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I've been in a relationship with a girl who I am crazy about for about 5 months. It has been totally online, but the feelings are real. I should also mention that I am pretty co-dependent, and am what I believe is sometimes defined as an "over-giver".

For a long time, it seemed like I was on a roller coaster. One day things would be fine, then there would be drama. I was sure she was going to leave at any moment. No other girls I knew ever put up with this much drama. But she didn't, and I took this as a sign that she wanted to stay in the relationship.

And honestly, that's about the only sign I got. She has never actually expressed her feelings outside of telling me she missed me when I got busy or pulled away. And I kind of need those things. So we had a few arguments about her lack of expression, and I was finally able to accept that she was uncomfortable with that, but that her interest, which she showed by writing everyday, was what mattered.

About a month in, after we had a bit of a blow up, she opened up and gave me more than ever. She showed me her writing, told me things about herself. It was great and felt like I had finally broken through.

The next week we had our worst argument to date, and things have never really been the same. She has never been as affectionate and has mostly been distant ever since.

She's done a few things that really betrayed my trust. She has lied about things... .She told me once that she would lie to spare my feelings, and I told her not to. She later agreed that she wouldn't lie... .and was lying during that conversation. She has also done things that I consider a breach of trust. Then became hostile and dismissive when I tried to bring it up and discuss it.

I really do have feelings for this girl, and I was feeling like a doormat. So I started to enforce boundaries. We agreed to be exclusive with each other in January. She mentioned on social media a little joke about 'liking someone' who clearly wasn't me. I wrote her an email about this and a few other things and she responded, again, by opening up to me... .And then the next week closed off, pretty much. She would disappear for long periods of time, claim to have been sleeping... .Then a couple days later talk about how she was tired and hadn't slept. She told me something was clearly bothering her, and wouldn't elaborate.

This lead me to believe, with some reason, to believe she was seeing another guy. One night, after I had worked to find her some information to help her with her taxes, she ignored my email and was very dismissive again. So I wrote her a long and somewhat demanding text about how her behavior was rude and ungrateful and I wasn't going to take it. The next day, she posted something on social media about hating men... .I didn't think that could just have been about my text and accosted her about cheating. She got angry and didn't talk to me for a week. I thought she was gone.

When she came back, I started trying to enforce boundaries, and to get some degree of stability in the relationship. I've never known exactly what I am to her, and if I ask, she just ignores it. She also started ignoring nice things I would do for her.  I have helped her financially, and she has gotten to where she only occasionally thanks me, and even then with a "thanks".  I've gotten her some things I knew she wanted because I didn't know how else to tell her how I felt. I mean, telling her only seemed to agitate her, and opening up like that and being ignored made ME agitated. But she doesn't thank me for those either, really. I used to send her jokes, and she would tell me how much she liked them and they made her feel appreciated. Now, I send her jokes and I'm lucky to get a "haha" or "lol".

So, last week, she was coming to town for a visit. She used to live in the area, and moved right when we first met. I was looking forward to it, as I've only gotten to meet her in person once. Well, she didn't make any plans with me, and I started to get agitated. I was talking to a friend who doesn't like her. They had pretty much convinced me that her not trying to plan some time with me was proof that she was just using me. I decided that if she tried to go the week without seeing me, even though she said she intended to, that this would be the breaking point.

I talked to her on Tuesday. I was already stressed because the next day I had to attend a mediation for a potential lawsuit against a former employer (I won, btw). So I was already stressed and nervous. I had texted her that day and asked a couple questions, one of which was about when we were going to be able to hang out. She told me that the next day, she and her best friend were going to the pool with some friends, and Friday she was going to a rave. I said "so thursday?" Oh, that night they were going to a meeting to meet some friends.

I was devastated. She had made plans for every night. I told her that if she had planned to come down and not hang out, then I guess we were done. She said she hadn't said that at all. My response was that she had made plans with everyone else, and was going to cram me into an hour between other obligations. Since I already felt like she didn't trust me, that was not something I could accept. Then I unloaded on her for being ungrateful and unappreciative of everything I did for her. Of course, she didn't respond.

So later that night, I gave her an ultimatum and said she needed to get ahold of me that night, or we were through. Of course, she didn't get ahold of me. She went back home yesterday (which was my birthday) and I haven't heard from her at all.

The friend who doesn't like her sent me an article about Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and I have to admit that a lot of the behaviors are very similar. I was thinking that I dodged a bullet.

But as I did more research, I started to see that she really seems to fit BPD much better.  I was thinking that by setting a boundary and sticking to it, I would teach her not to treat me in a way that was unacceptable. I fully expected her to come back to me in a few days, apologizing and having reset the relationship a bit, with her having learned I am serious about that boundary.

Now, I'm thinking that I overreacted (I think she probably did plan on seeing me), unloaded a lot of blame on her, and then abandoned her. And I feel terrible. I told her early last week that I wanted to protect her and be her safety net, and I had every intention of doing just that. But now, I'm not sure what to do.

If I contact her and apologize, I feel I will be teaching her that I have no boundaries. At the same time, I do care about her a lot. When I thought her actions were from not caring about me or trusting me, or from narcissism, I was okay with not seeing her again. But if they were BPD, and her actions were her way of trying to deal with her fears, then I probably triggered the hell out of her. And I'm thinking that she isn't narcissist after all. She has shown empathy before.

So I don't know what to do. I've read a few things online about how to approach someone with BPD after an emotional episode, and I'm considering that. But again, I don't know if BPDs tend to try and fix a relationship after a breakup? I really don't know. I do know that, recently, she had been making an effort to accommodate some of my concerns, so I think I am important to her.

But I'm clueless. Sorry this was so long. I just don't know what to do here. I are about her very much. I would be fine staying with her and being stability in the face of her disorder, but I don't know how to make this happen.

  This does sound really tough and crazy-making to be in this kind of relationship... .whether she has NPD traits, BPD traits, or whatever, the behavior would be hard to be with.

She doesn't sound like she is being open and truthful with you. This seems like a consistent pattern.

You don't mention her being verbally abusive or raging at you. Instead she seems to disappear or give you the silent treatment.


Yes, there probably were better ways of dealing with that situation than what you did... .but the situation was terribly hurtful to you, and your feelings were real.

What would you want from her to make it feel worth trying more and apologizing after this?

Thank you very much for your response. She was consistently dishonest, yes. And not always about "important" things. She would lie to me about when she went to bed, for instance.  She lied to me about her last name.  The lying and the fact that she seemed to distrust me and treat me like some kind of creepy stalker made me feel really bad about myself.

I read somewhere that trust is almost impossible for someone with BPD. She does seem to have a lot of paranoia just surrounding life in general... .and I didn't get into this, but it makes sense... .She ha had a LOT of terrible things happen... .She was raped 3x, nearly raped 2 more, sexually assaulted several times. She was attacked by a rottweiler when she was 10 and nearly lost her eye, and as a result has PTSD with trichotillomania. And there is more stuff, so I get it.

What I would need would just be to understand that her actions don't necessarily mean that she doesn't trust me personally, but that it's part of her condition. I was constantly beating myself up for not being trustworthy enough, and was assuming her actions were speaking louder than her words and that she really didn't care for me. But if her condition made her unable to trust me, and I got treated differently because she was afraid I would leave and that meant something to her, then that would be a big difference to me.

I actually did send her a text last night. She hasn't responded yet. I guess we'll see if she does... .I'm thinking she will eventually

So, last night, she wrote me back. Because of the fact that I abandoned her, she went somewhere Saturday night and did something she knew would hurt me. She also gave her number to that guy and saw him again the next day before she left and went back home. I am heart broken. It took months to get her number. And I've gotten to see her one time, for a few hours. Yet she basically cheats on me and give everything I worked so hard to get to this guy in one night? I mean, I helped this girl in every way... .Financially, emotionally... .And she just gives this guy more than I've gotten in one night?

She "decided" that we "werent healthy" and needed to end it. I kept telling her I would end it if she could say she didn't care about me. She never did, but did ask me to go and said she wanted to be alone. I think the only reason she has the "courage" to do so is because of this guy.

On top of it all, I get to know that if I hadn't gotten angry and broken it off, she would probably never have gone there and met this idiot in the first place... .So I get to blame myself and feel regret.

