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Pastor (his name),

I had not read FF wifes's document when I responded that I understood your instructions about using biblical conference table.  My assumption is (please clarify) that you had read both documents before you sent your instructions.

I am disappointed, hurt and deeply troubled that FF wife’s presumption of my affairs with women and dishonesty was not addressed.  I’m trying my best to hold my thoughts on the omission in a tentative fashion until I hear back from you in writing.

I believe that it would be wise to consider a pause in our current counseling plan to evaluate the accusations that are present again in our marriage.  It appears to me, that there have been repeated expressions of pain and suffering from FF wife due to a presumption of infidelity and dishonesty.  I believe that the best way to honor our marriage and to address the suffering that ff wife seems to be experiencing is to focus on what is obviously a fundamental core issue of our marriage.   

My understanding is that we are all in agreement that I am responsible for clarifying all issues in our marriage.  It is in that spirit that I send this communication.  I have prayerfully considered this issue since I read FF wifes’s homework submission.  Honestly, I don’t have any peace regarding our current direction of counseling or a way forward.  Yet another reason to consider a pause and discuss the best way forward and to memorialize any potential agreement on the way forward in writing.

Sincerely,

FF

Had my weekly visit with Psychologist today.  My first draft was about twice this long.  This is draft two that I just sent to P.  We have an additional session set up tomorrow to go over this and clarify what I am willing to participate in as a way forward. (with regards to biblical counseling)

My goal is not to "blow it up", but my impression is that the guy has bee fiddling with things on the edge and then saying... "there... .isn't it all better now".  My previous attempts to gain clarity on a counseling plan (how he see's us getting to healthy) have been met with "trust me" and things like that. 

I'm interested in any comments.  Specifically would like help with questions I should ask P tomorrow.  What do I need to consider.

My wife trusts the biblical marriage counselor.  The MC has no idea what he is dealing with.  His intentions do seem good.

What if this is successful and my wife agrees to focus on her "presumptions".  This guy is not really equipped to deal with it.  Is it better to bring this stuff out or to keep fiddling at the edges of the relationship?

FF

I have a couple of thoughts before you mail this out - or you may decide not to. Sometimes it helps to write your thoughts out even if you don't mail them.

Being accused of cheating is aggravating-but it is part of the picture of BPD. I also think these fears are a part of her. They just happen to land on something that she thinks confirms them. If it wasn't the e mail with the co worker- it may have been something else. Getting to the root of them with the BC may not help in the grand scheme of things. Having your password won't help. Because the trust issue is not about you- it's a part of her.

Yet something is helping - I think you are managing things better. Although I expected MC to be a team effort - I found that whatever work I did helped me most and also the relationship. I also went to the only MC my H liked. Sometimes I thought she focused more on me and gave him a pass. But because of this he felt safe to go and that made a difference. The value in this BC may not be in his skill with BPD but her willingness to go to a MC she feels safe with.

Like you I did extra work - 12 step groups - a sponsor. Your P may be more effective for you. But the combination of the P and BC may work for you both. I don't think you should share your password- and that needs to be brought up. But before you take the wheel of the BC - consider that he doesn't have to do the whole job of helping to be of benefit.

I agree, this has been good for her and progress has been made.  I have no intention to "blow up" the counseling.

There is an intention to clarify, in writing, his methodology and plan.  Months ago we both submitted a list of issues we would like to work on.  I have tried to clarify this verbally a time or two, but was admonished for being selfish when I asked the question when we would focus on issues I submitted.  To date we have focused on or discussed ZERO of them.

What I can gather from his evasive answers is that until ALL of my wife's concerns are handled to his and her satisfaction NONE of mine will even be discussed.

While I haven't raised this exact issue in this email, as part of clarifying what I we are doing in the counseling room, I hope to have that addressed in writing.

One of the odd dynamics that is going on is that when I have brought up things the counselor has said or advised, he has admonished me for taking things out of context or flat out denied saying them.  Then, a few weeks later he admonished me for lack of clarity and I agreed with him that I needed to "lead" on clarity and that I would happily take on that role and that I would memorialize our conversations and agreements in writing.  He and my wife both happily agreed. 

When I stuck with the agreement, they are both openly and clearly dismayed at my insistence on following through with this.

While there has been good going on here, there is a lot I don't like and when I have brought it up I've been dismissed for having reservations. 

I either need to get a clear understanding of what we are doing or accept that I won't get it and just "play along" regardless of what is said.

Anyone tell I am frustrated... .?

FF

  FF,

Trust in marriage is extremely vital for your marriage to thrive. Trust is also the most important thing that makes pursuing any relationship worthwhile.
Without trust, a healthy marriage or relationship can not exist.

Without complete trust, it’s impossible for married couples to have a “real” marriage or relationship. By “real” relationship, I mean a healthy one, loving and devoted one.
Most trust issues in marriages are caused by extra-marital sex, lying, cheating, emotional affairs, constant contact with an ex etc.The lack respect, honour or trust issues in marriage certainly plays a big role in many unhappy and unhealthy marriages.  

One of the Old Testament words for trust (batach) has a meaning of "careless." Think about it: When you trust your spouse, you feel so safe that you are careless—or free of concern—with him or her. You don't have to hide who you are or be self-protective.

What does that mean for you as a couple? It means checking with your spouse on how you affect him or her. Ask your wife with biblical counselor, "In what ways have I not been trustworthy?" For example, perhaps she thinks emotional affairs. This erodes trust and shows you can't be trusted with more vulnerable parts of the heart. Or maybe you have not delivered on your promises. Asking your spouse for honest input will reveal areas that you may need to work on to build trust in your marriage.

Your wife and biblical counselor are held responsible  in this, as you are willing to maintain relationship, marriage, help with children, go to counseling and learn tools and using biblical conference table. You have been trying to address things , they now need to listen to your hurt at moment.  If she feels distrust have her say why, then you both can address without as you said skirting issue.

Many men or women think it is OK to flirt, have emotional affairs, get close to ones of another sex by sharing what you wouldn't in a marriage. It destroys trust, erodes the relationship. If you want to be single and do that by all means. In a relationship both are owed trust, and faith to believe. In your prior post, exchanging accounts leads to trust and helps if there has been a breach, many biblical counselors recommend as you know. It usually saves many marriages when done right.

Problem with your wife is she has not acknowledged perhaps all the time, effort, energy you have put into validating, counseling etc. and the fact that really the exchange of accounts along with privacy is not possible due to her breach of ethics and trust. She did not take the accounts to look and ask, be reassured. She took it upon her self to send from your email, wrecked a friendship and work relationship, then went onto to talk to the other side in a legal battle. Who does that?

