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Especially if what you are doing is clearly healthy and clearly kind.

This has been a very long road for me to navigate. What I have been doing is trying to figure out what makes me tick. Why I am "afraid" of confrontation.

I have been working on my presentation of issues to come across as clearly healthy and clearly kind. I have tried to stop raising my voice, using foul language when I get frustrated quit using statements like "you always" or "you never".

not to go into the long drawn out details but last week my wife told me I was "yelling" and as God as my witness I did not yell or even raise my voice. She said that she was offended and I told her that if she was offended over that then she had issues that she needed to address as I kindly walked to the other room.

Then later in the evening she asked me if I had heard from any of my kids and I said no but that I did need to discuss with her an issue concerning my D23 who owes us money. I shared with her that after a lot of consideration of the matter and praying about it I felt that not pursuing the debt (about $1400 worth) would be the best way to go for healing of the matter. I told her I wanted to share with her (my wife) the scriptures that I found to back up the decision but then It came out of my wife's mouth "well make sure you refer to the scriptures when you are yelling at me" referring to what she claimed as yelling earlier in the evening.

At that point I remained calm but I continued on with how I had been feeling when it comes to trying to discuss issues concerning my kids or issues that she does not want to discuss. I said that I get tired of keeping all of my concerns to myself as to not upset her. Well then she get this contorted look on her face and says in a really nasty way" well if you are so tired of everything and me why don't you just get the F#&K OUT!"

I was so tempted to say well I may arrange that for you. I got up and said well if you are going to talk to me that way and start in with the profanity then we can't have a discussion. I did say to her that I don't know how we will ever get along if things keep going the way they are. I went to the bedroom for about 5 minutes and collected my thought and then nicely came out and told her I was going to the park for a walk.

My point of all this is that no matter how I present the touchy subjects they usually end up like this OR the outcome is a majorly distorted form of what I was expecting the outcome to be.

Yuck. It descends into a he said, she said about the yelling and there's no way she would ever be convinced that her perception was inaccurate. Good for you that you didn't try to do this.

I've done the refutal with the "you're angry" and when he hasn't believed me, I've become angry.

I'm not sure backing up our decisions with scriptures is the best thing with a pwBPD. It's almost like triangulating with God.

One thing that lots of pwBPD are really good at is the snide comment and I see that your wife can excel here.

I remember trying to have a conversation with my ex-husband about a sensitive topic and suddenly I'd discover that he totally hijacked the conversation and we were discussing something else entirely which usually ended up in me apologizing. I'd walk away from the discussion totally confused at what happened and then realize that we didn't at all discuss what I had intended to bring up.     

we both "share" the same faith so my thought here was that If she knew I was getting directions from our higher power through prayer that she would see it more clearly. I have to admit since that evening she has not mentioned the money situation so I am pretty sure she "accepted" what I shred with her. My wife even reached out to my daughter "extending the olive branch" if you will. She went though a very bad week personally last week and I watched her pull herself out of it by encouraging herself through prayer and asking God to help her. Most of my wife's emotional issues are tied up in her dealing with her son who suffers with paranoid schizophrenia. This really complicates things.

I have not been posing much lately. It has been kind of difficult for me to articulate all the stuff that is going on in our marriage. She's MC right now (one of the one on one sessions)

last week when I went in to MC by myself I just laid it out to the MC because the exercises he was having us do are ok with couples who have a hard time communicating. Our issues go far beyond the scope of what he is trying to do. He is going to ease her into some problematic areas today. Addressing the elephant in the room. Having a grown man with paranoid schizophrenia plopped down in the middle of a marriage that is already dealing with excess baggage. We have a long road ahead.

CAT btw my wife is a horse lover also. That is one of the things she gave up on when her son developed all of his problems. If things work out for us and she is in a better place one day I would love to see her get back on a horse.

I can definitely relate to the yelling accusations. You have my sympathy and understanding. My wife accuses me of exactly the same thing. She is constantly telling me to stop yelling at her when I'm not even raising my voice at all. Anytime I have some sort of issue or discussion that I feel I need to bring up to her, she says I'm yelling at her.

