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I've been reading a few threads on red flags and I started to wonder.  What is the earliest red flag we can spot with these pwBPD?  They obviously all share a very similar template of behavior, sort of like they all go by the same script.

The earliest red flag I could have possibly spotted was my ex's heightened efforts to appear charming.  Like she was selling herself. 

Did your pwBPD do this?

Hey Wize

Great post, I'm embarrassed to say this but my exgf told me during one of our first conversations that I should leave her alone because she will, and I quote "f up my life"

Yes I am just that dumb!

Have fun, keep healing

So she never attempted to charm you or sell herself?

So she never attempted to charm you or sell herself?
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Can you please explain what is meant her by charm or sell herself? There are lots of ways to charm someone. I don't think I noticed that. Please explain.

I think that we display our best sides in the honeymoon phase of a relationship. I  don't think that is synonymous with BPD, maybe sharing too much too quickly?

My ex barely knew me when she invited me to her house when we were chatting back and forth for a couple of weeks. She didn't have boundaries, today that telegraphs a red flag but it doesn't necessarily mean that the person is mentally ill.

Fast forward to today, the push / pull behavior against my boundaries would set off alarm bells.

She fell in love with me the first night we were alone, and wanted to move in with me, get engaged, start a family. Then there was the second night. By day three she was writing letters explaining 100 reasons she loved me.

She said she always loved me, we were soul mates, perfect fit, blah blah blah

The red flag I first remember was when my exBPD told me that he loved me before we ever even kissed. I remember telling him I don't understand that, it's a strong word so soon. He was a good salesman, he explained to me that we have worked together for 7 years so it's actually been a longer time.

Duh, I knew him for 7 years too but didn't love him yet but I guess I didn't think about that.

Had this been a match.com date, I would have ran but I thought I knew him and his reasoning made enough sense to take the edge off of my concern.

Bunny

She fell in love with me the first night we were alone, and wanted to move in with me, get engaged, start a family. Then there was the second night. By day three she was writing letters explaining 100 reasons she loved me.

She said she always loved me, we were soul mates, perfect fit, blah blah blah

Was so cute and I swallowed it right up, my ego grew out of control.

First night that I met her she gave me immensely detailed records of her life & relationship history.

First time she was alone at my apartment she broke down in tears telling me how she had been "raped" in the past and how horrible all of her exes were, definitely not conversations that are normal when you've known someone for a week.

Constantly told me how attractive I was, how she could talk to me in a way that she never could with anyone else.

Told me stories of how multiple times, she had moved out of living with a boyfriend or even fiance with no warning, which is exactly what she ended up doing to me.

Yeah there were a lot of them that I never thought twice about until everything was over and I began to research this disorder. Makes me feel stupid now but I honestly believed every word of what she said at that time.

After our first date (though we had been communicating for several weeks), we were texting each other about how great the date was, and one text he sent me was... ."Just give me a chance. You will see I am not toxic."

I remember reading that text and stopping in my tracks. But... .I thought maybe it was because we had consumed too much wine.  Oh if I would have listened to my gut that day. And then the next, and the next, and the next... .

  red-flag  

Mine never said we were soul mates. I was always looking for that word. She never used it.  She probably new to play it safe.  I don't know that I hated her charming ways.  I just wish she didn't lie about simple things.  But in a way, since I knew it was part of her disorder, I was rearranging my thoughts to look passed the silly lies, but not the cheating.  That, I cannot tolerate.  A woman that does not value her body; Nope! That's one boundary that I will note sacrifice.

I thought charming meant something like impressive.  People say that I am charming.

I seriously wonder why I never listen to people, I was warned a 1000 times by so many people to stay a million miles away from my BPDexgf but I just DID NOT LISTEN!

Kinda scary thinking I'm so stubborn that I was willing to endanger myself that much. She told me she had been raped by 3 guys? Lost count now but really?

Who in their right mind sleeps with a woman with this track record? Total Insanity!

Even if she was never raped, I sure could have been the very first accused and sent to jail or prison.

I'm dangerously naive or stupid or both.

Cannot chalk it up to courage either, after seeing 100s of red flags I marched right into the lions den.

Oh! Then had a child with her!

Just shoot me, lol

I guess I mean a very noticeable effort on her part to rope you in on that first date.  I've been on many dates with many different women and I never once had any of them exude the energy or make such a concerted effort to charm/get me hooked on the first date.