I'm just crushed. I did so much for her and she never trusted me, but she trusts a guy she meets after one night?

The worst is that I know what's coming. I'm numb right now, but I know that in a few hours or days I'll get the depression. That will last, oh, 18 months or so, and even then I'll just be back to baseline. I'll never actually heal completely. I had a bad breakup about 15 years ago and I hadn't had any real feelings for anyone until this girl. So I know that the rest of my life is a consolation prize, and frankly, if I didn't have a daughter, I would just as soon not live it. Sorry, but that's the grim reality I'm facing

It doesn't matter what she is lying about it is the underlying thought process that is important. 

You did a lot for her. She didn't trust you. She treated you badly and in ways that provoked you.

If you hadn't responded angrily to her that time, I'm pretty sure she would have provoked you further until you did.


  Breakups and rejection are really tough, and you are going to feel miserable for a while.

Knowing this, what can you do to help yourself get through it? How can you take good care of yourself?

I've found that exercise is very good for me--in whatever form you like best, walking, running, swimming, bicycling, going to the gym, playing basketball, or other sports. If you can schedule that into your life, especially with an exercise partner or team, that will help you.

If you have any other friends and family who can support you, reach out to them.

You've already said your daughter is very important to you. Make sure you do things with and for her.

Have you considered getting counseling / therapy for yourself?

I am going to therapy soon. I have an appointment. Tbh, I wonder if I might be BPD myself.

I don't know what to do otherwise. Exercise is good, but one of the reasons I think I might be BPD is that these things just tear me open. I feel terrified and betrayed and like life is a living hell right now.

I guess the thing that helps just a little is that she wasn't cruel. I kept telling her that I would leave if she didn't care anymore and she refused to say that, which is kind of surprising. She was capable of some pretty cutting words. And she almost never said kind words, at least in the last few months. Last night she told me that she does care a lot about me, and refused to say she didn't just bc she wanted to be alone.

I wrote her today and told her that I was sorry for the times I did things that might have upset her, but if she had just told me she cared more, like she did last night, I probably wouldn't have been so frustrated and confused. She said that I scare her sometimes when I get angry, and I've never really been angry when I talked to her. I've been frustrated and disappointed, but never angry. But I told her that, when you lie to someone and always give off signs that they can't be trusted, then there are very few people who won't get angry, so to act like this is a problem of mine isn't really fair.

I told her I don't believe she really wants me out of her life forever. She told me that she cared for me but didn't love me, and I said that I think she does love me, but she's afraid I'll walk so she's doing it now, preemptively. But I don't want to be a hassle so I'll go. I told her I already miss her and thinking about how much I'm going to miss her is really depressing. And she's going to miss me too.

And I told her I loved her, and that's she's special to me.

I feel like she will probably Coke back at some point. Otherwise she would have been much more cutting and dismissive. She kind of left the door open by saying she cared and wasn't going to deny her affection for me. But "she thinks it is best"

But I know I can't wait for that, and no one can predict it. I'll do my best to work on myself but I miss her so much.

And yes, she treated me badly. But still... .I get to know that if I had not made that decision then it probably doesn't happen like this... .And what really stings is that she just gives away things to this guy that I worked and worked and gave and gave for. And what did he do? I would have rather had her come here and just stab me in the heart. That really just... .Damn.

|iiii I'm glad you are getting help.

You probably do have issues, but I sincerely doubt you have BPD. If nothing else, people with BPD usually deny any possibility of that, while people who wonder if they have it (and are in a r/s with somebody who does!) almost never do, that I've seen!


I doubt it is quite as you fear it to be with this next guy.

If she isn't capable of being in a healthy relationship and treating a partner well, that is who she is.

You may never see it, or never know the whole story... .but I sincerely doubt she will be able to sustain treating this new guy significantly better than she treated you. People don't turn their personality around 180 degrees in the space of a day or a week, if they ever manage to do anything of the sort at all!

I don't really think the new guy is even that serious. What hurts is that she new him for a day and had already given him more than she ever gave me. That makes me feel like the problem was me... .I wasn't trustworthy. I did or said something wrong. Or I'm just not worthy of what this guy got for doing absolutely nothing. It makes me feel absolutely worthless. I guess I could take some solace in the idea that maybe the reason she didn't trust me was bc she cared so much? And maybe she just gave this guy all this "trust" is that she doesn't care?

But yeah... .She's never had a really good relationship. I don't expect that to start now. But knowing I was working all that time and this guy comes along and just PLOP here you go... .It kind of stings pretty bad

Hi, I can see that you're suffering. I know that is a painful place to be. When life feels empty without another. And all feels hopeless. I hope that passes soon.

Those feelings often are the product of many years attrition--where essential elements have long been malnourished. To such a degree, that what has sprung up in its wake becomes a persistent pattern. And we embrace the object of our affection as that hoped for alleviating instrument. Symbolic, that we are good enough to give and receive romantic love. 

And then we push and nudge in that direction, desiring a particular person to fulfill that role in our life. 

Yet, during that process we tend to build up these "others" into replicas which conform to our wishes, while often losing sight that they may come with their own wardrobes, costumes, ghosts, biographies, bag of tricks and confused patterns taking many shapes--and not just the form that we want them to be.

But frequently it is human nature to cling to what we crave. Even when what we crave is a distraction from clearly perceiving patterns that inhibit finding peace within our authentic selves.

So we are prone to over-investing in the wished for persona of another--a representative panacea---a placeholder in which we deposit reserves of love that have long felt neglected.

But when we look within and clearly perceive--separating our emotional mind from our wise mind. We are in a better position to put this or any relationship within its proper context. And adjudge our own value and self-worth--which is independent from the vagaries of a romantic attachment to another.

And what I see you describing is that you want her to please you--in the ways that you long to be pleased. There is nothing necessarily wrong with that aspiration. However, what if she is incapable of pleasing you in those ways. Moreover, what if she is incapable of relationally pleasing anyone in a stable sense. Will you accept her limitations and make peace with that. Are you able to deconstruct your previous notions and adapt or tailor them to the present circumstances--via clearly perceiving. Yet, to turn on yourself, and chew off your own leg like an animal caught in a trap due to the relational vagaries/instabilities of another is a disservice to your own self. Having relational likes and dislikes is altogether natural. Though, when an object of interest is excessively inflated to fulfill relational needs stemming from core wounds--the disappointment when those needs go unmet is inordinately felt in a debilitating fashion. It is an indicia that the self is malnourished. I truly wish that it was as easy as saying that you will be fine with or without her--but that journey is one of self-discovery. I wish you well.           

What you are saying is true. I do have a tendency to over value and idolize romantic partners... .Or I did. I hadn't really done that for a long time until this girl came along. And yeah, I was really taking a lot of symbolic hope from the idea that it would work out.

It's all well and good to know that intellectually. It's also possible to look back and see that I was constantly on edge... .Worrying everyday about what was happening. If we were good, it was a good day. If I had a worry, or she disappeared for a long time, or any other number of things, I was a nervous wreck. I drank waaaay too much and a bunch of other bad habits.

And I still ache for her. I had trouble sleeping last night and I was trying to sleep today, only to be hit with that sick panicky feeling everytime I would wake up. I'm mostly numb now, almost detached from myself. But I know what is coming and it scares the hell out of me.

And I know I'm going to beat myself up about this forever. If I had only not gotten angry and done something rash, it would have never happened. It's going to be the hardest pill I'll ever have to swallow

It seems to me that you're being too hard on yourself over an action that at worst may be considered a faux pas, and some might consider just venting when emotions get the best of us. No one is perfect in their relationship with a person with BPD, and even if one was perfect it would guarantee little.

Perhaps, you're focusing too much on the current loss/outcome, and assigning yourself the lion's share of blame. Though, I'd venture the truth is far from what it appears on the surface and that this incident was not the great catalyst that you think it was. Often underneath small surface ripples with a disordered person lies a swirling storm. Considering it was an on-line relationship and having only seen her once it would be very difficult to discern the depth of relational anomalies.

Look, you took an approach. In hindsight, maybe you'd do it differently--but there was a point to it, even if it was not artfully expressed. You expected better treatment and set up some form of boundary. I wouldn't get hung up that you triggered abandonment fears, and that's the be all end all. It's rarely as simplistic as that.

