BPDFamily.com

Hi,

So I know there is a workshop on Projection, and it is helpful, but wondering how people DEAL with projection? Even though my ex pwBPD and I have been done for 5 weeks I still see him at work and he has said a lot of things, not to mention all of the things he's said in the past (a lot of them things he's already said) that I believe are projections. However, I often find myself questioning if it's true about me, not really knowing it IS projection. And even if I DO, say for example he says it when he's really angry, I can tell it's about him, b/c it's such crazy accusations, but then I will shortly after finding myself questioning AM I like that/do that/etc etc etc!

Plus, I have found myself going back over many of the projections and really wondering if I'm wrong in thinking they ARE projections. And then, even when I DO know that, I don't know what to do with that. I get very upset b/c it's NOT true and it's actually the opposite, but I know trying to explain that to him is useless and actually harmful, so what do you do when your integrity is being insulted, who you are is being insulted, etc?

How do you also not fall into believing it? My therapist keeps saying I don't trust myself when I go over EVERY detail of something that happened in order to make sure she can see both sides and tell me if he IS in fact true.

apeper, can you give an example of what he said that you think, kr doubt, is projection?

Not being able to say your peace, to defend yourself against things said that are not true or never happened (because depending yourself will only end in more drama and/or disbelief from the other party), the feeling you're not heard and that there will not be closue is really hard. IMO it's an ego thing. Everyone wants to be able to say their peace. Sometimes enhanced by past wounds. I know for me it's extra hard to swallow because my mother never seemed to hear me. It's something I always find hard. I have, apart from days where I'm feeling bad, been able to let it go to a degree. I will never get acknowledgement from him as to what happened and what he misinterpreted etc. Simply because his thruth is different than mine. Apparently BPDs tend to have completely different recollections of events than the people that were at the same events. They hear things and words completely different than most others. More negative. They apparently hear sounds and music differently to NONs. It's like getting a Martian to understand what it's like to live on earth. Not possible.

What bothers me more is his aarmy of minions that believed his version of what happened between us and what I did, said etc. Then again, I never liked any of his close friends/fans/minions as I found them cold, mean, childish and didn't trust them instinctively. They are probably BPDs or Narcs themselves, at the very least enablers and people pleasers. So they will never acknowledge anything or their role either, and my rational side can say "what do I care? They are nothing to me anyway" but my emotional side can't stand it. Having to be around those people when I get back to work, knowing the role they played in hurting me and hanging up on me, having to work with them on a daily basis, knowing they are thinking all these things about me, gossiping, it makes me feel angry, mistreated, abusief and very very vulnerable.

If you haven't read up on JADE (Justify Argue Defend Explain), then I'd recommend reading up on it, along with validation. You can find this and lots of other information on the "LESSONS" threads.


I certainly had my moments of "But that's just not true?" with my uBPDex; it's very very hard to keep one's cool and validate someone's skewed perspective of you. It's also hard to even notice that it's projection in the first place, especially if you're an analytical person who has a certain level of commitment to self-examination and self-improvement. And in rocky relationship times you probably really desperately want to be given something to work on.

I had a big "aha!" moment recently when I realized that most of the terrible things that my ex said about me were actually about her. That might feel like passing the buck at first, but you might try flipping the script for yourself and thinking of the things that he says about you as being things that he is telling you about himself. Does that feel more true to you?

My ex is being seethingly hateful to me right now.  It is very hard to take but I am not allowing myself to respond.  I have simply said "thank you" "please leave me alone".  The things he says are not true at all or extremely twisted in order to make himself unblameable in the situation he is projecting about.  Like my walking away when he was hateful to me was the reason he felt like he didn't matter and gave him permission to put his hands on me.  My pushing his hands off me and accidentally bumping his chin when I did so, was grounds for him to slap me.  In his mind it is all justified because he spins and says he wasn't hateful when I walked away, when in fact, he was cussing and raising his voice while calling me names and telling me what I WOULD be doing that day.  Him slapping me because he said I bumped him on purpose when I should have let him push and pull me into whatever position he wanted, when after I was in the position he wanted, he would jerk me again and tell me to stand there... .I was standing there.  I hadn't moved.  You never took your hands off of me long enough for me to even get my balance.  Then, you push me out of that position and yell at me to stand up again and put me back where I was?  How does that make sense?  But he never did that, you know.  Now, because I won't talk to him, he's spewing all sorts of hateful stuff and lies at me.  It just reminds me of why I'm not married to him any longer. 

