BPDFamily.com

just wondering the above

still trying to get my head around the confusion in my mind and emotions

indifference is supposed to mean someone doesn't love you whereas hate indicates love -but then if someone was indifferent to you surely they wouldn't bother reaching out -so how has he got from "pinnacle of love" to nothing -replacement probably helps -but still cant get my head round his choice who is totally anti what he finds attractive -if they always come back -why hasn't he? And why would they after a period of indifference? -is this to do with the Bowlby attachment theory stuff? And if he is in detached protector mode why would he go out with someone else?

isn't silent treatment a planned nasty behavior

Also why inflict on me his deepest fear of abandonment?

I guess I'm confused as to whether he may love me still or not? Unsure why this feels important for me to know

He just ended things eventually with full on silent treatment -with refusal of heart to heart -therefore denying our friendship also -this hurts as well -lovers can remain angry but friends tend to reach out -we were both -but now nothing

Did you guys have a 1 on 1 have to face meeting after the discard?

Sorry u have to go thru this.  U seem deeply wounded.  There is no logic in dealing with someone who has BPD.  A crazy mind is irrational and unpredictable.  Seems painful, but it is in you best long term interest if he never comes back.

You may never know if it's ST, if it's out of indifference, or if it's out of hate. There's really no reason to dwell on it. We know the fact is that he's not communicating with you. That's all that you really need to know right now. If you don't believe me, ask yourself what difference it makes? Would your life be any different either way? He would still be silent no matter which it is.

no

this is what sucks I cannot explain just how messy and bitty it was at end - he just spiralled out of control with drink and self harm - I had to flee home -he just wouldn't speak to me sober from then on-one point in this time- he said he thought he was making serious mistake with ending our relationship and wanted to give up drinking -I asked that he look into support and contact me back with what he found -he rang me drunk when he was meant to be saving our relationship and seeking help-had a few more cycles of this -until I said I couldn't be with him unless he got help for drink and BPD. I suggested we didn't speak for 6 weeks then talk -he agreed with this but then never contacted me (apart from bday) then there was issue of deposit money he owed me so had to communicate about that and he refused to communicate about anything else. He hasn't reached out. He did not tell me he was with someone else -I got that from his sister. He refused to communicate with me about that as well.

we did come face to face at a mutual friend bday party end of January after 7 weeks n/c -his bday was 12th Jan -I didn't text or ring him -he tried to ring but i had phone on silent and didn't answer it -the face to face meeting did not go well as I was upset he had not reached out -he said he did on his bday -he was disheveled looking -kept saying he was evil -the universe is infinite and will implode -why cant i just speak to him? -denying my right to be hurt at his behavior. He made hurtful remarks about me in front of friends -he said to our friends who are a couple "she must be really special that is why you have stayed together so long" but then told another friend he would kill him if he tried it on with me. He did apologise to me at the end of the night. I contacted his sister to let her know how worried I was about him -I contacted him to ask him to seek help -he said that is none of your concern in a reply -and onto more silent treatment interspersed with the cold messages about deposit.

That all sounds perfectly horrible. It sounds like you're suffering a lot from his treatment of you and your not being able to communicate with him. I know that, for me, not being allowed to express myself to someone when I want can be frustrating. Which brings me to this:


Denying your right to be hurt, or denying you access to express that hurt to him?

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Denying your right to be hurt, or denying you access to express that hurt to him?[/quote]
both really he just wanted me to act like nothing had happened and I've just had a lightbulb moment thanks! -as he always felt denied access to express his hurt to his father -or felt his father wasn't hearing him properly -I know nons can get counter transference -in fact i feel he has treated me in all the vile ways he hated his father treating his mother -bizarre

Depersonalizing all of this does make it a bit easier. Remember that it isn't really about you seems to take some of the sting out of it. At least it has for me.

well... .he doesn't want to "relate " to me anymore he clearly gave up on that and himself -i am suffering today -bad day -lots of bad days since my ex client died-

yes he's unwell, unpredictable -why did i give my heart to him? he's not capable of giving me a nurturing and protective environment -he doesn't want to provide that for himself

i feel he is doomed -i find that very depressing as i love him -even though i shouldn't after what he treated me like at end - i just do have empathy for him as know how damaging his childhood was and mine -i thought we were going to rise above it together - he always greatly admired me for what I had achieved -even at end he said I person he respected most in the world -yet treated me with no respect!

therapist not back for 2 weeks

il prob b on this site a lot more in these weeks

need all support i can at this time

As to why those with BPD traits give silent treatments, I think it goes to their inability to regulate their own emotions, and act accordingly. Remember, feelings = facts for many of them. For my ex, he would be overcome with emotions, I think fear of intimacy, and so he would rage, and then to explain it all to himself, retreat into justifying his behavior by shutting me out.

