BPDFamily.com

So yesterday I made a comment that facetime did not provide security for the relationship and this morning he brought it up. So I called him as I did not want to deal with this later. After we hung up the phone he texted me back even though we had just agreed not to talk about it so I facetimed him, which I hadn't done in weeks. Anyways long story short he ended up hanging up on him so since I can't afford to put my phone in do not disturb mode I blocked him. I checked and indeed he had called me. I checked my messages and he sent me these:


So he is accusing me of avoiding and ignoring him even though he hung up on me.

Another interesting thing happened, I just got off the phone with my probate attorney, and he was filing papers with the court. I met with my attorney exactly one week ago. So of course this made the wheels in my head start turning. Its been 3.5 years and I have yet to see a divorce case filed. Now maybe probate is a lot simpler then divorce, which would be a question for the legal board. However I have heard that probate law is one of the most difficult. At any rate my sympathy for my partner is beginning to drop. That coupled with the fact that my sober male friends are telling me I don't need that, meaning waiting on someone to get a divorce, that I deserve better, that I should find a local boyfriend, the odds aren't really stacking in his favor right now.

That is a passive and backhanded way to say you are reconsidering your relationship with him.

Do you want to evaluate that in a more direct and active way?

Do you know what it would take for you to choose to end your relationship with him?

I am not happy with the situation, I was not able to reduce the conflict. I actually apologized for the things I said to him after he hung up on me as I was not able to maintain good boundaries. I was thinking about what you said about reducing conflict. Yesterday I failed, today there is no conflict with my partner but I did have to block my ex and my father as they were both being abusive as well. I know there will always be another opportunity to practice.

 

Unicorn,

I spend time reading your posts every few weeks.  Trying to get a broader picture of what is going on. 

To me, this "feels" like the same kind of detail that was being focused on many months ago.

Have you been able to take space?  Space would be defined as a couple of weeks of NC, where you figure out what you want.  Perhaps go out on a "local" friendly date or two with an available man.  I saw some posts about that recently.

I'm just curious, from a big picture point of view, where your r/s has gone in the past few months.

FF

These are great questions. Thank you Grey Kitty. Good luck unicorn2014.

FF if I were to do that I would be ending the relationship and I'm not ready to do that yet. I also have other far more important things to do then dating another man. I need to get my career back on track first. He said his lawyer was going to file a motion to compel yesterday or Monday so I'm waiting to see if that happens. That will give me a case number at which point I will feel better about committing.

I've always said that I will walk away from the relationship if I've gotten my work life in order and nothing has changed on his end. This was an engagement, not a boyfriend/girlfriend or dating type relationship, until I found out his divorce hadn't been filed. Now I'm waiting for his lawyer to file a motion to compel.

At this point I'm more interested in being able to take space for a day if he hangs up on me.

I'm definitely not ready to date someone else. I've been in a r/s with this man for 4 years. I'm definitely not ready to start casually dating. I also have a teenage daughter so I'm not going to leave her at home alone while I go out on a date. She knows I was serious about this man and for her to see me leave him and then just casually start dating someone else would be modeling bad behavior. Regardless of his sins and transgressions I did treat it like a serious relationship and I would have to grieve if I ended it.

I think you should start a new thread about this r/s and the kind of behavior it is modeling to your daughter.

This is very important concept, one that deserves it's own space.  Not mixed in with minutiae  of who said what and what mode of communication was used.

FF

Actually that's a coping board subject as I'm beginning to understand what it's like to love a difficult father, in this case I'm referring to me loving my father and she living her father . My daughter also  considers calls  my fiancé her stepdad, and I'm not ready to write about that yet. I'm still healing from my relationship with my own dad. However I will consider how I am modeling conflict resolution for my daughter in this relationship and write about that .

Unicorn,

I think "stepping back to look at the big picture" is in order.

This is a bit of a broad brush comment.  

Many of your posts here seem to focus on minutiae.  ie.  "I'll wait for him to hang up 3 times on me on the phone before cancelling our facetime that is scheduled in 38 minutes and 25 seconds.  However, I will still listen to voicemails that he leaves and analyze the content of those voicemails for the next 3 days."

This hyper-focus on minutiae, IMO, seems to be used to avoid bigger, very hard questions.

I think that "evaluating how you model conflict resolution" to your daughter is "minutiae" when, perhaps, the big question is how does unicorn model healthy relationships to men.  Especially now that she is a teenager and only has a few more years to "watch the modelling".

My last take at presenting an analogy.  It seems as if you are approaching a one way street, and making a conscious decision to look the wrong way, before crossing the street.  Sure, there may have been issues (conflict resolution) in the direction that you looked, but that was a tiny Prius that had already passed you by.

The semi-truck with no brakes was coming from the other direction.

Please look the other way, consider the big picture, take space and time away from your current r/s (nothing permanent) to be intentional about considering the big things that you see.

FF

I'm not quite sure I understand that motivation on your part... .However, I see how you need to pick a deadline/criteria for when you evaluate your r/s with your partner; perhaps this one is as good as any other.

What do you have to do to get your work life in order? How long do you think it will take?



Yes, this is a four-year relationship, a very significant part of your life, and ending it will be significant and real, and hurt you a great deal. Endings always hurt, no matter whether you or he end it, and no matter how good or bad the reason for the ending is. 

Actually for me the reactivity to my partner is the bigger picture. I'm far less reactive to my ex and my dad. Yesterday I had to block them both and they're still blocked. For me if I can take a time out for a day after my partner hung up on me is a big deal. I haven't been able to do that yet. For me telling him that we have yet to build a relationship yet as all of it as taken place on my turf is a big deal. Asserting myself with my partner is a big deal, for me.

Gk I have to be rehabilitated to go back to work, I have a disability. That is my first priority not dating new men. I'm waiting until I can get my daughter stable before I attempt to open another case with the DOR. I had to close my case last month due to parenting responsibilities.

I believe that if the next time my partner hangs up on me I can block him for the rest of the day it will reset our relationship. There is nobody local I am interested in dating. I have male friends.

Hello Unicorn,

I like Formflier I've been reading your post for awhile now and would agree with him that perhaps a "stepping back to look at the big picture is in order".  As you said, you've been on these boards for years ... .28 Dec, 2013 as a matter of fact.  

