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I know this topic sounds disturbing.

First let me say why my stepson is a factor. He disturbs our privacy. My wife lets him disturb our privacy. The thought of him in her mind disturbs opportunities that we could possibly have together.

My wife’s son is 31 years old. I have explained this in some other posts but will give a brief background again. He suffered a stroke when he was 19 and 4 years ago developed paranoid schizophrenia. He lives with us. He can do a lot of things. He has limited use of his right arm.

Trying to convey this here gets a little complicated for me but here goes. This will have to be a main issue in MC. I will try to keep this as cohesive as I can.

I apologize if this is TMI but I need to explain…

I have had not had sex with my wife in 3 years but as of the past few weeks my wife has let me feel her breasts and she has given me some hand jobs. That is some progress. I am not allowed to touch her vagina area and she will not take her clothes off.  Out of the four times these times have occurred she took her shirt off once completely.

Before the trigger 3 years ago that began the decent into a sexless marriage we were having sex on an average of 4 times a week. Many of the times she would prompt the sex others I would. She would kiss me with passion, she would be totally into me and me into her. We would tell each other we loved each other. She would not always orgasm because of the effects of the antidepressants. Sometimes she would orgasm with me inside of her but usually I had to use my fingers because it would take her a long time to achieve an orgasm. EVERY time regardless she would always ask me in a sweet way, was that a good cum? She seemed to care how I felt and she would then always ask me what was the best part of it? What did you like the best? It was all in my mind playful talk afterward and I always loved to tell her. This woman seemed to understand me. The frequency of sex was great because it helped me last longer. I have a sensitivity issue. I don’t think it was PE. So her wanting to have sex more often helped me to sustain longer.

I will explain what the trigger was if anyone wants to know.

I painted that picture to say this. When these activities were going on in the evening usually past 9 or 10 at night, probably later than that most of the time, we would just shut and lock the bedroom door.  Sometimes her son would come up and knock on the door and we would say something to get him to go away. It was a little hampering back then. It did not totally inhibit her though.

The way it is now if her son is still awake which he usually stays up all night long she will not want to do anything, or she will want to rush through it. She will not take her shirt off.  We closed the door and locked it but she still would not remove her shirt and she said he was the reason. She said I don’t want him to even think we are doing anything.

Aside from my wife having issues with sex she is also dealing with the enmeshed feeling she has about her son. He is a grown man. When our sex life was fully active my middle daughter was still living at the house and her bedroom was right next to ours and my wife had no issues having sex with me then. We were not banging on the wall or being inappropriate.

I am throwing things out here. Last week my wife stood at the top of the steps and said to her son Good nite darlin’ I Love you! With such love and tenderness in her voice. The problem I have with that is that I don’t get that from her BUT it’s what I used to get from her. We would would flirt with each other throughout the day and talk like we were lovers. It was hey baby would you mind picking up such and such from the store. I would get a text with bold letters stating I LOVE YOU!.  That does not happen anymore.

We are sitting in the living room and she says to him “johnny you know you are the love of my life” right in front of me. She doesn’t say that to me.

I need to find a way to discuss this serious issue with my wife and also discuss it in MC. 

You've drawn a clear picture of what your sex life was like then vs. now, but not what caused the change. You said there was a trigger three years ago. What was it? Do you know or just suspect? Was the change sudden or gradual? What else might have been going on in your lives during that period?

Hi Flourdust,

10 years ago I used to go get my hair cut at a family hair place and a woman started cutting my hair and I had a crush on her. Never met with her never said anything out of the way but I felt guilty about anyway my wife at the time was ignoring me emotionally and this person was a nice person to talk to. When my first wife left me I sent her an email telling her I was attracted to so and so.

In the transition period from when my first wife left me and my wife now came on the scene, we were just dating she got into my emails and I never trashed that email. When she read it she looked at me as someone unfaithful she didn't make a huge deal at the time out of it but somewhat. Then go 2 years ahead of when she saw the email. She asked me about the woman again and asked me did you ever picture yourself having sex with her?  For some reason I said yes. I guess looking back if I would have said no she would have not believed me anyway. Maybe I thought about her sexually I don't really remember, did I visualize having sex with the woman? I may have I don't remember. That was it though from that point on I was a cheater who could not be trusted. She is "over" it now but I am now in the devalued stage compared to what I was before that.

that was the dumbest yes answer I ever gave in my life... .but really it would have been something else if it wasn't that

am I drawing a clear picture of the affect my wife's son has on her and how it affects us?

just looked up this definition. this is what is going on between my wife and her son.

