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I want to start off by saying I acted very wrong. I am actually scared of myself now. I let her get to my emotions and hurt me and I reacted horrible. I became a monster. I let myself down terribly and did something I never thought I would do. Im lost and scared of what will happen now.

It was a good day. My girlfriend was having a good day and we were loving and sweet to each other. Because she is very paranoid she wants me to tell her when anyone text me. Its kind of an absurd rule but its something that made her feel better and I agreed long before I knew what BPD was. My friend asked me to hang out that day but me and my GF had plans to cook. I just ignored the text. I told my GF about my friend texting me and she was ok. Later that night we were about to cook. She left the room to use the bathroom for a while and my friend said "What no answer?". I still didnt respond and went on with washing food and cutting for our dinner. Later she came out and we got into a conversation about something and my friends text was gone and out of mind. We had a good night. While we were in bed and about to sleep after a passionate crazy love making session she asked if my friend texted me. I said "Oh yeah he did but just to say no answer? and I didnt respond". No big deal. To her it was a big deal. She started asking why would I hide it. I knew it was about to start so I prepared.

She started probing and searching for inconcistincies. She asked why didn't I tell her. I said because you weren't around and it slipped my mind. I wasn't trying to hide anything but I got distracted with cooking. She started telling me she never left the room. I said yes you did. You were gone for about 15 minutes. She called me a liar and I was hiding something. At that point I said woah this is going too far. I dont think this conversation is going well and i feel like a fight is coming. Can we please slow down. I asked why is she worried and how can we get to the real issue. She said the real issue is that I am lying. She starts asking again and again. I tell her this is going bad and its not worth fighting and to please stop. She said I was avoiding the question because I was hiding something.

After that I got up and said I have to work in the morning and its already late. I cant fight tonight. Im so tired and Im sorry. This will only be a bad fight that isnt worth it. I said... .Is it really worth it for you? She said yes it worth it. I got up out of bed and went into the living room. She slammed the bedroom door so hard it took the hinges off the wall and got in bed. I tried hard to ignore but I couldnt. I stormed back in and yelled as loud as I could ":)ont ever damage my property or disrespect me like that again"! She got up in my face and said my mom wished I never existed because I was just like my dad. I dont know where this came from or why she said it. At that point I was angry and wanted to hurt her and knew children were very important so I said I will never have kids with you. She looked very hurt. I walked away but she got up and grabbed my arm just scratching and biting. Then she started punching the back of my head. I pushed her off of me. She grabbed a ceramic vase and hit me in the head with it. I lost it. I turned into a monster. I pushed her down. She spit on me. I spit on her. I held her down and slapped her in the face. Not just once but I kept doing it until she started crying. Then I realized what I had done and tried to walk away. I was shaking I had never done anything like that before even though she has physically attacked me about 6 times like this.

She was just fake crying. She got up and started kicking and screaming and punching me with so much rage. I actually picked her up and slammed her down and held her down until she calmed down this whole time screaming at her to never touch me again and never lay a hand on me again. She struggled for a few minutes calling me names and trying to hit me. She almost broke her hand trying to hit me so hard. I held her down until she stopped and was too exhausted to fight anymore.

Then suddenly a switch flipped. Her rage was gone. She was calm and appologized. She acted like nothing happened. She was trying to hug me and kiss me and trying to clean my wounds where she bit me on the arm and made me bleed. I was just in shock. I didnt know what to do. I was so confused I just went along with it. She said please dont hate me. I didnt mean to fight tonight. I asked why she acted so extreme. She said i wasnt making sense and it made her upset. All this time she was hugging and kissing my arm. WTH! In the past I would have been very angry but now that I know about BPD I just felt sad. I felt helpless and I ACTUALLY FELT BAD FOR HER! Why? Why do I feel bad for her? I just dont know.

Ive never let myself get violent before. And now when I think I am understanding BPD and I should be able to control myself better I lose control. How is this possible? How can I let myself lose control like this knowing that this is the BPD?

Im scared of myself now. Im not a safe person like I thought I was. Im not in as much control as I thought.

Now I am at work. She has been texting me all day apologizing and saying how much she loves me. I dont know what to do. I dont know where to go from here. I promised her I wouldn't abandon her a month ago. I promised Id never throw her out. I love her but Im clearly not myself with her. Im clearly not sane or in control. Im sorry.

You've been courageous posting this here. It's important to own our own contribution to these situations.

You say that you don't know what to do. What are you thinking the possibilities might be from this point and what does each have to recommend it?

LW

Hi jrharvey,


The episode you described above, I believe, is an example of her acting on her disordered fear of abandonment.  I've noticed that for people with BPD (pwBPD), their disordered fear that we will leave them can be triggered by feelings of familiarity (family) and intimacy.  So in my opinion, it is not a coincidence that this started up after what would otherwise have been a very nice night together.

You did not behave in any manner that should cause her to fear that you would leave her.  But this is the disordered fear that she is reacting to.  This is why she insists on knowing who texts you -- because she is afraid that there will always be someone who will cause you to abandon/leave her; and she is trying to avoid this *imagined* abandonment.

The problem is there is nothing you can do that would assuage these feelings.  Even worse, she is inclined to believe that her disordered feelings are there because of your behavior.  This is why she chooses to believe that the "real issue" is that you are "lying."

I would argue that the more effort you put into trying to quell her fear, the more you try to commit to her, or prove to her that you have no intention to abandon her, the more she will become triggered to experience this fear of abandonment.  This is part of the nature of this disorder.


