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I was just thinking, I wonder how much of the pain that I still feel after realizing all that my uBPDexgf has done to me is the result of my not wanting to lose? I realize that no one can answer that question for me, but I needed to write about it to get it out of my mind.

As I delve deeper into that, I think that my not wanting to lose in this case actually means a few things.

1. My feelings of not being good enough. I wasn't good enough to keep her. - OK, we know that there is nothing that I could have done to keep her if she didn't want me in her life. Disordered or not, that's a reality. if she is disordered however, I never really had a chance from the start.

2. My feelings of not being good enough. Some other guy is better than me. - What that really means is that not every r/s is meant to be. Sometimes people just don't fit together no matter how hard they try and how badly they claim to want it. Again, if she is disordered, there is another layer of complexity added to the equation and it really has nothing to do with another person being better than me at all.

3. I hate that I proved her right. - At the end of the r/s, it became a contest between her and I. Neither wanting to give in. Both wanting to prove that we were right. You can insert whatever topic in there that you want to, that's how everything seemed to play out. Her fears told her that I would leave her, and she appeared to be pushing for it. I swore that I never would, but I did. I wanted so desperately to prove her wrong however (still do!).

4. I hate being wrong. - Let's face it, no one likes being wrong. I wanted so badly to be right about how perfect she was that I was willing to overlook so many things so that I could be right. I can include not wanting to acknowledge that I made a huge mistake when each time I allowed her to charm me back into the r/s.

I think that the second one in the list is probably the strongest at this moment though.

Hi Meili 


I experienced this pain and fear of loss too.


Can you trace this back to some events in your life? Don't worry, from one man to another, it's normal to feel like we aren't good enough from time to time--not just in male-female relationships.

It seems that the disorder removes <edit:typos> a condition for you, in your mind. This condition is where you think that a "better" guy is required. I.e., if she is disordered → it allows you to think she wasn't looking for someone "better". Why is this important to you? That said, before you go to a question of a man or woman's "worth", what is a worthy woman to you? What is a worthy man?

Since you've shown thought that the second point is strongest, it makes sense to focus on it.

I praise you for confronting this. I encourage you to explore this, it sounds like there's something there for you.

Nothing you could have done otherwise there. She's the worst kind of teammate you'd want on your team.

Hi Meili

Nice job with personal awareness on this post.  In reading through some of your thoughts I am struck by the idea of the missing understandings we have about ourselves and BPD ex's.  What I mean is that the comments and observations you are grappling with are incomplete in the sense that they assume your partner was an emotionally fully capable person, it is very likely that they are/were not.

Placing your comments in that context gives them a different light.  Rather than feeling that you are not good enough or always needed to be right; I read your comments as saying; why did I engage an imbalanced person at this level of intimacy and trust.

I understand the mechanics of being in love and wanting the r/s to work out, but, given the level of internal incompleteness a pwBPD has, why did we engage them in setting out to show the right and wrong of anything? 

So to your explicit points:

1) Not only could you not have a r/s with her, it is also just as probable, that she will not be able to have a r/s with others.  This is a function of the disorder, not you.

2) She is disordered.  You are personally assuming responsibility for her disordered ways.  You are a part of her disordered story, not the cause of it.  There is no "not good enough" for her, rather, there is fear - of intimacy and abandonment, of which you represented both.

3) You protected yourself.  We all have a sense of what is healthy and not healthy.  The fact that you say "you proved her right" by leaving, tells me that her fears that you would leave were already operational. 

4) Rather than judge yourself as "wrong" how about rephrasing this into; I wanted this r/s to work and so crossed my own boundaries to see it through.  This places a level of control back on you that allows for the possibility of seeing yourself as having a healthy level of personal control in the decisions you made.  Though it feels awful, you can entertain that you made healthy decisions that resulted in an unwanted outcome.

Overall you are judging yourself pretty strongly here.  We all make mistakes in r/s'.  There is a tendency to attribute what we did or did not do to understanding the outcomes of our failed r/s'.  The facts are that if she is disordered there is nothing you could or could not have done that would have changed the outcomes.  Dancing around the thoughts of - self-care versus walking on eggshells - keeps us vulnerable to taking too much responsibility.  In short what I am trying to say is; take responsibility for what you could have done better but not the outcome of the r/s, that was likely to have ended regardless of these things.

Does any of this resonate with you?

JRB

Hi Meili,


It does seem that the blame, shame and guilt that comes with these types of relationships can be measured on the Richter scale.   

What I know is true for me is, that if a trauma bond exists there is most often trauma shame that comes along with it.  They are tied together.  Trauma can leave a feeling of being defective or flawed.   If there is repetitive trauma coming from the  betrayal of intimacy and trust in important personal relationships, the natural reaction to this is a feeling of shame.   I think you can feel that feeling without necessarily believing it.   

We have all been in those circular arguments with our pwBPD where they are trying to project their negative feelings on us and we are fighting like mad to project them right back.   To be "right".   To find out who was at fault.   It's a complicated and damaging mix.  I personally don't think right/wrong, fault, blame, failure and guilt are particularly helpful concepts when they are held in black and white extremes as is so often the case in a high conflict relationship.  It can be our own form of black and white thinking.

I like what JRB said.


Teasing apart the threads of what got us into these relationships and what keeps us there appears often times multifaceted.    It's a huge growth opportunity.   Take your time and be gentle with yourself.

