BPDFamily.com

As of last night, it looks like divorce is in my future.  I have been married for 33.5 years but cannot live this way any longer.  

My husband refuses marriage counseling, refuses to acknowledge that he has any part in our dysfunctional marriage, and claims he does not remember events that have brought us to this point.

He suggested last night forgiveness and moving on although he has not asked for forgiveness from me.  In fact, he is now claiming he has already apologized for many things but that I wouldn't accept his apologies.  In 33.5 years I can't recall him apologizing for anything other than the statement two months ago "If I've ever done anything to make you feel this way, then I'm sorry."  Yet, he claims that the things I tell him that have happened (the stuff he says he apologized for) never even happened.  Or at least he does not remember them.


When I tried last night to tell him what I was accountable for in the marriage and what my faults and mistakes have been, he shut me down quickly saying that he did not want to hear about my mistakes. When I tried to tell him how his behavior over the years made me distance myself from him--and that doing that was a mistake on my part because it made our marriage worse--he interrupted me with "Where do you get this stuff? It sounds like you are quoting from a physchology textbook."  He hates psychologists, by the way.  He majored in psychology.  Oh the irony.

The biggest triggers for him seem to be the words "accountable" and "behavior."  He was furious that I would say he is not being accountable and furious that I would bring up his behavior.

He was also very upset when I told him that it was a mistake on my part telling our children, when they were little, to stay away from him when he was angry.  They asked me often why daddy was mad, what was wrong with daddy, why did daddy act that way.  At first, I told them daddy wasn't mad, that it was okay.  Later, as they got older, I told them it was best to stay away from him until things got better. 

My husband said to me last night, "How dare you ever tell our children to stay away from me?" He didn't seem concerned that they were coming to me asking questions about his behavior, but he was very upset at how I handled it.   


It's a sad place we are in, but I do not know what else to do.  I know that God will guide me in every baby step that I now need to begin taking.  

Your husband has a point. Triangulation and parental alienation.

In terms of his "apologies", well we all know BPD won't say sorry much, won't account for themselves.

You have been married a very long time. You know how he operates. I am curious what you were hoping to accomplish with discussing these things with him?

And... .everyone has limits. You feel you cannot cope. Those are valid feelings. What are you considering as your next steps?

You have been married a very long time. You know how he operates. I am curious what you were hoping to accomplish with discussing these things with him?

Sometimes we just have to get the load off of us and place it on them because we carry this crap around for so long and try to bear the burden because we "know" how they are. We live a life "accepting" that they never will be accountable for their actions and they will never say they are sorry (rare) for their behavior. We know deep down that it will not accomplish much if anything other than getting it out there.

Doing this can also result in us feeling worse. When someone projects, they project their feelings outward on others. So, unloading can result in having it all heaped on us, along with the anger it triggers. Unloading with the hope of feeling heard, understood and leading to accountability can be a disappointment.

Personally, I have not had much success with words, but with actions. Actions being boundaries. If the conversation is leading into a circular argument, I stop talking. I literally just stop. If someone is saying cruel things to me, I can choose to not react, not engage, and also walk out of the room or say I need to leave if on the phone. What I don't do is react back by being rude, hanging up, or the ST. I simply say " I need a moment, excuse me" and stop.

I can also not participate in baited conversations. Something like "how dare you" can be responded to by, saying, I see you are concerned, but I would like to have this conversation later.

The key to me is to check in with myself. If I am feeling upset by the situation, I don't think I can have a discussion. Some types of discussions don't work. But firmly, and not reactionary boundaries can make a difference.

Notwendy,

So the action in Verbenas case may be... .she knows she has had enough of this in 33.5 years and divorce appears to be in the future. She knows he is not going to change and she knows she is not going to feel any different about his behavior so her only option now is accept his behavior OR move on and plan her future with divorce as the only way out instead of trying to get him to see the light?

When someone projects, they project their feelings outward on others.

did you mean she was projecting her feelings onto him?

If the conversation is leading into a circular argument, I stop talking. I literally just stop. If someone is saying cruel things to me, I can choose to not react, not engage, and also walk out of the room or say I need to leave if on the phone. What I don't do is react back by being rude, hanging up, or the ST. I simply say " I need a moment, excuse me" and stop.

I have had some success with this which is progress for me |iiii

Hey Verbena,

I admire your courage to stand up for yourself after 33.5 years of marriage.  I was married for about half that time to my BPDxW, and it nearly destroyed me.  That you have persevered for so long is a testament to your values and commitment.  Yet I came to doubt what I was committed to, which in my case was marriage to an abusive alcoholic suffering from BPD.  Towards the end, my T asked me if I thought that I had "tried everything"?  I said, "Yes, I think I have."  She replied, "I think so, too."  That was a lightbulb moment for me.

LuckyJim

Verbena, you've put up with his behavior for so long and you've tried everything you could possibly do. He has not taken responsibility nor has he been willing to change nor participate in counseling.

I've been in your shoes and I finally had enough and ended my marriage. It was one of the best decisions I ever made. Certainly it was a struggle after so many years, but it was such a relief to no longer put up with the rages and the abuse. I wish you the best as you move forward.  

Daniell, I take exception to your depiction of "triangulation and parental alienation". Having grown up with a raging BPD mother, learning to stay away from her was a survival strategy. I think Verbena did the best she could in advising her children to avoid their father while he was dysregulated. It is devastating as a child to think that you're responsible for your parent's rage.

ByFaith,

What I mean by projecting, I was referring to someone who has BPD. They tend to project. They also tend to have a weak sense of self and if criticized, or they feel they are criticized, it can feel very painful to them. Since they tend to project bad feelings they are likely to react poorly to being told by their spouse that they have a problem or are causing problems.

