BPDFamily.com

It's finally soaking in how codependent I've been all my life. I don't like being around depressed BPDs, yet I've gravitated to two husbands who fit the bill after escaping from my BPD mother.

So my strategy has been to take on the mantle of trying to distract/amuse/entertain/improve/counsel/listen. I thought I was being a good partner, but now I realize that my motivation had an ulterior motive--I just didn't want to continue to listen to their whiny ass complaints, but nothing I seemed to do would make them happier, and ultimately me happier because they'd shut the f up.

Now I find myself curiously detached at times. I hear the endless complaints--my husband had a phone tech out yesterday afternoon because his internet speed was temporarily down. And the rest of the evening he complained because the guy was a jerk, the phone line went dead for a while, the internet speed was down 50%, then later everything was running like normal. Hours later he was still griping.

I validated that it took hours of his time and that it was frustrating. To myself I'm thinking "White People's Problem" and "Why the hell are you still grousing about this when it's working the way it should?"

The upside of my attitude is that I don't get sucked into his drama, yet I can still validate him. The downside is that I continually lose respect for him when he acts like this.

Ideas?

I can remember lying on the couch watching TV with my husband while a steady stream of complaints and negativity came out of his mouth.  Night after night.  Nothing positive, ever.  It was draining and exhausting and infuriating.  This was in the 80's. 

I can remember being in the car with my  husband numerous times over the years and listening to his constant b___ing and moaning about anything and everything.  Sometimes I wanted to open the door at a stoplight and just jump out and run away.

So I totally understand where you're coming from.  I was never able to get my husband to understand how how his "grumpiness" (to me it was far worse than grumpy) affected me.  He would just get mad if I tried to discuss it with him about it and say, "Well, I just won't talk then."  Then I'd get the angry silent treatment. 
I'm sure there are better strategies than dealing with this issue than the ones I used. To cope,  I mainly just separated myself from him emotionally.  And here I am.  He's packing as we speak and moving out in a few days after 34 years of marriage. 

So... .he is packing!  This is good.  Does it seem like he will make it?

FF

Let me reword this to fit my situation somewhat

I am never able to get my wife to understand how her laziness/b___ing about the smallest little sh&%/always letting me know how I have let her down... .the list goes on affects me. She just gets mad if I try to discuss any of it with her and lets me know what a piece of crap I am. To cope, I mainly separate myself to an extent. THEN when she feels she needs me and I don't deliver what she needs then I have made her vunerable because she opened herself up to me.

Tonight she asked me not to come home after work because she wants time away from me |iiii going to eat some chinese.

Hey Cat,

I understand the losing of respect.

Cat Familiar,

Please consider as you read this, that my ideas are still developing, but I think for me I on the right track.

I think that validation and those strategies work for someone that is a bit off kilter... .perhaps the first few minutes.

If you can find the "validation target" and things relax... .then great! 

I doubt that will/is working with your hubby.  Still, I want you to try because you want to be a good partner and YOUR actions need to reflect that.  Good partners care about their partners feelings... .to a point (or perhaps to a healthy level). 

Yep... .most of us have confused "healthy level" for a long time.  But basically... .you need to figure that out... .do that much... .and no more!

In fact... .it's time for a FF movie moment... .  Cat Familiar will draw the line HERE!  No further!

https://youtu.be/Jln3mi0vfJU

Actually... .that attitude is really what it is all about.  BPDs have invaded our space and keep taking... .keep assimilating until we have no idea who we are.  Draw the line... .

OK... .transport me back to reality.

So, what to do after "appropriate support".

Be concerned... but direct and ask a direct question.

"Hey... .you are really worked up over this (or mad... .or angry... but name it).  Is there anything I can do to help you work through it?"

Listen for emotions to validate... .and perhaps a good idea.

If the answer is to sit there an listen, it's time for a direct heart to heart. 

"Honey, I'm really interested in helping your manage your anger, but it is taking a toll on my outlook on life.  I believe that if I listen to it more, I will become angry and I won't be a very good partner for you.  I want the best for us in this relationship.  I hope we can find a solution for this anger issue"

Note... .it is about you.  The anger is named but not blamed.

Validate and then move to solutions.

Thoughts?

FF

I would have a chat when you get home.  Let her know you did this to be a good partner, that you hope it helped and that as a general rule, if someone needs space... .they need to leave vice "kick the other out".

Nothing wrong with what you did as long as it doesn't become a pattern.

FF

she just called me. She asked me if I had a minute to listen, I said sure.

I didn't say a word

She proceeded to tell me that when I texted back that "I would go find something to do" that it just PROVED to her that I didn't care. It's all about proving a point. She proceeded to tell me what I should have said. I should have said I will come home and apologize for behaving the way I have been behaving etc. 

this is AFTER she texts me and tells me don't try to come home and try to spite her or try to "talk" to her about things.

