BPDFamily.com

Hello everyone! Thank you so much for being here - this is my first post and I am finding this to be such a useful resource in such times of confusion and hurt.

My ex-girlfriend was diagnosed with BPD back in October, when we were still together (we broke up in April).

She had actually suggested the breakup since her mother had just died (she also had many other personal issues) and agreed that she couldn't be there for me in the ways that she wanted to (I had brought up how I had been feeling slighted and quite neglected, since I was).

We kept in touch for about a month and a half afterward, all extremely loving and bright - looking forward to our future together and so on - but once I asked to speak about the breakup to clear the air on my end (all good things and she knew it!), she disappeared on me completely. Three text messages over the course of a month and no answer.

Since then we ran into each other at a local pub and had a very intimate 20 minute interaction, with her reaching to hold my hand and she held me in her arms. She told me she loved and missed me and suggested we meet for dinner that weekend and bam - disappeared on me again. It's been about three weeks since.

She has not blocked me on any form of social media or changed her phone number. In other words, she has taken no action in ridding me from her life, which I do find quite strange given the circumstances.

I cannot explain to you how intimate our relationship was (though I'm sure some of you could relate) - we were each other's best friends, lovers, confidantes, and more.

There were certainly some warning signs throughout the relationship - when she first told me she loved me, she also told me that she "didn't know what to do with it" and didn't "understand what it was doing to her" - I never knew what that meant. She also told me multiple times that she had never pushed someone away so much and had them still be there for her - a sure sign that I was not the first person she has pushed away for "no" reason. Besides these points, the whole relationship was a series of push/pull events, her pulling me closer and closer only to push me away before pulling me back. She also always suggested that she had a lot of growing up to do before we get back together, but we always reunited to prematurely

When I asked her why she disappeared over text message multiple times back then, she didn't answer -- I was just wondering if pwBPD always do have answers. I have heard that some do not always know why they act the way they do and therefore cannot supply any form of closure or reason, since they might not even know themselves - is this true? Was anyone else cut off without any specific reason? Do they ever come out of it and return?

I recently watched a video that may have explained it for me.  They are never excited about anyone or anything in life for too long.

They know what there doing when they do it,my ex would make excuses then tell me the truth about how she needed chaos and stability drives her crazy,I'd like to share a phrase that has stuck with me through all my research and seems true , they spend the rest of Their lives reenacting there own abandonment,which is so true always drama and a path of unnecessary destruction behind and Infront of them,another phrase I'm coming to terms with is this,the disorder always wins.

Our relationship too was (extremely) intimate. I knew she wasn't use to intimate relationships. But its the only way for me.  The only way I know to express my feelings. I guess it was more than she could handle. But for the most part, she tried. Only god know what was actually brewing inside of her when she felt that close to you.

Same here but some how, I understood what she meant.  Remember that what they see as love is much different than what a healthy adult sees as love. Your affection towards her probably felt safe and that is a scary feeling, even for some nons.

There's always a reason for them. If not, they'll create a reason in their heads. So I hear.  It is a defense mechanism.

Who cares if you did. Its how you felt at the time.  Some may not agree, but I always go with my feelings.  If I wanted to be with her, I did it.  I'm not sure if it was too prematurely or if I even care that it was. 

Had to comment again.

I totally get wondering this. I still have no idea what "reason" my had to end things. I think the truth is that she ended things because I was trying to take care of myself and wasn't giving her excessive attention and "admiration" she somehow felt entitled to. But I know this because of where I stand. For her, I think she has no idea why she ended things. In her last discard of me I asked her why and several different questions, the only answer I got to every single one was, "I don't know". So I still have no idea why things "ended" from her point of view. The more I tried to understand the more she put lies on me and acted like some victim. Until she was telling me that I was controlling, abusive, mentally unstable, etc. I was so desperate to even understand what was going on, that I started to believe her. I think the very basic truth is that she saw how unhappy I was and that I would be over the relationship in a couple of months, so she tried to turn everything to make me feel wrong and bad about myself for being miserable and angry in the relationship--because it was all a reflection upon her that she couldn't handle.

I think we all look for a "valid" reason that things ended, but the hardest part is that we have to realize that this stuff happened to us because these people couldn't face themselves. There isn't always a "I was tired of this or that". From my experience my ex was like a toddler demanding attention, and would act out. The more she hurt me, the more she couldn't face me, so she cut and ran. Basically I was the one so hurt and wronged in the relationship, but SHE couldn't handle that. Somehow the more these people victimize you, the more they become a victim. It's maddening, because the more you fight for your own rights, the more you suffer. The more you try to stand up for yourself, the more you lose.

 HoneyB33, that all sounds quite possible. I like the way you think.

Welcome, jwhite! 

Yikes, running into your ex like that sounds intensely painful. How are you doing?

Most of us are very familiar with being given the silent treatment for no apparent reason. People with BPD tend toward knee-jerk reactions to whatever their emotion is in that moment. And their emotions can change dramatically, again sometimes for no apparent reason. Sometimes she probably gives the same reason for the breakup, and sometimes she might think something completely different.

What would it mean to you to know why she broke up with you? Are you hoping that you could change it or talk her out of it, so she'd come back?

I'm a naturally logical thinker so I understand the temptation... .if she says she's doing A because of B, and I can just prove that B is wrong, then she'll have to stop doing A. Unfortunately people with BPD are much more controlled by their unstable emotions, rather than logic.

I think that pwBPD leave, quite simply, because something their partner does makes them feel that the relationship is unstable or makes them feel emotionally unsafe.  This may or may not be warranted.  It may or may not be something particular that they can explain to you.