You've been waiting for him to file a divorce for 3.5 plus years and yet he continues to delay "filing" saying one thing or another.  And in the last 48 hours he's giving yet another reason he has NOT filed for divorce. Lawyer is filing a "compel" motion? Compel to do what?  I'm not a legal eagle, I have been divorced twice & I'm not sure what filing a "compel" order will do in references to being served divorce papers? As soon as you file, the spouse gets served paperwork ... .regardless if they want to be served or not and by a local law enforcement if needed.  You said, "At any rate my sympathy for my partner is beginning to drop."  Beginning after 3.5 yrs of waiting?  I don't know where you live in the world ... .but a simple filing is just that ... .a filing.  Once you file, then the real battle begins with dividing of community property, bank accounts, spousal support, retirement accounts, splitting child custody and the list goes on. This process depending on where you live can take 6 weeks with NO contesting or over a year with minimal contesting ... .or longer if the other spouse is wanting to fight over assets, support, & child custody.  And you're just NOW beginning to drop the support?

As Formflier points out, "I'll wait for him to hang up 3 times on me on the phone before cancelling our facetime that is scheduled in 38 minutes and 25 seconds.  However, I will still listen to voicemails that he leaves and analyze the content of those voicemails for the next 3 days."  And he points out, "This hyper-focus on minutiae, IMO, seems to be used to avoid bigger, very hard questions."  

Grey Kitty pointed out, "However, I see how you need to pick a deadline/criteria for when you evaluate your r/s with your partner"

And Grey Kitty makes a interesting statement here ... ."Yes, this is a four-year relationship, a very significant part of your life, and ending it will be significant and real, and hurt you a great deal. Endings always hurt, no matter whether you or he end it, and no matter how good or bad the reason for the ending is."

You said, "I am not happy with the situation, I was not able to reduce the conflict".  This IMHO is a very crystal clear hint at some behavior of a Codependent.


This site has sited the following in reference to codependent or codependency ... .

Sandra C. Anderson, Ph.D., Emerita Professor at Portland State University, describes "codependency" as a pattern of painful dependence on compulsive behaviors and on approval from others in an attempt to find safety, self-worth, and identity.

Shawn Meghan Burn, Ph.D., professor of psychology at the California Polytechnic State University, says “Codependent relationships are a specific type of dysfunctional helping relationship." Burn defines a codependent relationships as a dysfunctional helping relationship where one person supports or enables the other person’s addiction, poor mental health, immaturity, irresponsibility, or under-achievement.

People with a predisposition to be a codependent enabler often find themselves in relationships where their primary role is that of rescuer, supporter, and confidante. These helper types are often dependent on the other person's poor functioning to satisfy their own emotional needs.-"Codependent relationships signify a degree of unhealthy clinginess, where one person doesn't have self-sufficiency or autonomy," says Scott Metzler, PhD, psychology division chief at Albert Einstein College of Medicine.

Codependent Relationships are One-sided

Tina Tessina, PhD, LMFT says, "It's kind of a weird term [codependent], and it doesn't sound like it means a one-sided relationship, but often that's what it becomes. The codependent enabler often finds themselves trying to make their relationship work with someone else who's not."

When the relationship starts breaking down,  the codependent enabler will sacrifice their own emotional needs in order to keep the relationship going. At this point, he or she starts to lose themselves.  The mantra of a typical enabler is, "I do everything for her in the relationship.  It's not because of me that we have problems."

Behavior of Codependent Enablers ... .

Focused on others Codependents tend to deny their own feelings and needs.

Excessively compliant  A codependent can become excessively compliant and yielding to their partner all the way to the point of losing touch with what they need, want, like, and prefer.  This often results in frustration, denial of negative feelings, stress and even depression.

Self-sacrificing  A codependent enabler focuses on the needs of their partner to the point that they can neglect their own needs.

Problems with openness and intimacy  Problems with openness and intimacy  Enablers often have trouble when it comes to communicating their thoughts, feelings and needs in an intimate relationship. Enablers may be afraid to be truthful, because they don’t want to upset someone else.

Codependency is Recoverable, Denial is Not

The greatest problem people face in getting help for codependency is a lack of self-awareness; simply not seeing their role in the relationship dysfunction. Codependents instinctually know that the relationship is unhealthy but they are convinced that the problem lies with the other person or that the problem is situational. They keep complaining about and trying to fix the other person.

The concept of codependency provides a useful framework for examining how healthy our interactions are in relationships with others.  Becoming aware of your codependent traits is the first, and most important step in dealing with them.  With awareness comes the opportunity for change.  The fact is that codependency is learned - and as such, it can be unlearned.      

******************

Unicorn ... .maybe it's just me ... .but in following your post for some time I do see signs of codependency behavior and this string is no different.  You're certainly have been & continue to avoid conflict by confronting s/o on several issues ... .his ongoing excuses of not filling for divorce one of them.

Regardless of his behavior, excuses for everything ... .you seem to expressly compliant as the definition points out on some rather important issues to you. And as defined, results in frustration, denial of negative feelings, stress. In your posts including this one, you exhibit denial of negative feelings, and your certainly frustrated and stressed out about this 3.5 year waiting and waiting.

It appears that you are indeed having trouble expressing how your truly feel to him, your thoughts, true feelings which in turn leads to yet more self sacrificing on your part in order to maintain the contact focusing again on him & his needs instead of YOU and YOUR needs, wants & desires.  It appears that you want to avoid conflict or upsetting him ... .codependent behavior.

I can say this because like many on this site, I too am a "recovering codependent". Once I became self aware of my codependent behavior from my therapist I took steps to change and become my own self. I no longer depend on others to make me happy ... .or find self worth in the success or love of another. I am in a good place ... .years of codependency behavior is hard to change ... .but it can be over come with being self aware and taking a positive active role in your own recovery with the assistance of a good therapist.

I'm not judging ... .I just put it out there for something to think about ... .

JQ

Thank you JQ, the motion to compel is because his wife is not cooperating with the financial affidavit which is required to file. This is his second filing. The first one didn't make it into the legal system.

I'm well aware of codependency, I worked the 12 steps of CODA as a teenager.