So if I get the projection thing correctly him saying I didn't know what love is, is really him saying he doesn't know? That makes sense actually...

And the stab on his blog I have cold eyes and an empty heart... Well, I remember how I thought his eyes had changed so much between when I was "awesome" (warm) and when he devalued me (cold). So that makes sense too.

woundedbibi... .


exactly... .I heard constantly how selfish, unappreciative, cold hearted, etc... .I was.

Sometimes I wish he would have said that. Well, not that but SAID something. Mostly he refused to speak. He wanted me to read his mind I think. If I had really loved him or was "the one" for him I would have been able to and would have understood what he wanted without words. So what he said was via Whatsapp, hissed in anger in one sentence (which scared the hell out of me and made me physically step back) or was said to others (his minions) with whom he shared way more than with me even if what he said wasn't true, or on his blog. It was like trying to have a conversation with a brick wall. An angry looking brick wall.

Learned something today  |iiii

Projection is a defense to them.  They can't see themselves as bad, so they'll 'project' that badness onto someone to show themselves that person is the bad guy, not them. Clear as mud, right?

This typically happens after the guilt/shame they feel catches up to them and rather than deal with those feelings (they can't), they'll push (project) those feelings to someone else.  For instance, J lied to me constantly about her marital status.  When that guilt caught up to her, she got mad at me because I "wouldn't ever be truthful with her" about what was going on in my own separation.  I pointed out to her, that it was her that was being deceitful about her status, not me, which made her angry.  I was the bad guy for lying to her, when in fact it was her that was lying to me. I was an even bigger bad guy for calling her a liar (her words) because I pointed out her deception.  At first I tried to validate her feelings, but she wasn't having any of that, and forced an argument.  Which I gave her, because by that point I was tired of being accused all the time of "using her" - which was another projection.  I was, in fact, the one being used... .but it wasn't ok for me to point that out.

A lot of what he said, I'm sure, was his views of himself.  You were the 'mirror' he casted those feelings on. Once again, this wasn't about you.  It was about him.  See the reoccurring theme yet?

I do see it... thank you  *)

This mud reading... it's still confusing as at least my ex contradicted himself a lot, hardly spoke directly to me about how he felt and of course is a BPD/Narc but... I'm getting better at it  :)

Somehow I can almost picture myself as a tarot card reader now, with a shawl and big earrings stirring in a puddel of mud... Or a dowser  :)  At least I'm getting my sense of humour back  *)

great input so far, just wanted to toss some thoughts in:

time and space helps with perspective. a little less painful to consider whether or not there was/is truth to these statements, own your share and nothing more.

i wouldnt dismiss every accusation that doesnt ring true as just projection. probably many of them were his perception of reality. that doesnt make it reality, but it means its true from his perspective. and yes, there are lessons to be learned from that.

there are plenty of things my ex accused me of more than once. i can see now, with time and space, why she felt that way, and that whether or not i should have, i could have handled it differently or more effectively. or not handled it, for that matter. thats irrelevant to my relationship now, but to be able to see things from another persons perspective is a skill that has improved my relationships (of all kinds) with others and helped me better deal with challenging personalities.

i also asked myself if these were the kinds of accusations anyone else has thrown at me. some of them were. i asked myself to what extent, with whom, etc. some of them werent. truth is, none of them defined me. big difference between understanding the perspective of others and letting it define you.

edit: i wanted to add, a lot of what im describing is further down the road kinda stuff, later into recovery. i understand many of us internalized projections or questioned our sanity or both. thats where time and space and healing come in. right now its an ongoing situation, its effecting you, your integrity, etc, and thats natural.

how do you feel about what your therapist said?