I did not mean Verbena was projecting. I was talking about the reaction of her H to her saying this:

When I tried to tell him how his behavior over the years made me distance myself from him--and that doing that was a mistake on my part because it made our marriage worse--he interrupted me with "Where do you get this stuff? It sounds like you are quoting from a psychology textbook."

What I think we hope when we say to someone " you are hurting me, or your behavior is hurting me" is for them to say they are sorry and will try not to hurt us. If someone projects then they can have an opposite response- being critical back ,deflecting the conversation, as Verbena's H did. That is a form of projection.

thanks Notwendy... .that's what I thought you meant. I get this all of the time from my wife.   

Also verbena I agree with Lucky Jim... .I admire your courage to stand up for yourself after 33.5 years of marriage. That you have persevered for so long is a testament to your values and commitment.

Verbena... I understand how difficult this is for you and admire you as well for your courage. I also have been married to my uBPDw for 33 years 4 months and a few days. Things that were never in my vocabulary were codependency, BPD, enabler ect.  By the time I figured things were not right I was entrenched. I also made excuse after excuse to the kids for their Moms behavior. I was still doing this when my oldest was in college and the younger kids were about to finish high school. I never believed in therapy, although at her request I went some 20 years ago. It was a highly recommended marriage councilor and after the 2nd visit he said if my uBPDw wouldn't come with me, he couldn't help us. He told me then I am not the ogre I was told I am. Man, did I miss those clues.

A few years ago I knew I needed answers so I googled "walking on eggshells" and this is were it lead me. ( Thank you Randi! )  I was woken up! I know she has issues I cannot help but I also know I have my share of enabling her ways. Here is the thing; around any other human being I will and have stood toe to toe over right and wrong. I will stand up and do things when nobody else has the moxy to do so... but when it came to her, I shut up and took it, hoping she will get it all out and never stood up for myself. I started making boundaries and started working on me and that was gas on a fire. I left for one night after her raging and getting violent. That night as I was trying to get away she threw a 4 foot wooden bench at me as I was getting down the stairs as fast as possible. I never talked about this to anyone before now. I went back the next morning to try again. Just as I was getting serious about trying to make the situation better, she was diagnosed with cancer. F.O.G. had a new meaning.

I was told I was the root cause of her cancer. She is a cancer survivor now and 2 years cancer free. During surgeries and chemo things went right back to status quo. At some point you have to realize the reality and know when enough is enough. That is a very hard thing to do when 3/4 of your life was no where near normal. I re-read the Characteristics of a Healthy Intimate Relationship this morning after reading your post and cannot even imagine what that would be like, but everyone deserves to be cared for, loved and forgiven, and mostly feel protected by their SO. If you are not, you need to love yourself enough to get out of that situation.

I know you have tried and this is not easy after a lifetime with that person. I know God WILL guide as well as protect you.  I wish you the very best.

 

I absolutely despise parental alienation and would never, and have never, attempted to do that.  I carry a lot a guilt over telling my children when they were young to avoid their father when he was in one of his nasty, negative moods.  I knew I couldn't keep pretending he was not acting the way he was, and I knew that as they got older I couldn't keep lying to them that he wasn't actually angry.  I did tell them to leave him alone when he was like this, but I always told them it had nothing to do with them. 

We have a BPD daughter who is almost 31.  She is much, much better than she has ever been, but she still struggles.  I have often wondered if how I dealt with their father's behavior had anything to do with her having BPD. 

So I strongly resent being told that I triangulated my children or tried to alienate them from their father.  I have made mistakes--many of them--but that isn't one of them.  Both my son and daughter have a good relationship with their father, and I wouldn't want it any other way. 

As far as being called courageous... .well, I haven't really felt that way, but thank you.   I have spent decades avoiding the issues and normalizing my marriage out of FEAR.  I'm not saying I've ever been physically afraid of my husband.  I'm saying I have feared what it would mean to walk away. 

I have a ton to do to be ready to be on my own.  I have never lived on my own in my 55 years, handled a car loan on my own, dealt with finances to any degree on my own.  I have a lot to learn.

I know that God will hold my hand through each and every step and take care of me.  He tells us over and over not to be fearful but lean on Him.  That is my overall plan.

I will be getting my own bank accounts soon, and I will start using my son-in-law as my assistant for decorating jobs.  I am a retired teacher and now focus on design work.  I could continue to ask for my husband's help with this, and I think he would continue to help me as he always has.  But, I think it's best to be less dependent on him for this in preparation for the future.  My son-in-law says he is more than willing to help me with whatever I need. 

Both my children and son-in-law know that I am at the end of my rope and that I need to start moving in a different direction. 

I dont care if you take exception, cat, it simply is my own opinion. You can redirect and support a child WITHOUT saying mommy or daddy is dangerous and must be avoided.  

You certainly did triangulate and parental alienate, verbena. Taking a child aside and coaching them in a negative way is alienation. Getting them on your side by doing so is triangulation. It is what it is.

You have been quite strongly vocal, here, very negative in many of your posts. I see a ton of anger and bitterness. Like ff wife, involving the children is suspect.

However since you are in denial, i wont prod at you, eventually people come to realizations when they are ready.

I have never told my children their daddy was dangerous.  Not then, not now.  I did not take them aside and coach them.  They came to me asking questions and I told them it was best to avoid their daddy because he was so angry at that time.  And I told them it was not their fault. 

You're entitled to your opinion as I am mine.  I'm the one who was here when it all happened, and you weren't. 

