BPDFamily.com

I am married, but not because I want to be married, but because I have not yet been able to get myself out.

I see things as follows, I put it in list form because I like working through lists.

1.   R/S was built on abuse….U. narcissistic Borderline W. and victim Husband (me)

2.   I have now understood this dynamic and I’m working on getting better.

3.   W has no interest in introspection or improving r/s and so I am on my own.

4.   I have always ‘lived ‘ for others

5.   This is a form codependency (right?)

6.   I need to work through my co-D issues

7.   Place my own needs on a stronger footing.

8.   Focus on my needs

9.   Choose the best options for ME.

10.   Like Snakes and ladders.

11.   ……lose concentration and end up listening to my Co-D voice….Slide down a big snake to (6.)

12.   Throw the dice and start again

I am aware, I like to think, of what is going on, and the work that is needed, but 6. Onwards is hard.

Any encouragement, shares, pointers gratefully received.

FWIW boundaries (OK a little late) are being enforced, and chaos is on the whole reduced, so daily life is pretty cool…... but then that makes me (real me, co-D me?) say to myself, well if it’s cool why do I want out?

Cool is Ok, but those things healthy r/s are supposed to be about,  care, empathy, reasonableness, fair exchange, sharing, openness, honesty, even saying nice things are all absent.

Then I lose track……

The r/s keeps my head in a permanent spin, non-stop analysis.

That cannot be the basis of anything healthy surely?

Thanks for listening

Hey EG-


Putting someone else's needs ahead of our own for a time can be compassionate, caring, supportive, contributing, or other descriptors, and when we do it full time it can be unhealthy.  Then again, some folks enjoy 'being in service' to others, the humility and the connection of it, but think about that, there really isn't such a thing as selfless service, because when we serve others and get a feel-good buzz out of it, it's no longer selfless.

Anyway, in the terms of a relationship, we can focus on one person's needs exclusively, to the exclusion of our own, to the point we don't even acknowledge we have needs, and even further, we get a sense of identity from being the one meeting and 'fixing' someone else's needs.  That's codependency.  So you are getting your needs met, in a backhanded way, and there's a reason you're susceptible to that mode of meeting needs.  A pairing of a borderline with a codependent is common, borderlines can always have needs that need tending to, a nice fit for someone who is wired to get their needs met by meeting someone else's.  It's said every relationship needs a gardener and a rose, not sure if that's true totally, but it's to the extreme with borderline and a codependent.

So when you say you need to work through my co-D issues what does that mean?  What if you focused exclusively on your needs for a day, how would you feel?  Selfish?  Rude?  Uncaring?  Your tendency to put someone else's needs ahead of your own was probably there before you met your wife; where did that come from?  This can be an awesome period of self discovery if you say so, and good for you for enforcing boundaries, that's a piece too.  Take care of you!

I think most of us here would qualify as a co-dependant in some way.

I learned in T. that i have spent my whole life focusing on taking into account other peoples issues and emotions more then my own, that it actually feels akward now to care for myself and really support myself, and connect with and respect my own needs.

I guess i had to be the strong one pretty early on in my life and a part of me had to be abandonned to be able to do that. Its probably that abandonned part that i found complementary within my BPDex before i knew i had it hidden in me too.

Getting rid of co-dependancy for me is not only a work of steps like you outline, but also trying to rediscover that abandonned part, and giving what it needed all along. Until then, you will unconsciously look to retrieve that through codependancy

Thanks for your input. You raise some intersting points, I have always tended (my headmaster age 8 said I was gifted with kindness  ) to put others first. It doesn't make you a great negotiator or businessman, but in general my dealings with the world (other than my mother... .:)) have been OK.  Enter a pw BPD and my model of interpersonal relations gets blown out of the water, I do not have the skills to cope. But even when I get better at coping, a foundation of shared values and goals is not going to magically appear, hence my thoughts about final destination of the marriage.

I have started to put my needs first and things are going fine. W. would not agree though!

Caring for oneself or others needs to be a choice, and the other person needs to understand and respect the choice... .this is something both I and uB/NPD W have struggled with. I think i'm getting better at understanding how these interactions are supposed to work.

R/S with Mother (mine) was never great and I think it was here that I learned pleasing as a tactic for making my world better. I learned young and adopted the formula never understanding what actually was going on.

