BPDFamily.com

Well, we have 2 more weeks until the hearing.  On Father's Day weekend, when DH sent a text to DSS15 saying he was looking forward to the weekend with DSS15, DSS15 sent an absolutely hateful text back.  Then we saw that DSS was way out of town (social media posts) so I am guessing they had no intention of following the court order for Father's Day.

But, of course, when BPD mom DID come to counseling (to sort of follow the order), she said that DH never even bothered to get DSS15 (um, he was not in town).  I told DH he needs to be more obvious for the July pick up.  :)SS15 refused to go in the counselor's office so the counselor met with BPD mom, DSS15 and DSD19.  BPD mom keeps talking about how she is not alienating DSS15 like the judge said; DSD19 says there is no such diagnosis; counselor says that when a child is refusing contact with a parent, there is generally alienation going on.  I have to wonder what the kids think when they are being told by all kinds of professionals (the judge and two counselors) that their mom is an alienator.  Of course, BPD mom says derogatory things about DH right there in front of the kids without even realizing it.  The counselor kept talking about how BPD mom and DH have "very different narratives" about what is going on.  :)SS15 got uncomfortable a little more than halfway into it and walked out of the office completely.  

But I think THAT is it... .that is the whole problem.  BPD mom has this pretty delusional story she is telling, and DSS15 (and DSD19) has a choice to believe the crazy story OR to lose his mom.  And the inner conflict is great.  The counselor told us that she thinks that mom believes her stories.

What irks me is the counselor asked us after the session why we had alcohol at my DD's graduation party since we knew that would be distorted; I told her we did not have ONE OUNCE of alcohol there.  BUT that is what BPD mom is claiming; in fact, she is claiming we were drinking during the whole party--we were drinking soda, not alcohol.  WOW... .this is beyond ridiculous.  Besides DH getting a alcohol test to PROVE he has not had a lick of alcohol in months, we are now going to have a friend from the party to testify that we had no alcohol there at all.  Was she going to have DSS18 lie and testify that we did have alcohol there?

Now to see what happens when DH goes to pick up DSS15 for July visitation.  I am guessing we will not get DSS15, and there will be drama.

DH better not go alone.  He can't do anything that might be misconstrued as abusive.  And he should be prepared to have the police come, perhaps having them on standby, either to 'encourage' compliance with the court order or to get a police report on the events.  Yes, it would create or ramp up the incident but documentation is necessary and maybe the police presence might deflate mother's influence.

It's a party, why couldn't you have alcohol there? As long as you were serving it to adults that were of age then there should be no issue. But yes yes I know, I know. We are dealing with a distorted person who twists having a beer with dinner into a raging alcohol problem. Better to be sober than sorry.

What bothers me is that the counselor knew that mom "distorts" things, but you still feel you have to go out of your way to prove what you said was true. That's garbage. The burden of proof should be on her!

I agree with ForeverDad, it might be a good idea to have an officer with DH for the exchange just to cover his rump. What are the exchange terms, is DH supposed to go over to BPDmom's house to get DSS? I think I said this about Father's Day (or maybe I just thought it) but I wouldn't expect July visitation. BPDmom has this alternate reality that she is living "It's all DSS, I try to get him to comply but he refuses to go". If July visitation happened then that would be against her reality and she just can't have that happen.

The kids probably think all the professionals are being manipulated by DH or on his side or paid to lie? Whatever story BPD mom gives them. So basically the counseling session was BPDmom badmouthing DH and her and DSD telling distorted truths? How is that supposed to help the alienation? DSS needs to be away from them so he can be deprogramed.

It'll be interesting to see what the judge does. She should be completely out of chances at this point. I'm sorry SS15 chose his mom over reality. I can't help but think something more should have been done on the front end with counseling to make the boys less susceptible to their mom's distortions. But that ship has sailed. Getting the kid back and getting him back in touch with reality is critical, if at all possible.

Thanks for the suggestion about the police--I don't think we would have thought of that; I am sure at this point the story would be he showed up drunk to pick him up or something;

I agree with you about the counseling--I don't think the counselor saw the manipulation at first at all--BPD mom is so subtle.  The boys' complaints about our house seemed realistic so she saw them as genuine.  But yes, that would have been good.  DSS18 just last week was trying to tell me that we didn't go to a national landmark that we DID go to just last year... .it is like his mom somehow started a conversation about what WE did on vacation and tried to convince him we didn't go.  I don't get how she manages to do that with an 18 year old, but today I reposted the picture of all of us in front of that landmark last year on facebook.