This oblique comment might be an example of "severe dissociative behavior" which is one of the criteria for the diagnosis of this disorder.  Even though she's talking to you, she's probably projecting and really talking about herself.  She probably blurted this out because she is in the middle of having an overwhelming experience which really has nothing to do with you, but she is choosing to attribute to you because the truth behind why she feels this way is perhaps way more than she can emotionally handle.


I wonder if this episode of violence had the equivalent result of self-injury that some pwBPD use as a means of calming.  In any case, this "switch" is perhaps yet another example of "severe dissociative behavior."  Suddenly she was disconnected from what she was feeling.


And here's where you really really need to watch out.  This time she reconciled with you.  You don't know if she will reconcile with you next time, if you allow for a next time to happen.  There have been members of these forums who have been potentially set-up in a domestic violence situation where it looked really really bad to a police officer... to an attorney... to a social worker... to a judge.  The situation you were in would look really really bad if a police officer had been summoned for any reason.  You could have been locked up.  You could have lost your employment.  It can always get worse.  And even though you reacted in self-defense, she could just as easily "disconnect" that information from her memory and from her sincere (albeit distorted) perspective, you just attacked her and she's just a victim.

And the aftermath of that scenario will not end well for you.

Best wishes,

Schwing

Im thinking... .

Should I give in to her biggest fear and abandon her? Has this gone too far? Should I leave or end this torture before she gets me in trouble? One day will I lose control again and seriously hurt her by accident? Will it happen again? Will she have me arrested? Will she hurt me? Will she hurt my dog? When she destroy my career?

Should I stay? Should i try to learn more about the disorder and somehow make it work? Should I read more and more and more until I cant read anymore and learn ways to make this a success story? Is there really such thing as a success story?

Thats what I am thinking the possibilities are.

You don't "give in" to other people's fears.  If you choose to end the relationship, it will be for reasons associated with how the relationship is progressing and/or not working for you.  It is only abandonment if you just pick up and leave for no justifiable reason.  Unfortunately, no matter how much you try to explain if/why you would go, how much you try to soften the pain of separation for her, she will *still* react to it as if it was an abandonment.  Don't expect her to take it well.  Then again, don't underestimate her ability to take care of herself. 

If you start to contemplate that you want to leave her, she will know days or weeks before you even decide.


Hasn't it?  How much more do you need to see of yourself before you decide it's too much?


This is something you will need to decide for yourself.  But if I had your experience, I would consider it a very serious wake-up call.


I don't know if any of these things will happen.  But I know that many of these things have happened to others who are involved with people with BPD (pwBPD).


Whatever you decide.  Get help.  You should get a therapist for yourself.  It's up to you to decide if you have enough wherewithal to help her as well as yourself.  Then again, you cannot help someone who is unwilling to help themselves.

We did see a counselor before. We got 3 sessions in. I didnt know about BPD. During session 2 he started asking a lot of questions about her past and focused more on her. After session 3 she said he was not helping and wanted to leave.

There is not a lot I can add that doesn't echo the observations made by schwing. I would like to provide you with something to ponder.

I'm not sure where you live, but in the US especially, there is an unfortunate and misguided gender bias concerning DV, as you may well know, if that is where you live. It's quite scary. Even in a situation where you are protecting yourself, the law is not on your side.

Do not beat yourself up about this. Although I've never been in a physical altercation to the degree of yours, I've been in a few scraps with more than one female. You must also keep in mind that this was not an isolated assault on you nervous system. You are continuously stressed out in that relationship, guaranteed. I mean, she's monitoring your text messages? That's pretty stressful and controlling behavior, and you must know that, right? I don't know all the details of your relationship, but the fact she attacked you with that degree of ferocity she has says everything. And you cite 6 physical fights. Think this one was your last?

Disordered women are pushing your buttons all the time. If you stay in a relationship long enough, you become increasingly aclimated to the tension until it becomes background noise. There are those varieties of disordered women who are looking for a fight, intentionally taking emotional body shots and sucker punches until they get what they wish for. This is for real. And no matter how much self-control you may have in other areas of life, with other people, it is not uncommon for men to snap sooner or later if provoked enough. My ex attacked me once and I never tried to shame her for it. But after a crazy-making episode where I threw a couple wine glasses at the wall she was shaming me for having a violent temper. They do not fight fair, and most will blame you. That's why they call them disturbed, right?

You are naturally freaked out right now, and rightly so. I've been there, as well. My adrenaline pumping for hours afterwards and I couldn't believe the absurdity of what I had been through. Most men do not want to hit a woman, it's culturally engrained in us, making the experience that much more shaming. However, is this healthy for you? Do you see it ending? One reason I left my ex is the degree of her anger and insensitivity was escalatng over time. I began imagining what she might become capable of if I stayed too long. A few months back she threw me out during an argument in a dissociative state, saying she would call the police if I did not leave, screaming she hated me. Then she ran over to her neighbors behaving like she was out of her mind. That put real fear in me. What version of events had she explained to them after I left? If they were ever called to testify ... .?

  I feel for you; I've let myself get spooled up and out of control and regretted it myself too. Not quite that bad, but it is a pretty awful feeling.

If you want to stay in this relationship, you need to enforce better boundaries and prevent yourself from staying in a situation that escalates that far. I'm going to go back to the beginning, and highlight two early signs.


First, you *knew* she was spooling up and it was going to be bad, early on. One of my mantras at times like that was "nothing good can come of this." (your feeling that you knew it was going to start)

She's not going to resolve this gently or gracefully. She's going to keep pushing your buttons and attacking 'till you are ready to fight. You can't stop her from doing this.