Enmeshment is a description of a relationship between two or more people in which personal boundaries are permeable and unclear. This often happens on an emotional level in which two people “feel” each other's emotions, or when one person becomes emotionally escalated and the other family member does as well.

If he is depressed she is depressed, if he doesn't want to do anything she doesn't want to do anything, the list can go on and on.

If imagining having sex with someone was an unforgivable sin- worthy of punishment from a spouse for the rest of ones days, then Hell would be so crowded there'd hardly be anyone left on Earth.

IMHO - we humans are hard wired for attraction. What makes us committed to our spouses is our boundaries- we make a point to not act on it- and to not put ourselves in compromised situations.

I don't know what your wife thinks but perhaps forgiving yourself for your very human feeling that you did not act on is a place to start for you to let go of feeling bad about that.

When my H and I are watching TV and a Victoria Secret commercial is on, I think I know what he is thinking ( and I have thought the same about some actors). This is being human . Amoral is taking action on these feelings. You didn't. You can let it go.

this caused her to detach from me so what she did over the course of three years she built a defense mechanism that "kept" her from being hurt from my possible thought life.

Also the fact that her son has not gotten better she went further in the hole with that in regards to feeling hopeless. When he was first diagnosed with SZ she was optimistic about a recovery but as 4 1/2 years have passed she has let that effect her because she can't make his getting better happen.

byfaith,

The way your wife is relating to her adult son is disturbing. My mother did the same with her sons. I've since read about covert incest and that sums it up. It really damaged my brothers. Regardless of his schizophrenia, it isn't good for him to have his mother treat him like a lover, or to allow him to interfere with her relationship and own sexual needs.

I think there are two different things you need to separate out:

1) Your wife's inappropriate relationship with her adult son.

2) The lack of sex in your relationship.

I know they seem entwined, and they are somewhat, but it may be your wife is using her adult son as an excuse not to be intimate, just as she used her jealousy.

this caused her to detach from me so what she did over the course of three years she built a defense mechanism that "kept" her from being hurt from my possible thought life.


You don't need to buy into the idea that she is a victim of your thoughts. She can choose to think this, and it is very sad that she does, but this has set her up to make you pay the price for her pain. What I meant in my last post is that, you have not done anything wrong. You had a crush on someone. Many people have had crushes. It isn't a crime and certainly not deserving of celibacy for the rest of your life.

You can not force her to have sex with you, but neither can she force you to be celibate. This doesn't mean that you cheat, but you can establish this boundary for yourself: I do not wish to be celibate in a marriage or possibly that you do not want to continue to be in a sexless marriage. At the moment, she gets to have it her way- married, no sex. I think it is reasonable that sometimes sex isn't possible in a marriage for momentary reasons- maybe someone is ill, or the couple is not together ( one is deported in armed services) but in general , one person should not subject the other to indefinite celibacy and expect that person to be OK with it.

This is something to bring up in MC, but also in order for you to be clear about your wishes, you need to not buy into being at fault for your thoughts. She has made more of them than they were.

This boundary may put your marriage on the line, but I don't think you would be alone in this situation. It is reasonable to not want a sexless marriage.

First, has she actually said this.  That she is defending against your thoughts.  My wife has said this, in and out of counseling over the years.  But, I want clarity from you if this is your interpretation or if she has actually said this.


I think this is great topic for MC, however, I would not "push it" early.  How many sessions so far?  Is this first ever MC experience? 

I also think it best to stay focused on theory for a bit.  She is defending against thoughts is "theory".  The application is that she doesn't have sex with me because of theory.  I am sure that the theory is applied to you in other ways as well.  If you can solve theory, than many issues will likely resolve. 

If you solve sex (yes you would be happier), but the theory of defending against thoughts would be applied in other ways "against" you.

Hey, |iiii   I am seeing progress here.  Since we are being clear here in this thread, boobs and handjobs is progress.  I get it you don't think this is solved. 

Can you put your hope in progress?  Are you able to have fun playing with her boobs and getting a handjob?   Where I am going is, is it an "act of service" she is doing or a genuinely fun activity that she would like to repeat? 

Dude, 3 years, that's a long time.  Boobs and handjobs are back.  Focus on progress.

Where does she like to be kissed?  Neck, back of neck, boobs? 

OK, for all the women that no longer want a piece of FF out there over the lightsaber noise thing, I'm probably going to loose the rest here

Byfaith,

Do you like to fish?  Sometimes it takes a while to get a nibble, even longer to get a bite and reel in a fish.  Fishing takes patience.

Dude, you obviously have patience.  I'm hoping you can channel that patience.  Next time you get her shirt off, kiss/nibble where she likes it (I'm guessing she is against deep mouth to mouth kissing), then use that patience and keep touching, kissing and breathing on areas that she likes. 