To me, how I reacted to him hanging up on me is important.

Perhaps I should back up and say how we got to the point where he hung up on me.

I had made a comment that he heard as facetime not providing security for the relationship, and he texted me about it, so I called him about it rather then text him about it. That was most likely my first mistake. I should have ignored his text comment.

--------

It is usually text comments that get me going so I think in the future if he makes a text comment that gets me going I'm going to try harder not to react.


It was actually my reaction to his text that started the problem. I didn't have to respond to it at all, I could have ignored it.

Unicorn ... .what he's reporting about the divorce doesn't make any sense.  Any party can initiate a divorce without cooperation from the other party.  There is no motion to compel until there is a proceeding initiated by a divorce petition.  As I keep emphasizing, family law differs state to state ... .but I don't think there's any way you are getting the straight scoop here.  I'm sorry.

Assuming I'm right -- what would be the significance of that to you? Are you willing to float down this river indefinitely? This guy is not getting divorced.

Maybe this works for you.  If so, I think it would be good to try to weed out the resentment that sometimes flares up from the fact that he is unavailable for a normal relationship.

If you want a normal relationship -- he isn't taking the steps required to achieve that.

Patient and clear, some states require both parties to submit a financial affidavit before filing, hence the reason for the motion to compel. I discussed this on the legal board where I found out it was true.

Unicorn, Group

I would have to agree here with Patientandclear in that what he's telling you about what is REQUIRED before his spouse can be SERVED with divorce papers isn't making sense here. As P&C states there is no motion to compel anyone to submit any financial disclosure of any type to anyone before serving divorce paperwork.  If I'm married to P&C and I want the divorce, why would she comply to any request from any lawyer to submit a financial disclosure form if no other paperwork "i.e. served divorce summons"? 

I "recently" went through my 2nd divorce initiated by her. I was SERVED my divorce paperwork by an officer of the court at the place I was staying, we were separated, "living in two different places. At which point I had to retain a lawyer to protect myself both legally & financially. It was several months & a few thousand dollars later that I received from MY lawyer a request to submit MY financial disclosure of ALL property, assets & monies in my possession, furniture, bank accounts, cars. At the same time I received HER COMPLETED financial disclosure listing the same on her end.

As P&C points out, family law requirements differ from state to state, but are essentially have the same basic laws. I wanted you to get the most correct information as possible here from the group, so I did some research. In the mean time, next time you talk to your probate lawyer I would ask him which comes first, the financial disclosure form or being served the divorce papers?

In Washington state, divorce is formally known as "dissolution of marriage." Rather than "plaintiff" and "defendant," the parties in a Washington divorce are called "petitioner" (the spouse asking for the divorce or in this case your BPDbf) and respondent (the spouse that responds to the request for divorce or your BPDbf wife).

Washington is an exclusively no-fault state. The only permissible "ground" or reason for divorce is that the marriage is "irretrievably broken." Unlike other states, which allow fault-based divorce complaints, Washington does not permit divorcing couples to assign blame or get into all the reasons why the marriage broke down. Under Washington law, it's only necessary for one party to believe the marriage can't be saved. Washington like other state courts will still grant the divorce, even if the other spouse protests.

In the state of Washington, the MAIN or first document  is the document to Petition for Dissolution of Marriage. Similar to a divorce complaint in other states, the petition outlines how you would like property divided, how much spousal support you wish to receive, how debts should be assigned, your proposed custody plan for any minor children, and any other important issues.

red-flag  This is the important discrepancy in your BPDbf story. BETWEEN the INITIAL filing AND the resolution of all issues, Washington law requires the parties to make a complete disclosure of all income, assets, and debts. Before the court will grant a final decree of dissolution, both spouses must submit a Financial Declaration. This document is usually exchanged as early as possible to facilitate potential settlement.  This form is NOT required to be submitted by the soon to be ex-wife so that the soon to be ex-husband can file for divorce. 

In this example this is how Washington state does it and I know from personal experience how 2 other states do it. I also know from my time in the military and moving to several other states or Common Wealths like Virginia the procedure is the same. Except in the Common Wealth of Virginia they require one spouse to live outside the home for 12 months before granting the divorce. I have 4 personal friends that lived this nightmare situation. His NOW ex-wife would move into the house while he was away on detachments and be able to prove it in the courts. So when he would come home & find her living in THE HOUSE, his 12 month clock would start all over again.  It finally took him nearly 8 years to get a divorce.

In the state of Florida where I know more then one friend who has divorced, the state of Florida requires you to turn over a completed and signed financial affidavit to your spouse WITHIN 45 days of the date your petition for dissolution of marriage is served. You can get a blank financial affidavit from your circuit court clerk’s office. The types of information and documents you can expect to turn over include:income, assets, debts,  tax returns, bank statements,  credit card statements, personal financial statements, and any other documentation containing financial information that your spouse or the court should know before the divorce.  I pulled this from a site that can tell you the particulars of your respective state or Common Wealth. www.divorcenet.com/resources/filing-for-divorce/florida.htm   /   www.divorcenet.com

You have been on these boards now for 3 1/2 years expressing frustration, stress, etc. and having been through what you are going through I know it is the hardest thing you've ever had to face. I only put this information out to you & others that might learn from it so that they can make the hard & difficult choices they need to based on sound facts & reliable resources.  We as the group feel for you & what you've been through and are still going through. But given this information I would have to agree with P&C when they said, "Are you willing to float down this river indefinitely? This guy is not getting divorced.Maybe this works for you.  If so, I think it would be good to try to weed out the resentment that sometimes flares up from the fact that he is unavailable for a normal relationship."

We all know from our reading & therapy sessions that BPD's exhibit behavior of EXTREME ABANDONMENT fears and will do what they need to hang on to their codependent relationship. We know they will lie, cheat, manipulate, in order to maintain control over a particular relationship and only when the codependent starts to rebel & stand up for her or himself will the BPD react in rages, temper tantrums and lash out in other ways. 

To put things in perspective ... .here's what has happened in the 3 years you've been waiting for your BPDbf to get a divorce.

