BPDFamily.com

Guys

One thing I have noticed is that everybody is focussed hard on the BPD, which is fair. It's the title on the board after all... .

But one thing from my endless studying that I've found is that my girl definitely had very strong Narcissistic traits, then I watched this last night. Basically it's saying that a narcissist in the domestic situation, one that gets into a partnership, is almost certainly co-morbid with BPD. That obviously works both ways.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UM_58j_pdA

I'm not saying it's right or wrong but, when I focus on the narcissistic side, she becomes a lot less palatable and easier to detach from. Just a thought of course, my thoughts might be different tomorrow - same as everybody else!

My ex surly exibits narcissist traits, I could count on one hand how many times she asked me anything about my day or how I felt about anything, her way or no way. She was always right, never said sorry and selfish, cold and mean. She cut me to the bone with cruel sarcasms and put my children down, ridiculed them and called them horrible names. She was totally unfair about everything.

Wow! This really makes me sound crazy huh? Lol

I must be severely damaged myself to put up with her for more than 5 minutes let alone 4 years! Sigh

Don't forget, don't forget, don't forget she is... .TOXIC STAY AWAY JERRY! LOL

"If you Dance with the devil don't ask why you're still in hell"

Oh well I am better for this experience.

Thank you Frustrated, you bring up a great point. Have a great day!

Have a look at this one as well, it might make you think. It basically says when you live with a borderline for that length of time, you take on the emotional dysregulation to an extent yourself. It's complex PTSD.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0k5DvjiRNU&ebc=ANyPxKqsA5oF-41cA-uX5iYleq80c34xTvRdxtpNS49PIjbPqTpS-l0cAM9340PpNs3bsK6tF5om-Uc8TQdMg4m41DzP7GKFfQ

That came out massively long for some reason, I don't know why!

I really like this bloke, he's doing psychology in layman's terms and he's helping me understand what was going on. He has also experienced it.

Focus on the narcissism and they seem less of a wounded duck and more of a flat out nightmare that deserves to be forgotten.

why do you think that is?

Thanks again Frustrated,

I have long believed I am suffering PTSD.

Example, try to wrap your mind around this?

I go to pick up my son one afternoon last fall, me and the ex are in a relationship mind you, as I'm carrying our son out her front door she proceeds to call someone, I overhear her say she wanted to speak to an officer in regard to her safety and protection. I panicked of coarse and took my phone and called the police as well asking for an officer to immediately come to here residence thinking I'm getting ambushed.

After a lengthy and incredibly embarrassing talk with them, "they do not understand crazy" my ex ended her call. I ended mine, I then asked her what the h*** that was all about. She replies and I quote, I was calling them about my concerns for my safety from myself.

Yep, no one outside these rooms or those who have not lived with a BPD could begin to believe this or understand. I just have to laugh, she tried to destroy me and it just made me stronger.

Jokes on you babe :)

Thanks again FBloke

Why do I think that is? I think the BPD side is all about the vulnerability, they can't help it because they feel everything so strongly.

I have an impression of the narcissist as a much more cold, calculating person who sets out to hurt. And I have seen that in my own relationship, I have felt it, questioned it, put it to one side and pretended it couldn't have been like that.

It was like that.

And JerryRG I could tell you stories as well. Like for a few weeks I had sex issues, it happens to us all right? Stress, whatever... .

Well she wanted to go to the cinema, I said OK, took her and guess what the film she so desperately wanted to see was? 'Get Hard'.

I cannot believe I didn't dump her in the foyer right there and then... .I actually sat through that film and pretended nothing was wrong and I hadn't seen what she was doing, that's how conditioned I had become to accept her rubbish by that point.

I actually don't agree that narcissists set out to hurt. I think that is more like antisocial personality disorder. I think narcissists are simply blind to the pain their actions cause, because they don't quite get that other minds exist.