You are fishing, don't jump on the first couple nibbles, channel the patience.  Set the hook when she takes a big bite.

FF

no not those words verbatim let me gather a response to your question

Ok yes there is some progress... .It may be an act of service I have to see where things go and how they progress.

What is your opinion on the deal with her son? If you have one? I don't feel I am being over sensitive with this issue. I have been reading now a little on this covert incest thing. Quite possibly the case

I will respond more in detail later at work right now. I have a lot of details I need to lay out there

 

Boundaries will protect you and your r/s from the son.  You will have to be strong to do this.

You have a right to private time with your wife.  If your wife doesn't agree to this, I put this in the same category as your wife saying no to sex.  The r/s is done.  Note:  She needs time in MC to process this, but before you start down that road, you need to be clear about non-negotiables.

Tell me about your house.  Can you add a door to the bottom of the stairs?

I'm seeing two locked doors, distance and some sexy music being the key here.  Having a 30 some year old guy knocking on the door during sex is no good.  He can't help it, that doesn't mean you should let him.

Please don't present any of this as "my way or highway", but you also need to be clear in your own mind.

Listen:  It's one thing to have a 5 year old knocking on the door looking for Mommy.  We've got 8 kids, we have handled this kind of thing before, not a big deal.  Plus, we've had "real emergencies" before and had to stop sex, go handle stuff and it is what it is. 

You have an adult in the house that can't act like one.  Up to you to erect boundaries.

FF

By Faith,

What is going on with her son isn't normal (IMHO) but I think it can be looked at as a separate issue. It can be part of what is going on with you and your wife as far as intimacy, but my own thoughts are that putting the focus on that could just turn this into a complicated ( see TRIANGLE ) mess.

Your wife is who she is, the son is a separate person. You have no real control over their behavior. I think FF makes some good points but the difference is that the son is not a 5 year old ( he may be one emotionally) and he is not yours to raise/discipline. One can control a 5 year old to some extent- send them to their rooms, time out, but a grown man with a disability and mental illness is a different thing.

I do agree with FF on boundaries. Yours. You can be clear about what you want: a marriage with intimacy, time alone with your wife. If she has problems with this, then that is something between the two of you. Bringing the issues with the son in to this is taking the focus off you, your boundaries, your wishes.

I have decided that the issue with intimacy ( sexual and non sexual) and setting boundaries concerning her son have to be, at least for me, the beginning main issues that are addressed in MC.

My wife has been out of town, her mom is in the hospital. It has given me time to think about things. I have been thinking about the advice here.

FF the shut doors and locked doors have been discussed before. There used to be a door at the top of the steps years ago and I removed it for remodeling reasons (during my first marriage). I brought up putting one back on and that was shot down. My wife's response was that she did not want to make him feel closed off.

Have you ever seen a kid behave when their parent isn't around? and then when the mommy shows up the kid acts like a total sh$$Azz.

That's what it is like. Last week I was at the house with him for a few days just him and me. At night I closed my bedroom door. For the most part he respected that. One time he opened it with knocking and I kind of showed a quite sign of disapproval. Quietly he closed the door and then knocked on it.

My wife came home on Saturday and that night he walked in and out like nothing. We had the door cracked about 2 inches and he just opens the door and walks right in.

I didn't make an issue of it. I am going to calmly discuss this problem. My wife had to go back to her mothers on Sunday and she is still gone.

to be honest, and I am not trying to be negative, I am just being realistic. This boundary setting with her son is going to push our relationship to the brink. Guess I just better buckle up. I hope I'm wrong. 

A little later I will address some more of your thoughts and also Notwendys. At work, so I am just responding some here some there.

I want to give an explanation concerning the whole her being a victim of my thoughts... .

meant to say he opened it without knocking the first time

Think about this for a bit.

You are handing way to much control to your wife.

Put the door back up and make sure locks work.

That way you both have choices.  When your wife is around and she wants zero boundaries, she can open the door, she can open both doors if she wants.  That is her choice,

When you are around you can shut and lock both doors.  You have your choice.

Each of you gets to respect the others choices for yourselves.

When you are both upstairs it will require some sort of negotiation/compromise.  My suggestion is that you offer to allow her to have doors the way she wants 4 nights per week, even offer her the ability to pick those nights. 

You get to lock both doors on the other nights, turn on the disco light ball, take the stripper pole out of the closet, get a bag of popcorn and watch the show,    Yeah, I get it, probably will be a while before she does that for you,

But, you get the concept.  Also you demonstrate respect and deference to your wife by putting yourself at a disadvantage, she picks more nights.

