BPDFamily.com

So today i left my BPDw of 15yrs, and 3 kids (12/9/5). it was the most difficult thing I think I've ever done - and it doesn't feel real yet.

It took me all weekend! I had planned to talk on Thursday night. But my biggest failure was I didn't plan for her to object to me leaving (of COURSE she was going to object - there was NO WAY she was going to say "sure - leaving is a good choice" - but I had failed to plan for that... .). So I talked, then backed down when she told me how my plan would affect her. On Sat arvo I raised the conversation again - asking her to tell me where i was and what I wanted/needed in the relationship. She blamed all the problems on me of course. Then today (monday) I raised it again - where she told me that the life I wanted was a fantasy, and that NO-ONE with kids and jobs has what i want. When she was talking I *almost* believed her - there was much truth in what she was saying. The only thing that saved me was the knowledge that if I didn't leave, if I backed down, then she would have that power over me always.

So i left. Immediately I felt remorse, guilt, unsure. Was this the biggest mistake i'd made? I sat in a park for 2hrs thinking about the conversation, evaluating every point she made and pulling it apart. And in the end, I came to realise that nothing she said was true.

But I still feel like sh1t. I still have no idea what the next few weeks, months or years of life will look like. I want to see my kids, I want to care for and support my wife (I still love her as a deep friend), and i want to live. How will that happen?

This is a monumental decision, and it seems to have been a long time coming, given that you've been strugggling. Where are you staying now, and has there been talk about the kids? Or too soon?

As someone who left a BPD SO, I can tell you that you made the right decision. You need to start over from zero.

You say that you want to care for and support your wife. Don't. This alone means that you're giving her power over you. She might be troubled - but it's HER troubles, not yours. She's a grown woman and she needs to care for herself. You need to make sure YOU are well off, and that's that. That's how life works, despite you being taught otherwise (most likely by your mother) during early childhood.

Today - my uBPDxgf calls me now and then and cries over issues. I usually try to listen for a while, but it usually ends up with her pushing her problems onto me or ask me to solve them for her, at which point I bluntly tell her "hey, it's no my problem that you can't transport furniture you want to buy to your place" or "it's not my problem you can't afford something you want really bad." And I honestly haven't felt this good in years. My life is great. I work, study, go to the gym, read a lot, take care of myself and my home, and people really like being around me. I don't need someone to take a dump on me every single day, telling me how worthless I am (explicitly or implicitly). Life is great.

Abandon that crap my friend, you deserve better. And if she thinks she deserves to have a better life (in regards to all her problems), it's up to HER to take care of that, not you.

ArleighBurke,

I have wondered what it would be like making this same decision. I have imagined myself feeling EXACTLY how you are feeling right now.

The only thing that saved me was the knowledge that if I didn't leave, if I backed down, then she would have that power over me always.

You know what you need. From other replies you make on other posts you seem to have a similar issue that I have with my wife regarding sexual intimacy. Is that a big part of your decision to leave? Knowing it will never be normal?

I know, sometimes I feel like I let my wife have a certain power over me just to keep an amount of outward "peace" but on the inside I am struggling.

If you know in your heart you have done everything you can (which I am sure you have) to make your relationship work. Just hang in there, I know that sounds cliche.

I look back at how my ex wife left me. I called her one day when I was at work and she just told me she was leaving me. When I got home that day her stuff was already gone. I knew we were having some issues but it shocked me. Looking back though if she had not made that decision to do something that drastic we may still be married and miserable. In her case she was cheating on me and I didn't know it and then come to find out she said she never really was in love with me. I am glad now she is out of my life.

I hope things work out for you.

  This is a really tough choice, and it won't feel simple or easy, no matter what you do or how you do it.

Keep us updated on how things are going.

Don't want to intrude on your thread, but I've come to the same conclusion, and we're separating after 11 years married. I have been thinking about it for a long time of course, and this morning it was the final straw when my wife started an argument. I told her I have decided for real this time.

She panicked and wanted to tell the kids immediately (10 and 12), and did so. Not the best choice in my opinion, but there's no real turning back now I think. Might write more about this later (in another thread).

It's certainly the hardest thing. There was no big fight, or adultry, or anything that exploded to make the trigger. It was just "time".

I feel so conflicted about it. Perhaps there was more I could have done? Perhaps the life I want *is* unrealistic?Perhaps I *AM* condemning the kids to a horrible split home? She never physically abused me, and this wasn't her fault. Perhaps I could have just "held out" until the kids were older? I know how much I've hurt her, and I feel guilt. She's also got the 3 kids as a single mum. It's only been 1 day so we havn't worked out "visiting arrangements" yet (the kids think I'm on a work trip for a week. I did offer that SHE leave and I stay with the kids but I knew she'd never go for that). I'm not sure how it'll work out. I want to sneak into the home when she's not there and help her manage - vacuum, cook her dinner, washing.

Yet I also feel free. And excited! I can't wait to explore the world again - to choose what to do. To enjoy life.

