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I read on another post today that if a person is an emotional con artist then this would have a very different implication for recovery. Can someone please tell me what this means?

I’m in a deep, deep hole at the moment. Like many people here I’ve lost a lot, career, self-respect, the lot. I have been abused and have debilitating depression, but there’s still some of me left and for the first time in over two years I want to try to get out of this misery.

One of the first things I’d like to do is try to work out if my ex meant to hurt me the way he did or is this a futile endeavour?

It seems to me that much of his behaviour fits the profile for BPD, but then again he also fits the profile for NPD. My therapist is convinced that he knows exactly what he is doing and is a very clever/cunning manipulator who purposefully chooses to hurt me.

For example, his favourite ‘game’ seems to be push/pull. He’d pull me in, drop me on my head, sit back and coldly watch my reaction, tears seemed to be his favourite response, although he liked anger too. I’d go as far as to call it sadistic, but if he couldn't help it then maybe I was wrong.

E.g. we’d break-up, he’d desperately want me to come back, I’d agree to talk, feeling hopeful because I love him, then suddenly (sometimes in minutes) he’d tell me that we couldn’t work, or he’s going to move alone to another state or something similar.  This went on throughout the two-year relationship and I am not exaggerating when I say that, along with the anger, rages, devaluing, etc, it almost destroyed me. I never felt safe, was always on shaky ground.

The last time I allowed him to do this to me was a week or so ago. Despite me ending it 4 months ago, he continued to contact me, almost every day trying different approaches to engage me. Last week he rang declaring undying love and concern for me, wanting to support me (my mother is seriously ill). I took this to mean he maybe wanted to get back together so despite the push/pull history I said yes to talking only for him to immediately pull the rug from under me again saying it wouldn’t work. It sounds like I was a desperate fool who doesn't learn and maybe I am, but I was desperately upset about my mum. A big part of me was hoping that he meant it, because I really need someone right now, but I was aware that he could do this again and in the back of my mind I knew if he did then I would finally, finally, be done.

The pain this caused was immense and this was the last straw. I am done.

Now I’m left with some questions. Was this deliberate? Is my therapist correct? Was it out of his control? Did he know that this would cause me pain? Does this fit into BPD psychopathology? If it doesn’t what are the implications for my recovery? Could anyone enlighten me please?

It's very painful what they do. It's hard to say if they mean to. NPD seems, to me, this is my option only more relentless, heartless, and cruel then what I've learned about BPD. My ex seems to be a bottomless pit of evil. I wish I could help you more. They are incapable of empathy. Your ex probably has no source to plunder right now so your going to be the old faithful.  You have to try and stop trying to figure them out. It a such a complex illness. I can tell you, the longer they are gone from your life, the better it gets. This only happened with no contact. And be prepared when there do find a new source, you will definitely be less than nothing, you will be confused and hurt right through the heart. They seem to find a new level of ruthless. I'm almost a year with the npd / BPD out of my life. It does get better. But the pain does come back. On Sunday I dropped s9 back to his mother and her ability to not say a word and make you feel like less than nothing can still hurt. I was in a bad depression until Monday evening. It's a hard field to plow but what grows out of it will be something wonderful. You will blossom.

   

Hi Larmoyant,

I am very sorry to hear about your mom's illness.  Stressful times like these make it even harder to cope and stay strong. You wanting to have someone around to support you is very understandable and normal. Do you have any other family or friends that can help during this time?


I can really understand you wanting the answer to this question. I think for most of us, it does make a difference in how we react and feel about what happened. But I do think it could end up a futile endeavor, because regardless if your ex meant to hurt you or not, the fact is that the behavior DID hurt you. And now you are left with your feelings and how you are going to deal with the situation. Unfortunately, no one can get inside your ex's head and explain his motivations, but you can get inside your heart and do your best to take care of yourself and your mom. 