For better or for worse, you took a stand and with that type of ultimatum you have to risk losing the relationship. Either temporarily or permanently. Now's not the time to beg, plead or grovel. You stated your case with the hope of it providing future dividends. Acting needy and desperate at this point can only damage the cards that you played. Now's the time to work on yourself, give her space, act witty, charming, enticing (keep things easy, funny, light and not all emo) etc., and see if she comes back to you with a better understanding of what you expect from the relationship. Patience.

Nothing you did here, at least as written seems disproportionately off the charts terrible. Yes, it would have been better to approach it dispassionately, or shown little interest at all (regarding the dismissive behavior) but we're human and imperfect. Cut yourself some slack--these relationships aren't hard science.

In that same direction... .if she really was the sort of person you could have a long, successful and healthy relationship with, this one incident wouldn't be fatal to the relationship. Because you would say something angry or wrong sooner or later... .and if she is going to vanish forever as the result of that, it was inevitable.

You may not feel it now... .but you are worth being with somebody who can recover from a miss-step of yours. Whether it is this woman or a different one.

So learn from what you did... .and try to do better in the future... .but forgive yourself for it now.

I want to thank you both. It does feel good to hear you say that. I suppose, if there is any grace to the situation, it's that she did it when I had essentially broken off the relationship, as opposed to have cheated and done it behind my back, which I suspect she has done before.

I know she did something similar a few months back and lied about it. I was hoping she had changed once we agreed to be exclusive. She did show signs of trying to respect my boundaries. But if I had found out she lied again, esp about something like this, then I would be even more devastated.

It does seem like she did it bc she was upset by my leaving... .So maybe it's all just spite and "revenge", but still... .Knowing she just handed this guy something I worked for and earned hurts really badly.

I am guessing that it probably would have been something else if it weren't this. It is pretty much the most hurtful thing she could have done, but that's probably why she did it.

But I appreciate hearing that I wasn't my fault. I've felt so awful bc if if just been patient this wouldn't have happened... .But she could have, and shoukd have, made plans with me before she came... .Or at least let me know how long she'd be staying. As it was, it felt like she was trying to avoid seeing me, and that just set me off. She knew what it did to me.

For the time being, there is no being witty and charming. We're not enemies, but she wants to be alone. I did try to convince her not to leave, but I don't think I groveled or otherwise compromised my dignity. I'll give her all the space she wants.

And bc she kept saying, over and over, that she does care for me, I get the feeling she'll be back at some point. I don't know what to do if and when that happens. But yeah, in the meantime I'm going to work in myself. I kind of have to. I can't imagine how much it would suck to just sit around and mope. I was in bed most of the day today but that's because we were talking until 530.

I do miss her, though. But your words really help. So thank you

I know there is no way of knowing this, but does the fact that she wasn't mean and refused to deny her feelings for me and kept saying over and over that she just wanted to be alone but she still cares and wouldn't say that she didn't and was doing this bc she thought it was for the best mean she'll be coming back? She said it was bc she didn't want to keep hurting me... .But if you're going to lie to someone and cheat on them, then you're pretty much going to hurt anyone. I guess the only person who wouldn't feel hurt is one wo didn't really want a relationship with her?

we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. I think the thing that really hurts most isn't that she did this... .It's pretty clear it was a shot at me bc I upset her, and something she knew would cut me deeply, so at least I was on her mind. It's that she's just letting this guy into places she never let me. She friended him on certain social media sites where she would never allow me. She gave him her number. Spent time with him. Granted her friend knew the guy so maybe that has something to do with it, but damn, that stings. What I'm hearing is that there was something wrong with me. I'm not trustworthy. I'm a freak. You have to be careful bc I'm dangerous... .That kind of stuff is what that is giving me.  It just reinforces that deep deep fear and hatred I have about myself and I don't know how else to interpret that. If I did, and I could see some way where this isn't a statement about me, and the fact that she didn't trust me, I would be closer to okay. I don't really think she's that serious about this guy, and I think the new will wear off of him pretty quickly and she'll be back to having to deal with herself if it hasn't already. But it's hard not to look at that and think there's something about me that made her not trust me, and that's bc anyone can see I'm an unstable, scary, bad person, which is kind of what I was told growing up.

If anyone can send good words, please do. You've all been so helpful already. This is kind of the biggest issue for me... .Being singled out and treated differently... .And having some way to see that I'm not a bad guy would make me much better

There is what you know and what you don't know.

You know that her choice to visit your town and not make time for you / avoid you was one she made intentionally.

You don't know if her intention behind that. I see a couple possibilities:

1. She wanted to set you off / hurt you, as you suggested. Obviously, this bodes poorly for your relationship with her.

2. Perhaps she really doesn't care about you at all, and never even thought about it. Also bad for any future relationship hopes!

3. She has real fears and anxiety about getting close to you in a relationship, and she got caught up in these fears, and avoided you rather than either confronting the fears OR being honest with you about her fears.

This last option sounds more like the patterns of a pwBPD than either of the first two... .and is a bit more forgivable... .and still makes her a very difficult person to be in a close relationship with!

I think the last one is probably the case. And I should state, just to be clear, that I don't know for a fact that she was not planning on seeing me. It I didn't know when she was leaving. She'd mentioned about not buying tickets for a convention in her current home town that weekend, so I thought that meant she planned on being there Saturday. Turns out she stayed until Sunday. That would have been helpful to know. And since she made plans with other people, that would have been a good thing to do also. So she probably did plan on seeing me, but when we had the conversation I didn't know the schedule and it sounded for all the world like she was saying she wouldn't have time, or that she'd make some time to squeeze me in. Soni jumped the gun and got pissed. She's done this kind of stuff before.

Around the holidays, I had caught her in a lie, with physical proof. She denied it, then on New Year's Eve came clean and apologized. We agreed we woukd talk the next day, bc she was leaving on the 2nd. She knew how much this was hurting me and that I needed to talk about it, and that I would rather do it in person, or at least on the phone. (I didn't have her # at this time) I also had gotten her a bottle of whiskey that had been damaged when I gave it to her a few days before, so I got her another one.

I talked to her in New Year's Day, and even though we'd agreed to talk, immediately she started giving me excuses. She had to pack, and "help her mom" (she and her mom do not get along) I told her we needed to talk, and preferably not texting. She was non commital... .And then vanished for 8 hours despite my telling her we needed to talk. I finally decided to drive out to her town, which was about an hour away, and try to meet her for a drink or sonething so we could clear the air. I finally got ahold of her, and she was extremely rude and dismissive. She couldn't meet me bc she was "playing video games with her neighbors" and wasn't going to let me "waste time taking her away from her people" for a conversation that will "drone on and on and accomplish nothing". And then she vanished and I didn't get to talk about it. I finally got to when I sort of cornered her and told her that I hadn't slept or eaten well, that I was getting sick and would probably end up in the hospital if she didn't let me deal with it. And even then, she made a statement, somewhat vague, deflecting blame from herself and onto someone else, and then said she was "never talking about it again... ." And I refused that and said she did something wrong, she knew it hurt me, and making me carry it for weeks wasn't fair, so I forced the story out of her. I'm not sure it was the truth, but the point is, she has no problem avoiding me, in person or online, if it makes her a little more comfortable. So I was ready to believe she would come down, avoid telling me anything, make plans with everyone else, and then act angry and dismissive when I expected time, because I don't deserve to take her away from "her people" because I don't mater as much as a video game. I only basically paid her rent for the last 3 months.

Anyway, yeah, there's a lot of anger around that issue... .So she triggers me and then runs off and does something she knows will deeply hurt me, and then ends the relationship because she "doesn't want to hurt me... ."

Writing that actually made me angry. That was so selfish and mean spirited. But I was talking to a friend today who said we seek out the love we think we deserve. When we first started talking she told me that she meets a lot of guys who end up using her for sex and leave. It's not really surprising. She really flaunts her sexuality and basically announces that she's down for pretty much anything. And not surprisingly, she draws a lot of predators. She was telling me that she hates that these guys come into her life and things seem great and then they leave. So sometimes she'll reject them first. Why couldn't she meet someone who wanted to know her for herself? I said, truthfully, that I was exactly that guy. I wanted to know her like that. Maybe that explains a lot of her behavior... .Maybe that's why she'd feel more comfortable with a guy who takes what she's giving away rather than one who wants to get to know her? It makes some sense to me if I see it in that regard.