Relevant passage from DSM V:

2. Impairments in interpersonal functioning (a or b):

a. Empathy: Impaired ability to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others; excessively attuned to reactions of others, but only if perceived as relevant to self; over- or underestimate of own effect on others.

b. Intimacy: Relationships largely superficial and exist to serve self-esteem regulation; mutuality constrained by little genuine interest in others' experiences and predominance of a need for personal gain

... .my POV on this subject: my mother is extremely narcissistic. Probably NPD, though she would never in a million years submit to psychiatric testing. That has not made it in any way easier to detach from her. Maybe different because she's my mom, but I guarantee that a narcissist can suck you in, too, and when you realize they never exactly cared about you, you're stuck even worse. A primal drive to make them care takes over and keeps you stuck in a hopeless relationship. (Or has me, anyhow.)

Oh yes, my ex definitely is a mix of BPD and the covert narcissist. He is somatic and cerebral, in that he is really smart and wants to be recognized for his brain (cerebral) but as he looks really hot he is admired a lot for his looks and uses his looks (somatic) for getting supply through hitting on everything with a pulse.

When I found this out it made it easier for me to get further detached.

Of course I keep wondering at times about how much of him is BPD and how much is NPD but in the end that doesn't really matter; disordered remains disordered.

It's just this human trait of wanting to grasp what it is, to understand what is underneath. It is why we have turned detectives and find out about what could be wrong with our ex SOs in the first place  *)

I do think for me acting as a detective has also become a thing because my ex was so secretive about his past and spoke little about himself or his background (and because I can tend to become obsessive about things and people). This lead me to trying to find out more on who his friends back home are, and with a bit of online digging I have found someone who is either a really good longtime friend or his best friend, and the guy is c r e e p y. This friend regularly posts comments or pics of stuff he is into. Which include being a Druid (ok), Wicca (ok), psychedelica (uhm... no thanks), a creepy William S. Burroughs character without a conscience (seriously?), a particular American -I don't even want to mention his name- who had a cult group who he killed a film actress with in 1969 (are you for frigging real here?) and the book written by a certain German dictator and all round evil sicko who killed off quite a few million people (WOW, are you nuts?). So good friend is an absolute nut job. THAT made detaching even easier. I already didn't like the people at the office he used to hang out with most (cold, lacking in empathy, tend to laugh when someone gets hurt) but this has made me more convinced than ever that I might feel compassion for my ex, stuck in his private little hell he can never escape, but I want no part of him or his life.

What this Richard Grannon says about covert narcissists latching on to real ones https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-WVLZXLyO-M    I think is really true.

These videos seem really good to me. It is explained in layman' terms and he's really funny to boot  :)

theres a lot of wisdom in that. sometimes we get stuck putting too much emphasis on the good qualities of our exes and the good times we shared with them. we saw many sides. the truth is shes all of those sides, and thats a confusion many of us have. if our exes were only their good or bad sides, thats where wed put our focus.  

labels and what they mean are less relevant than the behavior that you felt, questioned, put to one side and pretended it couldnt have been like that. have you explored that in writing? it did wonders for me. you can share with us too!

Steelwork, I don't buy that at all, or she was Antisocial as well, or it just doesn't matter. She was cruel, deliberately cruel. She did it to make herself feel good.

As for writing it, I could, I'm a journalist and copywriter and I should really get back to that if I want to keep a roof over my head :)

Maybe soon.

Bibi, yep, I turned into a detective and I was even testing her and her sister's reactions to things, saying no to them, laughing in their face, dismissing their 'needs' as unimportant. Sucking up to them, giving them everything they want. Just to see what happened, by the end.

it still hurt when I told her I didn't want her around anymore, I have to admit. But I think I knew enough by that point to accept it, to an extent at least.

I don't think detaching from my ex was easier because I think narcissists are necessarily more calculating. I think their behaviour still comes from pain and they cannot respond in a different way. In essence they come from the same place as a pwBPD. But it made it easier for me because a guy with a BPD/NPD mix with some OCD thrown in made it too complex for me. To handle or to grasp. His NPD side also means he latches on to other narcissists. And having this very complex man in my life was too much already, I didn't want to have to deal with his narcissistic friends on top of him too.

What is it you don't buy? The DSM criteria for NPD?

I'm suggesting that what you describe sounds like APD. Which is why I find this youtube therapist to be unhelpful. He seems to be perpetuating this confusion.

