your answer?

Seriously, who has the BPD?

In the past two weeks my BPD partner has;

i) assaulted me

ii) insulted me for countless hours

iii) insisted that I must pay half her rent if I want to see her, because she doesn't like the suburb in which I own my house

iv) set up an online dating account

v) demanded that I come home from work at 10am or "I'll see what happens... ."

vi) not allowed me more than 3 or 4 hours sleep per night to berate me over my short comings

vii) started manipulating those few friends and family that still give her the time of day into believing I am abusing her!

and countless, countless other things.

Your BPD husband has insisted (I guess you mean asked) that he takes the more practical of the two cars you guys (husband and wife) own, to go to work on two occasions inside the last two weeks.

When you write "HIS bad choice of car", "HIS poor choices", "they effect ME", it sounds like someone else may have BPD. When you go off on a tangent to throw in irrelevant lines to devalue your husband including comments on his supposed poor job performance and him spending the insurance payoff it again sounds like someone else may have issues.

Oh sh*t, I could go on and on and on about how your original post and later reply just scream to anyone who really is living with a pwBPD that the diagnosis is the wrong way around.

You may think I am trolling if you like (I am sure that this post breaks countless rules for this forum), think whatever you like, but I can promise this: Take your posts to a good psychiatrist and try to find insight. Because I can promise you that without insight, your life will never improve.

Is the car title in your name?

Put the keys away and do not discuss it.

If he was kind to you would you care about this as much?

I think bigger question is in Grey Kitty post.

FF

Snowmonkey while I think your insights are valid insights, there is a lot going on in her relationship that I don't think you have accounted for. Her husband is emotionally abusive and she is quite afraid of him. While I think she complains a lot, this seems to be her way of venting. I've been there and complained about my husband many times because sometimes it feels good to vent.

CB, one thing I noticed is that you asked him if he was going to give away his other guitar. This seems to me like a bit of a passive aggressive question. You were clearly irritated before that he gave away his other guitars and asking him about the remaining guitar seems to me like stirring the pot. I'm not innocent of this myself, I throw in passive aggressive remarks to my husband sometimes because I get frustrated but I usually regret it because it causes a fight, it's meant to cause a fight. Passive aggression for me is a sign of codependency, I've gotten better about not doing it.

I also agree with Grey Kitty, why do you stick around for him to unload on you? Again, I've been there I've sat through literally hours of toxic emotional abuse, being blamed for everything wrong in his life and then some. But now if something happens I go to the other room, He knows the next step after that is me leaving the home, he storms off and leaves me alone after slamming the door, always has to get the last word in.

I'm also in agreement that both vehicles we own are shared vehicles, they are actually both in my name. His vehicle is a truck and we live in a rural area, I would much rather drive the truck than our car, any car. When it snows I take his vehicle. I know this is hard to swallow but he did buy a sports car, you can't change that, if it makes more sense for him to drive your vehicle in the snow then I wouldn't make a big deal about it. It may feel unfair but you are choosing to stay in this relationship and when something makes sense to do, I wouldn't push it.

It seems like you have a lot of I told you so's in your posts. You want to be heard but you aren't being heard. I don't think that is going to change. One thing I think you need to understand is that your husband may not be choosing to get mad over something, he lacks coping skills and he also knows that you will basically bend over backwards for him when he gets angry at you. You apologize when you haven't done anything wrong, he really has no reason to act civil towards you because he is getting what he wants. He's not choosing to stay mad at you, this is an emotional regulation disorder, they are going to get mad when you push their buttons, that's what the disorder is about. What you are responsible for is not sticking around for the blow up. Once he realizes that blowing up at you doesn't help his cause, then and only then will he try something different, like trying to be calm and talking.

My husband has a TBI along with BPD, I can attest that it is hard not to set him off sometimes, it's not my fault, he is just easily triggered (and yes that is something they teach you in DBT) They want you to recognize your own triggers so that you can better not react to them. I have triggers as well, you probably do too. One of the biggest things couples therapy pointed out to us is that we each trigger the other and it's a big mess. When you understand your own triggers it helps keep things calmer. Just something to think about.

CB,

Please go back to GKs post and consider what he said about what you are doing now is WORSE than just boundary busting. 