The Boston Marathon bombing and the Cleveland kidnapping of 3 women that captivated the world. People also eagerly awaited the verdicts from the controversial George Zimmerman and Jodi Arias trials. Former South African president and leader of the anti-apartheid movement Nelson Mandela died. Actor Paul Walker "Fast & Furious fame" was killed in a car crash. The 2014 Winter Olympics in Russia, Movies such as Transcendence, Godzilla, The Hunger Games Pt1, Divergent, 12 Years a Slave, Wolf of Wall Street, Gravity, Hunger Games Catching Fire, Despicable Me 2, and more have come and gone. It'll be 2 years in July since the Malaysian Airlines flight went down. Robin Williams has been gone almost 2 years.  The point is a lot has happened in the world as you waited for your BPDbf to even file for a divorce.

As P&C stated, Maybe this works for you ... .

I don't believe anyone here is judging anyone ... .the Group is looking at the situation in non-bias ways & attempting to give you factual based information so that you can make sound choices & decisions.  At the end of the day Unicorn, you're the one that has to live your life. We can't and won't tell you how to live it ... .or the choices to make. We as a group will hold out a hand when you stumble and help you up. YOU can continue down your path your currently walking, YOU can choose the path to the right & see where that leads you or YOU can sit back down where you're at and do nothing the choice has been AND will always be YOURS to make.

I truly wish you the strength you need to make the choices that are best for you ... .and the peace you seek to live a much better life.

JQ

Unicorn,

I've been reading your posts for a long time. I have to agree with others that your BF is stringing you along and feeding you a line of BS. It's the "dog ate the homework" excuse and now he's cloaking it in legal terminology that has nothing to do with the reality of his situation. Simply put, he hasn't filed the divorce paperwork and is unlikely to do so for whatever reason--but he's not admitting the truth.

He keeps appeasing you for a time with one excuse after another. Like others have said, ask your attorney for a definitive answer.

Thank you everyone this is his second time filing which is why he's already at this stage. I could just call up his divorce attorney but I've been advised by the group not to.

This post was not about the divorce.

It was about how I reacted to him hanging up on me.

Perhaps the group can rethink whether or not I should ask his lawyer what the hold up is? Or, I could contact his wife directly, since the group thinks he is lying to me. I have the names and numbers of his attorney and his wife.

The other part of this was about it being long distance.

Unicorn,

Don't contact his lawyer or his wife ... .trust me ... .nothing good could ever come from that.  I believe what the group was saying to you is that YOU already had a Probate Attorney and have spoken to them within the week for other issues. THEY should be able to give you any guidance that has substance to part of the conversation relative to your state family laws.

In reference to how you reacted to his hanging up on you ... .I would again echo what others have said here. "stepping back to look at the big picture is in order".  You've already told the group that "I worked the 12 steps of CODA as a teenager" I don't know how old you are now or how long its been since you've done your 12 step program ... .but I would encourage you to seek out professional assistance in the way of a really good therapist with knowledge of BPD so that they can again help navigate you on your journey with thoughts, feelings & emotions. We all know that being a "recovering codependent" is a work in progress ... .we all need constant "training, reminding, education" on our behaviors of codependentcy. They can also provide professional guidance on the very question you ask among the others you ask in your posts.

J

Thanks IQ I've had a lot of therapy since I was a teenager including a few couple sessions with my partner and a PSY.D. My partner does not live in my state. I already discussed the divorce laws in his state on the legal board and both parties have to provide a financial affidavit before filing.

Premature post, I'm on my phone.

I am currently in 3 12 step programs and I'm on my in 10th step in ACA . I have a therapist I have to pay out of pocket so I haven't seen her in a month or two due to financial difficulties. I will be seeing her in a couple of weeks.

It sounds like you're saying at this point the board can not help me with this particular issue of how I react when I'm hung up on by my s/o.

I appreciate this part, as my partner did hang up on me when I said I didn't want to talk about FaceTime anymore. I don't enjoy FaceTime with him anymore. It's too distracting.

To be real honest... .

I have felt something in your story that I relate to, and have followed a bit hoping you can find a way to some peace no matter what the direction of your relationship.

I have refrained from posting lately because I cannot see what more to say or offer.

It seems like you are stuck on "stop the bleeding" as you are still struggling with nit being reactive.

You also seem stuck on "take a step backward."  Yes, you did excellent to take some steps back in not having him visit and doing less facetime and such.  However, as long as there is still bleeding, then the steps back need to continue until the conflict is consistently minimal and more manageable.

I have refrained from commenting as I feel I almost sound like a nag to repeat the same familiar words many here have been saying... .

Work on being successgpful at NOT Reacting.

Day to day: Back away BEFORE the interaction gets intense.

Ideally for the longevity of the relationship: therapeutic separation... .Back away and take space from all interactions... .UNTIL you feel like you can feel your own thoughts and decide on things without fear of his reaction driving your decision making.

The advice you continue to get from most people... .seems mostly the same.

How can we help?

I mean this sincerely... .how?

I think we are willing.

That is what I need help with, the day to day backing away. I'm not afraid of his reactions, im challenged by my own. He goes ballistic when I say I don't want to talk about something anymore and accuses me of ending the conversation .

I can already feel my own thoughts.

I will write more later. Thank you for this post.

Sometimes it feels like... .

There is a bar fight... .

I want to jump in the middle and negotiate with the two men brawling to end the conflict.

(This is completely hypothetical)

I ask for advice... .

How do I help these two men see that fighting isn't the best course?

How do I jump in and intervene so the fight stops?

The answer my friend may tell me:

DON'T jump into the middle of two men fighting in a bar!  That is NOT how to help the men!  You can get hurt!

Me:

But they are fighting, I want them to stop.  I am ok jumping in the middle to help them see that their fighting hurts me.  I am ok jumping in if it helps the fighting stop.  I am nit ready to just sit there and enjoy my fries while they fight, it bothers me.  It bothers me too much to leave the bar and eat elsewhere to, so please help me.  What can I do when I jump in the middle to get the fighting to stop?

My friend:

Dear... .just don't jump in the middle of two men fighting!  Ignore it, walk away, get distance... .not closer!

... .

It feels to me that you are compelled when you experience conflict... .

That you just want to jump in it to 'fix' it.

While I believe that you are well intentioned... .

The best and only thing to do to stop the conflict, stop the bleeding... . 