'ducks

Yes Meili... i to struggle with these very same questions. Its compounded for me. Not only am i left with the feelings of the loss and ultimate failure of the r/s but I'm also left with the burden of ALL the blame. It's a volatile mix of emotions and has been a heavy burden for me to process it all. I guess there is some little comfort knowing that the 'deck was stacked' from the beginning and that, normal r/s rules do not apply to in most cases when dating pwBPD. Insert >> Trauma Bond <<

Over time, and most certainly towards the end of the r/s, it become more like Competition rather then Cooperation with pwBPD traits. There was no rational loving perspective of unity towards resolve. The line was drawn. Yes, The circular arguments, the blame and frustration it all caused. I've turned a corner, much like you where I've accepted my role in all this; compassion. I'm just trying not to beat myself too badly. I'm still mourning as it would be... Truth is - We are good enough, but not for each other. Easier said than done.

Thank you all for your responses.


Oh, sure, my FOO - specifically my mother - taught me that I'm not "good enough." She even told me that everyone should come before me in all things. She's a peach! I just had another run-in with her where she reminded me that I'll never be good enough in her book. I just walked away from her. I don't need that in my world. I'm tired of people telling me that I'm not good enough.


Maybe I am misreading this, but I truly believe that she was looking/wanted a better man than me. My x was forever telling me that I wasn't good enough. The last couple months that we were together, it really looked like she was out with others. I'll never know (and honestly, would prefer not to know or even think about that!).


It's important to me because I have never really felt worthy in anything or to anyone.

To me, a worthy man and woman are the same thing. They are people who have something to offer and enhance the lives of others.


I truly wish that I could believe that there was nothing that I could have done, but I will agree that she's the worst kind of teammate.

I've watched my father deal with my witch of a mother for over four decades. He's strong enough to deal with it. I'm just not. Now, I will admit that he used to take his frustrations out on me, so I take all that with the appropriate amount of salt. Even so, I was taught to worship him as a saint because of all he did.

Actually, that's been part of the equation for me for quite some time. But, at the end of the day, I can only be responsible for myself and my actions. I could have acted differently. Would the outcome have been different? Probably (like 99.9% probability) not, but... .


That's the easiest question of them all, because she showed me that I was worth something. Sure, what I was worth didn't amount to more than someone to do things for her and try to prove his love, but at least that was something. It's better than others have given to me during my life. (Sorry, I'm just a bit down today.)


Because, she was on the same level, or so I thought, of emotional incompleteness that I am?


I truly hate thinking that she won't. Her responses to her fears aside, she's the most wonderful woman that I ever met. Well, she's probably not everyone's cup of tea, but to me she was. I hate that I'll never know how much of that was real and how much of it was a taught response to her fears. I know that at least part of it was though. She's told me some of the things that her exes have said to/about her, and I can see where she at least acknowledged those things. She didn't seem to make an effort to change them, but she acknowledged them. Heck, some of them I actually liked!


No, I'm assuming responsibility for my choices and actions, not hers. As someone who suffers from complex PTSD, I also suffer from those same fears of intimacy, rejection, and abandonment. I have a very personal understanding of them. That's where the majority of my guilt lies. I knew, and could see as it was happening, what she was experiencing. I was just so guarded and protected at the time that self-preservation was my guiding force. The times that I wasn't so guarded, I was able to calm her down and reassure her; at least it seemed so. But, as things spiraled out of control, I started to notice that the only way to belay her fears was to engage mine. Again, at the time, I couldn't do that. Who knows, I probably couldn't do it today if I needed to. Fortunately, as much as it hurts me, I'm not willing to find out.

This is very true. She always showed me that she thought that I'd leave her. I probably could/should have worked harder to show her that I wouldn't. But, I had already given up my entire being to another woman several years prior and almost took my own life as a result of the demise of that r/s. I wasn't willing to go through that again. As a result, I kept what I consider a healthy distance. I kept boundaries. I kept a sense of self.

It's sad, my uBPDexgf was always hurt because I told her that my life would go on without her. She told me that she'd prefer to think that I'd be devastated without her. I couldn't give her that though. Yet, here I sit, feeling that my life is in ruins with no meaning or enjoyment without her. Each day, I fight the urge to let her know that. If I thought that it would do either of us any good, I'd tell her. I presume that it would be met with indifference on her part and pain on me, so I stay quiet.


Ah, but I'm still being told that I did wrong by crossing those boundaries. All relevant comments seem to converge on the idea that I should have maintain the boundaries that I knew were healthy. I was wrong for crossing them, and I'd be wrong for doing so now even though I want to do so to see it all through to the bitter end. By crossing my boundary now, I'd be trying to control the situation and my destiny in hopes of the r/s working out. But, we all know that won't happen. If it was going to, it would have after all. So, here I sit, alone and in pain. My future decided by someone else because she wasn't able to make different choices. Same idea, just a different spin. Of course, I'm feeling really down about all of it and my life atm, so take it all for what it's worth.


uummm... .but, I'm the only one that I can judge.

Yeah, I'm trying to only take responsibility for my part in all of it. It's just that looking back, I wonder. I know that I can't change it now, but that doesn't stop me from wondering and mourning. I hate that I'll never know what would or could, if anything, have been any different had I responded differently.

Was she truly a sweet woman who loved me beyond my understanding since I don't know what love is? Or, is she truly disordered and I'm safer as a result? That's what plagues me. I take comfort in knowing that "normal" people don't threaten to have the person that they love deeply thrown in jail for something that they haven't done. I take solace in knowing that "normal" people don't force their way into other people's houses and stay when the other person is trying to get them to leave. 'Normal' people don't prevent others from calling the police. 'Normal' people don't chase others down in a car as they are trying to get away. 'Normal' people don't send strings of hateful text messages and emails designed to hurt the person they claim to love. 'Normal' people don't... .

