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maybe it was never love to her? My wife and I have not had sex or made love in over 3 years.

Sorry for the graphic words here but in the past month she has let me feel her breasts and she has given me some hand jobs ( I don't know how else to say it)

Though she feels wonderful and she seemed to be ok with it there seems to be no "lovemaking" I want to be be against her body so bad and I ache for her. I want the feeling of connection between us in that area.

I struggle every night. My thought is... .if it does not get better maybe I suggest we sleep in separate rooms. I would explain to her that is the only way I can subdue my feelings is not be laying right next to her.

she will not let me touch her on the stomach or anywhere below that, I know I sound like I am whining. I am just venting.

When I tried to go lower with my touching she said NO but she said she felt ok with what we are doing. It leaves me wanting all of her.

I don't self pleasure because its really not pleasure... I am not into porn... .and I don't want to cheat on my wife. Temptation is rough though. Trying to keep my thoughts together.

I was just thinking out loud here on this post... .The feeling I have of rejection is very strong. I just want her to say to me I love you and I want to be with you. I just never hear those words.

Thanks for reading.

 

Dude,

Food for thought.  Fairly quickly in MC there needs to be a choice made.

To push this or not.

You are letting another person determine if you are doing to be celibate or not.  That is not a choice she can make.

It is not a choice you should let her make.

The trick is to bring this up not as a threat but as a choice. 

FF

A marriage is supposed to have both an emotional and physical connection.  Don't let her or anyone else guilt you into thinking otherwise.

3 years?  You really have to look in the mirror and take a long look at your role in how this happened.

I agree that this isn't fair to you- to have her determine that you are celibate or not.

One thing I would consider is the direction this is taking. If this is more sexual activity than has been going on, it may be considered progress- not as much progress as you would like, but there could be some benefit in making progress at her rate, knowing that she has a history of abuse in this area and emotionally, these could be big steps for her.

If this isn't progress then that is something to consider too.

This is something to bring up in MC so that it can be discussed with a moderator.

Sex is important to marriage, but so is emotional connection. I think this is why sexual problems are so prevalent in marriages with BPD. Yet, I do believe it is unfair to subject someone to celibacy.

 

https://youtu.be/Ep2MAx95m20

I think she is talking about "normal" couples, but there is usually some disorder involved with this.

FF

Something is definitely wrong.  What was it like prior to 3 years ago and what happened to bring you to this state?  Was it sudden or gradual?  If you don't want to tell the board I understand, but you need to figure out the answers at least for yourself. 

I think I may have been headed for a sexless marriage before BPDgf split. She was very religious, and anything before marriage was out, but she gave hints that she wasn't going to be into it too much even after. Why? who knows. But her mother must have done a number on her. Also, sex abuse plays a strong role in these cases.

If there's strong religion in your wife's family of origin, maybe she was conditioned to be ashamed of any sex and to guard her... .flower. Sex abuse in childhood would take her to the same place.

Sleeping in a different room might keep you from going bonkers and let you get some sleep.

Sorry this was all a little experience and advice and conjecture, we were never married.

It is your choice if you are willing to put up with this in a marriage or not.

Absent a particularly good (and temporary!) reason** for my wife to do this kind of thing, I would expect I'd have given up in less than a year, and been clear that I wouldn't be living in a sexless marriage. (There are a few possible outcomes there, and a bunch of discussions... .none of which I would expect to be easy for a pwBPD, though!)

Really. Not being sexually compatible will end a marriage. That would be both wanting to have sex with each other... .including the same or similar sexual activities of interest, and frequency of such activities. If you think "twice a day"and she thinks "twice a week" bridging the gap may be possible.

What you describe is too big a gap.


** One good reason to not want sex could well be if she was a victim of sexual abuse. If that is the case, it can be a long process to get over that, involving therapy for her and a (further) extended dry spell for you.

there was some progress the past two days... .

There was a rejection Saturday evening... .I kept my composure  and I quietly went and slept on the couch. We had a "good" day saturday though. In good I mean we went out and worked in the yard together. We also spent time talking about issues which I will address in some other posts. The time we spent talking saturday and sunday led to her being open to some touching (still constricted)

we worked on some of our MC exercises which went well but these exercises are really not getting to the root of our problem but they were enjoyable anyway they helped us interact with each other

Thank you for all of your input.

This will be an issue in MC.

FF, I had watched that video a while back and it made so much sense to me. I probably need to share it with my wife or do you think it would be triggering for a pwBPD?


I believe she is working on this, time will tell though. Also in another post I will address some other issues surrounding this.