It sounds like your ex didn't display much empathy when you were hurting. I can totally understand why you felt so unsafe and shaky. I think it's important to take a time out, away from the relationship, in order to come back into physical, mental, and emotional balance. So many of us are hyperaware of others' feelings to begin with (from our FOO)—then when we get into a relationship with someone who is displaying these kinds of behaviors, we react like Pavlov's dogs. At least that is what I feel happened to me. I needed time to recenter and really be with myself again. There had been far too much focus on my partner and his behaviors/needs/wants.

What are your values around relationships, Larmoyant? What is really important to you?  Hold onto that, and focus on that. Life is too short to compromise on what really matters to you.

Blessings to you and your mom 

heartandwhole

Thank you Bus Boy & Heartandwhole. I’ve been trying to work this all out for the best part of two years and it’s beyond me. It’s beaten me. I just can’t get my head around all the confusion, his apparent need for chaos and the sheer cruelty. The rage and the push/pull was literally soul destroying. I keep wanting to give him the benefit of the doubt, you know BPD and he can’t help it, but really, looking back, he did know what he was doing. I know he did. I have the memories and scars to prove it. I suppose I just want to feel that he did love me in some way, that some of it wasn’t his fault and I wasn’t just an emotional punching bag for him to release all of his negativity. It’s so sad, that someone feels so hurt that they want you to hurt too.

Busboy,as for a new source, he already has someone, despite continuing to pursue me and not giving me a straight answer, and that’s incredibly painful. Instead of trying to resolve our issues (my issues, my fault, of course) he went and found someone else. The thought of it is heartbreaking. I couldn’t be with another person right now if my life depended on it. I loved this man.

I will hold on to the idea that this will all get better and try to rebuild my life, but it’s hard to know where to start. Heartandwhole, I’ve become quite isolated in my misery and he scared off many people, my beloved sister for one. I’m pretty much alone with all this and it’s difficult. I’ve literally got to rebuild my life from the ground up. Working out what my values are seems a good place to start. Thank you for your blessings about my mum. It’s really because of her that I’ve managed to free myself. She needs me and I had to dig deep.

Of course it has. The most experienced and learned psychiatrists hardly know how to deal with people with a PD.


It's not an apparent need for chaos. It is a NEED for chaos. Chaos makes him feel alive.


Everything you say is true. Maybe that is so difficult for you to accept and wrap your head around. Because just as people with BPD we like to divide the world into nice and easy black and white: if you know what you're doing you're bad, if you can't help yourself you're not as bad, beautiful people can't be evil, the ugly man must be the creepy one, love always wins, evil always looses, and so on. Look at any film and all of these elements are there. The hero is handsome, the evil genius looks like a hunchback, the hero stands for good, he wins in the end and of course he wins the pretty girl too. They ride into the sunset. The end.

And real life is nothing like that.

Whether your ex has BPD, NPD or a mix of the two, he can't help that. He didn't ask for either at birth.

PwBPD do not know how to control their impulses. So if they feel they hurt they can lash out so you hurt too, yes. Or they lash out because they realise they love you and they can't handle that feeling. Before they fully comprehend how wrong it is what they have done to you they push that realization away again as otherwise core shame would set in and they would feel they are going to die. But that pushing away, and the denial of you confront them doesn't mean that at some level they don't realize what they are doing is hurtful.

My ex fully knew what he was doing, what he set others up to do, was hurtful to me. And I could see he enjoyed I was getting hurt. Perhaps it was about me, about the so called wrongs I did to him in his head (that never really happened), perhaps it was about other people that had hurt him and I was just a representation for the hurt done to him by them, perhaps I was just a way to alleviate pain that life had brought to him, I don't know and never will. But he did enjoy it.

PwBPD (and other PDs as well as far as I know) always love with every fiber of their being. Everyone the fall in love with is going to be their saviour. THE ONE. The one to solve everything. No more pain, no more inner turmoil. Because at the early stages when they are so head over heals in love they don't feel that pain. So you must be the solution. Until the high wears off. And the pain returns. And it turns out you are not THE ONE. And the rage over that fact alone (you have fooled them in believing you were the one! You liar!) is mindblowing.

The ones closest to a person with a PD are the ones that turn into the emotional punching bags. People that know them less well would never believe us if we told what happened behind closed doors. Then they are the charming version shown to colleagues and people standing further off.