I think a normal first date consists of two people talking peacefully with the understanding that it's ok if there isn't a second date. 

I think a normal first date consists of two people talking peacefully with the understanding that it's ok if there isn't a second date. 
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I can't say I ever dated once.  Should that be the expectation? I would not agree to a first date if I knew there was some subliminal understanding that it might not be a second.  It's usually after a few dates that I decide if this person is cool to hang with or not.  That's how I see things.

Bro, that's the reality; that there might not be a second date.  It's normal and healthy to go into the first date with the expectation that you very well may not click with the other person or you may have little in common, or your personalities don't mix or there's no chemistry.  That's just the way it is.

But I'm like you in that I don't enjoy dating.  I'm much more of the opinion that God will bring the right person into my life.  In the meantime though, I'm gonna mix it up with some ladies... .eventually.

yep the rape one is a killer, and the all past boyfriends are asss

but she was never raped, her friend was and she saw the support her friend got so guess what she believed she was raped.

the story didnt hold up under scrutiny

Man, every day I read at least one thing here that honestly makes me wonder if someone was in a relationship with my ex. Some things are just too scarily similar to the things that happened to me.

I'm a little with  C<||| Mutt on this one Wize. Men and women tend to put their best foot forward early on. So perhaps your question is a matter of degree. If it's too much interest too early then that should arouse normal suspicion of something else going on--quite far away from having BPD. Maybe being needier than average?

Regarding your point on a "template of behaviour", which is a good idea, the other thing you want to keep in mind is that severe BPD traits often don't show up until you're very close to them. By that time you might be in up to your knees.

i know it is what they do to control and manipulate

there are patterns and we have no idea that people that we love can be like that as we view things from our viewpoint not theirs

Good question about charm.  Here's what Gavin de Becker who wrote "The Gift of Fear," a book I became intimately familiar with during my UxBPDbf's stalking, has to say about charm:

"Charm and Niceness:
Charm is another overrated ability.   Note that I call it an ability, not an inherent feature of one's personality. Charm is almost always a directed instrument, which like rapport-building, has a motive. To charm is to compel, to control by allure or attraction.  Think of charm as a verb, not a trait.   If you consciously tell yourself "this person is trying to charm me"  as opposed to "this person is charming," you'll be able to see you around it.  Most often, when you see what's behind charm, it won't be sinister, but other times you'll be glad you looked.

We must learn and then teach our children that niceness does not equal goodness.  Niceness is a decision, a strategy of social interaction, not a character trait.  People seeking to control others almost always present the image of a nice person in the beginning.  Like rapport-building, charm and the deceptive smile, unsolicited niceness almost always has a discoverable motive."

Good question, Wize, and good food for thought!

Mine was very charming and insisted on sitting on the same side of the booth with me on the first date so that we could cuddle.

I knew him as a friend for a few months first, though, and the red flag that I ignored (much to my own detriment) was that he got engaged to a woman he met on Facebook messenger in another region on the country and agreed to marry her after talking to her online for ten days, never having met in person.  He said he knew they were soul mates and it was a "whirlwind romance."

Yes, charming was the exact words the T used after he met my stbxBPDw, this before I knew she was a BPD. He said she was "charming and convincing" while she was painting me blacker and blacker. The T also said she had BPD "traits" but stated she had PTSD because of our young daughters death.

Charming she could be, and how! No wonder it was so easy for her to cheat and attract men, her BPD trait on sex was textbook accurate too.

I have learned that this charm is also referred to as the "BPD mask".

It's hard to pick just one!  On our second date, mine told me he had loved me since 9th grade... .now mind you, we barely spoke in the halls during junior high or high school and after that, we went our separate ways until our 40th class reunion (married other people... .him 3 former wives red-flag) and hadn't even spoken until we connected at the reunion.  He remembered classes we were in together and exactly where I sat (I had no recollection).  He would sit on the floor at my feet in the very early days and gaze at me when I spoke  red-flag.  I also remember him telling me that when he was on his rowing machine, he would say my name out loud with each repetition red-flag.  Also, every time he would see me-whether it was walking in his front door or around the corner of the house he would stop and say "there's those butterflies!" red-flag   I could go on and on... .   I remember thinking "is this charming or creepy?"   I do remember the first time we actually went out he sort of warned me by saying that he had been married 3 times and that he was a "three strikes you're out" guy. red-flag    He also was estranged from his daughters, his father, his uncles, multiple friends and all ex wives... .and had a grandson he had never met.  His explanations centered around how he was victimized by all of them (except for the grandson who was only 3... .he couldn't really explain that one). 

