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Title: The shame explained? Post by: Thegardiner on April 22, 2016, 01:41:02 PM Can someone assist in explaining the 'the shame' (both childhood and adult) that is referred to? As a non, I'm not sure I understand. It seems the shame plays such a pivotal point.
Quote from the best article ever written "engulfment also means loss of control, annihilation fantasies and shame. Shame activates the punitive parent that resides in their inner world, their psyche. The attachment failure has now become shame based for the Borderline. It will soon become guilt driven for the lonely child" Title: Re: The shame explained? Post by: once removed on April 22, 2016, 02:21:59 PM if the thoughts of member 2010 resonate with you, you may want to look into the writings of james masterson, particularly Search For The Real Self : Unmasking The Personality Disorders Of Our Age
Title: Re: The shame explained? Post by: WoundedBibi on April 22, 2016, 05:35:54 PM Can someone assist in explaining the 'the shame' (both childhood and adult) that is referred to? As a non, I'm not sure I understand. It seems the shame plays such a pivotal point. Quote from the best article ever written "engulfment also means loss of control, annihilation fantasies and shame. Shame activates the punitive parent that resides in their inner world, their psyche. The attachment failure has now become shame based for the Borderline. It will soon become guilt driven for the lonely child" I have only glanced over the first 20 pages or so but I know the writer Onceremoved mentioned is in the book somewhere too, so I'm hoping this will might help. I wanted some more insight myself too. www.creativegrowth.com/bradshaw_shame%201.pdf Title: Re: The shame explained? Post by: GoingBack2OC on April 22, 2016, 05:47:04 PM Can someone assist in explaining the 'the shame' (both childhood and adult) that is referred to? As a non, I'm not sure I understand. It seems the shame plays such a pivotal point. Quote from the best article ever written "engulfment also means loss of control, annihilation fantasies and shame. Shame activates the punitive parent that resides in their inner world, their psyche. The attachment failure has now become shame based for the Borderline. It will soon become guilt driven for the lonely child" I have only glanced over the first 20 pages or so but I know the writer Onceremoved mentioned is in the book somewhere too, so I'm hoping this will might help. I wanted some more insight myself too. www.creativegrowth.com/bradshaw_shame%201.pdf I think it has do deal with the fact that the abandoned child feels shame, which is an emotion that speaks to me of "walking away", "hiding", "running". And the guilt, the lonely child feels, is based on failure. Failure to understand. Failure to be able to reach the other person. To help. The lonely child wants nothing more than to hold, and be held. And has as a result of the abandoned child's shame, and detachment from the lonely child, guilt is an initial emotion the lonely child feels- they could have done more, held closer, loved better. For me, shame does not go away, or at least not as easily as guilt. If you are ashamed... .of an action you took. Will anything ever erase the shame? Even repentance? Even if you are forgiven, will you still feel shame? Guilt, on the other hand, one can make good on. One can do their time. They can make amends, it's repairable. I felt guilty that I stole the money, but I ended up giving it back, and extra, and apologizing, and they forgave me, and now we are friends. The guilt in a sense, can be transformed into something positive, a learning experience. Title: Re: The shame explained? Post by: WoundedBibi on April 22, 2016, 05:51:17 PM Can someone assist in explaining the 'the shame' (both childhood and adult) that is referred to? As a non, I'm not sure I understand. It seems the shame plays such a pivotal point. Quote from the best article ever written "engulfment also means loss of control, annihilation fantasies and shame. Shame activates the punitive parent that resides in their inner world, their psyche. The attachment failure has now become shame based for the Borderline. It will soon become guilt driven for the lonely child" I have only glanced over the first 20 pages or so but I know the writer Onceremoved mentioned is in the book somewhere too, so I'm hoping this will might help. I wanted some more insight myself too. www.creativegrowth.com/bradshaw_shame%201.pdf I think it has do deal with the fact that the abandoned child feels shame, which is an emotion that speaks to me of "walking away", "hiding", "running". And the guilt, the lonely child feels, is based on failure. Failure to understand. Failure to be able to reach the other person. To help. The lonely child wants nothing more than to hold, and be held. And has as a result of the abandoned child's shame, and detachment from the lonely child, guilt is an initial emotion the lonely child feels- they could have done more, held closer, loved better. For me, shame does not go away, or at least not as easily as guilt. If you are ashamed... .of an action you took. Will anything ever erase the shame? Even repentance? Even if you are forgiven, will you still feel shame? Guilt, on the other hand, one can make good on. One