Yep, still kinda bitter and emotional about those things. But, I will forever wonder what would have happened if I had fought for her as hard as she fought to retain our r/s? That's what she asked me to do after all... .



First, I completely agree with you about it being our own form of black and white thinking.

Second, I find it completely interesting that most of us who venture into r/s with pwBPD have, at some point or another, been conditioned to believe that we are at fault. Otherwise, pwBPD wouldn't be able to get such a strong handle on us.


Yeah, it is a huge opportunity. We should all strive to learn from the experience. Even when we are afraid of what we might see, at least it gives us a chance to face and grow from it.

After much thought, I reached out to my x. I mainly did it to relieve much of the guilt that I felt about how it all ended. It was quite interesting actually.

Much of it seems very stereotypical from what I've been reading here. There were a lot of ILY's on both sides. There were a lot of "you were so special to me" on both sides. There were a lot of "I miss what we had" on both sides. There was even sex talk on both sides. There were a lot of apologies on my side.

Not a single apology from her. Not even any acknowledgment that she hurt me, scared me, or caused me pain. There was a lot of blaming, telling me that she thinks that I chose my female friend (who is also my ex) over her, and that I don't think that she's good enough. I'm really sure that there was some projection going on when she said that my friend is an "evil controlling b**** out to destroy [my] relationships."

I kept reminding myself that feelings = facts in this situation. I also maintained my boundaries about what I willing to allow in my life.

I also contacted her out of curiosity about her attachment. I have read that pwBPD have triggers that create attachment issues. They will do pretty much anything to maintain the attachment. It isn't about the object of the attachment however if I understand it correctly. During my r/s with her, we discussed (well, I did at least) that I have been able to maintain friendships with my exes because I love the person not the r/s. My x seems to love the r/s because when it ends, the person is cut out of her life.

I was curious about all of this because complex PTSD appears, from the outside, to be the same thing as BPD. I suffer from C-PTSD, and I know that from the outside much of what I experience looks like BPD. I have the same fears of attachment, rejection, and abandonment. When triggered, I have irrational responses too. My x had a bad childhood also. Her father, based on all evidence before me, suffers from NPD. Her mother was overly critical too. So, I've wondered if my x may have C-PTSD rather than BPD? I think that the difference here is that I'm willing to work to change my behaviors and acknowledge my wrong-doings and faults. I am also willing to atone for my transgressions the best that I can.

It will be interesting to see what she does from here though. She said that she's willing to try to be my friend and see if we can develop any level of trust between us.

Wow Meili. Bold move. I'm glad you were able to be the better person here and confront her again. More importantly, she accepted you back into her life. That sounds healthy to me. You must have a great weight lifted off your shoulders.

I look forward to hearing about the progress of the friendship.

More stereotypical pwBPD stuff. Lots of communication via text. Triangulation, projection, push/pull, accusations, and more blame. The script is definitely being followed. Seeing it for what it is has been extremely helpful.

Now, I just need to figure out what to do with all of it and where to go from here.

I talked to my T about it today. She asked me where I want all of this to go? I really have no idea. I know that it can't go anywhere with the way that it is. Nothing has changed. Well, my x hasn't changed. I have and am. Seeing things without the delusions has changed everything for me.

Not too long ago, I wrote about being strong enough to handle the abuse, and about having compassion for my x. Everything being much clearer now, I'm not sure that strength comes into play any longer. While I'm compassionate about what she deals with, I find the compassion to be much less of a driving force now. I suspect what that really means is that I am less interested in "saving" her than I was before.

This just popped into my head, and I need to get it out... .

When talking to my x, she would tell me, in the same sentence that she loves me and then verbally "hit me." It's so reminiscent of the "this is for your own good" comments that my parents would make when punishing me.

I guess that I'm no better though. I would tell her that I loved her, and that's why I had to walk away from her. But, I do explain why I had to walk away and how that makes sense in my mind.

Each time that she'd tell me that she'd come back to me and that we could live "happily ever after" if I'd just give up my friendships with my other exes, I wanted to tell her that I'd happily give them up if she'd get the help that she needs and could treat me with love and respect. I knew that would have been a bad plan though.

Speaking of respect. I just realized that my x did show a bit of understanding today. I was happy about that, but now I'm thinking that it probably was just part of her mask that I haven't been able to remove yet because I'm a hopeiholic. I wanted to see niceness in her, so I looked for it.

Anyway, her stated reason for wanting me to give up my friendships is because by keeping them, I am telling her that she's less important than those other women and that they are better than her. I probably shouldn't be shocked by this response. I probably should be happy that she gave me some insight into what is actually going on inside of her.

Geez, looking at how much I have just written, I realize that the dialogues had more of an impact on me that I first realized.  folie

Its odd. my pwBPDx told me on several occasions that 'she does not ever stay friends with any of her exes'... Perhaps that was a  red-flag right there... .and one I should start applying more heavily to this breakup.

#1. They are not capable of the understanding of what it means to have 'love and lost' and #2. Probably every breakup has been so dramatic that, they have to shed the negative skin of what and who they were in the relationship and cannot be reminded of 'who they were to that perosn'. My guess anyway.

I;m friends with ALL my exgf. Now, do I see them or talk them anymore. Nope. But if I saw them it would be a very warm experience.

I would agree that complete and total discard of every prior ex is a  red-flag.

I suppose that I should add that applies more as we get older. When you've exceeded 40 years and you are not friends with even a single ex, that says a lot IMHO.

And, the story is not complete.

In the middle of the night, I received a text message from my x telling me that it's best for her if she just walks away.

As so many here has said in the past, when we leave a pwBPD and start to talk to that person again later, the pwBPD will then end things so that it can be on that person's terms. My x told me that all of her past r/s were ended by her after a period of on again, off again. I guess that I gave that to her so she can have things be according to her choice.