Ah, yeah I can give a ton of examples, all of which are long. A short one would be that a long time ago he said I don't have room in my life for him, when all I'd done and have done is do everything I can to show him how much I care, etc.

It's too hard to give examples. I think you know what I'm talking about?

Thanks, I'll look at the lessons more.

And yes, I've tried flipping it, and then later I think oh NO, it's ture about ME! I'm feeling more confident that it's not true about me at this moment, and trying to do what you said, think of it as them saying what they think about themself, but that's not what is happening. I don't think he says what he says thinking Ill take it as him telling me he thinks that about himself. But I can read btw the lines and try to know that's what's going on. I have a hard time thinking he believes he is right and that other people he tells agree with him (even though he never gives the whole story)... .

I guess what I'm trying to say is: if you hear a critique/criticism/accusation/observation from him that you know just isn't true then it's coming from him, not from you.

You also got some great wisdom here from once_removed:


If you're being truly accountable for your actual actions and reactions (and once_removed here is showing A LOT of accountability) and it isn't doing a damn bit of good in your relationship ... .that's them projecting, not you being all of the awful things they've said about you. There may be a grain of truth to what he says, but that's up to you to decide. Accountability is a big deal with pwBPD: they're nearly incapable of doing it.

My ex used to tell me that I don't make room for a man in my life, that I only am happy alone with my son. Would it be projection?

this may not be an example of projection, but it really depends on the context. what was going on when he said that? would you argue that he didnt seem to have room in his life for you? of course its possible that the statement was projection; our exes had a very different reality and experience than we did, and its possible that at the time he felt he did not have room in his life for you and projected that onto you. my hunch is that he was just expressing neediness.

for nearly three years my ex and i practically lived together and i constantly craved my space. she, on a number of occasions, expressed that she didnt see me enough. we had our share of fights about it. my personal opinion remains that we saw far too much of each other for my own good. it says something about me that i continued to do so when it did nothing to alter her perception and made me increasingly resentful. i can also learn from the fact that over time i increasingly needed space from her but remained in the relationship, and the fact that my neglecting her for nearly two months played a role in our breakup and her finding someone to fill the attention (attachment) that she needed. so while i can understand why she felt that way, i dont blame myself. i know my truth, and im confident in it.

in your particular example, its important to remember that pwBPD gain a sense of self by means of attaching. our absence, or perceived absence, is interpreted as abandonment, causes intense feelings of loneliness and emptiness, that a pwBPD generally cant cope with. typically you will be blamed for that. equally important to remember that for a person with BPD, feelings = fact. if a person with BPD feels you are absent, it might look like an argument about how you have no room for them in your life. evidence to the contrary is largely irrelevant. the feeling, in the moment, is the fact. and in fact, arguing or offering evidence to the contrary can be perceived as invalidating, and may even reinforce these feelings.

is that your fault? not at all. but it may have been his perspective. a crucial lesson here is the extent to which we were willing to go to change another persons perspective, at our own expense, despite the fact that it wasnt our truth.

Once removed, I don't know how to do the quote thing on my iPad, but that last bit really struck a cord... The changing of someone else's perspective. I'm going to think about that today  *) 

I does also make me slightly philosophical. THE thruth hardly ever exists, even 2 NONs will often have separate thruths about events. And a lot of what we call thruth is coloured by interpretation and emotions and not just what physically happened. The more emotionally involved you are the more coloured your description of the thruth will be. I mean someone describing being hit by a SO will not give just a dry description of the events: "I stood here. He stood there. He slapped me on this side of my face. It hurt my face. It left a mark. I went to hospital. I'm back home now."

In my job I've always learned that what someone else feels IS their thruth and denying it is pointless and putting someone down. And not everything is measurable. What is seeing someone enough? There is no number attached to that. It's not like a pill, '50 milligram per day is the required dose and more could have side effects'. So that is purely based on feeling, what is enough or too little or too much. The thing is that in a healthy relationship you should be able to discuss it and find some compromise. I do recognise some BPD traits in myself in often feeling something or someone isn't enough. Which makes sense as I want them to fill this gap inside me that they can never fill. Like a bottomless pit. I just don't throw a tantrum about it  *)

Thanks MB! I will try to keep all of that in mind. I think my gut has an initial knowing if I believe I've done something or not when he is accusing me/blaming me, etc. I have a different physical reaction as well. It happens so fast sometimes though, that I lose sight of it.