I see silent treatments as a very immature way to handle emotions. There can be an element of a kid taking their ball from the playground and storming home. But underneath it is actually a lot of unacknowledged fear and anger. I know under my ex's shell of rage and rejection is actually a hurting little boy. I cannot help that little boy. My ex has to be the one to contact him, bring him out and get him help.

A person who is not mature enough to communicate will use a silent treatment or ghosting to avoid taking accountability, such as if they found another partner and lack the integrity to tell you.


I've wondered that a lot about my ex, too. There is a lot of projection with this disorder. Remember, these are often people with impaired empathy. He's probably not thinking about your feelings. That's how he denies you the right to be hurt and angry. He's caught up in his own emotions, like the kid storming off the playground.

It's normal to wonder if our exes loved us or not. Perhaps the answer is they loved us as much as they were capable. Then the question turns to us: is that the kind of love we want? That we are worth?

If we radically accept them for who they are, we can start to move forward with our lives. Cherry Blossom, do you think you can radically accept that this is your ex: disheveled, selfish, self-pitying, saying hurtful things in front of others, giving you the silent treatment? And if you accept that, what kind of future would you like, presumably without him in it?

Can you explain -I though we had to be aware of both our parts in the relationship?

What is it about then?

I was a trigger somehow surely?

Yes, being aware of both parts in the r/s is good.

But, their part, the way that they treat us isn't about us, it's about them.

From what I understand, they start to feel close and intimate with us, they get scared, they lash out at us so that they can blame us rather than process their own feelings.

Yes, we trigger something within them.

its upsetting as take away the disheveled bit and that is how my mum treated me and sis growing up 

he knew about that and was so kind and caring to me a lot of time (so was my mum) He had a lot of empathy for me -but then it has ended like this

You may want to explore how your mum treated you compared to how he's treated you?

I think it is about us to a point as we allow it so they push it -I think they think that to love is weak or makes them vulnerable so when they sense we love and try to understand their difficult behaviors they push us more and more to see how desperate we are for their love or maybe to test our strength? Maybe to test their strength?

I think they are just protecting themselves from pain.

thanks for the different insights

I guess I'm back to wondering if he is a psychopath

I'm trying to understand the difference between BPD behavior and abuse

is there a difference?

do you mean pain from the fear of rejection?

why is the behavior so extreme? i guess maybe cos the feelings are so extreme?

What SMSS said.

Plus, when they push, once hooked, we can become desperate. So, we pull. The can see our vulnerabilities and weaknesses. This puts them in control. For some, like my x, it is a test of our love. How much will we give and endure? The second that the pushback happens the abandonment issues are triggered.

Our strength can be their kryptonite. It can cause them to run scared. It really depends on their triggers though. Confusing, huh? At least we don't have to live in their minds!

Any unwanted treatment that doesn't cease immediately when the perpetrator is told/asked to stop is abuse as far as I'm concerned.

The behavior is only as extreme as they need it to be to silence their own fears.

Geez Cherryblossom,

Feel like I could have wrote most of this about the hurt and rejection of silent treatment. Didn't see yours till wrote mine... .sigh. Hugs and sorry you are going through this. It is horrible and hurtful.

See I should change my avi maybe... .lol when finally chose didn't know you had one like.

Hope you feel better soon.

I just want to add another angle here.

I used silent treatment with my ex. I did so as I constantly was put in a position where I'd be given a choice and each option was wrong. I'd be raged at, violence was a possibility, I was scared.

I had to (for a long period) say that I would not communicate if this behaviour occurred. It set s boundary and helped. But long term it was worse than talking as it was taken to mean a lack of respect.

I would caution against using this as part of BPD as when your choices are leave and be accused of abandoning her, stay silent and be accused of being passive aggressive or talk & have something broken over your head, it focuses the mind.

thanks for ur replies

lilyroze great minds hey!

seenr i would never be violent to him but i was angry with him at time of split as so upset with his behavior and lack of commitment to change - i think he was/is with himself too so i can see how silent treatment could b useful strategy for him -but I'm a reasonable person and he knows that so to drag it for so so long with no reaching out after all we went thru and felt about each other and we got on well with each other family members / had mutual friends etc... .is just plain cruel and torturous and il never understand why he has been so cruel to me -my ability to think about another relationship destroyed - we were genuinely friends and that's what hurts the most and i will not reach out as it is not my place-he does not care what pain im in -how does he know if im still alive? he thinks nothing of me and it is so painful

i feel like he is trying to inflict his pain on me why am i allowing it still?

i cant allow him to destroy me i got too far without being destroyed and the man i truly loved the most turned out to be the greatest foe

im terrified im done over this

Whatcha mean?

im terrified i wont come thru it, i'll live rest of my life a depressed bitter mess

im v low today

hormonal

work tough atm

no fixed abode

lots of lovely social things going on god knows where id b without those but not really able to properly appreciate anything right now

Of course you'll get through it. You don't really have any other option!