Where you just a emotional punching bag? No. He loved you. Granted it's not an adult love. They fall for you within minutes or hours on an instinctual level not because they know you and like your personality. It's more infatuation as it cannot last or deepen, issues cannot be worked on, there is no question ever of responsibility or accountability. But it's what he knows love to be.

And you became his emotional punching bag not despite him loving you but because he loved you. The people he doesn't care about, that he doesn't let close, those never see beyond the charming mask and those never become the emotional punching bag.

Not that it's any honour to be an emotional punching bag... .We have learned that...

But to answer your questions: he can't help being mentally ill, he (at some level) knew what he was doing was hurtful, he did love you, not being able to control his impulses is not his fault and you were his emotional punchbag because he loved you.


To be able to resolve relationship issues a person needs to be able to take responsibility and be self reflective. Expecting a pwBPD to try and resolve relationship issues therefore is expecting the impossible.


It will get better.

Focus on your mum for now and discovering what your values are.

its hard to get our mind around this disorder. we often feel used. deliberately deceived. suckered.

there are con artists and predators out there, of course, who set out, deliberately, consciously, maliciously, to use people to their benefit. that doesnt generally fit the profile of someone with BPD, who is childlike, impulsive, and desperately wants to love and be loved.

its not easy, especially in the early stages, to know where to draw the line. it would be dehumanizing for me to tell you that a person with BPD is incapable of deliberately hurting someone, or lying, or calculating.

in your case, the push/pull you describe, asking to get back together than telling you it cant work, is plenty common for someone with BPD, but by the nature of the disorder, he probably sincerely means both, at the different times he says them. intimacy is a trigger. he may long for you one moment, and then, faced with you, the reality of the relationship, and his own inner shame, it becomes overwhelming and painful. people with BPD are also stimulated by our reactions (in your case tears or anger). they may go to lengths to provoke those reactions.

but to try to put it in simpler terms: to say the entirety of our relationship(s) was a con game, that we stupidly and blindly fell for, that we were used by someone deliberately trying to deceive us, that none of it was ever real, would have a different implication for healing as opposed to a seriously mentally ill person, who, while they hurt us deeply, possibly even deliberately sometimes, desperately wanted for us to be their savior, and solution to all of their problems, which though sincere, was unsustainable.

both are extremely painful realities, with key differences.

hope that helps.

It might help you to remember that your ex probably has the emotional maturity of a very young child.  The push/pull dynamic is very common in little children who are just learning to be separate from their mothers.  This may be where your ex is in terms of emotional development.  A little child needs its mother close for safety and reassurance, but it also needs to be able to push her away in order to feel a sense of independent identity.  An adult trapped in this phase of emotional development is essentially doomed to do the same thing.  It is not an intentional plan, where the person sets out from the beginning saying, "I think I will ask her to come back, then dash all of her hopes."  As others have said, that behavior is characteristic of NPD or AsPD, but not BPD.  Unless your ex has a firm diagnosis from a professional, we are venturing into speculation.

Consider how children under the age of 5 treat their toys.  One minute it is the most interesting thing in the world, and the next minute it is forgotten in the lawn during a thunderstorm.  That is another facet of emotional immaturity. 

As others have said, you will probably be better off in the long run if you learn to see this person's tendency to hurt you as the deal breaker, rather than basing your opinion of them on malicious intentions.  Seeing the cycle for what it is makes you less vulnerable for being hurt in the future, even if your ex appears to come around or change.  People who get stuck in their emotional development need very serious therapy to overcome this, and it won't happen in weeks or months.  Some of them will never overcome it.  It is not as if having "good intentions" means that there is potential for a healthy relationship with this person.  As others have said, you need to prioritize taking care of yourself and avoiding hurt, no matter the underlying cause.

I've wrestled with this too, because I felt my ex often was very much in control of his behavior. For instance, treating me kindly in public and then waiting behind closed doors to explode. As a matter of fact all his abuse was away from his social group. To the outside he presents as the nicest guy in the world. Behind closed doors it is completely different, awful, crazy-making and cruel.