At any time after that, and certainly before you say "please stop" it is time for you to leave the fight. Tell her clearly that you aren't discussing it anymore. Leave the room if you need to. If you are in bed, and she won't let you go to sleep, go to the couch. If she keeps following you around the house, leave the house. If you need to sleep elsewhere (a friend's couch, a hotel room, your car, whatever), do so.

Asking her NOT to do this doesn't work at times like that.

But if you had walked out at that time, you she wouldn't have busted a door in your presence, and this fight wouldn't have happened.

The key here is to know YOUR limits. Make sure you get out before you are that upset, and willing to fight back like you were.

If you aren't *sure* you can handle it, it is time to be already gone!

Yes I knew it was going bad. I did try to leave the room and sleep on the couch. I wanted to ignore and cool down. When I left and she slammed the door and broke my door thats when I lost it. She was destroying my personal property and I felt like I couldnt just lay down, sleep and ignore that she was destroying my house. I felt like I had to put my foot down and tell her its not acceptable. Of course she got what she wanted. She got me mad. She got me yelling and at that point she knew she could explode on me and blame me for yelling at her. She actually still says the whole fight is my fault because I yelled at her first.

What a cluster####.  Sorry this happened between you and your GF.

I've recommended this in other threads: Practice scenarios in your head... .awful scenarios like property damage, theft, pulling a knife on you... .whatever.  Things escalating beyond your "normal" conflict resolution attempts.  Practice in your head the response you want to give, not the response your fight-or-flight instinct provides you when unprepared.  Hopefully with a prepared response, you will not have a repeat of what happened that night with your GF... .or worse.  Don't beat yourself up over what happened.  It's done.  It cannot be changed.  Instead, learn from it.

All that being said, you can become the perfect responder to such situations and that doesn't change the fact that you have zero control over her behavior.  All you can do is set boundaries and enforce them.  And those boundaries will be tested with escalating behaviors each step of the way.  We hope that our pwBPD isn't so far gone that eventually they'll hit their limit on how far they are willing to test the boundaries and back off.  But if they continue to test them, eventually the enforced boundary becomes "You are no longer welcome in my life".  Are you willing to escalate your boundary enforcement to the point of ending the relationship?  Think about this.

:sign_attn: Be smart. Don't end up in jail.

All she has to do is call the police and describe what happened and you could end up looking through bars. Read around we have a lot of members that lived it.

In general, you probably need to lose this idea that you are going to scare her or frighten her into treating you better. If you truly kick her internal shame and fears into gear, you will destroy any hope of having a reasonable relationship.


This is the courts definition of male on female domestic violence. I highlighted a sentence that you should read and think about - I was angry and wanted to hurt her.  You are trying to manage the relationship with physical and emotional control - the screaming, the comment on no children, etc.

I'm not judging you. I'm trying to have your back.

It might be smart to book 2-3 therapist sessions right away and get in and talk this out.  One, you probably need some conflict management tools and two, if the DV get brought in the future to a third party, having the counseling will be helpful. These things tend to resurface. Three, you can start a boundaries / safety plan discussion and use the therapist as a third party reference - "The therapists says we should... ." ;

Establishing values and their accompanying boundaries is all altering the environment and reconditioning the response.


You losing it provided her some relief. She knows she was heard.  She emotionally took you apart.  

And then she felt better.  The universe was balanced.

Please know that this was a high level fight - a little more escalation and someone could have been hospital bound. Fights tend to escalate over time if you don't nip it in the bud. Its often best to get daylight on it.  

Others can help you with this.

Good ideas from everybody - very hard to take but I sure wish I had these inputs when I was where you are Jr!

Background:  I was married 12 years to a woman with BPD, and we have kids together.  She was abusive but not violent... .til she got violent a couple of times, and then accused me of violence... .and I went to jail.  16 hours of hard time.  I got a lawyer and he quickly figured it out, and told me never to be alone with her again without a "non-family adult third party" present - or get myself another lawyer.

I got the charges dropped - the police had caught her lying and put that in their report - but the marriage couldn't be saved.

A few observations - what you and I and a bunch of other guys here have in common:

* Not a violent guy... .but she's so good at pushing your buttons that she breaks you.

* We sure do want to figure out a way to fix this situation!

* Our main reaction when confronted with this behavior isn't anger... .or fear... .it's confusion.  We really can't get it through our heads that someone is actually acting like this... .it's just... .so... .crazy!

In 20 states (including mine) the federal Violence Against Women Act is interpreted to mean that any time a woman accuses a man of domestic violence - even if he has bruises and she doesn't - even if the police know for sure she's lying - they are obligated to arrest and charge him.

In the other 30 states, the legal situation isn't that bad... .but in practice it's probably about the same.

Yes, you can theoretically plead innocent... .but juries are often biased against the man, and prosecutors know that, so you'll be given a plea agreement that admits guilt... .and that will follow you forever.

And in many states - like mine - even if you're acquitted, or the charges are dropped, what the internet shows - like if a potential employer does a background check - is that you were charged with Domestic Violence - and that may be enough to keep you from getting a job.  (I haven't been able to work in my previous field since that happened, even though the charges were dropped - I wasn't convicted of anything and didn't take a plea.)

The only sure way to avoid all this is to never be around the person who might start a fight with you, or make a false accusation.  That might sound extreme... .but it started making a lot of sense to me when I was in jail.  I'm hoping you can see the sense in it now, before you go to jail... .because if you stay with this woman, I think it's very likely that's where you will end up, either because you lose your temper again, or because she accuses you of something whether you did it or not.