Apart from poor reception from W. on my newfound assertiveness, I have not noticed any downside from others on putting ones point of view, wishes out there. Most people can cope with it.



I am reading a book by Charles Whitfield on Co-D and he has given some tasks to undertake... about recognising triggers that make you behave in a certain way.

Need to come back to you on this.

Agree, woundedPheonix and FromHtoH, most of us Nons probably have codependent tendencies; otherwise, we probably wouldn't be in a r/s with a pwBPD.  You could say it runs with the territory.  

Hey e.g., I would say that the most important step in terms of overcoming codependency is awareness.  Notice when you are putting someone's else's needs ahead of your own.  Pause, breathe and ask yourself whether you are care taking out of an unhealthy sense of obligation or duty, or out of guilt or fear.  Concur w/HtoH that you probably had this tendency before you met your W, so in a sense you were hard-wired for a BPD r/s.

I would add that care taking someone else is a way to avoid caring for oneself.  Usually, this stems from feelings of low self-esteem and low self-worth, because on some level you feel unworthy.  The key, in my view, is learning self-love and self-acceptance, which sounds easy but is actually pretty hard to do.  I suspect that, on some level, many of us get into a BPD r/s because we think that's what we deserve, i.e., that we consider it OK to be treated like a doormat.

Hope some of these thoughts might strike a chord w/you.

LuckyJim

Yep, mine wasn't with my mother either.  And good self-awareness!  It's helpful to hear that we are always doing the best we can in a situation, with the tools we have at the time, and you chose pleasing as the best way to get your needs met in that situation.  The challenge can be that we use those same tactics and tools later in life, where they don't work as well or at all, and there's an inertia to something we've been doing for decades.  And the gift of a relationship with a borderline can be that it brings all of that to the forefront so it can't be denied anymore, which can inspire a period of profound growth, which is the good news yes?

This is huge point for all to realize.  If we (the nons) start making more emotionally healthy decisions, and the borderlines  choose to stay in the r/s, they will usually get "dragged kicking and screaming" to a healthier place. 

While that is not our primary goal.  Our goal is for us to get healthier.  Sometimes it is a good byproduct of us doing better things.

When I look back at the assumptions I had and the way I approached relationships a couple years ago and compare that to now, it's a huge difference.

FF

EarlGrey,

Love the name by the way. I can totally related to what you are going through and  how you got there.

"R/S with Mother (mine) was never great and I think it was here that I learned pleasing as a tactic for making my world better. I learned young and adopted the formula never understanding what actually was going on."

This right here is how I got into a marriage with BPD and was abused as well as someone I love to pieces giving me silent treatment now when I found a broken trust.

I am now learning that I always put others needs first. I love being full of kindness, compassion and willing to go the extra mile to make a relationship work.

Now I want to heal, and be in a relationship where love, trust and each pulling their own weight. I want no drama, rages, silent treatment ( be an adult, if you need time hours, days or weeks tell me and we go NC to give time to settle and think don't treat me as if I am not there, ghosting is abuse and not OK)

This post is not about me, but you just wanted to let you know I have been there. Walking the journey to healing and love of myself.

I hope you have peace, and rest on your journey as well. You are important and need care as well. If she can't give that to you, examine that and see what plan you want to do and go from there.

Is there some small goals or things important to you, that you can write down and start doing. When things escalate do you have an escape plan? For the hour, like going for a run, for a day going out with friends or worse what is your long term goal in looking to heal your Codependency?

Thanks... .LOL ( you summarized my life in a few short sentences and made me understand) that is exactly what happened to me having been a caretaker to my UBPD for many years dealing with rages, delusional thinking, crazy making, poor problem solving, accidents the works. I thought most was due to a lung injury so put up with . Nope, now when I put boundaries etc he went crazier and left. Which is great we didn't have a love, romantic or relationship in many years. I was FOG and guilt tripped into doing everything for house, family, budget.

Now I am done. Life is going to be wonderful as I will make it that way. I am responsible for my own happiness and will do it. Sad thing is no matter how hard I tried it was never right, enough or etc.