Is to NOT react.

Step back.

Step back even before things escalate.

... .

I think it is easier to relate to... .

The bar climate starts to change.  

The air feels tense.

The people then raise voices as arguing ensues.

When in public, it is often easier to feel the climate change.

Many people would know to step out of that bar as they feel the climate changing.

Harder to apply when the climate changing is one we are in and directly involved with a person we love and don't want to lose connection with.

(Trying to post... .see you posted... .but didn't read... .going to post anyway)

|iiii great!

Sometimes we can get so caught up in our interactions that it can be hard to stay in tune to our own minds and what our experience is.  It is great that you are aware of your thoughts.

So another thing... .

Are you able to stay aware of your feelings?  Or is this harder?

I think sorting out thoughts, especially in these types of relationships... .is immensely confusing.

I am not sure... .

Are you really not afraid of his reactions?  If you want to take a therapeutic separation, and he says no, if you do that, this relationship is over... .Are you ok and secure to face that statement and what it means?

This is important because I am realizing... .By interacting on these boards... . That when we are feeling fear to preserve the relationship at any cost, it impairs our usual thought process and decision making.  

This type of fear actually can impair the whole process of stopping the bleeding and taking a step back... .to the point we are pretty much at a deadlock until resolution of fear.

I want to share some of my recent experiences. Recent meaning the last 6 months.

The reason I gave up with my boyfriend is because I can't cope right now with his behavior.

Notice I said "right now". I know I still love him, despite the damage. I know a part of me feels the urge to re-establish contact. It's bad idea for the forseeable future. I am in no state to handle the situation, so we are having time apart because it's what I need. He is on his own. If it's over forever as a result, then sadly, it is what it is.

We had a huge fight a couple of weeks ago, with me being triangulated against 2 other women, combined with a lot of disrespect, passive aggressive behavior from him, silent treatment, and me being cornered and harrassed. I got sucked into it and I blew apart like a bomb and wrote a lot of angry reactive stuff to all of them. Cussing at them, unloading my anger, frustration and hurt.

It wasn't pretty, any of it, and in true BPD fashion, my ex has been retaliating by running a smear campaign and stepping up the provocative and hurtful behavior in my face. It is true to say I completely lost my composure over it all and there has been more conflict as a result.

What I learned the last 6 months, and what I already know, is that learning to recognize the point at which you have to disengage and take that step back, is of paramount importance in maintaining a civil situation so that you can continue working towards a healthier relationship.

I lost that capacity completely in the heat of the moment. There was a build up to it that I saw. In myself, in him. I had actually integrated enough of the idea of disengagement to tell myself, Danielle, don't go there! Walk away. But I thought I could handle what he was doing and I didn't listen to my instinct. So I stayed in the situation with horrible results.

So I ask myself why would I do this. The urge to fix. It's co dependent. Unicorn there is a hook. I have a hook. You have a hook. What keeps you there so the slide into conflict ends up happening.

I had a lot of success when I was able to keep in mind that I don't have to explain anything to anyone. I don't have to explain to my boyfriend why I went quiet or walked away from skype. Common courtesy typically compelled me to say, I need to go do some chores, will talk to you later! Or some such neutral thing.

The key has always been the neutrality of my response, as opposed to the the bit of hurtfulness of saying I am done talking to you because you are being disrespectful to me and I don't put up with that.

I really think that a ton of the conflict you are having with your guy is being triggered by how you are speaking to him, rather than what you are trying to communicate.

You are a straight shooter. I think that open honesty is part of your integrity and how you tend to interact with the world in general. On one hand a person can say, hey I am not being dishonest or doing anything wrong! You are not doing anything wrong. Ok? With many people though, they can't deal with a person who is that honest. They find it agressive, or hurtful, or it triggers off a defensive reaction.

I think most of us here can see that you have a really strong value about being an honorable person with integrity. It's an awesome character trait.

So two things I am saying here. The first is you don't have to tell anyone why you don't want to talk anymore. You don't have to say you don't want to talk. You can achieve not talking by kindly excusing yourself. "I need to go and take care of some things".  Or whatever.

It's honest and straightforward because you really probably DO have other things you would rather be doing than talking to someone who you are upset with.

The second thing is your directness can come across as harsh and agressive. If you can avoid that, you will probably have a ton more success in keeping things calm.

You already said that you are very upset with your partner. You feel contempt for him due to his actions. You have a right to be upset. It's coming through loud and clear to him and he is disregulating because of his BPD.

Avoiding getting into a bad situation is much easier than dealing with it once it has been set off. Maybe you can soften your communication to your partner and get better results, without feeling like you are not being true to your self?

Are you able to think of ways in advance to do that?

Thank you ladies, I think right now I'm really frustrated because I actually need my partner to be here physically to help me with my daughter and he's not. Long distance step parenting doesn't really work. I agree that I am  stuck on take a step back. This man said he could do something for me that he still hasn't been able to deliver on. That is what I am most frustrated about however if there was a local man that was available to be my daughter's stepdad I would have picked him already. The reason I picked my partner is that he was willing to be my daughter's stepdad from the beginning and I didn't have time to beat around the bush and date until I decided he was the right one. I am very honest as you say and I was very upfront from the beginning, I have a daughter, we are a package.

As I am currently experiencing  conflict around co-parenting and coping issues I'm going to also be posting about those, however I really appreciate you keeping the focus on my challenge to take a step backward. I also appreciate what was said about I don't need to give an explanation for why I don't want to talk about something anymore. I think I simply said I don't want to talk about that anymore and then not only did I get hung up on, then he called me back over and over again and expected me to pick up. When I pointed out to him that he was the one who hung up on me he said I ended the conversation by saying I didn't want to talk about it anymore.

I appreciate you helping me with the day to day issues because that is where I get stuck. I was not happy with my last performance when he hung up on me and that's why I came to the board for help.

To me it is important if it happens again that I keep him blocked for a day. I was able to do that with my father and my ex when they dysregulated on me. Its a whole different story with my partner. My father and my ex are more narcissistic then borderline so they don't go as ballistic when I block them. I didn't tell my ex I blocked him but he was mad at me that I didn't accept his apology for swearing at me. I need to post about that on the co-parenting board.