I know the low feeling all too well though. The social gatherings will help with that in time. The hormonal and work stuff will change too.

That leaves the abode. That is a fixable problem. Ya just need to develop a plan. Can you do that?

Im so sorry you are going through this Cherryblossom.

I remember telling my exBPD one time that the worst emotional abuse that could ever be done to me is to be given the silent treatment. For my personality, its what damaged me the most. I was recounting a story about a friend from college who had done that to me, for no reason. I told him this long before I discovered he had BPD. So when the long silent treatments eventually came from him it felt like "he knows this is damaging me and hes doing it anyway".  Its like a switch is turned off in their head. They have used this as a coping mechanism probably for along time, to several people.

Remember spending a wonderful long weekend with him and never felt so much love and caring from him. Said he was thankful for me and how ive stuck by him through his ups and downs. About four days later I called and left message for him that I was getting tested for cancer and I was waiting for results and he said texted back he was sorry to hear that and he probably couldnt see me on Valentines weekend. Then silent treatment for three weeks. Whats scary is that when I finally got results back I did not have cancer I cried and cried, because my friend had decided he was so indifferent to me he couldnt even ask what the test results were. 

  Actually, silent treatment should be seen as emotional abuse.  If someone does it for sudden indifference its infantile and mean. If a grownup who is close to you does it out of anger or "hate" then all you can do is wait for it to subside. Any more words from your end just throw fuel on the fire. I cant even imagine being married to someone who acts like that every time you have a disagreement.

I hope things get better for you. When I went through this I cried everywhere (the gym, grocery store,in the car). Was probably hormonal too which certainly didnt help. Friends and family worried about me incessantly. When I eventually heard from him he acted like he had absolutely no clue as to why his behavior had affected me so. This kind of behavior when on with him many times after that.

Do you really want to know what it is? I will tell you. It's typical Bpd immaturity. They are mad. They think you did something wrong so they run and pout. Please, don't let his actions injure you! This is a sign YOU are to strong for him. He is a paper tigar with a big roar. Accept his Silence and give silence in return. You will never know what's behind his actions because he probably doesn't even know. All you should know is he has zero conflict resolution skills and he has an arrested development.

  Cherry Blossom, I'll write more on this when I'm not rushing out the door, but I speak as someone who lives around 4 mins' walk from the man i love and am currently undergoing my ... .4th? bout of ST. There have been different reasons why, and it was SO bad until last month that (if you can find my posts) he wouldn't even actually catch my eye. He literally walked past me as if invisible. For 6 months. I wanted to die from the heartbreak. I was being heavily punished for a perceived 'crime' I'd committed, which I admittedly had a part in as I am obviously not flawless, but the punishment far exceeded the misdemeanour.

About 6-7 weeks ago, he suddenly broke that spell and I spent several wonderful nights with him - long story, it's elsewhere on the board.

Sadly, 2 weeks ago there was a HORRIFIC incident when a so called friend of mine attacked him in a psychotic drunken rage. In less than 10 minutes he went from talking to me to leaving the bar saying he was evil and to get away from him because he doesn't deserve me.


I have now seen him twice since, including yesterday, and he is pretending once again that I don't exist. I am devastated but I'm also sadly getting used to this.  I am also crystal clear that this time, this is 100% to do with him shutting down because his deep seated self hatred was brought into focus when he was put under attack. At the time I was trying to protect him and was extremely distraught. Look at his final words to me - that he's an evil person. Now, considering that the last time I'd been in the same room as him it was in his house and then he kissed me goodbye before going on holiday, do you think he's ignoring me because he hates me? or that he's indifferent?  It's neither. He hates himself.  He thinks he's a bad person. Someone else shouted that in his face. Granted, he wasn't treating me well at all, but I would never have attacked him in this way knowing him as I do.

His silence is a lack of being able to process his emotions. He's in turmoil when he sees me (the constant push/pull coupled with a very strong physical attraction) and doesn't know what to say or do. He has in essence 'flipped' to his other persona  - I've seen it before. I am quite sure he's not angry with me. How can he be?

What I also know is, with almost 100% confidence, that he will talk to me again. This has become so much the pattern that all of my friends and family have remarked along the same lines. So what I am trying to tell you is, that yours probably will too. I can't offer any reason as to why yours is giving you the ST but you can rest assured that it's not indifference. It may be hate, mine told me on the night he started talking to me again that he hates me - didn't stop him kissing me later lol. I'm also not saying that's necessarily a good thing as so many here advocate total no contact - but I know only too well the pain of being ghosted and wanting nothing more than that person to talk to you.

I feel almost tired myself, here I am back on the merry go round. I'm getting slightly bored of it. For months I have walked round town with my heart in my mouth from fear of being rejected/ignored. But it happened less than 24 hours ago and all I felt this time was almost "wow... .really?" What a coward he is. But i know him for what he is, and when he's ready, he'll talk.  It's cr*p for us, but you just have to get on and fill your day with other things for now.

