BPDFamily.com

We've got about 2 hours of talk time and some writing back and forth in trying to sort out how we are going to do this Sunday morning (organizationally). (I think it should take about 15 minutes, tops)

The discussions keep falling apart (IMO) as she starts talking about my thoughts and emotions.  Basically, standard BPDish drivel about putting someone in corner and trying to get them to defend thoughts and emotions they don't have.

She doesn't see it as a boundary violation but as her "doing her job".

She said that "I need to examine the log in my own eye", and I said "Exactly, yes, wonderful example"

The Bible doesn't talk about telling people about the log in their eye, it directs you to look at your own.

In that sense, you should examine your own thoughts and emotions, vice someone elses.

I proposed that before she can "tell" me about my emotions

1.  Pray

2.  Invite me to "look at my own log"

3.  Wait for my invitation to share her feelings on my emotions.

Which sort of matches up with the biblical version of look at your own log first.

Seeing herself backed in corner she disavowed that as being her idea.

I tried to keep from laughing during this exchange, tried to stay neutral.

FF

I don't like the mandate she has to pray before talking about your feelings. I think that is implying that God will give her an answer that FF likes and not what she wants. It's kind of like saying, "I know once you pray God will tell you that you are full of crap."

I also don't think she should have to wait for your invitation to share her thoughts. That's not what a healthy relationship involves, and it is disempowering. What if you never ask? A good leader doesn't tell people they can't share unless invited.

I like getting the MC involved in helping her move away from accusation ("I know WHAT you are feeling and thinking" into naming what is really going on with her. What are the fears under the accusations?

She can ask if she can share her observations or opinions about my thoughts.

Here is an example of why this matters and leadership.

I have been very intentional the last couple days asking kids about what they think and feel about subjects.  They all say "I don't know"

The appear to me to be afraid to "take a stand" without first knowing what Mommy thinks about this, even if the question is about their feelings.

If kids offer feelings or thoughts they will often be told not to think or feel that way.

FF

Below is the response from me reaching out the the biblical counselor.

That is quite a significant issue.  Pretty sad.  Like everyone has been bullied into enmeshment of sharing her reality of her feelings.

So I recall you were working on her not chatting to her family in a way that was negative towards your marriage.  (I forget how this was phrased). This seems to sort of tie in with that in some way.  Is the family bashing stuff with your wife down?  Is she separated from them in ways that were harmful to you guys?  

This has me a bit curious.

If you are to be a leader, and her submissive, but neither of you are to be pointing to logs.

How are you to point out and lead when she is pointing at your log?  How do you redirect without pointing out her fault? 

Did that come out clear?

What is best action to take when she is pointing at your log? 

(It seems telling MC is actually you pointing out her log, depends on how phrased I suppose)

Yes, exactly.

The guidance I am looking for is what are my expectations, what EXACTLY is it helpful for me to do when we are having a meeting about how to organize Sunday morning so we get to church on time.

We have all agreed it is my job to lead and organize.  Things are going along fine and FFw introduces the "tangent" or "rabbit trail" of you think xyz.  I try to assure FFw that her thoughts on that or any other issue are important and want to set aside time after we handle our current issue, to focus exclusively on that, but for now, we are limiting our focus to Sunday morning and becoming "one flesh" about how we will handle that.

Yes, we really do have about 2 hours of conversation and some extensive writing back and forth invested in this.

This morning she said, finally.

I think we are together on how to handle Sunday morning, BUT, (start BPD weirdness)

FF calls this "snatching defeat from the jaws of victory"

We could have stayed at "we agree" and left the rest out.  That would have been my choice.  

So, when she hijacks or makes the initial "hey, there is a log in your eye" what do I do?  

Excellent question to pose to MC.  Right now I'll be listening to sermon and completing rest of homework.

We also know that the real answer is that there is no right answer.  When "they" become unreasonable, stop dealing with them.

FF

(I recall vividly being in this situation with ex.  We ended up in a disagreement about the regular disagreement, then disagreeing on how to disagree, and it just got deeper and deeper, continuing)

Suggestions tossing around, just tossing ideas here... .