You love her, the marriage and the children but after all these years, and counseling she needs to take responsibility for breaking ethics and bounds in a marriage. That is perhaps why she is not given that freedom now. She didn't respect it, or was mature about it. Granted BPD, childlike at times, but her and the counselor have to address and own that.

You are not saying hey locked phone, locked accounts and going off in secret having affairs, at least hope not... .lol You are saying I am here, lets make the marriage work, lets address things, lets go to counseling, etc. You are giving her a gift many women cheated on , hurt or abused or healthy relationships would love. Someone trying to make it work, owning their share, addressing her mental problems with love, and concern, giving trust. To quite frankly have it broken with the emails and lawyers. She now needs to earn that again. If she even can.

Trust isn't given unconditionally. You have to be trustworthy to receive trust. Even Jesus submitted himself to the trust test, teaching people to see if He was really who He claimed: ":)o not believe me unless I do what my Father does" (John 10:37).

Trust and truth go hand in hand. That is why deception of any sort is the biggest trust killer.

"One couple I counseled experienced a crisis of trust that could have torn their marriage apart. The husband flirted with other women: waitresses, co-workers, even their mutual friends. He thought it was harmless until his wife told him how alone and scared it made her feel. He saw how it was affecting her, and he was a changed man"

I think you are putting it where it needs, to let her address why she feels there has been some deception, mistrust or affairs. If she is valid, mistakes made, don't live in past rectify and move forward. If not you are still willing to address, along with the fact hey I am human and trying to lets get this out in open and deal with it. For her sake, yours, the marriage and the kids. Again though she needs to OWN the fact she betrayed trust, even if she felt she had the right. The way was childish, immature, and not a woman of Biblical Character. If she wants to live as a Proverbs woman then go forward and do it. Above Rubies!

This also is a key to rebuilding trust. Without it, it’s like building a brick wall without cement. The goal of rebuilding trust is that at some point there is genuine sorrow on the part of betrayer as well as the person mislead or hurt.

I am only stating biblical references as you stated to Pastor and in that regard. Please use what you can, throw out the rest and be blessed. Hope didn't over step bounds.

LR

Yuck. Presumed guilty without evidence. This guy is way over his head and unable to understand or deal with your wife's paranoia.

I can see why you're frustrated. If I were in your position, I'd be angry. The only strategy I can think of is a quid pro quo. "OK, Sweetheart. We're seeing your guy. Now we need to see my counselor."

I really don't think he's capable of anything beyond a basic bandaid and your relationship needs emergency surgery.

On another note, agree with Cat... .but that is why if you take the approach I wrote it is holding them accountable as well... It will put it all back in their lap to be addressed.

You are willing to listen, address, show you didn't but he ( B counselor) wants to treat her as a Proverbs above Rubies woman. If he can't delve into mental problems or face as many B counselors can't. He can at least see what she did for what it was in relation to requests or accusations now. FF I know you love her, the marriage and the children and she is to you. I am not saying she is not, she is human we all have faults. But truly she had no right to write from you account, wreck a business relationship or chance for job for you, or worse with lawyers.

It will put it back where it belongs while addressing her concerns. If you really were doing all that highly doubt you would be here, learning tools, reading books, going to counseling, helping with marriage and kids. So now you can politely listen, address, make her feel loved and safe as you have.


Then... .see how they are going to address her deceptions, and covertly wrecking things in your life in the name of love... .

I think Notwendy hit the nail on the head.  After reading so much of FF's story, I'm convinced that the BMC is primarily a lifeline to keep her in a "see someone" mode which has value: She needs to seek professional help and this could be the gateway to it.  She seems to have been spending time reflecting on her upbringing and her adult siblings' behavior since seeing the BMC, so maybe the visits are paying dividends.

To FF: But that means don't expect much more out of this BMC.  While it may seem more satisfying to have your issues addressed and perhaps see the heat turned up on your wife to address her role in the dysfunction, it could also push her away.  This happens a lot.  While I don't suggest going along with everything the BMC advises (e.g. surrender your email password), it probably is best to let him drive the direction of the counseling.  You seem to have a good understanding of boundaries, so continue to set and enforce them as needed while working as cooperatively as possible with the BMC.

Yes agree Hopeful Dad it is where she feels secure. It is important to make her feel, safe, secure validated. But reason affair is being brought up is to ask for passwords. So eventually you either agree, get angry or bring up why you are hurt, and may not be possible. Eventually you can only molly coddle someone so long if you want them to see your side as well.

I know BC is easy on her, and she feels good there. That is good, important and keep going.

But truly FF like I said before BMC can only do so much. You can only do so much with validating, trying, working on and being there. Eventually you become permanent counseling couple which is fine if working. Or you see you can only get so far and accept who and what she is.

Though credit where credit is due she is going, trying, and you have seen some improvement. So keep going and sticking to your plan, boundaries, and validating.

When all is said and done counseling and love can only do so much when one sided. I would think BPD or not giving love, boundaries and a healthy hey I am hurt as well, should work for both.

There is wisdom in considering "what if" this causes her to bolt.

There is wisdom in considering what to do with success.  She says "fine BC can ask my anything he wants about my family, history... .any of that".  Do I really want the MC trying to sort out both sides of her family tree with granddads (to my wife) that were womanizers, drinkers... .really toxic people? 

I do understand where this likely comes from.  "this" being my wife's attitudes to men, that they are scum. 

I've also gone into this counseling with the attitude of "I don't agree with it, it is not what I would choose for my wife, but I need to respect her choices and play by those rules (vice trying to short circuit them).

So far, it's pretty much worked out, even when I thought it would implode things.

For instance, remember the CPS incident years ago that I recorded.   I recorded the beating she gave our kids.  Anyway, the wise advice on here is not to play recordings for pwBPD.  My wife maintained (before the recording) that she spanked them only when calm and composed and that she was a blameless person in this instance.

If you remember, we ended up listening to it.  My wife repented, said it was bad parenting and actually (in writing and in person) seemed genuinely remorseful for that. 

We all understand that the "negative energy" likely just went somewhere else.  And a month or so later she wanted to argue about what was on the CPS papers.  I chose not to argue but suggested a copy of the paper be attained to clarify things.  She chose not to obtain the actual paperwork.

So, I say this to clarify that it is possible that this email could be productive.  It's not a slam dunk that it would derail things.

Please keep the comments and concerns coming.  I want to have as many angles to examine as possible with P tomorrow.  My goal is to leave the session with a strategy that I feel comfortable with. 

Honestly, I could see myself being comfortable with dropping the matter or pursuing it by sending the email. 

Remember, this P has seen her in action... .for several hours.  This P seems to have a good idea of how my wife processes things.  It's very much a control thing. 