Now going through a silent treatment of someone that I loved and was close to for 7 years that helped me through lots of the caretaking and I was there for him. Found a broken trust. Confronted kindly, to now silent treatment. I sent nice notes, letters, texts, giving him space. Took on myself to apologize, try to be the bigger to nothing again. Guess I am not healed as still over trying to fix something with no apology or respect back, and he is the one that did the breaking of trust... .sigh

I am reading co-dependency by C L Whitfield... .he talks about 'original pain' and 'core issues'. I am poking about here, but doing much of the work alone as there is no group stuff in my part of the world - France.

Maybe you can suggest other good reading sources?

What I am really looking for though is action on my side, and my reading and work is probably my way of procrastinating.

I like working on my home, and I know when there is a job that is a bit tricky or technically challenging, I will read and read and put off doing the thing.

Good news is all those tricky jobs have eventually been tackled.  :)

Yes, it's great to learn and fill up our heads with a bunch of good information, the right information can be life-changing, although learning is only part of it and not really worth much unless we then take action.  And when we use continued learning as a way to avoid taking action our fear has got us, we end up being driven by fear, in the States we have a term for that: analysis paralysis.

So simpler is usually better.  As we shift the focus from our ex to ourselves and from the past to the future, it's important to develop a vision for a future that we want to live, the life of our dreams; what would that look like for you?  What would you be doing, who would you be doing it with, how would you feel, what would it look like?  And then, as we fully associate to that vision we can make it big and bright and compelling, so compelling that it pulls us towards it.  Next, take one step in that direction.  And then another.  We're going on faith initially, one foot in front of the other, but after a while we notice progress, which builds momentum, and pursuit of the life of our dreams becomes a journey, one we want to take, in fact the journey becomes more important than the destination, it becomes our life, with the goal a beacon to give us direction when we need it, and one day we stop and look back at how far we've come, and realize that our ex has faded into the past and we didn't really notice, in fact it just doesn't matter because we're living a fulfilling, empowered life of our own design, and we are now free.

So what does the life of your dreams look like EG?  What can you do TODAY in moving towards it?

Huge point!   This is the key to getting out of the FOG and towards a healthier life

You should ALWAYS have a clearly thought out answer to the following question.

"The next step in my journey towards a healthier me is... ."

It could be as simple as calling to make an appointment with a T

It's just one step... .then another... .  The steps should be relatively easy, even if the journey is hard.

FF

My friend asks me (often) so what do you really want to do?

And I have to say, that I am not very far away from where I want to really be.

Materially OK (prenup too), like my house and location... .

Bottom line is I want to get rid of toxic W and (sad to say) toxic enmeshed (with M.) SD.

Saw a T a while ago... .he said "I have magic wand, what do you want me to do for you?"... .I said pretty much the same thing.

Then I can carry on being a dad S18, D7, without the pervasive jealousy, and abuse.

Focus on my own desires and wishes and needs and start building a healthier life... .

And today... .well I think focussing on all of this will help.

Maybe I need to put a date in diary and aim for getting the whole process into motion on THAT day.

Otherwise i fear I may just be become  AP (analysis paralysis).

So can you put that date in your diary right now, before you reply, so when you do reply you can say you did it?  Nudge... .

ah! sure just... .need to check on school holidays... .lol

But maybe a date will get me focussed.

And Brexit shows what is possible! A sign maybe.

It is leaving a lot of Eurpean leaders very grumpy - being dumped by the Brits!

Yes.  Nice focus shift.  To shift our focus another way, this is Friday, and the difference between this Friday and last Friday is we're all one week closer to death.  Always true, whether we focus on it or not.  So if we were to focus on that for just a minute, what would we do about it?

 I’d like to share a couple more thoughts.

Wedding night was very confusing for me (not the least because it became very argumentative). Later, a romantic weekend away turned very sour……with all my since gathered info. I believe I was reacting angrily to the emotional unavailability of my W. ‘No I don’t want to be too close’.

Our conversations and exchanges were going no further than curtains, colours, destinations, food, well anything that didn’t involve us, well certainly not me anyhow. I felt like a driver, a guide, a translator,a pal! Excluded. I didn’t have the VIP access, just stay behind the line please.

Nothing has changed (except my perception and understanding) and that is just the way it is.