Our MC had us write a list of rules for engaging in conversations.

One time I started our meetings by writing on a paper the topic.  If things got off topic, then one can simply state:  The topic for this meeting is xyz, would you like that thought to be recorded for a future topic discussion?  Let's move back to original topic now.

We allowed things to diverge off one branch of original topic, then back on track, but if it diverged off a branch topic, then another branch off that, we were way off course.  As topics were changing, branching, i kept track on our meeting minutes sheet and actually drew a branch to help orient us on what was occurring and where we were at and to help focus that goal was to proceed down branch back to topic.

Both of us could refer to the rules, but that actually cause more issue as each of us focused on logs!

Ok, I admit, even explaining this makes me seem quite nutty.  I suppose though I was desperate for logical solutions to irrational crap disturbing progress.

My point in expressing this:

Is there a way for you to create a meeting format, and simply redirect towards the desired behavior? 

So instead of: ffW, please do not tell me how I feel.

Try: Let's stay the course with this format.  (Blame it on the format)

OR

How about instead of... .

FF:  I don't want to hear what you think my feelings are, just ask, Let's talk about this topic when you are not making assumptions.

Try... .

FF:  It appears I am having trouble leading this meeting.  Let's take a three minute break to pray quietly to God and request what we need to be more conductive here for OURSELVES, return focusing on only what we ourselves can contribute positively.

After the prayer, maybe we can state what we will do better at... .  Maybe not.

Maybe something like that will give you a time out, without saying she is a problem, but blaming your leadership skills, then hoping you two can return having a less "blaming spirit"?

Does any of that make sense?

I have tried these formats before and she has "bucked them off"

"No, I'm not changing the subject, I have a right to express my opinions"  (would be a typical response to "let's get back on track"

Let's get back on track again

"You just don't want to talk about because you are mad that I brought it up"

FF exits.

I am totally with you on a logical response to an illogical situation.  That is what I will be doing.

It is in her court how to respond to that.

I will also have time for "feelings" and "illogic".  I'm not banning them. 

Sigh

FF

Oh, eh, I hear what you are saying.

I tried to see if I could present a strategy for effective leadership:

I found this great handout for dealing with issues in small group dynamics.

(Maybe helpful for another as it really looks excellent even though deals with group setting)

www.dyingmatters.org/sites/default/files/user/documents/Resources/ACP%20for%20volunteers/M4%20Handout%20Sec%205.pdf

Lol!  Yikes! Nothing actually seems to apply that hasn't been tried.

Seems like the only options on this list are... .

-You attempt to over-contribute to dim her voice. (Which is NOT going to be seen as anything but bullying)

-aim for a break when people seem worn out. (Which you do)

-offer space and support (which you do)

Well, at least that validates the area in my mind where... .

RA: Sometimes our best efforts do not yield the results we desire.



Still, using language regarding you having issues with leadership skills and gaining support on that front may be more appealing... .idk.  Or more distracting, idk.

Sorry!

I admire your desire and effort.  I have avoided my local church resources for marriage advice and counsel simply because I place BPD behavior as a core personality issue.  One I think is not comprehended by laypersons and typical social workers.

Best wishes all the same!

I've had some success with just repeating the question at hand and not engaging the emotion discussion at all. It seems so counterintuitive from what I do with others, but the emotions sometimes are a way to avoid difficult discussions - especially if there is a commitment to follow through with actions involved. 

FF,

I think you might want to rethink what a leader is in a Christian relationship model. It's not a CEO.  It's not an Alpha dog.

It's a man who loves his wife as Jesus loves him.

It's unconditional love, it's inspiration, it's leadership by example, it's infinite patience. It all starts with you (not her).

In Christian counseling, you need to follow what the counselor is telling you to do - which is to change without condition. Specifically, without condition that your wife change.

The basic premise is that it will take time for you to establish yourself as a leader. You are going to need to find the strength to walk that plank without be "paid" for every step you take. I sense you are looking for immediate payback. Think how patient Jesus was.