I'm a bit distracted right now with my own legal issue (probate) as well as parenting issues so I apologize ahead of time if my post is disjointed or convoluted.

The bottom line is I am very frustrated with my partner for promising something he couldn't deliver on however I also believe that he bit off far more then he could chew with his divorce and relocation. I feel in a way like he lied to me about how easy it was going to be. If he had simply said, hey I have a really complicated marriage (business, intellectual property rights, assets) so its going to take a long time to divorce this woman but if you are willing to wait it out I want to fully commit to you and your daughter when I am through with this, that would have created a whole different relationship. When he says things like "being in a relationship with you is a privilege" "we are in an intimate relationship" , well, you know how I feel about those things. So that's why taking a step backward is important, I know, and I am. Those statements from him are my cue to take a step backward.

I know some people on the board feel like I am focusing on the small details but those small details are the actual relationship. Those small details are the points of conflict from which I can grow. Getting hung up on is one thing, being told its a privilege to be in a relationship with me, I am the love of his life, we are in an intimate relationship are other things. Those are all cues to take a step backward, like I just said.  *)

Do you really think he will? 

The vibe I am getting from people on this board is most don't see him delivering.

Here is the thing, let's say in another few years he actually gets a divorce.  Then what? the BPD drama/issues will shift to when he moves or other details.

To be clear, I am seeing you being strung along for several years here.  One excuse after another. 

What if you directed the energy you put into this r/s into being a parent for your daughter?

FF

There is something about this bit that I really like.  It communicates that you are clear in what it is that you want.

You want:

The person you love to have enough love and respect for you that he is willing to be completely honest with you and withold no part of the truth, so that you have the free will to love him in a most genuine sense.

By demonstrating lack of full transparency, he in effect, disallowed you to have enough information that you needed in formulating your reality and impression of him, and the situation that you were embarking upon.

He permitted you to proceed in a way towards him... .with partial awareness of things... .all while he held info that would have been useful for you to be a person of 'free will' with maximum awareness in choosing him/the relationship.  

For him to deny that he had an advantage over you of having more knowlege, well... .is what he is trying to do regularly... .and quite downright insulting to your intelligence.

That was a lot of 'guesses' on my part... .I realize this.

I am emphasizing this bit of your paragraph because it stood out to me.

When I read it... .I felt: This sounds like her truth... .and all she really wanted.  It is so reasonable, yet seems to get disregarded every step farther and ignored.

Anything here ring true?

Anything helpful?

Form flier, can we please assume from here on out that my daughter, is, has been and will be my first priority? If there is anything in my posting that has led you to believe otherwise can you please point it out to me? I realize that none of us know each other in real life so all we have is our words.

Yes I think that was true, however he did tell me he thought it was going to be easy to divorce his wife as he did it once before and it was very easy. That was before they had assets and property and a business. That divorce was also not because of a woman, that I know of.

He did tell me from the beginning things were complicated but he didn't go into detail as he claimed he was trying to protect me, but that didn't really protect me, it allowed me to engage in what I now consider a fantasy relationship for 3 years before I finally said no more.

My partner still has what I want: he is very intelligent, good with my daughter, insightful, treats me far better and values me far more then my ex husband, good with my family, good with my community. I want everything he has to offer me, after he's divorced his wife.

I think what set off this most recent conflict is what I said earlier, I said something that sounded to him like I was saying facetime did not provide security for the relationship. What I was trying to say was that Facetime was not a substitute for a real life relationship and I would rather him spend his time making a real life relationship possible.

As I also said I think I can prevent a lot of trouble by simply ignoring texts of his that I find provocative. That's where we get in the most trouble, and I notice I get in the same kind of trouble with my dad and my ex, however when I block my dad and my ex they don't ramp up the opposition the same way my partner does. (I did have a very problematic interaction with my ex this weekend which I am preparing to write about on the co-parenting board.)

I've had to review my pictures from the last 4 years as I'm working on my probate case and its making me look at my relationship from my partner, and when I look at it, I feel angry. I like everything my partner provided for and gave me however it was all premature. We should not have had that kind of relationship while he was still married and I just took him at his word that the divorce was moving along.

I saw how happy I was in the beginning of the relationship and then there was the first suicide attempt. I remember exactly where I was when that happened and how it changed me.

There was so much hope, joy, happiness, excitement at the beginning of this relationship when I believed everything he told me.

There's probably enough substance in what I am saying here to make a separate post as this has nothing to do with him hanging up on me.

I'm not suggesting she is not your first priority, that was nowhere in my post.

The question I asked, and was not answered, is what if energy, time, effort was taken from one area of your life, the r/s where you are waiting on a divorce, and put towards your daughter.

I'm not saying end the other r/s, but take a bunch of energy and time out of it, and put towards daughter.

What would that look like.  Many times you mention issues you are having with your daughter.

Perhaps, a move like this could help.

FF

Again, I'm asking you to please point out to me where I'm giving you the impression I'm not spending time, energy, resources on my daughter. Since we do not know each other in this forum, the only thing we have is our words. In my real life I take for granted that people know certain things about me. Here I can't do that.

---

Amended to say I am having a huge co-parenting problem which I have not posted about yet on the co-parenting board but I'm working on how to word it.

And again, I haven't suggested that you are NOT doing that.

I am asking the question if you took time from your LDR and added it to the time/energy/effort that you are already spending on your daughter, if that would be better. 

Less time on minutiae of phone calls/facetime/texts and analyzing all of that and add that time to the time you already spend on your daughter.

Please don't take anything in my comments to suggest you are a bad mom, or are not valuing you daughter.

What I am suggesting is that more time could make you a better mom (we can always be better) and that less time on your LDR (stepping away) is something that has been talked about on here for months as a good thing.

FF

Hi unicorn2014

Well done on trying to find a better way to work through your problems. That's difficult. :)


"Facetime is not enough! Why aren't you watching me sleeping? You're a horrible boyfriend. You are the worst decision in my life. I should go back to my ex."

So we can relate better, I share this.

• My ex and I used to LDR and Facetime every night.



• We slept on Facetime too.



• She was afraid of ghosts and it bandaged her various addictions.

I felt I had the 'full suite' of Facetime fights. Not just the fruit basket  :) Puns totally intended.