For instance, do you guys remember the picture of a naked woman that my wife sent me (years ago)?  Yep... same wife that accuses me of inappropriate r/s with woman... sends me pics of one... .nakey pics.

The critical thing is that my wife was in control of what she was exposing me to.  That likely made it ok (in her mind).

I can see that as a possibility.

Anyway... .thanks and keep it coming.

FF

I had a discussion about my husband's 'trust issues' with my pastor a while ago. Pastor asked if there was any basis for husband's trust issues with me, and I said no there aren't. He didn't have a response to that; I think he was probably confused. (people tend to be confused when they enter into our marital world, unless they understand what is happening) Right now, I'm just letting them be confused; at least the pastor now thinks that maybe this is above his pay grade and that I need professional help. (I've been getting outside help for over a year now)

My husband has an alternate reality version of what our history is and doesn't trust me because he finally heard the truth that I had been saying for a long time. I'm not going to tell anyone except licensed mental health professionals that one.

My husband is also doing a Celebrate Recovery group which he actually likes because he can be vulnerable and open. I'm trying not to invalidate his experience even though it is keeping him stuck relationally because it isn't addressing his issues.

FF, I'm gonna be blunt, and it might come off a little harsh.  I totally empathize with you in that the constant, recurring accusations of infidelity by your wife are very hurtful.  Honestly, call it whatever you want - paranoia, BPD, NPD, etc., there is a part of her that knows there isn't a shred of proof or basis for the accusations.  The fact that she continues to do it shows one thing - she's angry and she's trying to hurt you by throwing out baseless accusations.  It's just mud slinging in the hope it sticks.

Infidelity is a horrible betrayal.  My uPDxw cheated on me with her best friend's husband.  It was a betrayal of me, our son as it compromised the security of his life, and a betrayal of both our extended families.  It should never be taken lightly in any way.  The MC not stopping immediately to address it and vet it out is allowing your wife to continue to use this tactic to hurt you.  To rephrase, he's becoming her useful idiot and is enabling her to continue doing it.  He's becoming complicit in her attacks.

You are justified in being angry about this.  You are justified in confronting this guy.  You are justified in confronting your wife about it.  And you're justified in being a bit more blunt about it.  I see no reason to say more then asking him why he allows her to get away with hurting you by baselessly accusing you of cheating?  And why he instead acts in a way that enables her to continue doing so?  Then telling him nothing entitles a person to treat another in that matter, and you are not obligated to have to stand there and take such abuse.  Even if she really is truly mentally ill, that still does not justify any obligation for you to have to take that kind of abuse.  If he can't figure out he needs to redirect the session to address something like that once it's thrown out there, and instead he's only going to continue to allow her to use MC as a venue to abuse you, you're justified in bowing out.

In the end, despite all the counseling and whatever ways we can define and articulate all the crappy dynamics we end up dealing with, the only thing that really matters are actions and behaviors.  If she is going to behave like that, and the MC is going to behave like that, the best way to show you won't tolerate it is demonstrate that by your behavior and refusing to be in a position again where they can continue to do this to you.

FF, I see this email as something written out of frustration, and trying to "force" the BC to do things correctly.  As I see things, you have 2 choices:

1.  Push and either cause him to drop you, or you drop him as BC.  You do not see another MC as your wife will blame you for sabotaging the one that she chose.
2.  Continue with BC, and "let go."  He talks about what he wants to talk about.  It will certainly make him happier, and your wife may continue to show some growth attending MC with him.  On your end, you keep the peace, be careful not to agree to things that are harmful to you (like giving her your email password), and see if you can learn something in this.  As the saying goes, even a broken clock is right twice a day.

I just don't see the gain from #1 above, other than it removes you from a frustrating situation.  I think, though, that your wife's likely regression will outweigh any peace you gain from not going to the BC.  #2, while personally frustrating, does seem to give you some benefit as you wife does listen to BC.

Also, wasn't it 2 weeks ago that you said that your wife "lost" all of the discussions in the meeting?  I am not sure why you are saying that he is just focusing on you since your wife has had some very uncomfortable time spent in the marriage counseling.

I am saying this, because several months ago we were each asked to provide a list of concerns that we would like to work on in MC.

To date, we have worked on zero of mine.  I have brought this up a time or two and was admonished for "being selfish" and "thinking only of myself".  I asked if it was possible that I brought this up with the intention of healing a marriage for both of us, and that my mindset was as the leader of the household (what he was teaching) vice "just being out for me" and his answers were evasive.

Yes there have been several sessions that were absolutely bruising for my wife.  Those were times when he addressed her actions and words, many times ones that she brought up in session. 

Part of his evasive answers have seemed to indicate that NONE of the issues on my list will be addressed until ALL of my wife's issues have been addressed to his and her satisfaction.

Her having my email password is on "her list".  There is zero chance... .zero chance... .she will get it.

Yes... .there is frustration here.  My P was pretty strong about wanting me to own and share my feelings about this.

FF

I agree that while you have the "right" to have your concerns aired, to have the BC hold her feet to the fire, the other side is to sabotage the only MC relationship she agreed to.

I felt in a similar way. Our MC seemed to favor my H, and work on me harder. I also felt anger and resentment. Yet, my H had previously refused MC in the past and I didn't want to ruin what I thought was my only chance at this. Yet because she worked harder on me, I gained that benefit of personal growth. Over time, we made progress- perhaps slower because it felt one sided, but as I grew, there was still positive change in the relationship. Because of my own growth, it helped my other relationships too- with my mother, with my kids, and more.

Your BC may be wiser than you know. I think my MC sensed that if she pushed too hard with my H, he would have quit. I think she was right on that. Since I was the one who wanted the counseling, and my H was hesitant, she knew I would stay if she pushed it. I think a lot of the early sessions were her forming a safe bond with him- and once that was achieved, she began to push gently with him too.

While you are "right" about your concerns, sometimes "being right" isn't the best path. Maybe the best path is to let her accusations come out- in therapy- until they seem so outrageous the BC starts to figure out that something is off. Maybe if you state in therapy that you don't want to give her your password and she dysregulates in front of him. Your BC may not know all about her yet, but as he gets to know her better, he will likely learn more.

I understand your frustrations, but the question is- is it better to watch and wait- let things go with him at the wheel, or take it.

If your wife is paranoid, and thinks the BC is on "your side" - that might be the end of the therapy for her.

All good concerns.  I am considering them.

Some nuances.  This MC is my wife's idea.  We have been to numerous counselors. 

I'm also deliberate to not "demand" a course of action, other than to pause and be clear on the course of action that my wife and the MC are suggesting we take.

They still have hand on wheel. 

Keep comments coming.