There were a few more messages between us, instigated by me, in which she was nice but distant. There was a bit of talk about all the trust between us being completely destroyed.  To be completely honest, I was operating from a place of fear and felt that I was the one charming.



I will admit that, while not wholly unexpected, I am hurt and sad.  But, I do take comfort in knowing that I gave her the closure that she needed.

And, now for the rest of the story... .

My x and I ended up talking on the phone. I begged her to give us another chance. It's the very thing that she told me in the past that she needed to feel special. She rejected me.

She told me that she is really enjoying her new life and all of her new friends. She didn't specifically say it, but told me that they make her feel special because they pay so much attention to her.

None of that is actually important at this moment though. What is important is that I discovered something about myself and how I view love. For the past two months, I have felt more love for my x than I did when we were together. I realized this morning that is because my FOO taught me that love is cold, harsh, painful, and conditional. I was never loved just because I existed. The almost constant abuse and rejection when we were together is what I saw as love. When she was sweet, kind, nice, and caring, I didn't feel love from her. In fact, I pushed her away when she gave me those things. When she tried harder to pull me back in with love, I pushed away even harder. But, when she rejects me, I feel love.

So, now that I've been completely rejected and she no longer wants anything to do with me, I love her even more. I used to think that it was because no one likes being told that they aren't good enough, but for me that is particularly true. But, I know that in this particular case, it has nothing to do with me. I have not been rejected as a person. It isn't about the rejection, it's about my understanding of what love feels like.

Hey Meili - So very sorry to hear about the sudden turn in events. It was quite the undertaking to begin with. As, all the stories I've read about us 'going back' seem more balanced to the side of ... experiencing more difficulty. But, I'm sure you went into it with a certain understanding of that.  :)id applying the tools you've learned in here make it any easier the time around?

Part of me feels upset at her but i know its my own baggage w/ acceptance and I'll get over that. As,  'Going out in her terms' feels like a selfish act when you were such a better person for giving her closure. However,  I understand that they need to feel in control so by rejecting you, she gains part of her ego back. At least she didn't blame you for anything. And, that bodes well for the future the way I see it. She'll be back at some point... I'm sure of it.

I commend your awareness and self examination about  'how you view love'. And, perhaps in there is a reason to thankful for what she did to you by 'walking away'. It feels like you have new path for which to walk down in your healing. This discovery of what you define as love seems like a breakthrough.

Side note:

Oddly, i was watching a TED talk about long term relationship last night and the author did a study, throughout many cultures  and asked the question: "When do you feel closest to you partner?" And she found that the most common response across the boards was "When they are away from me, or when they return to me... " Perhaps that ALSO applies to you too at the moment as well?

Yes, perhaps that does apply to me right now.

Having an understanding of all of this does reduce the hurt. It didn't get rid of it though. I did go into all of this knowing how it will likely play out. Nothing has surprised me thus far. Well, except how I am responding to all of it. My begging is completely outside of my character. As a general rule, I would just respect her choice and move on. She complained about that in the past, so I thought I'd try something new.

She does blame me for everything. There has still been zero acknowledgement of anything that she did. Well, save and except for telling me how bad it hurts her to have someone act like she acted with me when I left. She apologized for acting that way. But, went right back to blaming me for everything and why she can't work on things now.

She still says that she loves and cares about me, but has nothing left to give me. I can certainly understand that. She told me earlier today how she gets over her r/s's in two weeks, but has been struggling with this one. She even talked to her mother today about it. It would truly surprise me if she ever came back though. 

The pain from the second loss of the r/s is almost as bad as it ending btw.

Hey man... .I can imagine I guess. Like opening the wound again. Certainly though there is some sense of closure? I guess I'd be hopeful the 2nd time around but, as we've learned being friends even healthy r/s takes some time . Perhaps this is myself advising myself but, I've been trying to start believing in 'giving it time'. As hard as it is to put into action, I've got to give it time. I've had not heard from my ex and honestly, I'm feeling like that's a good thing.

Be strong Miele, you're  solid individual and deserve nothing but the best in your life.

Yes, r/a take time and work. Everything that is worth anything does. Time is exactly what is in play with me.

I respected her goodbye and went back to the business of rebuilding my life and new future. To my surprise, she reached out to me again. She asked acknowledged that it is clear to her that neither of us is truly done with the r/s, but there is one major hurdle that I have put in place that prevents any hope of her devoting any energy to serious consideration of reconciliation or working on things.

She suggested that we cease communication whole we continue working on our own issues (she's continued to see our couples counselor since we split). Her suggestion was that we give it a few weeks and it we run into each other, naturally or by design) after a few weeks, we see what happens.

At first, I was elated at the opportunity.  But after several hours of ruminating about it, my insecurities jumped into high gear. Is she asking for the time to see what happens with her new supply? Did the contact stir too many painful emotions and this is her way of stopping that? Is she trying to see if I cut what became a cancer to our r/s out?

I have almost ruled out the second option. I had accepted her goodbye and had gone quiet; not responding to her attempts to contact. She then reached put to me with the offer. Was this just to ease her own pain? I'll never know.

What I do know is that I'm allowing all of this to trouble me. I'm not editing my thoughts or focusing on myself. So for the next few weeks I plan to focus in me and start to stay away from the things in my life that aren't working for me. If she contacts me again, I'll see where that goes.

I really wish that my therapist was in town so that I could meet with her to help me process all of this. Sadly she's not.  The next two weeks will be interesting that's for sure.

UGH! I can't sleep. I have completely reset the healing clock by contacting the x the other day.

