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I have a first appointment for couples therapy with my H on Wednesday. I'm on "deciding" partly still because I'm trying to figure out what kind of relationship I can expect. Can my H get back to a place of regulation? Can he understand we can't go on emotionally abusing each other? I know he can't now. My T says it's unlikely he ever will. So, I'm preparing for him not to get better and holding out hope he will.

I'm starting to understand more about some people not being ready for couples counseling. Although his case worker at the hospital said he was, and his new therapist isn't stopping him, in my perspective, he has so little into what his issues are that are keeping him apart from me and our 16D it seems unlikely he is ready. Perhaps this will help him see. I don't know.

I have an appointment with T tomorrow and will bring it up with her too. My main goals are being able to communicate without abuse and try to get some agreements on how our separation is going to work.  Realistic? Unrealistic? Others experience?

Thanks!

I've seen this go a few different ways, but rarely with productive outcomes.

The session with the MC might be your husband ranting and complaining about you nonstop, or he might sit there stone-faced the entire time. Or he might walk out. I think this depends more on his particular style of dysregulation. My wife is a talker, so most of our sessions were her stream-of-consciousness complaining.

You will probably end up with the therapist attempting to get you both to agree to some sort of simple change in how you communicate. Your husband may or may not agree with this at the time. He almost certainly will not be able to keep this agreement when he dysregulates later.

Rinse and repeat for as long as you are willing to be in counseling.

This might seem like nuance... but I think it is huge difference.

Work with your T to decide that YOU will not longer be part of or tolerate abusive talk.

Your husband gets to make his own decisions.

Have you ever done couples work before?  Flourdust pretty much has it. 

I have been on and off in couples therapy for years.  You will get several sessions of improvement and then they will usually blame you for something and off you go on a different tangent.

Please post detailed accounts of couples T.  We can help you set appropriate goals.

Perhaps it is helpful to just have a place to communicate without interruption.  You can have your T help you clarify that YOU will be participating in abuse.

FF

I think MC with someone with BPD or likely most PD's, unless they are really willing to work on themselves, and actually own their part, is a total waste of time. We tried it three times, and one therapist(the fourth marriage therapist), refused to see BPDh and I together after only one session with US, but agreed to keep seeing me. He said he couldn't help BPDh, as he seemed too checked out, and I think basically he was too blaming, and not wanting to own any of his contribution.

I often left MC feeling so much worse, and I'd work on what was set out for us in MC, but BPDh would not. It often just stirred up more hurt for me. MC seems to try to split blame/responsibility down the middle, which may work for more normal couples, but when you have someone that already projects all blame, and won't own theirs, it's a bad formula I think.

Our last MC said she could see that MC wasn't helping BPDh's anger, blame or behaviors, and offered to see him alone to work on his anger as it related to our marriage(and his life in general). BPDh flat out refused, and claimed his DBT therapist said he couldn't do that. MC later told me she'd worked with several other clients in DBT therapy, and one doesn't contradict the other, and she thinks he's just saying that.

I continue to do therapy, but I'd never agree to MC again with BPDh unless he was in a much better place. As in willing to take some responsibility, and actually working his DBT program and using the tools.

I've actually moved to the "leaving" board, but I still like to check in here. Most stories I see on here don't get good results from MC. This last time I went in thinking it likely would be a repeat of the others times, but I knew this therapist was a lot better, but we got the same result: her giving up on us, as only one of us was willing to truly work on behavior modification, and she thinks he's abusive. I'm getting a lot of help from her though. She's been great for me, and I'm getting a lot stronger.

I asked my husband to do couples therapy with me and he was certain that I was planning on divorcing him and that was the first step. He reluctantly agreed to go and later told me that every time it felt like he was going to "get beat up" by me and the therapist.

For me, a positive result was that I was finally able to air my grievances without being talked over, interrupted, shouted at, left in mid-sentence. He seldom said much but the therapist attempted to get him to talk about his issues with me and occasionally he did so.

He dysregulated in front of the therapist on a few occasions, both at me and at her. Ultimately I think it marginally improved our communication somewhat, but in the year we went, I don't think it was worth the expense.