I let her say what she had to say and then she said I am finished, bye. I didn't say a word.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIlETZGfSpU

listen to the first 10 seconds of this... .this is what I feel like  :)

can I get a witness!

 
Might be worth switching to a different thread... .so we don't totally hijack Cat's thread.

Stick'em up Cat!  We have your thread... .

Anyway... .FF says that you need to have 2 chats when you get home. 

1 about running people off

2 about interpreting your intentions.  #2 is triggering for me... .I drew a really hard line against it.  Psychologist is actually trying to get me to soften it some.  I've made my point and it has gotten way... .way better. 

Basically... the dismissal thing (the idea... not the person) and then focus it back to why it is important to them.

FF

Honestly... .this was a bit predictable. 

Your goal is to slow things down.

"I want the best for you, and I'll be able to give you my full attention when I get home.  Right now I'm preoccupied."

Remember... .when they are on the war path, slow them down.  Once they stop seeing you as the solution when they are worked up... your life will be immeasurably better.

FF

Cat, I'll add my apologies too for hijacking your post.  

What I've learned from being on this site is that the strategies others use use seem to work in some cases for some pwBPD.  In my case, the situation was probably too far gone and my husband too messed up for anything to work.  I basically did not have anything to work with.  

I don't think that's the case for you, Cat.  Your husband seems far less sick than mine.  I'm not minimizing your husband's issues; I know they're real and that you struggle to deal with him and keep your own sanity at times.  Relationships like these are SO MUCH work.  

I also understand how the complaining and the negative behavior slowly erodes your respect for him.  It was only maybe five years ago that I suddenly realized the drip drip of my husband's nasty behavior had completely changed the way I felt about him.  He just ruined everything, little by little, yet has no understanding that he has done anything whatsoever to contribute to the demise of the marriage. 

I have the same vibe that Verbena has about Cat's hubby. 

Only way to find out if this strategy works... .is to give it a shot.

1.  Validate.

2.  Clearly name what you are seeing and ask what role you can play in helping. (don't get mired in debate about what you are seeing)

3.  If the answer is suck it up and listen to the b___ing.  Politely decline, with expressions of value for r/s.

4.  Stop listening to it.  Don't get drawn into drama about being non-supportive, not caring.  Be direct in your manner and consistently express value about him and the r/s.  Keep it short.

Cat,

You seem to be comfortable being a direct person.  I think if you can have genuine concern in your voice when you ask what can be done, that will be the key.  No snark... .but genuine concern.

FF

"I was never able to get my husband to understand how how his "grumpiness" (to me it was far worse than grumpy) affected me.  He would just get mad if I tried to discuss it with him about it and say, "Well, I just won't talk then."  Then I'd get the angry silent treatment."

Yes, and because their emotions are so overwhelming, they don't give a sh!t about how their behavior affects us. It's all about them. I've even had the experience of trying to broach this topic in a very gentle, diplomatic way and though I am direct, I've gotten feedback from friends that I can be very diplomatic. And guess what, the response I've gotten from my husband: "It's all about you." Projection much?

"I think that validation and those strategies work for someone that is a bit off kilter... .perhaps the first few minutes.

If you can find the "validation target" and things relax... .then great!  

I doubt that will/is working with your hubby.  Still, I want you to try because you want to be a good partner and YOUR actions need to reflect that.  Good partners care about their partners feelings... .to a point (or perhaps to a healthy level).  

Yep... .most of us have confused "healthy level" for a long time.  But basically... .you need to figure that out... .do that much... .and no more!"


You've hit on an important point, FF. I seem to miss the "validation target" consistently. I think this stems from being too analytical. I think "if I were him, what would I be upset about in this moment," and the problem is that I'm not coming from a disordered mindset, so I get it wrong. Lots of times I guess "irritated" when it's probably "hurt, rejected, devalued." An additional problem is that he doesn't want to be read--it makes him feel too vulnerable--he either doesn't know what he feels or he doesn't want to tell me.

More later... .thanks for the responses.

Cat,

I think that instead of you missing the target, it is likely that he just doesn't want to be validated.

There is a certain amount of openness required for that.

I'm not saying to not try... .but if you miss it.  There is a good chance it isn't you.

Next time you think you miss the target... .ask directly.  "Hey, I was trying to be supportive of your emotions, what emotions were you experiencing?"

FF

Honestly, I'm pretty good at validation and empathy (and it usually works for 'normal' people). Even when I've hit the target square according to him, my husband sometimes doesn't stop his grumpiness and complaining -- he keeps on, telling me that I don't listen to me. So, I've even asked him what I'm missing, but he can't come up with anything else.

He was in a training program several years ago where they talked about their emotional world, and he said that he was angry all the time. He also monopolizes conversations which they picked up on (of course), and he said he didn't feel listened to. These are people who are professionally trained to listen to others.