And I'm also confused. Within hours of leaving I was on RSVP - "just looking". The thought of dating is extremely aluring and I don't know why. I'm pretty sure it's not for sex - perhaps excitement? Or connection? But it's too soon surely.

I don't know if I've made the right choice or not. But i know I cannot go back. She will never feel the same about me, or trust me, ever again. If I go back, she will always hold back, always have an excuse to feel distant, always have an excuse to blame me for anything bad in the relationship. For better or worse, this is the road I am now on.

It certainly is hard. I'm not sure there is more you could have done though - you did what you could at the time.

I think it will work out.

The freedom is certainly new and exciting for me also, although I know there are lots of steps ahead of me before I can really enjoy it.

Is it a good thing, or a bad thing that she will never feel the same about you?  

Can I be so bold as to interpret what I am hearing?  

What I am hearing is that you are NOT ever going back to THAT marriage that you left.  That is a choice.  None of us will judge you for that.  In fact I applaud you for taking action about something you have clearly thought about for a while.   |iiii       It is obvious this was a hard thing for you to do.

What to do about the conflicted feelings?  I want to point you back to choices again.

Honor your choice to leave THAT marriage.  Take some time (now that you have space) to think about your wife.  Is there a marriage with her that you see working FOR YOU?  Is that something you are willing to explore if she is willing?

If not, you continue on your path.

If so, then give her the choice, (and space and time to process and make a choice).  This could turn into a TS if BOTH parties want it.

The power of choices is HUGE.  If you make your choice and she makes hers, then I think you will have a much better time letting go of the questions, "could I have done more?"  etc etc.

At the start of two summers ago, I reported my wife to CPS for spankings that were out of control.  I knew that she would NEVER EVER look at me (feel about me) the same way.  But I made a choice.  Nothing was forced on me, even though I would rather have not had to make the choice.  

We were apart for many months and then got back together.  

 

I hope this helps.  Last bit of advice.  :)on't worry about sneaking in and "helping her vacuum".  Focus on self care!

FF

Hey ArleighBurke,  I admire your courage.  Six years ago, I left my BPDxW after 13 years of marriage, with two kids.  I never considered going back.  It felt so good to be free from abuse and daily confrontations.  I enjoyed regaining peace and sanity in my life.  For a long time, I felt like sh*t, but it was better to be in my own pain than be in hers.  Had I stayed, I would probably be dead.  I know that sounds dramatic, but I ran myself into the ground emotionally, physically and financially in my marriage to a pwBPD.  I was worn to a pulp!  Lost myself for a while there.  Not fun.  Yet I can confirm that leaving has led to greater happiness for me.  In my view, you are on the right path.

LuckyJim

Wow, this must be hard, ArleighBurke!  But it sounds like it is the right thing for you at this time.

I would encourage you to spend some time healing and working on yourself before you even think about dating.  My stbxBPD came after me when I was fresh out of a marriage and not even thinking about dating.  But he came on so strong and seemed like a dream come true.  It was not.  You are vulnerable and needy and perfect bait for a PD person.  I would hate to see you back here in a few years with a story like mine.  :'(

Be strong and keep posting here for support.  If you are truly moving on, the detaching board is a great place for support in your decision to break away.

 

I second that about holding off on dating.

Or,

If you are going to date, be very open about where you are and that you are looking for casual stuff right now.

Still   red-flag   in your compromised position you could be looking for casual stuff and "find" something you believe is more serious and ignore  red-flag  because of your compromised state.

Rescue yourself, don't let anyone else pull you out of this.  You will be much stronger for it.

FF

Focus now on being civil/reasonable with your wife and getting to spend time with your kids.

You may need to look at legal options for getting shared custody... .do consider posting your situation on the Legal board here for advice, and consulting with a lawyer. I'm sure you don't want to get into a legal battle with your wife, but knowing where you stand is critical for you if it does come to that.

It is fine to think about dating... .but you aren't in a position stable enough to be much of a catch today. At best you are ready for casual dating or encounters, if you want that. Still, anybody who would *WANT* to get involved with a guy who just moved out of the house with his kids and his abusive wife a week ago ... .well ... .lets just say that the hypothetical woman who would think this is a good idea too messed up to be a good candidate for any kind of relationship!

Actually the most important thing to focus on is taking care of yourself!

Start with making your apartment a safe and friendly place for you... .and by making sure your car, phone, and other necessities are in order... .and making sure you are eating well, sleeping well, getting some exercise, and staying in contact with what supportive friends and family you have.

this would be the advice I would give. I made this mistake. I thought I knew where my head was. I remember having that feeling of being free but I did not take time to figure things out after my wife left me.

just be careful

Thanks all.

I snuck into the family home today and cooked a dinner for the wife and kids (left it in the fridge), and did the dishes. I don't want her to think I've "dumped" her with all the responsibility and i get to have this fantastic single life.

She txt'd me "thanks for making my day a little easier. i miss you."

... .and now I feel sh!t again! I just want to crawl into bed and spend the rest of the day/night there. I know I've hurt her and I'm still not sure I did the right thing.

