BPDFamily.com

Saturday she was still p$ssy about things and in a bad mood.  Thanks for all those on here that kept pointing out the obviousness with which she was "asking" for space.

I gave her space and got some stuff done, pretty much stayed away from her.

No idea what flipped the switch in her, but yesterday was a big "pull" cycle or perhaps trying to butter me up for a good MC, who knows.

So, to keep this out of the TMI realm, but to get the picture.  Yesterday morning, nice wakeup.  She had slept elsewhere but came in for a snuggle, sex and off to church.  Figured we were good for the day on that.  She was super affectionate all day, I responded in kind but made sure it was "toned down" from what she was doing (to stay inside push pull cycle).

Was doing rideshare (uber) and she texted me to come home and have sex with her.  No flirting about it, said "You better come home quick and have sex with me, "    No tickets on the way home, and, wow,

More this morning.  Now my plan for the day is to hide in the garage and get projects done until MC.  My joints/back can't take anymore.

So, I'm obviously enjoying "this part" of it.  But, step back for a sec.

She writes the MC that "I want her dead, " and lots of others stuff.  Seemed "appropriately p$ssy" for that kind of thinking to be in her head.  I guess she is over that "for now" and, (fill in the blank) is her goal now.

I think the document makes obvious most of our problems.  I hope to listen and be low key, validate what I can, and stay away from "accusations".

FF

One thought that you can work on... .trying to be less reactive to the push segment of the push-pull cycle let her take as much space as she wants.

Think about it this way--for *some* reason of her own, likely one you will never understand, she needs to push you away for a bit to feel safe. The more you resist this, the more you two are held together in conflict over her desire for separation, and the more she needs the space, and the worse everything gets.

If you just let her take the space she wants at the first hint she wants it, she will get whatever she needs taken care of, get over it, and want to come back sooner.

When she wants to pull you in close, you are happy to oblige, not fighting her ocver it  :) *); I don't see anything you need to change in that part.

Anyhow, I'm interested to hear how the MC session went.

 

MC session was better than I expected. 

All parties agreed that FF wife is paranoid.   

The key is what to do with it. 

The basic theory, as I see it, and as the MC presented it is that he will continue to gather data and challenge each of us and it will be obvious who wants to help the marriage get better by working on themselves and who doesn't. 

We didn't dissect each of the events in detail, but we talked broadly about the big differences in the way we see them. 

He did challenge my wife about her calling it "BS" and a "science fiction" novel.  She laughed in the MC session and said, "yeah, I shouldn't have said that, "   He and I stayed "serious", no laughing. 

His comment was  "FF wife, I don't think laughing is what you should be doing right now, "  She eventually stopped laughing, it was silent for a while.  And then we went on to other subjects. 

My take was that he was giving her a chance to "repent" of those things.

More later, sigh, she is ordering kids around again, gotta go.

FF

Your wife agreed that she is paranoid?  How exactly did that go?  Did she agree to work on that?  Did  you believe her if she did agree?

She admitted she is paranoid? That takes guts. Good on her—and you. 

 

The MC said it and my wife nodded. 

MC is pushing to "get to the heart" of the issues quick.

FF

Gee, do you think any of the three of you can know what either of the other two meant when using the word "paranoia?"

Could the objective be simply to bypass a single definition of the word and reach straight to the types of behaviors and statements that will be considered unacceptable?

 

Who knows,

It was done in the context of why I contact the counselor without putting my wife on the email.

When I read that "I wanted her dead", and we posted about it here, I contacted the counselor via email and provided "my context" to her paranoia and how that plays out (me holding door shut as she tries to bang to get in).

The counselor made it clear today that, from now on, all digital contact with him includes the other party.  He alluded to my wife emailing him, although I didn't pursue that (think of it at the time).

He did say that both parties were making claims that "the other one is crazy"

His big focus is to get each of us to understand how "our sin" plays into it and that "our sin" is worse than the other persons.

But, he was speaking about a paranoid ideation that my wife had about trying to kill her. 

He said something like this, "It's obvious that ff wife is paranoid or "suffers from paranoia" or something like that.  And then said something like "right?" or "isn't that right?"

My wife quietly nodded.

FF

Wow, this really makes me wonder what my husband's private sessions with his psychiatrist were like. How a therapist actually attempts to guide a person with paranoia.