Anyway, I have a theory that the lack of ability to empathize with others also prevents their ability to receive empathy properly and prevents connection.

Now, I can identify that as a problem that I am not responsible for, and I try not to take the bait. I've been considering some kind of limit on how much complaining and 'discussion' I can tolerate for myself.

Well, FF, I had an opportunity to draw the line an hour ago. We're getting ready for some friends to visit and sometime during the day, probably when I was gone running errands (and he was home), the FedEx truck showed up and left a notice on our door. It wasn't anything that I had ordered so I put the paper where he could see it.

He sees it and basically yells, "When did this arrive?" I said I didn't know, I just saw it on the front door (which is glass). I said that I didn't like his tone of voice and if he had a problem with me, he ought to tell me what it is.

That set him off, slamming things on the counter, yelling, telling me he didn't like my attitude and that I hated him.

I said, I don't hate you. I don't like your behavior. Any adult would agree that they wouldn't want to be spoken to disrespectfully.

Then he said, "It's always me. You're always blaming me. It's never your problem."

I said, "Yes, it is my problem. I don't like being disrespected."

He then apologized, as in an apology in a grumpy voice that's not really an apology.

I said, "Thank you. That's all I needed. It's done now." And after a few minutes I spoke to him about our party preparations as though that exchange never happened.

Probably about a half hour later he came into my office and told me that he's tired of me saying "You always... ." I doubt that I said that, though he frequently does say that to me, you know the black and white thinking of BPD. So I said, "You're right. I'll have to watch that and be more mindful."

I'm realizing that I am consciously modeling healthy behavior after a conflict. And, to his credit, he's getting over things a bit quicker.

Now, for that instant gratification piece--he couldn't even wait a day for his package to be delivered, he's driving down to the FedEx office right now in his swim trunks. Our friends should be here any minute.  lol

"Good partners care about their partners feelings... .to a point (or perhaps to a healthy level). 

Yep... .most of us have confused "healthy level" for a long time.  But basically... .you need to figure that out... .do that much... .and no more!"


Yessss. I remember having the belief that I couldn't be happy unless my partner was happy. And with a BPD partner, that basically means NEVER!

I'm trying to cultivate my healthy narcissism, and be a bit more detached. Like I don't give a sh!t about you being upset over such a trivial issue--this is something I would say internally, never externally. I may have to go a bit overboard to counter a lifetime of codependency, but I'm starting to learn how to detach from things I consider stupid things to be upset about. Like not getting a FedEx delivery.

Be concerned... but direct and ask a direct question.

"Hey... .you are really worked up over this (or mad... .or angry... but name it).  Is there anything I can do to help you work through it?"

Listen for emotions to validate... .and perhaps a good idea.

If the answer is to sit there an listen, it's time for a direct heart to heart.  

"Honey, I'm really interested in helping your manage your anger, but it is taking a toll on my outlook on life.  I believe that if I listen to it more, I will become angry and I won't be a very good partner for you.  I want the best for us in this relationship.  I hope we can find a solution for this anger issue"

Note... .it is about you.  The anger is named but not blamed.


I like this. One thing I'm learning is that my husband really seeks to deflect blame. So if I immediately make it my issue, like I get upset/angry/whatever, then I've gotten there first, before he tries to attack, saying I put all of it on him.

Really, it is all on him lots of times. I'll be minding my own business, going along happily, and then he's all grumpy/pissy over something transitory and inconsequential and there's no way that I'm equally to blame. But I sure don't like being the recipient of his grumpy/pissyness and that's my issue.

I also understand how the complaining and the negative behavior slowly erodes your respect for him.  It was only maybe five years ago that I suddenly realized the drip drip of my husband's nasty behavior had completely changed the way I felt about him.  He just ruined everything, little by little, yet has no understanding that he has done anything whatsoever to contribute to the demise of the marriage. 


That's a really good way to put it, Verbena. And what's really irritating is when they save the ugliness for their "loved one" and act princely with strangers, sometimes shifting gears in an instant.

Thanks to everyone here, I'm starting to realize that I can't put up with the nastiness anymore, even though it's fairly minimal, compared to my first husband. It just becomes one more black mark against him in my record book. Nothing ever truly horrible, but still, I need to set tighter boundaries for me. I'm done just enduring and ignoring unconsciously unkind behavior. I'm calling it out and I think I finally have the skill set to do so. We'll see... .I'll keep y'all posted... .


And no worries as far as hijacking my thread. Oh good grief, I think of all the times I've done that, and I'm embarrassed to say how often I've been completely oblivious to doing that. Nothing on this thread seemed like a hijack at all--just an alternative perspective on the topic. So please keep it coming. It's very helpful to me to hear from all of you. 

And what's really irritating is when they save the ugliness for their "loved one" and act princely with strangers, sometimes shifting gears in an instant.