If she demands all nights, I would not challenge her.  Ask MC for help understanding how all nights is compromise.  Let him do his job.

Your job is to unapologetically erect and hold your boundaries, both doors up and locked when you are there.

FF

Just remembered another big point.

Think about presenting your concerns so that your wife is "not wrong", it's just that you don't agree and you are looking for a compromise that you both can live with.

How can you "get on your wife's team"?

How can you say things without your wife hearing "you are a bad mother and wife".  Note, don't take this too far, she is disordered and will twist things.  Still you should think about how you say these things.

FF

Byfaith, I may be wrong, but I'm getting the impression that you are one of those very caring guys who seeks agreement and cooperation in your relationship. That's a great strategy for a partner who is healthy, but certainly can go awry with a pwBPD.

I used to involve my husband in lots of details about things, like getting the tree trimmers out for the yearly service. (We've got several acres and lots of trees.) Inevitably, it would lead to ugliness because he would stress about the money (even though he is wealthy).

Now I just do it and tell him about it shortly before it happens. It still elicits ugly looks, but it doesn't become a drama.

You could just install the doors and locks (as a home improvement project) and not ask her for input. What I do when I make these unilateral decisions, is then I act like, "Isn't this great, Honey?" Then the response is on his side and I don't get drawn into his drama.

you are very right |iiii


I have been thinking along these lines for a long time now. I was mulling over in my mind the other night how to be able to disagree with her, stand my ground but yet she not take 100 steps back from me. Detach from me and tell me she will never be able to trust me ever.

Ok the door thing. FF I understand where you and cat are coming from. My house situation does not lend itself to doing the, putting up another door at the top of the steps, because of my D23 living downstairs also.  I want to work on an agreement with my wife concerning our bedroom door and when her son is allowed to walk in and when he is not. When we will shut the door and lock it. When we will answer a knock on a shut door and when we will not.

Ok this my not be relevant

but some texting between my me and my wife friday night. I was with my stepson by myself, she was out of town.

He wanted to watch a movie on the roku box

her: what are you all doing?

me: watching "the revenant" I rented it on the roku box.

her: are you watching it in our room   ( which means are you both laying on the bed watching it. I had to move the box out into the den)

me: no we are watching it in the den.

her: homophobic

I did not respond

her: tell johnny not to listen to the F words  ( remember he is 31 years old)

I know this has nothing to do with putting up a door but this is the relationship I am dealing with

good movie BTW

I want to work on an agreement... .I should have said work on a compromise

While I think the son is an issue, I still think framing the boundary in terms of you rather than focusing on him will help avoid the drama triangle.

What are your wishes/needs?

Some of them are- an intimate marriage, privacy with spouse.

Is he able to be left unattended? It is hard for your wife to not be concerned with him when he is there with her. I don't know what is available near you, but some places may have respite services, where families can leave a family member in someone else's care to get a break, adult day resources- anything where it can be the two of you. I am sure then you could arrange some time alone or at the Holiday Inn, as a way to be alone with your wife.

As to the homophobe comment - that is in the pink elephant category ( about as crazy as calling you a pink elephant.). I am glad you didn't respond or JADE, that would just be fuel to the craziness.

F- word? This is the son who watches porn and she is concerned with the F-word? Ignore that too.

Sometimes I think of snarky responses, which you should not say, but humor helps me from being upset sometimes.

Homophobe? Well we are on the couch because my boyfriend is watching the movie with me.   So the bed was a bit small for the three of us.

Really, her comment is so out of line, it isn't worth reacting to or remembering.

Hi byfaith.  I do not normally post on this board but I do read here often.  I am responding here because of what you have shared about your wife's behavior towards her son.  That is classic enmeshment, emotional incest, covert incest, whatever term you choose to apply.  I went back and read through a few of your posts and stopped reading when you shared that back in February your wife would lie on the bed watching TV while running her leg up and down your stepson's all the way up close to his crotch.  Inappropriate is not a strong enough word.  Her behavior is highly disturbing and indicates a pretty bad situation for all of you.  She is engaging in covert sexual abuse. 


I agree.  While people here have posted that the issues are separate, I think they are more intertwined than people here realize and would advise you to discuss this with a therapist (either the MC if you can talk to them alone or a therapist of your own). 


Given that you want this relationship to work out, I hope you are wrong too.  The problem is, while your boundaries and gut instincts are right on, your wife's are not.  By all means, establish boundaries re: your step son walking into your room.  The rest of it (your wife's sexualized behavior with her son), the bigger picture IMO, I am not sure how to address other than to strongly suggest that you seek professional help before addressing it with your wife. 