As for there being a "legitimate" reason for a breakup, reasons like this are frequently not seen as "legitimate" by both parties.  For example, the last guy I stopped seeing couldn't curtail his swearing and crude humor in front of my family.  I was embarrassed by his socially tone-deaf behavior.  He didn't see a problem with anything he did and said that he wouldn't change.  Obviously he didn't think my reason was "legitimate."  However, I'm an only child and I rely on the generosity of my cousins to be included in family activities.  If I marry someone they think is a jerk, I jeopardize my ability to spend holidays with family in the future.  "Legitimate" is in the eye of the beholder.

I think that pwBPD need a lot more attention and dedication in a relationship than most partners are willing to offer.  We all offered our partners what we thought was reasonable or appropriate, but it wasn't enough for them.  As independent adults, they have the right to terminate a relationship that is not meeting those needs.  Sorry folks, but you don't get to determine if your efforts were enough for someone else.  You may conclude that they are being unreasonable, but if you didn't meet their needs, they don't have some kind of obligation to stick with you either.  If you are a very independent person with many interests and commitments, and a relationship ends up being more of a side dish in your life, it's likely that the pwBPD didn't feel safe with you.  You didn't seem attached enough.  This isn't a matter of "fault" but of incompatibility -- someone who wants to be independent is incompatible with someone who is a more dependent partner.  No one is to blame for this.  It just doesn't work.

Your feelings for the other person are not always the point.  If those feelings are not expressed in a way that is meaningful to the other person, they aren't going to help the relationship.

In my experience, my ex had no real reason to end things and especially no reason to do so in the callous and destructive manner that she did but I think the key work here is REAL.

It doesn't seem real because there is no compassion or empathy behind it yet if I dig deeper, I know exactly why she did it. Basically, I was no longer a viable utility for her, we also were out of the 'honeymoon' phase and she got bored. I moved out far out of my way to live somewhere right next to her new job because I wanted to be supportive and and help her embark on her new career. About a month in, she got another job somewhere else (she is never able to commit to anything) and that is when the discard happened - because now she wanted to live closer to that job and not live up to the obligations of the lease that she co-signed with me. She had the audacity in an email after abandoning me here to say that she was "bored living out there", when I am the one who picked up my life and moved to a random area because it benefited her.

She also clearly does not have the emotional maturity to be in a true long term relationship. There were so many red flags that I heard in the beginning and disregarded about this but basically she has a left a trail of destruction in her wake as she jumps from relationship to relationship about after a year in when the honeymoon phase ends and real commitment and compromise starts. She truly lives her life as if it's a movie, a relationship must have nonstop excitement and over the top romance for her to stay interested in it, as soon as this ends and the real bonding phase of the relationship starts, she just bolts and looks for the next exciting thing.

I don't know if I answered your question here or if I'm just ranting. Basically, I think that there are reasons for these discards but they are so coldhearted and immature that even the BPD person realizes this so to cover up for it, they paint you to black and act as if the relationship ended because of how much of a monster you are.

With all due respect, and I appreciate your response, while I cannot of course speak on other people's experiences, that was surely not mine. I would skip work to take care of her, run to her apartment at 4 AM at the drop of a hat because she felt "unsafe" - I gave up my entire life for her and didn't mind doing so. I wouldn't take back a second of it, even today. All she ever spoke about was how she never felt so cared for in her entire life by anyone else. My friends and family all scream at me for being too selfless of a lover, and I guess they are correct. It's still not something about myself that I would change.

The only thing I could not handle was her going off grid for a week at a time - it was unfair to pull me so close to only throw me away in times like those. Yes, she would always come back, and ten times harder, but imagine my concern in the interim. Perhaps she needed someone who could "handle" that - but I would argue someone who is completely okay and not worried with you leaving them by the week for no apparent rhyme or reason - especially given her personal problems and past - doesn't love you at all.

My description is more of a reflection of what happens with abandonment fears.  There are also engulfment fears.  pwBPD leave because of a variety of fears.  I did mention that it was rare that anyone could meet the safety needs of a pwBPD.  My ex told me at one point that he'd trust me with his life.  Now he threatens me with restraining orders and says I'm coming after him.  Even if you appear to be "safe" at the beginning, something, perhaps an irrational fear, will undermine it with them.  That's why you can't win.  Whether the fear is rational or real is in the eye of the beholder.

I am doing quite better now, thank you, although my OCD doesn't allow me to easily accept a situation with no closure. I do hear though that it gets better with time  

I hear you on the fluctuations in emotions and moods - she would often love her friends then hate them, be living with me, then disappear for a week. None of these changes in emotion seemed to have any "real" weight or reason - just consistently in flux.

Of course I still love her, so having a reason would quell my mind, but unless she went back into intensive therapy, I'm not quite sure I could go through this again. Quite ironically, I love her way too much for that  

Ah, I understand. Thanks for clearing that up.

Fear of engulfment in this case could be very real - she is incredibly codependent in relationships (not just ours) and ended up overdosing after our first breakup (which she initiated). I always wondered if that set her off even more to avoid me altogether in order not to lose me again.

So many possibilities, and you are correct - you simply cannot win.

All of this mentioned rings very, very true to me. I've often found that others with BPD have a difficult time telling the truth about why the went NC or abandoned their partners because the reason itself isn't steeped in reality. How could you tell your partner that you left them because you were afraid they would leave, without them putting up a fight and so on?

"The more she hurt me, the more she couldn't face me, so she cut and ran. Basically I was the one so hurt and wronged in the relationship, but SHE couldn't handle that."
This as well. I think complexes of guilt run deep in some cases and it is a lot easier to run and avoid than they are to face.

I think your second point is a lot more accurate.  Why they leave has very little to do with compatibility and almost totally to do with fear.  In fact, the compatibility may be totally awesome and that would likely end up being a liability for the r/s.  

It is this point that many of us are so confused and even stuck about.  How could it have ended when xyz was so good. Well that is the point about BPD - intimacy is the problem!  It is like trying to take a shower without getting wet - good luck.