FF

Being accuse of infidelity is aggravating. I've been there, despite no evidence of it. Just being human was enough. I've seen the look on my H's face when a Victoria Secret commercial comes on. But that isn't infidelity. He's a man, and he has eyes. He has no relationship with the models on TV. Yet, if thought a movie star on TV was handsome - that became " you want him more than me". No, I don't. The movie star is an illusion. I want my marriage.

This used to upset me and I would JADE. The key for me to reduce these accusations was to have my own strong boundaries and be firm in the knowledge that I didn't cheat. I stopped reacting to them, and they have diminished- because I didn't add to the drama. Defense raises suspicion. If there is nothing to defend, then there isn't any reason to defend it.

I see the point about defense.

Honestly, I don't believe I am doing that.

I see myself asking a process question (and perhaps the answer is that the MC did not read the document, I allowed for that) of why we are letting obvious sin go unaddressed.

The Bible speaks strongly about false allegations and the Bible speaks clearly about infidelity.

More later

FF

Those 10 big rules are clear about infidelity and bearing false witness. But I think they are first meant as a means of judging ourselves. Judgment of others includes context and there is a higher judge than us. Also, even in Biblical days, there were courts of law and judges.

I think we are all created with unique weaknesses, skills and then our own challenges. A person who has material security may not be tempted to steal. Someone with no money and a hungry family may be tempted, might even do it. There is a law about stealing, but the judgment is considered in context.

If someone has BPD, feelings are fact. Paranoia is believing something that isn't real - is real. While it isn't right to be falsely accused of cheating, it may be that to your wife, her fears and suspicions don't seem false at all. They may feel completely real to her. In this context, she isn't deliberately accusing your falsely.

Her thinking is a part of her. Perhaps there is a way to manage these fears between you, a way to address them without thinking it is about you. Using a law will "prove" her wrong, but it may not help her.

You have mentioned that your wife has started making comments on her toxic childhood and her adult siblings' behavior.  Did she start focusing on her FOO since the BMC sessions began or before?  If the former, then I think you're seeing the direct benefits of seeing this BMC.  Upon more introspection, she may finally seek help for herself.


Between this quote and your other posts on how you are frustrated that your issues have not been addressed one iota, it indicates that you truly are expecting to get something more out of MC than it just being a gateway to your wife seeking further help.  On this note... .

... .I suggest giving up on this desire.  It has been said countless times in these forums that MC really doesn't help fix marriages in which one or both partners suffer a PD.  You trying to steer MC in a direction more to your liking and satisfaction is just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.  Until your wife starts fixing the hole in the hull by seeking professional help, you're marriage is taking on water no matter what else you do.

If it really does matter to you to steer things more in a favorable direction, you might be more successful doing so by by staying his course (key caveat: without violating your own boundaries like giving up your passwords).  While he has spent a lot of time with you both, he is still making judgments and observations.  One of them may be "FF is combative.  He probably is combative at home, too." whether or not that's actually true.  That perception could undermine any hope you have towards things changing course.  Going along with his plans with minimal questioning will more than likely turn the focus towards your wife because then she'll be the more combative spouse (in his mind).

Great session with Psychologist today, covering some very difficult topics.

An email (of some sort) will be sent.  I'm working on draft three. 

Big picture focus. 

1.  Something unhealthy just happened.  It has been a repetitive, unaddressed pattern since 2009.  I need to have a healthy (non-combative) response to that that expresses my desire to acknowledge and support my wife in working through something obviously painful and obviously not understood.

More later.

FF

FF,
That is awesome you have the support to help you in expressing yourself.

Reading more it does seem your wife has many issues that BMC is trying to address. So as a healthy non wading through it all, guess best to put your issues to the side right now.

 If there is a way to have them understand why no passwords now, due to her not handling in adult fashion fine. If not maybe see what is best for long run outcome for you both in trust.  Comes down to not important battles, to win the war of your marriage intact and healthy eventually. Good job.



I am glad you are able to see something unaddressed and hurting your wife. Acknowledgement, support, respect, caring while helping her work through it will be the key to love and the success of your marriage. Sounds like a good plan, getting even better. It is wonderful to see the transformation taking place over a period of time with you both.

I am happy for her that she feels safe to express her hurts, needs, and core sorrows. Doing the inner work, is not easy but she is to be commended. Hopefully it will reap many benefits for herself, you, your marriage and partnership in raising your children.

I never think holding someones feet to fire is good idea, you win on paper not in hearts. Hearts, love, trust, kindness that is what matters at the end of the day, in whether a relationship lasts, whether children in situation are raised in healthy ways to continue that on in future for themselves. Modeling good behavior as you know will reap generations of benefits.

 It will be nice once some more of hers are addressed and she feels safe, maybe then yours can be approached. In healing and helping though I would kindly suggest perhaps making it known that if you have a legal battle or work opportunities that respect has to be in place to not hurt. As it hurts the whole family not just one. That is just a thought. You have guidance, professionals in place, counseling and lawyers so they know best how to suggest perhaps if needed.

Thanks for sharing.

I don't know if he would accept this idea, or if you've broached the subject with him, but you might want to ask him for a confidential one-on-one meeting. Yes, I get that he's in the camp of "one flesh" but with mental illness, I would think even the strictest fundamentalist who had some minimal education about human behavior would realize that accommodations need to be made for behavior that deviates from the norm.

If I were in your shoes, I would flat out tell him that, based upon her behavior before a clinical psychologist, your wife has been diagnosed as having a paranoid personality disorder in addition to other co-morbid aspects.

I think he needs to get the big picture and from what you're describing, I don't think he's got it yet.

Yes, I can understand how important it is to build trust so that she feels safe in a counseling environment, but without an overarching perspective of your relationship, he's flying blind.

Draft 3. 

Draft 1 was not published here.  Draft 2 is what you saw.  Three is after my session today.

Big points.  I need to be obviously about taking lead, without being demanding.  It's not about me, it's about my wife's pain and my desire to serve and heal.  That is a Christlike response.

If you remember, my Psychologist is devout Christian.  A very good mix, IMO.

She also, like many of you, reminded me that I want to keep BMC on my side... .or at least not antagonize him.  And to realize that he is cludo about what he is dealing with and how to "properly" address it.

Draft 3 below.  Please hit hard with comments and ideas. 

And email will be sent.  I will not stay silent.  I am open to comments and opinions about that... .so don't hold back.

My goal is to find on the "good, better, best" scale... .hopefully the best (healthiest) way to start addressing this.

Anyone have a better suggestion that using the word "perplexing"?



Pastor (his name),

I had not read FF wifes's document when I responded that I understood your instructions about using biblical conference table.   Since reading FF wife’s document I have been prayerfully considering my response to clarify the situation and lead in my marriage.