It's the most bizarre thing. I've never known somebody who misinterprets reality in such a warped way. I've told her that we can never have any sort of productive conversation because anytime I try to, she accuses me of yelling at her and she completely shuts down.

I wish I could offer some sort of advice, but just know that you're not alone when it comes to dealing with this sort of weird behavior from your significant other.

Giving your partner the benefit of the doubt is good.

So, your wife does one of those if this is what you think then blah blah blah

Let her  know it sounds hurtful and ask if she intends to hurt you with the words. 

If she ups ante, leave room.

FF

I remember trying to have a conversation with my ex-husband about a sensitive topic and suddenly I'd discover that he totally hijacked the conversation and we were discussing something else entirely which usually ended up in me apologizing. I'd walk away from the discussion totally confused at what happened and then realize that we didn't at all discuss what I had intended to bring up.  huh huh huh

This has happened with me so many times. I would bring up something sensitive that I wanted to discuss, and then end up crying and confused, with the issue not being resolved or considered. I just stopped talking after a while.

Now, if I feel the conversation is getting sidetracked, and I can not get back to the topic, I simply stop talking - it isn't working and I don't know how to continue it. It's not the ST, just realizing this isn't going well.

I agree with Cat in "triangulating with God". For people who think in black and white, God would be seen as your side or my side. For the drama triangle, it brings God in as either Rescuer- of the one invoking God " See God is on my side" or the Persecutor " God is against your side". For religious people- God has a place in the marriage, but not in the drama triangle as a pw BPD could see it.

 

I can see the triangulation thing with God going on with us now.

The other day we were supposed to (as part of homework) work out a conflict over D5.  Wife "corrected me" instead of misbehaving child when I was trying to discipline her.

Wife's emotions got worked up and she started saying that she was not going to be able to make any decisions when I was only trying to focus on one decision, how to discipline our child (ren).

God calls children to obey their parents, that was the issue I was addressing with child when my wife rescued.

It was clear that FFw realized God was against her side, and it was causing distress.  I could also see she got the point.

She was also trying to say that I had undermined her in some way in another incident that I have no recollection of.

What I decided to do was agree "in theory" with her that the way she portrayed how she wanted me to interact with her and children so as not to undermine authority of either parent was a better way than her recollection of things.

She was extremely happy at that point and I figured it was a good place to end things.

We'll come back to D5 in a day or two (perhaps later today), all of this happened few days ago. 

I have no interest in debating the past.  I DO have an interest in putting ideas in there about how to discipline children in the future. 

I see me deciding to quit when she was happy as being the emotional leader, the emotional "alpha" and NOT me being responsible for her feelings.

Kinda like training a horse.  End on good note if you can,    :)

FF

things got sidetracked last night

the conversation began with me asking if I could calmly discuss a subject or convey my feelings on a subject. I will say she she listened. She said nothing negative at this point. Oh I remember how it began... .she said something to the effect about me resenting my step son. I shared with her my perception of how her relation with her son is affecting her whole life. I let her know that I see him as the object of her affections. I told her that I understood but that totally being attached to him is causing her depression. Her happiness depends upon his. No one got upset at this point.

Then I talked about our intimate relationship and the absence of alone time, taking walks together, flirting with each other spending time drinking a cup of coffee in the morning etc to no sex. I mentioned her lack of even having a desire to do these things with me.  I talked about how we have not had sex in over three years. I was letting her know that I was thinking about it during the day and it was stressing me out. There are days it affects me worse when I think about it. The conversation winded down to her letting me know that men and women are different ( no s&%T sherlock!) I didn't say that, like I don't know. THEN she says with women it all starts in the mind (pointing to her head) and with men it's all down here (pointing to her crotch) I said that's it, Im done talking about this!

She then proceeds to tell me oh yeah get up and walk out... I said when you start this crap of telling me that I think with my pecker then I don't have anything else to add. She got mad at me because I was trying to tell her what she said and I was was pointing to my crotch like she did and then she got up out of her chair and got about a foot and 1/2 from my face wit her finger pointing and told me me if I didn't shut up she was going to slap the S&#t out of me.