But I think the reason I did what I did, and reacted that way, is bc if what she did on New Year's Day. If I'm honest, I really do want to take her, anytime she hurts, and shove her face in that and say "that is why you get treated the way you do! Who wouldn't want to leave someone who pulls that ___?" But of course, you get lies or accusations or, when you confront her with something she can't deny or avoid, she just stats whimpering.

I love the girl, but when I look back and see some of the stuff she did, I want to just lay it all out, right there in front of her, and say "this is why you're unhappy. This is why you're alone. And this is why this guy who you used to disrespect 'me by dumping all over my hard work and giving away the stuff I've earned is going to leave you too. Everything you do, everyday second you are miserable in your life, is your own damn fault. And watch as she ignores it. Or just starts whimpering... ."

But at the same time, what would that accomplish? Ugh... .I'm venting, but it kind of happens when you are with someone who hurts you and refuses to let you deal with it. You just have to eat it, and keep on eating it, until you finally vent and explode, and then YOURE the bad guy for being "angry"... .And then they go off and do the thing they know will hurt you the most.

Right now, I definitely have a feeling that it's not over. If she wanted to slam the door she could have. She is capable of being biting and petty and cruel and she knows if she had done that I would more than likely have been inclined to leave. But she didn't. She didn't even really say she wanted me out if her life. She just kept saying that she thought it was best, that what we were doing wasn't healthy, and she didn't want to be someone who hurt me (although, again... .If you're going to lie and cheat and generally be dishonest, then you're not going to find many people who won't be hurt). She kept saying she cared for me and had deep affection (wouldn't say she loved me, but I'm not sure she even knows what that is). I kept saying that the only reason we should end things is if she didn't care for me and wanted me out of her life. If that wasn't the case then it's a mistake. But she wouldn't do that. She said she can still care and want to be alone. And that where she left it when she courageously ran away and hid. So it seems like she's leaving that door open... .Almost like she wants me to force it open. I'm not going to, though. I'll let her hit bottom again, which she'll do in a few weeks. And in my gut I know she'll come crawling back.

Sorry this is so negative. But I've held onto this stuff for so long with no one where to put it. I've told friends, but they get frustrated bc they assume it is a normal relationship and that she's a normal, mature adult, and I'm being a "doormat" and playing the "victim" when I tell them about stuff she's pulled. It's hard to explain to them that someone like this and someone like myself are almost incapable of not drawing close to each other. But what's the point, really. You just get platitudes... ."You just need to walk away"... ."she's using you"... ."why don't you try and find someone who really loves you"... .Etc.

So it's nice to have a place wher people understand and listen. So thanks

Whew, that is a lot to vent about, and I get how you feel.

Anyhow, I'm going back around one more time to the incident that blew everything up for you and her:


No, you don't know she was going to avoid you the whole time, or what her intentions exactly were.

Consider what you DO know.

You do know that this relationship is a top priority in your life (or at least was), given all you do for her, etc.

You also believe that this relationship is similarly important to her. (or at least did)

Given how significant this online relationship is (or appears to be), visiting the town you live in and NOT making seeing you her top priority or at least one of her top priorities is truly messed up.

There is a big disconnect and problem right there... .and I cannot see any action you could have taken which would have made it not be a problem. (Yes, perhaps you could have handled it a bit better... .but it isn't a good situation no matter what you did next!)

I agree. Whole heartedly. She should have made me a priority. And where I'm really getting the most pain is seeing how she constantly did things that sent the signal of "I don't trust you", even when I was bending over backwards and sacrificing everything I could, short of my life... .

Then I overreact because of her behavior... .

And she meets a guy and immediately and very casually hands him the trust that I sacrificed for. I've been there when she lost jobs and got in accidents. I've actually supported her financially with more money than she's earned.

This guy shared a messed up situation with her... .And one which we'd talked about the week before and how it was a very hard boundary for me. So of course she goes off and does that thing and hands this guy everything that is worked so hard for... .

It feels like spite. But when I talked to her, she didn't have spite at all. She said she didn't want to hurt me. So on the one hand, we've had worse arguments before, or at least ones that were just as bad, and she basically begged to stay in the relationship. The only thing that's different is there's a new guy to infatuated about. So she ends things "for my benefit", but doesn't just slam the door and unload like I know she could. It seems like she's not all in for this thing either, which makes sense since even if they were both healthy it has a very small chance of working.

But yeah... .It feels like a slap in the face. And it's funny... .This would happen. I would send her money to help with something, and she might be really grateful. Or maybe she would be almost distracted, and I'd get a "thanks". Then the next day, she would try and pull away and if I tried to stop her then she'd snap and start calling me names. Once she got angry bc I was hanging out with one of my exes. We dated for a couple months a long time ago and are just friends. She's set me up with people and I've done the same. There is nothing there beyond platonic. She knew I hung out with girls and was okay with that, but when she found out it was my ex she went ballistic... .Accusing me of having "orgies" and all kinds of stuff. And then when she'd said her piece, it was "it's past my bed time. F&$k off!" I had sent her $500 to fix her car the day before.

I could sit here and toss off all kinds of examples, and yeah, it's a lot of venting, but the fear inside me is that yeah... .It was me. I just wasn't good enough. Everyone can see it. And it's so obvious that she can meet someone and know he's trustworthy. He probably has a key to her house by now... .And intellectually I know that's not true, but that's what I keep hearing myself say. So it's good t hear that PwBPD don't trust people whose intentions are noble. We accept the love we deserve, and she accepts what happens with this guy bc she doesn't feel she deserve anything real and it's pretty clear that this is going to be another situation of a guy who isn't in it for her, but for what she will do for him.

I can know that, and it helps. If I can hear it more and internalize it, then this won't hurt as bad. I'm kind of surprised how well I'm taking this. Used to it would have devastated me, but I feel motivated and I kind of feel forced to fix myself. I can't imagine sitting around the house all day, drinking and trying to siphon off my anger while I waited for her to contact me. That seems like the one last, big hurdle. Once I know it's not a case of me just being the wrong guy, and her instantly knowing someone is "better", I'll proceed fairly quickly, I think.

I'm going to work on myself. I just hope I can be prepared for when she comes back, because I can't see a situation where that doesn't happen

Hi Obliv, there's enough hating in this world already, so let the self-hate wash away, because you don't really strike me as some loathsome character--simply someone who's concerned and has crossed path's with a difficult/complex/confused woman.

Providing my best guesstimate, I think you're misinterpreting her actions as some sort of referendum upon your own worth. While that's a natural inference to draw, it's more than likely incorrect.

While it's conjecture, I'm sure you've heard the term wearing masks when applied to pwBPD. People with BPD may compartmentalize parts of themselves from their primary interest while displaying an entirely different side to another interest. They juggle feelings, and attachments in haphazard patterns which to a non often appears anti-relational (and hurtful).

But to make sense of the nonsensical, one must accept that the clinical traits (when untreated) may result in impulsive actions/patterns that in essence come close to the border between volitional and the compelled.

Sometimes it easier for a pwBPD to be with someone that they care less about because they're ashamed (or don't know how) to show that side of their self to the person who holds them in higher esteem and wants greater intimacy with them. People with untreated BPD may use maladaptive tools to meet maladaptive needs and frequently do not understand how to build or sustain mature intimacy. They partition intimacy like a pie, offering fragmented slices of themselves to various people but in a holistic sense they persistently miss the true mark (and never can figure out why-hence the revolving door).

Consequently, when she said that she didn't want to keep hurting you, it's probably some type of true warning that she doesn't have a great handle on her impulses, emotions and actions despite caring for you, and your good relational intentions. In other words she's probably a bit of a mess, which obviously pre-dates you meeting her.

I'd advise getting familiar with the concepts of radical acceptance and clear perception. It does sound to me like you're evidencing a Knight in Shining Armor (KISA) mentality with (for lack of a better term) a bad girl. Trying to save her, or make her see the light, well... .she has to reach that epiphany for herself (or maybe never will).  I'm afraid, it never goes well for the good guy who falls for a girl like that when looking for a true-blue relationship. One can love them, treat them well, be with them for a time, but thinking your love is going to transmute her into a stable angel--if wishes were fishes.