That said, I began doing individual therapy with the same psychologist and she told me that he has a personality disorder and described his behavior toward me as "abusive." I had been previously married to a man who was physically abusive and much more verbally abusive, so my current husband's behavior didn't quite register on the "abusive" scale to me.

It's been very helpful to work with her, as well as to participate here. I now have a much greater understanding of my husband and his limitations and I'm able to work around much of his less than optimal behavior. So in all, it was a good experience for me--just not what I had expected out of doing couples therapy.

I'm stuck on the fence, so to speak.  When I look at my marriage, it seems just like a cold, boring, loveless marriage that functions well-enough to provide for the kids.  We have conversations, concerns, and troubles like many couples do.  We don't have the "in love" aura, but that's young love stuff for the most part. 

So, I ask myself what more could I want. 

And, it looks from the outside like it's all my fault, too.  I set up my bedroom in the basement.  I set up boundaries.  I decided to not engage in angry interchanges.  I decided to walk out of what I don't like.  I disengaged.  All of these things I did to basically save my life after what was then 18 years of being the victim (and reactive abuser) in a verbally and emotionally abusive marriage.  I have gotten better, and therefore the marriage functionality appears better. 

Although I am still stuck and undecided, I wonder what good would come of couples counseling.  Would it just turn into a session of me looking like the bad guy?  Would it trigger her and unleash the BPD beast?  Would it fuel her rage?  Would our marriage get the stamp of approval as being "good enough for now?"  Would I be told to keep working at it?  Would it send me spinning back into a hurtful relationship?  Would it help? (note: probably not because she does not accept responsibility well). 

I know that if I would have tried couples counseling last year, at the state I was in, it would have been the nail in the coffin for my marriage.  She would have blamed, projected, twisted and attacked - that would be enough to see and prove that I was done and ready for divorce.  This year though, after her adapting to my distance and better behavior, I am not sure what would come of it.  I don't look forward to looking at her and being honest about how much I am hurt, and grieve getting married to her.  I just don't want to hurt her feelings.  And, I don't want to release the vengeful demon who would poison the kids. 

On the other hand, I am thinking about marriage counseling, just to see what happens.  I feel like poking the bear just to remind myself why we fear and hunt down bear.  Like I want justification for my gut feeling the past 19 years, and a reason I can articulate for wanting a divorce.

The boundaries you set up have set the stage for love and respect to come back in your relationship.

This is because boundaries have given you free will again.  Instead of being at the beck and call of your wife, you have clarified that you will make choices.  You have also clarified that you will respect your wife's choices and give her the space to make those choices.

Make choices "for" another person is much more powerful that "having to do" to something.

Hopefully someday your wife my invite you up to spend time with her and be kind.  You will especially know how difficult that is for her and the effort she is putting out.

That may inspire you to make similar effort... .which might inspire her.

There is hope... .boundaries protect that small flame of hope.  See what you can do to fan those flames.

FF

Ditto on my MC. 

We had been to 4 MC and we got to a point when we started working on her stuff and the dysregulation began.  She was asked to leave 4 times when dysregulated with our last MC.    Then she did not want to go anymore. 

I felt validated that in the sense the MC saw the dysregulation and seemed a little scared also.  That was one of the first people outside of kids and her family that saw her that way. 

I did give me the ability to have a balanced xiscussion where MC would give me space to talk and not allow the  circular arguments

@Formflyer - maybe what you say is true.  I just am looking inside myself and looking to see if I care anymore.  I think I passed the point of repairable damage.  I don't hold hope anymore.  I do not know if a relationship can always be saved.  I think I stayed far too long, but am stuck because of the kids.  I don't have an emotional response to the idea of fixing the marriage.  Maybe I'm broken.  

I keep it together now.  I am happier and healthier now.  I act better.  She acts better now.  Superficially, we are improved.  But, at the end of the day, end of the battle, or the end of the proverbial book, I still can't find feelings for her - like I probably should.   I have an internal belief that contact is damage, less contact is less damage.  

I'm a runner.  I run marathon distances at times. Although I love it, I know that at a certain point you pass through into a zone in which you can't stop, but can't reason what or why you are doing it.  You run, because you run.  Albeit, I benefit tremendously from running and meditation.  Unlike marriage, in which I am married because I am married and just keep going, one foot in front of the other, but this time without benefit.  I'm in that zone where I can't reason what or why I am doing.