I would probably react like a crazy person after a while to anyone who was laughing in my face, sucking up to me, and dismissing me by turns.

One of Richard Grannon's videos, I'd have to find it, could be really useful for you I think. It is essentially saying that some people are determined to defend the abuser, no matter what, even when you're trying to help them.

By that point she had been toxic for a long time and beaten me down, my understanding what went on preceded a fight back to regain my dignity. Part of that was testing her and showing her that I could do exactly the same thing to her that she had done to me and that she couldn't ruffle my feathers anymore. I had to show her that I was strong and that I could mess with her head just as easily as she messed with mine, SO MANY TIMES before.

Should I have walked away? Yes, but part of me wanted to get back to the old days still then, to do that I needed her respect back and that seemed the way to do it. Was it the right way? No. Did it achieve what I wanted? No. Did I know that at the time? No... .

Do you mean me? I'm not defending anyone's behavior. There seems to be an idea that if you are not vilifying someone you are defending them. I'm also not trying to help anyone except myself, since I no longer have any relationship with my ex.


It does not sound like it was healthy for you to be involved in this dance of testing and fighting back.

It also sounds like that might have been making matters worse in your relationship, and maybe that was ultimately useful if it pushed things to a breaking point and got you out of there.

Anger is a really important stage for some people in their detachment. I sometimes think I need to be angrier. I just want to be as honest as possible with myself in the process, and part of that means not attributing evil intent to my ex just to make myself angry.

Your ex might have had evil intent. I don't know. So maybe staying focused on that will help you detach.

All fair points and no it wasn't healthy, but it felt like the right thing at the time :) How many of us can say that about crazy things we tried to do to make everything OK again?

I think I need to see her clearly, for what she is, with no FOG, the good and the bad. I looked up to her too much, now I need to look down on her for some of the awful, awful things she did. It's just what I need right now.

Whether she was Antisocial, narcissistic, pure BPD, I don't think it matters. I'm judging the behaviour rather than the condition and I cannot buy that she was a helpless passenger in all of this.

I know what you're saying about this guy, he does dumb things down a bit, but I think maybe some black and white thinking is what I needed and clear explanations help us think about these things.

Even he says it, don't get caught up in the diagnosis, if you're being abused then that is enough. My original point was don't get caught up in the BPD aspect, because it makes them sound like just as much of a victim. It is almost always co-morbid with something else, whatever it is that makes them behave this way, and focusing on that part can help me and others detach from them.

why do you think focusing on BPD makes our exes sound like a victim? personality disorders arent a hierarchy of good vs evil.


|iiii

That's an interesting point, but anecdotally from reading the posts that's not the impression I get from the people that are writing on this board. Maybe it's just an impression, but as we've all learned in the past, perspective can be everything and very skewed... .:)

I think people talk much more about 'the' BPD, they try and make the condition responsible. A Narcissist, meanwhile, is more or less reviled and they are less sympathetic creatures. Their actions seem more deliberate, controlled and malignant.

I guess if I were to give a visual aid to this then BPD gets treated like a lost kitten, basically good but confused and scared, whereas a narcissist is a snake, equally lost but just different in the way it looks and goes about things. They're both animals, but the kitten gets a lot more sympathy.

But the kitten is a tiger kitten, and it will rip you apart for no good reason one day... .

And I do believe from reading a lot of these stories that there are co-morbid disorders going on isolating it to BPD opens up the whole victim angle. Whereas accepting they could be narcissistic, antisocial and downright cruel people at times too can be a revealing insight that some people are denying to themselves. I would have just a few months ago.

I could be wrong, of course :) I'm not the authority on anything, I'm just finding what works for me and if it's useful for someone else then awesome.

I think my ex is, on a very ordinary level, not as nice a person as he made himself out to be. I mean, he talked a good game and he has a lot of people fooled--not just me. But when push came to shove and there was nothing he needed from me anymore, he was a real jerk who hurt my feelings badly. I don't need any diagnostic criteria to arrive at this conclusion.

My ex husband was a diagnosed narcissist and I found it easier to detach from him than from my BPD ex, although BPD ex also exhibits narcissistic traits. I would not describe him as a narcissist, just with traits.