Now despite the lack of emotional intimacy, sex has never been an issue. It has never been withheld, always possible, functional - and at the same time it has never been intimate and loving. I guess a kind of duty sex. Sometimes W. initiates….but the rules are still the same.

Is this normal……and I would be fibbing if I said it didn’t go on the ‘the reasons for staying list’, which btw has just this one entry!

Now, another thing. It happens sometimes that uB/NPD W does get the drift that she has gone too far in some respects of being nasty, and that her own behaviour  requires an act of remorse.

There is no ‘sorry’ or other direct means of redressing the situation, but her way acting remorseful is ironing (at least that is my interpretation).……and after such an episode, a pile of freshly ironed shirts (mine) will be put silently away.

There seems to be a paradox here, and maybe it is a facet of PDs? Despite her narcissistic/borderline/superior way with her intimate family in general, she can act in the opposite role and become the pleaser, and actually give something (sex and ironing).

But it makes me think am I just too picky…... sex and shirts, isn’t that enough to give life meaning. I’m trying not to be too ironic, and maybe others might find enough there, and on good days (minutes more likely) I think about my ‘staying’ list and think ah! It’s not too bad. But the bad days vastly outnumber the good!

I saw the film Gaslight (1940s) recently, and the heroine, Paula, under the ‘care’ of her manipulative husband slowly becomes accustomed and accepts her dysfunctional world. It takes an outsider, the detective, to break the spell, and explain that all doubts she had were created by her H.

I live in a world like Paula’s, and some days I get a glimpse of life beyond……... and it looks good.

Thanks for listening.

Hey earl, Why do you stay?  I doubt it's just for sex and ironed shirts!  Presumably there is some payoff for you to remain in the r/s.  What is it?  It sounds like things have been rocky since the get-go, your wedding night.  There is a paradox here, as you note, because those suffering from BPD are good at hiding their disorder and can be quite charming when they want to be.  Often the outside world has no idea what a pwBPD is like behind closed doors.  My BPDxW was known affectionately as the unofficial "Mayor" of our small town, due to her gregarious personality and humorous banter.  Little did our neighbors know what a nightmare she was to live with.  You know what I mean, I'm sure!

LuckyJim

Hey Jim, there is no pay off. Period. Emotional financial social contribution... .big fat zero.

What I believe there is, is a slowly diminishing awareness of the chaos... .like in the film Gaslight. See it if you haven't.

The charm, as you say, is disarming, coupled with the confusion etc etc. you can lose your way.

I have probably lost my way for too long.

As H2H says above, get planning. Get a date. That is what I am doing but venting here is good for me too.

Thanks to you.

Hey earl grey, keep up the good work!  Yes, posting here can be quite helpful.  Works for me!  LJ

Yes I am working on things, and I like to think things are moving in the right direction.

I am working on me, and doing my best to stop controlling situations and people, and I have a better understanding of what that is about.

Then today crash!

My W. starts checking, managing, controlling D19 (my SD) about running her car - there is stuff on another thread about car oil; it made me go "snap"!

Anyhow, I start trying to give my W. the fine ideas about stepping back, NOT controlling her D. Of course I get it in the neck for being negative and unconstructive, but the irony of the thing, I am actually trying to control my W's controlling behaviour of her D.

Not quite sure what to do here, stand back too, admire their dysfunction, watch them battle it out?

All comments much appreciated.

Step 1.  Realize that you are entering a triangle and that could complicate things.

Step 2.  Have you coached your daughter on best ways to relate?  Don't do this in front of wife.

Step 3.  If you think wife's behavior is out of line, it is ok to speak to her about parenting, but do it later, in private.  Practice message ahead of time, short, simple and to the point.  It's a request, not a demand.   Perhaps even listen to her first to make sure you understand the concern.


Here is big point.  Many times there is a legit concern.  I'm a gearhead, so when I hear about people not checking oil or taking care of a machine... .I'm concerned.  When they break it, I'm involved in fix... .or guiding my boys to fix.


Boundaries apply.  d19 is adult.  Can do as she pleases.  If it is your car, then you get to say how it is used.   D19 can make choice to get her own car, or abide by rules.

I should find the other thread when I have time.

FF

":)19" is another way of saying adult in her own relationship with your wife... .

Let them be.