Maybe MC will bring me back to my sensibilities.  Or, maybe I am immune and numb for a reason.

In the Hollywood movie Cleopatra, there's a moment where Cleopatra is trying to rouse a dejected Mark Antony to battle. She says to him, "Too late is better than never."

I recently turned 65 and had a slew of new "elder" HMO tests for my periodic physical exam. At the end of this parade of tests and blood draws, my primary care physician said, "You could live another thirty or forty years."

I imagined one version of my future and thought  . But then I imagined another and thought  |iiii.

Probably because that Cleopatra thought popped up.

So I say, keep on running, Samwize. "Run, Samwize, Run!" You're definitely getting somewhere.

Hey uniquename,

I'm with those above re: MC.  In theory, it can't hurt and conceivably might help; in reality, it proved an exercise in futility.  My BPDxW viewed me as the sole source of all our problems and MC as the forum to "prove" my shortcomings.  Marriage Counselor refused to participate in the blame game so it was more or less of a standoff, with no positive movement.

LuckyJim

 

So let's assume that your r/s is past the point of repairable damage.  Always good to look at all angles.

From what I've read, there is not much about your "old" r/s that would be attractive to go back to.  Sure... .most of us have that initial infatuation stage that was really nice, I'm not talking about that stage.

What if instead of repairing the "old" r/s you created a "new" r/s with your wife?  One that looks totally different.  To be true to the boundaries point of view, you can (and are) creating a new structure for your marriage relationship.  You wife is still sorting out if she is OK with it, likely because it feels dysfunctional or bad to her

Please realize that because of their FOO issues that "healthy and normal" will seem scary/dangerous.  So, especially when they are stressed, they will grab for familiar over what is healthy.

My hope for you is that we can educate you on what is healthy for a r/s and that you will be able to live out your healthy values.  That you can learn to be appropriately supportive of your wife and that you will develop a fulfilling life apart from your marriage relationship.  Primary purpose of having a fulfilling life outside of marriage is so that you can leave her alone (after providing appropriate support) to let her sort out her stuff.

FF

Many people with PDs are "set in stone" about trying to "prove" right and wrong.  A frontal assault against this will fail.  There is to much power and momentum in their point of view.

The trick is to just slightly alter the language and to "deflect" their power and momentum, vice push back. 

You conserve your energy... .let them exhaust themselves.

So, instead of blaming or accepting blame, talk about "responsibility".  I am responsible for my feelings and actions... .  Let MC get them to accept responsibility for their actions.

FF

Thanks everyone for sharing. It's good to know. I did see on thehotline.org they say forget it (www.thehotline.org/2014/08/why-we-dont-recommend-couples-counseling-for-abusive-relationships/). I'm still planning to go at least the once.

We actually did have couples therapy once before. I believe it was shortly after we got married. It may have been just before. We had gotten our first dog. I don't think uBPDH had ever had a dog before while I had one all my life (sometimes 2). He was getting angry with the dog and kicked it one time (maybe more). We went to counseling to talk about his anger and she seemed very much on my side. In hindsight, duh. I don't regret my marriage. We've had good times. We had our daughter after so many years of good times I really wanted to share our love. But yeah, has he been mild BPD all this time and it just got worse with worse depression? Is it not BPD at all but learned improper behavior that could be unlearned? It's hard not to trust all the people telling me to get out. I have little expectations of success but feel like at least I want to see if it could help. We do have a kid together so no contact is not an option... .

Thanks again to everyone for helping me to set expectations on this. I felt great after our session. I have no idea what H will think but should find out tomorrow or Saturday (our designated contact times). One of my frustrations over the past two and a half years with his prior therapist is that he not only made little progress but got worse.

Between me and my T we decided I would try to let him talk first in our couples session and as much as he wanted and I'd bite my tongue. This couples therapist (if we do more) does an individual session with each of us next and that's when I can talk more freely. He came in and tried his "I'm fine now, it's just her," approach and I finally got to see his perspective (or what he tells others and likely himself) as to what's happened. He skipped over the part of the story where he texted our 16D implying that he was about to kill himself and leaving that to lay on her. He doesn't remember me trying to convince him to go to the hospital the night before he left. He couldn't explain rationally why he left and called 16D to say goodbye and not his wife. Why he didn't call me when he was suicidal. When he began complaining about not getting to see his daughter and that being my fault, she said that any judge would not force a 16 year old to see her father. I felt like I went out of body listening to him at times - it's very hard for me to hear him so delusional - but overall it was very validating.