Then again, I may be entirely off base... .                   

Again, your words really help. As you can probably tell, I've harbors quite a bit of anger. I know I have issues as well, probably a lot of co-dependence, and while I've worked hard to understand these things, I'm not there yet. So yes, I was absolutely taking her actions personally and as a referendum on me. I've also been listening and reading a lot about BPD, and apparently when they're rejected, they will react with rage and engage in damaging behavior, possibly to themselves or against the one who hurt them. In this case it was both. She did something we had specifically talked about being a hard limit for me. If the relationship had still been "on", it would have absolutely ended the relationship. I consider it the most intense form of betrayal, so the idea that she engaged in this particular form or revenge isn't an accident, I'm thinking.

But the compartmentalism makes sense too. She regularly recognizes that she is "broken", even sees the symptoms. She's just never put two and two together.

And yes, I am absolutely a light in shining armor type. I'm aware that this didn't work out well... .Trust me, I'm very aware... .So I'm trying to fix myself. I hope I can do it somewhat quickly, because I really do believe she's coming back, and relatively soon. I just want to be ready when that happens.

But thanks again. This board has been such a blessing.

Hi obliv326,


It would have happened. Eventually, over something, it would have happened.

Healthy relationships involve breaches (i.e. anger, disappointment). What makes healthy relationships different from dysfunctional ones is that both sides are capable of repair and recovery. Many BPD relationships don't have that, partly because BPD makes taking responsibility difficult, and partly because many people who get involved in BPD relationships often come from families where repair and recovery skills are pretty meagre, if not nonexistent. How did your family of origin handle arguments? Often there are some pretty rich clues back there in childhood.


There isn't a crystal ball for these kinds of questions, though that doesn't stop us from wanting answers  :) Chances are, she will resurface, is my guess. She doesn't have to do a whole lot and in return she receives a lot from you. It doesn't take a whole lot to put you in your place, and when she acts badly, you very quickly take on the blame. Plus, you are helping her financially. I don't know that it's very healthy for things to be so one-sided, only to point out that she can do what she wants here and will probably come back for more of the same.

I think the question is what you can do differently to mitigate the conflict so you aren't back in the churn. Feeling good when she is shining her light on you, and then bad when you're in the shadow -- that's a very dramatic, roller coaster kind of existence. It's also not all that attractive to a partner.

This means you can't ask nor expect her to uphold your boundaries. That is on you, friend. If you have a boundary, it is on you to enforce it. This is often linked to deep work because enforcing boundaries based on values we hold dear means having the courage to stand by them. And that means being ok with the consequences of enforcing them. She is only going to respect you as much as you respect yourself.

LnL

Of course, everything you said was correct. Something else would have happened.

And I agree that she will probably be back. This is why I am scrambling so hard for information. I know I can't completely change myself in that time, but I can, hopefully, find some answers so I don't fall back in that trap again. I really would like to be with her, or at least spend some time with her one on one and get to know her. But I don't want to be codependent and let that be our dynamic anymore.

She did text me today and say 'let me know you're okay', so at least I was on her mind a bit. I haven't answered and don't know the best thing to do. At this point it's almost game playing because can't rely on myself to necessarily do the healthy thing, so I'm trying to do the thing that will be most effective to make her 'paint me white'. I just don't know what that is.

So, a couple things... .One a bit of venting, and one a legit question... .

First, one of the things I keep hearing is that PwBPD, when they feel abandoned, will get enraged and target the person who did it. I don't think that the actions she took, which were specifically the thing I feared most, and told her about, are an accident. I think the fact that she did exactly what she knew would hurt me, up to and including giving her number to another guy, were informed and inspired by revenge and anger. This sucks, but it does make me feel a bit better, because that guy didn't earn any of it so it's nice knowing that it wasn't about him, but about me, and that he'll almost certainly be a non factor once the ability to hurt me wears off.

The question... .Today she texted me and said "let me know how you're doing." I haven't responded, because I don't want to mess this up. It seems like completely fixing things is probabky not the best idea, or much of a possibility really, at this point. But I am hoping that I could split white here. And I know it's speculation, but if anyone has advice or experiences, I'd love whatever guidance I can get

I've been thinking a lot about what everyone said. Still need answers to some of what I wrote earlier, but I understand!

I was thinking specifically about the idea of 'segmentation', and how pwBPD will give you a piece of themselves... .At one point, she stopped talking with me about sex. Since she uses sex to get attention, and the wrong kind is drawn to her constantly, I'm sure someone giving her warmth and acceptance didn't compute there.

I'm in a pretty angry place now, but talking about it helps

My sense is that the best way to move forward is to show her you have confidence, that you're a strong guy.

"Let me know how you're doing" is a pretty casual thing to say after what's happened. I'm guessing the best way to respond is, "Pretty good. How about you?"

You are associated in her mind with someone who makes demands, who gets hurt easily, who needs her to do things she isn't willing to do. If you want her back, then you need to get back to the guy you were when you met.

That makes sense. The problem is the second I talk to her I get worried about every word I say. Are there any resources that help someone to be able to do this?

Tell me about it.  I bottled up a lot of things I shouldn't have because I was afraid of sending my ex into some depressive tailspin that would impact other parts of her life.  I was living in near constant anxiety and fear because of this and it damaged both me and the relationship.  I was deep in the FOG and it slowly destroyed me.

If you haven't already, read up on validation.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-validation

Thank you! Validation obviously helps a lot... .

What about ways to appear "confident" when you desperately want to always say the perfect thing to make her laugh or smile or want to be with you? I can be aware of what to say, but I think anyone listening woukd know better. Obviously, working on myself is the way to make this happen for real. Any advice on how to do this in the meantime? How to learn to "fake it until you make it", for lack of a better word?

And here's another question... .Since the fact that I triggered her abandonment issues seems to be what caused her to break things off (she didn't rage or act spiteful, but rather sorry. Kept telling me she cared and didn't want to be someone who hurt me), while I get that I need to give her space and time to "miss me", she did text the other day, and I have yet to answer.

So I'm wondering... .Would expressing my intent to be there with her, which I had promised before, even during this downtime, be a good thing to do, or would that send a more desperate message. She leaned on me and trusted me and feels, I'm sure, that I broached that trust. But she's going to need me soon as she got another ticket, and is already in severe financial straits. I can help her and was going to, so I'm wondering if doing so would possibly split me white, or send the message, as expressed above, that she can do whatever and suffer no consequences. The goal, for me, is to get her to come back, and use the skills I'm learning here to communicate better and be in her life as her romantic partner. My heart says reach out, my gut says give space, and my head says ask someone. So I'm asking.

Codependence can have an addictive feel to it, and what you're describing sounds like codependence. What you want is to feel confident that you can make it through the moment without having a drink. But how to not have that drink? It's tough. Some people do it through interpersonal therapy (takes longer, apparently is more long-lasting, goes deeper), and some people will do CBT or DBT to change habits and replace dysfunctional behavior with better, healthier behavior. Basically, change habits.

Everyone has a different sweet spot about how to get there. I can tell you as a woman, there is nothing attractive about desperation or neediness. If you can't fake it till you make it, how about sticking to text messages for a while? Or email. Try to be light, confident and pay attention to how you feel when you change what you do.


I'm not sure I see the fear of abandonment so much? I don't fully understand LDR, so how abandonment fits in is a bit of a puzzle to me. I don't quite understand how there can be a fear of abandonment when the long-distance sort of pre-empts the possibility for abandonment. It seems more like engulfment, though perhaps both are present.




Seems more desperate in the larger picture of what's been going on.




I guess I have a question in response to your question. If she split you white and didn't respect you at the same time, would you be ok with that?


By romantic partner, do you mean back to having a LDR with nothing face to face?

Thank you very much for your reply. This very much has an addictive feel, right down to cravings and the flood of endporphins when I hear from her, and now kind of withdrawal. It's not fun, and I'm going to make changes. I've already changed my behavior and I do feel better.  But I also know she'll be back and I want to be ready, like I said

We probably will stick to text messages, at least initially. Light and funny I can do.

So, to LDR and abandonment... .It was always assumed, I think, that i wouldn't always be a LDR. She's from the area, and while we never really discussed it, it was sort of assumed that she would eventually be back. So, no, it was never going to be a no face to face thing. As for abandonment, just the ending of the relationship. We talked everyday. I think she didn't want that to end and neither did I, and we wanted it to become something real. Not sure what engulfment means, but it's possible.