Harri,

I did address with her some of her behavior with her son as inappropiate, especially the playing footsie with his leg. ( of course she was offended) That has not happened since BUT about a week ago we had some intimate time together. Afterward we unlocked and halfway opened the bedroom door. He walked in an basically stood over her beside the bed like he wanted to tell her something what my wife does is pat him on the stomach, it makes me feel so strange. I dont think she said anything inappropriate. To me it would have been different if she would have reached up and patted him on the side of the arm or something. It felt weird enough to me to have a grown man standing by my bed almost right after my wife and I had psuedo sex.

I just wanted to clarify that I done think the behavior with the son is insignificant- and it is related. My point in focusing on ByFaith's wishes and boundaries in relationship to his wife is because I felt it was a more effective focus to start the discussion with his wife. Bringing up the son first might put him in persecutor mode, wife may jump in to rescue son.

I don't think the interaction between the wife and son is appropriate at all. One boundary may be to refuse to enable it by tolerating it- to say this does not go on in his house. I am not sure the best way to enforce that.

Hi again byfaith.  That took a lot of courage to say something to your wife and even though she was offended, you did the right thing by listening to your gut and following it.  Do you have your own therapist to talk with about this?  We can help here, but I think the help is limited in this case and, given the nature of the boards, I think the input can often be biased. 

Talking about bias, I will tell you that I am an adult child of a uBPD mother and a Non/?PD father and my mother engaged in the very same behaviors with both me and my brother.  In my case there was also overt sexual abuse (possibly with my brother as well, tho I have no specific info about that).  The thing is, the sexual abuse, both covert and overt, continued until I was in my 30's before I was able to stop it for good.  My brother never did end the enmeshment with my mother, even after he was married with a child on the way.  He was/is horribly enmeshed (and my mother died back in 2007) and just last month he denied to me that he was ever treated poorly growing up, never mind "abused".  Enmeshment, poor boundaries, emotional incest, covert incest... .it is all the same and I think, rampant in families with a BPD parent.  Maybe not as obvious as what happened in my family (though having grown up in it we knew nothing different) and what is going on with your wife and stepson, but there are varying degrees and I think it happens way more often than is recognized on sites like this. 

I shared that about my own experience and what went on in my family because I think it is important to realize that this situation has more to do with your wife's disorder than anything to do with your stepsons conditions.  You would never know anything was wrong just by looking at or talking to my brother and I.  We both went to post-graduate school, great careers, fully independent, we were seen as normal and even spoiled by our friends etc.  There are thousands of "children of BPD/PD parents out there who experienced the same. 

Does your stepson have any cognitive issues related to his illnesses?  Would he be more responsive to gentle information about appropriate behavior?  I just wonder if he would be an easier nut to crack (said by a self-identified nut here!) in terms of boundary setting? 


That is your gut talking and it is right on target here. 

Has your stepson ever had the opportunity to live independently?  Have steps been taken to ensure his care (if needed) after his mother is no longer able to care for him? 

Notwendy, thanks for clarifying that.   

My mother with BPD has poor boundaries and we kids were subjected to TMI growing up, but thank goodness not as much involvement as this. Also, while young boys want to cuddle with their mother, like kids do, by the time they are teens, if they have good boundaries, they would be creeped out by this kind of interaction with their mother, and walk away from it.

The challenge here is that, this is a grown, but mentally disabled man. The combination of both their disabilities makes this difficult. I would think he is capable of learning boundaries, but his mother is the one who would need to enforce them.

But in these relationships, we can encounter some challenging behaviors on the part of the spouse. Some of them have included possible emotional harm to children, substance abuse, excessive spending, infidelity. The bottom line is that it is difficult to control the choices/behaviors of another person. The challenge for their partner is often poor boundaries, co-dependency, and enabling behaviors.

If a partner wants change, that change starts with them- their own behaviors and boundaries.

Also, the age of the son makes this difficult to know how/what to report. If he were underage, one could call child protective services for this kind of behavior. That is one possible boundary for not tolerating it. Being he is an adult, legally, I don't know what kind of protection he has. It isn't legal to abuse the disabled. I don't know if he is able to give consent. Sexual abuse could be reported, but I am not sure of how to proceed with this in this situation.

wow this is more than I thought... .I was thinking about anything that has made me feel uncomfortable. There are times where she has tried to encourage me to tickle him. This is in our room. It made me feel real weird. That hasn't happened for a while maybe for a couple of months or so. I have made it clear I don't tickle 30 year old men, even if it was my own son.

this discussion has made me look back on even my moms behavior with me over the years.


not to get into this too far here, right now, my mom talked to me in detail about how my father abused her. Up until I was 20 or 21 it was always how he beat her, but then it was how he sexually abused her. The one incident involved was where she told me how he stuck his fist up her vagina. That was major TMI. She told me how she was raped by someone. looking back I felt like I was a sounding board for all the resentment she had toward my father for all the things he did. With even her second husband she talked way to much about their disputes and all the issues she had with him. So through the years I was an emotional sounding board for my mother

I have to leave off here for a while... .at work, but I will be back to address some more issues with my wife and explain some things (give some background)

Just wanted to share that yes, I absolutely relate to feeling weirded out by my SO. (Now ex)

His moods changed with hers, he seemed destroyed emotionally if she was not happy and always tried to fix her feelings until she was happy or at least acting happy.  (He didn't notice her acting) She was a source of his narc supply.