And part of the reason that we experience being idealized is because they believe that if only they can try harder by doing more, better, best etc. . . than a different outcome will ensue - they have no clue that it is actually THEIR actions that end the r/s.  

As another poster wrote; I would hardly say that they are making a choice - it is more like they are blindly replaying the same skipping notes on the record and hoping if they start from somewhere else on the vinyl that it won't skip at the same place again.

Pure insanity and we must learn that this - and not normal r/s dynamics - are what we are trying to understand.  

"I left because I had no choice. It was your fault. It's always your fault. I did nothing wrong, I am a victim poor me."

This is what they "know."

Based on what my ex told me about previous relationships, and based on her actions towards me, I would say that she always had a rationale for ending a relationship. Sometimes those rationales would appear tenuous at best to a sane person, but they served the dual purpose of allowing her to walk away guilt free and play the victim card to boot. 

The real reason, IMO, was always emotional overload. Getting rid of the boyfriend would 'lighten the load' and make her feel better. 2 months after splitting from me she had a year off work on stress as she continued to drown after I was out of the picture.

I temporarily distracted her from herself. When that 'magical effect' started to wear off I had to go. Simple as that.


Fanny

Hi
I ended us, however, he ended us. Dysregulated to a horrifying degree, even my breathing was a source of irritation and God forbid that I continued to make sure his life was warm loving and comfortable.
Deep inside he loves me, of that there is no doubt. And there lies the problem. The more he felt love for me the more afraid and angry he became. Classic. But he doesn't know this, can't articulate or contemplate any of this. It's his belief he ended it because I am to put several of his accusations into two "a nutter".
So in my case, no, he doesn't know, and would laugh his socks off if I tried explaining that one to him. It would just prove to him that I am indeed " a nutter"
Hi FannyB,
Hope you are well.

I think you've hit the nail on the head with emotional overload.  It's overload of good feelings, fear of losing the good feelings, fear of doing things wrong that push the partner away, fear of the partner finding something better . . . and on and on.  I suspect that pwBPD are extra-sensitive to their feelings and the feelings of others, so every little hiccup gets their full attention.

I raise the issue of compatibility because some people are better at assuaging these fears than others.  Many people on this site spend a lot of time talking about how they were the "perfect" partner to their pwBPD.  Clearly not, or you'd still be together.  (This is not to say that the needs of a pwBPD are reasonable or realistic -- almost no one in the world could meet them.)  Ultimately, you have to view it as incompatibility, whether caused by the BPD or not, or you will never move on.  Saying to yourself that this person just needs to see the light and see what a perfect partner you were is an exercise in futility.  You CAN'T be the perfect partner for a pwBPD.  Period.

My ex had major paranoia issues, and that's what broke us up.  Normal conflict immediately led him to conclude that I was leaving him, turning on him, picking a fight with him, etc.  He turned off his phone in the middle of a fight and I called him some 20-30 times in anger that he could just turn me off like that.  He concluded that I am a mentally deranged psycho stalker (he calls me that to friends) and broke up with me.  I was never "allowed" to lose my temper, behave out of anger, get frustrated, be disappointed with him, or ask him pointed questions about his behavior (regardless of how disrespectful it was).  All of those triggered his paranoia.

He was such a volatile person that it was inevitable I would trip over one of his fears.  We're incompatible because I can't be that perfect 24/7, that I always tiptoe around all of his fears.  Even toward the end of the relationship, I began to feel on edge all the time, knowing that inevitably I would trigger his paranoia.  The "perfect" partner for him is someone who never does.  I am not that person.  I say this to let myself be free, not to let him off the hook.

Do I hope that he will one day realize that I was a great girlfriend and miss me?  Sure, out of pride.  But we'd still be incompatible.

Hi Sadly (apologies for the threadjack!)

I'm fine and doing well - it does get better but for me it took being as long out of the relationship as I was in it to truly detach.

Can't PM you at the moment as I don't have that facility. Am following your story though and hoping you find the strength to break free from him. 

Fanny

Here's my theory: pwBPD (or strong BPD traits) make great boyfriends/girlfriends (for a while), but they make terrible partners. The ability to be in an adult relationship is an adult skill, and pwBPD lack a solid understanding of themselves as adults (for any number of reasons - family of origin issues, abuse/abandonment, historical lack of accountability for their actions, etc.).

I'm sure that most of us dated in our teens and had certain relationships end for ridiculous reasons (someone was prettier, or one of their friends didn't like you, or they wanted to social climb, etc.) - it's very similar with a pwBPD. They feel everything strongly, so when they attach to someone it is *super* intense, but they lack the adult ability to "finish what they start" - they get into relationships not knowing how to do relationships. Adult relationships require accountability and commitment and paying it forward and compromise and sacrifice and give/take. They just don't have the skills to do those things.

So they do the equivalent of calling in sick to work when they're hungover - they just make up a vaguely acceptable reason to stay home, and they hope that nobody follows up. But of course we do follow up (because that's what adults do in relationships), and then they have to compound their lie with additional supporting lies that don't hold up under scrutiny until it gets so bad that it becomes your fault for mentioning it in the first place.

And maybe they'll eventually apologize, but the apology will feel hollow because they don't really mean it (or they don't understand why they did what they did in the first place, so it's a perfunctory apology), and maybe then they'll recycle you and try to sweep it all under the rug ... .until they next time they realize that they don't know how to do what you need/want them to do, and the cycle repeats.

Also apologies for threadjack, thanks Fanny, hope all continues well for you   X

Hi Jw89

It's difficult to comprehend isn't it? I know a lot now about BPD and a lot about my ex. I tried to put myself in his head and got out pretty quickly I can tell you, awful lonely sad place to be, full of white noise.
I really believe he doesn't know, cannot answer the question why, not just about ending things but everything. How awful that must be for anyone. To hurt people over and over, to leave a wake of destruction and not know why but it can't possibly be their fault. The brain is an amazing thing, to be able to genuinely shut down reality to shield you from pain and yet invariably cause so much more.