Watch this space. Keep us posted!

There comes a time when we all must draw a line.  That line needs to be drawn in stone.  It is the line that says enough is enough, this is unhealthy and destroying me.  We choose who we want in our lives, hopefully those choices are centered around mutual respect.  

Respect ... .the one thing that sits at the core of every healthy relationship we have.  Those who don't show or treat us with respect have what place in our lives?  The answer to that question for me is NO PLACE AT ALL!

The many forms that ST can take, it is fundamentally disrespectful.  

This is the stance (see Bold) I'm finding some solace in during my ST / discard from my exBPD after 3 months going NC. Truth is from my experience is that, there was ZERO adult type communication when we were together when it mattered during 'conflict resolution'. She would communicate w/ me over text 75% of the time after I repeatedly asked that we should not rely on it as much. We would 'argue' over text and email because she couldn't talk to me in person. When we did disagree she would go away from a couple days ST and then come back and tell me how horrible i made her feel. But ya see, the original issues about "US" I was trying to convey were never resolved because i would always end up apologizing for making her feel bad. I was so manipulated in retrospect and would always walk away from our disagreements shouldering the blame of both the cause of the fight and now "misundestanding'. ALL my initial concerns about "US" would ultimately be ignored, it was always about her. It was never about "US". Or god forbid, me?

My point - In my experience my pwBPD traits could never effectively communicate when we were together, why I'm thinking now after 3 months time she will miraculously find her voice and see me as worthy fella to express her feelings too is beyond me and an it's what I'm working on accepting about our dynamic.

I broke NC a week ago now; sending a very short neutral email after randomly seeing her in public. As, she gave me a big smile and wave? Really, a smile and wave to guy who treated her poorly and whose phone number you erased? Has she painted we white again? NO.

I realize now that, her ST for me is that she doesn't have the tools to be empathic to what I'm feeling, like most 'normal' people can handle after a breakup. I represent a horrible time in her life and by talking to me triggers all those insecurities in her. Sadly, it got to the point where I felt provoked so much that she transformed me into a nasty, defensive person ( and yes I am healing and understand those behaviors and how wrong they were) So, after awhile that 'mirror' that we all speak about... was showing her the very evil person she was. Quite simply: She doesn't want to look back into that mirror ever again.

MAYBE one day she'll get help and reach out to me but, I'm not holding my breath.

I think Miele and some other people on these forums have had some little success with their pwBPD traits and getting to a better place with them. And, laying a foundation perhaps for a better future with them after the final discard or separation. Of course everybody has a different situation as no two people are alike.

Cherry Blossom. I too and very sorry your going though this too. I'm right there with you. I've sorta 'reset the clock' with reaching out last week and am kicking myself.


So, given my situation, I agree with c.stein. ST is disrespectful. And the ultimate form of abuse in my opinion. Its a form of psychological warfare in some way.

Drawing the line is essential. And, I feel once we get up the courage to draw it, the very act of holding it is where the true healing begins.

Thank u darlings for getting back to me with advice and support. Im sorry that some of u r feeling same sort of pain as me right now. I feel frustrated as i felt close to drawing that line beginning june when i got back from holiday, but have taken steps backwards. I have heard recovery is not a straight line. Holding on is giving me comfort but also pain. I feel like I am not in the right frame to let go - having said that i want to let go ASAP! I guess you would call my situation - ambivilance - mayb i need to do motivational interviewing with myself! I was thinking of starting a thread r.e how people who detached successfully did so i.e what was the process? What helped? Xxx

Well, the first step is to decide to detach.

And, you are correct, recovery is not a linear process.

Thank you ever so much for this

Just to interject quickly here with a slightly 'different' viewpoint.

Whilst I utterly agree that ST is a type of 'psychological warfare', whilst we all know how utterly devastating and painful it is, how cruel for the recipients (i.e. me, Cherry Blossom and others on here) I still think we need to counter this viewpoint with the fact that we are talking about people with BPD! Not people who think like us, but on an entirely different plane. Forgive me, but I think some of you are attaching far far too much 'wicked intent' to ST in these scenarios, because we, as more rationally thinking people, if you wish to put it like that, would never do such a thing unless really REALLY angry with someone, past the point of no return etc. We know the pain it inflicts and how devastating it is.