I'm angry with myself for doing it, I'm angry with her for playing games, and I'm angry with myself for falling for them.

But, this brings up some interesting questions: Is she really playing games, or is it my own insecurities? More importantly, why am I so focused on her and what she may or may not being doing than I am on me and my recovery?

I took down all the pics of her that I had on social media tonight. I also took down all the pics of my other ex that she complained about the entire time we were together. I'm trying to remove the reminders of my past that just cause me pain these days.

I will admit that there's a part of me that wants her flying monkeys to tell her that the pics are gone.

Time to try to sleep again.

Yeah, Meile... I can relate. Although my pwBPD hasn't emailed me back, it has set back my healing. It's competely normal to feel that way... .It's like you have new and different material to ruminate about; new problems to solve. I guess the positive is that, it ended slightly better than the first time. So, with some time and distance you in a way have left the door slightly open. Rather than competely shut.

I'm still stuck thinking about my pwBPD. She hasn't replied to my email, which is better at this point. My T has said I'm still in the denial stage of my grief. I'm trying my hardest now to move this process along. It's not healthy for me to do this to myself.

It sounds like you are on the right path too. We're all here for you.

Well, the door has been pushed open. She contacted me this morning and told me that she's met someone and is trying to decide if she wants to give us one more chance. I can certainly understand her trepidation about this. I did involve another woman in the r/s after all. She's afraid that I'll do it again.

I'm just sitting her calmly, going on with my life, letting her decide. It's out of my hands at this point.

So, I had some interesting discussions with my uBPDexgf over the past 24 hours. I allowed myself to get sucked back into the drama.

The most interesting part was today when she told me that she suspects that I have BPD. I already knew that she suspected it, so it wasn't a shock. I listened, validated and told her that I understand why she thinks that. C-PTSD shares more than a few symptoms after all. After some discussion, I pointed out that she exhibits the symptoms of BPD. That didn't go over well, but I didn't really expect it to.

So, we're back to goodbye. I'm fine with it. Continuing my work on myself and my issues is the order of the day. I realized after chatting with her via text messages for 12 hours yesterday that I need to revisit the idea that of codependency and why I tolerate bad behavior. When I started communicating again with her, I had a plan in place to stop chasing. But, once it started, I had this overwhelming impulse to try to make her feel safe and that she wouldn't be abandoned by me. That's when my plan went completely out of the window.

Hey Meili, Why are you giving her all the power to decide?  Why is it "out of your hands"?  It's up to you, my friend, to figure out what you want to see happen, not her.  That may feel uncomfortable or a burden, but that's the way it is.  You're the Captain of your own Ship.  Got it?

LuckyJim

I have already decided, so now it's up to her to make her decision of what she wants to do. If she wants to keep walking, that's fine. If she wants to try to work things out, I'm open to it.

This really isn't a "power" thing, it's about individual choice and the right to make one. I have no power over what she will do. I can only accept her decision.

I'm piloting my own ship. If she decides to travel the waters with me she has that option. Until she decides that I'll keep doing my thing. Who knows, if she takes too long, I might meet someone that peaks my interest and I'll turn the rudder.

Sounds good, Meili.  Good luck and keep us posted!  LJ

Posting just to vent... .

After the conversation about which one of us is BPD and which one of us is projecting, I received a couple of emails from her.  The first was the typical "I want the fantasy with you, I love you, but I can't do this anymore, so goodbye" that I'm becoming very familiar with. Another was a claim that I didn't like her. I tried to assure her that I did, and that I love her, and offered to go to counseling with her or whatever. She said that she needs time. I am going to respect that.

Here I sit though, missing her and chatting with her, wondering what she's doing, and all of the other things that I know won't help me but are natural for me. I'm guessing that there's a cross between codependency and love at play here right now. I want to reach out and try to soothe the hurt from earlier today, but I also know that I must respect her boundary. Thankfully, my T reassured me during my first session with her that I don't have to act on each and every one of my impulses!

I'm trying to stay centered and grounded. It's really kinda weird, I'm trying to remain detached while also trying to reconcile the r/s. Maybe that's healthy though. Maybe that's my love for myself trying to work with my love for her?

I dunno. I do know that I'm hurting a little right now, but unlike in the past I'm not ashamed that I keep trying with her. I believe that she's worth it as long as she keeps trying too.

Geez man.  How do you do it?  I got so frustrated trying to communicate honestly with my ex that I couldn't take another minute of it.  You're punishing yourself by allowing her to continue manipulating you.  That is all these pwBPD do, they manipulate.  They are NEVER not manipulating.  You really need to decide if you're going to put your efforts into detaching or reconciling.  Being conflicted is almost worse than accepting it's over.  It's certain more tumultuous to be torn in between trying to make it work and accepting that it won't.  

I wasn't always here Wize. I used to allow her to push my buttons and I would take it all personally. I don't do that anymore. Well, at least I try not to.

A person can only be manipulated if they allow themselves to be. I've taken that power away from her. What I've discovered is that if I enforce my boundaries the situation is far more manageable. When I don't, chaos ensues and we've reset the clock; for both of us.

By accepting responsibility for only my own actions, I have been able to take control of my life back. I don't think that I'm punishing myself. I am hurting because I miss her, and worried about what her ultimate choice will be, but that's really all that I'm feeling with regard to all of this.

As for the a hard-line between detaching and reconciling. I have a different view on that than you do. Part of me must detach from the r/s if there is any hope in reconciliation. If I don't detach, I will just get sucked right back in and the cycle will continue as it has.