It's very hard to give up the idea that you can fix this situation, but you can't.  There is zero chance you can have a healthy relationship with someone so disordered... .and zero chance her behavior will improve without extensive therapy.

Always remember your boundaries and your actions to reinforce them early.

The problem is once we know a little about BPD we tend to have too much faith in our ability to manage our responses better, so we let things go further before we act on our boundaries, by then it is too late, we are overly triggered. Onto this we are even more angry because we thought this wouldn't happen again as we should know better. We get angry at them because they have caused us to be angry and it is all channeled into an over the top reaction.

Going back to the beginning of this is you have allowed a precedent of always promising to tell her every time you get a text, this is unrealistic and you have compromised your basic rights from the get go. it is an infringement you are bound to commit sooner or later. The rest is a predictable escalation. You just lost sight of your own trigger point.

Even now I will pass my trigger point occasionally and end up at the Mr angry voice point. But i quickly recognize this and have set a precedent of making myself scarce to prevent escalation while at the same time flicking my switch off. It does take time for that to become second nature though.

Totally understand how scary it is when you take yourself somewhere like this.

Also be very aware that she now knows how to trigger you into a blame situation, and it could be done deliberately in the future, regardless of how sorry she is now. So you really need to work on stopping yourself going there ever again.

You might not get a second free pass for responding like this again. You were lucky

Jr,

A couple ways of thinking about this that helped me... .

* Three sources of support that can help you be stronger are family and close friends (who might not have a clue about what you're going through... .but who care about you);  professionals (like a counselor or a wise member of the clergy);  and peers (like us here - people you know who have been through similar stuff).

Do you have all three going for you?  Or do you think you could figure out how to do that?

* Distance can help.  Is there a way to establish some distance between you and your girlfriend, so you can get your feet under you and get some perspective on things?

So sorry you are going through this. I have been in your shoes on the other side... luckily my ex would not try and accuse me of anything, but he did go to jail and other times, the hospital.He also told me he could tell the police I did it and I would go too. He did not which I am grateful for.  I was told to have keys and a suitcase in the car ready for me if I had to leave quickly. You have to have an exit plan. Eventually the police told me it was time to separate. They were tired of being called out. I never did anything. Most situations they say don't fight back because it will make it worse. I noticed with my ex it didn't matter. He kept on with what ever sick idea he had in his head. I could just stand there and he would still react. Several times I went running out of the house and left. Eventually I could come back when he calmed down. It's all very scary and it's awful to feel like you have to leave your own house. I would tread very carefully here. You could very well end up in jail. Then she will "feel so badly" that she put you there. How will you deal with that? Have you prepared someone to help get you out if/when that happens? I also noticed when you tell her that you will not put up with something, you do not have a consequence attached to it. Are you afraid you won't keep it? In all abuse situations, the abuse gets worse and worse. The more you put up with, the more they will try and push... .they lose respect for you. You need to respect yourself. I know this is a horrible situation you are in... .what are you going to do to protect yourself? You absolutely have to stop yourself from fighting back. Just leave and if you can not, then stand there and take it, I am sorry to tell you this, but it is the only option- no fighting back. There is talk this is what Johnny Depp has gone through with Amber Heard... .Do you see how that is turning out? We don't know for sure what happened, but she is running a smear champaign against him in what should have been a private divorce. You have to be very careful.  

I definately agree with you. I need to spend time with family and friends. I just need to prepare for her rage of fear, accusations and anger that I am doing something without her. God forbid I spend time with my mom. She thinks Im gonna leave her forever. I just need to suck it up and deal with what she will say when I tell her Im going to visit family. I know she will ask me why about 20 times. Its not enough to just say I want to see my family. She will ask why do I want to see my family? Then she will say I am selfish leaving her alone etc... .

Would you consider leaving her a note... .doing her the courtesy of telling her you're OK but taking some time away... .maybe not even specific about where... .and just going?

If you engage with her, there is high risk for you.

Oh no that will not go well. Just leaving without any notice or saying where? She will absolutely flip out. I mean that is like a volcano in new york. The anger from that would be uncontrollable. She lives at my house. I would fear what she would do to my stuff.

I can already see what she would say. I am going to meet a bunch of girls for some huge orgy or even worse.

Just today I talked to her for 20 minutes trying to calm her down. She was upset I got a random friend request on facebook from some random girl that doesnt even live in this country. I never have seen or heard of her. My GF was convinced I knew her or met her before and she was requesting me because she knew me. Its rough.

So... .how can you see things getting better?

You cannot negotiate your way out of this. You need to take action, and unfortunately there will be collateral damage. The fear of collateral damage is keeping you justifying and defending, ultimately undermining your own resolve.

Waverider, I'm not sure I understand - what do you mean by "collateral damage"?

Results of a pwBPDs "tantrums" spiteful and willful damage to property, tarnishing reputation, and all the ripples and consequences that occur as a result of saying "no", for example.

These things are always going to occur and it is difficult to fully predict, but the fear of the unknown, yet imagined, consequences stays our hand in making effective choices.

Eventually it happens anyway without even had any say in the course of events. The later we leave it the worse it is.

It started in agreeing to notify her of all texts received. That should have been the first "no". No doubt along with many other likewise deferrals in an attempt to not upset her. It increases the the spoilt sense of entitlement which creates the justification someone has to victimized outbursts with accompanying "payback" behaviors.