I don't know how you hold it together with all these lies. And I agree, why is counselor asking you why you had booze at the party. Shouldn't she be asking BPDm how she knew there was alcohol, was she questioning the kids?

I think I would have (wrongly) just replied that the only person who was drinking at your party was BPDm who brought her own. :)

And if you remember a couple of years ago BPDm was "claiming" my DH was drunk at every exchange.

We were also being put under the microscope with the counselor because of her lies. We just stated to the counselor that if BPDm truly felt DH was drinking when he picked up or dropped off SD, and she didn't call the police immediately then we worry about her ability to protect SD.

We also INSISTED that BPDm make her accusation right then and there so that DH could call the police and get a breath test to dispute her claims or she should cease and desist making them.

She never brought it up again  :)

As a pre-emptive strike, we sent DH’s recently taken 3-month hair alcohol test that shows him as being in the “teetotaler range” to the CPS investigator. 

I am sure I sound paranoid to most, but I could see both BM and her attorney telling the CPS investigator right before the hearing how we were all drinking at the graduation party causing her to doubt her testimony that BM is making stuff up.

Since we are petitioner this time (a first for us), our side goes first so I guess we are going to have to talk about the accusation  and defend it before she accuses us.

Honestly, I think that's better. If you can nip everything in the bud before she gets a chance to say it then she'll stand there and make her emotional claims with absolutely not a shred of evidence to back any of it up and then you have a better chance that it will be actively ignored as it's coming out of her mouth, rather than listened to and considered first and then you are on the defense against it. However, that being said, don't take up too much of the court's time defending yourself because that leaves you with less time to make your actual case, which is that kiddo needs moved. Now.

I don't know how you keep it together!

My SS16 (just turned) is just now coming into his own, after 2.5 years of living with us

and weekly, then biweekly, counseling.  Just last night, we were celebrating his

successful DMV driving test, and he really started opening up about just how much his

uBPDm had screwed up his young life, and that in all honesty, he never wants to see

her again.  That is a huge admission from a kid who "presented like an abused foster

child" per his counselor, and would never talk about his mom at all.

We are incredibly lucky that she lives two states away and has limited funds for flights

(we share the cost).  He just might squeak through summer without having to visit.

We also "gave him permission" to not answer his phone when his mom calls.  We've

found that she rarely texts, and we assume when she calls there is not-so-subtle

alienation and abuse still happening, but no one can prove anything.  His eyes opened

wide, he obviously had never thought of not answering. We want him to start setting

his own boundaries with her so that he can manage his relationship on his own as he

grows older, and also learn how to manage his younger half-sister, who is a chip off

the old BPD block.

I hope your stepkids are able to move on from this somehow.  It was 10+ years of

severe alienation for my DH.

BPD mom just responded to DH's email about his summer possession tomorrow, and she is sounding like she is going to be cooperative for once.

I hope the judge doesn't ignore all of her misbehavior just because she decides to behave 5 days prior to the hearing.

Any words of wisdom for having a 15 year old over whose last words to his dad were insanely hateful via text?  This will be interesting.

Even though our High Conflict days are, hopefully, in the past I recently bought myself a voice recorder that can record hundreds of hours.  My old recorders held only a few hours.  I really chose it because it can record FM broadcasts but I purchased it with both purposes in mind.

However, it's a touchy issue to record a minor.  Perhaps you could phrase it as David and others have written, "I record myself to prove I'm not misbehaving and if others are also on it and misbehaving, well... ."

DH is supposed to have him for how long, the whole month? BM is probably promising DSS15 that he'll only have to stay until the hearing.

With the crazy accusations lately, it might not be such a bad idea to record yourselves. Or make sure there are witnesses around.

Oh my... .BPD mom is asking for DH to pay athletic fees that are due today for DSS.  No wonder she is being nice.

^^maybe take a page out of her playbook, and don't respond. Maybe you didn't read you email yet.

Our BPDm fires her therapist then hires her back( promising to try to work the program set out for her) the days before any court action and then fires her the day after. She's done it so many times the therapist just takes her money and tells the truth. :)

When is the exchange? How is it looking?

Looks like he is coming... .don't know much yet, just that he got in the car.  We are planning to go out to eat tonight.