Sadly x

I would say most do not know.

My ex flat out told me "I don't have the answers for you." when i asked for a closure on our 5 year relationship, which she broke it off through text.
And she did seem genuinely confused, but not phased, by her sudden "switch". She described it as a "switch went off" as in, her outlook on me, and everything.
I suppose that is "painting black"

so yeah... .i do think its possible many of them really don't understand what is happening, and their lack of real remorse with it leads to them not really looking into why they may be behaving so strangely.
I guess its easier for them to think they just lost feelings rather than they have BPD.

Hi Indie
I think your last paragraph is so true. Especially the show no remorse. It's all so bloody weird.
For instance. We split, 6 days NC I get vile hurtful cruel texts, it rocks my world and knocks me flat. Next day one one text. Apologies for last night! Today another text, " do you want to come watch some racing on TV and have a drink but only if you have a happy face. WHAT. It's not even as if he can't remember, it's all written down in texts. No remorse, if you hurt its your own fault basically. Deal with it.
It's all so bloody hard mate. Xx

Why they end things or why they say they end things?  I don't even know if they can keep it straight in their head.  The last thing that my exBPD kicked me out over was because I was a theif and stealing from him.  I increased our internet speed by $20 dollars/month and offered to pay entire cable bill moving forward .  Apparently "IT WAS HIS CONTRACT" and I had no right to do that.  Apparently living with him and being his fiance, I was not authorized to make purchases of $20 per month.  Gosh I bet he is glad he is rid of me, I'm such a pathetic and worthless person.  So stupid but even in that scenario as simple as it was, I questioned myself and had to play it back in my head.  Um he asked me to look into it for him and gave me the password like a month before.  But according to him, he never did that and I "hacked" into the account.  I will never forget the look in his face, like I just boiled his pet rabbit.  So intense and so infuriated and so disgusted with me.

Why I think he ended it?  In his mind, he knew the day was coming that I was going to figure him out and leave.  Abandon him. 

What a life to live... .Now my days are filled with hmmm... .what do we want for dinner ? where should we go camping this weekend?  look what the dog just did! and lots of laughter

Bunny

Sadly,

Part of the BPD disorder is that once the "emotion" is over, it's like it never happened to them.  It is super bizarre and very hard for the partner to deal with.  You should visit the board for partners trying to make it work.  They outline the steps to follow and how not to take it personal.  It's a lot of work and I'm not interested in that at all but it does help to see how their thought process work.  It's like having a 3 year old for life!

Bunny

It's weird, very weird. But look at what bunny just said. She said that when the emotion is over, it is like it never happened to them. Which seems to be very accurate.  It is like they forget we even exist, and don't speak to us. Then when they do, they expect us to act ok or they act like nothing odd is happening.

When my ex got her replacement, she was asking me why i was "acting weird to her" as if she didn't know... .And she seemed like she really was confused, as to why i'd be hurt over her dating even though she KNEW I loved her still. And the DAYS BEFORE they began to date, she had told me there might be a possibility of us in the future but couldn't be right now cause she "still had her guard up against me".

Your ex sounds like a back and forth nightmare. But they do tend to say things then if you ask them to repeat what they just said, they literally can't even remember what they said a minute before! Because they speak and do things THAT impulsively!

This whole thread is like more healing balm to rub on these burns. Thanks to everyone's for all your insightful post. I often have tried to explain that my ex didn't have any real reason to break up with me. People generally saw this as not being able to accept rejection, which is very much NOT the point. This thread is very much reaffirming what I have been trying to explain to myself and others.

Also, all of you guys a brilliant. Seriously. High five to all of you for literally walking through insanity and excelling at reasoning where there literally was almost none.

I think you are right on, MapleBob.  

There are basically three reasons these relationships end:

1)  You trigger their abandonment fears so they must abandon you first.
2)  You trigger their engulfment fears so they bail to save their sense of self.
3)  What MapleBob so accurately outlined above -- they lose interest in you for the same reasons that a child loses interest in a toy.

Imagine a child who begs you for a dog . . . for weeks, months . . . and when they finally get it, they realize that the dog poops, and the poop must be cleaned up.  The child suddenly doesn't want the dog anymore.

Being in an adult relationship requires a person to handle unpleasant feelings and not bail on a commitment.  For example, my job requires me to deal with stress, people who strongly dislike me (colleagues and other stakeholders), people who are professionally competitive with me and undermine my goals, and people who evaluate me by standards I can never hope to meet.  None of these is fun, and if I were childish, I'd quit.  But as an adult, I have to look at the big picture of my income and my long-term goals and make a better decision.  The same thing goes for a relationship.  You have to deal with the other person being sick, impatient, struggling with his or her personal happiness, having a bad day, dealing with his or her own mental health issues, etc.  Most adults can tolerate a certain degree of this because they realize that the relationship has a positive value for them overall. But a pwBPD bails at the first sign that something is wrong.  They can't look past their own discomfort to understand why you might be struggling or need support during that struggle -- hence the infamous lack of empathy.  They can't see the long-term value of the relationship past a short-term challenge.

That was completely my experience with my ex.  Everything had to be sunshine and rainbows all the time, or he'd bail.  The idea of being there for me when it was not convenient for him, or helping me through my personal difficulties, absolutely repelled him.  It would be perfectly accurate to say that he was a fun boyfriend but a poor partner.