---

---

Work on the roots. The roots.


Why many people on this thread focus on roots:

• If you are Deciding, those truly are the more important things.



• They are the early stage causals.  :thought:



• To clear the air and as a gentle reminder to ourselves: sundry problems are futile if the root isn't dealt with.    



• In the long-run, failure to touch the roots will multiply every other daily problem.



• They seem to be the most effective effort from the Staying and after-relationship boards.



• A roots-focus is supportive and good-spirited behaviour.



• Root-work is truly vitally important versus handling day-to-day issues.



• Root-work did most of my work for me (and probably many other members) with my ex SO.



• They will help you to move on from ":)eciding or Conflicted". To progress.

Gentle reminder: Root-work is more difficult.


Despite all of that, I'd like to chip in here. On a tiny scale. Help with this branch: the hangup topic.

But before that can happen, there's an important assumption that needs to change.

---

---

You seem to have committed to staying.

36 months is truly a long time. It's a long time to be in ":)eciding".

I feel you are conflicted in thought. Your actions show you either:

(1) snagged in ":)eciding", or

(2) are in a wrong action category (you are better served in the 'Staying/Improving' board).

Regardless of the board:

• In substance, you have already committed to staying.



•  |iiii I feel that's neither 'good' nor 'bad', but simply a path you have taken.

I have additional personal appraisal questions for Step 2 (2- Take a step backward), PM me if you want those. I don't want to clutter the board.

---

---

This portion works on "how I react when I'm hung up on".



Of the ~7 times you talked about it, ~4 times were to bring attention back to it.


These questions seem to be underneath this issue:

• "How do I get unstuck?"



• "What do you think of my behaviour?"



• "Can I do better around being hung up on?"



• "What can I change to get unstuck?"



• "What can I do better next time to avoid getting stuck in the first place?"

Let's focus on that.

---

Your way of behaving and dealing with things.

We can't change others' behaviour, but one thing we can do is change our own.

First issue.

This is what it is:

• The source: a difficult dialogue.



• The dialogue content: an assertion of "facetime did not provide security for the relationship".



• The content origin: your feelings.



• The judgement on the origin: none. Feelings are neither wrong or right.

Therefore, the problem is within the dialogue.

• Have you tried other methods and techniques of dealing with difficult dialogue?



• Is it working?




• How did your discussion go about "facetime did not provide security for the relationship"?

(Answered below.)

• What led to the first hang up?

(Answer: "I think what set off this most recent conflict is what I said earlier, I said something that sounded to him like I was saying facetime did not provide security for the relationship."

Ok. That is fair.

(Answer: "What I was trying to say was that Facetime was not a substitute for a real life relationship and I would rather him spend his time making a real life relationship possible."

Ok. That is a fair feeling.

• What was the specific tonal exchange of the last few sentences?



• At what exact points did escalation occur?



• In the conversation, how would you separately rate each of your emotional levels on a scale of 1 to 10?



• How did you specifically validate him?



• How did you specifically validate yourself?



• Did you validate before asking him to do something difficult?  

---

Second issue.




I feel very strongly against this.

Plain avoidance can be problematic. It can be good. It can be logical.

Yet, judgement-free, do you think it's kind for you to do that if all 3 have been diagnosed?

What else have you tried?

Ty 4 all this and I will answer more in depth online. We used to sleep on ft and I cut it out. I was on the staying board and then when I found out his divorce wasn't filed I moved over to the undecided board. I'm hanging out here until I get a case number or run out of patience. I was a stayer until 9/2015.

Ty again for this in depth reply. I will address the meat of it on my laptop.

I'm still on my phone but I wanted to talk about the first issue. My partner was complaining about the lack of FaceTime , I think, I don't really remember now.

All I can say is I'm dissatisfied with the whole structure of the previous relationship: FaceTime, 2 week stays in my apartment, he does everything with me. I want a relationship that meets in the middle. I've expressed this to him.

On issue 2, what 3 are you referring to as being diagnosed?

if I had thought we tried I tried facetiming him the other night, I suppose to "diagnose the issue" ... .It was a very unsatisfactory experience. My daughter was simultaneously on FaceTime with her new love interest while watching that 70s show and I was trying to cook dinner. My daughter pointed her iPhone at me while I was on FaceTime so I had to engage with her love interest. My "love interest" actually felt sorry for me as he could see I was overstimulated .

Earlier as part of our "fight" he had said he would never request FaceTime again but he hasn't in weeks so that was a mute point.

At any rate the "magic" was gone on our ft call and I said to him next time we should do that when my daughters not home. He was trying to tell me about Brahms and it was impossible to listen.

The other issue is FaceTime is not a substitute for family life and he could never live with us as he makes way too much money for our apartment complex.

The whole of our relationship took place in my apart in my life. I could never afford to go see him.

As I was looking through the pictures of his visits I was getting more and more irritated as I was seeing just how inappropriate our relationship was. I can never allow him to stay with me again and he knows it.

Couple this with antagonism from my ex and my father ... .All the things he promised me have not come to pass.

And yet he still helps me with my daughter and my own mental illness and he provides intellectual companionship and emotional support.

It is a very complicated relationship . There is a reason I haven't dated anyone local: no one, and I literally mean no one, has held my interest.

It's not like I haven't tried.


So that is why I am still holding out for him, hoping he can get it his divorce and move out here before I meet I'm not looking for someone else. As I said before my first priority is resurrecting my career so I can make material progress. I still haven't recovered from my own divorce. I sacrificed my career and my education for my marriage and family and I still haven't recovered.

Which brings us back to the original discussion. FaceTime is a poor substitute for family life, he could never live with us, and I don't know that I'll ever trust him again to live with him.

I haven't even begun to discuss what his betrayal utterly irresponsible handling of his own marriage and "divorce" has done to me.

Here's the clincher: I told him he better get his act together as I mentioned him as my fiancé in my paper for my probate attorney as he had valuable insight on the issues on hand as he knows some of my family. I did tell him I want to talk to his divorce attorney because if my case goes to trial and I go on the witness stand I don't want to commit perjury by saying he's my fiancé. We will see.

I thought you guys weren't engaged anymore or that you weren't using that term.  Did you get re-engaged?