Once again, your wife surprises me with her reaction to what the marriage counselor says.  Last week (or two weeks ago?) she was strangely calm when some of her "stuff" came out.  Now she is nodding in agreement that she is paranoid (which I agree she definitely is).  My gut tells me she may deny later that she agreed to any such thing, or that she just went along with it to avoid an argument. 

You're at the point now where a LOT of her "stuff" has been spelled out, and she still hasn't blown up and walked out--something I really thought she would do.  

The proof is in the pudding, though.  If she doesn't stop telling  your children you are insane, need help, that you're a a liar, etc., then whether she agrees she is paranoid or not you still have a big problem.  The parental alienation is, to me, the biggest issue here because eight children are being affected by it.  Has the MC addressed the parental alientation directly?  :)oes your wife agree that is what she is doing with her behavior?  Or does she think she "needs" to tell the children the "truth" about you?  

Paranoia is still not a sin; it is general enough that the specific thoughts, words and actions are not addressed. (this kind of counseling doesn't really deal with the psychological labels) My guess is that she is still trying to appear 'submissive' to the counselor's authority -- or at least 'more' holy than FF is -- to get the MC to side with her.

FF, what is the culture of the church like?

 

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?board=2.0

Relevant to this discussion, but worthy of it's own thread.

I'm still figuring out culture of the church.  In my opinion there is a big focus on acknowledging your own "brokenness" and "sinfulness".

Vice last church I was member of really focused on the greatest commandment,

1. Love the lord

2. Love your neighbor.

Yes they focused on brokenness too, but you can kinda tell by how often concepts come up in sermons.

That all being said, I'm still sorting it out.

FF

FF, your wife is intelligent.  And, very manipulative.  I don't think the goal of this MC has anything to do with her wanting to get to the root of the issues in your home, own up to her part in it, and CHANGE anything she is doing. 

I believe her goal is go along to get along for now, until she can get the MC on her side and prove once and for all that you are one awful husband and she is perfectly normal. 

This explains why her behavior during counseling has been so surprising.  She knows that if she showed her true behavior (even though all the reports you've both been sending DO show it), she would have no chance to get the MC in her corner. 

Well, it is possible that your wife feels that she suffers paranoia, because she has a right to feel paranoid by 'someone like you,' and MC 'will soon realize.'  So, I'd be cautious about what FFw 'feels,' or 'admits.' 

(I expect her words and feelings to be as telling and in line with actions/thoughts as usual... .not more so because we happen to like the words.)

Paranoia... .

Well, if MC has acknowledged the element of paranoia now on the table... . 

It does seem suiting for him to expect openness from here on, as an opposite positive force to counteract paranoia.

Also seems suiting to pull himself out of 'secret' communications to him which cause drama, increase paranoia, and can make each party feel they have a 'special alliance' with him.

My sense... .

This MC is being a Rock that you two need.

Maybe I am optimistic. _{(Which would be surprising of me)}

Soo... .

This is interesting. 

He seems to refuse to ... .

manipulate the situation in any way

Put himself in the middle

Take responsibility if you two have a DV issue as a result

He seems to be putting it it your hands, as a couple, and Gods.  Thus being an example of how he wants you two to be, and also setting the correct tone for what his role will be if this is to work.

So FF, I hear you kind of mulling over thoughts of self evaluation of if you are triggered to PTSD.  Well... .  I wonder why it matters? 

I am not saying this rudely, but seriously.  Why is that important to you?  So what if you ARE having minor emotional/other flashbacks, or minor hypersensitivities, etc?  What does this mean to you?

I ask because... .

The issue you are dealing with would likely cause trauma and harm to anyones psyche.  Are you judging yourself?  Do you want to reassure yourself?  Are you getting a 'grounding' reality check to yourself? Are you able to identify what these thoughts mean to you? 

(If it could be helpful of course)

So, Verbena likely has it closest to being right.

We had a visit with a psychologist last night (been a long time coming, scheduling issues).  PhD type, years of experience.  A lady, last PhD psychologist was a man.y

Denies that she agreed she was paranoid.  Twisted it to say that the counselor said "So, what if she is paranoid?"  Typical challenges of "you call him, he didn't say that" 

I was in awe of how deftly someone with proper training and experience defused and moved to something else.   Seriously, time and time again I saw her engage me and go into follow up mode and I kept providing answers and going on the same path.