This is a good video, and one that I think both people in a relationship could identify with. This is a great thing about this video as it encourages couples to understand better how the other one needs to  feels connected. It also brings up pitfalls that each person contributes and urges the other one to accommodate the other persons needs.

I think there is value in this video for people who are willing to look at themselves- as well as the other person.  Being that this can be chicken and egg, I think it is better to be willing to consider the other person than to hold out that they will do this first, otherwise there is a checkmate.

However, if the other partner is not able to look in their own mirror, they may focus on the parts of the tape that address the other person. Someone who is not as responsive or angry may only blame the other person and not consider their part in it. So, I don't know how effective watching this tape would be with someone with BPD, but I think it is a good tape for people willing to take their own inventory.

And worth a try. Your wife has the low desire. You are naturally angry. But since anger is a turn off, are you willing to not act as angry towards her?

I think the part about not feeling desire until things have started is a very important part. Some people are just wired that way. There has to be a reason that all those books with a shirtless Fabio on the cover sell so well. It isn't just the picture but the romance in the novel that is connected to how the reader feels. This is also a reason why it may not be a bad idea to go along with the petting sessions your wife allows, even if frustrating, as perhaps they could be what she needs to desire more. Yet, it also isn't fair to sex starve you. It would be great if she were more understanding. Inner pain is a block to that. Perhaps MC will help with this.

Hey by faith, Sorry to hear what you are going through.  It seems indicative of a deeper problem in your marriage.  Your job is to identify the problem, if you can.  Once you identify the problem, then you face the choice whether you choose to work through it or not.  LJ

 

I would skip showing her the video, for now. 

Bring the issue up in MC, listen, DO NOT accuse. 

I would keep it simple.  "I want to feel connected with my wife, we have not had sex in 3 years, "

Again, "my wife won't have sex with me, "  (BAD!)

FF

I was 16 years married and now a widow. Marriage is choice you make each and every day... .It's not mystical, magical or anything other than you wake up and chose to be married, or not.  Some days you wish you were bonded permanently to your significant other and some days you wish that you were 10,000 miles away.  In either case, you choose to be married.

What do you want for your life? For me, it's Truth, Love and Honesty... .Intimacy and Companionship. These desires constantly shift emphasis but over a marriage construct a balance that you find happiness, peace and comfort. They are never equal in weight at any given time... .For me, and only me, they must be present in some form.

I hope that you find what you want and make good choices for the time here.

wow... .strange that this post would resurface. It has been almost 3 months since I posted this. Thank you for your response. My deep convictions have kept me in the marriage to make sure I have done all that I know to do to make it work.

The problem that was addressed in this thread is still ongoing. Also along with issue there are many other problems that make this marriage seem past the point of being balanced as you state.


I could not have said this any better. This is what I want in my life. I realize I am going to have to "hurt" someone in order to gain what I want.

Hey by faith, where do things stand at present?  LJ

... .nothing like the confidentiality of the internet to post our most intimate thinking... .  Here goes!... .

I will try to share some of what I have gone through.  I'm not so much an example of what to do, but what happened, and maybe what not to do.

Last year I essentially hit rock bottom.  There was trouble all around in my marriage, but, I had been a proper husband the whole time.  No infidelity, addictions, misbehavior.  I was celibate before, and monogamous after.  Sex was scare, love was gone - replaced by turmoil and loneliness.  In the year prior we had sex maybe a dozen times.  In the 17 years prior it was never a whole lot better, nor more frequent.  Ironically, I started reading religious books on intimacy to see if I was the sicko wanting sex more often (I think a few times a week would keep me balanced).  In my reading I stumbled across a description of Borderline Personality.  That led to a watershed of learning, and understanding, and thereby, my own happiness went up.  I was elated to finally having a rule set that explained her behavior, told me what and why things were the way they are. 

After a few conversations earlier in the year - with her describing, in different words, that she felt like having sex was unwilling (read: rape).  That idea killed anything that could have been sexual for me.  I moved into the basement a few months later. Last year was sexless from about March (at this conversation) and on.  I spent the year making huge strides on my own work. 

Following on to this year, we reached some sort of understanding, certainly facilitated by the rapid growth I have gone through as I worked on me, and learned a great deal about coexisting with a uBPDw.  She opened up a lot about seeing the importance of sex and intimacy, and so forth.  And she had partly come to some of her own discoveries (though I don't know what really she has decided / learned / changed).  We have since eased into having sex again, though I am very clear about making sure it's willing, her initiative, and so forth.  I think at the center, she realized that no sex led to more abandonment, more sex led to company - every once in a while.  There is still a profound, and I suspect unrecoverable, dysfunction in our marriage, but for the times we have sex, it seemed to make the next few days more bearable.  We had a peak this Spring, of a few good months where there was a little energy and mutual happiness.  At present, I think the abyss is returning, and our relationship is showing the structural fractures beneath the surface.  So, I don't think sex will be a solution, improvement, or cure for anything in the long run.  In fact, it has now become a haunting thought wondering what she is really feeling about sex.  I wonder if she is acting, just to manipulate me and fill her needs. 