No need to worry about perjury or talk to his attorney.  Just describe him as a person you are in a relationship with.

For legal purposes I would be very shy about describing yourself as engaged to someone that is already married.  Not sure you can (or should) do that.

FF

His attorney is filing a motion to compel today according to him. Whether or not I feel he is my fiancé that is what he is. I unranked him because of what he did to me but that doesn't change the nature of our relationship. We have never just been in a relationship. Our whole relationship has been defined by his proposition to me.

Another benefit of stepping back and taking a bigger view is that it sometimes becomes easier to see "our" role (in this case you) in conflict in a r/s.

I say this because part of being in a r/s, especially a long term one, is defining the nature of the r/s. 

If he believes that you two are engaged, and you are going back and forth on that, can you see how that is confusing and could contribute to conflict. 

Plus, there is a certain "indirectness" to passive aggressive character to a lot of your communication. 

If you are not willing to take away time from your r/s to work more on your daughter, do you think you can take time away from focusing on the divorce (his stuff) and focus on healthy communication (your stuff) for the next few weeks?

Last thought for now:

Unicorn,

I'm rooting for you here.  No intent at all to pick at you or tear you down.  My reaction to your threads and your situation is like me standing on a street and hollering at you as you turn the wrong way, down a one way street.

So, I and many others are hollering, "You are going the wrong way, "

You are sitting in the car going "How do they know where I am going, ?"

Which is a wonderful question.  I don't know where you are going, but I am positive that you will not get there doing the wrong way down a one way street.

FF

unicorn, please think about this, and do it in a perfect, imaginary world, where you have a perfect imaginary partner who doesn't create constant conflict, isn't married to somebody else, and lives nearby, and would be capable of joining you in a relationship that is perfect to you. (I know your current partner falls short all the areas I listed, but you can still imagine him without these issues. Or pick George Clooney to imagine instead... .this is a thought experiment... .whatever works for you)

Now, with this person who is available for your ideal relationship, what does this "meeting in the middle" relationship really look like. Think about how much time you want to spend with him, imagine a the whole picture. What does an ordinary Tuesday night look like. What does a normal week look like? (not a holiday or vacation)

Maybe you can draw upon memories of good times in prior relationships to help you paint a picture.

Really think about what a good, healthy relationship for you looks like.

Write it down. A description, at least a page or two. Try to get it as visceral and real as you can. If you have more of  a writer in you, make it a whole short story.

Then take a look at your partner, and ask yourself what parts of this he already does, what parts of this he isn't doing, but is capable of, and what parts he probably will never be able to do. Don't ask him, ask yourself. (He seems very good at telling you he will become exactly what you want him to be when you ask, and not so good at actually doing it thus far.)

Formflier , if we can move forward with the assumption that redirecting me to my daughter is not what it is needed here I think we might get better results. Could you consider this please?

-

He knows how I feel about the engagement prior to divorce.

-

I did print out bushels post, I think the key to peace is in analyzing my reactions to his (my partners) statements. I think a further key to success is to keep taking a step backward when I feel irritated.

---

Grey kitty also brings up some good points. There are some points about my former marriage that are relevant here. That was my only other relationship and that took place in community. I've never experienced the kind of relationship I want nor can I see it . I will wrote about this later.

Sure thing.

Remove all references to your daughter from my earlier posts.  Instead, insert rehabilitating yourself for the job market.

I believe in a prior post you said you had to drop a claim or some sort of activity for rehabilitation because another part of your life was taking up more time (see, on my best behavior, didn't reference things you asked me not to reference!   :) )

You only have so many hours per day and a limited amount of energy to expend.  A serious effort to re-prioritize the amount of time spent on different activities in your life will reap huge benefits for you.

It is likely that less time spent on your LDR romantic r/s will result a much healthier, less reactive romantic r/s.  That will allow you to focus more on the person that you are attracted to without all the hangups, texts, facetimes and other things getting in the way.

In reading your response to GK above, it would seem that you are saying you have not ever had a healthy r/s.   With that in mind, I can understand how the pathway to get to one looks fuzzy to you, perhaps looks like scary choices that you do NOT want to take.  

Please consider that it is possible that the road you are on now does NOT lead to the r/s that you want.  Can you consider this please?

If we use that assumption (on wrong road), how does that affect your choices?

FF

Hi form flier, I've failed to communicate.

My inability to commit to a 18 month rehab is because my daughter went into crisis and I have no one else to help me with her. Spending more time on her is not the solution. Spending less time on him is not the solution. The problem is quite literally man power and he does help with the social-emotional aspects of parenting.

As soon as I stabilize my daughter I will be talking to my employment specialist again. I told her (employment specialist) I needed to deal with my daughter first and she closed my case for me as those things are time sensitive. I like you have a permanent disability so need rehabilitation to go back to work.

I think the key lies in not getting stuck in taking a step backward.

And you're right , I've never had a healthy relationship, not with my husband, and my father is quite challenging. I don't know that meeting in the middle with a teen is an option. A Tuesday night would be me home with my daughter.

I think the trick is to notice when I'm irritated and to back away from the relationship , and it might not be the relationship that's irritating me. If I'm angry, if I'm tired, that's not a time I going to want to connect to my partner. He always wants to connect to me. He rarely takes space these days.

I think this is wise.

I think when you do decide to take a step back, that it would be most helpful for you to direct your immediate focus, not on your D, or anyone else... .

On Yourself.

I think practicing noticing you are uncomfortable => stepping back and immediately applying an act of self care that makes you feel good... .is how you can reprogram your behavior.

If you do this consistently for 3wks straight, it should become your new normal.  You just have to get through 3 full wks of consistent self care response.  If you cannot, you need to repeat and repeat until you get the 3 wks consistent... .it could take months... .or just 3 wks.

Simply doing NC for a small period does not seem, in itself, to be an act of self care that feels good to you.  NC without proper self care/self soothing... .seems to be ineffective... .which is why I think the piece that you are missing is the self care.

Eventually, with practice, taking a step back for self care will feel nurturing and enjoyable. (Not anxiety provoking)

I think you need this skill for the success of any relationship... .BPD or no BPD.  Especially ones with PD persons.

*mod*


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