I am puzzled by the absence of any mention of FF wifes’s presumption of my affairs with women and her seeming persistent belief that I am a fundamentally dishonest person in your email.  Although this was not addressed in your email, I hope this can be a topic we spend significant time on in our next session.

FF wife seems to have been crying out in pain, over this issue, many times in the past several years, and I cannot see how I am serving her well as a christian husband if I am not part of understanding and healing this pain in an immediate manner. 

Can we consider pause in our current counseling plan to address FF wife’s cries of pain?  This has come up repeatedly since 2009 and I honestly believe it is a block to us moving forward.
 
Several days prior to the allegations FF wife and I had a significant and healing conversation pertaining to the movie "American Sniper".  I believed,and FF wife expressed verbally, that the conversation was healing and brought us closer.  This makes the return of accusations all the more perplexing and reinforces my belief in the immense pain FF wife is experiencing.


Sincerely,

FF

If you want to look at the impact of PTSD on a marriage, American Sniper does it well.  I swear that I have said the exact same things.

So,  imagine that r/s but the wife also has traits of PTSD.

FF

I would do this as well. . . . Has the clinical psychologist recommended that you not do this? Does she believe he will come to understand in his own time and that it is important to let that time come when it will?

This particular "brand" of Biblical Counseling is "anti-mental health treatment".  Psychiatry and Psychologists are generally bad.  If people just pray and get right with God... .

FF

Oh, I think I remember you mentioning, some months ago, a like-minded biblical counselor (though maybe he was also a licensed mental health provider) who cites on his website one case he had during his career of a literal freeing of a person from the illness of personality disorder using these biblical methods.

And I think you were at that time holding out hope for a similar, though understandably rare, result with your wife. That makes sense to me.

I'm glad you are firm in not giving your passwords to a spouse who cannot help but cause difficulties for people who interact with you.

Man, if you're getting your sleep these days and you no longer have to worry about your wife damaging your business relations, then I think you're on a great upward path.

 
https://youtu.be/er4tJ24FSLI

Certainly this would be nice, I think it unlikely.  If the MC is ready to acknowledge and focus on this, then perhaps.

This lady already had the label and was there to work on that.

If you deny something is an issue... .not much will come of it.

FF

FF, I would recommend that your email to the B.C. emphasize ongoing pain on both sides -that 1) Your wife experiences pain in her persistent belief that you engage in emotional and perhaps physical affairs, and 2) that you experience the pain of unfounded and unjust accusations of infidelity, when you have in actuality been a faithful spouse for so many years. And... .the result of this pain has been ongoing violations of boundaries resulting in lack of trust on both sides.

This is what was sent... .and what was received.

Thoughts?

FF

Regarding your BMC's response:

#1 is good.  Mirroring back her words and concerns shows you are listening to her.

#2 is where you really need to apply some of the tools learned here.  Instead of cross-examination of the alleged facts (e.g. you have emotional affairs behind her back), practice S.E.T.  Avoid lawyering her at all costs, else she'll dig in her heels.  Even if after S.E.T. she still believes her set of facts, just make a note of it in your writeup.  Don't press the issue and instead save it for discussion with the BMC.

#3 is good as long as there is sin.  Don't apologize for doing nothing just to make her feel better.

#4 can have a wide interpretation.  Is keeping your email password private a "needless behavior tendency" in his eyes?  Anyway, once you have a handle on what her concerns really are regarding trusting you, spend time self-reflecting and see if indeed there areas in which you can improve.

Sounds like if you do his homework here, you'll get to address these things in the next session.  Not bad.

Pretty much went as per HopefulDad's suggestion:

1.  Listened and mirrored.  She went on tagents about random stories but came back to "you have a track record of getting emotionally involved with other women".  She confirmed I had it right.  Went to number 2.

2.  We clarified that there are no facts in dispute, that it is all a matter of opinion.  She agreed.

3.  I asked her if there was anything for me to confess or repent of.  She rattled on about "it's all been talked about with previous biblical counselors (colleagues of the guy we are at now... years ago)"  I gently redirected a couple times about an answer and also said I was fine going on with out an answer.  Gave long pause.  Went to number 4. 

4.  I asked her if there was needless stuff.  She seemed to scrunch up and get weird, said she would be back in minute.  Left room.  She apparently said something to a kid... hard to tell.  She came back.  I waited for a few minutes.  She still looked weird.  Given previous dance of trying to nail her down... .I was not going to follow up. 

I said I'll go write this up for submission and I thanked her for her time.  As I was leaving the room she started hollering at me.  ":)id I answer?"  My  response "nope". 

I left room and she stayed in bedroom (where we met) and ranted for a while.  Opened the door so I could hear "some leader you are" (same as last rant a few months ago).

I didn't react.  A few minutes later she breezes in the room and starts prattling on about unconfessed sin.  I said calmly "I consider the conversation closed, the drive by conversation style doesn't work for me"

She storms around room some and starts saying that "You are upset and angry that I had the gall to bring it up"

I stood to leave room, heading towards our bedroom.  I said "FF wife, since you are not God and you don't know my heart, it is a sin for you to tell me my emotions.  Please stop it.  Stop telling me my emotions"

She says she didn't do that.  I said "Stop it" a few more times as I walked to bedroom as she got louder and louder yammering on behind me. 

I shut and locked the door.  She stood outside saying something about my Dad and the van... .some rant.  Luckily most was unintelligible. 

I finally had enough of listening to it through the door and said "Please stop yelling at me through the door"

In a mocking tone she said "gladly honey, let me know when you are feeling better"  She went out the front door, into car.  VAAAAAROOM away from the house she went.

I have a bit of a "whatever" attitude.  I have another psychologist appointment tomorrow morning.

Interesting evening.

FF

The previous biblical counselors wrote down that

"Based on how hard FF wife pressed on the affair thing, they "thought" that I must have had an affair.  However, despite repeatedly pressing FF wife for evidence, none was produced.

My wife is inferring that I "admitted" to an affair in counseling with them.  If such had happened... .they would have put it in their notes.

These same biblical counselors used the term "paranoia" when describing her behavior.

So... .their write-up will come up again... .I guess.  I'm not sending anything else until after my P appointment.

Sigh... .

FF

FF, is she safe to drive in that condition?

I would not recommend it... .

My answer is no... .but not sure if I am entirely objective. 

FF

Does she have any children with her?

No

I'm relieved and glad that you have a P who understands what is going on. 

Lack of trust is the issue my husband too, and it comes with craziness in different areas. They have to come up with a reason for their emotions - so that they can make sense of it.

So be sure to write down to what she is referring to in #3 and #4 since you know the history (that you mentioned in the follow-on post).  Gives you some good stuff to discuss in your next BMC session.