OK... .let's talk about that.

Girl says to Guy:  "Tell me about all the texts you get."

What should Guy say to Girl?

And no matter what he says... .isn't Girl likely to be upset if he doesn't do what she wants?

(In my own marriage I had this problem - Mrs. BPD Matt gave me orders constantly and if I disobeyed her orders she punished me.  I never figured out a solution!)

Yes, and there will be fall out, the longer it goes on and the further the goal post are allowed to go back the greater the consequences, the greater the feeling of injustice and the more the non reacts feeding the aggressors feeling of victimization.

You cant stop the girl being upset, it is trying to avoid it that feeds the fury. Aggressors want you to react so they can project the anger onto you in order for them to switch to aggrieved mode. You are now the bad guy, and your own conscience agrees with them. You hate yourself.

The text issue itself is most likely only symptomatic of an established sense of entitlement. I also had this issue and now only let her know if she hears a text arrive as I wont hide anything, but I refuse to have to "report in" .

If you cant establish things like this then you have to question if the relationship is worth having. It is just ongoing conflict waiting happen as expectation and resentment builds.

I really do understand the importance of setting boundaries. I also understand that I can only change my actions. The biggest thing for me is Im confused about what the best thing for me to do to set and hold a boundary when she crosses them.

I can say I think I made progress last night. She was amazingly sweet and loving all night and cooked this amazing dinner. She was loving, touching and affectionate torwards me without me doing anything. Then while we were eating randomly started saying that if she knew things would be like this when she started dating me she wished she never met me. I was very confused and stunned. I thought maybe she was thinking something and didnt mean to be so hurtful but it did hurt so I got my keys and told her Im going to the gym. Both of us were very calm. While I was driving I thought about it a lot and decided to shoot her a text saying "Ive decided I want to start dating someone who actually wants to be with me". She apologized and said she does want to be with me now and she didnt mean it the way I thought etc... .I actually agree with her that If I knew how hard this would be I would not have continued either so i kind of understand. Id never just come out and say that though because I know it would hurt her feelings.

Point of the story is that simple and very hurtful statement would have made me angry in the past and I would have argued with her but I decided its not worth it and I just left. Even if she didn't apologize I felt like I was ready to be done if she continued to be hurtful. 

I still dont understand how someone that is so sensitive to every word I say can be so reckless with her own words. The hypocrisy kills me

She has no filter.

Think about it. You have had serious questions about going forward - maybe more serious and focused than hers - you just don't say it.

The only difference is that she has no filter. You do.

If you had no filter, you would have said, "yeah, I'm on a website talking about how I can't be in a relationship with someone like you".

You are doing the same thing. The only difference is you have a peak into her vacillating human thoughts - she does not a peak into yours.

I agree. Is this common for BPD? Is it normal for someone with BPD to not have think about how it will make someone feel before speaking? At the same time she is so sensitive about what I say. I can say something non hurtful and she can twist it into something hurtful but she can say something very hurtful and doesnt think about how that may hurt me. Is that normal?

It would help to start reading the educational material on the site - even if only for 10 minutes a day.  Start with the main page.  *)

To answer your question... .at its core, BPD is about rejection sensitivity and lack of executive function.

The rejection sensitivity is what is driving all the accusations and more importantly, defenses. You have suggested threatening rejection (and used it - I won't have a baby with you) as a way to manage her.  This is like throwing gasoline on a candle in your living room to put it out. You need to be going the other way - building trust. She needs to know you have her back even when she is off center.  This is complicated thing to do - but just get the idea in your mind for now. Her feeling of a lack of trust will drive the end of the relationship. Building trust is not about doing as she says - its about understanding how to build trust and doing that.

The lack of executive function is explained here. https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=79702.0  When your boss comes in and says, JR, that report wasn't so good - you probably think "what a jerk" but your executive function kicks in and you say - "thanks for the feedback sir - I want to do well here". If you had no executive function, you would have said "what a jerk".

I know what I said was wrong. The problem was I was so upset by what she did and said I didnt care in that moment. Thats a hard thing to change but I can do it. I know I can. I feel like that's similar to telling someone not to hit back when someone is punching you in the face. You know at that time that the smartest thing to do is leave the situation but something takes over and you start thinking how messed up it is that someone wants to hurt you that bad for no good reason and you fight back. Ughh self control. Ok I can do this.

Let's talk just about boundaries... .super important and for me very difficult.

A boundary isn't a way to control the other person's behavior (though in time your boundaries might influence her behavior).

A boundary is a way for you to reduce the amount of chaos her behavior causes in your life.

Here's an example from my own experience:

I travel a lot, and my wife used to call me in the evening, and start in on me - long rants.  It upset me, kept me from working in the evening, and hurt my sleep.

Over time I learned to abruptly change the subject - "How are the kids?" - as a way to tell her, "I'm done listening to your rant."  Then if that didn't work - click!  I just hung up the phone.

My boundary was - and I never stated this to her, just put it into effect - "If she starts in on me I will hang up the phone."

Now I'm not saying that's the right boundary for you to set - your situation is your own and you have to figure out what boundaries will work for you.

Some examples might be, "If she gets violent or threatens me I will leave the house for 24 hours.";  "If she keeps me from sleeping I will lock myself in the other bedroom and sleep there.";  "If she yells at me I will leave the room." etc.  What you will do.

You can tell her your boundaries... .or just put them into action.  It's important to be consistent, and it helps to decide in advance what your boundary is... .so you're prepared.