I also realised today that I havn't actually made the commitment to leave for good. (I was thinking about if I dated then that would actually be an affair, and I felt bad about that). But I appriciate what FormFlier said: that although I may go back to her, it will be a different marraige. I hadn't though of it like that. But I don't know how I'll ever be able to make that choice to go back. I'm sure my wife will promise everything, and I'll be in the same position in 12 months time with nothing changed.

I do feel I'm in a good place physically and emotionally. I had my breakdown 3 yrs ago, and have worked quite hard since then to become emotionally strong and lose my dependency. 

Why do you say that you hurt her? You did a nice thing, and she responded kindly.

I hurt her by leaving her and moving out.

I know exactly how you feel. At home yesterday I heard her talk to her mother and a friend on the phone, crying, and it makes me feel like an absolutely horrible person. The knee jerk response is to go back to the way things were and sacrifice my own happiness - but I'm trying hard not to this time. She knows exactly how to play on my guilt.

It's also interesting how my problems (feeling unappreciated, like a doormat, mentally exhausted after all this time), and wanting to do something about it -

are now turned into all about her and her problems (she can't live alone, she can't live without the kids, she's depressed etc etc)

You did something for yourself that you have been thinking about for a while.

Your wife may have bad feelings about it.  Those feelings are not your "fault".

She is responsible for handling her feelings, you are responsible for handling yours. 

It's one thing to have empathy for what your wife may be feeling, it's another to take responsibility for anothers feelings.

Do you think you are feeling empathy, or taking responsibility?

FF

I have some thoughts about this, not advice, but ideas from reading and observing friends go through this process. Since I am female, the friends are female. I don't know their partner's sides of the story.


The one thing that stood out for me in all I have read about marriages is that we match our partner. That we attract certain people who match us in emotional ways - some of which we are not even aware of. Leaving one partner without processing/emotional growth is likely to result in choosing someone with whom we play out our issues.

As to dating/affairs- starting a relationship while being in another one/still emotionally tied up is likely to be problematic because we have not dealt with the issues in ourselves that matched the original problem. Rebound relationships can be problematic because the person who is rebounding is not emotionally available and is prone to seeking sex/relationship as a form of comfort. This could be a problem for both- one partner isn't available to the other, and also the hurting partner needs to learn to self soothe, not use sex, or co-dependency for comfort.

I recall thinking I read something about taking a 2 year break between relationships. I would imagine that would vary some.

So, of my friends group. One of them is I think on husband #4. Each time, she says this is it, this is the man of my dreams. When one H leaves, or they break up, she soon "falls in love" again.

I have a couple of friends whose husbands left them for another woman they were cheating with. These friends were devastated. They went through a period of grief, counseling. They focused on raising the kids, getting the kids into T and went to T themselves. They quite literally rebuilt their lives again without their H's. Then, years later, they would meet a man and proceed slowly to a committed relationship.

I have a friend who reconciled with her H. They were at the point of hiring lawyers. With extensive counseling for both of them, they have rebuilt their marriage.

( I have friends who have stayed married too - but these are the ones who I know have dealt with separation)

My conclusion from reading and watching my friends is that anything can happen, but to have something different takes time and emotional work.

Also co-dependency is an addiction, just like a drug. The urge to help others is to relieve ourselves of our own bad feelings. So, the sneaking into the house to clean up and cook- was this act out of FOG? Yes, it was kind, but you felt bad afterwards. Something to think about.

Yeah, dating websites look good. You're human. But perhaps it is wise to beware of what attracts you at this moment. Time, emotional work, counseling, seems to me to be the path to something different no matter with whom you are with.

Are there concrete actions that she could promise to take (and then perform) that would show a genuine change?  What would that be?

Realize also that you are making a deal with a disordered person.

My wife says lots of different reasons why we don't spank the kids anymore.  Many times blamed or directed at me.  She rarely takes any kind of responsibility for that change.  

However, she doesn't spank the kids.

What I am trying to say is that you need to list what you want, and we can help you figure out if it is reasonable/possible.

Sure, I would love it if my wife took responsibility and said things right.  It is much more important to me that she do things correctly.  In this case not spanking the kids.

Focus on actions, not promises.

FF

ArleighBurke, you did move out into an apartment... .and for good reason.

You've been gone for how long now? A week?

This doesn't need to be a "forever" thing. Many couples have had a split like this, whether it lasts a day, a week, a month, or a year. (Like Notwendy's examples)

It is pretty clear that you need this right now to be safe, to protect yourself from abuse, and to heal a bit. Do that.

It is OK to leave the door open a crack, not knowing what will feel right in the future. The future for you and your wife (together and apart) depends on both your choices and hers. You have no idea what she will choose, and probably are having trouble even knowing what you will chose!

Hey again, WSK,

There's nothing wrong with taking a break in order to gain a better perspective, so don't beat yourself up.  I suggest that you proceed cautiously, however, before agreeing to a recycle.

Many of us (read: me) have recycled, some many times.  Problem is: you often wind up in the same place except that it's more painful to leave the next time.