My ex husband was a grandiose narcissist and I think I found it easier to detach because his overt self-centredness and grandiosity, together with his lack of empathy, manifested in ways that were easier to leave behind. They appalled me and also I didn't experience the deep enmeshment I felt with exBPD. I found it easier to "read" his narcissim.

Although exBPD shows narcissistic traits, BPD is definitely uppermost - he's a quiet BPD, waiflike, and I think that resonated more with my co-dependence, and his internalisation much more difficult to discern - and more difficult to disentangle myself from. Perhaps it's down to the non's personality - whether we find it easier to detach from narcissism than BPD?

Thanks for posting the links FB, I will view them.

thats really what im driving at Frustratedbloke. it sounds like youre trying to see your ex as "a less sympathetic creature". thats okay. you dont need a label, or to separate her respective diagnoses in order to do that.

people do get caught up in labels, seeing everything through the lens of a disorder, or placing too much emphasis on a diagnosis. a condition should be seen in context but doesnt have any bearing on responsibility. my ex and yours and everyone elses are all adults. my ex does not get a pass for any of her behavior. some people emerging from these relationships do experience tremendous guilt and a sense of obligation. those are their issues. the struggle to see your ex, the good and the bad, all of her, to sort out your sympathy from your anger/contempt/whatever you wish to call it, is yours. theres nothing inherently wrong with focusing on one or the other when our balance is off. thats why i recommend writing it down. it really helped align my heart and my head. or simply put, my conflicted feelings about who she was. something like a list. mine turned out to be more of a letter to myself. writing it, as opposed to having it in my head, turned out to be a big turning point for me.


its very challenging for a professional to diagnose a person. its impossible to diagnose a person based on the written word of an anonymous stranger giving their side. its important to keep in mind when we help others - what works for us may not be for everyone.

ps. we have an awful lot of well grounded and clinical information as well as sources. i encourage you to dive in them. its easy to get tripped up with everything on the internet.

And I do believe from reading a lot of these stories that there are co-morbid disorders going on isolating it to BPD opens up the whole victim angle. Whereas accepting they could be narcissistic, antisocial and downright cruel people at times too can be a revealing insight that some people are denying to themselves. I would have just a few months ago.


I'm not sure how to quote, but I think separating out the first line of that para was a bit disingenuous. I'm not diagnosing, I'm saying that there is a right mess of stuff going on in there in a lot of instances, downright cruel is not a medical term as far as I am aware :)

I don't think we're disagreeing too much, I'm just saying that when I think of a girl struggling to control her emotions I'm left thinking 'if only'. If I think of somebody doing cruel things for her own pleasure or some twisted concept of revenge, yeah that's not somebody I want to be around.

So focusing on the other side, the one we're still probably trying to minimise in a lot of cases where the wounds are fresh, can actually be quite empowering and make us happy to be out of there.

I've watched the video about narcissists also having BPD.

Have thought about narcissistic ex husband and looked again at the diagnostic criteria for BPD and can't identify any of those indicators in him.

So, from my single experience, I'd disagree that narcissists are also generally borderline. However, I do believe that people with BPD can be narcissistic.

didnt meant to be disingenuous or misrepresent your words, i was suggesting its the crux of your statement. if you read one persons story and come to the conclusion that they are narcissistic, antisocial, etc, it could be a risky suggestion to make. its just important to be self aware about. this method is helping you and thats great. it may not be applicable for everyone; there are constructive and healthy ways of applying this method but it works best to keep the focus on each of our experiences and the behaviors we dealt with.

I think what we all would like is as much clarity as possible. And trying to clarify easily leads to simplifying or generalizations.

Wouldn't we all love it if people could only have one disorder, and the disorder always was xyz in case of situation abc? So no character mixed in or any co-morbidity. We would be handed a checklist and if someone always did x in case of z, he would have BPD. And there would be instructions to match. In case of behaviour x it's because you've pressed button a which triggered pain in the frontal lobe. The solution is to do z and behaviour will go back to 'normal'.