Won't fix her.

Will help you.

Think about how to avoid getting in those situations in the first place.

Looking back, were there signals that - if you had noticed them - would have told you, "Trouble is coming!"?

And are there strategies you can use, to reduce the risk?

As an example... .some men in difficult relationships keep an overnight bag in their trunk - a few clothes, etc. - and also keep their wallet and keys on them all the time... .so if you need to leave the house you can do that without delay.

She has this issue, 10-fold.  If you can't be the "wisemind" there is going to be domestic violence.  If no domestic violence is your value/boundary then you need to be able to manage your side of the street and maybe even a little of hers.

Last time my partner slammed a door, I gave her no reaction at all.  The next day I asked if it made her feel better. She said yes.I then asked if she she would please hire a handiman to repair it. She did. Nothing else was said.  No door were slammed after that point.  I didn't give any fuel to the fire.


I learned what would set her off or more importantly, when she was likely to be set off and I managed myself accordingly.  When we hosted dinner parties, anything could set her off in the 12 hours before. I learned to get my "assignment" from her the day before and complete it early and volunteer to do things she wanted that were out of the house.

When you started doing this did it change her actions? Did she learn to stop "Laying in to you" at night? I have actually started hanging up on her when she "lays in to me" sometimes. For example if I am at work and I dont answer a text within five minutes she will call freaking out. She can go 4 hours without texting me back but if I go 5 minutes she freaks out accusing me of sneaking off with other girls in the office or whatever other crazy things she can think of. Sometimes she will call and go on and on and on for an hour and talk about all these horrible things she is thinking about and asking me 20 questions about why I didnt respond back in 5 minutes WHILE I AM AT WORK! I shouldn't even have to explain at all. Ive just started hangin up and going back to work. Sometimes she gives me the silent treatment the rest of the night or goes out with her friends when I do that. It makes me angry when she does that because I dont deserve it but the more she does it the more I just dont care.

The hard part about setting a boundary is she will not only punish me but she will punish me 10x worse than what I did to set my boundary.

That day she got so mad at me for not texting her when I left my office she retaliated by not coming home and then going out to a party and getting drunk while texting me that she was going to spend the night with some other guy because I hurt her.

Wow. I just read this. I actually cannot believe this happened. What the heck am I doing? Why did I put up with this? I would laugh if someone else typed this. I always thought I was such a strong person but I put up with this? I know why. I believed her hype about me being such a horrible person I actually thought I was doing something wrong but now I realize how manipulated and destructive she was. Sheesh. I cant even believe I allowed that. Wow.

I think we all have that moment when you look back and wonder how and why I put up with this... .

The answer is yes - she very quickly learned and quit doing that (except for maybe once a year).

But you can't go into it with the idea of changing her behavior.

You have to structure the boundary so it works for you either way.

For example, if she had kept calling me and ranting... .and each time she did it I hung up and then didn't answer if she called back... .even though her behavior hadn't changed I still would be better off.

It's worth thinking about how to set your boundary so it will work OK for you whether or not she changes her behavior.

I think your right. Your absolutely right. This was very helpful. Thank you.

I agree with this in part and disagree in part.

Clear values (and boundaries), conditioning, and structure is the best way to provide a constructive environment.

Yes, you can hang up and not answer, and when you get caught short, you might have to do that in extreme cases, but it is not an effective long term relationship tool. You can walk out of the house when she get angry and stay in a hotel but it is not an effective long term relationship tool.

Clear values (and boundaries), conditioning, and structure.

Clear values (and boundaries). Read our boundaries article - it lays out a good map for cooperatively negotiating how to handle things in time of calm.  The cooperatively negotiating part is really important.

Conditioning You need to learn how to respond to her impulses in a way that conditions her to be more constructive.  The first part is taking the defensiveness away - that triggers more aggression. The second part is engage in the drama of the moment at a constructive level (wow, I can understand why you are upset - I'll come home right t 6 PM and we can talk about this right away - let me get off the line so I can get done here).

Structure Read her actions - like all the comments about you seeing other women and realize that she is saying "you're not making me feel like the highest priority in your life". Put in some structure that makes her feel that... .

May depend largely on whether your top priority right now is improving the relationship... .or whether your top priority right now is keeping yourself OK and able to function well... .or whether your top priority right now is staying out of jail.

For me, the answer was 1) stay out of jail;  2) keep myself OK;  3) improve the relationship.

Might be different for each of us though... .

Of course a valid point.

I think the clear values (and boundaries), conditioning, and structure can help all three. But, yes, if you take the relationship off the table, then there are other options.


I asked this a while back. JR needs to get out if three and either go with #2 (which is what this board is about), go with #1 (go to the Detaching Board) or pick #3 and go the the Conflicted Board.

Here (this board) we talk about skills.  :)

We can relocate this thread to Conflicted.

JR - what do you want?

I would like #2 if there really is anything that will help. Looking back at things I know I took her lashing out personally and probably escalated the problems with my own reactions. Maybe my reactions were natural for normal people when being attacked but If I can learn how to "Condition" her to not act in such crazy, violent and hurtful ways I would like to carry on a relationship. She is the perfect girlfriend when she isnt either insanely jealous of these worries in her head that dont exist or raging mad for the smallest things. Her reactions are warranted if I do something horrible like cheat or steal her money or do something bad to her family. But I guess thats part of BPD is having over the top reactions to what should be minor annoyances.

OK, forgetting about her for a minute.

Your reaction was inappropriate.