Oh yes. I saw this today when my son-in-law's mother came by the house.  He put on quite a show for her.  It's like flipping a switch.  I've seen it so many times. 

Cat,

I do think you have the skill set to deal with it.

I think you are "working on" the mindset.  Perhaps you feel comfortable with us and that is some of the reason you use the words you do.  

Instead of using the words "call him out".  (My visual here is Cat out in the street, six shooter in her holster, wind blowing her hair and a short cigarillo jauntily hanging out of her mouth).  Ivy League hubby steps out in the street.  "You've been grumpy for the last time AND you left your wet clothes on the floor again... .prepare to meet your maker"   Note:  I would stay inside!    :)

Chuckling to myself here...  

What I would hope there would be is grumpy husband and a genuine validating concern is expressed.  Perhaps he accuses of patronizing.  Genuine shock as this idea is brushed aside and followed with a direct question "Are you angry (or other emotion)?  Is there something I can do to support you?"

If he says no. "Oh good, what did you think of the fish last night.  I think we need more lemon drizzled on it."  :)on't give the former conversation another thought

If he continues to lash out.  Express concern for him and let him know that you can't continue a conversation while accusations or mind reading is present.  That you will be back in 10 min.

If he apologizes.  Accept and move on.  I think you are doing great with that piece of it.  He is obviously expecting to be "hammered" for it for days.  You simply agree and move on to other business.  He is free... .as are you.  After a while he will start to feel safer because of this.

FF

PS: My goal in all this is for you to uphold your boundary and value that you don't listen to grumpiness.  I would hope this could all be accomplished in 5 minutes.  Factor in a 10 minute break where you do something pleasant, then check back in.  Repeat.

If you can think of the 10 minute break as you "looking for an umbrella or raincoat" because of an unexpected storm, rather than a jerk that is ruining your life, that will help you mindset.

"I think that instead of you missing the target, it is likely that he just doesn't want to be validated. There is a certain amount of openness required for that."


"I have a theory that the lack of ability to empathize with others also prevents their ability to receive empathy properly and prevents connection."


Great comments, FF and empath. I find it rather humorous in an ironic way that when I try to be compassionate, empathetic, validating, supportive, etc. and it doesn't work, goes sideways or I get accused of thinking that I'm "so perfect," my go-to response is to immediately assume that I've been clumsy in my support for him. These aren't abilities that were demonstrated or nurtured in my FOO.

Then I remember in grad school for counseling that one of my professors took me aside and asked if I realized how comfortable I made people feel. I was astounded; I had no idea that could possibly be true; I felt so inadequate, immature, self-focused, shy, less than... .

I still don't own that quality, though I've been told at times over the years that I have been very helpful and supportive of friends and acquaintances.

I think living so many years with three different pwBPD has really made me doubt myself, though I'm also quick to label my husband an a*hole--not to his face, but within my internal dialog, which usually puts a smile on my face and allows me to shift gears emotionally rather than getting stuck feeling hurt or unappreciated.

Cat,

It is very interesting to get to know each other on here.

I think if you can take your "direct and no-nonsense" attitude (please correct if I am wrong about your core approach to life) and apply that to your communication about your hubby's feelings, I think things will fall into place more.  (rather than "trying" to validate)

Communicating that you are there for him, that you want to understand HIS feelings is a powerful message.  If he lets you in his world... .stay there with him.  When it's time to leave his world, go on about life and don't bring it up again.  (until next time to be supportive)

If he starts blaming and "doing the BPD thing", it's now about protecting you.  Leave his world while succinctly and directly expressing support for him and for yourself.

I think you are really close to a fundamental shift in how you "deal with" your hubby.

FF

I know I went through that kind of process too--I identified things which were abusive/destructive, then I protected myself with boundary enforcement.

Then... .as I got used to the new normal, I noticed that other, less egregious and more subtle things were problems, and did something about those.

Funny... .I'm staying with my parents for a few weeks right now, and over the years as I've gotten better at this kind of thing, I've become more and more sensitive to the way my mom talks to my dad. She sounds completely irritated with him, and puts him down horribly--if not with words, with the tone of her voice. And he generally backs down and apologizes, trying to keep the peace. I soo want to call her out on her behavior, but I've learned the hard way that it just doesn't help if a third party does it.

But this is all at a fairly subtle level, and not fully acknowledged... .at least by my mom. My dad does seem to know he's being picked on, at least... .he just fades away rather than addressing it.

There were times when I wouldn't have even noticed it.


My wife accused me of being insensitive / making her feel bad / etc. For most of my marriage. Only in the last couple years (and more so once we separated, now another couple years) have I realized that if this ever was true, it certainly isn't now.

It has been a long hard path for me to come to believe that I am, like you, empathetic, validating, supportive, compassionate... .and that people notice and appreciate it.