Trying to find your way in how to look at a personality disorder, how to recognize which one it most likely is, how that makes us feel about them, us, what happened, etc is difficult enough. But they are all different people with different characters and experiences and ways of expressing themselves + they have a personality disorder that comes out different in all + most of them have (parts of) another personality disorder mixed in if not more than that.

Now, I love a puzzle but I don't love a puzzle THAT much  *)

Yeah I agree with that. In the end they were just a bit messed up, we're not perfect, we weren't compatible. I just don't want another one... .

Another one? Spare me!

So, in order not to get another one delivered to you on a silver platter, focus on you. Not on how sick they are, if they might have x or y possibly with a bit of z mixed in, focus on you. How did the start make you feel? What did you get out of this relationship that made you want it, pursue it, stay in it, hang on to it? How did the end make you feel? What behaviour damaged you most and why? What did you accept that makes you smack yourself in the head now? And any other question you can come up with  :)

And the repair work starts.

For me a lot of it has to do with my inner void and the fact I did not feel loved as a child. Now to repair that, that I find challenging to say the least...

Oh I know exactly what I did, I recreated my dysfunctional childhood with the hope of getting a better result. I took my dad's place, but the characters involved, the dynamic, was just frighteningly similar.

So yes, I am working on myself and also trying to recognise that women like my mum are not girlfriend material, that's why she's alone now. It's a bit complex, but I'll get there!

I grew up with a very bad model, intellectually I know what love is meant to be, but there are some deep rooted issues I need to resolve so I don't end up chasing emotionally unavailable and unbalanced women.

I also see many narcissistic traits in my ex, to the point that I wonder if that is the dominant issue.  I have also found it easier to detach from him since more of these traits have been revealed, mostly post breakup. 

I think what a lot of the posters here seem to be feeling is that pwBPD experience their disorder as sadness, loneliness, and rejection.  In contrast, those with NPD seem to experience their disorder as rage directed toward others, entitlement, and a desire for control.  It is easier to pity someone who feels primarily sadness, and we want to comfort them.  When someone is mostly just enraged at us and blaming us for the problem, we feel less inclined to comfort them.  There was a time that I felt that my ex mostly felt sad and lonely, but as his rage became more apparent, and his desire to control others (especially women), I started to feel less and less bad for him.  It is like the difference between a crying child and a child pitching a tantrum and throwing things at your head.

My ex's obsession with vengeance is really what changed my view of him.  It might be easier to pity him, for example, if he hadn't sent me deranged letters expressing a desire for me to go to prison.  He told me that he was a very forgiving and patient person, but that was really the mask.  In truth, anyone who makes him feel even remotely bad deserves to fry, as far as he's concerned.  He is almost entirely unable to put himself in someone else's shoes and imagine what made them act the way they did. 

One of the things I've seen on the boards here is that people often talk about "all" pwBPD, as if they are all the same, and many of the significant others being discussed here are undiagnosed.  Some of the worse cases here might be AsPD or malignant NPD, but as non-professionals, we don't know for sure.  So to describe "them" when you don't even know for sure what your ex has going on isn't really fair.  I suspect my ex has many comorbid issues going on, because teasing out just one disorder from his behavior is problematic.  That's not my concern, however, since I no longer see or speak to him. 

This post is becoming too complicated for me, I agree with Frustratedbloke, oh and my sponsors suggestions I keep my eyes on myself. I too sprang forth "grew up in extreme dysfunction" lol kinda like a rose in a weed patch us unlucky children.

Anyway I focus a lot of attention on understanding pwBPD for these reasons today:

1. To save my own sanity

2. It is facinating, like driving by a serous "wreak" and not being able to look away, hmm good metiphor to describe her, lol

3. Maybe my experience can help others in similar cercumstanses

4. Avoid future occurrence

5. Somewhat of a defence mechanism to keep me from going back into the lions den.

I'm sure of one thing, if I were healthier I would have never ever even gave my ex the time of day, just a one way ride to the nearest sanitarium.

Great topic people and appriciate all you say and experience

:)

Do you think it's important to know which person's place you took? Or which parent you we're trying to find in the pwBPD?