She would engage my wife, maybe get one layer into a questions, find contradictions, ever so gently challenge those.  As soon as word salad or a tangent appeared she would validate and move on.

She exclaimed to my wife, "So if your husband is trying to kill you, what are you still doing in the house?"  Word salad, mumbling about he needs to get better.  Then we got into the meat of the story, how she "pinned" the massager to prevent it going in the water.  Very dramatically told I might add, she got up and demonstrated the "hip toss" she used, waving her arms around. 

Psych noticed I was grinning and gave me evil look, I fixed it quickly.

Then, very telling moment, wife says that she didn't believe that I was trying to excite her because "It's just me and my 43 year old body, "  the words don't look bad, but the way she said it was full of contempt.

Psych pounced, "what is that about", wife "disappeared" and introduced tangents.  P complemented her looks, but did it "gently".

When it was my turn I basically said, "After 8 kids, look what I get to have.  I'm blessed and a very lucky guy."

Wife was still incredulous about light saber noises, saying they didn't happen.  I said that my mind was a bit focused on getting laid and that while it might be embarrassing to admit about light sabers, using the "force", etc etc.

Then, in a genius bonding/validation moment the P leans towards my wife and they have a "girl moment".  "FF wife, lets face it, we know how "they" get when they are thinking about making love"  Wife nods.  P led her to next conclusion, "So, it isn't any surprise to us that he didn't make sense with what he said and did, "  Again, nods from wife.

Wife visibly relaxed.

We were scheduled for an hour, stayed for two hours.

Same thing, probe this area, wife scatters, P writes things down, validate and move on.

Last:  And I totally give credit to bpdfamily. 

When asked about my family I said that I grew up in a family that praised but did not validate emotions.  That I have been learning to validate but still feel "clumsy".

P goes, let's roll play.  P "accused" me of trying to kill her with massager".  I validated that I heard her, could see how it looked that way to her, and that anyone would feel that way (or threated, don't remember exactly), but the truth is that I was thinking about making love to her.

P goes, "that's a pretty good effort", "good SET" and moved on.

More later.  P said that she wanted to see me a couple times and that she would bring my wife in as needed and would want to see wife later.

FF

Oh man, bingo! Formflier.

I especially like the fact that the psychologist wants to see you first. (You know, to help you "deal." Because this paranoia stuff is dramatic and life altering for us but not really so mysterious or exotic to a seasoned professional, at least in my experience. So things the psychologist needs to say to you are very different than things your wife may benefit from hearing.)

Do you think you will, if possible, continue with both this type of counseling and the biblical counselor? 

Typically,  persons are not supposed to see more than one type of therapist.  How does this play in?

This woman sounds amazing! Do you expect to be seeing her as well as the biblical MC in parallel?


She had a huge advantage over you with your wife, starting as an uninvolved party without an agenda... .and she is VERY good with the sort of tools on this site too. (It is easier for her in a professional relationship than it would be for her with her own partner too!)

I hope it inspires you to work on refining your own communication skills. There is always room to improve, and seeing it done in action with your wife was an invaluable lesson!

Wow! This is great, FF, just the person you need! I was getting really worried about the Biblical counselor. He seems out of his depth, but this woman is wonderful! How did you get your wife to agree to seeing her?

It was my wife's idea, but one tossed out in a "fit" a couple months ago.

I had made a promise to "go look under the hood" if my wife was ever worried about PTSD coming back.

So, I went to the last PhD guy, on the phone and he told me how to search for one.  Last PhD guy said don't go without your wife and don't speak for wife,   Mrs FF kept trying to back out but that would cancel "getting me" looked at.

The plan is to do both for a while.  MC handles "biblical" stuff.

Now that this has started, and seems to be helping you, don't let your wife put a stop to it. She can stop going / stop participating... .but you clearly can learn from this T.

Stand strong and stick with it, if it comes to that.

 

Yeah, my reading of the tea leaves this morning says that, (yes judgmental FF here)

She favors biblical counselor and is "wondering aloud" if we should "fool with" the secular world.

I listened and wondered aloud that it should be ok because the PhD is a Christian.

I fully expect that she will try to turn off secular and stick with biblical.  I'll be nonchalant and keep going to both.