For me, I have learned to see his ST not as a 'punishment' doled out by him to hurt me, as I illustrated in my previous reply. A friend of mine brilliantly helped me to rationalise it a while back by saying to me, quite simply, he's frustrated. That's why he literally walks away (e.g. from the bar) when it all gets too much. He literally walks out, mid sentence, without looking back if he doesn't like how a conversation is going. I've seen it 3 or 4 times now, every time followed by ST. Every time it has eventually been broken.  Looking back, I can clearly see that each of those scenarios involved him getting the heat turned up on him, or a difficult conversation happening... .not an argument, a difficult emotional conversation. Every time I believe it has stirred up his feelings of guilt, shame and self hatred, and this has triggered a bout if ST. My ex seems to forget, when he texted me to tell me how angry he was with me at Christmas time, that he already wasn't talking to me anyway after leaving me (again) because he said 'it's the best way'. That we see each other and apparently act like strangers in front of all our respective and mutual friends, is apparently better than even saying 'hello' and acknowledging one another. I know that when he sees me, he wants me. That is the bottom line. And it's reciprocated. So for him, it's all or nothing, and because he can't process or deal with these difficult feelings (pushing me away but still wanting me in some way) he instead chooses to totally pretend I don't exist, and then stops talking to me.  Until next time,  lol


I have now learnt to mirror his silence every single time, and trust me, it's getting easier. It is him who breaks it, every time, and I am the constant who never went anywhere in the first place. Of course it hurts, a lot, but I know it for what it is. A coping mechanism, albeit a very poor one. I have seen him do it to another ex as well as to acquaintances.

Finally, please remember this - ST is almost certainly TAUGHT; my school teacher friend is currently watching a 6 year old doling it out to 'the weakest link' in the classroom (it's being pulled up on). I wouldn't mind betting that that child is receiving similar treatment at home, I am certain of it. There are some interesting articles on this topic if you care to Google it, and sadly, I am pretty sure that someone did this to my ex when he displeased them, or he has seen it done to someone else. No 6 year old dreams up that treatment, surely.  So, as awful as this is, please try to temper your judgement of the intent behind it by remembering who we are talking about here, damaged and hurting individuals.


I don't think they are thinking for 1 second about the pain they're inflicting, and anyway, even if he is, my ex wouldn't have been very successful because I've refused to show the tiniest glimmer of a reaction. Not once. Dying inside, I have mirrored his behaviour exactly.  They are,  I think, trying to mitigate their own pain and internal conflict. It's unfair and it's painful, but it's not about us, it's about them. Really.

This might prove to be interesting reading on ST:

BPD BEHAVIORS: Silent treatment (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=68733.0)

I agree Stripey - some of us are perhaps farther along is the stages of grief. Eventually I'm sure we all get around to acceptance. However, sadly Anger is a stage. And within that stage, yes I do know 'it's about them' and that's the problem we feel. It's always about them? I'm not sure I'm past that part of the puzzle that is BPD.

But, fully realize the idea is to not get stuck with the anger for very long.

Its certainly a process. And the mere fact we participate in these forums is to challenge ourselves and our beliefs so we can evolve better people. I just wished my xBPDgf had a place where she can go to heal so well. With a similar group of compassionate, open minded and intelligent people!

 i do hear what some of you are saying about having some perspective as they are so hurt and damaged -i do have compassion and i will come back to it fully but at this stage what c stein said has really helped as yes st is disrespectful---- to himself, to me and to the relationship -and demonstrates his unwillingness to create a safe nurturing dynamic/environment/relationship -with himself or others -some people with similar or worse backgrounds than him make the decision to change and heal. I want to be around someone with motivation to heal/learn/grow -it can be done -and it is this realisation which will help me detach again x

It is disrespectful... .if disrespect is the intention behind it. I'm not so sure it is, that's what I'm saying.  The notion of wanting to change, to heal, to get help and so on, is a lovely one, but only really possible if the person in question even recognises that there is a problem and then wants to fix it. They may very well think that this coping mechanism serves them very well indeed, and be quite unaware of the heartbreak and confusion it causes. It's obviously a way of life, to some at least, including my ex.  I wouldn't perceive it as trying to be disrespectful, but simply an attempt to feel better about a certain situation. I reiterate, they're not thinking of the effect on us, only the temporary relief it provides in avoiding conflict, and the processing of emotions ... .and reality.

... I don't mean to highjack the thread here but:

In there is what I always get caught on. IN order to feel better about 'themselves' they treat us improperly, poorly... or with disrespect some would say. Its like we allow pwBPD to continue their bad behavior. We accept they are 'disordered' so therefore, they need not be held responsible, get a free pass ?... and that all the 'respect' rules we learn growing up need not apply to them ? Perhaps in a court of law its the Insanity plea perhaps. Just feels that after awhile and at some point ... they need to know what they are doing IS hurtful to people and it IS disrespectful... My frustration lies in these facts and I know it doesn't apply to all people here.