BTW I haven't posted in years.  We split painfully in 2013, got back together late 2014... .things were never the same.  After several mini ruptures, he raged and left for good just this last April.  I remain close to his daughters... .and now that this split is permanent, one of them has shared things about his past that make the hair on the back of my neck stand up.  He is one very not-ok guy.  I still feel mostly compassion for him, but will spend the rest of my life processing this relationship.

I saw the thread title and immediately, with no hesitation, said (out loud): "love bombing" - which seems to be the general consensus here.

I'd throw a vote to "oversharing too early" as well, and demonizing their exes without adequate explanation.

And sure, these are things that nons do too, but with a pwBPD it just feels different. I can't really explain it, but it's like that feeling you get looking down from a high structure like a bridge or skyscraper: the abyss.  lol

my ex didn't have any close or acquaintance friends... .only business associates.  I thought that was really weird.

Same thing here, 30 years old and no long term friends. I found out later about how she would have a "best friend" for a year or so here and there, then there would be some kind of big falling out and they would never speak again. If only I knew then what I knew now and could have realized what this meant... .

My ex told me on our first date that she had to leave in all of her previous relationships because, in every one of them, she realized the man she was with didn't really love her. I suppose that should have been a big  red-flag and also a glimpse into what our future together would have been like.

My ex was engaged. red-flag

Within a couple of months, she had left her fiancé and immediately started asking about me moving in with her.  red-flag

Intense love-bombing and constantly telling me she never wanted to have another day without me in her life. This one I don't think is necessarily a red-flag  -- as others have noted, it's really a question of degree. In that respect, the intensity with which my ex focused her love-bombing on me was off the charts. My ego definitely blinded me to the fact that her love was much more intense than it was deep.

She wanted to know every detail of my past relationships and could dig for answers like I was on cross-examination.  red-flag

She soon became extremely jealous of all my interactions with other women, while she loved to talk about sex with any man who would listen and showed very poor (in my opinion) sense of boundaries with other men. Then she would seem/act surprised when guys expressed sexual interest by, e.g. asking her if she would do a private photo shoot (friend's step-dad) or wanted to get naked together (best friend's husband) ... . red-flag  red-flag

Lots and lots of red flags. As with many other people here, I think what blinded me to so much is that in moments her expressions of love and needing me and never wanting to be unfaithful, etc etc, were all sincere. I absolutely believe that -- she would be gripped with such intense feelings of love and wanting to share everything, absolutely everything, with me that she couldn't hold it in, and we would laugh, have sex, act silly, talk passionately, cry together, and connect in the moment in a way I won't ever connect with anyone else.

I don't regret any of it -- but I'll never let myself go quite like that again, because I see how manic and ungrounded it is. I'd much rather build a slower burning, deeper connection with someone now. What I see now is that I was blind to the red flags because of those moments of utter openness and sincerity. I didn't realise that for some people, like my ex, those moments just don't carry over. We could spend a perfect day together, and then the very next she could be blind with rage and jealousy and want to throw me out of her life completely -- and that would be just as sincere an expression of emotion as her expressions of love and caring the day before, and again the next day. She was somehow aware of this, but just didn't see it as a bad thing -- she would tell me she's a "fiery girl" and that she felt it was best to let rip with whatever emotions you're feeling in the moment. But having seen how unhappy and desperate she is for stability, deep down, in my view it is a bad thing, in fact the worst thing I can imagine, because she's tearing herself to pieces (and those close to her along with her ... .)

In any case, she just can't integrate all her emotions into a stable personality and stable relationship -- and neither could I at first. I ignored the red flags because they didn't fit with the side of her that I was so in love with. And it's been a struggle ever since for me to try to get a balanced picture of my ex, both good and bad.

Strange behaviour and him telling me I would get hurt by him and I don't deserve to get hurt.  And here I am.  Hurt.

Coming on really strong, really fast.