The best part: he called 16D voice a couple hours later and she answered. He apparently wished her well tomorrow for her wisdom teeth appointment. She got off the phone and said surprised, "He sounded normal. Like really normal." I told her that was great. No, obviously there's no miracle cure, but thank god for that small bit of happiness in her life.

Uniquename,

I would hope that YOU would commit to going to 3-4 months of couples T... .regardless of what your hubby does.

After that long, talk it over on here and with your T and make a best decision.  Do NOT hand him any power in this decision.  That may mean that you are going alone for a while... .who knows.

You are the emotionally healthy one and need to provide structure to the r/s can have a chance to heal.  Do NOT be surprised if it seems that he is trying to tear it down... .as in tear down the structure.  Structure likely feels foreign to him.

What are your thoughts on this advice?

FF

That's good news on the T session(s)!  It's good to hear.  What I have observed, in my example, is that my wife can actually be good / normal / well-behaved for a period of time.  However, I suspect it takes a great deal of effort on her part to suppress the core negativity / chaos / blame and confusion in core her personality.  It comes out in subtle verbal and non-verbal cues and behaviors - which I don't address usually.  But, superficially, it can seem nice while it lasts.

I hope that your H can keep up good behavior at least some of the time.  I always hope that during that time for my wife, my kids can glimpse normal,  and I hope that is lasts in their developing psyche. 

It is refreshing, albeit confusing when we are deciding to stay or go. 

Best of luck!

As I ponder this I realize that I have, over the last year, come to discover that my intrinsic values align well with some of what I read about in Buddhist teachings.  I have detached from what caused pain and suffering and is beyond my control (i.e. my wife).  Although it's not necessarily a well thought-out plan or a path to enlightenment, I have "sold my stock" in my wife and our relationship.  I feel like I have put her beyond the range of what can help me or hurt me.  I do note that I am trying to have a fulfilling life, one with meaning and without my wife.  I feel less anxiety about divorce since I am surviving with or without her.  Sometimes I see her just as a current cost of living, a dependent who uses household resources.  

The scars of my marriage are deep and I will need a while to sort that out.  But, I am happy because I choose happiness. 

Hey Samwize, Detachment, I agree, is the preferred strategy in a BPD r/s; otherwise, one is investing energy in the irrational and unreasonable, which is difficult to sustain.  I got to the point where, in my detachment, I refused to share personal feelings with my BPDxW because she would use those feelings against me.  It was not much of a marriage when I could no longer be open with my spouse, but that's what happened.  It sounds as if you are in a similar situation, albeit while still married.

uniquename, Sorry to hijack this thread for a moment there and glad to hear MC was productive for you!

LuckyJim

LJ - yes, I'm detached, and that's what it took for me. 
I know it can't be forever like this, but, I don't see another way.  I'm divested.  And I get it exactly when you say you can't have shared things with your wife.  I am like that - too many things have been hashed and rehashed by her.  Like when one learns eventually to not touch the hot pan, I learned eventually to not give her any ammunition. 
Ironically, she says that she just has to suppress her feelings around me, and not be open.  Which actually is a gift to me but she doesn't see it that way.

And to uniquname - please forgive me for the highjack!  Good luck on your continued progress!

Well, the next morning the dissociation wore off and I had the new experience of learning what heaving sobs are. Hey, you really heave! Who knew? Anyway, I think it hit me both all the pain from what he said and is feeling about me and all the sadness from just how far gone he is. I married by best friend and I've lost him. I had to get up and going though for 16D so I did. Got an email from uBPDh saying he's ready to head towards mediation with the expectation of remaining separate. Kinda figured he wouldn't go for the couples once he saw he wasn't going to get out of it what he hoped (how terrible I've been to him). Since neither of us (MC or me) would persecute or rescue, his victim was a waste of his time. I'll still plan to call him Saturday. His direction is like the Florida weather in summer - just wait a bit and it'll change.