When you do that, the counselor will then try to show your wife what is happening and encourage her develop her role in that environment. Hopefully she stay connected and continue into the second stages of this.

This is a tough transition to make.  You need to rely heavily on the counselor to direct your wife - not assume that to be your role during the transition.

For example, when you read this... .

“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?  You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye... .

... .hear it as Matthew telling you what to do about you. Period. It's about you.  Nothing more.

When you have done this (for example) reliably and consistently, the counselor will have an easier time helping your wife redefine herself.

You don't need to be a doormat... .but you do need to find love, grace, and humility that you have not be in touch with for a long time. You need to make sweeping changes... .

Skip

Just for fun, what is an alpha dog?

• The meanest, strongest dog in the pack, that the others are afraid of?

• The dog that make the other dogs feel safe from outside attack, keeps balance and structure in the pack, and who provides access to food?

Skip

As a Christian woman, married for 18 years to a Christian man, now widowed I needed to know that the person at the head of my family, my husband, could be trusted.  I needed to know that he could stand and fight for my family, protect us, make the final decisions, lead me down the right path spiritually/financially/morally, adore me, and provide for me.

When a man can do that, when he has proven himself to be that stable, strong in faith, kind and gentle, through leading by example then a woman can put down her sword, lower her armour, feel safe and submit to him.  I realize this is more difficult for a woman with BPD to do and it is not a reason that the man relinquishes his Christian responsibility as her husband.  It is even more important that he do so.

lbjnltx

Part of RA, is accepting, that with our best efforts of modeling and leadership, in the end, we are still married to a pwBPD.  

Even when we are trying our best, we are not behaving perfectly, so yea, there is pretty much always something better we could have done for our part.  This is a given.

Sometimes our pwBPD may be acting badly, and sometimes this will happen despite our best near perfect efforts.  Sometimes they act well, and it also may not have to do with us.

The best leader with a spouse with BPD... .

... .is still a leader of a spouse with BPD.

Sometimes I worry a bit... .

When we are tending to judge ourselves based on the outcome and results. ( There needs to be balance of outcomes being a dynamic result of many factors into the equation.)

That is fine to directly correlate the two when the factors we are dealing with are mostly predictable/static/stable ones.  A whole other story when we are dealing with unknown, fluctuating factors.

I believe this holds true both when we blame ourself for the negative outcome of our relationship dynamic, as much as it does when we give ourself accolades for our partner behaving well one week.

Yep, totally agree.

The nuance here, .that I may not have explained very well, is that the purpose of the meetings was to get together and organize getting the family to church on time.  The attempt/direction is to lead my wife through this (doing it differently).  She apparently doesn't want to do it differently and wants to focus on my emotions (that I don't actually have) and be disruptive of the meeting with that focus.

The counselor wants the love that Jesus gave but also wants to "CEO love" of organizing and running the house.

Wife is also a bit astonished or suspicious that Jesus had or used boundaries, he did.  And so do I.

more later.

FF

FF, wherever you are, be it in counseling or on Sunday mornings, lead with a kind and gentle spirit.  Trying to lead in an authoritarian manner will not build trust with your wife or your children. 

Formflier, do you also agree with this portion of Skip's post?


I don't know how anyone married to a mentally ill spouse can do this without first facing quite soberly the tragedy and grief of the situation. Pausing, maybe, to do just that.

Have I missed it in your particular posts? Do you really feel that your wife has paranoid personality disorder? What do you feel this means for you and for your children? Have you been able to slow down enough to feel the gravity of your wife's mental illness and the need for truly sweeping changes?

You seem to have a fine mental health team now. Especially if the psychologist who is helping you individually is still in the picture. (Wasn't she an older lady who used language like, "Oh, honey . . . . " when you spoke with her. She sounded like someone who can be straightforward with you, and realistic.)

Skip's post above is superb. I take it as a post for me as well as for you. Can you "sit with it" for a bit?