Fact: My 35 year old uBPDxgf has her MASTERS DEGREE in Social Work, went to an Ivy League school and is a Social Worker by profession. I'm having a hard time accepting the ignorance plea is all for somebody who is an adult now and claims to 'help people' and has a solid education. This has been my personal struggle. And, I do understand that there are 'Highty functional ' people who have this. Its just been tough to find acceptance under the same standards that we are held too... is all. In there lies the rub perhaps

... but again, I'm just now in the anger stage so, please - disregard my devil advocate nature tonight. I'm just expressing some: frustration + confusion = Anger.  

It's OK Mars, we all feel some anger about all of this. It's natural and healthy. Just don't live there for too long and get stuck. When you're ready, you will move on to the next stage.

I've spent so much time and energy trying to frame my ex's behavior in terms of coping mechanisms. SO much. I do think that's the reason he ghosted. He said as much to me (about someone else) years ago: that he freezes people out when things are too hard for him to face. I also think he convinced himself (in my case) that he was justified, because both freeze-outs were preceded by him lashing out at me.

But here's the thing: it was still disrespectful how he treated me. Both things are true: it was a coping mechanism, and it was disrespectful. It matters not at all what his intentions were. He coped by doing something disrespectful.

Explanations are not the same thing as excuses. That's the standard I hold myself to, so why shouldn't I hold other people to it? Finding the root cause of my own hurtful behavior does not make the behavior un-hurtful. It doesn't un-hurt the people who I hurt.

Reflecting on what I wrote, I think it's this fact that erases for me any doubt about whether his behavior toward me can be considered disrespectful.

He manufactured an excuse to freeze me out--a way in which I "deserved" it. He would not have felt the need to do that unless he knew it would hurt me.

In my case I think part of my ex knew his behavior was hurtful. Why else reach into his bag of barbed poison arrows and say the things he knew would hurt me the most? Yet at the same time I don't think he really knew he was hurting me. Because in so many ways I didn't exist for him. Not really. Not as a person.

People who can't self-reflect often lack empathy, and without empathy there isn't much conscience. Of course not all pwBPD are the same, I am sure some are more developed in empathy than my ex. But for me this helps explain how someone who chooses hurtful behaviors, or fails to control the impulse. It is that at the end of the day they do not take accountability for the outcome.

Steelwork, I agree. Understanding the reasons for the behavior doesn't mean we are justifying it, or enabling it, or diminishing the hurtful impact. At this point all I can do is keep myself safe from it by detaching. I think it helps to understand that these are coping mechanisms because then we know it isn't just us. I don't think my ex set out to hurt me. I think he let himself hurt me. Regardless, the outcome was the same.

Absolutely not is BPD, traits or otherwise, a 'get out of jail free' card to explain away bad or hurtful behaviour. All I am saying is that it goes some considerable way to explaining the motive behind it, and I firmly believe now, in my case at least, that it is less to do with trying to inflict pain and more to do with trying to balance an internal conflict. Granted, we, the 'nons' may well be the face picked out as the target for the ST, we are in all likelihood a trigger of some kind. As partners/ex-partners/lovers, we are some of the people who got closest to them and saw them at their worst.  My ex has just had someone shouting and screaming in his face, on my 'behalf' what an nasty b*stard he is. It isn't a coincidence that he's now walking past me again. He would have done it again anyway at some point further down the line, I'm sure, but this most certainly didn't help.

But I don't think that the person who walked out saying he was evil is punishing me with his silence. I think he's just shutting me out because it's easier than facing himself. I am a reflection of the poor treatment he's given me, and someone told him about it, at close quarters and in no uncertain terms. Even if he didn't grasp what she was saying (very drunk, psychotic, and in a mix of languages) the sentiment was unmistakeable. I am so sad about it, my heart is very heavy today. But logically, I also know that the ST will end, for sure.

I am not excusing or justifying it, not one iota. I am gently suggesting to you all, that rather than apply our own frameworks for what is acceptable behaviour, and our own expectations, we try to look at this from a slightly different angle. If it truly, truly is the case that the BPD is trying to wound and inflict pain and disrespect, why is it, that having done it to me on previous occasions and garnering no reaction whatsoever, none, my ex still falls back on this defence mechanism? Surely he would have changed tack by now and tried something else if he wanted to hurt me. And why would he want to hurt me anyway, in this case? I was standing by his side defending him.

So all I am trying to say is, we need to stop applying the reasons we normally do for why someone would go into ST, or other such tactics, and stop assuming that with our exes those reasons are the same. Sorry to sound like a stuck record, but it really is about them, not us.

Without disputing how disrespectful the behavior is, because there really is no disputing that we feel disrespected, it might help to depersonalize their actions.

When I ended my r/s with my x, she lashed out in a way that I have not experienced since I was a pre-teen. She flat-out stated, "You hurt me, so I'm going to hurt you," and she gave into her impulses by attacking me with a barrage of insults and hurtful behavior that was specifically designed to cut me as deeply as she could. She took all of my deepest fears that she knew I have and acted upon them; all of them.