I agree that being accountable for my actions is important, and I do believe I have been, to the best of my ability. I know I could have done better in some areas, however, I admit that, and I've even taken responsibility for things that I don't think I needed to just to keep things "calm".

Thanks!

Ah, yes. Perhaps projection isn't right. I don't know if he was feeling he didn't have room for me in his life, rather he was accusing me of not having room for me in his life, when he was the one who DIDN'T have room for me in HIS life. SO maybe it wasn't that he was saying I was being how he felt, rather he was blaming me for something that he was actually doing... .

Ahhhhh Ugggggg. This is all so complicated. It's like we are supposed to feel our feelings, acknowledge we were hurt and angry (not to them obviously) feel confident in ourselves, yet at the same time try to "understand" their behavior (like that their feelings are fact, that my absence = rejection/abandonment etc). What I find VERY angering about this whole thing around my absence = rejection/abandonment is that he didn't express happiness and caring or love when I WAS present, he didn't acknowledge the things I DID do, only the things he PERCEIVED I wasn't doing... .

man oh man, I have a long way to go!

Thanks for taking the journey with me everyone!

Hi again,

I like this as well, I'm just a bit confused by what you mean when it wasn't our truth. Trying to change someone else's perspective at our own expense even when what we are trying to change their perspective to isn't what we believe? I think I'm not totally understanding this, but I want to b/c I think it is helpful!

WB: thank you for all of your comments!

I totally agree here, that we all have these feelings/behaviors etc, but it's the fact that they are unwilling to talk about it in a rational, encouraging, supportive, safe way that makes it unhealthy. I LOVE that you differentiate that! B/c I keep going over and over things and wonder if it's I have BPD or some personality DO, which I'm sure we all have aspects of, but the way we DEAL with it is the difference! 

I don't necessarily believe this has to be the case.  For myself when I examine events in my life (current and past) regardless of what they are, I put myself into the role of an outside observer ... .an informed but objective third party.  This way I remove myself from potentially flawed subjective interpretations of events and it allows me to see things as they really are, not how I (as the subject) might want them to be.

Hmmmm... sounds like an interesting technique. Past, that I get and could easily do. Present I would find more difficult; putting myself in the role of an observer when I'm talking to someone, it feels like it would take me forever to respond to someone... Or is it just like that in the beginning, that it slows your reaction down and you get used to it after a while? Or am I not understanding you correctly  *)?

It is definitely more difficult to do it in the moment, especially if that moment is emotionally charged, which makes it nearly impossible at times.  There is nothing wrong with a slow reaction time or to think about what you are saying before you say it.  Again this is much harder to do when the situation is emotionally charged but it can be done and to the benefit of both.

I am definitely going to try this out when I get back to work! Apart from the current circumstances my work is often quite emotionally charged and I think in the past I've been focusing too much on getting it done quickly because there's never enough time instead of paying enough attention to whomever I'm talking to and the effect of what we are discussing and how.

Still, thruth is an interesting subject; when the police question witnesses after let's an accident, they will get a different eye witness account from all of them. Police officers often say the worst evidence comes from witnesses.

I think you will find this is likely due to people filling in the blanks of their memory when reconstructing the event.  This is something you need to be aware of when playing the third party role. 

I don't know about anyone else, but this is all a bit overwhelming. I keep thinking I have something to hold onto, a concept or something, but then it gets all changed around. I know nothing is black or white, but right now, getting thru this early part of dealing with all this, I need something to hold onto that doesn't leave such a bit gap for me to go back to blaming myself.

I think I need to just step back. He is not at work this week, at least not most of it I think, and he may come at the end of the day for a bit. But it's really the seeing him daily that is that hardest b/c everything gets even more easily lost... .

Can you explain this a little more?