In the end it was my fault    and I was making everything about me.  She made the statement that with me and her son she is always having to negotiate between the two of us. It's all about control. She told me if I was nice or nicer that she wouldn't feel that way. It's like she wants me to be perfect to offset the grief she gets from her son. If anyone who doesn't know her son lives with us and he has paranoid schiz

I really get so mad at myself. If I make any remark or statement like " I don't see how we will ever be able to get along if things keep going like this" she will say that I am looking for any reason to get a divorce and I say I don't want to get a divorce But I don't want to live like this.

It devolved into me saying I was moving out, then I said no I am just leaving for a few days. It sucks, its like I try and then I say that. I did let her know I have thought about a separation. I think that is when she made the statement about me looking for any reason to get rid of her and her son, that I would love nothing better. 

I did let her know sometimes I think the only reason she stays married to me is because her and her son have a place to live

I think some people would rather sit in the dumpster of their life rather than to crawl out of it.

 

byfaith, has her son ever lived in a group home? Would it be a possibility? Even to test such an arrangement out for a fixed period of time?

 

Byfaith,

If I read your story right, when she started talking about YOUR resentments.  It was time to "pause" the conversation and invite her to ask about your feelings, if she was curious about your feelings.

I have had a hard boundary on that one and it seems to work well for me.  I do give some slack when I can tell that she is "just not thinking" and saying something like that, vice if her emotions are starting to build. 

If emotions building or she is looking for a fight, I am the sole decider of my thoughts and emotions.

Bummer on the rest of it.  You picked up the bait and fought on her level.  She will beat you every time there.

I would stop trying to convince her to have sex with your or that her not having sex with your is bad.  Likely she gets this and has shame.

Since you are in MC I would recommend following MC lead on this.  If he wants you to bring it up, bring it up. 

FF

Having her son live with you is a no win situation for the relationship between the two of you. She may think she's being kind to her son, but the way I see it, there's no hope of improvement for him the way things are now. And certainly little chance of your relationship with your wife getting better.

In college I worked at a Day Treatment Center for people with psychiatric illnesses that was connected to the local hospital. My experience with schizophrenics was noticing how few were compliant with taking their meds (every day I would pick up pills they had spit out) though I imagine meds have improved in recent years. I felt like we were just a daycare center, though we did group therapy everyday.

This is a really rough situation with little reward for either you or your wife. In your situation, I doubt if I could stay more than a day. Something needs to change and the most logical part is figuring out a different situation for her son. He would probably be a lot happier with people his own age. And maybe your wife could get back into horses.  :) Horses are wonderful therapists. They've gotten me through the stress of housebuilding and living with a pwBPD! *)

Even better if you can find a true equine therapy place.  I have talked to some of them, and it is absolutely amazing the work they do and how the "pair up" horses and the person in therapy.

This one guy was telling me about a runaway teenager that showed up for equine therapy.  He matched her up with a horse that was a bit on the tough side to "catch".  The girl learning to catch the horse helped her work through the reasons that she felt she needed to "run".

No idea how equine therapy would apply to the son or more serious mental issues.

FF

Reading this, it seems you calmly expressed a need for the physical and emotional side of your marriage. She dismissed it with an insulting remark about your crotch. You didn't demand she take care of your crotch. You asked for affection, flirting, intimate time together and sex.

She dismissed it, made that comment, then I think the conversation deteriorated from there. She put you on the defensive ( you guys and your crotch- Persecutor) and she became the victim ( I think with my head, and you are just driven by your crotch) and the conversation went from there.

Although she has a history of abuse, sex isn't a victim thing. She isn't the victim of your crotch desires.

You married her. You want affection, intimacy, sex. You aren't all about your crotch, and you don't need to defend that. If you were, there are a whole lot of ways to take care of that without marrying her and living with her son.