But as others have said, I don't think he wakes up in the morning and thinks, "gee, today would be a nice day to hurt someone! Whatever shall I cook up?" and then rub his hands together in evil glee.

The truth is most people who do bad things do not plan them so consciously. They often believe they are doing good things, or defending themselves, or are justified in some way. I work in criminal justice and my experience is it is lack of self-awareness that leads most people to commit harm.

It's really hard when we feel our loved ones are plotting to hurt us. I know I felt that way at times. But I think mostly his plot was to get his way. If his way meant expressing anger in cruel fashion, then that was what he wanted (feelings = facts) If his way was to win me back so he had a relationship, then that was how he acted. As Greeneyedmonster says, it's like dealing with a very young child. Someone without any conscience development. They have no pause button between their feeling and their action. If they want a cookie and you are standing in the way, watch out. Only these are adult children with a lot more skills than toddlers. That's when you see the cunning.

One thing that is hard to do is remember this isn't all about you. His behavior is about him, and he will probably continue with it regardless of whether you are in the picture. That may help you see that his intent was not about *you* but about how he behaves in his life, and he is probably blind to his own behavior and why he acts the way he does.

Great post ( in that it chimes with my thinking at times) with helpful responses. Best wishes

Specific of each BPD consists of the structure of his main character. That is why many of them could be BPD: NP, hysteric, schizoid ,paranoid. Also a mix of hysteric and NP , and any others mixes. The fact is that each of them is able to organize a personal hell for all close to them people.

All of your responses have been incredibly helpful and given me so much to think about. I can’t thank you enough.

Looking back, I’m sure there were times when he purposefully chose to hurt me, but there may have been times when he may not have meant to. I’m starting to get a grip on concepts such as feelings equals facts and his emotional immaturity that might explain some of it.

I suppose whether he meant to hurt me or not isn’t the important part because regardless of his intentions the outcome was terrible and emotionally destructive. The message I’ve received is I have to start protecting myself.

He broke his silence last night and sent me this text with a love song attached. One of ‘our’ songs. I’m trying to use my new found knowledge/understanding of his behaviour to make sense of it, but it’s difficult.

Him: “This just came on the radio. Remember then? I’m not trying to contact. How?”

I’m presuming he means ‘how did we end up apart’, but I might be wrong. All I really know is how it’s affected me and it’s not good. It raises questions. Does he want to talk? Does he miss me? Does he want to come back? Is he playing with my feelings again?

1.   I feel sad because the song represented what I wanted so much, and it triggers thoughts of us being together. I’m convinced he knows this.

2.   It also triggers what has become my downfall, HOPE. Futile hope that we can get together, discuss the issues and make it work.

3.   I’m also feeling quite a lot of fear. Fear of rejection again, e.g. if this opens up discussion between us I’m now terrified that push/pull will play out again and not sure how much I can take anymore. I need to start protecting myself.

Taking on board what I’ve read his intention isn’t to hurt me, but reflects his feelings at the moment he wrote the text. The word ‘confused’ comes to mind.  Not straight forward. Maybe this is where the push/pull comes in. He’s always confused and that in turn makes me confused! Or, maybe he’s hesitant because I lost my temper last time. Told him I just could not take the come here/go away anymore.

I gave it some thought, and responded to his text with a simply “How?”. Hoping that he’ll come back and explain what he meant. ‘Hope’ made me answer. ‘Fear’ stopped me from elaborating, stopped me from asking for an explanation because I tried that last time. Tried to get a straight answer and got ‘I love you. I'm here for you. Forever, but we won’t work’.  Hope and fear.

Could someone please help me unravel some of this. Is his text push/pull? Does he want me or not?

Yes his texts are pull/push. Pull is the song, the memories, the implied "how did we end up like this?", the "I love you". The push is "but we won't work".

Does he want you? I would say there are four possible answers:

1) yes because he does love you to the best of his BPD abilities but he is having a lucid moment and realizes it can't work; he always hurts people, ffffs up relationships, the combination with you hasn't worked out, that kind of conclusion.