As far as desperation is concerned, I guess the reason I ask is since the abandonment or ending of the relationship that I did seems to have been the catalyst for her to end things, esp reading between the lines, I was wondering if taking a step to alleviate that might be in order.  I don't know, but I'm guessing not.

As far as splitting white with no respect, what would be the more difficult move... .getting her to respect me or getting her to split me white? I'm not particularly happy with not being respected, but I would have to imagine it is possible to regain both?

And by romantic partner, i would be a LDR initially, but like I said, the idea is to have face to face contact. And I wouldn't have to do all the work I did before. I hope that clarifies something.

It does seem like a very one-sided relationship. Intellectually, you wrote that you recognize this one-sidedness (and resent it). Emotionally, it seems that you react to relationship pressures, even mild ones. You do have a choice to say no (as in, no more financial support), but doing so will probably create a lot of anxiety. That's pretty classic codependence.


It might be helpful to read about enmeshment and engulfment. She may have much stronger fears about enmeshment/engulfment than abandonment, which would explain her satisfaction with the status quo of a LDR.


You asserted a boundary with her, and she didn't like it. Her response (to end it) is her way of saying she prefers the status quo -- which is to be in a LDR where, even when she comes to town, she can decide whether to be bothered with seeing you or not. She is resisting the boundary. Whether she is rejecting you remains to be seen. Given her financial dependence on you, do you think she will really end things with you?


She is probably going to split you white when she needs financial help, would be my guess. She has also already reached out.

Getting her to respect you means respecting yourself first.

I think you have to see you cannot get her to do these things for you.  What you can do is set some healthy boundaries for yourself.  How she responds to those boundaries will determine where the relationship is headed.

Just dropping in to say: I suggest you stop paying for her stuff.

The overtones of "I paid for you and now you are supposed to give me something in return" are probably off putting to many people, but for pwBPD, the feeling that they are expected to give something they feel ambivalent about giving because they "owe" the other person something, is often anathema, it seems. My ex wBPD was extreme in this regard--it made him feel indebted if I bought a cup of coffee for him. He wanted to be free to make his choices without obligation. Not all pwBPD are the same, certainly, and she may seem to want you to pay her obligations ... .But I'd guess that in her head, that is in tension with the conditions for genuine freely given love and respect.

When you described your hurt about this situation, you several times mentioned that you had given her all this stuff and now she isn't treating you well. Be wary of the thought trap of "giving to get." Give what you feel like giving, not to bind someone to you, make them dependent, make them stay.

I'll second that possibility... .I recall several stories from these forums of people who were in an LDR, and it was "stable" but when their partner moved in with them or moved to the same town, things got really bad.

That makes some sense in the context of somebody with a huge fear of engulfment/enmeshment--when the physical distance which allows them to feel "safe" goes away, they kinda lost it.

There is no way to know that this woman you are seeing is like that... .but given how she behaved when she was coming to town to visit last time, it seems possible.


The best thing you can do is work on yourself and do what you can to shift your focus to yourself instead of her. Try to accept that she is who she is, and probably won't change much at all... .and work on making your responses more healthy.

As LnL said, you have to respect yourself first.

It was one sided, but not always. It followed the classic BPD lines... .She was very attentive and fawning, then withdrew... .Came back a little... .Then retreated. The areas where it was almost always one sided were the BPD things... .Expressing emotions, communication, etc

And I am absolutely codependent. The point of the last couple days of inquiry is to get some answers so I can have some tools when she does eventually return. I don't think I have enough time to repair my self respect or change my lifetime of codependent habits. What I am looking for are some resources that I can use to help me until I can develop those skills.

I don't think her fear was enmeshment from what I understand. I think it's more afraid that she'll be " a disappointment." She said that the worst thing she could hear is "I'm not mad. I'm disappointed"... .And I said that to her when I got angry about not spending time together. This is another reason why I think she bailed, and was triggered by abandonment.  I think the willingness to maintain the status quo was the fact that I was the first person in her life to commit to really getting to know her. That's what has been suggested as a possibility, anyway.  It always seemed like she didn't know how to react, or would be distant, but didn't want to leave and just kept hanging on. I think why this is different is that she met a guy and feels emboldened, but it's not really a good match and I can't see it lasting. I don't think there's anything particularly special about the guy except he happened to be there and she wanted a replacement. Which is a long winded way of saying that I don't think enmeshment was the issue, but maybe I'm wrong.

Sorry if this sounds argumentative, but She didn't end things when I established a boundary. She ended things when I tried to start them again bc she has a temporary replacement on deck and is a little infatuated. Part of the reason I feel so crappy and angry is bc j jumped the gun and assumed she wasn't going to see me. If she does come back I'll at least make sure we have that wrapped up, and we make solid plans when she's in town. In fact, I'm thinking that when she does come back I'll make plans to go up there.

Given her financial dependence, I think she probably will restart things. I think she would anyway. The more I learn about BPD the more it looks like she really trusted me, in her weird way, and I didn't know how to recognize that.

And yes... .Getting her to respect me means respecting myself first. And pardon me for saying this, but that statement sounds a little dismissive. I'm very aware I need to be able to respect myself. I've tried all my life to find a way to break my codependency and fix what's wrong with me, and nothing has worked. Im trying again, and I'm doing a little better now, but I'm a long way to go. If you have advice here, I would really appreciate it. Sincerely. Just stating that I need to do something that I've spent my whole life trying to do is kind of rubbing it in, albeit unintentionally, I'm sure. I appreciate your words and your help, and I don't want to come off as rude.

Patientandclear

Your words are appreciated, but let me say that I never engaged in this. Not at all. I never mentioned the money to her until the event that led to my giving the ultimatum... .If I gave to get anything, it was her trust and belief that I was there for her. I never brought it up. When I mentioned it here, it was more to demonstrate the fact that I had gone beyond the pale for this girl and how frustrated I was by what I saw as her lack of respect.  But I was very careful to never say or intimate that she owed me anything... .I never even mentioned when she didn't thank me

You may want to read up on the validating questions (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=273415.msg12586025#msg12586025). What is particularly helpful about validation posed as questions is that it puts the onus of responsibility back on her to solve her own problems. People who are codependent tend to rescue/fix -- the emotional payoff feels great. You're worthy! Whereas what you're going for is to be a coach -- the emotional payoff is less. You have to stand by while someone flails. There is a middle way, and validating questions are part of that. This allows you to be caring and concerned, while also having the confidence in her that she can solve her own problems. She may feel afraid to solve her own problems, she also needs to do this for herself.

About respecting yourself... .is it that you know when you are behaving in ways that are not respectful to yourself, and aren't sure how to stop yourself from doing what you know is disrespectful? Or is it that you aren't sure what being respectful to yourself means (in practice)? I know they sound similar. One seems more about identifying your values, and the other seems more about how to assert boundaries (based on those values).

I'm almost sure it's about asserting boundaries. This is what I was trying to do before our last argument. I had kind of done it with a couple things, but I had to have something to

Bargain with, which is why I made the ultimatum. I know what my values are, even if I can't always put it into words, and I don't know what to do to enforce my boundaries without feeling like I have to make a threat or worry that the relationship will end. I can do this in other relationships. I had a lunch date that cancelled on me yesterday, then wouldn't return my calls or texts and hasn't since. So I'm done.

But this girl scares me and I'm sure she knows it and it shows. A couple times I told her something bothered me and she made no effort to change until I was able to provide consequences, and then she started to respect that. The ultimatum was a way to try and enforce consequences. I don't know what else to use if the fact that I'm someone she cares about and what she's doing hurts, but that doesn't stop her. Getting mad doesn't stop her. Ultimatums did work a few times, and I only backed down on this one because I was worried that using it had triggered her.

That's a long winded way to explain that, but yes... .What can I use as a consequence of not respecting my boundaries, but also not triggering abandonment issues, AND not having her split me black for being a "meanie" when she gets in trouble?

Enforcing boundaries doesn't work quite that way.