I'll speak for myself, I hope others can validate or dispute my view, I think you would be better off to drop all boundary enforcement efforts until you can get it right.

Only enforce boundaries that you know you can hold.

I was very blessed to have senior members on here "get to me" so that my first boundary (passwords and phone locking) held.  It was hard.  If you remember my story (possible TMI alert, prudes skip forward) my wife had a hold of "my member" at the point of entry of having sex (me on top of her) saying I "could get in there" if I gave her the password.

Uh, pun intended, it was hard to resist, but I did. 

I said no, rolled off and proceeded to go to bed.  No yelling, no reaction.  Even though inside me I wanted to call her everything in the book.  A few minutes later she acted like it was no big deal and she didn't mean it.  From time to time she still "says something" about passwords but it passes quickly.

Had I not held to the plan/boundary I would have been screwed for a long time, yeah, I went there.   |iiii

So, back to CBs story.  Until you are ready to keep keys and let him rage, let the chips fall, please don't resist at all.

Some unanswered questions out there about vehicle titling and Cloudy Days way of looking at cars makes sense.  This is not about what makes sense to us.  This is about you, your boundaries and your car. 

FF

CB, I just remembered something I've recommended many times over the years here.

Protecting yourself against verbal/emotional abuse is probably the best choice of a single boundary to start with, for one pragmatic reason.

If you pick another boundary to enforce first (like one around the car)... .he will almost immediately jump to verbal/emotional abuse to bust past it.

When you have done it before, and you *KNOW* you can stand firm in the face of his attempts at verbal/emotional abuse/manipulation/raging/etc., you are ready to tackle other issues, without having to fear you will cave when he gets angry.

After tossing around some thoughts on boundaries on your threads, I think I have learned and concluded (some things similar to what GK and FF has said)... .

1. The first boundary that needs to be set in stone with an individual is their boundary on abuse.

      A. Have a clear personal definition of abuse (Do not decide after the fact if a situation may be abusive.  You should be familiar enough with your definition that is is an OBJECTIVE certainty and not up for debate in your head.)

      B. This means knowing exactly what actions you will take IMMEDIATELY to uphold your boundary. (Not after some thinking it through... .or discussion.)

      C. Commitment to complete follow through of 'B' in all circumstances without fail.  ('Trying' is not good enough.  It means that you need to revisit strengthening your resolve.)

2. If you know your relationship has had a history of physical abuse or you suspect that it has the potential for physical harm then... .

      A. You must have a clear safety plan in place (enforcing a boundary on emotional abuse may lbe successful, yet lead to an extinction burst where the SO escalates to violence.)

             a1.  Your safety plan should include a safe place to go.

             a2.  People who can provide emotional support

             a3.  Duplicates of important documents such as driver license and birth certificate, credit card, etc and cash on hand.

             a4.  Other stuff I cannot think of off hand... .

I think watching some of these threads play out helps me to appreciate why a T may refuse to see a couple for MC and pause all couples counseling while the issue of DV is present and unresolved.

Like GK suggests, how could you ever find success in asserting any boundary if he can simply pull the verbal/emotional/physical abuse card out of his back pocket every time as an extinction burst?

As long as someone is able to hold fear over your head, I cannot see how you can uphold any other boundary.  Sure, it is possible that 'he may allow' once or twice for you to uphold a boundary.  However, if this foundational boundary of fear and intimidation is not addressed, then any 'perceived' progress made toward boundary enforcement can go out the window in a second.

Going through a cycle of trying and failing in setting boundaries just reinforces the abuse cycle dynamic.  Rather than promoting healing, it sends the message that you will consistently back down if enough fear and intimidation is used.  Each time you resist, he breaks you, he learns stronger abuse tactics will be necessary.

However, you don't seem to even be 'benefitting' so much from a 'honeymoon period after the abuse, but rather a minor lull in verbal/emotional assaults.

I can see why our MC wanted Couple therapy halted until abuse dynamic delt with.  How could anything done be beneficial when each person was not having their own 'agency of independent thought and behavior?'

I worry that you discuss things like a guitar and a car to avoid the 'elephant' in the room of abuse via fear and intimidation.  It can be an escape to magnify other problems to allow your mind to not dwell on your fear.  It can be easier to feel angry at him, than to feel vulnerable and learn to care for yourself with compassion and love.