Hi jwhite89,


By my understanding of this disorder (which you can take with a grain of salt... .as I am not a professional), feelings of intimacy can be a big trigger for people with BPD (pwBPD).  I wonder if it was the intimate nature of your relationship which made things difficult for her, more than anything else.  I know this is counter-intuitive, because for the non, intimacy and closeness helps us feel more connected to our loved ones; it should strengthen our attachments.  But I think due to the nature of their disorder, for pwBPD feelings of intimacy lead to much scarier ones on which they then act out.  Very often, in my experience and also in the stories here in these forums, I've observed that it's after significant moments of intimacy and familiarity (i.e., family) that pwBPD act out.  And in my estimation, they act out on their *imagined* fear of abandonment.


You didn't understand what her feelings of love was doing to her because her experience with these developing feelings was very different from your experience.  I was blind to how my exBPDgf was experiencing it because I was in love and I just assumed she felt the same way as I did.


It was not for "no" reason.  But she couldn't explain why because I think she could barely face the truth behind why she was doing it.  I think for pwBPD, to accept that feeling "loved" was also making you feel crazy would indicate clearly that something is wrong with you.  But pwBPD have a very low tolerance of accepting that something is wrong with them; or when they do accept them -- they can discard/disconnect from these thoughts as a defense mechanism.  This is also why some pwBPD through projection often accuse us of wronging them, or of being disordered.


As I see it, pwBPD *want* to form intimate/familial attachments.  In a sense their personality development has stalled because they have not yet formed attachments in the way nons have.  But as with every major attachment in their lives (up to this point) every time they get too close, their disorder kicks in and they run away to avoid facing the pain.  No doubt, her mother's passing, made it even more difficult for her to deal with these disordered feelings.


My interpretation of your interaction is that she doesn't quite understand her own dynamic yet.  On the one hand, when she is with you, she can see that you are sincere, that you bear no ill towards her.  But once you are *away* she is left with her disordered fear that you mean to abandon her.  And so she does her best to *avoid* this *imagined* abandonment but abandoning you first.  And this is why between the times that you interact, she treats you as if you do not exist.


My understanding is that they can sometime rationalize their inexplicable behaviors.  Even to the degree that they re-imagine their history.  Sometimes they will confront you with their distortion.  Sometimes they will discard it, if only for the moment.  Because it all hinges on how they are feeling at the time.  For their intimate relationships, their feelings dictates their reality.

Best wishes,

Schwing

Schwing
Really great post - everything you wrote!  And you summed it up perfectly, their emotions dictate everything.

That comment takes me back to one of the many fights she and I had about absolutely nothing except her contrived fantasies about something I never said.  When I wrestled her into factual submission her response was "my feelings are real".  It was if she was saying, never mind the reality of the situation, my feelings are more relevant to my responses than reality.

There is no way anyone without (and perhaps even with) the disorder could ever calibrate their own internal worlds to the world of BPD.

All so sad and I thank you again for your insightful reply.

JRB

I experienced this many times with my ex, too. She actually said, "Well, even though that didn't really happen, I felt that it did, so now you have to deal with it." Like I was supposed to help her cut, paste, deny, warp, change reality to fit her shifting moods. The less I did of that, the more she'd push and pull, disappear, whatever. I know she was rewriting her past while with me, as her stories kept changing, and am 99.9% sure she's also been doing it in regards to the time she spent with me. Because she most likely isn't really facing the reality of her feelings. Or why she ended it with me.

Hey, that's MY ex's line!  lol

Would this explain why my exgf would possibly think or believe I rapped her just 2 months before we were engaged or why she repeatedly blamed me for stalking her when I never did at all? Accused of slashing her tires, stealing her internet and sleeping with other women, including her sister?

And when trying to defend myself nothing I did or said was accepted by her, she just choose to believe her version no matter what the factual evidence proved.

I would present her with evidence or eye witnesses and still she refused to listen to me. The more adiment I tried to defend myself the more she believed I was overreacting and proving my guilt. Very heartbreaking to be accused of horrible things while being innocent.

My gosh I never realized just how sick she is, and how I would most often be blamed and accept that everything was my fault.

The most disturbing fact in all this discovery is that these facts will diminish in hours or days and I will spin in confusion once more.

I really need to write a simple concise list of hard facts that I can trust and believe. Maybe I would stop searching for the magic bullet, the holy grail that would prove her behaviour is in no way related to anything I've done and that it does not make me a flawed person because I failed to love her enough.

Great post and great follow up responses, really explains things in clear simple logic.

I can relate to this a lot. It felt like this is exactly what my ex wanted me to do, esp when she kept trying to discard me. She wanted me to come back around and tell her whatever she wanted to hear, and if I wouldn't? Then she'd just drop me again. It's like she was always waiting for me to come around and lie to her and distort reality to make her feel better--and I wouldn't. I always tried to work things out, but she only wanted me to lie to her and punish me for not doing so.

JerryRG I really feel for you in what you're going through, esp in those horrific accusations. I remember one time after my ex and I slept together, she pulled out this whole "I didn't want to", and it made me feel so foul. I felt lie I had done something so wrong, like I had used her or something. It's horrible. But of course, how would I be at fault for that? She never said anything, and from what I could read of her, there wasn't any sign of a "no". It's an outrageous thing to do to someone. I'm so sorry for what you are going through, I can really relate to it. You keep reading all of these things, but you still keep questioning yourself and tracing your steps, back into these already very faded memories, horrified at the "what if".

It's a very different thing to have someone yell at you, "You're an ass" than to have someone tell you an accusation in form of that, saying you hurt them in the most horrific way you could possibly imagine. I really get being stuck in that circle, questioning over and over if you've done something so awful. I've gotten stuck in that a lot. A lot of it is that you have to really decide if it's true or not. You know it's not true? Just like I've had to come to a place of really knowing that I am not an abuser, even if I yelled at my ex a couple of times. That conflict really gets you stuck, and you have to decide. You gotta make a choice. When you have a clear moment, right out what is true and why. And when you get in those circular moments, DECIDE what is true and focus on it.