But you married her because you wanted a marriage with her. The question is, does she want that too? If not, then you need to decide if you want a marriage without affection, intimacy or sex.

if this is what you are referring to

she made the statement " I think you resent (stepson), I know I resent him so I know you have to you are not even his mother" She wasn't telling me how I felt she was assuming but her assumptions were right. I explained my feelings towards him. At times I have negative feelings towards him when I don't want to be around him. He has a delusion I accused him of being a child molester and that is why he being "watched" it my fault he is what he is, in his words. He tries to get me to admit it. I just get away from him when this gets intense in his mind. I did share my feelings on this


I was sharing how this is making me feel, I don't try to convince her to have sex with me.

no empathy on her part, in her mind as long as she performs a service of hand jobs and letting me feel her boobs then it's all good and I should take what I get. (no I didn't talk to her this way)

I gett bummed out when I know she is on two anti depressents and they are killing her sex drive but she is STILL depressed and she wants or needs more. ( keep that to myself also)

Does it make sense that this is the question, byfaith? It sure does to me, from reading your posts.

Did you at one point mention that your wife has been married and divorced five times before? (Many apologies if I've got that wrong.) There are some statistics available on the success rate of third marriages (about 13%, possibly?). Beyond that, an enduring marriage appears to be even less likely.

Like CatFamiliar, I think the situation with the son, if it continues as it is presently, just sinks the ship right there. And the environment for the son is probably tough too. You mentioned that it is difficult to have him in the house because he paces. Unfortunately, pacing is often a need of people with schizophrenia. It's healthy for him to be able to have that release on a continuing basis, in my opinion. There's a group home for adult males in my neighborhood, which is a pretty walkable area, and you see a few of the guys out walking briskly all throughout the day. That's a good thing.

(And, just to validate your experience with the son, I would also say that more than a few adult males with paranoid schizophrenia will feel that a family member is "accusing" them of being a child molester. Probably just because that's one of the worst accusations to make against a man in our society or any society. So it sparks their fears.)

You expressed a reasonable desire and need, and she made it wrong. I guess you have to decide whether it is wrong or not. If you feel it is something sinful or ashamed of, then she will trigger that. However, if you see sex and affection as a healthy and good aspect of marriage, and she doesn't- then that is something to decide on.

You can't make her want to have sex with you. You asked, she made a crotch statement. She did not express desire to be intimate with you. You can't control what she wants. The decision is up to you- accept a that sex isn't going to happen in your marriage- or at least not in the immediate future- and that it may not happen at all. Or that you don't want a marriage without it.

KateCat

good memory |iiii yes she was married five times previously, I know the stats do not favor us

Yes he paces horribly, he hovers, etc. Is the group home nice? My wife has an issue with discussing letting him live in a home. Like CatFamiliar, I think the situation with the son, if it continues as it is presently, just sinks the ship right there. I have spoken with our MC about this and he does not see any good coming out of this situation. We are supposed to go and deal with this together in MC.

The decision is up to you- accept a that sex isn't going to happen in your marriage- or at least not in the immediate future- and that it may not happen at all. Or that you don't want a marriage without it. I just have to gauge this and realize where my breaking point is. From past history it doesn't appear that she is going to get real help for this  sigh!

I believe the group home in my neighborhood must be a good one. (But I'm not a parent and don't know much about these facilities.) There are some long term residents there, and a few who come and go quickly. One day when walking I crossed paths with a new resident, and he appeared to be having a psychotic episode that resulted in him shouting and threatening passersby. He was gone very soon after that, so I took that as a sign that this particular group home is on the alert for everyone's safety (including other residents).

Not an easy thing to place mentally ill adult males in good housing. But I applaud your marriage counselor for thinking that exploring options is pretty important for you, your wife, her son, and your marriage.

If your stepson can get into a stable situation with highly predictable routines, that might be ideal.

Does he have a father in his life, or does decision-making for him reside solely with his mother?

ADDED: One more thought I have about adult group homes. In the United States the network of such homes may be expanding pretty quickly. One reason I've heard is that Down syndrome individuals, in particular, are now living much longer than the fifty years or so that used to be the limit of their expected lifespans. So a large population of vulnerable adult children can now be expected to outlive their caretaker parents, at least by a few years. Parents have the need to know their children will be safe when they are gone. Hence the great importance of adult group homes and the greater willingness of society to fund them.

Byfaith,

 

I see two trains of thought that you need to keep "running down the tracks".

What can I do?

What can I hope my wife will do?  Basically putting appropriate pressure on her to change, but realizing she may not.

We could rephrase the title of the thread.  Who is in charge of byfaiths emotions? 