There's a reason why you moved out.  Don't lose sight of this reason, is my suggestion.

LuckyJim

Thanks for sharing your story. Please keep us updated. It can really help those of us prepare for when we are ready to do the same thing.

I did leave for a reason. Sometimes it's hard to explain why exactly. Here's my try:

• she wouldn't "do" anything with me. Not socialising with friends, not dating, not even "home dates". She justified this for a whole bunch of reasons (we don't "need" to go out to be together, she gets anxious leaving the kids with a babysitter, she doesn't know my friends, she hates doing active/physical things with me because she feels 'shown up' when I'm better than her (I'm NOT competitive), she has sore back/feet, NO full time working mum has energy)



• she has a very bad view of sex. She has childhood sexual assault issues which cause her to feel strong negative emotions about sex, touching, kissing. Most times I cannot touch her without her feeling threatened/scared. She won't even french kiss unless it's part of sex. Any sexual advance/interest/mention has a 50% chance of causing her to "close up". My love language is touch, so this made me feel pushed away often.



• It's hard to talk with her. Many conversation topics trigger strong responses. If i express views/values different to her she feels threatened. There are SOO many topics that I've black listed



• She blames me alot for how she feels. I could *almost* live with this if i get validation correct.

I would like to think that she could change some of these things - but I doubt it very much. She didn't choose to have abuse, or BPD, so i feel guilty that i judge her based on it. But I know I have to. It's about whether she is trying to change. And she's not. She believes that "she is" and cannot change.

But assuming she tries, what would her "actions" look like:

• We'd date. We'd do *something* together every week or 2.



• Somehow we'd be more physical. I don't mind if we kept our current sex frequency, but would love more kissing and touching. I tried to instigate a "deep 30sec kiss" daily with her - but she objected so strongly because "what if she wasn't in the mood?"



• She accept I can be different to her without threatening her. How does she demonstrate this? Perhaps BPD therepy? Her current psych of 9yrs isn't effective. Perhaps if she agreed to see someone else - someone our marriage counsellor (BPD expert) recommended she see?

My fear is that she can force herself to do those things for a while, appearing like she's OK but inside she's not comfortable with it at all and eventually she explodes. She has done that many times in the past when i open up to her. Why should I think this time is different?

I think it is a reasonable fear to be concerned that a spouse would hold it together for a while, and then revert back to old behaviors, because these are the only "tools" in their behavioral tool box they have that they know to do.

I would say that for most of us, our relationship tools are the ones we have, they are familiar and we have been interacting with them for a long time.

What I have seen from people who successfully reconciled was that both people were willing to take on the task of personal growth with a T. It wasn't quick. It was a consistent effort over time. For my friend, I know that they backtracked at times - into old patterns, old behaviors- as that is habitual, but then, they would be able to recognize that these behaviors didn't work, and with the help of a T, get back on track.

How much change your wife is capable, and what you want, and your own personal work would need to be determined between the two of you. But regardless, doing your own personal work/growth would benefit you in all relationships.

I'm not sure about whether I am leaving the marriage or not. I moved out 5 days ago.

I called her tonight. I said I wasn't ready to come home, but I proposed coming home for the weekend, early sat morning to late sun evening to see her and the kids. I said I was happy to hear her thoughts about it and negotiate.

She said it was difficult because she was in limbo, and she wouldn't know where things were at with us, so coming home woudln't work.

Her: You either need to be in or out

Me: I think there are many states in between those.

Her: For you maybe. But not me.

Me: I know that "in" is a loving marriage. What does "out" look like?

Her: Out of the marriage

Me: So you're saying that you don't want to see me until I've decided whether I'm in or out?

Her: Yes.

Me: I understand this is difficult for you. I feel like this isn't quite fair. I think that being with you would help. If we are trying to build back up, then being around each other (not intimately) would be good.

Her: Marriage is a combination of good friendship and intimacy. They wax and wane. You need to decide whether you'll <something like put in or not>.

Me: I hope we always have our good friendship. It's the intimacy part I'm not sure about. Can't we just be good friends for the weekend?

Her: You're either in or out.

She then sent a text "I am sorry i can't dangle. People at work are asking questions and I don't know what to say - I don't want to say "my husband moved out" and put you in bad light. There is so much I want to say but I know you need space... ."

My friend pointed out that the text she sent was about what "other people" think - nothing about her. She also said the same just before I moved out when I proposed being around home all the time but not sleeping there - "what do we tell the kids?"

I did tell her a few days before I left what I was struggling with: that I missed going out and living life with her, and that it hurt not being able to be physical with her.

This is a pretty typical response with black and white thinking. You are either in or out.

It is also a way to manage her feelings. The in between stage is hard. If you are out, then the process of grief can proceed. "In" ends he feelings.

I think pw BPD prefer the magic erase method. ( for them not you, they don't forgive easily) but would like to see things just go back to the way they were. This can include a honeymoon stage where all is well--- until the next conflict.

Conflicts are inevitable in any relationship. It is their inability( and often ours too) to deal with them in a mature way that makes them more difficult.