I'm still struggling with things like that. I still get triggered back into things. But learning about BPD is really helping with that. In those moments, I have decide on what I knew before I fell into this pit, before I fell into worrying if I had done something wrong. That questioning, when it gets in, really can make you sick (I know). You gotta decide. We both do. Every day.

My ex decided that it was because I didn't really love her and treated her like a project. As in, she feels that I don't see her for who she is, except as someone who's psychotic and who has issues.

There are no words for this level of twisted thinking.

It's called emotional reasoning. As we all know it stems from facts=feelings. From what I've read about it, it drives therapists and psychologists up the wall because no matter what logic, practices and theory they demonstrate to their patients (the NPD/BPD's) their emotions are more valid.

I see this as being THE prime reason our relationships all eventually break down.

"Yes I know you want a big house and lots of animals and a new car and lots of land BUT we will have to work hard and save hard to get it"

"No I know we both want these things, I'm not telling you that you are wrong, I'm just telling you all this takes money and a bit of time"

"I'm not insulting you or your intelligence, Look I'll show you on a piece of paper, this is what we both earn... ."

"please don't cry, I'm not trying to call you stupid, I'm just saying we can't do all this and go on holidays every three months"

Logic doesn't work. Logic/lateral thinking is very a important part of maintaining an adult relationship (particularly if you actually want to set goals)  

so is communication and lack thereof, another primary reason these relationships broke down.

how would we react to someone "wrestling us into factual submission"? thats an entrenched position from which to communicate, which insists on our point of view. most people would respond with defensiveness, or aggressiveness, non responsiveness, or otherwise hunkering down.

im not pretending its an easy task to communicate with someone with cognitive distortions, amplified and shifting needs, high emotional state, etc. fortunately for all of us, we dont have to do that anymore. i am saying that "my feelings are real" is a true statement, for all of us, that deserves respect and acknowledgment. "yeah but they arent reality" or really any "yeah, but" statement is an invalidating response. i assure you i heard the same expression and responded the same way.

in retrospect, we could have saved ourselves a lot of stress (short of exiting the relationship) by practicing validation, good boundaries, and especially not JADEing. even better, we can use these skills in all of our future relationships of all kinds. they work with people that dont experience cognitive distortions too  *)

learn more here:
Don't "JADE" (justify, argue, defend, explain) (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=139972.0)
Communication Skills - Validation (https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-validation)
Validation skill - stop invalidating others (https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating)

Communication (or lack thereof) was definitely a huge issue for me in terms of why I think my ex BPD ended things.

Even though she had no problem writing me an incredibly detailed email about how much of a terrible person I am after she had discarded me, she never once brought up any of these issues like a normal adult would in a healthy relationship. Stupid & petty things such as sarcastic comments made in passing as a joke were cataloged and used to portray me as a monster, whereas if she would have just asked me about what I said/did at the time, we could have had a rational discussion about what I really meant but that never happened.

There were so many times where she would bring up topics that I have strong opinions on out of nowhere. She would egg me on until I said something that maybe didn't fall 100% in line with her viewpoint then change the subject, little did I know that she was keeping track of all of this to be able to use it against me later without giving me a chance to defend myself.

THIS. This is exactly the crap my ex pulled with me. All of a sudden after the discard, when I'm frantically trying to ask or understand, "What is wrong?" THEN there was this whole onslaught of accusations. I was "overpowering", "controlling", "mentally unstable", "selfish", etc. All of them accompanied with all these random memories. She told me of how she was never "allowed" to communicate for herself because of the one time she tried to put this accusation on me (about 4 months in) and I fought back. The accusation by the way was when we were playing cards with her brothers, and I said, "No, you're explaining it wrong." On the drive home she sulked and tried to tell me that she was embarrassed because of "how I let someone speak to me like that." She had already set me up as this "overbearing abuser" and her some victim. She was embarrassed of how she let someone speak to her? And all the implications applied with that. At the time, I didn't realize what was going on, but I just snapped at her. I was SO angry, but didn't know why at the time. Now I do--you were setting a stage in front of your family of me abusing you! Over a card game! So anyways, this incident is the entire reason she had a year later for her lack of communication. She said she had "tried" before, but of course I was just SO "overbearing" in standing up for myself, that it was my fault she hadn't communicated this before.

It left me wondering if she had been so unhappy, and how had I not seen it. She even told me of a time we slept together and she didn't want to. I felt awful! How could I?... .All of this AFTER everything. And the really annoying part is that I actually was pretty good at reading her mind. But of course, she hated me for that because then I could actually call her on her BS. The harder I worked to understand or "fix" things, the more it became my fault. It was such a trap. Hindsight is 20/20.

Once Removed, I probably shouldn't even say this, but I find your comments extremely counter productive. If it was just someone here on the forum, I wouldn't say anything, but as a site monitor, I think it's different to say something. I don't think any of us that are trying to the "detaching from wounds" thread need to hear about how to communicate with a BPD, or how their feelings are "valid". These people have been like a gunshot to the chest, and their illness has tore apart our lives. All because of how they "see things" and not at all because of anything we did. Maybe on a bright green day, when I'm way past this, I can look back on my ex and feel pity for her. I do feel pity for her today in ways. But what I need is to focus on myself. And have compassion for ME, not her.

I guess for you, you found a lot of solace in seeing things from their point of view. But I don't think that's helpful here, or needed. I don't give a flying bag of crap about how my ex might see things. They live in a delusional world. They are ill. And the more I tried to "understand" where they were coming from, the more ill it made me. I strongly think your compassion is misguided, and counter productive to the people here trying to heal. It is to me at least.

i hear you HoneyB33. we are all at different stages of healing and detachment.

the message isnt so much about pity or compassion for our exes or people with BPD. its about a balanced understanding of how the relationship broke down - what is productive is to learn, take what we have learned, and use it to go on and build healthy relationships in the future. learning to validate, for example, is a skill that will take you far in relationships of all kinds. its understood we are not practicing these skills with our exes.