To clarify, I was upset about him loaning the guitars because I viewed the one guitar as a gift, I'd gotten him. I feel he should have some respect or sentiment attached to that. The guitar he picked out for himself, whatever, loan it to your kid and let him wreck it, whatever. I just feel that BPDh doesn't respect much of anything: his stuff, my feelings, or himself. Our MC(and also my personal therapist), was saying tonight that BPDh seems to have really lax boundaries.

I don't think the guitar, or any other issues are the elephant in the room. We actually DO address the verbal abuse issues, and I used to address the physical abuse, but he'd just deny, or blame me for it. I'm thinking that one of his therapists must have gotten through to him on the physical aspect, because it's stopped.

I do feel that I know exactly what the verbal abuse is, and I don't need to think about it after, or discuss it here. It helps to vent here, but I'm very cognizant in the moment it's happening. I may react calmly, because I don't want things to escalate(although he still escalates), but inside I'm thinking: "this is so not cool" or "how can he not see or hear the way he's talking to me"? I always know it's not okay, but efforts to try to address it with him always make him more defensive, even if I use "I" statements, or a soft approach, or use the tools.

Mostly, when he gets verbally abusive, I try to walk away now, or go do something to distract myself. I've gone to a movie alone, I do the meditation type coloring that is so popular now, or in the summer I'll leave for a walk.

Snowmonkey: I've never had anyone on here be so offensive as you were in your post. You point the finger at me, but to me, everything YOU said sounds like you are projecting crap your partner has done, onto ME. I'm stating FACTS about my spouse. He did in fact spend his car insurance payoff, and even his Dad wanted him to buy a car, not blow the money. Now, his Dad has known him his whole life, does his DAD have BPD too(hint: he doesn't). It's also fact that BPDh isolates me, as many abusers do. He also did choose to buy a car that's impractical for our northern climate. Fact. His job performance, and recent write up, that included a threat to terminate him if his job performance doesn't improve are NOT meant to demean him(he's not reading this), it's meant to present facts and paint the picture of how things are. I've been physically and verbally abused by the man I love, and am committed to, and if I did have BPD, I would work my issue, and not have shame in it. I find your attitude, and your lack of empathy really offensive. Please stay off my blogs if you are going to personally attack me. I may have issues with boundaries with BPDh, but I do not have issues with boundaries with rude people, and your response was rude, and totally out of line. 

Also, I really didn't ask him about giving away his last guitar, his acoustic, to be passive aggressive in any way. I'm way too afraid of his threats and anger to do anything I think might set him off. I was just hurt that he'd loaned out(ie: given away) the one guitar I'd given him, and I just wanted him to keep ONE guitar. Some of my best memories of us are of him playing the guitar for me. Now, I'm not saying I've never once in this relationship been passive aggressive, but I can say after he got physical, and after the verbal abuse took on an ugly level, I was very careful to never be passive aggressive. That just really isn't my style anyway.

I do try to vent here, and in therapy, but I also set goals in therapy, and I've gotten a lot out of my therapy in the last six months. If I didn't complain or vent here, I'd be in a lot worse shape. I do quite a bit of self care, and I really, really am in a much better place than I was a couple years ago. Yeah, I'm still afraid of his anger, and his threats, but I'm learning to cope with both better. And I do think he has moments when he's working his DBT.

I pretty much haven't done anything related to my car(it's in my name) that would set him off. I did set a boundary around it during the summer, but of course I know in bad weather, he has to take it. I just am upset that he bought a car that can't be driven in snow, when he'd been saying he should get a truck. Then I wouldn't be stranded without a car. I just thought we could come up with a solution like me driving him to work and picking him up, like a reasonable couple would. I DID NOT know he was going to get so very angry, and blow up at me just because I expressed that I didn't like to be stuck home. I can't predict what will make him mad, and as you stated, DBT is supposed to help him identify his triggers. I can't. One time he's capable of a topic, then another time he's goes off the charts. It's not always even anything controversial.