I think it is natural to have fears, regrets. Few relationships are all bad. ( or all good). It is hard to give up the good parts along with the bad. This is a tough choice. Of course you will have ambivalent feelings. But you also need to stand your boundaries here if setting them is to mean anything. She has given you the choice of all in or all out. You aren't ready to make either. You can hold your ground, and will possibly be punished for a while. However, it is also possible that once she sees that you are holding your ground, and she can not coerce you with her all or none request, she may be open to negotiation ( or not). It may not be right away. But this is a first step in establishing a relationship where your boundaries are considered, and you don't cave to all her wants. Upholding boundaries is a risk. pw BPD don't like them. Their first reaction can be to cut off the relationship entirely. But boundaries don't mean much if they are not upheld.

Well said, Notwendy.  The use of an ultimatum, "you're either all in or all out," is a form of manipulation, or coercion, as Notwendy suggests.  Fact is, there are plenty of other options between these two extremes.  Don't cave in to her demands, is my suggestion.

LuckyJim

The whole intimacy/marriage/partnership thing wasn't working for you at all the way it was... .that's why you left! This makes the "in or out" choice particularly difficult for you.

These sort of all or nothing choices are a problem for both of you, and you've gotten good advice on it.

What about changing the discussion with her to one about you seeing the kids?

I'm assuming you know whether you want to be "in or out" as a parent... .that you want to see them and support them as a parent.

Focus on that.

I DO want to see the kids. I think that she's just really not sure how to frame it to them. She doesn't want to have to explain why dad is only around a little bit - which is why she suggested it was easier for me just to go away "for work" for a few weeks. I did suggest coming home for the weekend - then having to go away for work again - but she still said no.

I got a phone call this morning from her at 7AM. My brother (a really nice guy) emailed her with what I presume was a supportive message.

She was distraught and in tears. I did say sorry and was validating a LOT in the conversation, but I've removed those from below. Here are the snippets:

Her: I just received am email from your brother. What did you tell him?

Me: Just that I had moved out temporarily and that we were trying to work through things.

Her: What do you mean you've moved out? I thought you were just taking some time to think.

Her: Who else have you told?

Her: You left me. Like everyone else you left me alone!

Me: I meant what I said last night - I do value our friendship. I want you to stay as part of my life - I just don't know in how much of my life.

Her: (something about that doesn't work or she can't do that)

Her: You've given up. After 18yrs you've just walked away. You should be trying to fix this. How can you fix things when you're not here?

Me: I feel like we've been trying to fix this for the last year.

Her: How can I help when you're not here.

Me: When I told you what I was struggling with you pretty much just told me what i wanted was unrealistic.

Her: 5 counselling sessions is not trying to fix things (the sessions SHE stopped). You need to stay and keep trying.

Her: Come home to your family.

Me: That is a nice thought.

Her: (Something... .) kids have to choose their loyalties and know who to blame.

So I went to a meetup group function tonight, a group I've never been to. I'm not quite sure why, and I almost didn't go, but i think I'm trying to see what "normal" is. It was in town, at a food festival. I didn't know anyone.

When i walked around the festival i was looking at everyone there. Families, couples, groups. There were kids feeding the ducks, playing games, live music. I sat on the grass in my new group and just chatted about anything/nothing with peopel I didn't know. It felt fantastic! I thought - why can't I have this with my family? But my wife wouldn't. She would be anxious in the open spaces, anxious around the crowds, anxious around new people, worrying about the kids being molested, wandering off. Even if it was with our own friends there would still be much worry. Even if it was our own friends in our own backyard - she'd still be anxious. And that's just her. It's not her fault - but can I live with it?

One of the people I met tonight was a single mum with 2 kids, has full time care (but grandparent support), works full time and is studying. SHE made time to come to the festival for a few hours. Another girl - same deal. And there were many families there. So my wife's suggestion that "we have to sacrifice our lives for the kids" seems wrong.

When I have time apart from my wife, I start to think that perhaps the marraige isn't so bad - that I'm exagerating how bad things are. I wonder perhaps I'm just selfish and if I go back things can be good. But it's not just about not going out with her. It's not just about her anxieties. It's about her excuses for not doing anything, not taking care of herself, her basically hiding from life, me feeling empty.

Consider that you both brought your set of relationship tools to the marriage and arrived at some sort of balance. She uses the tools that work for her. You responded with the tools you had to keep things in balance.

We use what works. If her response to something is distress, blame ( you, something else, someone else) and your response is to try to fix things, then you will respond by accommodating. Being able to self soothe is a skill. If she turns to you with her distress-  this upsets you.  You then respond by soothing your discomfort by soothing her by accommodating.

Been in this place many times as co-dependency is a habit I learned. I can't make anyone learn to manage their own feelings but I can be aware that I need to manage my own feelings when someone close to me is distressed, because if I help my feelings by helping their feelings, then neither of us learn to manage our own feelings.

Your wife is anxious when the two of you go out? Your solution has been not to go out. If you go out, she feels bad, so instead of you feeling bad because she feels bad, you don't go out. But you could have chosen to go out, even if she chose not to, but then you might face her being unhappy.