My son, who is now 26, left home at 18 and rarely visited for the first two years even though he was only two hours away at college.  At some point during his junior year, he came home for several days and apparently ended up confronting his father over his behavior.  I wasn't there when it happened, but my son came to me and told me about it.  He also said to me, "I guess he had forgotten how Dad is.  I really don't know how you do it, Mom."  

Later, my son apologized to me for saying what he did about his dad, but I knew he was speaking from his heart.  They still have a very good relationship in spite of all this, but I do think it would be more difficult if they saw each other on a regular basis.  My son lives overseas now and has for almost three years.

I minimized my husband's behavior for years to many people who were aware of it, and especially to myself.  I can't do that anymore.  It has taken a toll on me and I have to do what I need to do to improve my life. 

Bravo, Verbena.  My BPDxW is a gregarious person and was regarded as the unofficial "mayor" of our town.  Little did people suspect what she was like behind closed doors.  I covered up for her many times, which I'm not proud of.  Those w/BPD, in my experience, are quite careful about hiding their disorder, and only the closest friends and family members get to see what they are really like.  Like your attitude, Verbena.  Do what you need to do.  Don't forget to listen to your gut feelings (I ignored mine, which caused years of suffering),

LuckyJim

There is a big difference between a parent who plants ideas in their children's minds and one who responds to their children's questions with guidance about a healthy boundary. My own daughter is quite worried about her father because he acts like "he's not okay" and she is afraid that he might do something impulsive that would hurt himself or her. It is appropriate for me to help give her tools to respond appropriately.

Personally,  I don't think it is a mistake to distance ourselves from people who hurt us repeatedly - that is a healthy response.  Being with a PWBPD can twist our own thinking so that it is like theirs.

empath, you're right about the twisted thinking.  Sometimes it makes me question what I know is really the truth.  The passive agressive mind games only really started in the last few years. 

succotash, 33 years, 4 months, and a few days huh?  Not that you're counting, of course.  Yes, it is a LONG time to struggle with a relationship. I'm sorry you went through all that.  My husband has never been violent (unless you count lots of door slamming, the kind that shake the whole house), but there was a scary rage about a year ago that almost had an evil quality about it.  Something about his voice... .It didn't even sound like him. 

Verbena,

I think you are on solid footing with what you told your kids. 

That is good, general advice that applies to everyone.  The fact that a person is a parent of a kid doesn't change that they should be avoided when angry.  Give them space to calm.

Now, if you had gotten into details and said, ":)addy isn't normal.  He does this at 3 times the rate of the average population, blah blah blah, "  OK, now you could be planting a see about ":)addy is not right".


OK, you know me.  I'm a stayer at heart.  One thing that jumped out at me was "he shut me down fast". 

Have you ever done a talking stick?  Take one minute turns, or two minute turns.  Whoever has the stick gets to talk.  Other person focuses on open ears.

I think I've asked before.  What happens if you call his pastor and schedule a meeting and invite him.  It's not counseling.  You have questions about the Bible and how it applies to your life.  You are giving your husband the chanc to be the spiritual leader he is called to be and show up, and you are going to an expert (pastor) to make sure that you are not straying too far afield.

Is there an interim step before divorce? 

FF

Formflier,

Thank you for your response.  I know that I did my best with my children.  They are now both grown and have their own frustrations with their father's behavior.  They both have a pretty good relationship with him, though, and my desire is that a divorce does not change that.  

In hindsight, it probably would have been much better all those years ago  to go to my husband and tell him the children were asking why he was so angry and that I didn't know what to tell them and would he talk to them.  His typical response whenever I used to ask him why he was angry was a very angry, "I'm NOT angry!" And then he'd walk away and not talk to me.  So that might not have worked very well either.  Who knows.  

As for the talking stick,  he would think it was ridiculous and wouldn't do it.  And even if he agreed to the stick, once I brought up my own failings and wanted to explain them, he would get up and walk away.  If he isn't going to be accountable, he doesn't want me to be either.  He basically just wants me to stop talking about all this  completely.  He told me this the other night.  "Stop bringing this up.  Stop talking about it."

I asked him about three months ago to go to counseling and he refused.  I asked him again a couple of weeks later to reconsider.  He refused.  The other night when we talked, I asked if he would consider talking to his pastor with me (used to be my pastor until I left that church because I felt so fake there given our situation), and he said, "What possible good would that do?"  

If I tried again to bring up the subject of speaking to his pastor but didn't use the word counseling, he would still say no.  My husband does not want to talk to me, or to anyone, about anything remotely connected to our issues.  He doesn't want to, and he isn't going to.  That's the message I am getting from him.  

I think my husband believes he has nothing to do with any of this.  I am the problem.  I left the church and he doesn't understand why, nothing to do with him. I want to do counseling and that makes no sense to him, nothing to do with him.  I want to talk about how to fix our marriage, and his solution is just stop talking about it and move on. Nothing to do with him.  

I really believe he will go to his grave saying, "I don't remember.  That never happened.  Nothing to do with me."

I don't know what else I can do other than start taking baby steps toward divorce.  I'm still praying for direction.  

I think you should schedule a time with his pastor.  Make sure he is available.  Have at least 4 meetings. 

If he refuses to come and at least sit and listen, then you have your answer.

Subject matter is you.  What can you do to help heal the marriage.

Stay away from divorce talk until meeting 5.  Assuming he is a no show.

You can tell I am a metric guy, my hope is that your divorce decision is based on your feelings AND measurable effort on your part and measurable failure on his.

FF

FF, I am trying not to make things worse than they already are.  My husband is not going to attend meetings with me with his pastor.  He has absolutely said he will not.  I have never seen my husband back down from a position in over three decades, so I have to take him at his word when he has told me (three times now) that he will NOT go to speak with anyone--not alone and not with me.  