Sometimes i feel like I have a handle on knowing  I didn't cause things to be this way, I didn't cause the craziness in the relationship. Then I learn more about BPD and I get confused b/c it's like his behavior is explained and I feel kind of like I shouldn't be angry and I somehow DID create the craziness, does that make more sense? Thanks for asking me to clarify!

Perhaps at this point instead of trying to understand him and his role/responsibility in the relationship it might help you to clearly identify your own role/responsibility.  Once you are confident you have a handle on what you did or did not do wrong then what he projects onto you will have no merit.

That is a good idea! When I do this, do I include not dealing with his BPD well? He isn't actually diagnosed, I didn't actually know he has BPD traits until I was well into the relationship. So it's not like I knew, oh you deal with this reaction x way and didn't. I honestly didn't understand so many of his reactions and moods.

I guess I can accept responsibility for not knowing how to deal with his mood swings better, but I don't think I take responsibility for not making him feel secure. I tried EVERYTHING in order to do so. He even told me on many occasions there was nothing I COULD do, he knew I was in a lose lose situation.

Ok, I need to trust my opinion on these things, as well as my therapist. I feel like I'm spiraling out of being in touch with reality, and brushing aside all of the things I KNOW happened and how NOT ok they were.

He is returning to work tomorrow in stead of Friday which I'm not looking forward to... .

 

Have you made mistakes? Of course, you're human! But you didn't know what you were getting yourself into.

You're responsible for you, not him. Did you trigger him reacting in a BPD way? Yes, but ANYONE in a relationship with him would have triggered him. All and any relationship trigger him, the closer the relationship the bigger the trigger. If he would have had a relationship with someone else instead of you, she would have triggered him. Perhaps if you would have known about the BPD and had reacted differently (if you could have) the relationship would have lasted longer (or not) but it still wouldn't have lasted. BPDs don't have longlasting healthy relationships. Hang in there! 

it is confusing. it does seem counter intuitive, i know. it also seems counter intuitive that we come to bpdfamily to learn about BPD and share what weve been through, we have a series of aha! moments, realize we arent solely to blame, and then wind up turning the focus to ourselves. its detachment in the bigger picture. its not an easy transition whatsoever. its a testament to you that you are open to your own accountability, it will serve you in your detachment, but i understand its incredibly complicated to process. thats okay. give it time. things are still very raw for you i imagine.

sometimes i dont explain this very well so if i need to elaborate ill be glad to: by the very nature of relationships, and the fact that they are an interaction between two people, we all played a role, and we all played a role in the dysfunction of the relationship. i cant stress enough that realizing that is not about blaming ourselves, or our partners. i can tell you that for me, it gave me a clearer understanding of "what happened", which we all want to know, presumably.

i like this way of putting it:


in my example i gave her perspective: "i dont see you enough" and mine: "you see me too much". lets just assume that when the relationship ended, for the sake of argument, that i agonized over the idea that "maybe i really didnt see her enough" and was riddled with self doubt. how do i deal with that self doubt? i prod the issue and since reality was mentioned, i do what is called "reality testing".

i need privacy and space. we all do. i explained that in a pretty straight forward manner to my ex. that it wasnt about her. plants need water to grow - they die if you drown them. they get scorched if they receive too much sunlight. shed tell me she understood. then shed turn around and refer to "when you have to get away from me." it was such an exasperating statement. "ITS NOT ABOUT GETTING AWAY FROM YOU" i said in my head. "THIS ISNT SOME WEIRD ISSUE WHERE I SOMETIMES DONT LIKE MY GIRLFRIEND AND HAVE TO HIDE OUT." i probably said something like that. it didnt compute. my need for space was, from her perspective, about needing away from her. BPD aside, it was a fundamental incompatibility.