I have taught myself that when my wife gets disordered in her behavior, the only best way is to keep conversations at a maximum number of two participants.  Otherwise, you create a "drama triangle" - also known by other names, it means there is a victim, persecutor, and a rescuer.  You don't want to be any of those.

Observe if you must, follow up separately if you feel right about it.  But, in the heat of BPD conversations, there's no good to come of adding in.

IMHO.

Thanks FF for your thoughts. In reply... .

Step 1... .OK

Step 2... .I talk to SD but SD fears any kind of stance against her M. will be seen as anti family and bad. I stand against M. at times on general issues, but SD never comes with me.

Step 3... .probably straight out of the B/NPD rule book... .W says 'I am not out of line'. 'You are out of line'. End of!

Here it was the car, sometimes it is boyfriend, money, eating... .but the scenario stays the same.

Mum knows better than you about what is good for you.

Yep... .agree

Earlygrey,

Talk to D19.  I just want to confirm... this is your bio daughter... .correct?  So even though she is an adult, life lessons can be presented by Dad.

Don't make it about your wife.  Make it about your daughter.  Decisions/actions based on fear of another persons reactions are generally bad decisions. 

1.  Teach her to make healthy decisions and let the rest of the world sort itself out.  Again... .this is life lesson, not lesson about your wife.  If your wife chooses to let behave in such a way to allow your daughter to apply a life lesson, that is your wife's choice, not your daughters.    :)     

2.  Do NOT confront your wife.  Talk to her gently... .in the right moment.  If she fires back... .don't engage.

"It would me a lot to me if you could speak in softer tones to D19"  or some other observable behavior.  Make it about a behavior, not an attitude or emotion.  Treat your wife as the adult and you need help with parenting.

Listen... .it may not work.   We'll try another tactic.

FF

D19 is a step... .came as a package, and I mean that in the nicest possible way.  :)

I have tried various approaches with SD19, but again, as with her M. (my W.) we are not very close. And my suggestions* generally do not conform with their family model, so are treated with suspicion (contempt even) rather than any kind of open idea that there is something in anyway useful.

* ideas on boundaries/control etc etc

Actually I am not too interested in fixing their (W + SD) worlds... .I just want to steer myself through occasional chaos as best i can and deal with incidents in what is deemed a healthy way.

On that front 'Let them be', and avoid triangles will do it for me.

Just had a weekend away(W + D7, real D).

Was able to observe the family dynamic. Before I would have got in and challenged and complained, so i like to think of that as progress.

I'm just working on me.

I've got a date, not that kind of date, a real calendar one... .

For action!

Can you lay out the family tree real quick.  I think I'm seeing a mom, dad, step D (19) and a real D (7).

Anyone else in there?  Any chance of SD19 leaving for college?. 

Basically... .trying to figure out who you "really" are responsible for.  Right now I"m seeing 1 child.

Think about the way you approach this.  "direct" seems to be rebuffed.  Perhaps it is best to pick a different time to be direct (and short) with a message.  When they are "in it" is not the time.

"It would mean a lot to me, if you and SD19 would pause your conflict to give me a chance to leave, (perhaps say something about your feelings).

See how that is pointed at you, vice them.  Don't debate it.  Perhaps it opens up a time of listening about their conflict.  Validate.  Perhaps she starts blaming you... .(exit)

FF

Dad + bio S18 away at college (university)
Mum + bio D 19 home at college mum against D leaving home.
D7 bio D + M... .5 total.

I take care of S18, all good, and D7, all good too. D19 not so good (not so close).


I like that. Often I have done the opposite and tried to help reslove. (FYI FWIW it didn't really work very well  :))

Got it.

What is it about the r/s with two kids, that is missing with the step daughter?

If I was perched on your shoulder, listening and watching a 1 on 1 conversation, what would be different?

Stay away from "why" it would be different.  Write about the "what". 

We'll get to why... .later.


FF

Thanks FF... .here are a couple of things.

Language, bio kids speak english with me. SD after 10 yrs won't/can't, nor can W. (W. is french). I speak Fr. so do bio kids.

Once we are talking (not chit chat but substance) what is different... .issues of trust, openness, a desire to listen. With bio bunch these things are present.