can do their time. They can make amends, it's repairable. I felt guilty that I stole the money, but I ended up giving it back, and extra, and apologizing, and they forgave me, and now we are friends. The guilt in a sense, can be transformed into something positive, a learning experience. This type of shame goes much deeper than the shame you describe. Title: Re: The shame explained? Post by: GoingBack2OC on April 22, 2016, 05:55:12 PM Can someone assist in explaining the 'the shame' (both childhood and adult) that is referred to? As a non, I'm not sure I understand. It seems the shame plays such a pivotal point. Quote from the best article ever written "engulfment also means loss of control, annihilation fantasies and shame. Shame activates the punitive parent that resides in their inner world, their psyche. The attachment failure has now become shame based for the Borderline. It will soon become guilt driven for the lonely child" I have only glanced over the first 20 pages or so but I know the writer Onceremoved mentioned is in the book somewhere too, so I'm hoping this will might help. I wanted some more insight myself too. www.creativegrowth.com/bradshaw_shame%201.pdf I think it has do deal with the fact that the abandoned child feels shame, which is an emotion that speaks to me of "walking away", "hiding", "running". And the guilt, the lonely child feels, is based on failure. Failure to understand. Failure to be able to reach the other person. To help. The lonely child wants nothing more than to hold, and be held. And has as a result of the abandoned child's shame, and detachment from the lonely child, guilt is an initial emotion the lonely child feels- they could have done more, held closer, loved better. For me, shame does not go away, or at least not as easily as guilt. If you are ashamed... .of an action you took. Will anything ever erase the shame? Even repentance? Even if you are forgiven, will you still feel shame? Guilt, on the other hand, one can make good on. One can do their time. They can make amends, it's repairable. I felt guilty that I stole the money, but I ended up giving it back, and extra, and apologizing, and they forgave me, and now we are friends. The guilt in a sense, can be transformed into something positive, a learning experience. This type of shame goes much deeper than the shame you describe. Well the shame one person feels could be different or deeper from the next. I was glancing through that PDF that was posted, after my last post, and found this, which in a way echo's (or I echo'd it even having not read it) - but it follows the same thought process for shame vs guilt: "A person with guilt might say, 'I feel awful seeing that I did something which violated my values.' Or the guilty person might say, 'I feel sorry about the consequences of my behaviors.' In so doing the person's values are reaffirmed The possibility of repair exists and learning and growth are promoted. While guilt is a painful feeling of regret and responsibility for one's actions, shame is a painful feeling about oneself as a person. The possibility for repair seems foreclosed to the shameful person because shame is a matter of identity . . . not of behavioral infraction. There is nothing to be learned from it and no growth is opened by the experience because it only confirms one's negative feelings about oneself." Shame for me personally seems more inescapable, and when one is faced with a feeling, a terrible feeling which cannot be fixed, and will not go away, what can one do but run? Title: Re: The shame explained? Post by: WoundedBibi on April 22, 2016, 06:03:57 PM Can someone assist in explaining the 'the shame' (both childhood and adult) that is referred to? As a non, I'm not sure I understand. It seems the shame plays such a pivotal point. Quote from the best article ever written "engulfment also means loss of control, annihilation fantasies and shame. Shame activates the punitive parent that resides in their inner world, their psyche. The attachment failure has now become shame based for the Borderline. It will soon become guilt driven for the lonely child" I have only glanced over the first 20 pages or so but I know the writer Onceremoved mentioned is in the book somewhere too, so I'm hoping this will might help. I wanted some more insight myself too. www.creativegrowth.com/bradshaw_shame%201.pdf I think it has do deal with the fact that the abandoned child feels shame, which is an emotion that speaks to me of "walking away", "hiding", "running". And the guilt, the lonely child feels, is based on failure. Failure to understand. Failure to be able to reach the other person. To help. The lonely child wants nothing more than to hold, and be held. And has as a result of the abandoned child's shame, and detachment from the lonely child, guilt is an initial emotion the lonely child feels- they could have done more, held closer, loved better. For me, shame does not go away, or at least not as easily as guilt. If you are ashamed... .of an action you took. Will anything ever erase the shame? Even repentance? Even if you are forgiven, will you still feel shame? Guilt, on the other hand, one can make good on. One can do their time. They can make amends, it's repairable. I felt guilty that I stole the money, but I ended up giving it back, and extra, and