I can only change ME, and my reactions to him. I think everyone is right, that any boundary I set, will just be derailed because all he has to do to get his way is threaten divorce, or get verbally abusive, and I tend to back down out of fear. I'm good at walking away most times, but it upsets him, because then he feels abandoned. I guess I just have to let him feel that way, and learn to self soothe? I don't deserve to stick around and have insults hurled at me, or be threatened.


I guess walking away from the verbal abuse, is a boundary I can stick to. At least it's a start. If he's able to be angry but respectful, I'll engage, because all I truly want is a way we can both be heard, and to find a middle ground. Heck, most times I'll even just let him have his way, but I'd like him to at least ask me nicely, instead of being a bully with his threats.

Ceruleanblue:

First things first, I guess I should help you with some terminology and an understanding of some basic concepts.

I am not "projecting" crap that my partner has done to me on to you. Projecting has a very specific meaning which is thrown around, usually by the one who is doing the projection. The word you are actually looking for is transference. In fact, to be more accurate I should write countertransference, since in this context you are writing as the patient and those who reply are in some sense behaving as the clinicians (I use that term very loosely). A good article that alludes to this concept and may interest you can be found here:

www.psychiatrictimes.com/borderline-personality/borderline-personality-disorder-splitting-countertransference-0

And, to be entirely honest, you would probably be correct. I am engaging in countertransference. If I see someone behaving and writing and speaking exactly as my BPD partner would, then I will probably redirect some of the feelings I have from my partner to the person who is behaving in such a manner.

In case you are wondering, I would be "projecting" if I behaved as a pwBPD and then accused you of such. The concepts of transference and projection are very different.

The other concept I should help you with is that devaluation. If you reread what I wrote, you will see that I wrote devalue not demean. You may try to misquote me or twist what I wrote for your own purposes (believe me, I am ever so used to dealing with that behaviour), but I will give you the benefit of the doubt and suppose that you had done that accidentally. Now, to return to my point. Devaluation is a state of mind (and emotion) that results from the process of splitting. One does not have to overtly (or even by implication) communicate the devaluation for it still to be devaluation. So, for example, my partner may express a range of negative feelings about me in private conversations to which I will never be privy. However, this is still an expression of her devaluation of me.

With those things out of the way, I am setting my boundary to no longer engage with anyone who is here simply to throw random abuse around and display intense bouts of anger. I am here for support (give and take) and in depth and sometimes funny analysis of our shared pain. This is already far too much anger in my life.

CB,

I would suggest that you drop (for now) thoughts and talk of guitars and cars.

These might be appropriate to pick back up in a few days.

What can you do (today) to be "intentionally kind" to yourself?  Can we let this other stuff go for a couple days?

FF

CB, I'd like to say something about addressing abuse (physical, verbal, emotional, whatever) in a relationship.

This is a pure and simple boundary enforcement action that YOU take to stop yourself from being subjected to the abuse. Immediately when it starts. There is no WE anywhere in that.

Getting him to acknowledge and stop attempting abuse is a great goal. I hope it happens.

The critical part is this cold, clear, certain understanding deep down in your gut and in every part of you that you will not allow yourself to be treated that way. When you KNOW this, he will believe you.

I am speaking from personal experience here. I reached that point with the (mostly verbal/emotional) abuse from my wife. I was very consistent on enforcing boundaries. I stopped her from being able to abuse me. It worked.

But... .my wife didn't stop trying. I kept having to enforce those boundaries... .for over a year. My wife also didn't (consistently) acknowledge that she had even been doing anything abusive. When she changed, and stopped TRYING to behave abusively toward me it was an amazing shift.

That change in her was a bonus for me. I wasn't sure it would ever happen. And in a way, I wasn't very concerned--I KNEW I could deal with her attempts to behave abusively, so they weren't a big thing anymore. First I stopped letting my fear run my actions. After a while I lost my fear entirely.

You've got a little ways to go. You'll get there. This fearless living feels amazing when you get it!

Hi, CB. Unfortunately, this remains the problem:


As several of us have said -- it's your fear (part of the FOG) that gives him complete control over you. Nothing will change until you are able to enforce boundaries regardless of his threats or actions.

Spiking Grey Kitty's football here.  

Walk away, let the chips fall where they may.

