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So, I'm trying to have a clear, productive message to take to biblical counseling on Monday.

I have no interest in "blowing it up", but I do have an interest is focusing this counselor on his area of "professional expertise".

Such as:  We've spent a lot of time discussing my disabilities.  My wife is open about saying I'm a faker and at last session, the counselor said "FF, there is no mental or physical reason that you can not hold a job"

This is on the same day that I had a long meeting with vocational rehab and it was only at my insistence that they are trying to find a good fit for me.  They are professionals in putting disabled vets in good situations, they have access to ALL of my actual medical data.

I have no interest in further discussing my disabilities in marriage counseling.  It's not his area of expertise.

He is a pastor.  Perhaps he can help us focus on respecting our differences on the Bible and religious matters.  Honestly, I consider them to be a matter of nuance.  My wife thinks I am threatening our children's salvation.

You would think, leading discussions in this area would be a "walk in the park" for a pastor with a PhD.  I would think this is well within his area of "professional expertise"

I've also been doing a lot of praying and trying to blend a Biblical approach with "rules" on this board and other professional advice.

So, on an issue where my wife thinks I am a liar ... .or really that she "thinks I am a liar".  I need to stop functioning as the Holy Spirit and try to convince her otherwise.

That is the Holy Spirits job... not a husbands job.  If she believes I don't tell the truth, she should be honest about that.  I'll respect her position and she can respect mine.  

This goes both ways... .she has made it clear to me she believes I have sinned.  I have heard.  She is not the Holy Spirit and should quit trying to convince me.  Let the Holy Spirit do its job.

Thoughts?

I have a kind of "devil's advocacy" question: If you were to have the courage and the radical acceptance to continue with the biblical counseling just as it is and continue to allow your wife this particular forum in which to berate you . . . could that provide a safe, continuing outlet for her to vent her frustrations, rather than, for instance, saying the same things publicly and in front of your children? Could it help to channel the energies of her illness in some way?

Generally, though, I think you are best guided by what your own psychologist comes to think about the biblical counseling.

Will your psychologist believe that it is too damaging for you and your family to continue with the biblical counseling?

I don't know what your biblical counselor has a doctorate in, but I find it shocking that he sent you that article that suggested you should regard yourself as "already crucified" or something. No counselor with a psych-related degree has every told me anything of the like.

I'm really sorry for what your wife did with respect to your ongoing legal case. I advocate for self-protection on your part now above all else.

 

Good question:  I will ask it.

KateCat,

Thank you so much for the guidance, insight... .virtual slaps upside the head... .:)  etc etc

Today I feel much less in distress... .and more about "being constructive".  Hard to explain other than that... .but excited about figuring out a plan and understanding why that plan is a good idea.


1.  Ask the devils advocate question.

2.  Ask P if I am strong enough to continue current course?  What does self care look like to continue?

3.  What if I keep refocusing my efforts on self care and emotional support/guidance of my kids... .is that a good focus.  The progress D5 is making is really heartwarming.  The other day as she was wailing... .":)addy... .I'm so mad at D3 because she took something from me"  I said something along the lines of "I see you are mad.  I get mad when people take things from me.  Would you like me to stay with you, maybe give you a hug while you are mad?"  I hung out with her and hugged a bit.  Wailing was over in a minute or two (used to go on ... .a long time... .).  We talked about some other stuff, I told her I liked spending time with her... .and off she went.  That may have been the first time she identified and owned her emotion.  ":)addy... I'm so mad... ."


The crux of "my problem" that I am trying to be wise about is that there are lots of relationships to consider wisely, not just me and a disordered person.

FF

I think you are beginning to follow the path that moderator livednlearned describes in her journey.  |iiii

I would like to attempt to defend the biblical counselor with his suggestion to think about being crucified with Christ.  I see it as an advanced Biblical concept that wouldn't make much sense to those outside the church.  In short, I think he was trying to get FF to not think selfishly.  The selfish mindset is like the following:

• This is unfair



• I deserve better



• So and so is bad because they aren't giving me what I deserve

But from a Biblical perspective, what we deserve is the fire of hell, and it is only by the grace of God that we aren't there.  Jesus died on the cross in our place - which means that we are the ones that really belong on the cross.  So from that perspective, living with a troublesome wife is much easier than being on the cross.