I think all of us can look at things and see where we can possibly validate more. But I think you're wrong to say that we didn't validate enough, and that's our "part" in this. This is not a healthy relationship. This is someone expecting you to carry their entire self-esteem for them, lie to them, and basically be treated like trash and expected to celebrate them for it? What kind of "validation" is that? The question here is not where do I need to learn to validate a delusional, abusive, "partner". The question is, "Why the hell was I with this person in the first place?"

respectfully, no one is saying this. validation is not a be all end all, and it would have made my relationship no more satisfying for me. my own part, and the part of most others, is far more loaded and complex. most of us did the wrestling into factual submission referred to (i rather like the wording of that). i have my stories and im probably a pretty egregious example (remember, the belief that if we say it louder we will be heard is one of the ten beliefs that can get us stuck). howd we get to that point?

if i read you correctly, you are describing validating the invalid (things like abuse), which is not the goal or anything i would advise.


good question  |iiii. its a question that takes a lot of digging to find the answer(s) to.

I think this is a place we need to be to stay focused on ourselves otherwise we stay in the "blaming ourself" phase.  Which most of us were in for too long, time to get out.

Once Removed:  I understand what you are saying but I'd like to also point out that maybe the way we react "triggers" BPD but not everyone.  I have been the same person all my relationships, even the ones that ended and this is the only relationship where he tore me down to a useless piece of crap.  So I think that is where Honey is coming from.  Yes we understand how BPD thought process is different but we don't want to take the blame for how they CHOOSE to react to their emotions by feeling like we should "validate" them.  Whether we said something that would put the average person on defense or not... .there is an appropriate and inappropriate way to respond. BPD tend to respond inappropriately... .I think some of us just need to be reminded of thought otherwise we start internalizing again and that is counter productive to our healing.

Alright, let's split the difference here: I don't think there's actually a disagreement going on in this thread at all. Here's why:

Sure, we can joke and jab all we want about just why someone was feeling the way they were feeling at a given moment... .but, ultimately, they were feeling it. Those feelings are real. So it's possible (and probably preferable) to validate that, however outlandish the logic behind it might seem. A lot of us have/had difficulty with that, and it probably would have helped our relationships to a certain extent.

However, once those feelings are being presented as logical justification for abusive or abandoning behaviors, that is a real problem. And that's exactly what many of us here experienced with our pwBPD.

They might be "mentally ill" but make no mistake they FULLY UNDERSTAND the actions they take. They do not have an illness that prevents them from knowing right from wrong. I am not going to understand why they do what they do from their perspective. An abuser is an abuser. What I think we need to do stop justifying abusers behaviors that's crazy. All we need to focus on is WHY we stayed. WHY did we counter abuse?

I have been away so delayed response to this post.  

I agree with HoneyB33; I think this comment is “counter productive” and I would add that it is also a bit  inaccurate.  It assumes that we should be partially culpable for trying to counter the accusation that we are off track based on the premise that feelings are facts;  feelings are valid, not factual!  We were frequently spot on track with the facts but not the feelings.

Wrestling someone into factual submission is not counterproductive in itself.  Call it by whatever you want; it can be very healthy to try and walk with someone step-by-step through the facts as they happened so that both of you can see the reality of a given situation and why each of you responded the way you did.  I disagree that; “most people would respond with defensiveness, or aggressiveness, non responsiveness, or otherwise hunkering down”.  I have done this in many healthy relationships; it typically works well for each person involved that is interested in understanding what went wrong.  

“that is interested in understanding what went wrong”.  <-- THIS is where we get off track in the communications.  pwBPD are not as much interested in understanding what went wrong as they are interested in soothing their chaotic feelings and transferring them on to the people who are closest to them; aka manipulation.  I can agree with what you say from the point of view; if you are an insecure person with a split personality, this form of communication style may likely feel intimidating or degrading.  But I disagree that this is any negative reflection on us whatsoever; unless you know the person is unable to handle the facts and has a serious mental health issue, in which case you are truly being malevolent.  Most of us here had no clue of any of this and certainly have no responsibility in assuming that this was the case.

IMO, there is a fine line between understanding what went wrong in our relationships and understanding what is legitimately our responsibility.  Trying to communicate in an adult fashion with someone that pretends they understand, but actually does not, is not a non’s responsibility nor are they culpable.  I have successfully used this communication technique with others and continue to successfully do so with healthy people.  pwBPD are not healthy and we should not benchmark the expediency of our communication techniques based on these relationships.

yes, no easy task, and a very delicate discussion. i know that in my case, i was very prone to the self blame that bunny4523 mentioned. the very idea that i had any room for improvement (either in regard to the relationship or in general), any at all, was highly triggering, and represented to me the idea that i had screwed up the entire relationship, that it was all my fault, that i had lost my soul mate, and i would desperately want to go back in time. my comfort at the time was telling myself the opposite: there was nothing i could have done, it was all her, i should thank my lucky stars to be out (i do to this day). i begged those close to me to remind of that. daily.

as well as anyone, i understand that this takes a lot of time and distance. a member once stated that arriving here and being asked to examine your role is akin to losing a child and being asked to find your role in that. i try never to lose sight of that sentiment. it was not for a couple of years after i felt i had recovered from the relationship that i could see my own emotional immaturity and where i had room for improvement. it was no longer about my ex. i did the best i could with what i had at the time. we all did. these were extreme circumstances. sometimes the most extreme circumstances, and how we got there, are the most revealing. what they reveal is not always pretty or comfortable. it is important to reflect, not react.

these are repeating themes being expressed:

1. they are mentally ill - not only is there no point in understanding their perspective, it is counterproductive.
2. the place that we got off track in communication is that our exes arent/werent interested in understanding what went wrong.
3. our exes are unhealthy - we should not benchmark the expediency of our communication techniques based on these relationships (Bowen - Family Systems Theory would beg to differ here).
4. we should only consider why this happened to us

fair enough. anyone figured it out yet?