If I tell my husband that I will just go see the pastor by myself, there will be serious fallout around here.  We are not in a financial position currently to support two households, so neither of us could just up and move out to give the other some space if things suddenly get much worse, which they will, if I go to his pastor.

Right now, things are civil between my husband and me.  It's not a marriage by any means, but we're existing mostly peacefully.  Our 17-month old grandson is here daily, and I have to think about him, too, in any decision I make that could worsen the situation.  

My husband does not want our situation talked about with anyone.  He does not want to talk about it with me either.  I believe my husband will perceive me going to his pastor by myself, without his agreement, as me backing him into a corner.  This is something I really want to avoid.  

Also, I cannot do this by myself.  My husband has very, very deep issues that need to be dealt with,  I need help for myself,  and we need help together for our marriage.  

I appreciate all of your suggestions, I really do.  I'm just being honest about the reality of my situation.

A couple of months ago, I told my husband that we could end up divorced if we did not get some help.  Just this week, I told him I believed we WOULD end up divorced if we did not get some help.  He has completely ignored these comments.  He had no response whatsoever.

It's possible that he doesn't think I am serious, I'm not sure.  I do believe that he will avoid dealing with our problems at all costs--even divorce. 

We will have been married 34 years in August.  I just can't do this anymore. 

Verbena,

Nobody but you knows the extent of your marriage and how hard you tried. After 33 + years, I believe you will make the best decision you can in the situation you are in.

From my own experience with a BPD parent, I think there is a difference between  parental alienation and acknowledging a parent's problems. When BPD mom was angry at my father, she would try to coerce us to "her side". In her world, there were two sides to people in her life. People were either on her side or not on her side. If it took saying things about the other person to support her case, then she would.

My father's side of this was mostly frank denial. There was no discussion of mental illness. He either had my mother on a pedestal- she could do no wrong, we were forbidden to say anything about her that didn't present her in a positive light. In rare moments of stress, he would vent, but if we supported his view, he would soon change to his positive view of her and get angry if we continued to do so.

I found out about her having BPD later from other sources.

I know that for my father, saying anything was walking a line between parental alienation and acknowledging that we kids were developing a sense of our own reality, and could clearly see that our mother was different from our friends' mothers. It is a delicate situation. However, one thing I think is a difference is intent. Mom's intent was to get us on "her side". Another intent could be to support the kids in understanding the situation and to reinforce their own boundaries about what is acceptable behavior to them.

Because this is such a hard line to walk I think it would help to have a counselor involved. I know that for you, your children are grown adults, but it may help with younger kids ( and kids of any age) to have an advocate who is not a parent inform them and help them cope.

Thank you all for the supportive responses.  I wish I had sought out resources like this one ages ago.  Of course, there was no Internet back when this marriage began, and I didn't know what I was dealing with really until just the past few years. I'm actually still not sure he is BPD.  I do know he has false memories and very distorted thinking.  And I've known for decades that he was seething with anger. 

The parental alienation accusation made here is not based on reality, but I do wish I had gotten my kids and myself into counseling... .or something... .long ago.  I'm not sure that staying with their father was really the right thing to do, but I can't change that now.  I just have to move forward. 

notwendy, I can't even imagine what you had to endure growing up with your BPD mother.  The stories you've told have made my heart break for you.  Thank you for your insight into my situation. 

Thanks Verbena,

Like many children, we thought this is the way things are. It was not until we were older and spent time away from home with other mothers ( relatives, friends' mothers) that we noticed a difference.

Also, we were fortunate that things were not as bad as they could have been. My parents were able to cloth us, feed us, we had nice places to live and access to good education. This contributed to our resilience, but also made it hard to seek out help. Nobody would ever believe that kids with nice clothes to wear and good grades were subjected to the issues we were. Yet, like you, it was before the internet and a generation that knew little about mental illness or treatment.

When I look at pictures of my parents as newlyweds, at pictures of my father looking so happy and my beautiful mother, I wonder when did this start to be difficult for them, for him, and how they must have not had a clue at the time. I truly believe that he did the best he could in their time. Mental illness was something to hide.

Like most parents, we did the best we could with our kids. The kids know something, they ask, and need adults to be honest with them. Parental alientation IMHO is different than validating children's feelings. I would also say that in the long run, IMHO  it is the parent's behavior that alienates the children from them- ie the relationship with my mother was determined more by her behavior to me than anything my father could have said or not said.

You will do what is best for you, and by doing so, you will be your best for your children and grandchildren.

notwendy, as hard as it must have been growing up with your mom, it still sounds like you had a lot to be thankful for. I'm sure your dad did the best he could with the situation.  It was just a different time.

As adults now, my children have noticed and commented on how their dad seems worse.  He is worse, but they're also not around him as much as they used to be.  I think that accounts for some of it. 

A few years ago I told my son, now 26, how much I appreciated the fact that he never gave us an ounce of trouble growing up.  He just looked at me and said, "Mom, I knew you had a lot on your plate."  No doubt he was mainly referring to the nightmare years of his sister who has BPD (she is MUCH better now), but he also knew it wasn't easy for me because of his dad. 

You're right, notwendy, about kids just "knowing" that something is off and the importance of a responsible adult to provide some validation when they ask questions.  My daughter caught me by surprise the other day when she asked me out of the blue why I married her father if he was always like this.  Then she answered her own question and said, "He must have been different before you married him."  I just told her that things have changed since then. 

It was three months into my marriage when I began to see the behavior.  He did a great job at masking his issues while we were dating.  I had no clue what I was dealing with, not then and not for many years after that.