If FF can adopt the above mindset (which is really hard, and I don't do a good job of it either), then it takes away the anger in the situation.  It still sucks though.  But it is still better than where you should be (the cross).

I also wonder if there was something else in play.  What is expected of a counselor in a midweek crisis?  Are they expected to make a ruling and say "what you are doing is wrong - stop it"?  It sounds like the situation is becoming one where both sides are trying to play the counselor in to endorsing their position, and my guess is if the counselor starts to play that role, the counseling will fail.  He knows that, so he is trying to avoid it by giving the above advice.

My concern would be that it would validate her for having those paranoid thoughts and encourage her to continue to think that way.

I think there is a possibility that the biblical counselor sees FF as the strong party in this situation and therefore he's focusing more of his "corrections" upon FF in order to gain the trust of Mrs. FF.

Whatever is going on, in my opinion, is a rather primitive approach to a situation where serious mental illness exists. Yes, she might toe the line about certain issues, but overall she's not understanding the wife's role in this biblical approach and seems unlikely to adopt the behavior and attitude that this counseling approach recommends.

In the meantime, I see FF getting beat up in this counseling approach which seems counterproductive to me because he needs all his strength and resolve to deal with his children's issues, his wife's instability, his vocational rehab, his work and being a SAHD. The B counselor seems to be triangulating with his wife in a clumsy attempt to gain rapport and thereby undermining his rapport with FF.

You could be right Cat.  The therapist is requiring Master's level work from FF, and baby work from FF's wife.  On the other hand, when one person in a marriage has a mental disorder, what else can you do?  The only way this works is if FF does more.

Maybe the biblical counselor can treat Formflier as something more like a Moses figure. (Wasn't he a father? Didn't he lead his numerous people away from captivity? Wasn't he an action figure?)

I'm not understanding why Formflier should consider himself as "already crucified." That would leave him with little capacity for productive action, wouldn't it? He has important human work to do, as far as I can tell.

I also want to add, that what the Counselor is asking FF's wife to do is not easy either.  He is asking her to submit to him, when her nature, and that of society, is to act as a co-equal.

The old self that is looking out for #1 has been killed.  The new self focused in pleasing Christ Jesus is alive, and capable of much productive action.

Yes, I can't understand why she wants this type of counseling. She wants FF to order her to quit working yet FF knows that would be counterproductive and she would likely rebel or give him grief for doing so.

It's like she wants to be controlled but rebels against any limits that are set.

Thank you for the explanation, Fian.

I wonder if you think or if anyone thinks that it would be possible for the professional psychologist to have a word in private with the biblical counselor, so that there can be some common understanding of goals and methods.

I share all of Cat Familiar's concerns regarding this theological counseling, unless it is better informed by an understanding of one party's mental illness.

I don't know about that.  There are several issues with it.  One, the Biblical counselor has understandably been reluctant to have side conversations.  It doesn't foster trust in FF's wife.  Also, what could FF's counselor tell the Biblical counselor about FF's wife - it is all heresay.  FF's counselor could talk to the Biblical counselor about FF, but I am not sure how much that would help.  And even if that was all they talked about, FF's wife would be understandably suspicious that they talked about her too.

 

Great thread... .thanks for all the input.

My P has seen my wife in action 1 time.  Wife "acted out" the murder by sex toy episode where my wife stopped me from killing her.

A few sessions ago, as the P was trying to get my attention to how serious this is, she said that it was in the top 5% or top 5... .not sure which... .of paranoid stories that she has ever witnessed.

We had a great session today. 

The strategic plan is to attempt to "nudge" BC in a better direction.  And a lot of coaching to me to talk less and think more.  I've always had a thing about thinking out-loud. 

More later... .again... thanks for input.

FF

KateCat, I doubt that having the psychologist talk with the biblical counselor would do much good. BC has already discounted FF's disability status and said that there is no reason he can't hold a job. BCs in general tend to not put much stock in mental health professionals and society at large; bc's aren't trained in psychology, the focus is more on bible and obedience to it's instruction. Unfortunately, there tends to be an emphasis on self-sacrifice, meaning what I need doesn't matter, and more love. One of the books I read recently stated that more love/empathy doesn't work for pwBPD.

FF, some pastors are not able to engage much in comparative theology between various Christian groups. In my experience, there are groups are very much into 'my way is right' and cannot articulate the differing viewpoints because those are 'wrong'.