This presents an idea.  What if you do have sex again and it does not make things better, or makes it worse, or opens the next layer of deep issues and problems?

What if sex is no good after all?

I think it makes a good relationship great, and a bad relationship worse.

As for how to deal with no sex in marriage, with one year being my record, I compensated by filling my time with activities, exercise, lots of time with the kids, and just being busy.  Moving out of the bedroom was a life-saver.  Sleeping in a bed with someone you are afraid to touch for fear of setting her off is no way to live.  I can vouch for the advice that wanting something you can't have leads to unhappiness.  I found ways to not want what I can't have, and that decreases the stress of marriage.

I can't say anything about the morality of self-pleasure when, as a base, you have a sexless marriage.  You're off the ordained plan in a sexless marriage anyway, so, taking care of business on your own is a stop-gap measure, and a lesser of things you could be doing or thinking. 

I think I hear things from you that make it sound like you still love and want your wife.  So, I wish you the very best finding a solution.  God speed.

Well, I was in a marriage for 18 years where he only wanted sex with me maybe once every year or two, but I'm pretty sure porn was the problem. He was also very angry.

This marriage, to BPDh, he complains about not getting enough sex, but we have sex pretty often(on average a couple times a week). I'm open to more sex, and he turns ME down sometimes, which makes me feel he has no right to complain about not "getting enough". It's a control thing, I'm sure, and just liking to complain.

Also, I've stopped finishing him off with bj's, although I'll still get him started that way, and I've put an end to anal which is super painful for me(we'd never had anal, until he made it one of his "demands" when we reconciled). He likes sex that hurts or humiliates me, and to me, that is NOT making love, that is just about dominance and control. I would never, ever want to hurt him sexually. Since I've put a boundary around those two things though, he complains, and is saying he is not happy with us sexually.

Sex with someone who was abused sexually(not the case for my BPDh), or someone that has a PD, is likely to be something that is not easy to manage. I try to accomodate him, but no longer to the point that I end up hurt, and for him, it's all or nothing. He can't just be happy that we have decent sex(although I secretly consider him my worst partner ever due to his selfishness, and desire to hurt me, and total lack of connection with me). No, he wants all his way.

Heck, in a way, if he had been sexually abused, I would feel I at least had an explanation for how he is sexually. As it is, I don't know why he's like this, and why he can't just take the attitude of being happy for what he has: a wife that loves him, and is willing to have sex with him.

SamewiseGamgee:  I loved your post, and how insightful it was. I think your quote is amazing. In my case, because the anger and disrespect and blame and hostility were so great towards me, sex was yet another place for him to take his anger out on me, hence the angry sex. Makes total sense. What you said really helped me a lot. Thanks.

Two things help bring sex back into my marriage, though not 100% where I wanted there were some improvements.

1. Going out more and doing things for myself and hanging out 'with the guys'.  As counter-intuitive as this sounds, and as difficult it could be dealing with her rages or silent treatments when I did this, I think it helped lower my resentment in the relationship, gave me time to emotionally recharge, and be more open myself for initiating.

2. Losing weight, working out and dressing better.  As part of self-care, I started eating better, lost 25 pounds, and started exercising regularly.  This made me feel more attractive and I believe made me more attractive to my wife.

The upside and downside of both these things is that it definitely triggered more abandonment fears in my wife, especially as she noticed other women were paying attention to the 'new me'.  This created more conflict but I can't help but wonder if the sex increased as some sort of way to try and 'step up her game' and 'hold onto me' as her abandonment fears were getting triggered more often.

Also, I wonder if my embracing 'radical acceptance' of her helped me let go of resentments or internalizing negative feelings at the times she rejected my advances - also making me more attractive and taking pressure away from her.

I have these thoughts as to why my wife now accepts and wants sex.

1) Control  - when I wanted it, and tried (for the first 17 years) she usually rejected me, put it off, or delayed, or put requirements on it.  Now, I've showed that I won't die without her, and can get along just fine without her and without sex.  Also, I now see her as the whole "her" thus reducing how much I wanted to have sex with her, or find her attractive.  Thus, as far as control, if I don't want it, then she does. 