With SD you will notice the desire to terminate asap, and ownership of nothing.

In my efforts to break away from my toxic marriage, I am slowly beginning to find my way.

For a long time I have just been keeping score. Today she did these bad things; score -4. Then she did a good thing and we are back to zero. On a daily basis my take on our situation oscillated according to her (and mine possibly) behavior. So depending on the score I would be staying one minute and wanting to leave the next.

This is great for making you crazy, and sending you round in circles.

But slowly I have been adding other parameters to the score line….for example new measures like
   How do I feel?
   What do I think?
   What am I going to do?

These questions have taken me a very long time to even ask, and an even longer time to understand how to answer.

But I do think I am getting there, and a real sense of my own requirements is beginning to take shape. The new parameters allow me to make decisions and not just react (badly) to poor behavior.

On a recent therapy session where I was in a state of great relaxation, I was asked to look in a (imaginary) mirror. It struck me as strange that I saw no reflection, no image at all. Perhaps this is the consequence of a life subordinated to others. History I now like to think.

Just this morning I made a big breakfast, W. was on the phone. We all ate together, then the phone went again, W chatted and I cleared the whole lot up. Cool. That’s the way she is. Before I would have been mad and told her how and when to have conversations. Now I just adjust the score according to how I feel. Good breakfast, poor company. MINUS TEN!

I like to think I’m on the right track……

That is an interesting and fruitful exercise; it lends a visual to self-abandonment.  If we're predisposed to put other's needs ahead of our own, and that gets amped to the extreme by being in a relationship with a borderline, we can abandon ourselves all together, as shown in the mirror.  And chances are we do that with a lot of people, not just our partner, and one gift of a borderline is they shine a light on something we may not have been aware of and/or were effectively denying.  So now that the light's on, we can put anything we want in that mirror, and make it big and bright; see that spark in our eye?  See that smile?  See that amazing background that has become our life?  Upon reflection, we've created an amazing reflection, if we say so.

something triggered my W. today and she says where are you with your ideas of divorce?

This hasn't been mentioned for several months. (I said I wanted to divorce several months ago, and she said we could work things out... .)

During these last months I have been working on me to face this issue.

She has kind of beaten me to it, and now I'm on the back foot... .but still want divorce.

Suggestions pls.

Thanks

I think it's better to rip the Band-Aid off instead of pick at it EG, hurts less and things heal more quickly that way.  One thing that helps to meet a goal that is challenging is to set a date: what date will you tell your wife you want a divorce, stick to it regardless of what she says, and move forward with divorce proceedings?

Hi H2H, the band aid came off!

well I thought about it for 10 mins and said, this is show time.

I'm back in my den now, but I layed my cards on the table.

I said it wasnt' working and I wanted a divorce.

It was a very quiet exchange... .but its happened, and I kept my focus, which last time didn't happen.

Glad you are there.

also we talked about shared parenting D7.

WE didn't agree but I didn't get triggered like last time into backing down.

Good for you EG!  Now what do you need to do to make sure you follow through?  :)ivorce is more than one conversation yes?

I'd already seen a lawyer some time ago.

This info was also declared which put some weight into the whole discussion.

I have a draft settlement... .guess that will come out soon and see how it is received!

 
Has your lawyer blessed the draft settlement?  Make sure BEFORE you show her the settlement that you are 100% ok with her saying "where do I sign" with no further alterations.

Have you retained the attorney?

FF

So by when EG, what date?  I'm encouraging you to take what you say you want.  :)ate?

Tomorrow (like 24 hrs).

I want some anger to come out before the contract is seen.

For now there has been none!

Make sense?

Yes.  I'd rather spring it on her before the anger, since that may change things for you, but you're in the middle of it, so whatever's best for YOU.  24 hours, we'll hold you to it, and good for you!

EG,

Well done for getting to this point. Lots of courage |iiii .

I'm assuming you are British, married to a French woman and living in France, from the previous posts. If this is the case, my suggestion is to get that settlement signed ASAP, rather than waiting for the anger.

Again. Respect for acting on your commitments to yourself.

No... .doesn't make sense.  Why do you care about seeing her emotions?  That would seem to indicate (to me) that you are interested in a fight or "punishment" vice a divorce action.