Admitting after we'd spent our first night together, that he was actually seeing someone, but that it hadn't been "serious", and then going off having lunch with her to break up. Arriving at my house an hour later to tell me about this and when I asked how she'd taken it, he said with a little smile "oh, she was a bit sad". I should have wondered a little more about the speed and the callousness of his reaction, but how was I to know how "serious" their relationship was. I had no reason to disbelieve him and anyway, I took it as a compliment to me!  :sign_attn:

Then, yea, oversharing. Within days I knew that he had a porn addiction (about which he felt shame) and that he'd cheated in every relationship he'd ever been in.  Won't happen to me, I thought.  :sign_attn:

Becoming depressed and taking to his bed when he didn't hear from me for a whole day, because I was at work or something. If more than 4 hours went by without my texting him, he'd retire to his room and brood and think "crazy thoughts". He told me this while kind of laughing at himself and what a "loser" he was.   Naturally I both thought this odd and also felt flattered.  :sign_attn:

They are the things I remember very clearly from the first couple of weeks! Things that gave me pause but also felt good on some level.

 :sign_attn: :sign_attn: :sign_attn:

Don't worry, y'all, I have identified those things in myself and am, I sincerely hope, not even 5% as vulnerable as I was. I learned an awful lot about myself in this relationship. 

The first red flag for me was the lack of time between his breakup with his previous partner and his involvement with me. The circumstances of their breakup and his behaviour to her also worried me. She told him that she had been to a bar with a large crowd of people that included one of his other exes, whom she'd never met before. This wasn't a huge coincidence as they all move in the same social circles. My ex immediately became convinced that she'd cheated on him at the bar with this other ex, was furious with her, and broke up immediately. I encouraged him not to do it, as he obviously wasn't thinking straight, but he was adamant that his trust had been betrayed beyond repair.

Less than a week later he was in my arms and telling me how difficult it was for him to enter another relationship. It can't have been that hard, considering he was all over me as soon as I showed the slightest sign of interest, but at the time I was too caught up in my naive conviction that I could rescue him from his cycle of bad relationships to notice these flags.

I agree with Mutt that everybody, not just the disordered, show you who they want you to see. We all do that really and I think it is part of the normal dating ritual especially if you really like that person.
My story was a bit unique  in that we met online and she was in another country. We skyped and emailed more and more and just had this instant connection and I wasn't weary of that although maybe I should have been because it was VERY powerful. Add to that she was sexy and alluring and she had my attention constantly. We didn't say we loved each other until we met about 2 months later but I know we both felt it sooner.
I could talk to her about anything and she me and we shared so much so the first thing that through me off guard was during our first meeting when I shared some benign comment about my ex-wife and her alcoholism (which we talked about a lot previously) and she said " Is that the type of thing you should really be telling the woman you are dating?" WHAT? HUH? Of course I felt confused and embarrassed and apologized.
The second thing that should have woken me up was the fact that she accused me of just wanting to keep her in my bedroom. Prior to meeting we talked of so much intimacy and connection. She always said how much time she wanted to spend making love with me. I didn't think I was expecting anything that she didn't already say she wanted to have happen and we did many many things other than bedroom activities on her first visit. So of course I apologized and backed off at bit. We went to go somewhere and I remember her telling me in the car that she felt like a whore with me. I pulled the car over and held her hand, lovingly looked deep into her eyes and asked her to talk to me about that. It ended up with her crying about things from her past, nothing of which really related to the subject.
Instead of scaring me away, I just wanted to show her how much I loved her and how dedicated to the relationship I was. I felt sorry for her life circumstances ( she had been violently raped as a child, left by a cheating husband, had an autistic son, family and friends had turned their back on her) and I wanted to make up for all those things ( not that I could but I wanted to make her happy and feel loved).
What I didn't get was that this was a foreshadowing of things to come, that she was laying the ground work to control me and take advantage of my love and kindness and that it was going to be all about her.
Fast forward to today, I have learned so many lessons at my personal peril and am emotionally scared and financially devoted.

I meant financially DEVASTATED!

My ex talked about sex non-stop, was hyper-sexual, was the one who suggested we buy a bunch of toys for the bedroom, told me how she wanted to have sex at work, insisted on going down on me while I drove (well, I mean I didn't object, so I don't mean she "insisted" against my will ... .just saying she would bring it up and initiate), etc etc ... .but then every once in a while out of nowhere, she would say, "sometimes I think all you want is sex. I'm used to being with someone who will also show me affection with gifts, or taking me out to dinner, or normal couple stuff."