I had an interesting experience yesterday in which I did see a fundamental shift in how I deal with my husband. I got a hay delivery and and I told the seller in no uncertain terms that there was no way he would be able to turn around his gooseneck trailer at the top of my driveway--it's just too tight a turn for a long trailer.

So, instead of backing up, I hear the truck approaching the turnaround island at the top of the driveway and I knew what was going to happen. Four hours later of trying to maneuver the truck and trailer, they end up stuck on a rock by the pool and decide to call a tow truck. Well, the tow truck company decides that they need to charge them $200 in addition to the insurance payment, so they decide to leave the truck overnight and get a friend who has a crane to pull them out today.

My husband comes home and of course starts fuming about this fiasco, even though it's not blocking our access, other than we have to walk around the truck to get to the pool.

In the past, he would have tried to get me upset too, but it occurred to me that there was no benefit to me to be upset, so why do it? Also, I was prepared with a sentence which I didn't need to use: "I've certainly done some dumb things, haven't you?"

Also I see this whole incident as a city person vs. a country person. If you don't have experience actually doing stuff in the physical world, you don't realize that sh!t happens and you just have to figure out how to fix it. My husband has lived his professional life indoors, immersed in legal issues. In his mind, you just pay somebody to fix things in the material world, and it happens--you don't see the nitty gritty of trying to figure out how to do it.

So by me not getting engaged in his drama, I didn't lend energy to his upset and he was welcome to deal with it all by himself.

Yes, I'm tuning into much subtler behavior than I ever reacted to before. Both my mother and my exhusband were inyourface nasty and abusive. My current husband only expresses his unpleasantness though voice tone, innuendo and through asking pointed questions. His years as a lawyer have served him well; there's little to accuse him of being verbally abusive since he covers his tracks so well, but gets the point across anyway.

One of my friends who has seen the unpleasantness said, "He has a very big aura." Yes, one you cannot ignore easily.

Like you, Grey Kitty, I've been accused of being insensitive, not caring about his feelings. Lately, rather than trying to refute that, I've been agreeing. "Yeah, I'm a real bull in a china shop." That puts a stop to that line of criticism. *)

Yeah, my wife learned that kind of game, and I noticed that her dad does it too. Styles differ, but the result is the same:

Saying something negative/hurtful/invalidating... .

And if questioned, challenged, or faced with the statement that what was just said was hurtful... .

Double down on the invalidation and claim that it didn't happen, or that it is your fault, or that it was nothing, etc.


Like you, I found that arguing/proving a point here never worked. My response instead was to enforce a boundary of not participating anymore, when those tricks were played upon me. They figure out that it ends an interaction with me when they do it, sooner or later, and if they want to keep my company, learn not to go there so much!

One thing I took to doing with my wife, which actually worked sometimes, but may not for you or your H was to say in a calm, almost unemotional voice "f*** you" in response to that kind of thing, and drop it there. The point being that I noticed what you did, I didn't like it, and I'm not going to bother to "prove" anything or debate whether it happened, was justified, was real, etc., etc., etc.

Plausible deniability. Yes, arguing is a waste of time. If not dysregulated, he's very quick on his feet. If dysregulated, I can out-argue him, but it's pointless. He won't hear/remember/care about the point I'm making.

You're right, Grey Kitty, the only worthwhile strategy is to disengage as soon as it starts heading down the road of no return. I'm much better at managing my emotions because I understand more and don't have as much built up resentment as I did even a few months ago.

What I've realized is that he's not trying to be a jerk, he just is at times whe his emotions are out of control. One of my friends came over last night to swim and it became very obvious that he showed no interest in participating in the conversation. After he returned to his studio, she said, "He's not very socialized."

That struck me as so true. He can fake it quite well, but when he doesn't care, he is quite rude, though not seemingly intentionally.

I could pull off the f* you strategy, but lately I've been endeavoring to clean up my language, so perhaps there's a more polite way to do exactly that.

Lately I've been trying to "back up" and look at the big picture.

It seems that many of us (nons) see a conversation as a time to communicate and get information.

It seems that many of "them" see it as a competition, some sort of zero sum game that can be won or lost.

Big picture questions:

Is this the "point" of the conversation, is this a long held habit or style, or does this reflect something deeper?

Is there a healthy way to say to them "I'm interested in communicating with you, I'm not going to compete with you in a conversation"

FF

Nailed it, FF. So many times when I'm just trying to share my opinion/feelings/some information, he will say, "You win." I'm left wondering What the heck?

But yes, you're right, it appears that he's always calculating that it's a win/lose game. What a miserable way to go through life!

Recently, I've been getting him to repeat things when he does his "low talker" voice while I'm making noise cooking or in the midst of another activity with background noise. Typically he'd say, "It's not important" or "It doesn't matter," which was infuriating to me--like he was punishing me for doing something which made noise instead of stopping what I was in the middle of and giving him my 100% attention. I've been repeating this phrase: "Everything you say is important to me, Honey."