FF

We aren't actually currently discussing the car issue or the guitar issue, although it did get brought up in MC last night. MC basically said that we view things differently(which is obvious), but that BPDh has lack of boundaries with his adult kids. She tried to help him see that it's okay to ask things of them(like getting your loaned stuff back), and that not doing so could be a boundary issue. I already knew he has almost zero boundaries with them, of course.

GreyKitty: Thanks for your shared experience. I didn't mean that "we" are working on the abuse issue, I meant it's at least been acknowledged by him, and it was addressed when we reconciled. Like your wife, he isn't consistent in acknowledging it, which is very common, I know. I understand that "I" have to stand strong and have a firm boundary regarding the abuse. For the last year, this boundary has been walking away, or giving him space. I've failed at times, but I'm really working hard at it. I also know that FEAR is running this show. It's his Trump card, and my achilles heel.

I do have to stop letting fear run the show. He's not able to break me with his character assasinations, and I still feel I don't lack self esteem, like you I feel sort of able to endure the crap, but I DON'T feel I should have to, nor do I want my life to continue to be like this. The fear is making it so he backs me down, and gets his own way. It's his way of getting my compliance. So far, the only boundary I've halfway managed to maintain is over the abuse, which may be why it's stopped escalating to physical violence?

You are right, I'll get there. Maybe he'll even get better as a result of MY upholding the boundary, and the help of his DBT. Any behavior change of course, is his choice. Maybe if he sees me being consistent, he'll eventually give up on the verbal attacks too?

Here's a question I think about a lot:

If I walk away every time he verbally abuses me(and that's my plan now, to be more consistent), it does trigger his thinking of "she doesn't want to be around me", which I take to be fear of abandonment?

It also seems to send him into pulling even further away, as about the ONLY time he'll communicate is when he's angry, and then he'll be distant for who knows how long. I've tried just filling those times with more "my time" stuff, but that too seems to make him feel I'm not reaching back out and trying to connect. He seems to feel all the reaching out, making amends, and keeping the marriage together is on ME. We just addressed this in MC last night.

When we got home, he did say a couple things that showed me he is fully cognizant of some of his choices. He acknowledged(without me pointing it out at all), that he makes too many decisions in our marriage without any input from me.

How do I deal with walking away from abuse, making him even more distant? GreyKitty, maybe this is a male/female difference? Your wife likely really wanted that emotional connection as most people do, so she learned to respect your boundary, but still wanted that emotional connection. BPDh doesn't seem to need or want that emotional connection even when things are "good", so how do I deal with that?

CB, I think him pulling away could be a tactic of sorts because he knows that you want that emotional connection. It's also a BPD thing that if they feel abandoned to protect themselves they will abandon you first. My husband will often walk away and expect me to come and reengage with him after he has said something abusive. I stopped reengaging a long time ago because it is a game. He wants me to prompt him for reengagement because then that means I still want him. He wants to be chased in other words, I feel like that may be what your husband is doing. Just a thought.

What if you had no idea if he was assassinating your character because you trained yourself to walk away, whenever they started.  So, sure, you would get a hint of what he was going to say but then your ears would be gone!

Let him feel abandoned!  Let him pull away,

No rescuing,


Abuse = no CB for him.

Nice stuff = CB for him.

It will take a while, he won't be happy.  His feelings are NOT your problem.

FF

There are two aspects to him giving up on the verbal attacks.

If you are consistent on not sticking around for ANY of it, he WILL realize that he isn't getting any of the payoff/benefit he is used to getting from it.

The only "maybe" in there is on your side, whether you can really be consistent about enforcement or not. (And may require a bit of planning to avoid situations where you are literally trapped like being in the car with him at the wheel.)

There is a "maybe" on his side too, and that one is that he may lose his desire/habit of trying to verbally abuse you. (That one will take time and effort for him to get there... .but as I said, my wife did get there.)

However if you and he BOTH know very deep down, that you aren't going to accept it anymore, it will (effectively) end. He will get one snarky abusive sentence out, and you will be out of his company. You will get about your day separately, and so will he. Until he gets over it, and can be with you and not pull that crap, at which point he has the option of your company again.

Hello Blue

This question really jumped out at me, and I'd like to respectfully suggest you spend time thinking about this. From what I have read of the success stories here, the partners did all seem to have some motivation in keeping the relationship.

