BPDFamily.com

I had the blame shifted onto me, an empty "I'm sorry", being told I was 'overthinking'. What are you guys' experiences with calling out their abusive actions, or just expressing yourself in general?

I told my ex-uPBDgf that she was giving me mixed messages. We did everything couples do (except get physically intimate). Then she told me there was "no spark" 11 months in. I told her I cared about her more than I ever cared about anyone. She said "I need space. You don't even know me."

I messaged her two weeks later. She said, "do not contact me again." That was March 1st. I haven't heard from her since, other than occasional LinkedIn stalking.

Typical BPD FOG, blame, devaluation, projection, gaslighting.

I never received an "I'm sorry" unless it was followed by a "but you" and even those were few and far in between.

im a proponent of not tolerating abuse as opposed to calling someone out on it. having said that... .

BPD is often referred to as a "persecution complex". whether i was defending myself, or verbally attacking her, i was reinforcing her point of view, either about herself (that she is fundamentally "bad" or about me (that i was persecuting her). so i either received lengthy heartfelt apologies full of blaming herself, or heard about what a jerk i was.

in fairness to both of us, on occasion, we had some pretty good, adult give and take and reached reasonable conclusions. no single dynamic ruled our relationship for the entirety, but for the most part, we were in conflict.

I need to have this tattooed on my hand. This describes my situation perfectly.

thatd be a pretty lengthy tattoo and the questions would probably never cease  :)

You're absolutely right. It was either filled with self-loathing and her view of herself and how bad she was, but never saying specific reasons why she was bad, but ultimately our final conflict resulted in a ton of gas lighting and her never taking responsibility for anything. So odd how similar everyone's situations here are.


Same. "I'm sorry, but you didn't try and make things better... ." A direct quote folks lol

i think what you mean by "gas lighting" is two competing points of view. keep in mind that for a person who is so overwhelmed by their feelings, feelings tend to = fact.

its hard, really hard, but we can grow as a result of understanding (or trying to at least) our exes perspective. poor communication is at the heart of so many of our relationships.

For me the real growth is starting where I say, okay, my ex was either persecuting himself or me. And... .(drum roll please) why did I stay? Why did I keep returning?

Those are the real questions, in my mind.

Honestly, after I found out the truth there was no more self-blaming on her part, just invalidating me and what she did to me. I didn't stay after the cat was out of the bag, but I'm still interested to hear about others.

this is a good start. the thing is that our exes were frequently experiencing us as, and we were frequently in the role of, persecutor. this likely plays a role in why you stayed and kept returning. both sides frequently, alternatively, and perhaps simultaneously, view the other as persecutor and rescuer, and themselves as victim. odds are both parties shifted between all three and this is at the heart of the kind of conflict we are discussing.

PERSPECTIVES: Ongoing Relationship Conflict/ Karpman Drama Triangle   (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=108440.0)

full article here: https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

It didn't matter what I said, the issue in itself couldn't be discussed. I said "Please stop doing this and that". She said "Are you telling me what to do?". I said "Please stop hurting me". She said "Am you saying I'm a horrible person?".

I wanted to discuss the actions, but ended up having my motives questioned.

But then again my ex wife took all criticism personally. It takes some maturity to keep focus on the actions one is being criticized for. I'm not there yet, and my ex wife has not even begun that journey.

I am physically fresh out - 2 days. But I have been mentally out for several months. It took me months to gather evidence and plan my escape.  All he said was 'the last few days were OK, why did you leave'!  Forget the last 10 years of physical and mental abuse of me and our children!  He can have his reality. I must let it go for my healing.  Forgive, but don't forget so it never happens again.   I hope to be as NC as I can be with children.

Same situation here as most, worst part is he abhors how his grandpa beat and abused his mother... .Funny thing is he is verbally and emotionally abusive to me. Since DBT it has reduced, we had a counselor who wasn't familiar with BPD who made my marriage hell.

But when he lashed out now, or gets testy with me, I used to call him on it and yes it was empty apologies, with the but you... .Or you made me... .Or the way you said... .Empty apologies and never any change.

Then there is the other reaction; where he freaks out and starts crying and will say things like "you're right. I'm stupid. I'm retarded. I'm always wrong. It's all my fault." Again it's like no actual belief behind the words. It's as if he is repeating what he believes I say or feel about him. I have to say after, I've never called you retarded. You are not stupid.

Lately when he gets grumpy I let it go until it starts going for too long or getting snapped at a few times in a short period... .I then will just calmly look him in the eye and say "can you be kind to me please." Or "can you treat me like your wife as if you love me."

He just looks and me and doesn't say anything. It stops the mistreatment as if he becomes bewildered. It doesn't super last, but it does keep him quiet and maybe mindful of how he is acting. Not too sure tho, just stared this a few weeks ago.