2) yes and no. Yes because he does love you to the best of his BPD abilities so he pulls you in. No because your love and his feelings for you scare him too; you might either abandon him or engulf him so he immediately pushes you away again.

3) no he wants to have control over you (and control is a big factor in love for many if not all BPD IMO perhaps even to the point of confusing the 2 sometimes) and wanted to see if he could still get a reaction from you "let's pull her in, see what happens" (but not thought out on such a conscious level) and therefore is still in control.

4) a combination of 1, 2 and/or 3

My ex did a similar thing. He prepared me for a recycle, I took the bait in so far that I said "still in love but it needs to be different this time round if there is going to be a second time round" and then he backed out by saying he shouldn't confuse me and he could never have a relationship. Because what we broke off the week before was what... ? And the following week he told someone else it was time to find himself a new girlfriend... (which he didn't, it was meant to check if that person spoke to me and if he could hurt me). Of course in actual fact it was a lucid moment because he is totally incapable of having a relationship.

Actually my ex did the love song thing too via email. But a group email. Very much meant to hurt me so I never responded. He was going on a holiday for a few weeks after the email so I was actually in a really good mood, love song BS or not  *)

Hi WB, I like reading your posts. It’s difficult trying to understand why they pull you in only to push you away, but I’m starting to get it. They may well be confused and ruled by their emotions, but the confusion it causes in my (our) own mind is dreadful.

When I think about his latest text in terms of control it makes me mad and I wish I hadn’t responded at all, but I seem compelled to keep responding. He hasn’t got back to me yet which is typical. Maybe he does just want to see that I’m still around. That he can still get a response. This makes me feel deflated. 

I seem stuck. How did you stop yourself responding to your ex? They sound so similar.

As for the love songs. Most of the ones he used to send me were about breaking up! Right from the very beginning. I eventually called him out on it and the song choices got happier, at least during the ‘on’ moments. I think he likes to live his life through stupid love songs. I’m not a fan anymore. Also, he was likely drunk when he sent it.

Thank you  *)

It's worse than confusion for them I'm afraid; it's an emotional contradictory vortex 24/7. But yes, for us it is impossible to keep up and to react appropriately because you just don't know what the feeling at that particular moment is. Besides, you can't build a relationship on fleeting moments.


It doesn't have to be what goes on in his mind but it certainly is one of the options. The silence afterwards is always very telling as if they got what they wanted (narcisstic supply) and can relax again. Looking at him is pointless though: you can't look inside his mind, if you were able to you would probably instantly get lost, if you could look inside his head 5 minutes later it would look different, and he won't change anyway. Look at you: why do you feel compelled to respond?


It took me about a month I think after we broke up to stop texting/responding.

I realized it was pointless. There was me giving and giving and giving even if it was by responding because I was hoping to get 1) more than the crumbs he was sending and 2) crumbs that didn't contradict.

But it wasn't going to happen. He is who he is. If he would have been able to be a balanced person it would have happened already. If he was able or willing to invest in me or us he would have done so. So I suddenly stopped. My last text after our last conversation (not a good one) was partially confrontational partially friendly. I just read it again after I sent it and thought "what the h*ll am I doing?" I woke up. He never texted me again, I never did either. He is probably partially NPD or too proud to reach out by phone again (although I know he has not deleted or blocked my number). I think he did try to reach out in a different way, setting up a blog where he wrote about me when he was in full narcisstic collapse. Probably to see if I was checking up on him in finding this blog, to lure me out with sad poems and love songs, to push me away again if I responded as he could say "I never reached out to you" "I didn't mention your name, who says these poems were about you?", to get narcisstic supply as he was lonely, to punish me for things I never did and only happened in his head, to humiliate me again, to seduce me again, to make me grovel and say "but I never meant abc I meant xyz and I love you so much". I never responded. I am not a puppet.


Of course they are about breaking up; pwBPD are in essence unhappy people. So they are drawn to unhappy music. None of them have ever had a truly successful relationship. So they are drawn to breakup songs. PwBPD love very intensely and feel the breakup very intensely too. The sadder the breakup song the better it describes how they feel.