2) Ultimatum - not really an ultimatum, but, one of those things that in her system, if she does what I want (sex) then I'm obligated to stay, and or do what she wants.  There is the same pitfall when your pwBPD wants a list of things to do to make you stay.  Once she does those things, guess what, you're obligated to stay.  If she has sex, and acts like she wants to, then she fulfills what she thinks she is supposed to do to keep me.

3) Manipulation - good old manipulation.

4) Compensating - feeling good during sex is better than nothing.  I took away her rush by getting to the point of totally not reacting to her rages anymore, keeping boundaries and keeping my healthy distance.  I stopped feeding her need.  I suspect that the anger and chaos that she dragged me through met her needs for connection, her emotionally charged "intimacy" in a sense. I believe this is based on her childhood in a verbally and emotionally abusive home.  So, when the violence is gone, the only way left to connect is sex.

Hey Samwize, Assuming your four reasons are true, and they probably are in some combination or another if not altogether, then I would ask: what kind of a sex life is that?  It seems like there are a lot of strings attached to your romantic life, which might take the fun out of it.  It sounds more like a power struggle than genuine intimacy.  Though I guess my sex life with my BPDxW was just as messed up, in the sense that it was frequently breakup/makeup sex, which in retrospect seems sort of contrived.  Now that I'm on the outside, sex is more of a mutual sharing based on honest affection, which is nice and feels good.  Of course, I'm not married to a pwBPD anymore, so it's a different ballgame altogether.   :)

LuckyJim

@ LuckyJim - Yeah, it's confusing and conflicting.  I'm wondering what I'm doing here too.  Those four reasons I'm sure aren't the only reasons, or that they are all present at once, if at all.  however, sometimes it just seems like we're both doing it just to do it, or doing it to get our fix, regardless of who else is there.  I don't know.  I also heard somewhere that sex was supposed to be fun.

Maybe if I had a healthy married life to compare with, I'd be better able to say what's good or not.

Many things point me to believe that I've simply been here too long - and a lot of damage is done.  But, that's a topic for another post.

@OP - sorry for the hijack, I meant just to offer my experiences to learn from.

Hi byfaith,

I'm really sorry that you're going through this.

There's clearly a broad range of different experiences here, but there's no doubt that mental health issues can play hell with a couple's sex life.

It was a huge issue in my relationship and sadly we never found a way through. I tried everything that I could think of and I went through various phases from anger (I felt rejected and unloved), negotiation and exploration (I tried to discuss the subject as gently and non confrontationally as I could), therapy (MC) and when eventually ran out of ideas and hope profound hopelessness and depression.

My ex suffered from depression, (family history), was sexually abused as a child and had a lot of BPD traits. Intimacy and trust were huge issues.

I also made my share of mistakes. Repeated ejection breeds anger and frustration and that destroys intimacy.

I also had a strong tendency to blame all of our problems on her childhood abuse. I loved her and really wanted our relationship to work but pointing the finger at someone and saying that's it's all their fault because they're damaged or dysfunctional doesn't solve anything.

Building a healthy intimate relationship with someone who has a history of CSA takes a huge amount of courage, guts and resilience for both partners. And even with good therapy healing is protracted and there's no guarantee a relationship will survive.

You cannot force anyone to get help but you can love and respect yourself enough to step away when you realise that staying in relationship is destructive

Reforming

Thank you everyone for sharing your experiences. I do not take for granted the time it takes people to read and then share from their experience.


My gut feeling tells me I don't think we will find a way through. We went to MC yesterday together. It was raw emotion. I personally believe there is too much for my wife to overcome. I listened to her responses and watched her body language and it told me that this is never going to change.

It makes me sad. My wife suffered CSA we don't discuss it much. We have in the past and I only will if she brings it up.

Her last marriage I believe did ultimate harm to her. She may suffer some PTSD from it. She was married to this person for less than 2 years and there was sexual trauma from what she describes. She put herself in situations that I am sure that made her self loathe. She hated this man she described to me how she was plotting to kill him this is before the divorce was final. After the divorce was final she "used" him and he "used" her. For probably 2 more years. She disclosed to me the things he wanted and what she did to keep financial support flowing to her. I find this out after I have been married to her for over two years. He would pay her thousands of dollars to go off somewhere for a few days and she would get herself looking hot and go sit at a "classy" bar and wait for someone to hit on her. He would then get the guy to tell him that he liked what he saw and he would talk him into going up to the hotel room and he would want to watch her and this guy have sex together. She told me that she would begin taking her clothes off and then would at the last minute refuse to do what he wanted. She told me he put a gun to her head and threatened to kill her because she would not do this stuff.

Do I feel sorry for her? She did not have to do any of that. I am feeling kind of sick just typing this crap but this is just the tip of the iceberg. She basically had sick twisted sex with a man she hated for almost two years just to keep the bills paid. I guess that might mess with someone's mind.