I think your focus should be on how to articulate your concerns about biblical counseling and to stand your ground in that. Would you be okay with discontinuing biblical counseling? My thoughts are that it sounds like what happens when marriage counseling is done for abusive marriages; the counseling becomes evidence of how bad the abused person is and makes things worse. That's why it is not recommended when abuse is part of the relationship.

You seem to have a good team of people helping with different aspects of your life.

empath, thank you for a comprehensive explanation that pretty much answers all the questions that I had.

It does seem that the BC has already had his own earful of examples of Formflier's wife's perceptions. (He too heard from her directly of her belief that her husband recently tried to kill her, if I'm not mistaken.) He has also heard of her actions in the court case. And he continues with his own variety of counseling, which is his appropriate charter, it seems.

Formflier, I hope you can take extra, extra good care of your own well-being. Your kids really need you, for decades to come. And your recent bouts of high blood pressure are important directional signs along this long road, I think.

Finally, I'm continuing to love your psychologist. She's saying all the things I have heard over the years from trusted advisors.  |iiii

 

Yes... .I felt very confident today leaving P. 

General plan is to stick with it, work my tools (which we practiced a bunch) to keep temp down or "bring her down" when she gets worked up.

For instance  "I would appreciate it, if you would trust that the vocational rehab professionals are doing all they can for me.  It's really the governments decision now."  Said, while facing her with a relaxed posture... .maybe with a light touch.

I haven't said that yet... .but it's a nice way to reinforce our relationship (I appreciate and trust), very important I touch (showing I want to be close to her), and then set a boundary by saying it's out of my hands (I've done all I can do)

OK:  Here is best guess now from P.  That my wife has a "flavor" of abandonment fear, it's based on me "not wanting her around",  and probably linked to some sort of sexual desirability thing.  So, her fear is that I don't want to be close and sexual to her and that I will go elsewhere.

On the good phases, my wife turns hypersexual (   )  and when I get worn out and start hiding from her... .I need to be careful to let her know that I want to be close to her... .she's just too much for me... . 

Sigh... .you can't make this stuff up... .

Anyway.  The strategic view is a continuation of focus on kids.  P has coached me how to separate them from FF wife.

"Honey, you've been working so hard, let me handle this for you... .etc etc"  Then I work with kids, focus on emotions.

Big validation today.  Going to Bible school D3 was demanding that Daddy was the only one qualified to carry her in... .|iiii

We'll just have to keep working with BC, and for now no effort for P to reach out.  BC likely doesn't know about my continued individual P stuff. 

She helped me practice some nice ways to set boundaries and focus BC on spiritual stuff.  We'll see how that goes.

The good news is, whoever my wife considers an authority figure, she will listen to.  Right now that is BC.  I don't want to give that up, so I'll put up with... .whatever.

Some coaching on self care, say less in session, think things through several times before speaking, etc etc.

Oh yeah, it's not about me being right.  It's about me being effective in the big picture. 

So, wife called opposing counsel and spilled beans... ."Meh... .we all do things we wished we hadn't... "  move along.

Certainly I need to realize whatever info I give her... .will go who knows where.  More practice with P on horizon to answer questions but really give no info... .

P also worked me over to have empathy for my wife.  Said she is probably very aware that she is out of control, which causes more fear, which causes greater acting out, which she is aware of and causes more fear... .(you get picture)

It's not about being right, it's about being effective and turning down the temp... .or avoiding a direct hit if I'm getting aimed at.

FF

Wonderful advice. Every bit of it.  |iiii

Yeah... .the me being right part stinks.  I'm usually right.  You guys have probably never picked up on that... I'm sure.   

Hi FF, it sounds like you have a good plan.  I am glad to hear that you aren't giving up on the BC, as he seems to be the only one that is having a positive impact on your wife right now.

A few thoughts... .

1. Wow this is complicated stuff.

2. You trust your P pretty much 100%, and everything I hear seems to justify that. She seems very skilled, and seems to understand the situation well.

3. You trust your wife very little in many ways, and her described behavior seems to justify that.

4. The BC is somewhere inbetween. Often providing good direction, but occasionally going off in poor directions (which trigger your wife) or losing his way/getting snowed by your wife.

5. You state that your wife respects BC as an authority, and that is useful. I concur.


I think this kind of thing is the key for you. It is certainly a more subtle way of doing things than you find natural, and it is on the border of being manipulative, but there is a fundamental truth here:

If you are completely 100% forthright and honest about your feelings and how you understand the situation either your wife or the BC, either of them can make some really big messes in your life.