This is something that I suggest handling a bit differently.  Telling her that she sinned only amps up her emotions and gets her defensive, which you saw when she denied doing so.  Instead of interpreting her behavior as sinful or not, make a note of these instances and in your next BMC session, ask him in front of her, "She continued to tell me my emotions, which I believe God would find sinful.  Do you agree?" And let the BMC tell her that it's sinful.  If this is a repeat performance, maybe he'll even say something like, "FF wife, we've talked about this before, yet you continue to do so.  Why is that?"


This is better... .focusing on behavior.  "Stop yelling" is a lot more black and white than "Stop telling me my emotions".

Anyway, it looks like you have some good material to cover in your next session.

I agree about handling the emotion thing differently... .however.

Note for all reading this (many techniques below are NOT the way bpdfamily and many mental health providers recommend dealing with this kind of thing)

We are using and I have agreed to use BMC for our marriage issues.  The Bible is clear about confronting sin.  This is a well worn path.  BMC has clarified and we both agree that we don't know each others emotions, thoughts and motivations.

The quick version is to confront, listen for repentance, if there is repentance then there is healing, if there is no repentance then it is no longer my job to convince her of her sin.  It's the Holy Spirits job.

While I had no idea it would come to that, my understanding of his statement that "I have the skills... ." would be appropriately interpreted as "Use what I have taught you... "

Had I devolved into a "yes you did sin" " no I didn't", then I believe I would have been outside his teaching.

Certainly he will have a chance to clarify his instructions and teaching. 

Yes, there will be a lot to talk about. 

If it comes down to it, I have the entire exchange recorded.  I'm certainly not going to offer that in the early stages.

FF

She is still pretty off this morning.

We tried and failed to have bible study as a family.  She was mocking, I asked her to speak in private, pretty typical BPD stuff.

Twisting and all that.

I refused to go more than 1 circle in any of her silliness.  

Staying away from her while I sort this out.

Unfortunately, this morning stuff she kept opening the bedroom door, IMO, so the kids could hear.  Then she would walk around the house ranting so they could hear.  She was ranting about me staying calm... .yet... .I was calm and she was ranting.

Uggg... .I hate this stuff.

FF

FF, this is the mental illness.


I don't know if this is anything that can be controlled on your part- the inability to handle uncomfortable emotions. While I think that the methods you are using can reduce your part in the drama, this aspect of your wife is a part of BPD. I think you hope to suppress it, diminish it, but I have observed this as possibly making things worse.

From observing my mother ( who I think is more affected than your wife, but seems to have a similar tendency to think of herself as victimized by us through real and/or imaginary ways we have wronged her)- that when she gets in that space, she is dysregulated and absolutely convinced we have done something wrong. These strong emotions seem to take over her sense of reasoning at the moment. She seems to have little sense of control of what she says. But feelings don't last- and when the moment is over ( it may take a while) , she is then at a point where she can reason. Sometimes I think she even feels embarrassed or remorseful afterwards, but to admit this would trigger shame. So instead, she acts nice again, attempts to reset things to good.

Looking at this through the rules of the Bible, I see her as basically ethical in the grand scheme of things. Even when upset, she doesn't rob banks, physically harm people ( thank goodness) but she's done numerous things that one could call "sin". But is it "sin" if someone is mentally ill? Personally, I don't like to see her through this perspective. There is a higher judge than me, and that judge made her as she is. Trying to get her to "repent" to me would lead to another dysregulation from shame. It would hurt her. What business do I have trying to judge her through eternal eyes?

To me, considering the mental illness, I have to look at some of the behaviors in a different way. Once dysregulations start, it seems they need to run their course. A main concern is to keep the person safe from harming themselves or others, and in the case of verbal output, this means protecting kids from verbal abuse. As to me, what she says is more about describing how she feels in the moment than an insult to me.

As to this "affair" that your wife brought up. Even if it is complete illusion, something about it is bothering her and it is unfinished business with her. Your response is that, since you didn't do it, you should not be accused of it. This is not your sin. Yes, that is true, but the BC is trying to bring this out- maybe just to hear what is going on with your wife, so perhaps he can get to her feelings about it. Maybe it would have been better for her to say " it felt to me like an affair" but if feelings are facts to her, she isn't going to word it that way.

Perhaps if you can step away from the sin model to letting her speak of her feelings with the BC, it may shed some light on the issue for her. Maybe if things were difficult in the marriage, she was jealous that it was easier for you to communicate with your coworker than with her. Maybe she felt you were spending so much time at work that you liked it better.

Maybe your email exchanged triggered feelings in your wife that your relationship with her was as relaxed as with your co-worker. It isn't cheating but somehow maybe it felt that way to her. Perhaps the BC is trying to get into these feelings. Maybe there are things to apologize for- not cheating, but perhaps not being as attentive.

I agree with all of that... .and will recommend that.  But I am not going to agree to behave one manner in counseling and then do another. 

I think that would further confuse the BC. 

I don't think I would be able to live the life of blowing off BC and doing it my way.  I think he would figure it out and that it would push my wife further into a whacky world.

Definitely will discuss this today with P.

FF

Snipped segments... .


You acknowledge that the BMC method and the mental health community are at odds on how to deal with this, so while I don't suggest going completely off script from your BMC's teachings, I do suggest making a minor tweak in how you "confront sin".  I suggest this because the BMC method actually did devolve into "yes you did sin" "no I didn't" right off the bat, but at least you were smart enough to disengage immediately.

Rather than tell her "you sinned", I suggest saying something like, "We've talked about this with the BMC before and I think this telling me my emotions might fall under 'sinning' in God's view.  Would you agree?"  That way you give her a chance to decouple the facts (telling you your emotions) and judgment (she sinned).  First focus on the facts, hopefully getting her to acknowledge that she indeed did tell you your emotions.  If she does that, but then denies sinning or doesn't think it falls under being sinful, then simply say, "Well, I think this is something we can discuss in our next BMC session."

Always remember that the bottom line is you are trying to save your marriage.  The BMC is a means to that end and I do think he has value in keeping her engaged with a 3rd party because that's what she will need long term.  But if you follow his instructions to the letter, you could be making things worse, self-sabotaging that bottom line.

And let's not kid ourselves: You already don't follow his instructions to the letter.  You routinely challenge him.  For example, he could tell you tomorrow that you should be sharing your email password and you would say no dice.  And you make these decisions knowing what he doesn't know.  I suggest continuing that path and making further tweaks as needed.

Correct!  I should have clarified that I will follow his methods vice directives.  He has generally been pretty good about giving us structure vice "give your wife a $100 bill " type of direction.

And... .yes... .I resist direction, especially that which I know to be harmful.

Good session with P... .working through that now.