As to her message to you, it is understandable. She feels angry, hurt, scared and is blaming you. But this kind of separation is difficult, for anyone. Each of you will have to deal with your feelings- and you can not control what she does. If her main relationship tool is to blame, project- then she is who she is- and if this tool worked for her for all these years, why wouldn't she use it.

If your main relationship tool is as a rescuer- and this has been the familiar tool for you for years, you will probably tend to do this too. But if you want something different, you will need to learn different ways to relate to her, and others. This isn't something people learn quickly, or easily, in or out of a relationship.

I can't tell you what to do- that will be up to you. At this point, you have a mix of emotions. My own feeling about times of ambivalence, uncertainty, stress, is to work out some of these feelings before making major decisions if at all possible- to leave for good, go back, get into another relationship. Your wife has given you an all or none option, but if the honest response is " I don't know honey, right now I am upset and confused and need to sort my feelings out" then that is where you are at for now.

Hey wsk, I hear a lot of F-O-G in her phone call to you. 

"You need to stay and keep trying" (obligation); "You've given up" (guilt); "kids have to choose their loyalties" (fear), etc.

What I don't hear is her taking any responsibility for the current situation or making any suggestions as to what the two of you might do to change things to a healthier dynamic.

I doubt you will hear that, because those w/BPD are loathe to blame themselves for the problems and conflicts they create.

Suggest you hold your ground and let the dust settle before you do anything.

Change is in the air, which I view as a good thing.

Hang in there,

LuckyJim

Hi ArleighBurke,

With BPD divorces that involve kids, you basically swap out known challenges for new ones. The challenges don't go away, they change.

You seem desperate to get out of the home and catch a breath, and it's important that you listen to that instinct. It could be that this is one part of you trying to take care of another part of you, and you're conflicted because the part that wants to catch a breath isn't one you listen to a whole lot. So it's good that you're taking care of yourself. Moving out without a clear plan suggests to me that you have been in free fall and you just pulled the rip cord. Maybe try to judge your actions less in terms of being selfish and more in terms of survival.

It also seems like there is some magical thinking going on, at least in terms of life post-divorce. Are you imagining that if you divorce, you and your wife can remain friends, and you'll be able to visit the kids and swing by to clean the house and cook for them? What kind of relationship do you have with the kids now, and what do you imagine it will be like after the divorce? What kind of relationship do you want with your kids?

I wonder, too, if you and your wife might be good candidates for doing a therapeutic separation, although whether it works or not comes down to many variables, including some that may be hard to see when you're in the marriage.

TOOLS: Therapeutic Separation (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=141686.0)

Sometimes the bad habits of the relationship are so ingrained on a day to day basis that recovering from within the current living situation is nearly impossible. Many couples hang in there hoping for the best and when it doesn't come, end up in a divorce that neither may have really wanted. There is an alternative - therapeutic separation - members here have had varying levels of success and failure with this.

Hi Williamskevin,  I have been reading this thread and   hugs to you.  Notwendy gives some very good advice about the codependent habit of accomodating her to feel better yourself.  I have been working on undoing this habit myself.  It is a very hard one to break.  But, with lots of practice and perseverance, it can be done.

Also, livedandlearned makes a good point about a possible "therapeutic separation".  I eould share that in my case, I was out of the house, just grown kids, so not so challenging, but still after decades together leaving was wrenching.  After several months I moved back in and things have been a work in progress since I moved back.  I have committed myself to improving my situation, peace, happiness and my life in general.  This has meant a lot of different things.  My husband felt abandoned and has had a hard time trusting me again.  But, it has been worth it because I know what kind of life I want and have made significant changes.  I never thought this would happen, but just recently he said something like when you left me at Christmas last year (I didn't fall for that guilt trip and defend myself) I learned to be more self-sufficient and that has made things better for you, hasn't it? And actually it has!  And he realizes it.   The separation gave me space and breathing room to make some decisions about what kind of life I would move forward with.

Also, like Lucky Jim says,it is not all or nothing or black or white.  In the book, Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist, the author points out that there are many ways to live.  You have to decide what is best for you. If you are not ready to decide then that is a choice, too.  

Finally, I don't know if you are religious, but acceptance is certainly something we all have to practice having a relationship with a pwBPD (or any other person lol). The Serenity Prayer is still solid advice - courage to change the things we can change, patience to accept the things we cannot change, wisdom to know the difference.  One more thing I would add that has helped me is that I cannot control a lot of things, but God can do things if we just let go.  Weird, but I have been a Christian for a long time and this is still something that I am forever learning.  

I am glad you posted.  Wishing you the best, I think you will find it.  

Mustbeabetterway

So after a very difficult Friday/Sat/Sun, with my uBPDw taking time off work, having the kids being looked after so she could fall apart, etc, we finally started actually talking. We actually emailed because we've found previously that it allows us to choose our words more carefully and is less in-your-face.