I'm realizing that, rather than "punishing" me for not giving him my full attention, he probably feels so unimportant and judges his communication as non-essential.

Yes, it took me a while to realize this too. I think I always knew though that my motive was to make MY life easier, but of course I always hoped BPDh would realize that there are better ways to deal with rage, frustration and sort of just learn from my example. Didn't happen, of course, so I continued on the path, just hoping it would make my life less stressful. The problem is that with BPD or other PDs is that they thrive off chaos. If I didn't react, he didn't get his drug of choice: drama, and upset, or me begging him to "stay". When I stopped doing those things, he'd ratchet up the drama, or do something really different, like how he recently threw me out of our bedroom, and it's the spare room. It hurt a tiny bit, but I'd bet it actually hurts HIM much worse as he's very into physical touch.

Validating is great if it works for you, or the BPD you are with. For me, it did't work very well at all, as he felt I was being condescending, or he'd just outright would tell me he didn't care if I related to him, or how I felt. How do you deal with that? For me, I just stopped validating, and just tried to never invalidate him.

It's a losing head game, as far as I'm concerned, unless they really want help, this is how they'll be. My plan is to leave, and so I deal with his moods, rage, and weirdness until I can. Like you, I'm sort of detached now. I'm getting along in order to not make things worse, but with the realization that my actions alone can't make up for the bad financial position he's put us in, or the emotional wasteland he's made of our marriage. He doesn't want a connection with me, and I did for so long, but now realize that he's just not capable of it.

Oh, I have to agree that any attempt at calm conversation is met by BPDh as me "lecturing" or trying to "control him". I see it as trying to understand each other, modify to suit each other(usually me him, which was clearly enabling and codependent), and of course we couldn't get anywhere, because he's almost always unable to get through a calm conversation. He just gets angry too fast, and he doesn't really HEAR what I'm saying, he twists it to make it into something opposite, and it's run through the BPD negative filter.

He's been almost fired at work due to his lack of communicating with his employees, so I know it's not just me. Some people are okay with having a partner they can't communicate with, but I've found out that is just not me. I need that at least once in a while, and he won't learn to, so it's yet another strike for me staying with him. I mean, even simple, need to know things don't get communicated to me, and if I want to know things, I have to ask his family. If I can't ask my spouse a simple question, that's not much of a marriage.

I'm going to ask Psychologist the best way to go about this.  My guess is there is a way to work validation into this by saying that they are important and to "gently nudge" them away from "win/lose" thinking.

I will try to come up with some good work tracks and post those later.

FF

I appreciate people who want to clean up their language  lol

My goal is to very briefly, quickly, and without a lot of emotional power convey two things:

1. I noticed that you did something negative to me, and I'm not going to stick around for more of it.

2. I absolutely am not going to discuss or debate with you exactly what it was about it that twigged me.

I would accept an apology at that point. I won't stick around to hear any JADEing, or blame shifting, or judgements that there is something wrong with me for being overly sensitive, etc., etc.

The main point is that conscious and calculating or not, the statement/action was clearly made for that negative impact on me. It may be an unconscious habit. And it is time to change it.


Intentions matter at a time like this.

Sometimes something comes out of my mouth, and it just doesn't seem important enough to repeat, and perhaps I shouldn't have even bothered saying it. So that could be simple and true.

As you said, he thinks so little of himself that he's saying things to put himself down. That's a different thing, and depending on circumstances I can take that in a couple directions.

One--respond at face value. Perhaps not the best, but it at least discourages passive-agressive communication styles.  

Two--validate. Either his feelings of being unimportant, or that you care about what he has to say.  

 |iiii  Realizing that this isn't about you, and you don't have to feel hurt/punished is a huge bit of progress on your part!

I think this is very true, and very good advice. We aren't responsible for their refusal or outright inability to communicate well, and their lack of empathy does prevent connection. I've been the cheeleader for BPDh, always trying to say "good in, good out", or that "what we think we create", and that maybe he can retrain his brain to be more positive. It was a waste of breath. I did it years ago, and thought he could too. I think they get something out of grumbling, so they continue to do it.

I think the idea above about not taking the bait, or setting limits on how much we'll listen to is a good idea. I found the constant putting me down, and utter negativity(mostly just about ME, but it was so constant), to be something I finally decided I just can't take long term. Plus, I think the rages and anger stem from the negative tapes running in his brain. It's not just with me, but mostly with me, and random strangers that tick him off. Being in the car with him is an utter nightmare.

All,

I think a slight rephrase has THE critical nuance.  

"I think they get something from the reactions of those around them out of grumbling, so they continue to do it.

Which is why I think it is critical that we should be very obvious that OUR BEHAVIOR in response to THEIR BEHAVIOR has changed and remains consistent in a "healthy response".