You would do well to "manage" how you relate to both them to some degree or other.

Grey,

Spot on.  My wife will listen to BC.  I can also see BC is in process of scratching his head and still trying to sort us out.

We have session with him today.  He just emailed and asked us to bring a copy of our wedding vows.  Which... .I have no idea if we still have a copy.

Will be interesting to see where today goes.

Yes... .at the point, P has my best interests and I don't hold anything back.  She is quite open with me that she is also interested in a better emotional environment for the kids.  We spend about half our time on that.  Good results so far.

FF

Looking forward to P session tomorrow.  BC didn't go so well today. 

He wanted me to "repent" for not suffering well for my wife and I refused.  Said I didn't see it.

He is trying to get me to see that me using boundaries is pride and that until I get more interested in "suffering well like Jesus did" and less interested in boundaries that my marriage wouldn't be healed.

He was also clear that he didn't see "much" of a betrayal in my wife talking to the other side. 

I'm still sorting through the session.  Several times he tried to take my words and do the "what you are really saying is this"... .to which I was like... ."no... .I'm saying what I am saying, nothing more and nothing less"

He was trying to admonish me for not sending me some legal documents over email, after I had sent him a heads up before the session that I didn't feel comfortable sending it electronically.  He said I should fear God more that following legal procedure, privilege and all that.

I'm obviously frustrated... .it helps to get some of it down.  I had asked for time to figure out "where this is all going" and the answer was that until I was ready to suffer well... .it wouldn't go much of anywhere.

I'm going to try to make sure I have good notes ready and I'm looking forward to chatting with P tomorrow.

FF

This is concerning, as any man or woman involved in a court case should expect empathy, respect and a boundary with not talking to the other side. It is common sense and respect. Unless you did something terribly wrong and she felt the need. Which is not the case here. I have had to help my ex to be with a few of his issues and would never think that is OK, as a wife or Christian. What in the world.

She might have damaged your case, your future, that of your kids to play games.  Hang in there FF.

Hopefully a friend, family member, Church member, or  counselor can get her to see. Before she ruins a marriage, her kids and your future, as well as trust.

Like I said, I don't think your best choice is to trust him 100%.

This sounds like not a question of your legal concerns vs. God... .but your legal concerns vs. his authority (on matters of God).

If you don't seem to be respecting BC's authority, the "magic" that your wife does respect his authority may not work so good soon... .but I'm not going to suggest you give in for reasons like that.

I'm really glad that the P has both your number and your wife's number, at least! Helps manage the gaps where the BC doesn't seem to be getting it.

FF, the more I hear about your BC, the more I think he has his head up his a**. And he seems like someone who has book knowledge, but little life experience. Sorry. There I said it.

Nevertheless, I am reading your account of what went down in your therapy session, so I know I'm not getting a totally objective viewpoint. I do think you try to give that, but anyone's perspective is going to be biased, especially about hot button issues. (I'm imagining that you share my opinion of him, but in a more subdued way. That darn Meyers-Briggs J part. You seem more charitable with your judgment than I. However those of us who are Js certainly can have opinions!)

To elaborate further, he is straying from strictly Biblical counseling and issuing judgments about issues in which he really doesn't understand the ramifications upon your family (the legal issue). And for that, my opinion of his "counseling" has gone down tremendously. Also I don't think he really gets how paranoid your wife is. It's a term that's bandied about in casual discourse, but until you've actually lived with a diagnosable paranoid person, you really don't understand.

I just wish that your wife would be open to doing therapy with someone who could actually help her, but my sense is that she's only open to band-aid "treatments" that try to share the "blame" equally, which is what I think this "counselor" is doing.

How's that for a judgment?  *)

I agree this is based on your perception, but based on what you are saying, I do agree with you.  Boundaries are important and psychologist seems to treat legal matters with little respect.  You are right to stand your ground, and unfortunately your wife will probably conclude that if you don't have to listen to BC, neither does she.

Clarification

Psychologist respects lawyers... .BC does not.  Says following God is more important than following legal rules.

I should trust God for outcome... .out my faith in God... .vice lawyers.

I need to get him to clarify this in writing, because when I tried to pin him down on his exact application he complained about my spirit.


FF

With this thread and your other one about Bible verses, you are asking the wrong questions.