Yes, she is in late 50s or early 60s.  I've not asked.  She is devout Christian and has been pushing me hard to show grace, to a point.

She is also working to show me that boundaries are not mean.  They are actually a "kind and loving" thing to do.  To point out to the world that this is where I end and you begin.  

In the past, I have viewed boundary enforcement as somewhat of a "putting up the dukes" (fists) kind of thing, and sometimes it is.  

Recently whenever it is boundary enforcement time I focus on taking a deep breath and being "kind but firm".

One thing that my psychologist has been surprisingly strong on is the idea of my own emotions and not getting tangled up in the projections of others.

She is also pushing me in my interactions with my kids to tie everything to who they are as a unique individual.  

My wife may or may not ever form a solid sense of self, but she is pushing me, to push the kids to become less dependent on "mommy's view of them".

Yes I agree with Skip's post.  

It is doubtful that my wife would be diagnosed with PPD.  If she had a bad streak that lasted for several months and she was being evaluated then, much more likely.

This psychologist IS pushing me to look for patterns that may help her categorize my wife more and at the same time she IS pushing me to focus on the interaction that is happening right now, that my wife is responding better, and to give her credit for that.

Basically "Get me information and don't worry about labels"

Yes, very good post.

FF

What a wonderful psychologist who is working with you. |iiii

I disagree with the following, but hearing you say it makes me understand your position better:


ADDED: I mean to say that if you do not believe your wife would be diagnosed with a major mental illness, then it makes sense that "embracing radical acceptance" is not something you feel called upon to do at this time.

 

In the grand scheme of the family, my wife is the "wannabe".  When she is acting up, it appears to me that she is trying to "chew a man's a$$" like Aunt so and so, or pass judgment like her mom.

Then she goes into phases where those women are poking at her to "do more" or "why are you letting him get away with xyz" (xyz is some concocted story)

The other women have had multiple divorces, affairs and fit the standard mold of Bpdish behavior than my wife does.

Her Mom is still on first marriage, but Dad is a doormat.  Worked tons of overtime and stayed out of moms way.  He once tried to give me advice that "he's had to put up with "it" all my life and the sooner I get used to that, the better"  Perhaps he is good at RA.  What is the difference in RA and a doormat?

My answer was "No, I will not be the one to adjust.  I will not "be getting used to it and will not be living this way"

My wife was first to graduate college and has done many things very different from her family.  If any of them have a chance to break free and live "healthy" it is her.

Plus, we essentially lived that way for a number of years (15ish).  The military kept me absent a lot and kept some things masked.

Good news to report! 

One of the focuses of the Psychologist is D5.  Has been having major meltdown issues for a long time.  I have become more of the primary caregiver  (to give mommy a break) and have been focused on validation and listening, coupled with firm limits on behavior. 

Meltdowns used to go on for 30 plus minutes.  The last one was over with a ":)addy I'm ready to talk to you" in about 2 minutes. 

We talk openly about being angry, sad and "feeling those feelings", vice being told "don't act that way, you've got nothing to be sad about, "

More later, good thread.  Keep it going!

FF 

 

I've been thinking about this post for a bit.  Will try to add some thoughts about things I have been changing and other things that I still want to change about me.


FF

I spend time with thoughts I collect here too.  We're both doing as you say.

So, had a really good talk/session with psychologist today about where I/we are and where I am trying to take the family.

Most progress has been made with D5.  She has been ground zero for emotional meltdowns.  My wife has stopped arguing with a 5 year old and I'm handling discipline now. 

My wife feels relieved and yesterday my daughter had a meltdown, but calmed within a minute as I hugged her and helped her talk through her emotions.  It used to be a 10-15 minute thing when I first started this effort.

I did some roleplay with psychologist about how to help kids identify and own their emotions.  "What are you feeling?" doesn't get much response.  I'm going to say how I would feel in a situation like that and see if they agree.  Move from there to identifying and owning that emotion.

I feel really good about the role I am playing here with kids.  They seem to be seeking me out more.  Wife seems relieved. 