My boyfriend is not as abusive as your husband, but there is this common element. His ability or desire to have an emotional connection seems limited. The first six months when he love bombed me, it sure felt like we had an amazing connection. I think there was reality in that, but on his side it was the connection of infatuation. He later remarked he was "high" on me. After that high wore off and I was kicked off the pedestal, I kept searching for that connection. I've realized recently that he doesn't seem to know what attachment or intimacy really feels like. He has a very avoidant attachment style.

There are people who may rage, blow up, and have other BPD symptoms, but underneath it they want the relationship. Then there are those who rage, blow up and have other BPD symptoms and quite frankly they do not have the ability or interest in the relationship. When I set boundaries in my relationship, my boyfriend explodes and breaks up with me. He sidesteps the boundary by ending the relationship.

What I hear you saying is you afraid that your husband really doesn't have the desire to be in relationship or close to you. You are afraid if you set the boundaries he will leave because what he wants most out of your marriage is to abuse you. If you turn off his ability to abuse you he has little interest in you.

I just wanted to bring that up, for something for you to think about. That must be a tremendously sad place to be, and a grieving place too. 

I feel this is exactly what he's been doing for all these years. He'll verbally abuse me, then if I walk away, he expects me to come make amends or reconnect after I've let him calm down. Not that he ever really calms down, he just stuffs the emotions so they can boil over again later. Also, reconnecting does not mean having a calm talk about the issue so it doesn't happen agian. Reconnecting for him means sex(likely painful sex), or me saying I was wrong, or doing a "repair".

My therapist is helping me work on not feeling the need to "repair" things when it's something HE should be doing. I don't mind apologizing or doing repair work if I've been at fault, but I can honestly say it's not often I have to do that. I really, really watch what I say to him. I try to leave my venting for HERE or in therapy, so that I can be calm, and not have things escalate. They still do at times, and I have to walk away, but I'm learning to walk away sooner.

GreyKitty or others: Two questions:

1) I totally agree with this, and I do think I'm getting there, albeit slowly. What do I do thought when he lobs that abusive or just plain snarky comment out there and we are out somewhere? If we are home, I can withdraw, but when we are out, that is hard to do. This happens OFTEN. We'll be out having a good time, and he gets angry, or says something just awful.

2) At this point, can I really do zero tolerance? I mean, I get walking away from the truly abusive stuff, or when I know he's about to dysregulate and be ugly, but what about when he's just mildly cutting or snarky or rude? This is almost his baseline at times, so that might be really hard to do. Should I ease in, and only walk away from the truly abusive things, and just go silent or emotionally withdraw during the "lesser" snarkly remarks?

I want to get this right, and not send him the wrong message, or be too hard core, but I also really want him to know that I'm so not okay with how he treats me at times.

CB,

Think for a few minutes about what you just posted.

You don't want to be "too hardcore" about a boundary on abuse,

So, is a little ok?

I understand the "ease in" reference.  Please make sure that whatever you pick, you hold to.  And then keep adding.

I do understand that you may not have the skills right now to walk away from all abuse. 

Pick something, gain a victory.  Add another item. 

This is a marathon and not a sprint.

FF

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. At first just be really consistent with walking away from truly abusive things he says, or abusive tones(when he mocks, or belittles me), which I think I've been doing, just maybe not as consistently as I should have been. It needs to be every time.

I think once I've gotten really good at that, and he's noticed that I have a no tolerance stance on it, it'll be easier to tackle that "one liners" or the ugly sarcastic comment. It's still ugly anger, and I consider it passive aggressive too, but I think he considers it the lesser evil to his outright verbal abuse. I think once I've dealt with the uglier stuff, and he understands I have a zero tolerance, then I can move on to that.

I agree, I just need to pick one thing, and stick to it. For now, that's being consistent in not sticking around to be his target for verbal abuse.

I'm still wondering how to deal with this though when out in public... .

Don't bat an eye, walk away.

Remember the story where I walked out of a restaurant after my wife called me a slob?

In an even tone I said "I will not be called names" (or something close to that) and walked out.  I'm sure the surround tables heard. 

You have no responsibility to protect his image. 

FF

I wonder if setting boundaries is like building a fence to keep your dog in your yard.