FF

FF, I've read some of your past posts and you seem like a person who places high value on logic and reason. It sounds like you would like vindication from her unfounded accusations. Understandably so.

While I certainly understand the need to remain calm during her episodes, I think that you may be approaching it so rationally that it is sort of shooting yourself in the foot so to speak. Because your responses are so devoid of emotion, it's almost an invitation to ramp it up in order to elicit some sort of emotional response to her out of control emotions. I don't have BPD, and I would find your responses invalidating and upsetting. I wouldn't feel safe knowing my feelings would be examined for factual accuracy. Ask yourself is it more important to be right or to preserve the relationship?

In the moment she has all the logic and reason of a 3 year old whose cookie is broken in half. You can choose to ignore the 3 year old and walk away or you can choose to reflect that the child feels sad and offer a hug or something to help the child through these unreasonable emotions. Attempting to apply logic with a child who developmentally is pre-logic or a dysregulated BPD is an exercise in futility.

I'm a newbie and don't have all the answers. I can't help but wonder how she would respond if you expressed empathy first and saved the logic for calm moments. You seem like a very patient man, how can you make that work to your advantage while remaining true to who you are?

There is a certain level of dysfunction at which I would rather not preserve the relationship, that's one of the reasons I'm on deciding.

My goal is to preserve it, but... .definitely not at all costs.

I do understand what you say and yes, logic and reason are huge with me.

FF

She isn't logical though - she is who she is.

Can she be herself with you?

I am a little bit of both. I can be logical, but I believe emotions are important too.

My mother is illogical and mostly emotional. Yet, when someone listens to her, really hears her, she just melts. I think she craves this. Your wife might too.

I wonder what allowing her emotions to have some space ( I agree not take over) would do?

It kinda depends on which self shows up.  If it is the "I know what you are thinking and feeling one... "... .then the answer is no,  she can't be.  I will head other places and let her do her thing.

If she speaks kindly and is the "fun one", then yes she can be herself.

There were some more emails that flew around today, I suppose the only good news is that on Monday the counselor wants to "meet and assess where we are at" and figure out a way forward.
 
He did "point out" to my wife that if she has no solid examples she can explain to me of "inappropriate emotional connections" that it is impossible for me to understand or make any kind of corrective action.

My wife said she would make a list of the things I have done that indicate an "emotional connection".  This should be interesting.

FF

  FF,

In the role you were for work in Naval, you had to have logic, reason, be capable, be able to say No or why. Lives, safety and your job depended on it. You couldn't just be a yes man. You also had to be able to communicate with everyone and anyone, I am assuming in your role. You had to have authority but respect for others.

Now your wife is not going with reason or logic. It seems perhaps in getting married her authority was over her children, and those she taught. So she could always be in the right. I am not sure of other job capacities she had. No matter what the kids had to like what she said. So there didn't have to be a lot of give and take or logic. Just pure emotions, not sure if this might be perhaps the case. Then she has a hard time being wrong, even to herself illness aside.Pride and the illness. If she could put half that energy into your good part of marriage you both would be over the moon or at least happy... .

There are many thought patterns, boundaries in everyones lives, what some perceive as an emotional attachment many don't. There is many articles on how social media now plays a huge role in hurting many marriages. Emotional affairs and attachments can hurt more then physical and more damaging. Why? Well you are sharing intimate parts of you that spouse or loved one feels and should be reserved for.

Many blur the line now with friends that really have no intention of being friends, if even in the other persons mind they are helping, letting someone vent or intrigued. If another party has different intentions sometimes our spouses or loved ones can see right through what we don't.

 Psychotherapist Dr. Mary Jo Rapini argues that online cheating fits into the category known as an emotional affair. While some experts have distinguished online cheating from emotional cheating, Dr. Rapini says that it shares the same characteristics.

Dr. Rapini also stresses that in an emotional affair, including virtual affairs, the violated spouse may experience the severity of emotions associated with losing a loved one. "They may experience symptoms like denial, anger, depression, bargaining, acceptance and distrust. The victim of the affair may become obsessive about the details surrounding the discovery or the events surrounding the affairs."

I know this is not the case with you, I presented it so when she presents her thoughts, see why she might have felt that in your marriage.

If one does not do these and is accused it is hurtful and can wreck a marriage as well.

Good thing is you know her illness, know the paranoia. So don't let it destroy you. If something another did and you didn't realize it hurt her, address so you can move forward.

If not show her that there is no basis you are there with her, you have 8 children, are in counseling, spending time effort and money to be there. You love is with her in her heart. I know you have said many times, but when you said something she has felt since 2009 good now let it be addressed. Show her with her, 8 children, work, counseling,working on  you, the marriage, you don't have time... .lol Tell her no real woman would want a man devoted to his wife, children and in counseling for them and you only want a real woman her. Flaws and all you both are not perfect but you love. In your words, thoughts or with counselors help maybe.

Also with counselors help maybe show the different roles you both had in life that led you to talking or helping others more then her, and if she perceived different you are sorry. They are not important she is and you won't do that again. It is about saving your marriage, your love, your relationship, your trust, your intimacy.

One thing that might help her understand is just letting her get out, you saying I didn't know that made you feel that way or I should not have approached it in that way, but it was not intentional nor was it against our vows.

Sorry she still can't seem to get if you didn't love her you wouldn't be there trying so very hard.

Read my emotional vs logic thread as well in dealing with her.

I should clarify that this particular issue has come up in every counseling situation since 2009. 

The allegation has been thoroughly vetted and she came to a place in most of the counselings where she said there was no emotional affair and she could see how she misinterpreted.

Then she would act as if she never said that in new counseling... .start the cycle over again.

I have never been accused of an affair with someone I was actually attracted to.  Yes, like any guy I have had attractions or feelings come up and when that happens, I keep space. 

FF

That is so awful truly. Hang in there, hopefully all the counselors, emails going back and forth and patience can help you deal with her and her illness, with the situation.

"Emotional connections" can be misinterpreted. BPD is a disorder that affects the most intimate of relationships. Also consider projections. PwBPD may feel more comfortable in superficial relationships than with an intimate one like marriage.

We aren't islands. We can, and will connect with other people, but not all connections are infidelity. I know that you know the difference, and that to be faithful to a marriage, one has to have strong boundaries.

There are such things as working relationships, and they can include some kind of connection. I don't expect my H to work with someone for years and not care about them to some extent. However, it was hard for me to see just how nice and relaxed he could be with his co-workers and triggered/angry with me. Once we were out- he was giving me the ST over something. We ran into his secretary and he was all smiles and pleasant with her, then back to the ST with me. I recall wishing he would be as nice to me as he was to her.
But this isn't infidelity. It was an example of how our intimate relationship was the place for anger and projection. To some degree, we all are more polite and pleasant when we are at our professional best. It was that this contrast between how he acted with his secretary and then with me was large.