Just kidding---DSS15 just came to the car and said he was not going.  My DD18 was so mad that she texted him (and told me later).  Part of her text was "as someone who has a father who has missed my graduation, missed my last dance recital, and a ton of other stuff this past 18 years, your actions are pissing me off. You have a dad who loves you and is trying to be a part of your life and all you can do is be angry and full of hate... ." and she ended with "Maybe if you actually showed up instead of creating a false reality in your head, you'd realize how utterly stupid you're acting."

Part of DSS15's response to her was "I am selfish and apathetic and couldn't be happier... .You're not worth my time."

My DD18 is so upset... .they used to be so close just a few months ago and now this.

To me, all it does is prove our point.  To be honest, I was a little worried about him coming to our house before the judge instituted some kind of court protection.  I didn't want him to make up any more crazy stories for CPS.

Figures. 

The same thing happened to us tonight. Not very happy times in the Thunderstruck household. Ugh.  :'(

What happened?  You can't leave it at that, Thunderstruck, after I spill my guts out.  LOL!

The only good thing about it is it further proves our point that he is being alienated AND we don't have to worry about any crazy stories he may create.

DSS18 came out and talked with DH.  He said he would get off work for our family trip, and he asked if grandpa was mad about "all of this."  Clearly he knows this is messed up.

Selfish and apathetic and couldn't be happier? Poor kid is completely emotionally shut down. He doesn't want to deal with what is real so he just simply won't.  :'(

Oh, lol, I didn't want to hijack your thread with our drama. Here the whole story is: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=295884.0

Short term loss, long term gain for you guys. Lack of cooperation even with a hearing in a few days. This won't go well for BPDmom.

I hope you are right, and the judge does something, but what can he do when an almost 16 year old is this off the rails?

How is it going? Have you had the court date yet?

Maybe it's time for the judge to meet your son and lay the law down?  After all, family court is the Real Authority.  It's called an in camera interview, though typically it's to get a feel for the child, since judges seldom (need to) meet the children.

We got to present our side today... .BPD mom's side will be presented Friday.  DCFS testified that BPD mom keeps calling; counselor testified that alienation is way worse now, and that kids really work hard at protecting their mom.  DH got to testify and admitted he did fall apart and wasn't coping well after losing DSD but he has picked himself back up this year and is doing much better.  Judge was clearly not paying as much attention when opposing counsel was talking in general--I happen to be aware through other channels that the judge does not like her lawyer.  I don't think her lawyer prepped really--it was more like she wrote questions, he asked them, and he repeated himself over and over again.  The judge rolled his eyes many times when he was talking.

We got the court appointed counselor on the stand, and when she testified that BPD mom's lawyer threatened to sue her, I could almost see smoke coming out of the judge's ears.  That is when he decided to stop for lunch, and I think he had an ex parte chewing out of the lawyer, but I am not sure.  All I know is her lawyer was not pushing the counselor too much when he returned.

One weird thing the other lawyer did was go through DH's affidavit to point out that DH didn't know all of the information in there directly, but by going through it point by point, he was presenting our case.  For instance, in the affidavit DH talked about how BPD mom convinced the boys to go through our room, take pictures of our prescriptions, and text the pictures to her.  The lawyer read how all of that happened to make the point that DH did not know directly that BPD mom is the one who convinced the boys to do that.  Maybe I am missing something, but I thought that was a dumb move (especially since it is likely the judge didn't read it in the first place so now his attention is brought to her alienating tactics--and I am thinking that taking pictures of medications in our room and texting them to mom is a pretty huge red flag).

The other thing was that opposing counsel kept saying that this was all about money for us... .and I kept wondering if the judge could tell that really, with all of their talk about money, that it is all about money for her.

And you remember how they never signed it, but then they tried to get the case transferred to another county?  Well, apparently, there is a 6 month residency requirement to transfer it; judge had also given our side a 6 month requirement to modify if not going well.  So when our attorney pointed that out to the judge, and how we couldn't file anything until we reached the six month mark, the judge got this big smile/smirk of realization on his face.  Judge said, "So really, there is no order here." 
Her lawyer:"Your Honor, you rendered an order in November." 
Judge: "But did I sign it?" 
Her lawyer: "No, but you made a final order." 
Judge: Big smile--"But it's not signed, is it?  So there is no order."

I think he was catching on to their games.

Still have no clue what he will do, though.

There needs to be an eating popcorn emoji. You have to keep us up to date on how this plays out. My bet? She's gonna get her ass fried

Sounds good so far!  |iiii

I really don't know what BPDmom can say that will help her case at all. You have experts who already testified that her claims (drug, etc allegations against DH, DSS is the one who doesn't want to go, etc) are bogus.