My ex is to put it mildly a very melancholic man. He comes from a culture where love songs are melancholic. So the love songs he sang to me and sent me were... .yes, melancholic breakup songs...

A yes, alcohol... .A 'wonderful' way to suppress your internal emotional vortex so you can have some peace and quiet. Until you wake up and have a vortex plus a hangover...

I swear my exgf deliberately tried hurting me because of the cruilty of her choice of words, I did see the times she said things on impulse and looking back I understand that behaviour, I attributed it to her being brutally honest. Wow I think she's honest? No wonder I was so confused.

Do they change? Can they change? Or are they the proverbial leopard trying to change it's spots?

My exgf is low functioning I was told in these forums.

Do they mean to hurt you?

Yes.

It's very much like a "lie by omission".  Where someone lies by "not" telling you something. My ex was notorious for this behavior.

So when you look at it like that. Replace "hurt" with "lie" (by omission); it breaks down as:  Do they intentionally not hurt us?

I think a better question to ask when considering a partner in the future:  Do I feel this is a person who "would" hurt me, on purpose, deliberately.  I think people fall into two groups. Those who would, and those who wouldn't.

We all deserve people who wouldn't hurt us "on purpose".

My ex like yours did the same thing. Push / pull. One day she wanted me the next day or hours later didn't. Then it was strange. She would talk about us and our future and then the next day I would talk to her and she would speak like we weren't even together! Anyone else have this with their ex?

I remember cooking her an amazing supper one night, went the whole 9 yards got everything she liked. Seemed elated that same evening, thanking me for treating her special. We spoke about our future (marriage, home, children) Next morning I woke up to a look of disgust. She was visibly irritated and in a hurry to leave.

Later that day she apologized for waking up cranky, and that my bed was to blame. Said she was in a hurry, and upset that I didn't wake her? That led to me being called selfish, and only interested in sex from her. Push/pull 101, get to close and they sabotage.

During the relationship it's about control, and breaking down your self esteem, so that you will be dependent on them and only them. Once solidly hooked, they believe that they are entitled to do as they please and if that hurts us so be it. In the devalue stage they work up their anger towards us, paint us black and then proceed to dish out the hate that they believe we deserve.

Push/pull 101, get to close and they sabotage.

No. I don't think they want to hurt you. I think they feel we are the root of their issues and want to get rid of us. Some eventually see the error in their ways and realize it wasn't our fault they were unhappy. Not that it makes it any easier.

I think lying by omission is another form of control and I can relate to that. As for push/pull, it has terrible emotional consequences. Not knowing if you’re coming or going.

The beginning of the end for me was when he asked me to marry him and the very next day told me not to tell anyone and he then moved in his adult daughter who he said dislikes me. Sabotage. None of it ever made any sense. One time I woke up to find a pillow in between us and when my foot brushed his he acted as if I’d given him an electric shock yet he'd been very loving the night before. The memory of that morning makes me shudder.

His moods switches were very strange. It could happen in minutes sometimes. He would come and pick me up all happy to see me then 10 minutes down the road would be raging at me. My therapist says it was an attempt to control me, wear me down before we went out because of his intense jealousy of other men. It was truly horrific sometimes and I’d be in tears before arriving at our destination having been torn to pieces. Worse, I'd follow him in like a little puppy.Wth was I doing ! I'm still not sure why I didn’t bale out then. It never stopped.   

Does it really matter whether or not they meant to hurt? In some respects it would help me detach more if I knew he meant it, but sometimes, now I know a little more, I can see that it was the outcome of his inner turmoil. That's where I got into trouble. I wanted to help. Thought I could.

YES! Yes! Yes! When myself and my ex were getting closer she would sabatoge us all the time! She would out of the clear blue sky send me texts saying she was not interested anymore after te night before she was so loving! It's was CRAZY!  You just never knew when she would want out again. Then she would be good and I mean Wonderful for like  weeks at a time then... .BOOM! Again she would out of no where pull I don't love you ! This is Not gonna work. When we were fine!  Just a roller coaster!