Dude, you are attempting to climb a big mountain here.  I am rooting for you.  Focus most of your energy on you.

FF

Here's a different thought. Perhaps your wife is avoiding intimacy and using her son as a shield.

We know that pwBPD have difficulty with intimacy, which is ironic because they are so intimate so fast in the beginning to hook us.

But with five marriages, you have to wonder how four of them crashed and burned. (I'm wife #4. I bought into the "everybody has betrayed me" line. I think it was largely true, but there obviously was a reason for that. lol)

I think this is almost certainly true. The five previous husbands may have had experiences that didn't differ a lot from yours.

Your wife may be experiencing particular stress these days if she feels she knows exactly where marriage #6 is heading. It's tough for everyone concerned.

 

There is hope here.

It is likely that the 4 or 5 (are you husband number 6?) previous guys did NOT respond "properly". 

Proper response does not guarantee an outcome, but an improper response makes it more likely that dysfunction will continue.

What do you know (for a fact) about the previous marriages and how does that compare to what you have been told or led to believe.

FF

I agree with formflier that with everything you are learning and doing differently, your outcome could be different. You are a very generous guy to make these extraordinary efforts. 

Maybe I'm the skeptic here, but the idea that somehow you will be the "one" to make this better may play into some rescuer tendencies. If she presents things as " they all failed me" that is victim perspective.

When a relationship fails, it is more often the result of the interactions between both people. But I think one has to also consider the idea of "fail". Did all these guys "fail" to respond properly or did they try all they could try and then realize that, for their own sanity, they needed to leave. That would not be a fail, but a realization that for their own mental well being they could not remain in the situation.

I am not suggesting what you should do. However, I think people make the best decision they can at the time, and that neither one is necessarily that they didn't know how to make a proper response, or that somehow they didn't do something right.

Numerous marriages seem to indicate that there's something amiss with an individual. It's one thing to date many people, but when you go to the trouble of making a commitment that is difficult to undo, that counts as evidence. (I wish I had paid more attention to this detail when I was in the throes of being totally smitten, but I only listened to the cover story and didn't try to evaluate it from the other side--not that I could unless I had interviewed his past partners, but a little healthy skepticism would have likely informed me that there was a major red flag waving in my face.)

That being said, here we are: you're number 5 and I'm number 4 and how do we make the best of things since neither of us seems willing to divorce?

Given that pwBPD have abandonment issues, we do have an angle that we can use judiciously. For me, it involves my willingness to draw limits and put up boundaries. I like the term "limits" because it's a bit more negotiable than boundaries.

I am now limiting my exposure to unkind conversations and criticisms and projections. It is causing some extinction bursts but I'm just not willing to play some of these games any more where I'm belittled for ridiculous things.

In your case, you might need to draw a much harsher line about her son. Locks on the bedroom door. Son lives elsewhere. Only you know what you're willing to endure. My feeling is that if you don't make some change soon, your relationship is likely doomed.

I'm still under the impression that you are #6, and even Elizabeth Taylor ran out of steam after marrying seven different men (two of her eight marriages were to Richard Burton).

You may be a little bit more in the driver's seat than previous husbands were. You've learned about what you're facing, psychologically speaking, and your wife may realize she's got fewer options than she had in times past.

Why I think Cat Familiar's boundaries listed above are good things to try is that they could be the healthiest option for all parties concerned. And they might be the lines in the sand that will help you make a reasoned choice. It's great if a marriage counselor helps you with these boundaries, as your wife may not be able to see them as reasonable. 

KateCat and Catfam... .Yes to all you stated here. It seems like it is taking me so much time to do all of these things exactly like I want to or envision

FF you stated We could rephrase the title of the thread.  Who is in charge of byfaiths emotions?   that is what I struggle with. I have a hard time letting some things roll off my back. It may have been thursday night or friday night but she got mad at me and called me by the name of her last ex husband and she also called me a one-eyed ass. ( if anyone is laughing about the last name hold up)  OK this is why she called me these things. At one point she told me again to move my ass out of the house. I sat there on the couch and thought about it. I have never told her hey Im not the one who needs to leave. I went back and said " you are the one who needs to leave, this is my house" ( I know not cool) She has said in times past how much this house belonged to her. anyway she said that is what her last husband would say to her. (i am blind in one eye) you wouldn't know it by looking at me but her last husband also was blind in one eye. I have NEVER called her my ex wife name or even made a comparison to my ex wife ( unless it was one where my wife came out looking better)  the point being it hurt me and made me mad that she called me that.  She also told me she would call the police on me ( I swear I cannot remember why she said it) I just don't think she liked my tone.