This doesn't make us responsible FOR their behavior but I do think (especially those in marriages) that we are responsible TO our partners for our responses being healthy.

I suspect I will have a conversation like this with my wife (sometime this week), where the concepts of "responsible for" versus "responsible to" are critical.

Thoughts?

FF

I think I always knew though that my motive was to make MY life easier, but of course I always hoped BPDh would realize that there are better ways to deal with rage, frustration and sort of just learn from my example. Didn't happen, of course, so I continued on the path, just hoping it would make my life less stressful. The problem is that with BPD or other PDs is that they thrive off chaos.

Well said, Ceruleanblue! My ex-husband was like yours in that he also ratcheted up the drama--probably due to being co-morbid with ASPD.

With my current husband, validating doesn't always work. I think it's largely due to the fact that I can be rather clumsy and formulaic with it at times. I'm getting better. What really fails is SET. He often will mock my attempts to do that and even take the words right out of my mouth. So I'm left with trying not to invalidate him.

It occurred to me today how often he invalidates me! I showed him a hilarious video on my iPad, after asking if he wanted to see it. He couldn't even bother shifting his eyes away from his iPad for more that a couple of seconds, then paid no further attention to it. Also today I noticed several times when I was speaking, he had no comment and he even walked out of the room when I was mid-sentence. If I had done any of that, there would be hell to pay! At least with him, he isn't aggressively unpleasant, as opposed to my first husband. It's more of the whiny accusatory "You don't care about me" stuff.

Oh, I have to agree that any attempt at calm conversation is met by BPDh as me "lecturing" or trying to "control him".

Yep. I get this too. Sometimes I have to explain how to do something and it's almost like I'm talking to a teenage boy because he gets insulted if I go into too much detail, as if I'm insulting his intelligence. Yet, because he seemingly doesn't pay attention to consequences or learn from his mistakes, he'll do the same dumb thing again. If it doesn't impact me--such as putting a new red T-shirt in with white socks, I let consequences be his teacher, or not. However when he was ready to throw away all his new pink socks, I asked if he had considered washing them separately with bleach.

How does a man live this long and manage to be so utterly clueless?

1. I noticed that you did something negative to me, and I'm not going to stick around for more of it.

2. I absolutely am not going to discuss or debate with you exactly what it was about it that twigged me.

I would accept an apology at that point. I won't stick around to hear any JADEing, or blame shifting, or judgements that there is something wrong with me for being overly sensitive, etc., etc.

The main point is that conscious and calculating or not, the statement/action was clearly made for that negative impact on me. It may be an unconscious habit. And it is time to change it.


Yes. I definitely don't want to expose myself to any more unkind comments. I'm even getting irritated by the obliviousness I described a couple of posts above. He got a shot yesterday and is like a four year old today--"My arm hurts. It's really sore." (I had to ask him if he had considered taking an Advil. Nope.) So that's his excuse to be self-absorbed and grumpy. Tomorrow it will be something else--like the stock market took a dive. And the next day it will be something related to the presidential race. There's no end to the excuses he can come up with for being mopey and self-centered.

It's not like I don't have compassion for his aches, but good grief, I'm the one who had shoulder surgery and who has spent the last eight years of my life doing physical therapy. I don't gripe about my arm, even when it wakes me up in the middle of the night and I can't find a comfortable position to sleep.

OK. Whining over with. You make important points, Grey Kitty. Not sticking around for more and not discussing what triggered me. I've made the mistake of listening way too long and then having to defend why I was upset about something. Not going to do it any more. He can figure it out. Or not.

"I think they get something from the reactions of those around them out of grumbling, so they continue to do it.

Which is why I think it is critical that we should be very obvious that OUR BEHAVIOR in response to THEIR BEHAVIOR has changed and remains consistent in a "healthy response".

This doesn't make us responsible FOR their behavior but I do think (especially those in marriages) that we are responsible TO our partners for our responses being healthy.

I suspect I will have a conversation like this with my wife (sometime this week), where the concepts of "responsible for" versus "responsible to" are critical.


This is an important distinction, FF. To go to behaviorism, not reacting to the grumbling should, over time, and it may take a long long time, extinguish the behavior as long as we're consistent in our response.

I'm finally, after a lifetime of codependency, getting the notion that I'm not "responsible for" someone else's behavior. I do feel "responsible to" others by bringing my best self forward in every moment. Granted, sometimes that "best self" isn't optimal, but I do try. That's the irritating thing about people with personality disorders. It's like they are so overcome by their emotions, they don't give a f* about being their best self. And those of us who live with them get exposed to their ugly behavior regularly, while they are on their best behavior with acquaintances and strangers.   

Hey... .remember... .you are not "responsible for" solving things for him.  You are "responsible to" support him emotionally.

If you want to solve (Oh my goodness!  That must be hard for you.  Would it help if I gave you some advice on how to treat it?)