Verbena,

I'm not saying you are doing anything wrong, hoping you can look at this from all angles and make wise decisions.

I see fear in the quote above.  What do we teach about making decisions based on fear?

I'm also not saying that now is the time to do this.  In fact, I would suggest a wise course of action is to make sure your pathway to divorce is clear (whatever that is) but before taking steps down that pathway (or too many steps).

Let me sweeten up the idea some.

1.  Ask him to set up the meeting.  If he says no, then let him know a date and time a week or so out where you will consider his actions to have said no.  (I don't like the way I've worded this,   it doesn't need to be a line in the sand, )   Perhaps this ":)ear hubby, please contact pastor x by this coming Saturday to set up a time for us to discuss some biblical (insert your appropriate word here) issues.  My desire is that we find time the following week to meet with him."

Don't react to his no statements and inquiries.  Simply state that you will discuss it at the meeting.

2.  It is important that there is a date in the first request.  Let that date pass by a few days then contact the pastor yourself.  Make an appointment for a time that you believe your hubby to be free.  Once the appointment is set, invite your hubby.  Attend the appointment regardless of whether or not he shows.


3.  If he wants to know what is talked about, he can show up.  Don't speak of the meetings any other time.

Stay away from saying "the meeting is about us" or "you".

If he refuses to show up to several of these meetings, then, you have some solid evidence that he is going the other way.

Or not going with you.

That, coupled with your experiences up to this point, should give you peace of mind about taking further steps toward divorce.

If he agrees to go to the meeting, well, that will be several threads worth of stuff.

FF

FF, yes you are right that there is some fear in my statement about fallout.   Fear is what has kept me from leaving this marriage before now--fear that being on my own would be too difficult.  I no longer have that fear.  I already have a peace that I have done all I can. 

You have to remember that I have been dealing with all this for 33 years, far longer than you have been dealing with your wife's issues.  Can you envision another 25 or so years of the last few months dealing with your wife? At some point, enough is just enough. 

I know my husband and nothing good will come from attempting again to get him to go with me to see his pastor.  He won't do it.  Nothing good will come from me going without him, other than it will make him more angry at me than he already is. 

Whether I call it counseling, discussing Biblical issues, making it all about me and not him... .he won't participate and I know this.  If anything, me going without him will just deepen his shame that he is unwilling to work on our marriage.  He can't handle his pastor knowing that he refuses to take part in counseling.  He needs to pin this all on me to save face.  I figured that out last week with some comments he made to me. 

Should I be concerned about his shame?  His stubborness?  Maybe not.  But I cannot force this issue anymore.  He has made his decision to do nothing, to ignore my requests for help, to ignore my attempts at solving our issues on our own.  He wants no part of any of it. 

I hope this doesn't come across as me not being appreciative of your responses.  I am very appreciative.  I just know that the gig is up.  I have to move forward with some tough choices and prepare for my future without him. 

Today I am getting my own bank account.  Later this week I am having someone evaluate my home in the event we have to sell it.  I am telling my husband that I have taken this steps.  I am not saying to him that we must rush out and file for divorce right now.  It's going to take time.  But he needs to know I am serious. 

Hey, first of all, this is me, the tough grumpy naval aviator.  And you are here among friends.  So, please speak plainly.

I don't think it is a good idea you inform your husband of your steps

At least not right now.

I would be more "fearful" that he would react to that, than going to his pastor.

Get things set up, then discuss with him.  Preferably with his pastor or another third party.

There is some odd thinking here.  You don't want to make him more angry, yet are telling him about steps to divorce him.

One of the reasons I post the way I do, is that I'm sure I don't think clearly "in my own stuff" and I appreciate the challenges.

And I'm also just as sure that I am not always right, and my not be in your case.

Big question:  If you are going to divorce him, why do you care if he knows you are serious?

So, if he says  "I see you are serious, "   you sill divorce him.

If he taunts you and says "you don't have the guts to divorce me"  you still divorce him.

What am I missing in the desire for him to "know" you are serious.

FF

Ok, you make some good points, FF.  

My intention was to set up the account and then discuss it with him--if he will talk to me.  I can say nothing about the new account, but he is going to know when my retirement check is no longer being deposited in our joint account.  Maybe not today, but very soon.

Discussing anything with him in front of a third party is not going to work, and certainly not with his pastor.  He won't do that.  

I could keep the information from the realtor to myself for now, and I might do that.

If I am coming across as trying to "shock" him into reality, I'm really not.  I'm not sure anything will make my husband face the reality of our marriage.  But I AM serious that I am going to take some steps forward, and I DO have to tell him about the bank account at the very least.  

Why do you have to talk to him about the bank account?

The  real question.  Why are you choosing to tell him, or not tell him.?

FF

FF, Here's why I have to tell him about the bank account.

I am a retired teacher and get a monthly annuity which is automatically deposited into our joint bank account.  I just returned home from another bank where I set up both checking and savings accounts in my name.  

The next step is to send in the paperwork to the retirement system with a voided check attached.  My husband checks our account online daily.  He also looks at our checkbook almost daily.  As soon as he notices that a check is missing, he is going to ask me where it is.  I guess I could play dumb or lie about it, but I'm not going to.

Even if he doesn't notice the missing check for a few days,  he is definitely going to notice the missing money (my annuity check) within the next month.  

Both my husband and I contribute money to our household to pay our bills.  I have no intention in leaving all the bills for him to pay on his own.  We're still married; we still have the same bills and responsibilites together.  

My hope is that he will be willing to have a discussion with me which bills I will pay from my account and which ones he will pay.  I have a number of married friends who keep their money separate and share in the bill paying.  I'm not saying that's the best way to do it, and it's obviously not the way my husband and I have ever done it. But, if divorce is likely--and I feel that it is--then I am going to need my own accounts.  He handles everything financial in our marriage; I've handled nothing, other than contribute the money.  That needs to change.  