Good luck to you. I was in this situation too and staying as NC as possible has worked wonders. Once removed from me my exwife became a more responsible parent, but only if I left her to her own devices.

I was also mentally prepared to leave when she eventually left me. It dawned on me that we didn't have history together and that made me sad and disillusioned. As you say, they have a few good days and they think all is forgotten and forgiven. We all benefit from living a bit more in the present, but pwBPD live only in the present and that becomes destructive.

Good luck with your new life! :)

Mine said he didn't realize he was abusive... .Usually called me abusive.

Whenever I called her out on her behavior ... .things got worse, one way or another. I suspect that it was largely dependent on her state of mind in those particular moments (feelings = facts). If she was already angered-up I got blame-shifting, rants about why her abuse was justified, or just generalized avoidance of the topic (usually in favor of talking about MY behaviors). If she was in a decent mood I'd sometimes get a light apology or acknowledgement, but then she'd change the subject - or somehow I'd end up being the trouble-maker by mentioning it. If she was feeling self-critical already I'd get a bunch of victim behavior like "it's fine, I'll be the quitter/jerk/bad person if that's what makes you happy, I don't care, I'm a bad person, woe is me, I'm so sad about my life and I'm going to die alone... .etc."

The bottom line is that she did everything humanly possible to avoid any true adult accountability towards me for her words/actions - and that, in fact, IS an abusive behavior.

 When did you date my wife?

This part resonates with me so much. "Or the way you said... ." Is so true. Focusing on tone of voice instead of what I'm saying is so odd to me, and the ultimate deflection imo.

About two years ago!  lol

Funny how so much of is like different actors reading the same script, right?

Seriously. It's simultaneously validating and horrifying.

I know. Too bad that script is a bad retelling of "Romeo And Juliet"!

The one I can say I haven't experienced from my ex was being told I was trying to control her, or telling her what to do. And lord knows there were plenty of opportunities to do so. She would always humor me by acting like she was listening to me and going to actually do what needed to be done so that we could make it work, then she would just go off and do what she wanted.

Yeah, come to think of it, I was never accused of being controlling either. I heard that I was "condescending" a lot instead, I think. I probably was condescending, admittedly, or things that I said could have been received that way. That's a tough one. What's the other option, keep our mouths shut about things that obviously could/should have been different?

radical acceptance. whether that means leaving or staying.

I remember the day very clearly when I told my ex tbat I understood the game she was playing. Her eyes went wide when I told her that the game and the dance was over. That I simply would not be playing it any more.  Ultimately she could not tolerate being married to someone she could not control.

Funny you compare it to a game, when I confronted my exBPDgf with proof about the cheating I had accused her of, her response was, and a I quote, "Game over?".

I don't think it's all a big game to them but I don't think they have a grasp of the severity of their actions or the consequences.

I think they know very clearly that they are manipulating, hurting and sucking on other people. They choose to continue doing it. It works for them and there are many payoffs for a borderline. I think that's why its hard to treat. They want that life of drama, and dysregulation.  Lots of people come to their rescue when they play victim and they generally get away with being a bully.

Yes. I think once you call them out on cheating it's the ultimate 'betrayal'. And I know they know what they're doing, my ex knew. She's been cheated on before and it wrecked her, yet that never stopped her from doing what she did. Even after all that though she still told me she 'loved' me, but will never verbally say she cheated. I know it, she knows it, but her saying it is impossible.

Mine certainly knew, she just couldn't stop. 

She'd admit to being manipulative, a bully, and to being unfair and hurtful and misjudging me. Repeatedly. I'm not sure I'll ever understand how she could know and admit to these things and then continue to do them - or, maybe more importantly, why I put it up with it (she even praised and valued me for putting up with it!). I think that I was striving for radical acceptance, as someone mentioned above, but I can't do that in our relationship if she's going to leave and stay away.

So I get to do it out of our relationship, which is honestly easier in the long run.

My ex would write fulsome apology letters, reeking of maudlin sentimentality, about how he had failed me, failed himself, shot himself in the heart, was a failure, and so forth. He never took directly responsibility for any specific behavior. In fact, if questioned about the specific rage and abuse that had led to the apology letter, he would quickly become angry again, and cite all the reasons why I "made" him angry. Or how it hadn't happened the way I said. It was totally reality bending.

He also had this obsession with "fairness." He didn't want to admit any wrongdoing unless I was admitting equal responsibility. No matter what had happened. So if he blew up over something trivial, he wanted me to take equal responsibility. I commented to him once that it was like a drug dealer bringing their own scale to the deal. That didn't make him happy, lol.