By detaching, I've learned a great deal about what are my own emotions and what have been projected on me. I am learning self-control and self-confidence. Also, I'm learning to release that which is out of my control. These are all tools that will be necessary if there is any reconciliation. More important, if there isn't, then I will need the to move forward in my life without her.

I made some threads and posts like this one.  The mods moved them to the "conflicted" board or the "improving the relationship" board.  Because you're not detaching from a failed relationship.  You're conflicted.

But, I'm not conflicted. I'm very clear on where I am and where I'm going. If she wants to come along for the ride, that's on her. I've already made my choice.

Oh, and I have a thread or threads on the "saving" board too. Different things are discussed there. Here I discuss how I'm feeling as I detach/prepare to detach and heal the wounds.

You know, at least you understand that the situation has to change. Thing is, I had to realize that the only way to make the situation better was to leave.  I don't know if your SO is in BPD therapy or what.  But I understand where you're at because that's where I was.  Standing on that cliff, looking over and understanding that if you don't jump off into the water below, the lion will attack you.  You're still deciding how long you can handle being mauled before you jump into the water.  That's the conundrum.  Because you love the lion, deeply. 

I understand that you need to get to a point where you realize that all your tactics, ultimatums and tools aren't going to make your pwBPD any better, they aren't going to make her love you better.  All your tactics will achieve is shifting and readjusting the abusive dynamic already in place.  That's strictly my opinion. But hell, we have to try. 

That's the thing though Wize, I am not giving any ultimatums or using any tactics or tools to try to change her. It's about my accepting that her issues are part of who she is. I have no question of her love for me. Just because she's afraid does not mean that she doesn't love me.

As for the abuse, one can only be abused in this situation if they allow themselves to be abused. I think that's the difference here between your way of thinking and my own. You view it as a lion about to attack and maul me. I view it as having protections in place to prevent myself from being mauled. People have lived in the wild for years and survived when they know what to do to protect themselves.

Also, I don't carry around any resentment or anger towards my x. She is who she is. I can either accept and love her, or I can move on. I have chosen the former, regardless of whether or not she choose to come along. I will always accept and love her.

I understand and respect your choice to leave. I had made that choice when I first came here. The more that I've learned about disorders, the more that I've learned to accept things as they are. I was able to see my role in all of this and accept my accountability for everything that happened. She wasn't in it alone and I wasn't a saint.

Oh, I get it.  I just got tired of lugging all that armor around.  I want a relationship with someone I don't need to protect myself from.  So I jumped off the cliff.  It was and still is pretty freaking scary.  

But, Wize, any healthy r/s will require you to have and enforce boundaries, have a strong sense of self, accountability for your own actions, and acceptance of the other person. That doesn't change just because the person isn't disordered.

In fact, if you don't have those things, the r/s will be just as doomed.

You're right.  BPD relationships are just like any normal relationship.  So why are we all at bpdfamily?  All we needed to do was realize that these relationship are like any healthy r/s.  At least, according Meili. I guess I'm just a big p#ssy for bailing on my BPD wife. All I needed to do was be a better, stronger person... .like you. Darn.

Wize, I'm sorry that I've upset you. I didn't mean to convey that a r/s with a pwBPD is the same as one with a non. They aren't.

Also, I didn't mean to insinuate that my situation is anywhere close to yours or compare you and I. And, I certainly didn't mean to come across as claiming that I'm any better than you. We are completely different people with different lives. One is not better than the other, just different.

I can see where you might think that I was saying something about "being a better/stronger person." Again, I didn't intend for there to be any comparison. I have not lived your life, nor experienced what you have. I cannot know what you know.

I just know what I know and know that I believe that the things that I listed are important for any r/s to be healthy. I didn't have any of those things when I left my r/s. I didn't have them before for that matter. That's what got me into this mess in the first place. I am striving to be a stronger and better person as a result. Being able to have a healthy, stable r/s with someone is my goal.

LJ, I've been giving this some more thought. Perhaps I am giving her the power to decide my fate, but not in the way that I first thought when I read your post.

In many ways, I am sitting still, waiting for her to decide. I shouldn't do that at all. I shouldn't wait. If she decides that she wants to contact me, I should deal with it then.

But, that's not what I've been doing. I've gone back to jumping every time my phone notifies me that I have received a text message or an email. My heart beats with anticipation. Then sinks with disappointment when it isn't her. Yes, clearly, I am waiting and still giving her power over me.

I have not fully detached from the situation and the old r/s. I'm still harboring expectations. I'm still focusing on the wrong things? I'm still asking the wrong questions. Like today she told me that she needs to think. I've spent the better part of the day wondering what that actually means?

I need to regain my focus.

I was a little upset earlier.  In fact, I have been for the past couple of days.  Why? Because I've had to interact with my toxic wife to discuss the divorce proceedings. She's like a snake who introduces venom into my bloodstream and I start feeling sick. And I have to spend the next few days hashing stuff out with her.  Ugh.

Meili, I just hope you realize that what you're dealing with isn't normal and it's bad for you. By staying attached to her you're doing harm to yourself and you don't deserve that. You know you can't trust her. And you know that whatever she says to you, you cannot take it at face value. 

You're in a relationship with someone who spins you around until you're dizzy, and every time that happens you have to regain you're footing.  For me, my BPD exwife spun me around so much I got used to being dizzy all the time. Not knowing which way up and which way is down. Such a horrible feeling. 

Like LJ said, she's doing this to you and you're letting her.  I really hope you go no contact soon, for your own health.  Try 2 weeks to start with.  You know you need to do this. 

Thank you Wize, I know how stressful a normal divorce is. And, actually, I know how stressful a divorce from a pwBPD is (that would be my second exwife).