So, I can wait until he notices the missing voided check or wait until he notices the missing money in the joint account, whichever comes first.  But what's the difference?  We need to discuss the bills.  

Knowing my husband, I may get the silent treatment for weeks once I've told him I have made this change.  I suppose if that happens, then I will just decide on my own which bills to pay from my new account.  My hope is, though, that we can have a discussion about the bill paying now.  

This is what I plan on saying to him:  

"I have set up an account for myself and am having my retirement annuity directed deposited into it.  Can we discuss who will pay what when our bills come due again?"

I don't plan to even say the word divorce.  He has ignored my mentoning divorce several times now anyway, so what's the point.  I have taken this step because I think it was the right thing to do considering what I see for our future.

I know from decades of experience, that my husband perceives any idea I have as a bad one--even if he actually thinks it's a good idea.  This is just how he is.  He will automatically tell me that my ideas won't work.  Sometimes, he will end up going along with the idea but will become angry later if I ask what changed his mind.  He does not believe in changing his mind once it's made it.  Just how he is.  In fact, he has claimed a number of times that he never said he disagreed with an idea I had and, therefore, did not change his mind at all.  Or he will say he doesn't remember which, in his disorted thinking, means it never happened.

Do you see what I'm really dealing with here?  I don't have a whole lot to work with. 

  We'll see how it goes.  I have decided for now to say nothing about having our house evaluated by a realtor.   

Hey Verbena, This sounds fine to me.  You aren't asking for his permission in order to do it; instead, you are presenting it as a fait accompli, which has a power to it.  Let us know how it goes.

LuckyJim

So, this is not me changing my mind, this is me trying to look at an issue from all angles.

Please think about your values and how you would like to be treated.

Would you rather him discuss with you, or let you find out?

To me, it seems like the right thing to do, the thing that has integrity is to approach him and let him know.

Is there a way that you approach him about these discussions?  My guess is the answer is no.

Do you eat dinner together? 

I would use the term, "find a time to discuss handling household finances".  Put the ball in his court.  Step back and don't press him.

Is there anything he can do to stop this, ?  It sounds already done and not stoppable.  That pushes me toward you approaching him. 

You get to choose the approach, vice being surprised.

Thoughts?

FF

This isn't a solution, just a way to kick the can down the road.  The likely reason the bank wants a voided check is to verify the routing number.  If you can convince the bank that you can read and transfer the number yourself, you may not need a voided check.   Thus, you have a few more days / weeks to get settled into your new account, and figure if / what / when to talk about it.

I will not speculate on you relationship, or what is proper, but, I will say that I have reached a point in which I do things unilaterally.  For example, I privately opened my own bank account and divert some money there each paycheck.  That's become my divorce war chest.  It hasn't been noticed, but my wife doesn't scrutinize.  All the bills and household expenses are still paid in full from my check, so there's nothing going undone. 

I do advocate for being independent and self-reliant.  I don't see it as being unfaithful in a relationship.  Just dropping this note to give you encouragement.  I say, you're likely going to face his wrath for something - one way or another, so you might as well follow your gut and do things that give you power over yourself.

When I decided to get my own bank account, I had thought through the reasons for the account, and we had discussed the reasons several times before hand. What are the reasons that you have for separating your finances and what are your proposals for going forward? What are the emotional ones and the logistical ones?

Are you asking rhetorically? 

Or, myself, or the OP specifically?

I would venture to say that everyone should go into a relationship being able to support themselves and remain, or become, autonomous.  Thus separate bank accounts are always appropriate.  A household has shared expenses and shared responsibilities, so goals need to be made together, but, everyone should always have their own account separately, in addition to the household accounts.  IMHO.  That's the advice I'm giving to my kids. 

That is great advice. 

In "traditional" Christian families it often ends up like Verbena and what I used to be in.  Everything shared and generally directed by the man.

In my case, I was the breadwinner and my wife raised kids.  I was fine with it for 15 years, until she went off the rails (so to speak). 

Verbena,   how long have things been this way, financially speaking.  My guess is that you will say the entire marriage.

FF

FF, I would not want to just find out about another bank account.  I would want to be told and discuss it.  I sent my husband a text earlier telling him, "I have opened my own account.  I would like to discuss which bills each of us will pay." 

He's at work and out and about all day, but he does not text while driving--or even read texts while driving.  If I knew he did that, I wouldn't have sent the message through text. 

I didn't call him because he would have had nothing to say and then told me he had to go.

I didn't elect to tell him in person because he would walk away, probably slamming a door on his way out of the room. 

Do I know 100 percent that these would have been his reactions? No, but it's a pretty sure bet.  So I texted him.  He is very slow to form his thoughts.  This gives him time to think about discussing the bank account with me.  The ball is now in his court. He can discuss it with me if and when he is ready.

Without some kind of dialogue between us as a starting point and without professional counseling, I do think the path we're on leads to divorce. 

My husband has always handled the finances, but for a few years I wrote the checks and mailed off the bills each month. He  has told me that I have NEVER paid the bills in our entire marriage, and he believes this is the truth. 

Sam... .I've already mailed the voided check.  I, too, got tired of trying to get his agreement on how to do things.  Today was the first time I have done something concerning finances completely on my own.  The last time I had my own bank account was 1981.  Yeah, I'm old. 

empath:  My reason for getting my own account is both for emotional and logistical reasons.  I need to build a lot of confidence in myself that I can handle money situations on my own.  It's bothered me for years how uninvolved I've been, and that's my fault.  I will need my own account if I am single, so I'm getting it now. 