She got pissy and slammed a door. You escalated to physically intimidation (screaming at close range), emotional attack (I don't want to have a child with you), and then physical attack.

You can't be this man to your live-in girlfriend.  You can be this man to me or some other guy being obnoxious in your space, but not her.

If your boundary is no violence - that means no violence - zero.

Walk the talk. Can you intellectually buy into this?

Absolutely. I agree. Thats what i want and thats what I know I need to do.

Great.

Matt makes a really important point.  You need insulate yourself from a false domestic abuse charge.  If she calls the cops, even if you did nothing, you go to jail.  She can't "drop the charges", the DA will go after you with or without her.

You need to anticipate fights before they happen.  Might be good to open a thread here, raise the issues you fight about (couples tend to go round and round on the same stuff) and talk about the signs of when a fight is coming.

Might also be good to go on the law board and talk about a male domestic violence safety plan. What do do when all else fails and confrontation erupts. And how can you create breadcrumbs that you can call in when you need them. "Yes there was two-way altercation back in June 2016. I went to to see my pastor and we had long discussion on my role - he gave me his number to call when I'm frustrated and that's what I do".

This is a side issue - don't mean to "hijack" the discussion - but it can be a very important point.

On TV, when someone accuses someone else of a crime, they may later "decide not to press charges".

In real life - at least where I live - that's baloney.

The accuser does not decide whether to prosecute - the prosecutor does.  And in domestic violence cases, women very often change their minds about what happened, or say they don't want him to be prosecuted... .but prosecutors almost always push forward anyway.  The reason is, they don't want women to be intimidated into changing their story.  They figure, if he was violent with her, then he committed a crime, and what she says later doesn't change that.

So... .if in your mind you think, "If I make another mistake, I won't go to jail, because she won't press charges."... .quit watching "Law And Order" and work on not making another mistake!

Not to redirect Matt and Skip's awesome advice, but don't forget the tools here, primarily validation, to diffuse a lot of arguments as well.  BPD is not a mental disorder it is a thinking disorder.  The information comes in, gets jumbled up, then strange stuff comes out the other way.  You have to be on your toes with what you say and what you do.  The severe abandonment issues with she thinking your cheating is a story that is playing in the background at all times with her.  This is the reality of your current situation.  Why?  Part of it is her disordered thinking, but part of it is her response to some of your own abusive behaviors.  In the past you have used threats and manipulation to get the outcome you wanted.  She hasn't forgotten obviously so for this dynamic to improve it will take some time of you taking care of your own sh*t.  Besides you need to take care of your own stuff with or without her right?

Really good point about understanding her thought process better.  I found that very, very difficult.

Here's an example related to her thinking you are cheating on her... .

My wife used to say to me, "I know there's something going on between you and Such-And-Such."  Basically any woman I worked with, or knew some other way, or even met, if my wife found out, she would think I was cheating on her.

Later, I remembered how often she used those same words - "I know there's something going on... ." - and I realized she was right:  She did know it.

It wasn't true, but she knew it.

The reason is called - if I remember right - "emotional reasoning".

My wife had experienced a strong feeling of abandonment when she was young - her mother died when she was little, and nobody told her how.  And her father sent her to live with distant relatives - in another state - and of a different race.  She must have felt completely abandoned by both her parents.

So... .as an adult, she feared abandonment and often felt abandoned, or felt that she might be abandoned... .and those fears must come from somewhere right?  Her spider-sense was telling her, "You're going to be abandoned!" - so that must mean I was cheating on her.

She was reasoning - I think - from her intense feelings about abandonment... .toward the knowledge that someone would be abandoning her... .to the perception that I must be cheating on her.  It's backwards reasoning - usually we first observe something, and then draw conclusions from that, and then experience feelings.  People with personality disorders sometimes use "emotional reasoning" - backwards from the emotion to the conclusion to the perception - without realizing they are doing that.

So... .it may be that your girlfriend's spider-sense is telling her something and she doesn't realize that she's reasoning backwards... .

This backward reasoning is across the board for pwBPD impulsive action or conclusion first then afterwards mold the reasoning to justify this action or conclusion. Rather than thinking things through an coming up with conclusions. It leads to elastic thinking

It applies to much of their thought processes on many issues

Well this specific pattern I describe, is very clear to me now... .looking back.

But I have to say that when I tried really hard to understand her thinking, I usually just made myself crazy.

It's very worthwhile learning about BPD and ways to interact that make things better (or don't make them worse).

It's kind of risky to invest too much of yourself in trying to truly understand someone's thinking who has BPD.

Feelings = reality.  My wife will say things like, "I hate when we are rushed to go here or there."  The reality is that we have plenty of time yet she "feels" rushed therefore to her we literally are rushed.  Or she might say "You make me feel stupid."  The reality is that I don't think she is stupid, but for some of the bizarre things she does she feels stupid so she will redirect that feeling, projection, on to someone else.  In your particular case she feels that you are cheating on her therefore you are.  It is very real to her even though you know it not to be the case.  Have you ever asked open-ended questions so that she can arrive at her own conclusions?  That might be something you could try.

Agree with this you can become too absorbed, and forget to give yourself time to have a life. Researching it can be addictive especially when you think the golden solution is to be found in the next book/article/post.

Apart from activity here I no longer read any books or articles on it.

Well I think initially - when you're first learning about BPD - there are a lot of good resources, including here on this forum, and "Stop Walking On Eggshells".  (The co-author of "Eggshells", Randi Kreger, founded this site by the way.)

Lots to learn about how you can deal with someone with BPD... .