I don't think a healthy intimate relationship is going to happen.

Byfaith,

 

It is likely that you are right.  You know your wife better than any of us.

First, take time for yourself to think this through.

Second, where does this leave you.

Final, what kind of choice does your answer to 1 and 2 lead you to.  What kind of choice will you give your wife?

Can you honor her choices?

Can you honor your choices?

What has to give in order for both choices to be honored?

FF

@samwize

I am seriously thinking about moving out of the bedroom. There are two rooms downstairs that I want to take over they are not being used by anyone. I would use one as my bedroom and one as my "living area". That would be a bold move on my part.

I need my space and not sleeping in the same bed would probably curb the sexual feelings I have OR at least be a little easier to deal with if she is not laying right next beside me.

When we walked into MC office yesterday he had two chairs facing one another. I had to look at her in the face and tell her what I needed or what was on my mind. Then she had her turn.

a major subject of the session was how to deal with the issue of her son ( he suffers with paranoid schizo) This problem is not going away. She is going to let her son's illness drag her into a black hole and destroy her.

She said that she has nothing left to give me emotionally because she is emotionally drained from her son.

When its comes to an intimate relationship, the MC told her that she has a man who wants to be intimate with her on all levels ( I paraphrased here) He was addressing her directly and I saw her purse her lips and close her eyes, like it was a painful thought.

I let her know yesterday during MC that I have to let go of the "fear" that I have of her responses to me. I never blamed her for anything yesterday but let her know how I felt how everything is effecting me.

to be continued... .

Hey FF

I think I am understanding what you are asking

That is all I do is think about it and pray about it... .I have this scale and I keep weighing everything in it.

It leaves me in the cold.

In my mind it leaves me with the choice of ending this marriage. I can't seem to get into the frame of mind of actually doing it.

Somewhere inside of me I think I have this sliver of hope that a small light will turn on and she will slowly move towards healing.

I guess the only choice I can give my wife is to find a way to reconnect with me on an intimate level ( us to connect) or our marriage is over.

The MC told us that is what we need to do. He gave us a 7 week exercise to build fondness back into our relationship. I read through them and my wife rolled hers up and stuck it in her purse and she went home and literally sat in the recliner the rest of the day and into the night.

yes I can honor her choice if she decides not to pursue changes, can I honor my choice?

What has to give in order for both choices to be honored?

If her choice is not to pursue healing and my choice is to not live in this condition I would be the one who would have to leave the marriage. So really what would have to give is my inner self putting someone out kicking them to the curb. If I loathed the woman I would not have an issue saying good riddance. I will reach a breaking point, of course only I know what that breaking point is.

did I answer your questions you posed to me?

I feel for you. You have some very deep, very real, and justified concerns.  None of this will solve itself.  I am thinking of the example of a beloved pet that is sick beyond recovery.  At some point, we decide it's time to let go with love and put the animal down.  -- eeeks, that sounded drastic.  What I am trying to say, is that love, even true love, cannot cure all things.  It cannot take away the past.  We all can heal and grow.  But sometimes, I think recovery from childhood scars may take more time than this lifetime, and are solved in eternity.  

I hope you find a path that answers both your concerns, and your wife's, however, I think they may not be mutually sustainable.  I recall hearing of couples that have lived happily without any sexual contact at all, but I don't know the "secret.".  

As for moving out of the bedroom, it has to be you.  She will never suggest it likely, and she won't like it.  I had to do it.  I could not sleep, almost at all.  I had anxiety attacks lying in the same room with her.  I'd lay awake some night, in cold-sweat fear that she would start to talk - because it led to a litany of blame and angst.  I was afraid to touch her by accident, since that might wake her up.  I also avoided her because touching might lead to me thinking of sex - which would result in rejection, or subsequent hurt.  I would have heart palpitations, shortness of breath, and difficulty breathing, I might wake in panic suddenly when in bed with her.  So, to save my life, literally, I moved out of the bedroom.  I had to make it a unilateral decision.  

I hope it is different for you.  You might try saying that you don't want to pressure her, since you are thinking about intimacy when together.  You can say you need to rest elsewhere, but can spend more waking time together.  



Addendum: some mornings I wake up alone and feel as though I have been in a coma, and have to restart my life force since I've been "gone."  I sleep very, very well on some nights.  Small freedoms are priceless.

 

Byfaith,

I think I would pose the question to MC about moving out of room.