If you are inconsistent once, but mostly consistent, it is like leaving the gate door open.  (He can get out, and may run to try the door again and again to see if you left it open again... and he may bang harder on it hoping it will eventually give like last time... .kind of like an extinction burst.)

If you are inconsistent on a regular basis, it is like the fence having gaping holes all around that the dog can pass through.  (The dog always remembers these spots and tries to get out using the one you are least likely to notice... .cause he knows you will block him if you find the weak spot he last escaped through. ... .at least my dog did.)

Maybe consistently being inconsistent is like building a low fence that the dog enjoys having fun jumping over like a game.

Remember... .

Consistency can train a huge elephant to stay within a boundary with only a simple string around its leg. 

Just as the impact of weak boundaries is huge/having great affect on persons... .The impact of strong boundaries can be huge!

Inconsistency trains horses to take advantage and be dangerous. Inconsistency reinforces bullying behavior in humans.

Well, I don't enjoy public scenes, and then if I get in the car with him, and he's then angry, he's likely to drive crazy or have road rage. He knows his aggressive driving scares me, and he likes to do that when angry.

Formflier, if I just walk out, like you did at the restaurant, it's likely to be ME suffering an ugly consequence. I'm thinking the gender difference here plays a part. When we are out, BPDh does the driving. I'd bet with you and your wife, you as a rule do the driving? So, if I leave, the car will be locked, and when he shows up, he'll be super angry.

I'm must trying to think and plan ahead, because I can sort of predict "what's likely" based on past experiences. I can't always predict when he'll get mad, or why, but I can predict things based on past experiences(and angry driving has always been one of his).

Still say to just walk away when out in public?

Hey CB, I don't know if it's available or practical where you live, but Uber/Lyft might be a resource here. Convenient and pretty affordable.

Chump

If you are out in public and your husband becomes abusive, you absolutely do need to walk away AND get another ride home.  Call a friend, call a taxi, call somebody.  If your husband is prone to road rage as you've said, the last thing you want to do is be stuck in the car with him after you've walked away. 

 

Chump has good point about rideshare.

I driver for uber to pick up extra $$.  (oh yeah, but I haven't earned a paycheck or done any work in over a year, according to mrs FF).  I have never "ridden" uber as a rider, but I am familiar with the app.

It's all smartphone based.  No calling, just use the app.

Do NOT get in car with him when angry.

Yes, I firmly stand behind not taking abuse in public.  You are safer there, let him create and SUFFER his own consequences.  If he makes himself an ASS, that is his choice.  YOU walk away.

Yes, I try to drive most of the time.  I have pulled over, taken the keys and WALKED AWAY several times.  "I'll be back in 10 minutes, hopefully we can talk properly when I get back, "

Yes I have done that with kids in the car.

Once or twice I have ridden with her driving and her mad, that sucked.  I won't do it again. 

When tensions are up, I create situations/excuses to meet places so we each are driving.  When I walked out after the slob thing, I got in truck and drove away.  She had her own car. 

Yes, I did think about that ahead of time and was intentional about setting that up.  I was more relaxed that way and felt more confident enforcing my boundary.  Keys were in my pocket, so I stood and walked out.

FF

Sometimes you have to make a tough choice.

First off, being in a car when he is driving puts you very much under his control. If you are driving and he starts to get abusive, you can pull over and stop and tell him that this is unacceptable.

If he doesn't stop, you can simply get out of the car and leave.

(Please pre-plan with a safe friend or family supporter to be able to pick you up in the middle of nowhere on short notice, and have your cellphone at the ready)

If he *KNOWS* he has you trapped in the car, he will take advantage of it. Maybe not every time, but sooner or later.

If he "always" drives places when you are together, you may have to stop going with him. You can go separately in another car.

You may simply have to tell him "I won't drive with you." He can fuss, but he doesn't have the right to force you into the car.

This kind of thing is confrontational. It has a cost to you. It will keep you from doing things, and make your husband upset. Sometimes protecting yourself is expensive, but worth it.

Agree 100% with FF and GreyKitty. The first time it happens, walk away. If you have to get a cab, an Uber, a lift from a friend, a hotel room ... .do it. Yes, it costs money, but that money is punishing him for his bad behavior.