I know that she did this with the intent to crush me because in subsequent conversations she told me that is what happened. That she specifically engineered her words so as to do as much damage as possible.

Her actions didn't have the desired effect though because I saw them for what they were. I knew that she was lashing out because of her own fear and pain. I knew it was a symptom of what she was experiencing and it wasn't about me. I didn't make it personal or internalize it. Yes, it still hurt (and hurts) and was disrespectful, but it didn't devastate me as she had hoped.

When we don't take it personally, even though it is very personal, and we don't internalize the actions of a pwBPD, we can mitigate the damage and pain. I will freely admit that it's hard not to take a proverbial slap in the face personally, but by depersonalizing it and recognizing it for what it really is, a symptom of a disorder, we can lessen the affect.

Please do not take that to mean that I am justifying, rationalizing, or condoning the behavior. I am not. It is still wrong to do these things to someone; especially someone that you love and loves you.

There are so many sides to a thing like this. So many ways to swing off-course in your recovery. Stripey, I recognize myself in much of what you say. my gentle corrective to your gentle corrective was meant also to answer the OP. At some point in your detachment (and for me it's at 1.5 years!), you do well to remember your own value in all this. the behavior is disrespectful. The explanation of that disrespect matters in an ongoing relationship because it gives you information you can use to either work on things or decide not to. Those aren't options in a dead one. That's what it finally comes down to for me.

You said, "It is disrespectful--if disrespect was the intention behind it." I would venture that it's disrespect AND a coping mechanism in most cases, BPD or no. For the detacher, neither personalizing it nor justifying it is a great idea.

Hi Steelwork, agreed... .but then I'm not justifying either. I am trying my hardest, right now, (whilst fighting a real feeling of despair that this has happened at all, and being very low about it), to just this once NOT take it personally and to try to understand at least in part what his perspective might be. I am absolutely not saying it's ok, at all. How can it be when it hurts as much as it does? I've just kind of learned to live with it.

 

overall st is a very difficult thing to deal with -it doesn't seem to get any easier with time -this isn't a well planned nc -this is st -this is in response to me pleading to get answers and appealing to his better nature. Defence mechanisms are not indestructible -with courage people can overcome issues. He knows he has been diagnosed with BPD -he could look it up more and get help. He has watched this is England / girl interrupted and touching the void ? he knows he has something to conquer and that it affects relationships

Thinking that he might not being thinking about effect on me and trying to cope doesn't really help me at this time. I am angry -I flit between compassion and anger regularly. Maybe it will help me down the line. I cant help but take it personal if I have been in a relationship with him it makes me feel worthless -like nothing -it confuses me and taunts me -it torments me -and the scary thing is -is that I feel like my brain is used to feeling like this now -so I function and do nice things -but still with this cloud over me -not fully present -it is better than I was back few months ago -at least im not anxious now and paranoid

I still feel regularly as we all may have felt at times like perhaps me and my ex are the possible 2% that could make it work

The same sort of thinking that kept me staying for so long when I could have put better boundaries in long before. I just didn't want to believe that something that felt so amazing and how we were so connected could be wrong or untrue. I have to stop beating myself up though as I did not know he had BPD until end nor did he -so we couldn't put any skills into practice. I knew he had ocd and was struggling with that and thought the issues in our relationship were because he was struggling to come to terms with that diagnosis -ironically the intensive ocd treatment therapist said she thought he was very sensitive opposite to father and had a conscience that is why he has ocd -however his behaviour with me does not indicate a conscience or empathy -I feel he is a copy of his narcissistic abusive alcoholic father-even though he didn't like his behaviour -I thought he was working hard not to be a controlling abusive person but he was all along how did I not see it or want to see it?



Skip has commented in past threads something along the lines that our relationships with our ex's are unique even though BPD is involved. This is why I find it hard to try and advise anyone on these boards as I don't really feel like I can. It's all unknowable at end of day we can try and apply certain rules to help detach -doesn't mean they will work amazingly well for all of us -or that we will grasp them straight away. Nothing feels clear cut about my situation at all -I find it hard sometimes when I get a range of different responses / perspectives that seem very clear cut and definite

Sometimes the responses I get on these boards confuse me more -sometimes they help as they widen out my perspective -but they generally confuse when I am in a generally confused state anyway!

I get it, cherryblossom. I really do. You articulated a lot of feelings. Maybe that's where you need to focus now: on how you are feeling. Maybe don't worry so much right now *why* you are being met with this painful silence. When you are less raw, then you might have more use for thinking about his coping mechanism, etc. Just remember that you deserve kindness. Everyone does. ST makes you feel awful, because it makes everyone feel awful, because you are a human being.

Bless u steelwork that feels very validating thank you 

 

An update

Am getting more to a place where I can see the ST as a function of the disorder and am not personalising it.