FF - I don't understand the advice of attending couples therapy alone. She said the next steps were to decide together whether she's a good fit and if so she would meet with each of us individually next. I already am seeing my own T.

Ahh... .yes, let me explain some more.

IF the issue is that this MC is not a good fit, but you guys are both ok with going to a  different one, then I think it is OK to switch.

Usually a pwBPD will say they will go, then back out, then claim they never agreed and the non decides not to go to MC.  Then, the pwBPD will claim they wanted to  go all along, but the non didn't show up at appointment... .so... .it's not their fault.

Personally, I have had my wife threaten many times to quit, I went and my wife showed up after I called her bluff.

The basic position is to let the other person know that the marital r/s is important and that you will be taking steps to make it better and you invite them along.  No threats.

Now, if you go several times, he quits and you go several times by yourself, it's time for some kind of affirmative communication to clarify things.  We can cross that bridge if we ever get there.

Hope this clarifies.  If you are ok with the MC... then keep going.  Don't base your decision on if your hubby wants to go or not.

FF

Uniquename, I'm sort of taking FF's tactic with my own uBPDh. It has been strongly suggested that he and I attend a spiritual session addressing our marital issues. This was something that I had wanted to do before others suggested it, but h was very opposed to the idea. His response to those suggesting it was that I was not willing to attend. I had already talked to the leaders and contacted them after h told them of my reluctance; they were understandably confused because I had expressed willingness to them.

H knows that I've talked with the leaders and everything is good from my end. He doesn't know that I've also contacted those who suggested the session as well. At this point as far as he knows, I am willing to attend; I would want to do that even if husband wasn't willing. He hasn't followed up or written a proposal for getting funding for this session. As long as everyone is clear that he is the one who is passively resisting, it works for me; I'm not going to take the blame for his unwillingness. He still doesn't really want to attend; he just can't tell the suggesters that though because he wants to be accepted.

pwBPD seem to excel at creating confusion and blurring the concept of responsibility

Validation and emotional support definitely have their place in trying to improve a relationship with a pwBPD.

I think it is more important to have strong boundaries and clarify who is responsible for what in the relationship.  You can't force them to take responsibility, but you can be obvious about taking responsibility for "your stuff" and leave the stuff they are trying to give you or "toss on you" very obviously laying on the floor

If they are uncomfortable with that... .they can sort that out.

FF

It's so much toddler psychology!
We keep giving in to the tantrums and their ego-centric thinking, we build a habit of doing it.
I think that's a source of the advice you get often here - take care of you. 

This was exactly how MC went with pretty much all three therapists. Yeah, I really am a slow learner  lol

This latest, and best therapist we were seeing for MC(she's also my individual therapist), saw that nothing was being gained, only I was doing the work, and she outright told me he's unmotivated to change, and feels entitled to abuse me. She suggested we don't do any more MC. She offered to work with him on his anger, solo, but he said it conflicted with his DBT therapy. She later told me that she's worked with several people that are in DBT, so he pretty much invented that I'm sure.

She feels our marriage is "unsustainable", and it's taken me a long time to get there, to lose all hope, but I agree. I've managed to use the tools here(to the best of my ability), tried to modify my behaviors to not trigger him, worked on things HE wanted me to work on, yet none of this improved anything.

His daughter just told me(even though his daughters hate me), that he always blames others, won't take any responsibility for his choices/behaviors, and that he'll just do this to someone else after me. Of course they have huge BPD/NPD traits too, but I think in this case, she is correct, as I've come to that same conclusion.

Yeah uBPDh sent me an email he made an appointment to continue the next step (she meets with each of us individually) and then said he's going to cancel it. :-)

I called and made two appointments - one for myself with her and one for us together. He hadn't cancelled his yet.

More drama last night. Maybe ready to move to detaching. It's getting much harder to imagine us ever together.

 
Do not "fight" over going to MC. 

Let him know times and you go and continue to go for several sessions.

That way each of you can "listen" to actions.  Don't listen much to words.

FF

Hey UN, maybe it's a threat; maybe he will cancel it.  My BPDxW inevitably dropped out of therapy, with MC or with her own T, whenever the T got around to holding her accountable for her actions.  LJ