After that, refuse to ride in a car with him. Take separate vehicles. Again, costs money ... .but it's HIS cost.

Sorry came late to the thread, been away.

CB be prepared for extinction bursts, and continuations of this behaviour once you are home if you decide to enforce this boundary.

Be prepared to walk away, drive away, stay elsewhere if your h continues to dysregulate once you are inside the house.

It may take many times for you to repeat these actions, and I mean many times for your h to get the message. That you will not tolerate abusive behaviour.

It does work, but it is not a quick fix and in my experience with my h his behaviour increased, his threats increased, every time I enforced my boundary.

Did the abuse stop, did the threats to divorce me stop, did his intimidating behaviour stop? Yes they did, but it took a while and it made me sick to my stomach when I first started to address the abuse.

I think that driving separately when I think things might go badly is a good option. The thing is, he's so erratic right now, I'll think he's "fine" that day, then he'll go off because I want to buy a snow shovel. It's just so out of the blue. I refused to argue with him, so getting back in the car with him was fine that time, but other times he has driven while angry, and he drives very aggressively, and it scares me.

I can always drive myself, but I just think it's going to be intensely triggering for him if I have to get to that point. We don't have Ubers here, just cabs, which I could do if I had to. I know if I just suggest we drive separately, he's going to complain about the gas cost.

In the end though, I have to worry more about ME, and having this boundary around abuse, than about him getting even more mad. Yeah, he'll be mad, but that's always his choice. He's had so many people tell him that "actions have consequences" that he gets sick of hearing it, but he doesn't think HE should live by those rules everyone else follows.

Please read your post again,

Do you see how a lot of it can be about him and his feelings, needs, issues?

Where is CB in all this?

What's more important, his comfort with gas cost?  or CB's safety/fear of aggressive driving?

FF

By taking care of yourself when that happens.

I agree with last poster (FF)... .you get lost in this. The focus shifts to him.  Your focus continues to move toward an external locus of control, outside yourself.  

Why not just keep the focus on yourself and your own self soothing and your own boundaries and your own choices?  

When you take care of yourself well, you stop playing the "what about how the other person reacts?" game.  You stop venting so much about 'other' and start becoming curious about yourself.  And you grow to accept that there are consequences to having either good boundaries or bad boundaries.  There are always consequences either way.

We have no real control over someone else.

There are no prefect unions.  Maybe in his natural state, he's just not a person who is all that comfy with close connection bottom line... .who knows?  There is NOTHING you can do to alter of fix him anyway.  Your NOT having good boundaries isn't fixing anything for him or for yourself.  At best, it buys you more time in an abusive dynamic by selling out a little part of your soul for the  temporary relief and avoidance of tension that comes with identifying and keeping a boundary and taking care of your SELF.  Having boundaries does not mean you won't be uncomfortable.  You will be uncomfortable.  Not having boundaries hurts, too.  There is no easy path without discomfort. But having boundaries gives you life free of chronic abusive dynamics and ongoing harm. The price we pay is to deal with discomfort of taking care of ourselves which is what a boundary is. It is uncomfortable to say no, to leave, to not comply.  It always will be.  

When you don't have boundaries, there are consequences.  Grave ones.  Like accepting abuse. Like self abandonment.

When you do have boundaries there are also consequences.

In the end it's better for everyone to HAVE boundaries but there are real consequences for all well-boundaried, emotionally healthy individuals.  For example, a really well-boundaried emotionally healthy person may not give themselves permission to engage in a relationship like the one you are engaging in right now. they may have required of themselves to leave a long time ago.  So, they don't get to do what you are choosing to do right now,  and, I'm sure they are missing out on some of the  "good" things that you do feel you are getting by staying so far so long.   There are consequences, some of them discomforting, to almost all choices we make. There is no getting around it.  You will never find a path with no discomfort.  But with boundaries, you will be safer and you have a better chance at having  truly mutual relationships that are healthy enough.  That's the bottom line. Without good boundaries, you can't really have a truly mutual relationship.  It's a choice.

Stop the focus on him, and turn it back to self. Your growth, your boundaries around your 'self' is where the magic is.  It does not rest with him or with a focus on him.  You are moving away from self into FOG when the focus is on him.