In MC, he was told to spend date nights with me.  He expressed great guilt over leaving her. (D13, dates lasted an hour and a half) MC explained that SHE needed to see two adults leave for dates as a healthy role model of relationships.  Uh... .so seriously... .the only reason he could spend time with me out on a date was actually FOR his daughter!

This enmeshment disgusted me.

This is an issue, your wife is not going to solve it.  My advice, many times, tends to be practical and to help you organize your thoughts.

Realize that once you open the door its' "game on" for dysfunction.  It will happen.  If you don't like it (think boundaries here) take your eyes somewhere else.

If you are not in a place to "deal with" the dysfunction, keep the door locked.

Your wife can choose to behave as she sees fit with her son, tickling, patting

You can choose to watch that or not.

Make your choices and values clear and then live your choices.

Let her clarify her choices and then respect them. 

Note:  I completely agree with you, that's weird.  Please put on a different "lens", it seems to me you view this through the lens that you would use for two normal, healthy adults, and yes, with that lens on it is really weird, bad weird.

Switch lenses, this is how two mentally ill people relate to each other.  Perhaps modifying your behavior will help them modify theirs, perhaps you modify your behavior and they continue in theirs. 

You have protected yourself from the objectionable parts of this by taking action that YOU can take.

FF

PS, can you circle back and explain in more detail why you can't put up a second door?  Something about a daughter living downstairs too.

Switch lenses, this is how two mentally ill people relate to each other. 

Yes it is, but you are married to a woman who is acting sexual with her son and not with you. And all three of you are living in a house with no doors or reasonable boundaries between your intimate lives.

I think it is great to look at the influence of your FOO as the lack of boundaries there may have set you up to accept a lack of boundaries now.

If you want boundaries, they start with you. But they are not boundaries that you enforce on someone else. Boundaries are internal. They are a reflection of our own values. A boundary is the part that makes you think eeeew at what your wife is doing with her son and how you respond to this with your own behavior.

just some other things popping into my head... .all of these things she does there has never been a tone of sensuality. If that makes sense. OK for instance she has this thing where she can remove her bra underneath her shirt without lifting her shirt up. She will do this right in front of he son not on a regular basis but she does it. She just thinks its funny. She will sometimes say hey remember Johnny when I used to come home from work and do this and then flick the bra off the end of my foot across the room?

I also think it is inappropriate for a woman to walk around in certain company without a bra on. When her son is around it's hit or miss. If her nips are sticking up I hint to go put a bra on.

When I have talked to her about the inappropriate touching ( she even at times will goose his butt cheek and make a noise) Her defense is that her son does not get touched enough. I don't say anything about her hugging, hugging is normal. But I have seen abnormal hugs. It's like a lover grabbing someone around the neck and gazing lovingly into their eyes.

I am in no way justifying what she does... .but she and her son have been together all of his life. I think the fact that she wanted to be protected as a child and never got that she goes overboard with him. He has been a constant in her life ( I know she wishes he had his own life with someone to love) but she tries in a way to make up for that and crosses boundaries and maybe does not realize it? Maybe she does I don't know? When he had his stroke it made her feel even more emotionally tied to him and then the SZ hit and she sees him in a lonely state of mind and it just destroys her

Again not justifying it just trying to explain in some way where it all stems from   

there has never been a tone of sensuality (in her voice) I don't think my wife has ever thought about having sex with her son? I would hope not. She has spoken to me of how disgusted she felt when there were incest overtones from her brothers and dad when she was young and even into her 40's with her brothers.

I don't know if she had thoughts of sex with your son, but violating his sexual boundaries with inappropriate touch and showing him her bra is sexually arousing and so it is violating. Considering he is a sexually mature male with little hope of having a sexual partner, this might be very arousing to him.

If you want a frame of reference, I have teens. I do not walk around without a bra in front of a teen age boy ( mine or a friend) . If I am in my pj's I will put a light jacket on. For the record what I mean by Pj's is flannel sweat pants as well. Basically, nothing shows as if I was fully dressed.