The way they work is that she doesn't have to "respect your boundaries"... .but when she goes over them, you take action to protect yourself from the consequence of her crossing (or attempting to cross) them... .and she can still split you black or have abandonment issues. (Although the chance of that is reduced a bit)

In addition, the enforcement isn't about creating consequences (or punishment) for her--it is about protecting yourself.

This might be easier to explain in terms of the specific boundary she is crossing.

You can also read more about how to do it in these workshops here:

BOUNDARIES: Upholding our values and independence (https://bpdfamily.com/content/values-and-boundaries)

BOUNDARIES: Case studies  (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=167368.0)

Okay, now we're getting somewhere. I guess my question is... .I initially believe I had set some pretty firm boundaries. If she did something that affected me, and she did that a lot, I would tell her, she would apologize, and would actually do what I asked. For example, I believe I deserve respect. We would make plans to chat at a certain time. She would show up 4 hours late. I would tell her that this was rude. If she showed up four hours late to meet a friend for a movie, how would they feel. She explained that she had severe OCD, which she does (I've seen the effects), told me that had happened, and that she would try to better. And she did.

Another time, she responded to something I wrote in a disrespectful manner. I told her I found it rude, and I didn't deserve to be treated like that. She agreed and changed the behavior.

And then, at some point, that approach, which I would think was fair and reasonable, started to change. I'd ask her a question or point out a behavior and she just wouldn't respond. This would get me frustrated, and I would express my displeasure. She then started accusing me of "flipping my lid" and saying that this "scared her"... .Even though I was perfectly calm. Then she just stopped responding to any attempt to define a boundary. I would have to chase her down and force a confrontation, and she would cry, and we'd reconcile. Then that stopped working... .And I had to threaten consequences, and finally make ultimatums.

Im so confused now. I guess all I can do is just walk away and wait for her to split white and come back, and the try to hit the reset button? Maybe something like "look, I'm not going to leave you, but if you value this relationship then I have to be able to trust you, and communicate effectively with you. And if you don't allow me those things, then you're telling me you don't respect the relationship and I'll have to protect myself" something like that? Because I just think that's going to turn me into a big meanie and she'll start shutting me down again. I'm really confused

 What I hear from your description is that, over time, she began to do things that hurt you, or bothered you, or disappointed you. When it happened, you did the right thing and communicated how you felt. She changed her behavior in response. Then, as to be expected in any relationship, other problems appeared. Rinse and repeat.

It's almost like a parent-child dynamic took hold, where she acted badly, you scolded her, then she complied. Did you ever give her positive reinforcement when she did something good? Like tell her how you appreciate when she calls at the pre-arranged time?

In the example you gave where she was 4 hours late, I can see why that would hurt your feelings. I have been in a relationship before where that kind of thing was chronic, and it really hurts. You can spend a lot of time waiting, ruminating, feeling hurt and angry.   Let's say she is going to be someone who is chronically late -- maybe this behavior never changes. You have a few choices in how you deal with this, maybe others that I'm missing. One choice is to get mad at her, in which case, she might rise to the occasion for a short while and then she's back to old habits. The other choice is to talk to her when you're in a good place, when the problem behavior is in a cooled off state. Put the issue in terms of you protecting yourself. "When people are late, it makes me feel ________. It'll probably happen between us, it's happened before and you saw how I got. I want you to know I'm going to take care of myself about this issue because I don't like how it makes me feel. If for some reason you're running late, I want you to know I'll wait 30 minutes, and then I'll go do other stuff. I can't guarantee I'll be around later if you call, although I'll always want to talk to you."

I'm not BPD, and I would have a hard time with the kind of dynamic where I am told to act this way or else.

You want to give her confidence that you know what you like, you can communicate how you feel, and you can take care of yourself, while at the same time reassuring her that you care about her, and understand that she does xyz, something you can deal with even if it causes you some distress.

That's why boundaries are not about controlling what someone else does. They are about protecting yourself, your feelings. And the consequences to violating these boundaries are usually ones that you feel you can live with, like waiting 30 minutes and then doing something else. It does require some acceptance on your part that she is someone who is chronically late. You are not likely going to change that behavior no matter how controlling you get, and definitely not without pushing her away.

Thanks again for your response.

To answer your questions, generally, at the beginning of the relationship, it was done usually from a calm place. I was stern perhaps, but not really angry per se. When I noticed the same behavior, I would start to get more and more angry, and she would use that against me and accuse me of being "out of control".  I think as she began to devalue me she was less inclined to care about how I felt. I actually used that very mind if language you mention... .When you do this, I feel this, etc.

When she began to just ignore me when I would say these things, it's at this point that I really got off balance. I was made to feel as if my boundaries were somehow an annoyance, or that trying to have these conversations made me weak, and I was always looking for problems. Somehow, my boundaries became the problem, not her behavior. She actually said, after one argument, "why can't I just have something that's easy where I can be myself... ." Which I guess means she just gets to do what she wants and has no consequences and never has to communicate.

I also did use positive reinforcement. I would tell her that I appreciated it when she showed respect for my boundaries. The lateness stopped being an issue because we never really had solid plans. But the disappearing kept being a problem. I would tell her about it, she would agree that it was a problem and say she understood, and a couple days later she would do it again. Her obvious avoidance was a problem too... .If she knew I wanted to talk, then she would suddenly have plans, which would get extended, and her phone would die... .Or she would fall asleep at 7 wake up at 11 (right before she'd normally have to go to bed) send me a couple messages, and then, ostensibly, go back to sleep. There was always an excuse and therefore my trying to set that boundary was somehow unfair because she wasn't doing everything she could to avoid having an adukt conversation about a problem she caused. She just fell asleep. Or whatever.

I dont think that it was you who created this chaos.  In the beginning (honeymoon phase), pwBPD is in a great mood, treats you like gold, says perfect things, behavior is consistent and amazing.

But after a few months, push-pull (zig zag) starts in her mind and behavior and speech gets erratic, unpredictable and irritating.  Non starts reacting to this inconsistent/erratic behavior as he is not used to this.

Non gets angry and frustrated... .says invalidating things or starts criticizing... .this leads to  worsening and pwBPD either starts raging outwardly OR goes in stony silence to push/punish the Non.

This ,sometimes leads to break up with pwBPD quickly finding a replacement or summons a past object to sooth herself... .some go to their family members/friends or just go lie in their bed for hours/days.

She comes out of this and feels worse and wants you to contact her .She feels shame so she will not call you but will wait for you to give a liitle cue . If you do (assuming she is out of dysregulation),

she will reply as if nothing happened and the r/s continues.

Wanttoknowmore

Wow. This is exactly what happened! It's amazing that you can write a generalized pattern of behavior and it would fit so perfectly.

I can remember perfectly when some of these happened. We had just had a really great week connecting, and I thought that finally we had broken through and woukd get somewhere. That was the end of November. Since then, our relationship has been almost entirely texts, with 2-3 emails, 2 phone calls, and one dinner, accompanied by a friend. She was a terrible communicator anyway, but even worse on text. Almost never anything of substance, vanishing in the middle of a conversation with no warning for hours at a time. When I woukd try and enforce my boundaries, she just didn't respond. If I put 5 topics in a message, 4 of which were boundaries, she would respond to the one and just act as if the other stuff wasn't there. When I woukd ask why... .No response. I started to feel like I was the one out of line and that my questions were rude or making me appear weak. So I just stopped asking. If a problem popped up I just said nothing. And wouldn't you know it... .We started having problems because we misinterpreted each other's actions! Imagine that! This is compounded by the fact that I caught her lying multiple times but somehow I had interloped on her personal space by remembering something she said and then noting that it was different than what she said at a later time. Yes. She was acting offended that I didn't trust her when I had caught her lying many times before, and she was doing this in response to having been caught in a lie! And I was so confused at this point that I didn't even know how to respond, and I didn't even want to many times because I knew I'd just catch her in a bunch of lies! Ugh!

When she ended things, I do think the fact that she had met a guy emboldened her somewhat, but it is pretty clear that this was a case of her just lowering her standards and getting some attention as well as successfully managing to get revenge on me for walking away. The guy lives in the same city as me, and isn't going to be an option for replacement, really. I'm sure he won't be giving her financial support like me, and the two of them don't have the resources to fly back and forth. He was a convenient step, but certainly no long term relationship. It's pretty clear she knows this as well, because she has started to post very sexually suggestive posts on certain social media sites. Her solution seems to be to reach out for any kind of attention she can, and the easiest thing possible for someone like her is to degrade herself in a sexual way for attention. Of course, she's not going to get the kind of attention she needs, and I can't see this going well for her. It hasn't before, either, and she's gotten in some really bad situations, but of course never seems to learn. She was bragging that she spent grocery money on lingerie yesterday... .