Because I can't seem to figure it out. Both my parents were emotionally unavailable in their own way. Neither of them tried to save anyone, like I did. My last ex reminds me of both my parents depending on his mood.

Is it important to find out who's place I took, who I was trying to get a better result from? Or is it enough to know that that is what I was doing?

Bibi I think that might be the point it gets too complex for me, too, and that's a question for the therapist.

I think that probably over the course of time we probably date both our parents in some guise or another, we might not even see it. This one was just crystal clear and ripped off a lot of old scabs and opened old wounds, but I stayed, I didn't know why at the time, but I was drawn to the puzzle.

It clicked into place recently that I was replaying childhood trauma, even I didn't see it at the time.

So I don't know is the answer to yours, I'd imagine you're drawn to the most obviously troubled parent simile. But I feel I am way over my head answering your question to be honest.

No worries  :)  Just wondering. I'll ask my T this week if it makes a difference.

There is a theory that boys recreate relationships that mirror their Mother and that girls seek relationships that they had with their Father. Opposite sex. This could be not so bad depending on the "quality" of the parent and that relationship. I believe people seek familiarity. That is what feels like "home".

Something else to consider is that we learn about Love from a very young age from our parents. Typically our Mothers. Take from that what you will.  Just my 2c.  :)

Thanks JohnLove! I know the theory. I can clearly see that my ex made me into his mother. That all the people he has close friendships with resemble his mother. I just can't figure out the pattern for myself. Not with him. I feel attracted to guys that have something cold about them, that's my mother. But he went from cold to bouncy happy when he discovered me. I don't recognize the bouncy happy bit that made me so happy in my parents. Maybe it's just the "see! I can do it! I can change cold into bouncy happy!" bit, the "Yes! Created a different outcome!" bit that kept me attached to him.

I think it can be complex.

My father died when I was three, I'm told that I adored him. He was creatively talented and also an intellectual. Guess what? All the men I've been involved with are clever creatives - so there's a link there.

But my mother, who then became my primary parent, was cold and selfish, a withholder, also manipulative. All the men I've been involved with are witholders, cold and selfish - and manipulative.

My brother, ten years older than me, became my model for maleness. He was verbally abusive, cruel and chauvinistic - like the men I became involved with. I broke contact with him when he told me I deserved to be hit when I was divorcing my abusive husband. So another familiarity.

I think we pick up behavioural strands from our childhoods - familiarity becomes our norm and although we don't like it, it's what attracts us and what we gravitate towards.

I became a co-dependent, feeling unloved by my mother I spent my life trying to win her approval. Also trying to get my brother's approval. When I look back I was desperate for love and an easy target for the disordered men I became involved with.

No internet in those days, no awareness of co-dependency or of personality disorders. But it's never too late for understanding and change.  :)

Clever men, check. Creative men, check. Withholding mother, check. Withholding men, check. Co-dependency, check.  *)

So basically the men I am attracted to are a mix of my parents, although I can see my preference has shifted a lot; the last 2 were softer (like my dad) and way more disturbed than any guy in my life before. I think in the past the men in my life were more about my mother and now it has become more about both my parents. Maybe it doesn't matter which part of whom I'm attracted to, maybe I just need to look at the big picture. Although this very abrupt shift in preference to more metro-man like men is interesting.

Wow this one got quite meta didn't it? :) Glad it sparked some thought, though, and it looks like a few of us are trying to fix our dysfunctional parent.

That's the first time I have put it in those terms, so maybe we all learned something here.

Thanks!

Really valuable thoughts! I've been thinking about that shift from men with issues to seriously disturbed men. I think I'm on to something here...

I also feel with pwBPD this theory applies x10. They seek to recreate the relationship with the parent that CAUSED their disorder to manifest. Even if we are not that "type" of person they manipulate us or situations until we become that person for them. The punitive parent. My suspicion is this is way more subconscious for them than it is for us.

Yep I know we are in some very twisted form of dance, there's no real relationship there and every time I tried to take it out of the rigid plan she disappeared on me. So yeah it's almost like she's playing out the same terrible movie time and again and we are too, to a lesser extent.