Like you, I was so thrown by the accusation that I just wanted sex, and felt so instantly guilty, that I didn't stop and think and call her on how unfair and unfounded her accusation was. In hindsight, this was a very obvious part of her manipulation. I'm not sure she realises that, because it's second nature to her. But it's like she would suddenly feel a need to assert control in the relationship, and her way to do it was by manipulation through guilt. One of the most effective ways for a woman to do that is to accuse her man of just using her for sex. I think most guys will instantly feel guilty if they think the woman they love feels that way. You can be sure that if anyone ever said that to me again, I would at least take a minute to reflect on whether that accusation had any basis in reality.

rfriesen,

Almost the same exact thing happened to me. My ex BPD gf was hyper sexual for the first 6-8 months and constantly told me how she wanted to have sex with me "all the time" no matter the circumstance. She even told me that I could initiate sex with her if she was sleeping because it's something that she always wanted. Stark contrast to the last ~2 months before her discard where she never wanted to have sex and accused me of "using her as a sexual object" and "only wanting her for sex". It's a total mind**** but also one of the clearest exploitations of control and most obvious form of manipulation used during the devaluation period which I didn't understand at the time but now do after research.

I remember a conversation with her during the earlier days about how I thought that sex was a very important part of a relationship. I told her that when you're in an exclusive relationship with someone, you represent the only access to sexual activity that your partner has, and how I think that it's very important to be a good steward of that and ensure that your partner doesn't ever feel as though they have no sexual outlet. She agreed with me whole-heartedly but very quickly began to withhold sex when it worked to her benefit. It's absolutely not a fair position to put a person in but with my understanding of the condition now, I know why she did it even though I still think it was wrong.

PJ,
I think I really dodged a bullet by refusing to move in with my ex. I can see it clearly now, but at the time I was so torn about it and came so very close to moving in with her. And yet I had seen how she treated her ex-fiancé while living with him. Besides, she told me how all her past relationships went! She would be obsessed with a guy for 7 to 8 months, then would suddenly lose interest and want something new. If there's one thing I can't accuse her of, it's of not being upfront with me. She let it all hang out and I chose to ignore it. And, although I now question so much of what she told me during our relationship, I tend to believe her that she wasn't having sex with her fiancé anymore when we started together. That's another thing that my ex had even told me about her past relationships in general - that her interest in and attraction to guys often dropped once they moved in together.

It was stupid to get involved with someone who was supposed to be in a committed relationship and even stupider of me to assume that I was bound to be different. But like you (as described in your posts) and so many others here, I was blinded by her openness. I guess I just felt that if she was being so open with me about all her past cheating and loss of interest in her boyfriends, it must show that we were connecting in a much deeper way. I also didn't even know we were headed for a serious relationship until I was already caught up in all the emotional manipulation and felt so invested in the relationship.

But, yes, just like you describe, same for me. My ex was so adamant she wanted us to explore absolutely all of our sexual fantasies together, she wanted us to have as much sex as we could possibly manage, and it did become such a focus of our relationship. I think she felt (maybe only instinctively) that once that was established, it would give her control in the relationship. Because she would then be able to (1) make me feel guilty by occasionally accusing me of focusing too much on sex, and (2) start withholding when it suited her.

Manipulation is bad enough, but manipulation through guilt ... .that really messed me up by the end of our relationship.

Put me in the confessed soulmate love on the first date group   I feel so stupid!

He also told me early on that he could really hold a grudge.  Boy is that an understatement!  I think that was his explanation of painting black and silent treatment.

We had so much in common. Ha!  Later, of course, he complained about many of those things and hated them.

I also didn't listen to my family when they expressed concerns.  I think I feel the worst about this.

And the crazy ex-wives.  Only told me about one at first.  Admitted to another after we were involved.

Oh yes, the charming and manipulating.  He is the master.  He can get about anyone to do what he wants them to before they even know what has happened!

I think is hard to judge actions as red flags, bc they could mean not always BPD but depression or other kind of issues.

I would reccomend to listen to their words... .at least my exgf really warned me about everything, and she explicitly said all her symptoms... .yet i was ignorant about BPD and i was also inlove, i tought it was just depression... .

I suspect theyre honests in the beginning and some really try to get to be known by their partners... .i would say their words is the most obvious red flag.