Hi all. Ive been off here for a while but just wanted to add my opinion on this topic. I wouldnt say im an expert on BPD but there are a few conclusions that I have come to that make sense to me.

First our pwBPD probably did love us. In the idolisation phase our potential to them is limitless. We are what they have been looking for and they dont see our flaws. After a while they start to see our cracks and we are not the person they believed we were. This to me seems to be the ultimate reason why a BPD relationship fails in the majority of cases. This is why they turn on us because in their eyes we have conned them. I myself was guilty of this to some degree. Our relationship was a figment of both of our imaginations.

As once removed has stated we are all at different stages in our healing. It has been over two years for me and I am happy with my life. Yes I still do think about my ex but I have a son with her so see her every week. I dont want her back and certainly dont miss her. For me understanding her behaviour has helped but I have always been some one who needs answers. I have a friend whos ex was possibly BPD and he wasnt interested all he needed was the knowledge that in his words she was "bat ___ crazy". So why my ex behaved why she did for me boils down to emotional imaturity, very low self esteem and survival. We are all different and peoples behaviour is a matter of perspective. To my ex I was probably lying and cheating as for her it was the norm. Not doing those things probably seems to her as incomprehensible as her behaviour was to me. Knowing this has helped me let go as it proves how completely incompatible we are.

people ask do they miss us/ regret breaking up. My answer is yes but only when things arent going so well for them.

what was our part in this? This is the most difficult question to answer especially in the early stages. It is also the most enlightening. I realise that there was a need almost desperation for me to be in a relationship. I overlooked red flags and let myself be changed slowly but surely into someone else. A shadow of my former self. Realising this has made me come to terms with my issues. Its not something to start on day one but further down the line when the initial pain has subsided. Its not for everyone but as I have had two BPD relationships it has let me understand why I keep making the same mistakes. Its not for everyone though.

Once removed: 
I’m not following you on the repeating themes… here is my take/understanding for my situation. 

I acknowledge there is always room for improvement.  I have misconceptions, I have blinders on sometimes, I’m moody and caught off guard and I can see when I could’ve handled a situation better.  It’s not a trigger for me and I don’t feel guilt/blame.  I like the idea of acknowledging and improving for next time.

1)   Examining your role to me is: How did I get here? What did I do that triggered my ex to feel a certain way? (not taking the blame for MAKING him feel that way but just understanding how BPD over react to normal relationship dynamics)  ei: I went to Toys R Us and shopped for an hour.    I can see how that would trigger a BPD now because he believed I didn’t want to be there with him.  I was abandoning him but this is “imagined” abandonment on his part, this is not reality.  I come back home and he goes off on me, ending the relationship. This is where I draw the line at HIS ACTIONS.  I will not take responsibility for how he feels or how he chooses to respond, although I do understand how this triggers him. 
To me this is no different than my teenage son yelling, “you never do anything for me.” I’m not going to buy into this.  I will validate my son by saying I can see you are really hurt and mad right now thinking I don’t care about you.  That hurts me because it is not true and I want you to feel cared for and loved. But then I do say what about yesterday I did this for you and I list the times I have been there for him.  You know what I get in response?  Accountability.  “You know what mom, your right you do a lot of nice things for me and I’m sorry I said that out of anger.  I’m stressed about school or my girlfriend. “  So then of course I say “what is going on with the girlfriend and we talk about what really is bothering him.

2)   We get off track in communications with our BPD partner because the nons are trying to discuss and resolve a misunderstanding that happened.  While pwBPD have an emotion and are making up facts in their head to back up that emotion.

3)   Our exes are unhealthy and it more difficult communicating with them AND we get to choose whether we want to modify our communication methods or not to keep this relationship going. 

4)   I don’t think it’s the ONLY thing we should do. 

“Fair enough, has anyone figured it out yet?”  I’m not sure. :/  The list you provided puts all the blame on the ex and no accountability on ourselves.  Although that’s not the message I got from the thread….

One more thing, I do understand learning techniques to better communicate with others; healthy or not, maybe just because they have strong personalities, teenagers.  I have adopted this and I find them effective daily at work, with strangers and even with family members.  The difference to me is I don’t want to deal with this in an intimate partner.   I want a partner that thinks more like I do and will validate my feelings too.  Where communication will equal enlightment and resolution.  A relationship where we will grow together.  For me to stay with my BPD partner would have stunted my emotional growth, I would not be able to be the best I can be. 

Thanks for your feedback, you got me thinking!  :)
Bunny

 |iiii

Yay!   I'm growing into a big girl! :)

Thank you  :)

That right there is the thing to keep in mind. My lack of understanding this has led to soo many wasted hours talking. While I am trying to resolve to the best of my ability - to try and reach agreement on a few simple facts, to corral a couple of the issues and try to get somewhere with those - all kinds of bizarre "facts" are being introduced and smudged around until I didn't even know what the hell we were talking about .

I have a way of leaping from one thing to the next in my thinking, maybe I failed sometimes to signal how I actually got from A to B to C and so on. I got to the point where I slowed everything down so much, signposted so much, that it was like writing a hellish, impossible to finish, academic paper with hundreds of citations and footnotes, all of which had to be checked for accuracy by a team of researchers who couldn't agree on which sources were reliable and would argue among themselves about it.

What I got for my trouble was in response: "... .language ... .so fragmented that it is difficult to orient ourselves: we are in a system of words where multiple paths of meaning branch from every sentence, not on the level of interpretation but of basic comprehension", Chris Power writing about Beckett in The Guardian a few weeks ago.

*mod*

This topic has reached the post limit.  Thanks to all who participated and please feel free to continue discussion in a new thread.   :)