... .but we have to also accept that we'll probably never understand it completely... .

Yeah thats how I feel fight now. This morning my GF had to work and I didnt. She looked sad and I asked... ."Babe why do you look so sad?" She said "I will be very busy at work and I wont be able to text you today. I wont be able to tell you to be good or know your doing the right thing." Even though we have dated a year and a half Im still surprised by stuff like this. I said... .Im going to be good no matter what. Even if you dont text me Im going to be good because thats what a relationship is about. Thats what it means to have a boyfriend. Then she sighed and said "I hope".

When she says good she means not cheat on her. I will never understand what that feels like. A fear of abandonment that strong must make you unable to even function. I feel sad for her if she really is constantly thinking about that. It just doesnt and probably never will make sense to me that she believes if she can just text me enough and tell me enough to be good then I wont cheat but if she cannot keep contact with me then I will just go off and cheat. Thats rough.

You seem utterly confused and frustrated at the moment which I find myself feeling as well, so sorry bro!  Even though I am going through exact opposite, wife is distant and withdrawn, it must be tough for you nonetheless.  You validated her fears and that is all you can do.  The fact that she added a "I hope" is just her own issue, nothing else you can do.  Can you separate yourself from that comment and relax knowing that you did what you could do and the chips are going to fall as they may?

Yes I can. I am not taking it personally. Actually just in the last week since I joined this board I feel 100x better. I have come to realize that its not me but its in fact her issue and also a disorder. I know Im not doing anything to make her feel this way. That helps me not take it personally and just brush it off.

I also have a game plan when she goes on about something that doesnt make sense. Im not going to argue about it or try to convince her of anything anymore because I know I will make more progress banging my head against the wall. Last night we were watching a movie and she said something crazy. We BOTH have instagram and I only post pictures of food we cook together, pics of me and her and pics of my car which I have fixed up quite a bit. I use to have my profile private so you had to request friendship but she didnt like that. She wanted it open so everyone (all the girls) could see that she is my girlfriend. So I made it public. Then last night I had a notification that some random girl started following me who I never saw before. She starts asking "how do you know her". "Why is she following you?". I told her I dont know her and I dont know why she started following me. Its just what people do on instagram when they like the pictures you keep showing. She knows this because guys follow her too. She kept asking questions and the same questions over and over and over again. "Why did she follow YOU"? Why? Why? Why? I tried to explain a little more and I felt like she was getting frustrated and if I continued she would start a fight. I got my keys and walked out of the house for a bit to just push away all that talk.

You cannot reason with her. Logic doesn't make sense to her. Common sense doesn't make sense. I dont know what happened but in my time away I guess she thought about it and understood when I got back.

I have tried to learn S-E-T communication but I found it difficult to use in this situation. She didnt really explain a worry. She just asked a bunch of questions but I knew deep inside there was a worry. I could use SET if she told me how she felt but this was different. I think I did the best thing I could at that moment. It worked at least. Any other suggestions?

It is extremely tough because I am not use to it. Its just a different way of reacting to people that I have never had to learn before. Now I am thinking about bigger picture things though that are a separate topic from this thread. The big questions is even if I 100% learn how to cope with her and we are happy forever other people in my life will not know. My family and any future children we have. How can they learn to cope with this or even accept it? Its a big and hard question. I really dont want my mom and my future wife fighting over something not worth fighting about.

This is where it shows similarity to OCD, like someone who cant trust that they have turned a tap off and has to keep going back to check. No amount of reassurance can convince them otherwise.

My wife was initially diagnosed as OCD for years, it was only because the object of her obsessions and insecurities kept shifting that caused me to look towards BPD. OCD tends to have entrenched obsessions that dont shift too much.

Reading about other disorders can often help to place BPD into perspective. The difference between sociopath and psychopath for example has close parallels with low vs high functioning BPD.  Often BPD is comorbid (concurrent) with other disorders, everything is not text book BPD and it is easy to overlook other influences

All I will add is that I, too, suffered physical abuse at the hands of my ex pwBPD girlfriend but I had the common sense to call the police on HER, twice. Both times she was arrested and charged with a misdemeanor and forced to attend anger management and after the second arrest, community service.

Like you, I reacted; if she started punching me I'd throw her to the floor like a skunk and stand over her threatening to crush her windpipe with my boot.

She totally could have had me arrested over those incidents and I am just plain lucky she never had the grounding to call the cops.

To this day (well, a few weeks ago) she still threatens to post some of her arrest pictures on Facebook and "out" me as an abuser.

When she threatens me like that, I tell her I will post one of the 100s of videos I took of her screaming at me and throwing tantrums over the years.

She pipes down. It's not an effective thing to do -- return a threat with a threat -- but it works. It shuts the skunk up.

The ridiculousness of it all will never, ever go away, in my opinion. I left and it's like a new life has been given to me. All the best to you.

It may be helpful to frame those questions and start a new thread to discuss them.

That thread could be here on this board, or on another board at this site if it would be a better fit.

A couple of comments about this paragraph:

* While you are going through this drama, it may be best to double-check that you are taking personal responsibility for birth control.  Quite a few of us here - including me! - have been told, "I'm on the pill.", and later found out our difficult relationship had become even more complicated.

* Quite a few of us here have been caught between our BPD significant other, and our "family of origin" - parents and siblings.  It's usually a good idea to find ways to maintain and strengthen those lifelong relationships.

*mod*

This topic has reached its post limit.  Please feel free to start a new thread to continue the discussion.