My role with my wife and biblical counseling:  At this point I can summarize by saying "listen and stay out of the way".  She seems to be working through some challenging things.

Yesterday she said that previous biblical counselors had tried to show her that she was not being submissive and she blew them off (my interpretation of her words).  She now sees places where she is "grabbing the wheel".  She seems remorseful and is trying to leave the wheel alone.

She seems accepting of a couple boundary enforcement actions I took over "mind reading" and was apologetic.

"Listen and leave it alone" is sort of a mantra for me to deal with her projections. 

I open the door for her to "tell me more because that sounds really important to you", vice debating the point.

I had been pretty good at NOT debating, but have benefited from role play with psychologist to "open the door" or "draw more of that feeling out".

Been working on "getting over myself" and letting stuff go quicker.  I have been doing OK with this, but need to take it to next level.  Especially when she gives any indication she sees her wrongdoing.  Accept her back


More later,

FF

Nice work, formflier.

On ways to help children--especially sensitive children--work with and work through their emotions, livednlearned has posted some wonderful information in her threads of the past year or two about what she has learned and what she practices with her son. It sounds like truly transformative things that child psychologists are learning and teaching these days. You may already be seeing early fruits of some of these validating practices.

 

Had to quit posting when my wife came back from running with S13. 

I've also been pushing her to spend more 1 on 1 time with kids, rather than trying to manage the entire bunch at once.



She can manage the entire bunch, but often goes into "stern teacher voice" which can quickly deteriorate into yelling and exasperation, and then into name calling.

More later.  Especially want to talk about what I am and am not "accepting"

FF

So, there is a great question out there about what do I "radically accept".

Also, to be clear I see a difference between "radical acceptance" and "this is OK".

I do accept that paranoia is at the core of my wife's issues.  Whether or not it is diagnoseable as PPD or is she is diagnosable as BPD does not affect me accepting that.

My wife is very high functioning and that will lead me to think, from time to time, that she may be able to be "close to normal" again.  Those are nice thoughts to have and a great place to put healthy time and effort (into the journey to a healthier marriage).

My best guess is that if I had all the tools in place after the flood that forced us from our home, my wife would have been "eccentric" or had some funny ideas here and there.  My best guess is that the pathway we are on now leads us to a much healthier marriage and that I would likely describe her end state is a bit eccentric or occasionally excitable.

I won't be able to forget the past, but I am able to smile about it, chuckle a bit. 

I was talking to Psychologist about this yesterday and she said she was pleased with progress we have made, but said that some of my wife's ideas are pretty out there.  She said the "murder by sex toy" plot was in the top 5 "worst" paranoid stories she has encountered in her years of practice.

If you remember the posting, my wife demonstrated for the Psychologist how she used her body to pin the sex toy and therefore prevented me killing her.

Psychologist followed up with a direct question about biblical counseling being the proper place to sort through this type of issue and my wife was solid that biblical MC was the best place to sort out the attempted murder.

 

She did say that my wife is responding nicely to proper tools and support. 


Does this clarify what I accept and that I don't accept?  If not, please keep coming with the follow up questions.

FF

I think this psychologist is "just the ticket" for you, and I hope you can settle in for a productive journey with her guidance.

There's no way, in my opinion, that her diagnostic mind didn't take immediate note of the "murder by sex toy" thoughts your wife so freely shared.


Can you describe the difference you see between the two? And whether you think your opinion might evolve over time? Because I think you can make a lot of things be "OK," and I also think radical acceptance is the path toward that goal. I believe the psychologist can show you how to be the leader toward "this is OK."

If it is the case that your wife has always suffered from paranoia and always will suffer from paranoia, what will the future look like for you as the father in this family? I'd love to hear the psychologist's thoughts, for instance, on whether you can "do the work" and also work outside the home at this time, or whether it will be more beneficial for you to devote your efforts exclusively to the family for the next few years of your children's lives and emotional development.

When I say "it is ok", I am talking about the behavior my wife may exhibit.