Big steps forward, Verbena. I'm proud of you for taking action.

I went to the bank this weekend to ask about how to disentangle our joint accounts. I learned I'd have to open my own account, and then I could transfer funds and reassign payments to that account. I had just gone in for informational purposes, but I agreed on the spot to open the accounts. I don't have to use them. But they're ready.

I made every effort I could to save my marriage. I see you having exhausted all the things you can do and are willing to do. At this point you are changing the game. I see a couple paths for you and your H, given how you feel and what you say of his reactions/opinions:

1. Separate your finances and stop living together. Do it in a civil/amicable way, dividing things fairly. From what you say, the two of you will probably have to sell the house and find other living quarters.

2. It could turn into a legal/financial pissing match.

He could transfer joint assets into an individual account, leaving you in a lurch. Or run up a lot of joint debt.

Do you need to do anything to protect yourself from this? You know him very well--does this sound like something he might do? It sounds like he mostly withdraws rather than attacking you, so perhaps these things are unlikely?

Yes, this kind mess should get straightened out in a legal dispute, eventually, but it might take years, and the money might just be gone.

... .you would do well to understand your legal position in a divorce filing, no matter what your choice ends up being. Consider consulting a lawyer. Consider posting on the legal board here.

Grey Kitty, I don't believe my husband would run up debt, etc to try to hurt me. That doesn't mean he wouldn't, but it doesn't sound like him.

I plan to consult an attorney soon.

Yes, I expect we would have to sell the house. It's paid for.

I suppose we could work out something where I might keep it, but that is unlikely.

My husband hates lawyers almost as much as psychologists. If I can get him to understand that a difficult divorce will benefit only the lawyers, he might agree to do this amicably. It will be expensive no matter what. How expensive is the question.

He's home now. No mention of my text today and I am not bringing it up.

Perhaps you can use this to your advantage. (Not to take advantage of him, mind you, just to get a fair resolution quickly.) Both that he tends to be passive, and he hates lawyers.

Put your money in your account. Find and consult your attorney with your money. Come up with a fair division plan.

Tell him that this is what you plan to do. See if he will agree to it. Let him consult a lawyer if he wants to.

How do you feel about the house and 34 years of belongings in it? If you get a fair share division of stuff, do you care whether you end up with anything?

I wonder if his passivity is so that he can be the blameless one at the end of the marriage. This way, he can be the victim, even though he surely contributed to the demise of the relationship. By doing nothing, he can feel he didn't do it. We all know that isn't true, but he can look at it this way.

Stonewalling is a destructive force in a relationship.

I recall my H being very passive, until I got upset. Then I would be the one with the problem- crying while he could say he was calm.

There was a time he refused to participate in any form of MC, get help or acknowledge the issues. I'm pretty sure I would have been in your shoes had he not decided to make some effort. It is maddening to have someone be passive and refuse to try to make things better.

I have no idea why he decided to try. That's a mystery- everyone is different, but I know that I felt at my wits' end when he didn't. I think he has some traits but not the whole spectrum, just enough to match my co-dependency and cause problems for us. My mother is severely affected and that seems to be a different level of difficulty.

notwendy, I think you nailed it.  He needs to appear blameless and he needs to feel this was all my idea and he had nothing to do with the position we are.  You're right also about stonewalling being a destrucive force.  And gaslighting... .And the silent treatment... .

Grey Kitty, that is basically what I was thinking.  Consult an attorney and come up with a fair plan and present it to him.  As far as my house goes, I hate to let it go.  I've spent twenty-three years making it beautiful, inside and out. The work I've done on this house is the reason I got into decorating for others.  It was my lab so to speak.  People come over and compliment me on my work, but I cannot think of a single time my husband has ever told me I've done a good job with it.  He just can't bring himself to pay me a compliment, and this has bothered me for years.  Oh well.   

There are definitely things in the house that I want.  I think he will be less attached to most of it than I am. Like most people, we have too much stuff.  I plan to do some purging soon.   

This is just such a sad situation. 

UPDATE:  He never responded to my text this morning about the bank account.  He came home from work and never said a word about it. 

It is hard to know what someone is feeling when they don't talk. However, this seems to be how he handles things. When all you have in your (relationship) tool box is a hammer (silence), then you use it for everything.

 

Verbena,

When we feel "trapped" or "committed" to a certain path, it seems hard to try things that may lead to a different path.  At least it does for me, I"m seeing some of this in you.

Hey, listen, I'm on your side.  You seem like a realist.  I'm a metric guy.  I think it is an 80% certainty that you will get divorced and you will be the one to initiate it.

I do think there are things that you can do/try that will give you more comfort (at a future date, when you are considering your actions) that you "did everything you could". 

I don't think you are there yet.  I see fear competing with realism.

Here is the thing.  What would Notwendy's life be like if she decided that her husband would never go to MC so she quit taking steps in that direction?  To be clear, it is ridiculous that he and your husband refuse(d) to go talk. 

I think there is a good chance that a meeting with his pastor will end up like the text message.  Granted, he may react to the text in a few days. 

I'll also be honest with you, if I had to bet, I don't think he will go.  But I think you should try, for you.  Also to better define a boundary about you making your own choices.

Last:  I'm a big proponent of staying away from texting about big stuff.  I realize that some have made it work.  What if he never got it?  It does happen.

Solution:  Find him when he is sitting.  Perhaps bring him glass of water.  Mention that you have open an account, will be putting funds in there and wish to discuss splitting of bills when he is ready.  Exit the room.

Ball is in his court.  You can go for walk.