Sometimes he did seem to have insights, but now I wonder how deep they ran, since they vanished quickly.

I found it amazing that he would sit there and revile his father for being cold, imperious, scornful, abusive and the most narcissistic man on the planet... .and then repeat exactly the same behaviors. Of course, his behaviors are the result of him being "provoked."

But back to the original question: Any effort on part to name the abuse led to more abuse, even if he was in a calm place at the time. Later it would come up and feed the rage. He twisted what I said in subtle ways, such as repeating my statements in a mocking, shrewish voice, as if I sound like the worst henwife in history.

@HurtingNW


This is like an exact replica of my life  lol

And @Starla

He says the control thing to me often, so often, however always asks me to make decisions, I offer for him to lead things or decide things and he never will, than later guess who hears the control rant or how I never let him do things. It's very frustrating to say the least. 

I foolishly broke 2 months of No Contact after she was manipulating a co-worker of mine to get my attention. I railed into her, told her she has BPD and she needs serious help and leave my co-workers out of it.

She blame shifted. Accused me of being crazy and then threatened me with a restraining order if I contacted her again.

Now I'm scared to death of her. I don't need this crap in my life.

My ex never apologised for anything. Ever. However, he remembers himself apologising to me over and over again, and believes that I manipulated him into believing he did bad things he never did just to get him to say sorry. You couldn't make it up. In reality I was the one who would be compulsively apologising, in tears, admitting to and saying sorry for things I hadn't done (even thoughts he accused me of thinking) just because I wanted the vicious verbal abuse to stop. He didn't remember any of the awful stuff he said and decided I was making it up. He also told me I was the worst abuser he'd ever met in his life (almost all his previous partners are abusive, according to him). So projection is main response. He basically accused me of everything he was doing himself.

Another thing I realized over time was that every time I tried to confront my ex about his abuse it was another opportunity for him to build a case about me. Same with efforts on the part of counselors. He would obsess about the "accusation" and build up lots of evidence and arguments about how wrong it was, including details and specifics down to the day and hour.

He spent a lot of time in his own head building up evidence to defend what he had done, and efforts to confront that just added fuel to the fire. Eventually he would no longer remember doing anything wrong at all, and just focus on how I was "maligning" him.

Balletomane, I remember apologizing repeatedly to my ex for crying while he berated me. Sobbing, even, and saying sorry for being hurt. 

Yeah. I don't consider 'sorry' an apology if you keep doing it, and also if you don't explain what you're sorry for. :/

Mine hasn't contacted me since I called her out on behaviour as part of a final email. It made me laugh.

We never actually had a real conversation about feelings, emotions, whatever, in the whole year and a bit we were together, apart, then together again. Every serious conversation happened on Messenger or email, then it was never brought up in person.

She really was broken in retrospect! But I detailed her behaviour, angled it in the validation sandwich type of thing and even said that certain behaviours made her look like a massive user, but I know she can be a better person than that. So don't be that person.

What a waste of time it was crafting that email so perfectly, I haven't heard from her since :)

Mine never said sorry either, she did once and I knew it meant she was lying to me. It even sounded fake.

In one of my last conversations with my ex, I told him that when he gets emotionally overwhelmed he becomes like a kettle that's been on the boil for too long, and people around him end up getting burned by the overflow of emotion. I took care to stress that I don't think this is his fault, and that it must be frightening and difficult for him too, but it's still harmful to others. I should say here that this was one of the very rare times I was honest with him about how his behaviour was affecting me - during the relationship itself I would assume all blame for everything, no matter how ludicrous his accusations, and I would never challenge him on anything in case it made him lash out at me. This time I was very clear in what I was saying to him. He reacted with anger - "So basically you think I'm this mean person who lashes out at his friends" - and started ranting about how much I'd hurt him. "Good luck getting me to forgive you yet another time."

That was when I gave up trying to get him to understand. His history is littered with broken relationships and friends he no longer speaks to, but he couldn't see that he'd played any role in that. As far as he's concerned, he is a victim whom people single out specially for abuse (he actually said this), which explains why he has encountered so many 'abusers'. He always forgives and apologises and is unfailingly kind ("I have been nothing but kind to you", but everyone else lets him down. When I quoted his verbal abuse back to him, he said it was "tough love" and I was manipulating him into thinking it was abuse. (Examples of this so-called "tough love" include "I don't give a sh*t if you can cope or not", said after he'd just cheated on me/discarded me and I was in floods of tears, and "You're crazy and that's the only thing that stops you being completely evil".) I think he honestly perceives himself as the good guy in all of this. Heaven only knows how.