My preference would be (Oh my!  That must be hard for you.  How can I support you?)

I customized some of this for you Cat, because of your comments about feeling clumsy and formulaic.  I have similar feelings.  It does get better with practice... .and a good psychologist.   :)

But also, there is a truth here.  Your attitude is wanting to help (vice solve).  You are genuinely concerned, so you ask.

Thoughts?
 

FF

PS  Ever had an anthrax vaccine?  Good grief... that makes your arm hurt and looks like there is a baseball stuck in there.

Busted again! Thanks, FF. I don't realize how much I try to solve rather than support. It's like we've got the male/female roles switched in so many facets of this relationship.

Oh my!  That must be hard for you.  How can I support you?

Thanks. Words like that just don't come naturally to me. I'll need a lot of practice!

I've had some nasty vaccinations--not anthrax, thank goodness, so I do understand. But I've never used pain as an excuse to be rude and unkind.

Same for me.  Today, as the P was helping me with my email and conversation practice, it was so incredible to see how she easily simplified things and made them empathetic.

She actually talked for a while about how she is (many times) deliberate about the amount of empathy she expresses to clients and the importance of clarity and gentleness. 

Basically you can see how it is quite a skill to gently and clearly hand somebody and emotion back that they have just projected onto you. 

FF

I'm starting to see the wisdom in approaching him for sex again. I'm over being angry and in the long run, this might just cure the perennial grumpiness.  *) |iiii

Certainly I am writing out sentences you can say... .but I want to stress again that it's not about exactly what you say.  It's about your ability to :

1:  Pause and think about the mindset needed before speaking or acting.

2:  Basically two different mindsets.  1.  Am I going to be there for him, while still being watchful for a boundary incursion... .or... .2.  Are you going to be there for yourself (boundary enforcement), while being mindful that you don't want to overly inflame him.


3.  In either case you want to focus on being you (with some slight nudges) from the rules and knowledge that you have learned on these boards.  Time and time again, I see people on here say (and I used to feel this way) that "I was lost and didn't know who I was"... .because I was operating in "their world".

4.  Bottom line:  Operate in your world, do your best to be a supportive partner and let them solve their own emotional stuff.

Note:  I know that I'm not "there" yet.  But there have been times when I have been "there".  When I could listen to her say horrid stuff and honestly feel for her, yet when I walked away... .I was able to walk away and say "Wow... .sucks to be her... "  Yet there was no "sucks to be me".  I didn't get drug down.

Cat... .I really do feel like that you are poised to make a breakthrough for you.  I hope your hubby comes with you.  Perhaps you look back a time or two to see where he is, but please keep moving forward.

I'm especially impressed with the self-reflection about why you are the way you are.  That helps you identify what will likely be hard... .when you are making a healthy choice that doesn't feel... ."normal".

You are no longer an emotional caretaker... . Perhaps there are other things you can take care of for him... . 

Yeah... .went there... .

FF

That is where consistent boundary enforcement works so well, especially because (in the words of a self-aware pwBPD/NPD, "I'm crazy, I'm not stupid" he will learn and notice.

You can "teach" him pretty easily that these things don't fly with you and you aren't putting up with them. He will figure it out whether he states it or acknowledges it or not. And it is his choice to continue... .or to shift gears.


 |iiii If the two of you are sexually compatible, it certainly does make things better and improve moods!

I hope besides seeing the wisdom of it, you are finding some desire/interest as well.

Sex releases all kinds of brain endorphins. Might help his moods. It will surely help your marriage if you both are willing.

As to desire ,I have read that post menopause- one doesn't always have desire, but the desire can be felt once things are happening. I think emotions drive the desire and when one doesn't feel connected that way, one may not feel desire much. Yet, with sex, your H may feel happier with you, and so then there could be room for the feelings.

While men have a decrease in hormones, I don't think it is as dramatic as menopause for women. Yet people can and do have active physical lives their whole lives. Everyone is different, but I found that a lack of hormones has decreased my interest, so I have to be willing to make this part of marriage happen.

A decrease in desire isn't the problem as much as the partner with BPD seeing it as rejection. I imagine that if a partner understood the physical aspects, he/she may be willing to work with it to keep the loving physical connection. But a pw BPD who feels rejected might just reject in return or withdraw for self protection. I don't think anyone should be forced to have sex against their will but without outright desire- willingness is enough to try. So as the Nike commercial says- "Just do it" and desire and connection might follow.

Ironically, now that I realize that I've gotten past my resentment and am in a mindspace where I can actually appreciate all the wonderful things about my husband, I got the worst cold I've had in years.

He's leaving for a Buddhist retreat on Sunday and we haven't as much as hugged, just so that I wouldn't give him my cold.

I'll have a week on my own to contemplate all this. Thanks everyone for all the great comments.