Also a male teen doesn't want to see mom's intimate garments.

Why do I keep this boundary? Do I care if someone sees me without a bra? Not as much as I care about my kids' boundaries. At their age, they are developing boundaries, and I want them to have strong ones. I am role modeling boundaries for them. That is much more important at this point. I am also role modeling that only my H is going to see these things -as should be in a marriage. So, for me this means no skimpy clothing in public- not in front of my kids or anyone else.

And I respect theirs. There comes a point where an adolescent.  wants to locks their door, cover up in front of a parent, not snuggle with mom anymore. Just as my body is off limits to others besides my H, their bodies are off limits to others as well. I don't violate that.

One can also violate with speech, TMI, asking too personal questions, inappropriate talk about sex. The kids might want to hear sexual topics in the locker room with peers but not from a mom ( beyond that facts of life talk- I mean personal topics). Ironic that your wife is concerned that Johnny might hear the F word, yet shows him her bra. He's a grown man. And you say it isn't sensual. If your wife waved her bra in front of you, would you be off to the races?

It isn't just what is seen- it is all about boundaries and there are ways to violate them besides a sexual act.

I am sorry if this comes on too strong, but this behavior is not appropriate. I don't know how effective it is to be critical to your wife, but you can set a boundary- such as I will watch TV with you in the den if you put a bra ( or some other cover on) as it makes me uncomfortable. If she chastises you, then you don't watch TV with her.

All of this input is helping me immensely to process this. This has disturbed me on so many levels for too long.

This is the first time I have discussed this with anyone with clear feedback. I had a T that I discussed this with and I did not get the direction that I have gained from just this thread.

BF

FF,

that extra door... .my D23 has her room downstairs and she comes up and down the steps into the living room and kitchen area and also the bathroom, so I can't put the door up. I mean I can but I am not willing to go at this thing from that angle putting up a second door. I am going to work on compromises on locking our bedroom door, keeping him from walking into our room at will at certain times.

tell me if I am wrong on this, but if push came to shove there is yet another room I could make my own room. I don't want it to come to that though

History: the downstairs used to be an open area den with a full bath off of it and a large storage closet. Nice stonework where I had a wood burning stove sitting. This area has a sink and a place for a medium size frig, nice cabinets and sink. A little over a year ago I built a  wall to close it off with a door, this became johnny's room. Nice area. the initial thought was after x time at night he quits coming up and down the stairs and stays down in his room. That did not work.

My wife will be back home tomorrow evening. I am going to try to come up with an "action" plan to discuss certain topics with my wife. I will share them here and see what kind of feedback I get.

We have had nice conversations on the phone this week and some nice texting back and forth, so that is good. she told me she is looking forward to getting back and going to the MC. She has been out of state , her mother was in the hospital.   

 

I'm missing something on the door.  Is it a door to a hallway to your bedroom, or would it be a door to common areas.

Likely I missed something. 

I thought there was a stairway to a hallway that led to your bedroom and that you could gain an extra 10-15 feet of "protection" to get to your bedroom door.

The last answer I got makes it seem like it is a door to a common area,


FF

 

My views on covering up are very close to notwendy. 

What you wife is doing is not good.

What I see is a lack of empathy about how the son might feel.  She is likely thinking it is loving and "funny" without any understanding of what it is like to be male.

Male see sexy stuff, male get aroused, ug ug, caveman style.  While that may sound harsh, in my experience it is very true. 

When I see a bra, my first thought is not, "ohhh, that's a nice bra, "  I immediately start thinking about the boobs that were in the bra,   Yes, I've trained myself to "not take a second look" or distract myself and not focus on it.

Now, separate issue on how to properly address it.  I think you should leave it alone for a bit, focus on communication and other stuff first.

FF

Hi byfaith.  I like Harri do not normally post on this board but I do read here.  I felt I needed to respond because my mother treated me very much the same way as you are describing here. I am sure, that like your wife, her intention was to be loving and show affection. But the lack of boundaries, physical and emotional, really screwed with my head and I am dealing with all that now, much later in life. I have learned here and with my therapist that this is emotional incest, covert incest, covert sexual abuse.

Also, I have raised teen boys. I never let them see me take my bra off, even the way you describe. I would never walk around the house without a bra on, or in a nighty or whatever around them. And I would never let them come in my room and talk to me by the bed right after sex.

Also I hugged them and touched them a lot- but never on the butt or stomach or thigh, or any way that feels intimate.

It was always more hugs with pats on the back, hair ruffling, etc.