I absolutely will radically accept that odd stuff will come up now and again.  I'm not going to say that behavior is "ok" or agree with it, or validate the invalid.  I will apply tools as best I can, and leave her to sort through her feelings about her experience while I use boundaries, as appropriate, to protect "my space"

Radical acceptance is to me accepting that these things will happen, much different than saying "I'm ok with these things happening".

Granted, there is radical acceptance to say that in many cases I will do the best I can and my wife will do odd things, and there is not much I can do about that. (assuming not a healthy way to apply a tool)

Are we talking about the same thing here?

FF

I'm not sure. . . . What things are you "not OK with" happening? And how will you now handle them?

I understand that you will have boundaries, particularly involving things that concern your children. That makes total sense to me.

Here's what I think I mean when discussing "radical acceptance" for your situation: Would you radically accept that if you obtained a professional position such as the last one you had, that your wife would revert again to the set of behaviors she displayed during your last employment? Or would you think that things will be quite different this time?

I know that you would work to ensure that your wife could not directly sabotage your position at work, but what would happen on the home front? And what would happen to your health?

Employment:  It is a possibility that my wife would go back to some of those behaviors.  At the moment I am not actively pursuing employment.  I am actively pursuing a MBA or something like that.  Part of that is to give some time for whatever growth and healing to happen before trying to get back into the world of work.

Plus, with an MBA, consultant type work is much more likely, than without.  Work that may be a bit more flexible in the manner in which it is done.

Being a public figure is over.  My wife plays a big part in that, but not 100% of that.  Working for politicians is not a good fit for me.  I'm used to carrying out "clear decisions".  Politicians don't do that.

What I have radically accepted is that my wife will "impact" my future employment choices.  Perhaps I get a great job and she can't handle it.  I have my priorities straight and will be wise about supporting my family and making good choices.  (this assumes tools have been used properly and she still "can't handle it". 

Life will go on if I am never again "Mr Bigshot". 

So, I will not "run away" from the world of work based on "fear" of what my wife may do.  But I WILL approach it with very clear eyes and expectations. 

Hope that helps clarify things.

Priorities:  My youngest is three.  I am the "emotional leader" in the house.  Getting her out the door (so to speak) as emotionally healthy as I can is priority number 1.  That will flow down to all the older kids.

FF

That clarifies things.   |iiii

Hi FF.  I have been following your threads ever since the buggy caper as I learn a lot from you and all the people who respond.  I appreciate your openness.  There are a few things I have wanted to post to you in various threads of yours, but by the time I can gather my thoughts, we are on page 4 and my comments no longer fit or I fear they will be lost by the looming post limit.  Please realize that my comments are not just in relation to this thread so some of this may seem unrelated.  so, with that preamble, here goes.

Sometimes it seems that you take on an almost paternal role with your wife.  Trying to get her to see and admit things, to follow your rules, etc.  Some of that impression may stem from the Biblical marriage you are in and the whole idea of 'headship' I admit that I only have a vague idea of what that is (and yes I did a bit of reading on it), but (!) it seems to me there is blurring of lines between being in a relationship with her and trying to "fix" her.  

I think a lot of people forget that denial (and all the other defense strategies) is there as a protective mechanism.  She will see what she needs to see when she needs to see it... .and hopefully will have access to a trained professional when that time comes.  It is not your place to try to break though those mental and emotional protections.  You can theorize all you want about what is going on with your wife but none of her issues are for you to point out, probe or attempt to fix.  As you said, you are not qualified.  In addition, it is not appropriate for you to take on that role.  You are not her parent or therapist.  You are her husband and partner.


How do you see this applying to you?  Can you see where you often talk about your wife mind-reading and telling you what your emotions are and how you do the very same to your wife?  You may not express them directly like your wife does, but you do seem to at least act on your assumptions.  Perhaps this is an area that prompted the BC's remark that you both have turned to blaming the other?