I'm completely aware that what I'm dealing with is not normal. The r/s wasn't normal, I am not normal, my x isn't normal, and what I'm trying to do isn't normal. In fact, the only normal thing about this is my motivation: Because I want to do it for me and because it's what I want.

It took me quite a bit of time and thought to figure out what my motivation behind all of this was. At first it FOG. I worked through that. Then I had to look at the codependency reasons: I am a rescuer, I wanted to save her, I hate being alone and lonely. I had to realize and accept that I cannot rescue or save her and that until I fix some of my other issues, I'll feel alone and lonely regardless. I'm still working through my codependency issues. Those are going to take time. Then there was the good, ole "I love her." I had to question how I could love someone who abused me? It is because in those moments between idealization and devaluation this wonderful woman resides. While the idealization is nice, the period between is where I fell in love. So, if I can find a way to minimize the effects and provide a semblance of consistency, I might be able to have more of what I love.

I'm not convinced that I agree with all of this being unhealthy for me. To the contrary, thus far, it's been the healthiest thing that I've ever done for myself. It has caused me to examine all aspects of my psyche. Some were easy, most are taking time to delve deeper into. I have also discovered many things that I truly want and don't want in my life.

I'm neither in a r/s nor am I dizzy. I'm well aware of what is happening and the likelihood of failure. I'm even more aware that I'll probably never be given the chance to find out. This is why I say that I'm not conflicted. It is all really clear to me. So what if I have to regroup and regain some footing each time? That isn't her doing, that's my own. That's my own failure for not keeping things in check. I have much to learn still about myself and triggers. But, I'm willing to do the work regardless of what she decides to do with her life.

I'm struggling today to deal with some of the changes that I've been making in my life. All of this is so new and foreign. I've never really been in control of my own life, so this is hard.

I'm not used to asking for help with my needs. I'm really not used recognizing them and meeting them myself. I must have hugged my inner child twenty times in the past 12 hours. Poor scared kid! At least my inner critic has shut up and my outer critic has quieted down.

Today I'm doing the normal post-breakup morning stuff as I continue to move deeper into detachment. I am missing who she was between the extremes. I am missing watching her cook and doing other things that she enjoys. The quiet times when we were just in the same room together. The sound of her voice when she wasn't engaged in histrionics. Things like that.

I will admit that it is nice to no longer be focused on the anger that I felt for so long for how she treated me. No longer am I holding onto all of the times that I literally pleaded with her to stop abusing me and to pay attention to me. For her to stop neglecting me the way that my mother did. And, the frantic attempts to hold onto the r/s that would swing from begging, crying, and pleading to raging, insulting, and demonizing. Likewise, I'm no longer holding onto the idealization of how perfect of a woman she was. (I'm sure that was stressful for her too.) It amazes me that the three opposing images of the same person can reside in my head with complete disconnect between them.

I have let go of the shame, guilt, and regret for the things that I have done. They have been replaced with compassion and sympathy for what she experienced.

I've moved into quiet mourning for what could have been. The simple sadness that is borne of failed dreams. The anxiety that comes from starting anew.

Hey Meili, I'm glad to hear you are giving more thought to my previous post in the spirit I intended, which was out of a concern for your well being.  Some of my posts, I know, are pretty direct and pointed, though I think that sometimes it helps to hear something said plainly when have a lot on your plate.  Hope I didn't overwhelm you, because  I've been in your shoes, believe me, and I understand what you are going through.  It sounds like you are on your way to finding the right path, which is your task.  Keep us posted and we'll help you on your new journey.

LuckyJim

Thank you LJ, sometimes it takes me a minute to see past my initial interpretation of words.

I was posting on the "deciding" board as Wize suggested, and something occurred to me; I'm sad.

I'm sad because I brought my own issues into the r/s and my x only got to see the parts that I was allowing them to control and she'll never get to experience the changes that have occurred postmortem.

I'm sad because of the pain that I caused her because of those issues. I accept that I cannot change any of that, but I'm still sad.

In my mind, I'm going to choose to believe that she'd be happy about them and for me. It saddens me to know that she won't be able to reap the benefits of the changes that she became the catalyst for.

Hi Meili

Interesting thread.

As some of our members have said in older threads we all work through these relationships in different ways. Some of us need to revisit our relationship repeatedly until we've made sense of our feelings and our behaviour. Everyone has to find their own way and they're entitled to do that without judgement and reproach.

But sometimes when we read the stories of other members and we recognise behaviour similar to our own it can trigger us. We can feel a compulsion to try and get them to avoid making the mistakes that we made.

A few observations.

Idealisation. Focussing on the best bits of our partner was often a useful survival technique that helped us navigate through the really dark times. Non's do this too. Reaching a genuine emotional acceptance of the truth or the reality of our exes personality - good and bad - isn't easy especially when there's a disorder involved. It challenges our beliefs about the unique connection we felt and whether we were really special to our ex. Did they really love us?

Rescuing. That's a big one for many of us particularly if deep down we really want someone to rescue us. At an subconscious level it's transactional. I'll save you and you'll save me. And then there's the power dynamic. Do we really want to save our partners? Or do we want them to be the perfect partner they showed us they could be - for brief period of the relationship? The problem with rescuing is that it typically ends up leaving deep hurt and disappointment on both sides. The healthier alternative - rescuing ourselves - can feel like hard and lonely work, especially when we feel we've lost what we hoped would be our lifelong cheerleader.

I think a disordered relationship can fill up a lot of space and when it ends it often leaves a feeling of profound emptiness. We're left with hard questions and difficult choices and we're on our own. It's very understandable that we can be drawn back even though part of recognises that it's unhealthy.

Thanks for sharing

Reforming

Thank you for the response Reforming. I'm not sure what you were getting at though. Could you please explain?