I am guessing he would say the healthy thing is to give your wife a choice.  Perhaps he would say to stay in the room for 7 weeks until the exercise is over.  (Personally, that is my advice to you.  focus hard on his exercise and see where it goes)

But, let's fast forward to where you "need to do something".  Whenever that is.  Give her a clear choice.  "Honey, I need to progress back to intimacy, or I need to gain some separation"  "My desire is to proceed to intimacy."

"If that is not a choice you can support now, would you like to remain in this room, while I move to downstairs or would you like to move to downstairs"

"Understand that my desire is for more intimacy and I don't plan for this to be permanent."


Break break (military radio term for totally new subject coming)

My gut tells me until a new living situation is found for son, this is all for naught.  Maybe not permanent, but something where he can spend majority time somewhere else getting the care he needs.

Thoughts?

FF

I'm so sorry, byfaith. You are living in a desert with no hope of an oasis. CSA and a schizophrenic adult stepson--this is certainly not what you signed up for when you got married.

So the question is, if not now, when do you see yourself ending this marriage?

It would be one thing if your wife acknowledged her issues and sought treatment, was willing for her son to move to a group home, and began working to build a bridge toward intimacy.

But that doesn't look to be happening. How long can you live this way? What needs to change within yourself to give you permission to make a different choice?

I think Cat Familiar has found the question.  Sometimes asking the right question is the key to solving problems.

Answering this question does not bind you to make that change.  But, my gut tells me that until your wife see's  that you are serious about making changes, it is unlikely she will face whatever the issue(s) is/may be.

I also want to join Cat in saying a heartfelt "sorry dude, that sucks, " 

Focus on self-care,

FF

to boil it down to the most simplistic answer, when I don't give a shred of crap about anyone's wellbeing except my own and I am willing to take all of the pain of severing a marriage.

Hi byfaith,

I think there other members have offered some good advice. I know that doesn't make your choices any easier.

Quite some time before my relationship ended I went to see CBT therapist. My primary goal was dealing with procrastination but almost immediately our session focussed on my relationship and the lack of sexual intimacy. My therapist suggested that I raised the subject with my ex and explain that I needed to establish a definite timeline for some attempted progress.

I followed his advice and tried to gently and firmly explain to my ex that I couldn't continue with our relationship if we couldn't renew sexual intimacy. She felt hurt and resentful and the deadline came and went without her taking any steps.

Shortly after this point I got very depressed. Deep down I felt that if my ex really loved me she would make a genuine effort to try and work through our intimacy problem. I wasn't expecting miracles, but some effort from her to give me hope.

Looking back this was the death knell our relationship. I really loved my ex and I think I can understand how hard it is to put down this boundary knowing that it could very possibly lead to end of your marriage. It's very sad but for me staying with my ex without the physical intimacy that I craved did not save the relationship. We were left trapped an awful slow death that poisoned us both and the longer it lasted the more hopeless and powerless I felt.

No matter how dark it might seem it's worth remembering that you both have choices to make. She can choose to get help and try to overcome these difficulties - healing from CSA is enormously challenging but it's definitely possible.  She can also choose to ignore your needs and stick with the status quo. You cannot control her choices but you can make your own.

You can chose to stay and learn to live with consequences of this decision but I think it's important to honestly confront what this will mean. Or you can chose to leave with love, but a deep recognition that you deserve to be loved in the way that you need.

My heart goes out to you

Reforming

Might be reading too much into words.  Why do you have to take all the pain?

FF

maybe I worded it wrong

If ending a marriage was not painful, people would not be as torn as they are as whether to stay or leave. Even though things are to the point of giving up on this, there is a level of love and caring for another person that I personally cannot dismiss.

I also know that if and when I call it quits, things will get ugly and nasty really quick on her part and I will have to deal with that and make my countermeasures etc. If this does end, it will not be pretty.

I know I can't predict the future and maybe I am trying to think too far in advance. All the ugly stuff that will go along with this I put into the pain category and I will have to find a way to "take" it and deal with it.

maybe it's like procrastinating on a painful surgery, after you go through the pain you are better off in the long run 

Right, bf, It's about trading short-term pain for long-term happiness.  No doubt it will get ugly if and when you decide to leave.  The pain category that you mention is real and, in my experience, you have to be prepared for emotional rough sledding.  On the other hand, out there on the horizon is a much happier place.  Many people on this site understandably have a fear of the unknown, which keeps them stuck.  What I didn't realize before I went through the wringer of divorce is that the unknown is also where happiness resides.

Suggest you listen to your gut feelings.

LuckyJim

Getting out was no picnic, but I'd been through violence, infidelity, financial upheaval and more in the marriage, so the ordeal, in retrospect, wasn't nearly as bad as the marriage was.

And once I began the steps toward freeing myself, my joy, which had gone underground for many years, returned.