You've been very clear about what your goals are with the BC. Let's refresh those... .

1. Be in some form of mediated counseling with your wife that will hopefully improve the relationship.

2. Provide validation to your wife by participating in the only type of counseling she will presently accept.

3. Use what you can from BC but do not follow it blindly. Filter it through your sessions with your P and your own hard-won BPD knowledge.

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504. Win Scriptural arguments with the BC.

Focus on the top goals. #504 gets you nowhere useful at all.

Flourdust,

Wonderful point.  I totally get that.

Except I am getting called out as sinning and no repenting, when I am using what I think are healthy tools for a pwBPD AND following Biblical guidance. 

"Guarding your heart" is great advice, even for those that aren't Christian.  I'm being told to do something by BC... .and... .he's sorta saying stand and take abuse and suffer well... .and I'm saying no.

For instance, me retiring to the room while wife ranted and stomped around the house was me being selfish and thinking about myself... .apparently.

FF

Man, how old is this BC? 14? Clueless... .

 

Roughly my age... .mid 40s.

FF

This is where I suggested you "manage" the BC a bit.

He is focusing on stuff that you are doing, pushing you to act in directions against what we are saying here, what the P is saying, and what you believe.

Your goal: Stop the BC from directing you that direction.

Not your goal: Educate the BC on why this is a bad idea, or convince him it is a bad idea.

Ways to accomplish the important goal... .

1. Have a scriptural/theological debate with the BC over the topic.

Doing this will undermine either your authority with your wife (bad) or his authority with your wife (also bad, but not quite as bad). Avoid it if you can.

2. See if he forgets about it.

(Sounds ideal if it works, but may not work)

3. Try to re-direct him toward something more timely/relevant.

This will be a subtle one to do properly. Perhaps your P can advise you?

4. ?

Smile, nod, "you've given me something to think and pray about," move on to next topic.

Yep... definitely will talk to P about it today.  I struggle with subtle... .so yeah... .I could use some help there.

FF

FF, as I mentioned in the other thread, I have concerns about BC and how it seems to be used to focus on your 'issues' of 'not repenting' and now 'not suffering well'. It sounds a lot like abusive communication is happening from the BC to you, and possibly, your wife is 'on the BC side' (triangulation). These are things that sometimes happen in counseling when abuse is present in a relationship.

As with the social services counseling and involvement, I'm concerned that ffw is going to understand this as ff is bad and unrepentant, fueling her delusions (or cognitive distortions... .). She is complying because she needs to be seen as the one without problems and focus the attention on you and your problems.

I'm going to echo Cat Familiar's sentiments to some degree:  I think this BC is in over his head when it comes to dealing with couples in which one of them has a PD.  That's a bit softer than "head up his ###", but still the bottom line is the same: You're going to get well-intentioned advice, but not the best advice given the actual circumstances.

Good session yesterday... .she quickly got me through venting stage and then we focused on possibilities of how to go forward.

1.  I think it was flourdust that said winning a war about scripture was low on my list.  Same thought, but expressed my way after working with P.  "Going toe to toe with a BC about scripture and meaning of scripture is not going to end well for me"   Especially with my PD wife there watching me "fight" God's will. 

2.  Better for me to focus on scripture and prayer and clarifying what I believe.  Yes, I would like to clarify what they are asking me to consider believing, but if I'm only doing that so I can win an argument, go back to point 1.

3.  The P's comment was that the BC is staying very abstract in his descriptions of what I am supposed to do and believe.  We rehearsed some word tracks to gently ask for specifics.  I am one to like to "pin people down" on what they are saying.  I like to be pinned down.  I stand behind what I say.  I need to be much gentler.  "I hear what you are saying, how do I model that as a behavior in this situation... ?"

4.  The one thing she was strong on is to use the phrase "It sounds like a judgment is being made about... ."  and gently ask for clarification.


She shares same fears I do that the heavy focus on me will reinforce my wife's view that I am the problem... as in the only problem.  Doesn't see anyway around that, especially when BC won't explain his plan.  Still working on this aspect, but I should stay centered and gentle, vice challenge.

As a general thing.  I need to focus on thinking more and saying less.  I can tend to "think outloud" and give too much detail.  I like detail.  In my mind the more detail I give, it's more obvious I am telling the truth.  In reality I am confusing those that are trying to listen and understand.

FF