I agree that I've had to revisit my r/s several times to get a better grasp on my feelings and actions. The main one being why I pushed my x away as much as I did. Part of that was easy. She would cause me so much pain and nothing that I tried worked, so I felt that I had no other option but to set away. But, the biggest one, the one that neither she nor I have been able to reconcile is why I held onto my friend so closely when my x kept telling me that it was destroying our r/s?

I have all but determined that it was my own abandonment fears (mixed with a healthy does of passive aggression) that caused that. I never felt worthy of my x, so I was always certain that she would leave me. I wasn't afraid to be intimate with her, to the contrary, I was and am completely open to accepting her love.

Idealization - I don't idealize my x (at least I don't think that I do), if that's what you were getting at. I know all too well her good and her bad. The cycle and her triggers are easy to see. I have not forgotten how horrible the bad times were for me. The thing is that C-PTSD and BPD share many of the same basic components and symptoms. The major difference between the two is that BPD contains the elements of perceived betrayal and victimization. I feel neither of those. But, suffering from C-PTSD gives me a unique perspective on my x and her choices. It makes me far more tolerant of her behavior because I understand it on an intimate level. So, it isn't an idealization of her, it is a radical acceptance of her.

Rescuing - Ah, yes, this definitely applies. I wanted mutual rescuing. I probably still do to some extent. From this, resentment was borne. I'm learning to quash my codependency so that I stop trying to rescue others and am able to rescue myself.

Yes, the ending of the disordered r/s did leave a major void and has left me on my own. I'll have to give this more thought, but my initial reaction is that I've been thankful for this time on my own. Without it, I never would have been able to dig into my issues and the problems that I've created for myself.

The reality, for me, is that I'm still in love with the woman that I have radically accepted; the complete woman, the good and the bad. Also, I'm enjoying the changes that in myself that I'm accomplishing and learning to accept. I would love to share them with her because without her they would not have been possible (at least at this point in my life). Yes, it saddens me that she's chosen another path. I know that I'll be fine on my own though and I'll have healthier r/s in the future as a result.

Even with that knowledge, today I'm struggling with the fact that ultimately she has abandoned me. It's understandable that she has though based what she has to deal with and the pain that I caused her. I don't blame her for that.

Hey Meili, Suggest you revisit my earlier post.  Your r/s didn't work out, but casting yourself in the victim role because she allegedly "abandoned" you is a passive stance, in my view.  Why are you making excuses for her to the effect that it's "understandable" why she left?  Why are you blaming yourself?  Suggest you stop beating yourself up and determine what is within and what is without your power to change.  Then focus on that which is within your control and let go of the rest, is my advice.

LuckyJim

LJ, I take that stance because it is the way that I feel. What I'm realizing since I wrote that though, is that it's probably my mother's abandoning me that is really at play here. I have never been "good enough" for my mother, and she neglected me. So, as a young child, I learned that not being good enough caused people to neglect me.

I made huge mistakes in my r/s, and that's why I'm blaming myself. My x has told me that the mistakes are probably unforgivable after telling me that she toyed with the idea of reconciliation and had gone NC when I wrote that (there were a couple friendly-ish texts this morning). So, since I have not learned new ways of thinking and have not been able to reprogram that part of my brain yet, that's where it goes.

I try to only focus on the parts that I can control. I guess that I'm not clear on what you're seeing that I'm focusing on that might be out of my control.

Hi Meili

I didn't mean to be judgemental and you deserve respect and support for the work you're doing on yourself. I was just observing that some of us need to reengage a number of times before we find the closure. There's nothing wrong with that.

At some level I think we all have to take responsibility for our choices. This is the foundation for growth. You're clearly working hard to take responsibility for your own behaviour which is very brave and healthy. Do you think she is willing to do the same?

I realise that this doesn't guarantee a positive outcome, but it creates the possibility of one.

I spent a long, long time making excuses for my ex. Childhood sexual abuse, various traumatic episodes and a genetic predisposition to mental illness but it didn't really help her heal because it allowed her to avoid taking responsibility for her behaviour.  Ultimately I ended up enabling her rather than encouraging and inspiring change by working on myself.

I don't know if the outcome would have been any different but I realise now I was far too focussed on her and her dysfunction. Over time I also realised I had become very critical of myself - the relationship was quite damaging.  It's taken a lot of effort to address this and I needed a safe space to do this. I couldn't have done this if I was still engaged with her so I detached. I'm not saying that this is right for you - but I needed that detachment to re-centre myself, process and rebuild.

You clearly have a lot of compassion for her. Do you feel that your giving the same degree compassion to yourself?

Thanks for sharing

Reforming

Excellent insight and questions Reforming, and thank you for your support.

I know that she's seeing a counselor. I know that she told me that it really threw her for a loop when I said that I think that she might be a pwBPD. I don't know if she'll do anything with that or not.

I try not to focus too much on her, what she's doing, how she's dealing with her issues, etc. None of that is within my control.

I try to give myself the same, if not more, compassion that I do to her. This is a new skill that I'm learning, so it's still difficult.

Now you're getting somewhere, Meili.   :light:

Once you identify an issue, as you have done, then you can recognize the pattern and make positive adjustments.

Concerning your question about what might be out of your control, I would suggest that your whatever your Ex decides to do is outside of your control, right?

LuckyJim

Yes, whatever she does is outside my control.

I also realized something today, I keep trying to view what she may or may not be doing through my own filters as I have done so many times in the past. I'm making assumptions and bracing for impact still. I really need to stop that. It isn't fair to her and it's hurtful to me. I'm working on living in the moment.

*mod*

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