She said she wanted me back, and promised to change "everything". I didn't listen to that. Or her pleading on the kids behalf and everything else. But there were 2 things she did say that I did listen to:

- She said she'd dropped her anti-depressents a while back, and perhaps that was making her more edgy. And she suggested she try a new psychologist (like our MC recommended a few months back).

- And she was able to state EXACTLY what I wanted in the relationship. She said it was achievable (even though she'd said previously that she couldn't do it)

So I agreed to come back, to work on things with her, and re-assess in 3 months. She says that if I'm not happy after 3 months then she would "let me leave". I don't believe that! But I am truely dedicated to trying to make it work - i would certainly prefer to stay with her and the kids than to leave. I am going to ensure that the new psychologist she sees is a BPD specialist, and that is where my biggest hope is - that she will learn some tools and we can start to really make progress. I'm not expecting rainbows - just slow steady progress in the right direction.

I don't know where this will end up. Perhaps it is still doomed. But perhaps my wife's desire for family, desire for the marraige and her general stubborness will enable us to move forwards. After 16yrs of marriage I think another few months is well worth it. I will keep you all posted... .

(And my counsellor told me today just what you all have been telling - don't try to solve HER problems - let HER suggest and impliment the solutions).

Just wanted to say that I got a text from my wife this morning stating essentially just this. Interesting how the patterns can be so similar... .

With or without your wife, if anything is going to change, IMHO, there needs to be a change in you. The patterns between you are very habitual. At this point, your part of this relationship- your relationship skills- are the same ones you had when you left. You may have scared her momentarily, and she may very well be sincere in her wishes to change and for things to be different, but the skills she has are still the ones she has.

This takes some work- MC is good, but I also think it means some personal T. If you set boundaries, you will need to be able to handle her distress. This isn't about her being different, but you being different. Naturally, nobody wants to hurt someone on purpose, or do truly hurtful things, but having any boundaries can result in a pw BPD feeling distress. It becomes a choice. However, they are adults, and can learn to manage their feelings better if allowed to do so. Our task is to manage ours.

I'm pretty impressed by your boldness. Good luck and I'm sorry because I'm sure this was a very difficult decision to come by. You have done what I believe many of us long to do at times, but for one reason or another are just cant take the action that you have.

I've got a strong alternative recommendation for you regarding this choice of yours:


Don't just keep us posted here. Post as frequently as you can how it is going on the Improving board instead. The mission there is to make what you have better, and you've got a lot to do still.

Your wife obviously has a lot of work to do to make things work.

You can do a lot of work on yourself--and if you do, it will help you in any relationship you get into, not just this one. It will also give her more space to deal with her own issues.

So go over there and post your story. I'd suggest a brief background and then start with what your plans are for moving back in, and how you expect it to go... .or how it actually went, looking for ways to make it better on your side of things.

And let me also say that I'm really impressed with your willingness to try to do this the best and hardest way. I know how hard it is. I've changed my role in a marriage where I was abused without leaving it, and it was one of the toughest things I ever did, but also one of the most rewarding accomplishments I'm proudest of.

hey wsk, What makes you think it will go differently this time?  I recycled numerous times and am not judging your decision either way.  I used various rationalizations to justify staying, some of which were pretty far-fetched.  I finally reached the end of the line.  Think you will know it when and if you get there (maybe you won't and hope you don't).

LuckyJIm

The biggest (and probably only) hope I have, is that her changing psychologist will prompt change. Her current one (of 9yrs) seems to be doing nothing. They talk each week about "being OK with herself". It's lose CBT.

I am going to make sure that her new psych is a BPD expert, and will "pre-educate" them on how I see things (our history and progress).

I think the other difference is that I've now demonstrated that I *can* leave. I think that really shook her. It may be a bad thing - in that she may never be able to trust me again - but she wasn't trusting me anyway (because 3yrs ago I didn't have an affair but she considers i did). I can quite easily see her being a perfect wife for the next few months until things start to slide again.

Things may change - but they also may not. Untimately I didn't really have anything to lose by going back to her. I consider my mental health to be pretty good. It was very painful leaving, and it will be if I have to leave again, but I also feel fundamentally OK with leaving - I know I've given it a very good try.

But right now I will assume the best, help her where I can, maintain my own life and sanity, keep improving my validation, and wait... .

You can leave.

You can enforce boundaries against verbal / emotional abuse (or physical abuse; I forget if you experienced that too)

In all cases, your wife won't like it, will fight it / resist it / etc.

However ... .in the end, whether she admits it or not, she will respect you more if you stand up for your values and enforce boundaries than if you are a doormat. (And after she gets accustomed to it, you might possibly hear this from her... .I did eventually from my wife)

Hi Williamskevin,  it sounds as if you are making the decision based on what you think/feel is best.  Congratulations on using Wisemind and combining those two sides.

In my experience, and what I have found, is that no matter if your S/O is perfect, or less than perfect, your responses and boundaries can change the relationship.  The goal is to live the life you should be living and that is not up to our spouses/S/O, but lies within us.  Once you know that, you cannot unknow it.