Oddly enough, I lost a lot of weight without trying. My ex always liked super skinny women, like Kate Moss in her "heroin chic" days. And even though I was at a normal weight, he bugged me about being fat. No matter what I tried, I could never lose those 15 pounds that would put me into what he considered the desirable range.

After I broke up with him, I lost all that weight and more in one month, eating healthy. My energy returned and I felt and looked years younger. Losing the albatross around my neck, my stress levels declined and I felt truly happy, in spite of going through an ugly and contentious divorce.

Now that I've immersed myself in another marriage to a pwBPD, I have to learn that lesson all over--about taking care of myself, instead of trying to be his caretaker. However this husband is kind and his personality disorder is mild in comparison. Yet it is so true that we codependents and recovering codependents seem to seek out people to help, so do be careful if this is the path you choose.

Byfaith,

I understand what you mean.  You were not implying that you had to take her pain. 

It is likely that you are right, it could/will get ugly.

The best you can do is offer clear choices and hopefully get clear responses.

Such as:  You have made it clear that you love her and want to be intimate.  My assumption from your story is that she didn't tell you NO, outright, but certainly implied that she didn't have much emotion left.  (Do I have that about right?).

It is loving and kind on your part to give her time to work through this.  7 weeks for the counselors program seems very generous.  My guess is that you won't be perfect (but who is?) during this time, but I would best you will try your heart out.

At the end of 7 weeks, it would be reasonable, assuming no intimacy by then to ask where we are at, and if this is going to happen.  Yes or no.  If yes, then when. 

If no, then a follow up question is, do you expect me to stay in a marriage with no intimacy?  (keep putting ball back in her court)

If she says no, then perhaps it won't be nasty.

If she says yes, she expects you to stay, then you need to be prepared to give her a clear yes or no.  (I'm assuming you will say you will not stay)

Perhaps the MC can help explain this to her.  If she really expects you to stay, doubtful you will listen.

But at this point, you have a clear view of what she really thinks of you.

Hard stuff, but trying to lay out a concrete plan that you can follow.

FF

byfaith,

It's clear from what you've written that you really love and care for your wife. I think I understand how sad you must feel - you're in a really tough spot

Are you seeing a therapist on your own? Professional support from a skilled and objective T can help clarify what's going on. You won't get this in MC. It doesn't work that way

If your wife has suffered CSA then 7 weeks of therapy won't make much of dint and giving an unrealistic deadline will just make things worse

It generally takes a lot longer - a couple of years - to make meaningful progress and from what I've read it's tough ride for both partners. Things usually get a lot worse before they get better.

Do you think your wife is willing to get help? It's takes a lot of courage and strength to work through this stuff and she has got to make that decision herself.

Do you think you have the resources to deal with this process? My ex began therapy and promptly had an affair.

Nobody can tell you how to make these choices.

Keep posting

Reforming

Can someone define CSA please?

My assumption is childhood sex abuse, but want to make sure

Thanks for asking. My first thought was community supported agriculture (those farm-share programs), but that didn't seem right... .

Hi Formflier,

CSA is childhood sexual abuse

Reforming

Just so I'm clear, ByFaith said his wife:

- was forced into sex WITH OTHER MEN by a previous partner

- and was held AT GUNPOINT when she didn't comply

I can completely understand her reluctance to have sex! That must be incredibly painful. And as others have said, this is not an issue that can be fixed by MC or threats. She will need MANY years of professional individual therepy.

For ByFaith: this is a horrible situation to be in. Of course you love her, and want to stay with her. But of course you cannot go without sex - that would be a very painful existance (as you have said). Yet on the other hand you cannot force her to change, you cannot will her to "get over this", and there is a chance that it may be 5+ years more before she does. And even then - it's not just "fixed" - it will be ALWAYS there. Hopefully her pain and anxiety will get less and less over time, but you never know when it will resurface. (My wife has childhood sexual trauma - but was never molested or raped. Despite her being over 40, and us being married for 15+yrs, I can still see it affecting our sex lives perhaps weekly. And I'm sure it affects her more than that but she doesn't show me)

Do you love her enough to accept you may never have her? Love is not unconditional - everyone has their deal breakers. It just really sux that this is not a deal breaker that she can control. Can you punish her for it? Should YOU be punished for it? Sometimes the situation just sux.

Can I add on to that?

I am focusing right now on the mindset that that it is what it is.  I have learned a ton about BPD, and I was elated to find out that there is a reason, and rules, behind my uBPDw's behavior.  That was a big step for me.  But, that was not enough.  Understanding helped me, a lot.  Now that I understand the past, I still have to move forward.  I have done that now by looking at each moment (if I can) and saying "yup, this is bad, but, it is what it is"

I can't cure it. I can't control it. It's not my fault.