Note:  My wife frustrates me to no end with her silence to direct questions about her desires and opinions.  Then will claim I don't care about them.

Sigh.

FF

FF, I suppose I could look back on this in a few years and always find something else that I COULD have done, but I am certain that as of right now--33.5 years later--that I have done all I am GOING to do. If anything, I suspect that I will look back and wonder why I have lived this way for so long.   

Yes, the ball is in his court.  If he refuses to talk to me about my account and which bills I will pay from it, then he does.  Once I get the information from the realtor about the house, I will speak to an attorney and ask his advice on what to do next. 

Baby steps. 

I can't help but be drawn back into the thread here.  Are you still most certain that you are headed for divorce, as your post title suggests?

In which case, never mind about tact and timing or owning your own money.  I think it's time to batten down the hatches and do what's best for you.  Being so sensitive now before divorce dirtiness is like when they clean and disinfect the injection sight before a lethal injection administration.

Sam... .I am certain we are ON A DIRECT PATH to divorce.  Could something change that? Yes, it's possible.  I believe that with God all things are possible.  I don't believe, though, that God can just zap us and make our marriage right if WE do not seek help together and do the work of trying to get to the root of the issues we have.  I can't make my husband do counseling, or talk to me, or deal with any of this.  He has free will and so do I, and he has made it plain he won't participate. 

So I am trying to move forward with small steps, and I'm asking God daily (many times each day) what to do next.  The answer I'm getting is "Trust me to take care of you. Don't worry."  As hard as that is to do, because I'm human and I do have fears, I'm trying.  I'm confident that I've taken the steps so far that I've been led to take.  

That's an interesting analogy about the injection site, and I see your point.  I guess I am trying to walk a fine line between starting this process of protecting myself and still trying to tiptoe around my husband's way of dealing with me.  

I don't want this to get ugly.  I guess I'm afraid if I push too hard, he will push back.  

Bingo,

If you are going to divorce him, why does this matter.

If you conduct your life based on fear that a person with a PD is going to "push back", well, how does this site teach it is going to turn out for you?

Listen, this is not me saying that you are wrong, bad or "should have" done something else in the past.

I am saying that you SHOULD do some things right now, because the values that I sense coming from you say that is the right thing for you to do.   I want you to live for you and not for your husbands push back.  He has controlled the marriage for 33 years with that.  (I'm assuming your reactions have been relatively the same, please correct if I am erroneous)

So, text messages.  Do you KNOW that he got it?  If your values state that you should inform him then do it.  You change your dynamic and let him react to you. 

FF

To be fair to Verbena, I don't think we can compare our situations. I was not married for 33 years at the time- so did not have decades of trying. In addition, the children were young and this was an incentive to work on things for their sake. I truly do not know how we both would have felt decades later with an empty nest.

The decision to stay or leave a marriage is difficult no matter what the decision is and that Verbena can make her own personal decision about that. I have no idea how long I could have endured being faced with silence. Marriage is between two unique people and what happens in one isn't necessarily the same for another. I do think that taking steps to address my own codependency was a huge benefit to me personally.

Sure thing.  I get that.

How many times do you think you were told no before he said yes? 

My purpose here is not to compare situations.  My number one purpose is to point out that it appears to me, that she is altering her behavior (methods of communication) based on what she fears he will do.

Yes, I get it that she has lots of experience.

FF

I guess I'm afraid if I push too hard, he will push back.  

FF replied

If you are going to divorce him... .why does this matter.

To some it would matter, when some people push back it could get ugly. Verbena may not want to have to deal with some of the crazy things that could happen. If her husband got desperate he could do things that could make her life unbearable.

Like right now I am dealing with a D23 who did something very BPDish. She has been removed from my home but now she is putting me in a position to push back on her because she wants to try to get the upper hand on me. I am not the type to play dirty with someone but if she forces my hand I will

I am guessing Verbena means some type of pushback that makes her do things out of character or out of any comfort zone

When my last wife left me I had to do things out of my normal behavior to get something accomplished, it didn't feel good doing them, but I did them

hopefully that made sense

Verbana, I'm not going to suggest you stop walking toward divorce. There really isn't much to save in your marriage anymore, from what you say.

I know some people who are on the other side and their lives are so much better than they were before that it is amazing. (Not quite yet for me personally--life is starting to improve, but I've still got a ways to go. Months back my wife expressed regret over ending things with us, but I'm not asking again, and I'm not sure how she feels about it today.)

Do continue to offer your husband chances to change his path, and continue to do all you can to treat him with kindness and respect as walk toward divorce.

You will be glad you did.

And note--that doesn't mean go back to how things didn't work, and doesn't mean stay in a holding pattern just in case he does something different.

You are pretty sure he won't accept that he might be responsible for something and change his behavior. I concur. I doubt he ever thought you would walk out after 33 years. Perhaps when he realizes you mean it he will choose differently. Perhaps he won't. Perhaps it will be too little, too late.

Verbena,

This is the point that I am attempting to make. 

Fortunately (unfortuantely, depending on how you look at it), I have a number of friends that are divorced.  There are a few that regret the decision, there are many that regret things they did or ways they treated their spouse on the way out.

Some of these friends were involved with people that likely had PDs.

Hang in there.

FF

Yes, I totally agree with byfaith. Divorce is the ultimate rejection and we know how pwBPD or other PDs handle rejection.

My first husband became much less anchored to reality in ways that I never would have suspected after I initiated divorce. It's one thing to walk on eggshells when actively involved in a relationship with a pwBPD. It's quite a different matter when untwining a long marriage. No matter how smoothly soon to be ex-partners can come to agreement on issues, there are bound to be bumps along the path. I think being extra sensitive at these times is important.