At some point though, I kept my promise to her and, she, ?

That is where the biblical angle gets funky, then my wife wants me to show her "grace". 

We had an interesting discussion about writing things down.  She demanded I sign something this morning saying I would get a job.  I said "I think it is wonderful that you want to start journaling and signing off on decisions again.  She used to be the "scribe" so that she could be comfortable with the wording.

I had to contain myself from not laughing as she backpedaled out of her demand, really fast.

FF

Circular arguments are circular arguments, whether they are about religious or secular matters.

You get to choose your actions for yourself, for your reasons, based on your faith.

Just because your wife wants to "discuss" how your behavior should be different with you doesn't mean you have to participate.

What you might do to elicit your wife's cooperation in continuing to see this counselor is to plead "weakness"--I used this to get my husband to see the MC--"I really need this, Honey, will you come with me to support me?" It worked like a charm. Unfortunately for us, in MC, he obviously didn't want to probe his own issues.

 

Yeah, we had a productive (for us) discussion today.  Lots of validation.

I exited several circular things and stopped several  "you think x" and since "you feel" statements.

It was an interesting mix of validation and (to her) slamming a door in her face of not participating in a discussion where "you think" and "you fee" statements are present.

Then, as she struggled to gain the upper hand, she started praising me soon after trying to bash me for incompetence at job search.  It was kinda like going hunting and you wait for the deer to come to you.  I listened, validated and waited.

"FF you are so good at what you do, don't you want to do more?"

Got her,

I said I agreed with her and I'm glad she felt that way, that her feelings gave hope for the future.

"Help me understand how I can be so good and what I do, but so poor at getting one and providing for the family"  (the trap slammed shut)

I didn't embarrass her further by making her say the words, but I said directly.  "I am good at what I do.  I use that to provide for our family.  Let me do what I do and things will be ok.  "

I tossed out one bit of "proof", we just got a contract on a property I have been trying to sell for a while.  Lot of work has gone into that, she was a non-believer in the project.  

I moved on to other things.  She heard it, she got it, and didn't like it.  


FF

As a postscript, I'm a secular guy... .so forgive me if I do not understand matters of faith... .

... .but I'm unaware of any faith-based reason that contradicts this basic boundary concept:

You are entitled to use (or NOT use) any counselor/therapist that is/isn't helping you to improve your role in your marriage and your relationship with God. (If your wife has objections, you should consider them, but based on their validity, not based on her assertions.)


This one is messier--here is some theological basis for you overruling her, (I've heard of "headship" I don't see it working well for you in your marriage.

Your wife is entitled to use (or NOT use) any counselor/therapist that is/isn't helping her to improve her role in her marriage and her relationship with God.

I'm skeptical that scripture dictates that you participate in circular arguments about this!

---

Cross-posted with FF, and one last comment:

"Help me understand" is a dangerous one for you to use.

 If you see her as having boxed herself into a self-contradiction, and want to "spring the trap" on her, that is invalidating. You may need to do this. You may not need to do this. But either way, don't try to paint it in terms of wanting to understand what she's thinking when you really want her to drop her controlling/delusional/inappropriate/other bad behavior and argument.

 If you are honestly wanting to understand and validate her feelings, with no need to prove her wrong, or change any behavior of hers, or stop her from doing or saying anything, then go ahead and ask to understand.

After reading your posts for awhile and getting a better understanding of what you have been through, this is what really stands out to me:

Your wife has a very powerful NEED to put you in a bad light--to your children, to her parents, her sister, your employers, therapists, your pastor.  I think this is what drives all her disordered behavior, every bit of it.

She MUST do and say the things she says and does because it is very important to her that everyone know just how awful you are.  I do think she has moments when she appreciates you for who and what you are, but that desire to make you look bad to all who know you always comes back. It's her "duty" to make everyone aware of what a rotten husband and father you are.   

If she weren't paranoid, if she didn't have a mental illness... .she could be okay with you being okay.  But she IS paranoid and she Is mentally ill, and marriage counseling (to her) is a way to educate yet another person on all your faults. 

Again, I don't think she has any intention of changing her tactics or her behavior.  If she could ever face her issues herself and recognize what she is actually doing, then I think you might see some needed changes. 

 

Yep, Verbena, I think you have it.