All I can do is live with it, around it, or leave it.

Your situation might be similar.  You cannot change the past. I can't imagine how much hurt you and your wife may be in, but, it is done.   

I didn't realize the extent of the sexual abuse, but that is extensive.

I can not imagine (heaven forbid) what your wife went through. She was basically raped at gunpoint at the whim of someone she loved and trusted. Not only raped but betrayed.

It does not surprise me that she can not trust someone enough to be that vulnerable with them. This is serious trauma.

I agree that this is something to be radically accepted on your part. This was not her fault, but it is who she is. On the other hand, if she is unable to have sex with anyone, she needs to be clear about it- to herself. It isn't fair to expect sex from someone not able to participate in it.

However, I also think it is unfair of her to subject someone to a sexless marriage if that is what that person needs. Perhaps it would help to consider the aspect of love - as truth, light, and the best for each other. IMHO, I wouldn't want to subject someone to the agony of a sexless marriage unless he wanted that as well. Is your unhappiness the best for you? Is her being married to someone who she can not be intimate good for her or you?

Or can you accept that sex will not likely be a part of your marriage, at least not now. Yet there may be affection- hugging, etc, but not actual sex. Perhaps deciding, one way or the other can put this issue to rest for you.

Yes it was traumatic. She was already divorced from this man. She did not love and trust this man. She talked to me how she wanted to kill him. This is before the the divorce was final.  She chose to move back in with him after the divorce was final. She chose financial gain over self respect. What she did was planned ahead of time and she was promised money if she did it.

she got to the point in the whole deal where she backed out before any sex took place when they were all in the room together. When she backed out and her ex was raging at her for backing out, that is when the gun was used. She knew all this crap would happen. (maybe not the gun part)

I can tell you right now I would never have stayed involved with her if I had known all this. She had me believe that when she divorced this man she was done with him when the divorce papers were signed. 

Correct me if I am wrong but rape is not a choice. She had a choice to not put herself in these preplanned situations. This is one example out of many. Physical abuse before her divorce, sexual perversion instigated by her then husband. so the divorce is FINAL and she still goes back for more.

All because of $$$$$. I am sorry if this seemed raw but when I end up thinking about it I have pity on her and then I don't and then I feel betrayed by her all over for not telling me the truth about this before we were married.

I regret making the previous post. It brought up a lot of bad thoughts.

I had not posted about it yet but we had a decent weekend. My wife opened up to some more sexual contact. I am not being negative but there are so many other issues along with the sexual problems that they all seem to be equally destructive to our relationship at this point.

That does make the situation more complicated. It is hard to discern choice. Did she need the money? Was she desperate to take care of her child? This doesn't make excuses for her, but sheds light on her predicament. People do resort to desperate things when it comes to their kids.

Regardless, she has been traumatized and you are dealing with a sexless marriage. Both are tough.

It isn't the same, but I have read about marriages where one spouse realizes they are gay, or is gay and marries anyway. I have also read about these marriages where one spouse is a trans.

So here are two people who can dearly love each other in many ways, yet never really be sexually fulfilled with each other.  What do they do? It isn't about who is right or who is wrong- just that to be who they are does not include full sexual intimacy.

I imagine people work this out in different ways. I imagine some people stay together as a family, but make some arrangements for sexual fulfillment. Some people may separate.

Is it possible to make a decision without someone being wrong- just about the situation?

As to the previous post- nobody knows your wife, and as for me, not being judgemental. As a wise man once said " only someone who has not ever made some kind of error can throw the first stone".  I look at both of you with sympathy for a tough situation.

I hope so.

I have never really told her how strong I felt about being lied to. She "needed" money and her son at the time was 15 years old.

People do resort to desperate things when it comes to their kids. 

as you know her son now is a major issue ( in our life because of mental illness) and she has done desperate things concerning her son since we have been married, too long of a story to tell but it involved her leaving me to try to connect with a previous lover to give her son a better life opportunity.

we are still trying to work things out though. She has mentioned ptsd before. I may mention again to her seeing her own T aside from our MC.

I think FF said it- but the threads about her affectionate relationship with her son have also implied the closeness between them and that the marriage is affected by this- the son is part of the relationship.

One thing to consider is if the relationship with the son takes precedence over her relationship with you.

Without making her wrong- she is who she is, and she loves her son. She has choices. Those choices are to put him first and to not have sex ( or be able to have sex)

Your choice is to be in a marriage on those terms or not.

This is tough but I think by making the choice, then you can move on from this.