I kind of wonder what's going to happen at the end of the month when she needs that grocery money? Hmmmmm

Anyway, thank you for your words. They helped me a lot.

when she comes back, if I want to assert a boundary, would a proper method for doing so will be to state it. Then say something like "this is important to me so I want you to read and acknowledge that you've heard me... ." I know that, since she has no honor, her word means nothing, but I care more about my self respect and I will at least be able to have that if I make her acknowledge that she knows what I have said and won't have any excuses as to why she chose to break a certain boundary except that she wanted to. If I have to confront her then, I can go right to being the bad guy for not letting her have her way.

Im so glad things conspired to make me attracted to someone like this. Yeah... .A whole month of being able to imagine that life is exactly the way you'd always hoped... .Better than that, even! Then you get to spend the rest of your life believing you've died and gone to hell.

You're in a tenuous position with her at the moment, so explaining the boundary ahead of time probably won't get much traction, though you could try (casually bringing it up would be better than expecting her to understand the gravity of how you feel. Something like, "Hey, I'm rethinking the way I handle money, and won't be able to help out financially like I have in the past." No need to make the conversation more than it needs to be -- you are simply flagging for her that you have a new, strong boundary.

And then, you protect that boundary, hard! She will test the boundary, maybe trying what has worked in the past, or introducing some new tactics, so be prepared for that. Your response has to align with what you have said, otherwise there goes that self-respect, and her respect for your boundary (and probably you) will disappear too.

Soo... .

Man.

It's been a freaking crazy couple weeks.

I had heard from her a week ago, and things were... .Okay? I told her I was doing fine. I was cool. I didn't show any negative emotion. I thought it was fine. I didn't hear from her for a few days.

She texted me again on Sunday. I was traveling and let it sit, then got back with her on Monday.

Things were a lot different. Better? There was some humor and lightness. There was talk of her coming back down here for a visit.

Then it got weird. She pulled back, and said that whatever was going on with me, she can't make our argument "unhappen", and that she's not over it. She said that she had asked for some space to deal with it, and she still needs space.

Given that I haven't initiated anything with her since the argument happened (that was 3/29) I'm pretty sure I've given her space.

The thing that strikes me about that comment is that... .There was no mention of "space" that night. She said that she didn't think we should restart our relationship because it was "for the best", she "didn't want to be someone that hurts me", etc. she said she didn't want to be with anyone, and asked me to "please go away", which I did... .I'm thinking that's an odd way to spin things. I mean, to me, it wasn't a request for space (that's actually what I would have asked for if she hadn't immediately started talking about ending things... .Or keeping them ended, I guess. But it certainly seems better than the alternative.

That was Monday. Yesterday we talked again. She stayed home from work bc she was sick. Things seemed to be going well. Then she mentioned that she an her roommates were low on food. My "white knight" kicked in, and I offered to send her some groceries.

She seemed... .Okay... .But as the day went on, she grew less open to the idea. She said she didn't want to be a charity case. I tried explaining to her that I didn't see her that way, but it didn't seem to help.

Then I remembered something I had seen in a video made by a girl with BPD. She was talking about how she didn't like to say thanks or to apologize bc she felt that it made her "beholden" to the other person. And it kind of clicked for me.

I told her that I was sorry for trying to hold over her head the fact that I had done her favors. I was wrong and I was sorry. I wouldn't do it again.

She had been silent for a couple hours, but then immediately responded with "I understand"


I told her theb that I felt like I understood how she processed things. I had not really gotten it until we had been apart for awhile, but I had studied and done lots of reading, and I saw now how I made her uncomfortable. For now on, I was going to take things less personally. I wouldn't force her into emotional situations. I would always try and see her side before I responded.

I said that I knew it would take time, but I didn't want to be someone who made her uncomfortable. Woukd she let me show her, starting now?

An immediate yes.

I asked if I could buy her groceries. Now she was fine with it, and things were smooth the rest of the night.

She texted me today, and we were having a nice little talk. Somehow, I made a sort of sexual joke, and her response wasn't so receptive. I stayed calm and just asked a couple questions, and she replied that she didn't want me to think that she had "some evil plan... ." I'm assuming she's responding to the way I responded about what happened after we broke up.

I simply said that I didn't ever think that. That I always thought we had good chemistry in that area and it was part of who we were. I didn't want her to ever think she couldn't talk to me about something, that included. She didn't respond to that.

So I apologized once more. I told her that, kind of like I was saying last night, I didn't always understand her thought process and would take things personally that she didn't intend as such. It was a mistake and that I'd made a lot of them but I felt like I had a better understanding of who she was now.

She finally responded to that by saying "I understand. Sorry, bed time"

I wrote back and said that I understood, and that I needed to go to bed too (I started a new job today, also) That she didn't need to apologize, and everything was fine. And to sleep tight.

Now, I'm guessing she didn't want to get into the sexual talk bc she prob doesn't trust me with it, and bc it has caused some pretty unpleasant clashes in the past. But I feel like what I did, trying to get across the point that I didn't see her point of view and I'm going to do my best to do that from now on, is a good thing? I don't want to force an "emotional" point but I figure if it's all me and I don't make her engage, that apologies are fair game?

I'm guessing there might be some "unpacking" of some issues soon... .Kind of like the past couple days. Other than stay calm, validate her POV, listen and try to keep things light, is there anything else that I should do? I was thinking about telling her to let me know if a topic bothered her. I'm really just trying to help us fix things, and it's hard for me to know if that's the case but I don't want her having any uncomfortable exchanges with me. So feel free to let me know and I'll just drop it. Or does that put too much of the onus on her to act and make her uncomfortable anyway? I don't know.

But I've used a lot if the things I've found out here, and she seems to at least want me around. I am prepping for that first time she pushes a boundary, but I'm prepared to say that I can't accept that behavior. I really have no intention of leaving her but at the same time she needs to respect my beliefs and boundaries. And that I'm going to go for the time being bc I don't want to make anything worse, but I want her to understand that while I love her very much, I have to love me first. Otherwise I'm no good to her or anyone else. And that what has happened is something that really bothers me.

Does this entire post sound like a good course of action?

Hi oblivian,

Sounds like some positive signs  :)

The groceries issue sounds like a rich example to learn from. When she says that she and her roommate are getting low on groceries, why not ask her a validating question. "Is there anything you would like me to do?" Let her be responsible for asking, let her be vulnerable and state exactly what she wants. If she is not ready to ask, or if she wants only validation, that's on her. Someone with engulfment issues will respond better when options are presented as choices.

I'm also wondering about the apologies. "I promise to not make you uncomfortable," probably set you up for "I'm sorry I made you uncomfortable." Over and over. It seems like over promising something not realistic. Especially because BPD is feelings driven. How can you not make her uncomfortable if she is feeling uncomfortable? It sets you up to appease her over something she has not explicitly asked you to do (although she may like the offer, who wouldn't!)

When you say you are prepping for the first time she violates a boundary, what do you mean by that? What boundary? How will you respond?

As for the groceries, I know from experience that she won't ever ask me for anything. She'll present an issue and let me know she needs some help, but she told me she had a problem coming out and asking for help. I guess that makes sense, since she doesn't want to feel beholden to anyone or like she owes people favors?

As for the apologies, I think I needed to say that bc it de-escalated her level of discomfort and made her okay with the way it was framed... .And it's true... .I did take things personally. Granted, a lot of what she did was messed up in a normal relationship. I'm not sure how much malice was intended, although I do think I was split black at one point.

Now, I think she's splitting me back white. I'm trying to completely earn her trust back. But the fact that she changed her tune about the "end" of the relationship and saying it was "space" is pretty telling, I think.

I tried to outline how I would respond to the boundary thing toward the end of my last message. Does it sound doable?

My husband thinks my son and I are going to attack him, I force our son to attack him, his parents got a protection order against me so he can visit them., and when I could not be talked into a divorce they convinced him, he thinks it was his idea.and on and on am I crazy ?  What ?