I know!  And she brought all three kids to hang out in the hallway at court with her... .two are supposedly going to testify (DSS18 and DSD19), but I can't see anything they could help with either.  Her lawyer claimed that DSS18 was going to testify that he didn't like counseling and counseling was all about DH.  Ummm... .ok... cuz none of that makes you look like an alienator.

   
Sanemom, you deserve all the hugs and support out there.  No one should have to put up with what you and your husband have.  I truly hope the Judge sees the forest for the trees and really helps out your DSD.

We are up this afternoon.  Our attorney stated that we have definitely made our case.  It will really rest on if the judge has the wherewithal to tell an almost 16 year old where to live.  Let's hope he has enough ire at what the other side has done that he will move him.

I've been following along and just wanted to wish you and DH well today 

Panda39

I've been following also... .all positive energy being sent your way.

To the judge... .

History:  If anyone had asked him two years ago he would said we were wonderful parents.

What changed:  His older sister, previously alienated from dad, aged out of the family court system and his mother then focused her attention and tactics on the younger boys whom she hadn't previously paid much attention to.

She had two of his kids testify against him, and the judge was very unhappy about that.  And then the judge kept watching the window, and the kids were peering in--he was very unhappy about that.  BPD mom turned on the tears about money, etc, but the judge rolled his eyes.  

90 days no contact with mom; 60 days supervised visits; then review hearing.  If there is contact with mom, mom goes to jail.

I cried... .in shock.  

Oh my gosh!    |iiii    |iiii

That's perfect! I don't think enough exclamation points and emojis can do it justice!  :) :) :)

Thank goodness for that judge. I want to send him a fruit basket.

Wow!     Threatened with jail time that's big!  So sorry about the kids testifying against their dad that must have been hard on your DH that is painful even if you know who is pulling the strings.  But if nothing else that demonstrated the alienation and putting her needs before her children.  Putting those kids on the stand is awful in so many ways.  Those kids are going to have to live with that... .so sad.

I'm with Thunderstruck thank goodness you had a judge that saw it for what it is and acted. 

I hope you will share more of the story when you have time.  Moving forward you guys still have a lot of hard work, undoing the job your step-son's mom has done to him (and the other kids for that matter)... .time to work on deprogramming and rebuilding relationships not an easy task. 

Enjoy the moment and try to take a breath.

Panda39

Oh. My. God.

What are the exchange arrangements?

Do you think she can maintain No Contact? Will she pull DD into it as a go-between?

 |iiii Finally!

Beware that she may try to maintain contact through the two older children, either messages, gifts or whatever.  I'm guessing it was as expected, the adult children testified and not DSS15?

Does 'supervised' mean with a professional agency?  Maybe with the teen's therapist?  She will have to be closely monitored then because she's sure to guilt or project in subtle and not so subtle ways.

Money?  She owes DH more than he owes her.  If he is to pay any child support, does it stop during the next 5 months?

I'm so glad that the judge was brave enough to do the right thing!

The tides they are a changing! Let's rejoice in the courts finally getting it! Thank you Dr. Childress for writing a comprehensive model for the courts to follow to finally put and end to alienation. It's LONG overdue.

So very happy for you! Keep a chin up, I've been through this and there are some unexpected side effects to finally getting BPDm out of your life for a while. It's been six months for us and SD is just now finally turning into a real child.
Please message me if you want to talk. And DO NOT feel guilty, she would have done the same to you in court only more so. You did this to protect your DH from losing his child, those kids are brain washed and that's not easy.

Today's presentation:

BM had DSS18 and DSD19 testify... .judge glared at her almost the whole time that they testified.  She really has no clue how bad that looked.

First they called DH to the stand to basically ask him to read off how much he made on his W-2.  That was it.  Can they scream "this is all about money" any more?