(this is where I go off on something not specifically related to this thread but it is an area I think permeates your marriage)  I've also noticed that on a few occasions you have mentioned that you have had a hard time hiding your amusement when your wife has felt cornered and was squirming (or whatever).    Chances are your wife senses that amusement.  That amusement indicates a feeling of superiority, condescension, and in a lot of cases, contempt whether you realize it or not.   It may not be your intention, but your amusement will be obvious to anyone who is tuned in to others and who is good at reading people.   Think about it FF.  If someone is having a rough time comprehending or dealing with something, especially if it is in a sensitive area, coupled with BPD/traits, and they sense you being amused by the process, you are going to make it even harder for them to fight through all the emotions and stay in the moment.  Never mind the fact that it is just plain disrespectful. Take a look at the log in your own eye.     I sort of equate this to when your wife laughs when you say you are disabled.  How does it feel?

Maybe rather than trying to hide your amusement you could remind yourself of the depth of emotions your wife is struggling with and sit quietly in support with compassion rather than amusement in your heart.  Please do not fool yourself into thinking you are hiding this amusement from your wife.  Nobody is that good.  If you can't control it, then remove yourself from the situation.  Take this as an area you should focus on for *you*.  Is the amusement you feel coming from a place of love, patience and acceptance?  

FF, as always, take what fits and leave the rest.  

Take care and be well.  

Hi everyone 

With due respect to those who have experience in marriage and Christianity, I'm hoping to help with an idea that might clarify the situation. Please excuse me if I missed something in the backstory.

Would it help you to clarify your intentions to yourself FF?

Talking exclusively about intentions, this is your intention:


This is her intention:


In a non and pwBPD context, you aren't working on the same problem with her. From what I understand, the non would need to:

1) have a clear definition of the problem; then

2) validate the BP; then

3) go to the actual act of problem-solving.

Instead of solving the two problems (you have one, she seems to have one). I'm getting the feeling that you are discussing everything about the roles of Christian husbands and wives instead of actually proceeding to problem solve. You both seem to be spending a lot of effort and exertion on not solving the problems that you both went to see the counsellor for.

I hope this helps and you have some time to rest:)

Good posts.  Thanks for the input and keep it coming.


I do see the paternal part of me in our r/s.  At the end of the day I am responsible for those that have been entrusted to me.  8 kids and 1 wife.  It's hard to "turn of" the paternal way of approaching things

Interesting that you brought this up.  It has been talked about by my wife and I to a limited extent.  We have long had the habit of calling each other "mommy and daddy" because kids are usually around.  Yes there are times when I would call her by her name or by a pet name that I have for her.  We have both been trying to call each other by our first names more, even around the kids.

We had mentioned this, really my wife brought it up as a more minor issue.  I'll have to give this some thought.


Amusement:   Comments are right on the mark.  I will say in defense of me and those that use this defense mechanism that the emotion has to go somewhere.  I used to lash out or point out the preposterousness  (I think I just made up a word) of what was being said.  Now there is more of an internal gallows humor or chuckle to what I hear as I focus on keeping my outward appearance calm and focused.

Again, comments are right on the mark.  I'm still working on this.  In FF fashion, I'm probably somewhere between good and better on the good, better, best thing.

For the meetings thing.  I am an agenda driven guy.  I can't force my wife to stay on topic.  But I will stay engaged with her as long as talk is not abusive or crosses a boundary. 

The problem we are discussing is Sunday morning, that is the agenda.  I'll be happy to schedule time to discuss a different agenda item at a different time.  So yes there are other, obvious problems to discuss, but "put them each in their own bucket", separate them into smaller parts, whatever the analogy.

I'll come back to these posts later.  Thanks for the input and observations.

FF

Skip KateCat and all the others that are asking about radical acceptance.  Just know that this will be topic one with the Psychologist today.

Perhaps my hopes of improvement are too much or completely unrealistic.

Of course something has happened that has got me thinking about this.  The good news is that I have not been reactive or lashed out, and I don't think any significant legal damage has been done, time will tell.

Like many on here, we have complicated stories.



I have been in a long running contractual legal dispute.  Recently got a legal payout from this where we settled instead of going to court.  So, in a sense I "won" (KatCat has likely has been around enough of this to understand that I don't feel like a "winner", but am glad the matter is settled)

I thought wife was onboard and thought "our side" was in the right.  There were competing claims, some quite slanderous. 