My ex wife did what every good old fashion every day abuser did, deny, lie,  don't know what your talking about, that never happened, one half hearted apology in 12 years of abusive bliss. Even lied to the forensic psychologist  who did our accessment but she couldn't fool the test.

What happened when I called him out?

"I'm sorry you feel that way."

A typical narc apology. 

What happened when I called him out again?  He turned off his phone and didn't speak to me again for six weeks.

I found out that he was seeing someone else via a one-line email. He'd said only two days earlier that he wasn't seeing anyone. (I'd suspected and asked.) Who knows how long he was intending to keep that up, but I guess the pressure of lying just built up. He was never the same person after that. Totally 180 about-face.

Don't forget the litany of everything they did for you.

Exactly.

"For twenty years I did EVERYTHING for you!"

"Umm, Honey, that's a pretty broad brush for me to respond to. Give me some examples and I'll address them"

"So you are saying I did NOTHING for you?"


Can't make this stuff up.

Oh - and to comment on much of this thread; I never got a single apology, not even an acknowledgment of hurtful behavior.  I think this ties right in to xW's hypersensitivity to any hint of perceived criticism.  An apology would admit fault, and would be as invalidating to the unstable sense of self as overt criticism.  I really think the two issues are the same.

So many times I would be reduced to pleading "Can't you just be nice?"

Always met with the spin "You be nice too".   She just couldn't accept it being about her.

Hi stolen. Thanks for your input you answered a nagging question for me. I read so much about the apologies and repenting of the abuser to change there abusive ways. I was so stumped on that bc I never heard any such promises. It was the big hang up I had that kept that spark alive in me that I must of been the problem.  I did so much work on my self, now I feel I can move on a bit more. I use to beg, I was always there for her only to be constantly  told, " your never there for me" or " you don't know how to protect me" I took great pride in being a good provider so that's where she hit me. She never asked how my day was. I asked her why and she said "  why bother, your going to tell me anyway" . As I heal I can't believe I loved this person, I shake my head and say wow thank god I'm done of her. Mean, dirty, rotten, thinking before I speak or not talking at all for fear of saying the wrong thing, reading the phone bill and raging at me for calling my family, saying I'm calling them and telling them what a terrible person she is. I was always told how horrable I treated her how no one ever treated her as bad as I did. After a while you believe those words and start re arranging everything about your self, being told you have to change,  trying to change, than being told you have to change this and that as well, I would reply give me time I can only change one thing at a time, she would say your not changing g fast enough. I was a mental mess. She would say we can't have children until you do something about your family, in the next breath she would say will you still love me if I weigh 800 lbs after I have a baby. All of which she denies ever saying. There was never enough reinforcement I could give her, never enough kind loving words. We could be snuggling and out of the blue she would say, things are not good bc we are snuggling, you didn't do anything about your family, what are you going to do about your family? Wow! Writing this and reading this opens up my eyes so much to the unbelievable insanity I lived with.

"thinking before I speak or not talking at all for fear of saying the wrong thing,"

otherwise known as walking on eggshells.

welcome to the club

Mine typically responded with some nasty comment about "blaming", or "I am sorry you feel " some way. If I persisted, he would begin ignoring, refusing to respond. If I didn't shut up at that point, he would say something nasty or link a song or video to me that was intended to be hurtful. Which it was. And if I protested that, I would get blocked all over the place, or he would begin days or weeks of silent treatment and if somewhere along the silent treatment ( days or weeks in) if I got angry at him for the ST and told him off or tried to call him, he would then block me everywhere and run a smear campaign. Pretty soon, his minions would be saying nasty stuff to me, too.

One popped up yesterday. Doesn't seem to matter how much I stay out of it and try to let the drama die down, it makes grabs for me anyway.

Were we dating the same guy?

So if I called her out on her abuse, any one of the following :-

guilt tripped (all my fault) because I was "too sensitive"

emotionally invalidated and told to "just leave" followed by the silent treatment

insulted and demeened- called schizophrenic and told my arguing with her was me being abusive.

or a break up.

But the "best" from her was one time when we had an argument, and then a couple of weeks later, when I thought it was done and dusted, she brought it up again and said to me, that she "thought she handled me well". How insulting is that.

We were only together for 4 months, but I stood my ground as much as I could. I'm sure that was why she dumped me - just too many arguments. In retrospect, I'm so glad to be out of it. No more drama and no more crisis.

Also, I've read in a couple of posts here of a so called "apology" along the lines of "I'm sorry for how you feel" - which is of course no apology at all. So an ex narc friend of mine, (not my expwBPDgf), gave me this answer when I called him out after he kept on interrupting me when I was talking. I told him that this was not an apology and that he should apologise for his actual behaviour. He did. And I have never heard from him again. HOORAY!  :)