the next day I told her how the name calling upset me (bothered me) she justified it and never apologized. By bringing up the name calling incident she also claimed I was trying to begin a fight ( I wasn't)

we also got into it again on friday night concerning her son. he came upstairs and wanted to talk to her in the other room. as they were in the other room I got up and went out on the porch just to walk around and relieve some stress. Anyway she came out from talking to him and asked me if I had gone out on the porch. I said yes and she asked me why. I said to just go out on the porch. she basically reprimanded me for going out on the porch because I was stressed out over her son. He wanted to talk to her in private because he was trying to respect my request not to be around me when he was having his delusions concerning me. So in her mind I was being the ass because her son was trying his hardest to be nice about things. I wasn't even being mean to anyone

It's hard to keep control of my emotions but I am doing pretty good. I told her she asks questions in an interrogation style. If I sigh I am asked why i friggin sighed !

In her view when she told me why he was talking to her that he was being the nice one and trying hard and I was being the ass.

BTW we are sleeping with the bedroom door locked at night but that has nothing to do with intimacy. It's for safety reasons.

The last four days have had it's emotional ups and downs but sunday and monday ended on good notes. There have been strides on my wife's part in the area of intimacy also.

 

This thing about her saying she would call the police on me... .even if I wasn't doing "anything" to merit a domestic call, could she call the police and then have the police convinced that I was doing something "wrong" to her? even though I was not. example: her thinking I was yelling at her when I was not? And have me removed from my house? I have questions popping into my head now. If she got mad enough at me and really wanted me out of the house could she file a restraining order against me? These are just hypothetical questions. I am realizing that people can be driven to do crazy things that work out bad for the "good guy". maybe this is just cautious planning. That was the first time I think she ever said that to me.

 

Hey man!   

Why are you "sitting on the couch listening and thinking about this stuff"

Respect yourself, teach her to respect you. 

If she can speak to you respectfully, have a conversation with her, if not, don't.

FF

Hey Bro! (FF)

Ok maybe you pictured me just sitting there like a whipped puppy. I conveyed it incorrectly. After we had a "conversation" she told me to get my a$$ out and leave (as she was walking out of the room) in the past I would have jumped off the couch and been right there in her space.

I didn't respond right away. I thought about what I was going to say. Choosing to tell her that she needs to be the one to leave and not me because this is my house, was not the best choice.

Here is the problem, we both seem to be attempting in the early stages of a conversation to employ the communication tactics from MC. The conversation degrades at some point and spirals out of control leading to the stuff I was describing in this post.

When I let her know the next day that I never want to be referred to by her ex husbands name ever again she proceeds to justify why she called me that. At that point I could continue down the road of trying to get some kind of confession from her that she was wrong or I could salvage the remainder of the day and have a conflict free next few days.

to be honest I feel like a failure at dealing with two mentally ill people ( my wife and step son). I prefer to say my wife is emotionally disturbed. It's wearing me out. I feel like I gain some ground and then end up taking 5 steps backwards.

identify that and walk away, leave that subject alone.  This is obviously big picture advice.

In the past couple days I have "led" by walking out of conversations that became unproductive.  Yes, wife's words followed me out the door and even this morning she came out and "reprimanded" me in front of the kids.

My response was to stay calm, ask her to go discuss privately (to her credit she did).  I listened to her concern in private for one minute.  Reiterated that I needed a break from the conversation and stated my expectations (also the expectations of the MC) on "taking breaks" from conversations and I left the room again, this time with words following me again.

To her credit, she has not "corrected" me again in front of the kids.

Throughout it all, I remained "kind but firm".

She is in charge of how she remains.

Now, to your situation.  I think you are doing well.  Likely better than I would do.  Keep pushing to exit unproductive conversations.

FF