Our legal team has been clear with us that we don't talk to them, we talk to our lawyers, our lawyers talk to their lawyers, and their lawyers talk to them.  Pretty standard, adult stuff.

Guess who my wife has been calling and talking to in order to "understand" what I have really been up to, ?

Yep, the other side.  They filled her head with lies, I believe one of our lawyers was able to "talk her down a bit" yesterday.

I was "confronted" with what she found out during biblical MC yesterday.  To his credit, he did try to help her see that I might perceive this as her "going behind my back". 

He seemed more interested in "me confronting my sinful reactions", which I would describe as incredulous reaction, .do what? 

Likely I still don't firmly grasp what she has done here.

Lawyer doesn't think this changes anything or did any real damage.  He directly expressed concern about my martial r/s.

I don't know the exact days or times that she called, so not able to match things up that way.  Not sure if that would help me understand, or if that would matter.

We have had regular conversations about the legal case, as it progressed.  I have been open to see if she has any questions and have offered her access, which she has declined, to most lawyer meetings and phone calls.  Biblical MC drew this out of her and when asked why she didn't come to me with concerns and questions, especially when I had been open she said something to the effect that she thinks I "might" be lying and felt she needed to know "the truth".

Sigh,

So, right now as I reread my post.  This seems like a guy in denial, or not fully grasping the severity of the situation.

Is this what you guys have been trying to say, that it appears I am in denial?



FF



 

I would say that just for right now, just until you come out of the fog, it might be best to take your guidance from the two types of counselors who are most likely to be able to protect you personally: the attorneys and the licensed psychologist. (Not that there's anything wrong with continuing to attend the biblical counseling with your wife as well.)

Do you feel that both the attorney and the psychologist are trying to tell you something important? I'm remembering in general terms the psychologist's comment that your wife's paranoia seemed a striking case, at least in her experience.

I would share the details of this legal matter with your psychologist if I were you, so she can roll up her sleeves and start helping you plan for the future. (Formal diagnosis of your wife may never happen and may not really matter.)

Yep, I sent my wife's writeup to the P.  And have appt later today.

Yes, she described my wife's story and "acting out" of my attempt to kill her with the sex toy as one of the "top 5" or "top 10" (don't exactly remember how she put it) that she has seen.  As in , worst,

Sigh

FF

I can't think of a positive spin to put on it, except that every member of your family has been living with Mom's mental illness, but probably without much understanding. You being able to make big changes now will brighten the future of all of your children. It seems that "everyone" is saying that change will start and perhaps even end with you. This is what I think too.

Of course . . . if you ever see any scientific evidence that paranoia can be cured, please share it with me.  :)

 

Yep, and there is undeniable "metric based" (my kinda thing) proof that D5 is responding really well to the changes I am implementing at the direction of the psychologist.

Other kids seem to be doing better as well.

Somehow, in the midst of all this craziness, I need to figure out how to be stronger and hopefully use that strength for the betterment of my family.

FF

This is your prime mission, so I think you will accomplish it.  |iiii

wow, FF! That sounds like you truly got a wakeup call about your wife's paranoia. We can so easily delude ourselves into believing that their mental illness isn't as severe as we had thought when things are going more smoothly. But the idea that it will always be something we'll have to cope with, defend ourselves from (and others in your case), and always be on guard--no wonder so many of us are exhausted. And most people outside the relationship have no clue... .

 

And, the biblical counselor is leaning hard on me to do things to "build trust" in my wife.  Basically implying that she won't be paranoid if I do xyx.

He outright refused to discuss it yesterday and wanted to focus on why I lead the way I do.

So, because this is best way to deal with paranoid person is now off table, .Grr

Lots to talk about today with P

FF

Your efforts to knit these two forms of counseling together will probably help any number of men who participate here in bpdfamily. Kind of like a Townsend and Cloud Boundaries experience . . . .