BPDmom had DSS18 testify first.  He testified that he had a relationship with his dad, but he was closer to his mom.  He testified that he wanted to testify to stand up for his brother (which are EXACTLY the same words his sister said in November).  He talked about his frustration that the therapist was mainly working with him with his relationship with his dad (um... .that is what she was appointed for).  Her lawyer had him testify that mom never says anything bad about their dad, and she encourages a relationship with their dad.  He talked about the most recent DCFS call where DH had taken some medicine that made him tired at dinner and DH had him drive home (so BPD mom concluded that DH was drinking and driving on the way to the restaurant).  The lawyer asked him about going into our room and taking pictures of the prescriptions and texting them to mom--he said his brother did that. The lawyer asked him about what he thought about seeing the negative drug test in the counselor's office; he started talking about how it would not have caught the codeine he thinks his dad abused.  Judge perked up... .our attorney asked, "A 10 panel hair follicle test will not catch codeine?" Her attorney objected that this 18 year old is not a drug test expert; judge said, "Overruled, I am interested in his answer."  Kaboom... .clear manipulation by BPD mom teaching her son that our negative drug test didn't mean anything.  He also talked about when his parents have conflict, no one tells him about the conflict, but he disengages from both parents (yeah--that didn't make sense).  Then he admitted he basically cuts off dad when there is conflict between his parents.

Then DSD19 testified.  She testified that we had un-invited her on our family vacation--but then admitted she had no communication with her dad and had blocked him on her phone.  She said that her relationship problems with her dad had nothing to do with her mom.  She also testified that DH had been drinking at the graduation party last month (remember--we took a 3 month alcohol panel to prove he has had NOTHING to drink plus the witness who stated the same--so the judge knew that was false).

Then BPD mom testified.  She did a lot of crying, talking about how money is always an issue.  Apparently, she just lost her job again.  She cried when talking about the alienation finding the judge made last year; said she has read and tried to find out why, but she doesn't think she is alienating.  She stated that she even went to a counselor for a session, and the counselor told her she was not alienating.  She said she doesn't say bad things about DH and thinks that their kids need a relationship with him--she knows it is important because she doesn't have a relationship with her dad (another sign).  Our attorney then showed her the letter where she is supposedly supportive of DH when he went to the hospital, but where she was making false assumptions that he was an addict.  He pointed out that her stating these things as fact to her kids is part of what is alienating them.  She didn't get it... .then our attorney made the point that she called CPS because DH was "drowsy at dinner"--he restated that for emphasis.  He kept poking holes in some of the other things she said... .like DH wasn't helping pay for college... .has he seen the bill?  no; just stuff like that.  His main evidence was the email where DH sent BPD mom his times of possession for the summer as ordered in the rendering of the order she wouldn't sign, and she wrote back, "A draft order is not an agreement.  If you want an agreement, we'll need a final order."  He used that same email yesterday... .lol.  

Overall, when BPD mom testified, the judge got a good picture of how she plays pathetic to manipulate the kids.  I saw the judge roll his eyes a lot during her testimony.

The judge got irritated with BPD mom when he saw all three kids peering in the window while mom was testifying.  He said that they needed to go home--was there any reason they were still here.  Her attorney piped up that they've been here both days--judge got angrier that they had been here.  Then her attorney said that he wanted judge to talk with 15 year old.  Judge paused and thought for a minute; then said never mind.  Shortly thereafter, he waved my attorney off with a "you don't need to keep going" look.

He didn't even want closing arguments, and he didn't want to talk with the 15 year old.  He said that this rose "to the level of severe emotional abuse, and he is in danger."  He told my husband that he had two kids testify against him, and that must have been hard.  Then he ordered the 90 days no contact or mom goes to jail; followed by 60 days supervised visits with the boys' therapist; then a review hearing.  BPD mom sobbed in the courtroom and in the hallway when she said goodbye to DSS15.

Oh yeah... he vacated first order that they never signed.  I found out later that means it is as if it never happened, which means that BPD mom will not get credit for the child support that DH should have paid.  Judge also said no child support for mom now (which is totally fine... .he probably felt sorry for her lack of income).  They kept saying it was all about money for us; I think he could tell it wasn't.

I am sure there was more I will remember later... .sorry so long.  It was so intense--we are still in shock, and DSS15 is not coming out of his room.

One more thing---these are temporary orders that will be reviewed after 5 months, but right now DH has sole custody.

I kind of wonder, since she has no job now, if she is going to move several hours away to live with her mom.  Not sure how it works if she doesn't follow the orders and doesn't do her supervised visits.

All very good stuff! I'd try to give SS15 his space as much as possible. Just bring up his meals and let him relax and get used to being home again. Once the massive amount of immediate pressure starts to subside you can invite him down to watch TV. As long as she isn't blowing up his cell phone right now he should be starting to calm down.

I very somewhat doubt she'll be held to no contact. Proving that contact is still happening will be a bigger issue. Either that or her all or nothing thinking will kick in and she'll do as you said and just leave.

I feel bad for the kids. Eventually they will all be actual adults and not just legal adults and they are going to be so upset over all of this.