Deciding what you want and taking steps in that direction will be a relief.  When one partner stops dancing to the tune then things change.

Peace to you

Mustbeabetterway

If you base the criteria for change in your marriage on your wife changing, then you may be setting yourself up for more of the same thing that you have.

She is expressing a desire to change. I do not doubt that she is sincere in her wishes, but then, there is work to do. However, promises like this when made without new relationship skills are hard to implement. Also, the wishes were made with strong desire to have you back. Now, that you are back, that motivation may be less, even though she wants this to happen. If you are the one wanting change- you have motivation, then let that drive you to improve the relationship by doing your part in it- with you.

Beware of "reasons". There are "reasons" when people tend to project- the medication, the doctor, the dog threw up, the neighbor. Yes, she may do better with another doctor, medical plan, but focusing on something external without the focus on personal work may not address the relationship issues.

If you want change, it has to be you implementing change in you. Appeasement, co-dependency, being reactive, poor self esteem, FOO and more. With or without her. The payoff for the work on yourself  is yours.

Well said, Notwendy.  Totally agree.

Talk is cheap; so are promises.  Now that she has you back, as Notwendy notes, she may lack impetus.  Lasting change is up to you.

I suggest setting an internal time limit, just for yourself, at which point you will re-evaluate.

LuckyJim

One suggestion is to maintain boundaries. All relationships tend to be in a sort of balance, and with dysfunction it is a balance between dysfunction in both partners. Pw BPD traits  tend to be in balance with people with co dependent traits. Often it seems that the co-dependent partner is the one showing the more distress over time with the behaviors of the pw  BPD. The co-dependent person can seem puzzled that they are so caring a giving, and the pw BPD's poor behaviors continue. What is harder for that partner to see is their own enabling behavior.

When one person changes the steps of this "dance", the response of the other partner is to try to re-establish that balance, which even if there were problems, did exist as a means of comfort and habit. Your leaving no doubt shook up your wife, and you. This is natural, but at this very moment, neither of you have learned a new way to interact. What you have now is exactly the relationship you left.

Your wife not only wants you back, she wants the comfortable, familiar you back. However, if you wish to change the relationship dynamics, you need to not be doing all the same things that got you to the point of leaving. If you do, then the more likely course is for the two of you to do what you have already been doing. It is great that she wants to change and she may be able to do so for a while with the skills she has, but real change takes time to maintain. It isn't always linear. The two of you can backslide. I think guidance from a T is helpful in holding both of you accountable. But you should also see a change over time, especially if you are working on you, and keeping the focus on you. If you are different, the dynamics will likely be.

When I read about couples "recycling", I didn't quite understand it because I personally have not recycled with a partner in the sense of leave/get back together. But I understand it from my interactions with BPD mom. She would recognize when she had pushed me too far. Then, "good mother" would appear with promises that things would be better. Her idealized self- her better self- wants to be a good mother, and wants to have that nice mother daughter relationship that her elderly friends have. So she will call me --- in that voice- that somewhat mesmerizing voice that speaks the words of her ideal self- and it is so easy to buy into it because it is all that I wanted as a kid- this mommy. And it is so easy to discount the fact that in reality, she has been emotionally abusive because she is who she is. She may want to change, but it takes work. She had no incentive to treat me differently until I implemented boundaries. One was that if I was visiting and she started being verbally abusive, I would walk out the door. I don't threaten to leave. In fact, I choose not to cut off the relationship. But she has learned from me that she does not get to verbally abuse me and she does not do it now. I see where my mother can change, and she did, but only when I changed by establishing boundaries, otherwise she would not feel a need to change.

Your wife knows you can leave and she may fear that. She may hold it together out of fear, but then, if the fear dissipates, so does the motivation. Your boundaries are the better long term "teachers" of what you will not tolerate.

OK - I agree with all this. I have made many changes within me over the last few years, and I'm sure my losing co-dependency has pushed her away and made her feel unsettled.

My position at the moment is "I do not want to live my life without you. I am going to socialise and enjoy life. I need you to be a part of that. And if we can't work out how to make that happen - then I can't live with you."

I have tried in the past to help her make life happen. Different events, different situations (out/in), timings, people, everything. Nothing has helped. She has told me that lack if trust in ME makes her more edgy and less willing, and she has suggested some things I can do to help her feel at ease. I am happy to do those (even though i don't beleive they will help). But i have now put this back on her... .

My belief is that her current psych is not helping her, and a new one would do better. But I don't really have much to base that on, so i am going to drop that idea/requirement.

I told her last night that i would do those things, but SHE needs to work out how to be OK with going out with me. I said i understand it'll take time, and am willing to work with her (small steps) to make it happen. But I have NO more suggestions. I will now SUPPORT her, but I will not LEAD.

My other plan (which i admit is leading... .) is to work through "the high conflict couple" with her - reading and agreeing on which chapters to focus our behaviour changes on.

Good reply; I enjoyed it.

(https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/Smileys/default/1-staff.gif)

This thread has reached its posting limit. Please feel free to start a new topic to continue the discussion.