If the purpose of the divorce is to "fight"... .please check motives.

If the purpose of the divorce is to legally sever the relationship, the focus on that.  Put blinders on and get it done.

I may be off base on some assumptions... please clarify.

FF

thanks everyone really great to have you there.

(yep I'm a brit in france divorcing a local)

Settlement being discussed, but she says you want div. I'll go along but I want custody.

I have said no I want 50/50. I'm guessing pretty standard discussion.

She asks WHY (divorce)

I don't want to get into you are B/NPD heavy, so I just say its not working for me, and want out.

She says... .but I'm always here for you I do not understend!

blinders on (we like to call 'em blinkers   :) )

what a difference 6 months has made.

Ok I'm not there yet... .but my focus is!

I'm a "stayer" at heart, so factor that into your interpretation of my advice.

I think you need to put an agreement in front of her, see what she says.

I also think you need to clearly, in a healthy way tell her what kind of a r/s that you want...   Not in a blaming way.  I would only do this if you are open to working on things or allowing her time to work on things.

If you just want to go, then "less is more".  Blinkers on, charge for the finish line.


Reasoning for my advice:  You never know what they will do.  Each partner in a r/s has a responsibility to communicate clearly about their "stuff" (not the other persons stuff)

So, tell her what you need and expect her to respect your needs.  You need to be ready to respect her choices as well.

Now, if she says that she will do something and then she doesn't.  You need to allow time to pass to clearly get her answer... .but you have it.  She isn't going to do it.

Hope this helps.

FF

missed this one... .draft was composed by my retained lawyer/attorney.

Draft settlement deliverd by hand today!

This is tough. I know I am doing the right thing, but I am having to deal with anger, blame, contempt, "destroying the family", and this is not my ideal terrain.

It all makes me feel very insecure. My stomach is in knots.

I try not to absorb, just observe. I'm holding my line.

No discussions yet... .

Saw S19 today - ":)ad you are doing the right thing". Cool.

Bumpy ride but I'm hanging on.  :)

EG.

Well done. Keep it up. Courage to you |iiii

Thanks Moselle - just a name or you in France too?

Should I post here or start a new topic (arrangements)... .?

We are all under one roof... .W (STBex) StepD19 and D7.

Just had dinner with W. and SD 19... .mid summer but the chill in the air was arctic.

I said this is tricky, any one have any ideas how to make things easier.

W replies if I could we'd be out of here today.

Now short of me paying rent somewhere that is not going to happen.

W has a place that is rented and will not be available until April 2017, earlier if we can make a deal with tenants.

So we are likely to be sharing space for a while.

Anyone have experience with this kind of scenario and any tips?

It's just a name  :)

In lived in Holland for 10 years and spent a lot of time in France.

Look you need to get that settlement signed. And you have to drive it hard. I'm 2.5 years later still not settled because I wasn't decisive enough and was still trying to save the thing.

My guess is she will start to do some unpredictable and hurtful stuff once she sees you are 100% decided. You are likely to be painted black and that could mean some difficulty. BPD has different levels on a continuum. How is she cooperative vs uncooperative. Safe vs dangerous?

Living with her is unlikely to work. She will feel abandoned. I tried this and it was explosive.

Do this quick. Even if you concede on some stuff. Believe me you will be grateful for a quick exit. It will save you heartache.

Discussion now (and since forever) is non existant.

I am already pretty black... .I am to blame for everything, back stabbing, hypocritical etc etc etc.

Then there is occasional attempt at reconciliation... we are good together etc.

My mind is clear it is finished.

According to local law there is a rule to calculate alimony... .she thinks the amount is unacceptable... .and for custody I have every chance of getting 50/50 if we go before a judge. However today she says she will not go with 50/50, so amicable seems out of the question.

Again any pointers welcome.

I am not a tough negotiator type (who'da guessed  :) - my lawyer seems good to me, but we haven't yet seen any action) but chances are the law would back my alimony and 50/50 claim if I fight it.

Best to fight or try to find amicable?

EG.

 Amicable hand's down. Please take that from someone who has fought for 2.5 years. Courts, lawyers, judges. You don't want to know what this costs and the BPD  is very good at this type of fight.

You can always fight later after the divorce if you need to.