apologizing, and they forgave me, and now we are friends. The guilt in a sense, can be transformed into something positive, a learning experience. This type of shame goes much deeper than the shame you describe. Well the shame one person feels could be different or deeper from the next. I was glancing through that PDF that was posted, after my last post, and found this, which in a way echo's (or I echo'd it even having not read it) - but it follows the same thought process for shame vs guilt: "A person with guilt might say, 'I feel awful seeing that I did something which violated my values.' Or the guilty person might say, 'I feel sorry about the consequences of my behaviors.' In so doing the person's values are reaffirmed The possibility of repair exists and learning and growth are promoted. While guilt is a painful feeling of regret and responsibility for one's actions, shame is a painful feeling about oneself as a person. The possibility for repair seems foreclosed to the shameful person because shame is a matter of identity . . . not of behavioral infraction. There is nothing to be learned from it and no growth is opened by the experience because it only confirms one's negative feelings about oneself." Shame for me personally seems more inescapable, and when one is faced with a feeling, a terrible feeling which cannot be fixed, and will not go away, what can one do but run? It isn't about a personal level, it is about the concept of core shame. Toxic shame. Shame as the core of your being. That is much much deeper shame than "I felt ashamed because I didn't bring the library book back in time". Title: Re: The shame explained? Post by: GoingBack2OC on April 22, 2016, 06:12:12 PM Can someone assist in explaining the 'the shame' (both childhood and adult) that is referred to? As a non, I'm not sure I understand. It seems the shame plays such a pivotal point. Quote from the best article ever written "engulfment also means loss of control, annihilation fantasies and shame. Shame activates the punitive parent that resides in their inner world, their psyche. The attachment failure has now become shame based for the Borderline. It will soon become guilt driven for the lonely child" I have only glanced over the first 20 pages or so but I know the writer Onceremoved mentioned is in the book somewhere too, so I'm hoping this will might help. I wanted some more insight myself too. www.creativegrowth.com/bradshaw_shame%201.pdf I think it has do deal with the fact that the abandoned child feels shame, which is an emotion that speaks to me of "walking away", "hiding", "running". And the guilt, the lonely child feels, is based on failure. Failure to understand. Failure to be able to reach the other person. To help. The lonely child wants nothing more than to hold, and be held. And has as a result of the abandoned child's shame, and detachment from the lonely child, guilt is an initial emotion the lonely child feels- they could have done more, held closer, loved better. For me, shame does not go away, or at least not as easily as guilt. If you are ashamed... .of an action you took. Will anything ever erase the shame? Even repentance? Even if you are forgiven, will you still feel shame? Guilt, on the other hand, one can make good on. One can do their time. They can make amends, it's repairable. I felt guilty that I stole the money, but I ended up giving it back, and extra, and apologizing, and they forgave me, and now we are friends. The guilt in a sense, can be transformed into something positive, a learning experience. This type of shame goes much deeper than the shame you describe. Well the shame one person feels could be different or deeper from the next. I was glancing through that PDF that was posted, after my last post, and found this, which in a way echo's (or I echo'd it even having not read it) - but it follows the same thought process for shame vs guilt: "A person with guilt might say, 'I feel awful seeing that I did something which violated my values.' Or the guilty person might say, 'I feel sorry about the consequences of my behaviors.' In so doing the person's values are reaffirmed The possibility of repair exists and learning and growth are promoted. While guilt is a painful feeling of regret and responsibility for one's actions, shame is a painful feeling about oneself as a person. The possibility for repair seems foreclosed to the shameful person because shame is a matter of identity . . . not of behavioral infraction. There is nothing to be learned from it and no growth is opened by the experience because it only confirms one's negative feelings about oneself." Shame for me personally seems more inescapable, and when one is faced with a feeling, a terrible feeling which cannot be fixed, and will not go away, what can one do but run? It isn't about a personal level, it is about the concept of core shame. Toxic shame. Shame as the core of your being. That is much much deeper shame than "I felt ashamed because I didn't bring the library book back in time". I would file not returning the book on time under guilt. But I agree, toxic shame vs healthy shame is a complex subject. Healthy shame accepts it will happen- before hand. I will make mistakes in life. Toxic Shame I would think is more along the lines of hopelessness, I am worthless, I should just die. |