And here is an interesting thing about invalidation.

Yes, I intentionally invalidated her today with the trap that I saw her driving towards.  She had recently finished praying to "see me in a different light", it did seem to be an earnest prayer, at times it was more "praying at me, vice for me"  (basically asking God to "get me".

She has said a bunch about wanting her heart changed and being different.  It could be a put on.  I think, in her own way, she is trying.

Anyway, I made a choice to "make a point".  I will do so carefully, rarely, and selectively.  Whether or not it works, we will see.

FF

The positive aspect of Mrs FFs choices is that she is engaging with her faith and trying to prove that she isn't the one with the problem. If she is sincere about change, God might just answer her prayer. It probably won't be the way she has in mind.

It is normal in marriage counseling for one person to "drag" the other to counseling to "fix" them. That's also one of the reasons that MC in abuse situations is bad - triangulation with the C used as a weapon.

 

Yeah, I've noticed a couple of times she is very big on "what the counselor says we have to do" when it is something for me, and when it is against her, she "wants grace".

FF

Is there a danger the biblical counselor might be too rough on your wife, formflier? The man used some pretty strong language in his recent communication with you regarding the type of counseling to expect with him.

Perhaps. 

I put this under the heading of her choices and not rescuing her from her choices.

He is moving fast, we are really "at" the meat here.  That is good. 

He has also used strong language in person.  Reasons are, we have done this before, many times.  Either we are serious and will take hold of it, or there is another agenda.  He didn't use word agenda, but something close, don't remember.  He look at both of us and said it will be come obvious, very quickly.

He also said that since we had been through the training and since we have had previous Biblical Counseling, that he is pushing ahead quickly on that front.  (Some people show up as non-Christians and spend a lot of time figuring that out)

FF

I ran into this kind of thinking recently, too. My h was all 'up in arms' about something that I was doing and calling it sin. He had done the same thing for at least a couple of years (out of anger and unforgiveness). So, I said that I was confused because in his mind, when I do x it is sin, but when he does x it is just fine. He asked if he should just roll over, and I said I was just asking for consistency and integrity in his actions. It can't be sin and horrible for me to do it 'to him' and okay for him to do it 'to me'. He had to think about that more and said that I had a good point.

My actions are not out of anger or unforgiveness; they are an act of obedience to what I think God would have me do. (a way of having good boundaries supported by Scripture)

Not that it has made a difference in his thinking yet.

Now you have me curious, can you give any more details?  What actions?

FF

Sure, I am choosing to 'not associate' with my h while he is verbally abusive; the way that plays out is that I am choosing to attend our former church when he is at our current church. He feels ashamed and reminded of his sin when I am gone. I'm also sleeping separately from him.

 Huh, so, he considers that a sin because, ?

Also, has he ever come to you and asked your forgiveness?  Gotten over himself, humbled himself and asked forgiveness for verbal abuse?

Sure, he will probably do it again, and I'm not saying it's ok to do it again, but hey, we are all sinners.  That is our condition.

FF

It's a sin because he is not leading/managing his family well. He claims that there are other verses, but he hasn't been able to come up with those (because there aren't any). Humbling himself isn't happening either.

He has asked forgiveness in a general way, no specific interactions have been addressed. He continues to be verbally abusive with an incident as recently as this morning, one that indicates planning and forethought. So, there hasn't been repentance.

So, any use of the Matthew process to confront him?  Church discipline?

He is one of our church leaders,  and our pastor and supervising clergy are aware of the issue. Our denomination is really reluctant to use church discipline - it's one of the 'distinctives'.

He has been told that he cannot progress further in leadership without addressing the issues; I can't either. This was something that was initiated by the leadership after reports of concern about physical safety. So, he's trying to prove himself to the leadership and is well trained in 'doing the right things'.

FF,

This is a description of Mrs. Cole's view of me last year. Only after she moved out last fall did she realize that she loved and needed me. Her entire view of me and her behavior has changed radically since I allowed her to come back.

She has realized that she has a big empty hole in her sole; It is an absence of self with which so many pwBPD suffer. She expected marriage to me to fix that. When it didn't, she felt abandoned and turned against me. She has learned through T and MC that no one, including me, can fill that empty feeling for her.     

This may or may not be the issue Mrs. FF is dealing with, but thought I would put it out there as a possibility.