The damage to the children in a court fight is unimaginable, mostly because the borderline will use them as pawns and currency in the fight.

If you are decisive and push for it quickly you can get it through. Be kind to her. Do what ever it takes. Do it before she gets her lawyers,  family and friends involved.

Try not to discuss open ended options with her narrow them down. Set a deadline for it with her. Her mind will be all over place and disregulated. That is why she cannot accept the alimony and 50/50.  Remeber she is more like a  3 year old emotionally. How would you get a 3 year old to sign a settlement agreement? You will have to lead her through it. Reassure her that it will be okay. Keep telling her that it's best to settle and that you know you can do it. It'll be okay. Don't threaten a fight. If you do it will become her default. Stay consistent. She will eventually follow.

If I could do it again EG, I would do it this way.

thanks again Moselle - very helpful insight.  |iiii

Things have moved quickly this evening.

She didn't like the alimony... .we talked about new figures... .we are not far off.  :)

50/50 didn't work but we've got something similar with wednesdays and what have you... .again not far off.  :)

Getting this done COULD eliminate all fights!

Then she said why don't we just separate... .no need to divorce? Not sure I understand significance... .reduces level of abandonment?

If we go that route divorce is automatic after 2 yrs.

She is thinking back to our early days we lived like this when things worked.

With knotted stomach and angry W. it was clear I needed to push in the direction I wanted, and be firm.

Then of a sudden she becomes co-operative and concillatory 'why don't we just separate and stay married, try to rekindle'.

This threw me. Anger became a smile, and I was on territory that i like... .this appeared non hostile.

Some kind of ploy, brilliant manipulation, because from feeling well outside my comfort zone, I was on familiar ground again.

But it is an illusion, because while the solution seems amicable, it does not get the the heart of the matter - our incompatibility.

Maybe it is a gentle way to proceed... .any pointers please.

(FWIW I'm 58 going on 59, D7 that makes me leap out of bed in the morning (literally and figuratively) and a uB/NPDW that fills my brain with addled thoughts 24/7.)

Think she has just tripped my co-d switch and my thinking's gone fuzzy.

Perhaps I've answered my own question... .

it is just like a drug (I imagine) and dropping the habit.

But the idea of feeling good (read avoiding conflict) makes all other condiderations secondary... .IN A MOMENT OF LAPSED CONCENTRATION.

Must keep focussed.

Well done you've answered your own question. The FOG of BPD clears when they are kind and cooperative. It is only half of the BPD equation.

In my view, separation can never heal a BPD relationship. It ignites the fear of abandonment in them. If there is something to salvage, it's done together.

Sometimes however a real threat of divorce can be a catalyst of change for them. Mostly they just say they will change. An honest effort and independent arrangements for therapy by them shows sincerity. Hard work over time is the only evidence of a genuine desire to heal and overcome the disease.

morning Moselle, we must be on similar time zones... .our pals across the pond are probably still snoozing.

Thanks again for your insight. It is extrememly valuable, and reassuring (that my thinking is not too awry)

I have started a new thread 'what are the chances ?' and I think you have more or less answered that one too.

Yes. I'm in South Africa,  so similar time zones.

My heart goes out to you. This is so difficult. I was there. I wanted to save mine and i hoped she would opt for recovery,  but her aggression and violence made it impossible. She opted out after 3 years of therapy.

Whatever your decision. I wish you all the best

3 years yikes!

yeah! I do not want to launch myself up blind alleys at my grand old age  :)

Say Hi to SA... .used to spend time in Rustenberg  :)

earlgrey,

I am curious how your r/s is turning out. This sounds exactly where my r/s stands as of right now.

Thanks.

Hi Method... .it is all very disturbing.

My story (now) goes like this. If I put no pressure on r/s, make no comments, I live with a pwB/NPD traits 24/7, and i cannot stand it any more. Boundaries make it easier.

I make a comments about behaviour (in a nice way) I get denial and blame.

BTW I have been working at improving our dynamic for 5 yrs.

So I have ended up heading towards divorce.

Mention of divorce... .'oh we can make this work'  very superficial adjustments. Nothing major.

But the 'positive' we can make this work fools me - or used to. I am pushing through for divorce despite the 'we can make this work' song.

Been around this loop too long, need to get out.

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