i explained though, exactly where it has to do with BPD. i took that understanding, of how she struggled to be alone or away from me (or any attachment), along with the facts of the relationship (the intense amount of time we actually spent together) and i determined no amount of time i could have spent with her would have been "enough" for her, and was too much for me. it applied in lots of other areas too. sounds pretty cut and dry right? lets dig deeper and sort out accountability:

i also mentioned i neglected her for nearly the final two months of our relationship. frankly i neglected her at every opportunity i had. the relationship was an exhausting full time job that left me running on adrenaline constantly (expense of myself). this of course came up when she broke up with me. so that, of course, i had tremendous self doubt about. during those two months she lined up my replacement. it happens all the time, but theres no excuse for that. ordinarily you break up with someone who is neglecting you. on the other hand, its cruel to remain in a relationship with someone you constantly want to neglect. its not fair to you either.

and that lesson came with a profound sense of freedom. i have a tendency to get into relationships and situations i dont ultimately want to be in, and it comes at the expense of myself. if i claim, as i did, that i was so unhappy in the relationship, it begs the question of why i stayed. and the answer is that obviously the dysfunction served me in some way.

my truth is that there are many, many things i could have handled better. there always are. we are human and humans make mistakes. my truth is that she had many complaints that simply dont hold up with the facts. my truth is that no other partner has ever complained about not seeing me enough. i suspect no other partner ever will. my truth is that we were fundamentally incompatible and its better that we are not together. i understand her perspective, and i endeavored to do so to better understand "what happened". the truth is that her perspective is no longer my problem.

apepper21, anger is one of the stages of grief, and you have every right to feel it. understanding his perspective or examining your role does not excuse his actions. it can add balance to the anger, though, as can compassion and forgiveness, but no one gets to that place over night, without first feeling their anger. you probably will go back and forth between blaming yourself and blaming him. i think thats natural. its part of processing. and yes, seeing him on a daily basis complicates that processing.

not all of what i wrote will apply to you, but i hope some of it does, and that it explains what is a confusing concept. in your case your therapist has suggested that you dont trust yourself. there is very likely a lesson there if you dig into it.

ps. i dont intend to be black and white about "our truth" and im not advocating we all run around behaving as we wish unapologetically. self awareness is key. self awareness keeps us accountable. our guts will tell us when something is off and we should pay attention to that feeling - its self awareness too.


i wasnt very clear, sorry. i meant trying to change someones perspective when we fundamentally disagree with their perspective. like someone telling you you have no room for them in your life when youve made nothing but room for them in your life - and continuing to do so when their perspective hasnt and wont change :). hope that clarifies.

Thank you so much for saying all that, that it true! Really really good reminder:)

My ex at the end projected so many things onto me my head was spinning! She had told me I was obsessed with her. I was the one who ran after her. Wanted to move in with her ASAP and get married. Mind you this was all the things she said to me in the very beginning of a 2nd shot with our relationship. And she was the one who ran after me until I finally gave in. Stupid me!

I feel like sometimes, in the course of my own postmortem, I've confused projections with other kinds of thought distortions.

Example:

The way he ended it was he told me in a very offhand way that he was seeing someone else, and then he stopped replying to my follow-up emails--which weren't angry, by the way. They were emotional, but not blaming or angry. I really understood why he would want to see someone else. It's just that he dropped a bomb on me and then disappeared. Then when he decided to resurface (email, that is), I told him how bad that made me feel (the silence). He wrote, "Oh, it's fine when you do it." But I'd never given him the silent treatment--not once. I can't decide if this was a projection or if he had misinterpreted some incident where I was slow to reply to an email as punishment.

This is maybe a better example:

Once, earlier, when he was mad at me for having to cancel a date, he said I was "pushing and pulling." I didn't even know what the term meant. He'd probably been googling BPD. I guess I don't think that was a projection anymore. It's not that he was pushing and pulling and then accusing me of it. I think he had push/pulled in other relationships, so he was hypervigilant about it with me.

It is difficult to make an analysis of what happened and what was his and what was yours because you have mostly (if not only) just your own input to go on.

It's like shooting with hail at tweety bird with a blindfold on hoping you manage to kill it. Reading up on BPD takes away the blindfold, working on what you think it is and digging deeper and deeper makes tweety bird become Big Bird but it takes time and we will never be completely sure we will get it right. If you had any input from the other party (mine refused to speak mostly so I have little to go on) the question is of course how much of that is 'true'.