I'm so glad you are examining this. As I mentioned earlier my mentally ill mother did this with her sons and it totally messed them up. Me, too. I remember my mother commenting to me about the size of my brother's genitalia. She would often have baths and want her sons to come talk to her while she was in the tub. Like your wife she would use a warm, sexy tone of voice with them, and touched their legs and butts. I feel sick even remembering this. It was so wrong.

Please also bear in mind that your stepson is a victim in this situation. He may be a grown man, but he has a severe mental illness and cannot advocate for himself. I am positive that her covert incest with him is connected to him walking in your room right after you've had sexual contact, and other confused, intrusive actions on his part. He is probably responding to signals he doesn't understand.

I am a mom of teenage boys and like the others it is very important that moms have healthy boundaries. I only give sideways hugs, for instance, and absolutely never let them see me inappropriately dressed or undressed. You can probably tell from my earlier post and this one that this kind of abuse strikes a nerve with me. It doesn't matter if your wife admits or knows what she is doing, the point is that she is doing it. Your stepson may need to be protected from his mother. I don't know what sort of options you have there, or if they can be forced.

Hi HurtinNW

There are things that occur that bother me.  I do need to say that my wife has never talked about his genitalia in that way. I will explain in a minute. She does not use a sexy tone of voice with him. I understand that nobody here knows my wife from Adam but I want to draw the clearest picture that I can of how my wife relates to her son.

He suffers with Paranoid SZ. He believes he is being watched 24/7 and that there cameras in the house. He will not take a shower but maybe twice a week and it does it almost in complete darkness with just a nightlight on in the bathroom. He believes "they" see him naked while he is showering. His mom tries to encourage him to take a shower and he will say things like they can see my pecker. She will just say well just let them see it then, there is nothing you can do about it. She does not say it in gross way way.

It just kind of hit me... .some people mainly men? Have no problems walking around the house in their underwear (tight whities) in front of whoever lives in the house. That is kind of like the attitude AT TIMES my wife has.  I remember as a kid and teenager I would have been mortified if my mom saw me in my underwear. Never let my kids see me in my underwear (3 girls and a boy)

I remember going out drink with my friends when I was about 17 and I came home and was down in the laundry room heaving my guts out in the utility sink. It woke my mom up so she came down and I am in my underwear. I am puking my guts out and I say something to her "don't look Im in my underwear" She got so pissed that I was worried about that. Kind of a funny story. That's how guarded I was about it, I don't know why.

don't know how I got off on all that. I have recieved a lot of good feedback including yours so thank you... I can understand why this kind of thing would strike a nerve with you

I think it is difficult for parents of mentally disabled children to transition from raising a child to raising a mature child. Normally, the child helps with some of this. Adolescents start locking their doors, spending more time with peers. They pull away from the parent, and the parent doesn't need to push.

Yes, there was a time when my little boy ran around with no clothes on and could not care less. If he walked in on me dressing, he didn't notice. Then, he is locking his door, covering up, and not daring to walk in on me dressing. So this was a coordination between the two of us- deciding it is time for different boundaries- and respecting them.

So, a man with the mind of a child may still behave like a child, even in an adult body. He may not give out the same messages, or develop  age appropriate boundaries. Add to this a disordered parent who may have grown up in an FOO with poor boundaries and who does not respect boundaries,( such as , if their child is upset about being in their underwear, I would bring them some sweat pants. ), and this becomes a disordered relationship all around.

It's about respecting the child's boundaries.  Parents probably could care less if they see the child they raised ( and diapered, and dressed at some point) in their underwear  It is the signal that he is developing appropriate boundaries that cues me to respect his need for privacy. BPD parents don't see this. Whatever they feel is fact to them, and so they would assume the child is wrong. In addition, the child pulling away, expressing his own ideas could trigger abandonment fears. A mentally disabled child may also express boundaries- but since the son is schizophrenic, his way is to say "aliens will see me". The way he expresses the boundary is distorted.

While all three of you have reasons to not have the most healthy boundaries, you are the one who is not disordered and so it is up to you to take the lead in establishing and maintaining appropriate boundaries in your home. This is also essential to the well being of your step son. He has the complication of being disordered and having a disordered parent. You could have a positive impact on him.

This includes privacy, (doors), language and dress. You can't control them, but you can take action for yourself ( putting in locks, doors, not watching TV with your wife if she isn't appropriately covered, and getting good boundaries for yourself.

The Passionate Marriage book has a lot to say about the relationship between boundaries, enmeshment, and sex. Note that it isn't directed at people with disorders, but it does address issues such as co-dependency. The term they use is differentiation.

Both you and your wife are bringing weak boundaries into the bedroom. Perhaps this is affecting her sexual response? ( and yours )- independently of the issues with her son.