I can fondly remember our connection before the BPD kicked in -whatever happens in my life now nothing can take away those beautiful memories -I know full well they were true for us both. Also I recognise I have no control over anything.

I do want to reach out but want to do it when I feel better able to accept whatever outcome I get/or not get-my therapist says there is nothing wrong with me reaching out but I must be prepared that I may not get desired outcome and to keep in mind he is capable of making me very sad and angry -I need to be in an even better place before I do and I need to feel like I genuinely do not mind what response I get. She wants me to be sure I am not doing it to placate any sense of longing/or to restore a missing part of me -she wants me to get back to genuinely knowing I am enough- without him. I'm gradually regaining my sparkle, creativity,confidence and power.

Commenting on many of the posts in this thread, I believe this wholeheartedly... .

The way you conduct yourself during fights, and silent treatment, make you captain of the ship.

If my exUBPDgf would throw a tantrum, call me horrible names and hang up on me, I am presented with then at that point with the "conflict".

Realize that the course of conflict is determined not by the person who initiates the conflict, but by the person who responds.

After she would throw a fit, hang up. I then have 2 options:

1.) Call her back, which she will 100% guarantee ignore. And ST begins. As long as I call, she will not respond.

2.) If I don't call her back, but just go back to what I was doing, I 100% guarantee she will call me. Within 30 minutes, a few hours, it doesnt matter.

Silent treatment I learned long ago after so many horrendous rounds of being "punished" with it... .Is that the countdown clock for hearing from her- given that's what I am after, begins the moment I stop calling. Period. If I continue to call. She is "fine" and feels "needed". My pain is not part of her decision making process.

Secondly, my ex and I recently saw eachother last Monday. I was confident, feeling good, and she showed up angry and in a terrible mood. I was nothing but nice. She insulted, I responded jokingly, and again, nothing but compliments and nice.

Eventually, I said, lets get out of this coffee shop, people could hear, and walk to my place. So we start. She then throws a tantrum. She doesnt feel "safe" alone in my place. (As if!). She stomps off after I say its hot, humid, lets go in.

I just watch her walk off. And I go up.

10 Minutes Later... .Phone rings. She wants to come up.

Again, and I have always felt this way (even before I knew what BPD was), is that with BPDs, you are many times dealing with a person who lives in an Upside Down world. Where everything is the opposite.

If you want your partner to be attentive to you, my experience has taught me I must remain indifferent in terms of how I present myself.

If at the end (where I am now) I realize how bad off she is and I need to get away, the best MO is to call her and be needy-- which I am doing. She is currently giving me ST, and to say the least I've put on a good show. Calling, texting, emailing. ZERO response. Which I feel is needed for me. If I stopped this, she would call within a week, and might trigger the feelings I do in fact have for her. Pull me back in. Just to crush me later.

I even went so far as getting an app on my phone that calls on a timer. So I don't have to even think about it. Works like a charm.

So right now, I'm honestly playing a childish game, with yes a grown woman with the maturity and emotional IQ of a child, because I have to. I am doing this to make her think I am needy, and want her to call me so badly, because if I do that-- I can get some distance. I need that now. She cheated on me. I still have feelings, but the longer I am able to not hear from her, see her, etc. The more "indifferent" and less hurt I will be.

In terms of indifference or hate... .my ex would flip flop love and hate like flipping a coin. So I don't know that they really know "love" "hate" and "indifference".  

I think they think and work in a world more along the lines of "need" "fear" and "occupied and don't need you at the moment".

My silent treatment has happened since the split he never did it in the relationship - well sometimes would not contact me for a few days when staying away- rare tho and it didnt affect me. He is also now with someone else. It has felt so hard as to have someone you thought really cared about you suddenly engage in such next level burn bridges type behaviour is very shocking. I have blocked him from Facebook -so really our story has met the end - it's just not been that easy as my heart has felt like it is missing a big piece and genuine connection. Logically I know it's right to be apart. Mayb I just want some continued acknowledgement our connection was very special. Mayb it's not wise to seek that from him and figure it out in my own head as ive been doing gradually. I guess i find it hard if he was indifferent about our connection if im still not feeling indifferent - also if he hates me then he is not going to b thinking of me and our relationship in a positive light. Why does any of this matter now tho? 

Hi cherryblossom,

I agree with your therapist. And I'd encourage you to refrain from reaching out the minute you feel better. It's very, very tempting, but I encourage you to wait a little longer. Of course we are all different, but in my experience, when I first took a break from the relationship, thinking we could just be friendly, I wasn't as ready (detached) as I thought I was, and got burned (recycled) badly.

You are regaining your sparkle, creativity, confidence and power again—that is huge! Well done.  |iiii  Keep building on that, keep working toward your freedom. I see it like this: putting contact with your ex on the back burner for now is equivalent to putting yourself first and foremost. Doing that will improve every part of your life, not just help you in this situation.

heartandwhole

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