I too can behave differently with others. When I asked if your wife can "be herself" - I have found that it is hard to be ourselves in our marriages- it goes both ways- people walking on eggshells. My sponsor observed that my voice changes when my H calls on the phone. I become subdued, more careful. He is aware of that as well. If he hears or sees me "being me" with someone else male or female- it is upsetting to him. As a result, I do tend to speak/email to others in private, not because I am doing anything wrong but because of the potential to misinterpret the situation. Then - the need for privacy bothers him too.

One time we attended a get together with a family friend I have known since childhood. I think of this person as a brother. He is happily married and we attended as families- spouses, kids. Afterwards my H became enraged at me over the relationship. I was completely taken aback- how on earth could I have done anything wrong by speaking to him in the presence of our spouses and children? But I was able to hear that it was my ease of being- my being myself- and the presence of a sibling like connection/affection that was painful for him.

The e mail issue may be from 2009, but you didn't stop being human, or interacting with others and possibly even emotionally connecting with others. While that isn't infidelity, it may be an ongoing trigger. While you see the event as a single issue that was resolved, your wife's fears and ways of interpreting things are continuous.

My solution is to be more "myself" with my H and with co-dependency help, I have been able to do so. That isn't easy. As to accusations, if I know in my heart that I have been faithful, then I don't react to accusations with defensiveness.

And of course, logic and reason, are all left brain generated, frontal cortex generated, and have nothing to do with bodily felt emotions that are triggered by relational trauma and our past painful experiences.   Our culture eschews and devalues emotions, and clings to the life boat of logic and reason, ignoring that the reason we cling so tightly to logic and reason is to sooth our fears and protect ourselves from the messy and complex internal world of emotions, our own and others,  that we don't understand, that leaves us feeling like we can't get it right now matter how smart we are, no matter how profound our logic based arguments.   Even with a strict adherence to logic and reason, our fear of the unknown is running the show, our fear creates an over reliance on logic/reason to protect us... .and we are met with great success with this focus especially in certain careers, but the same expertise and reliance on logic and reason actually produces more discord and disconnect w/n interpersonal relationships that involve intimacy and the ability to deeply feel and deeply understand another person's private internal experience.   Logic and reason are tools.  Imperfect in their own way as is any tool.  And, logic and reason are not the right tool for every life problem and will actually get in the way of any work that needs to be done in the area of deep fears and deep private vulnerability and pain.  

Your wife is who she is.  She has deep-seated fears regarding trust.  This is deep, private, internal, and very, very vulnerable.  It represents something of huge value to her, HUGE.

We either empathize with those fears, knowing that inside of her where these fears live... .they are REAL... .or we don't.

You aren't going to logic your way though this with her.  Not in a million trillion years.

The only possible way this has a chance to become more integrated, is with a deep, empathic understanding of her felt, internal private logic, and a sensitivity to her private logic w/out "walking on eggshells" or without defense or making her wrong or you right... .and w/out a stance of fighting this so it will go away.  It won't go away, it can only be more or less integrated and digested.  You will never prove through logic and reason that her internal felt experience is not real and therefore a non-issue. You have not cheated on her and her real internal world still tells her that she may be in danger of being hurt or betrayed when she loves someone and makes herself vulnerable ... .the way she has in the past or has seen others be hurt in the past, probably when very young. THAT is real.  It is as real as her arm or her leg.  You are never going to argue it away.  Ever.  A deep heartfelt understanding of her fears, with reasonable and prudent sensitivity, and kind boundaries... .might bring you through to a more integrated experience as her partner.  

If this is personalized and faught as though there is a battle to win, she's wrong, I'm right, I have the facts, she doesn't,  you will make more solid her felt experience that you are not trustworthy, b/c you show over and over again that you can't "get" why her fears are real to her and why her pain is real to her inside.   Even if you are the most faithful man in the world, existentially we all must deal with the possibility of betrayal.  All of us must deal with that fear.   For some, b/c of previous traumas that inform core beliefs that can make those fears more acute and more easily triggered... .this is a huge sore spot, an open wound that hurts with even the slightest unintentional brush.  That is part of your wife, part of her past experience, part of her private internal logic that makes sense based on HER perspective of the world seen through her eyes since she was old enough to see... .it is a part of her whether you accept it or not.  

You will have to put logic aside for any hope in shifting this to a healthier place.   Logic is not your friend with this kind of thing.

And... .Biblical Marriage Counseling is now over.

I'll make a separate thread about that.  What is clear is that the counselor declared me "unteachable" when I would not agree or go along with his direction on properly handling verbal abuse.

The quick version. (words from my counselor)  My walking away and going to another room is selfish.  I need to think about loving my wife vice protecting myself.  Jesus was abused and since we are supposed to be like Jesus, if "taking" abuse is what is required to properly love my wife and "live with her in an understanding way"... .then that is what I am called to do.

I was incredulous.  Remembered a word track from my P.  I asked if he could tell me what that would look like.

He described getting yelled at and that the response would be to lovingly embrace my wife and ask her what I can do to love her.  If she gets louder I should ask her to pray... .and keep doing this... regardless of what my wife does.

He then said that since I outweighed my wife by over twice... .I was in no real danger.

I was speechless... .Then asked him to put that in writing.  He refused.  I said no.  He ended counseling after that.  Now has been sending us both a bunch of emails that point the finger at me.

My take is that he was worn out with us and was looking for a reason.  He is probably used to "compliant" people just accepting whatever he says.

FF



 

Maybeso- I wish there was a "like" button for your post!

FF- that surely was a shock.

For now, I think letting the dust settle on both your feelings will help process what happened. It's going to be emotional for your wife if she put her hopes into this.

How did your wife react to this?

Jesus often hid himself away from those who meant him harm. Sometimes He chose to endure abuse, but more often He kept some pretty awesome boundaries.

The only options are not subjecting yourself to abuse or "not living with her in an understanding way". (insert eyeroll here) If that's all he can see, he's not a very skilled counselor.

That's very unprofessional to be sending emails after ending the counseling relationship.

Oh, my. That sounds rather dramatic and plays right into ffw's belief that you are the problem.

He has some bad theology; there are plenty of Bible verses that say to distance yourself from people who are verbally abusive. The tools that he has are talk, read your bible, pray, and love (the 'be nice' version). You weren't going along with his plan, so... . 

Lovingly embracing someone who is yelling and upset with you might be interpreted as physical abuse, especially if you are much larger than the other person. I think you were wise to say no.

There's going to be fall out, though.

The bad: I hope that wasn't your last tether to your wife seeking her own counseling.

The good: Amateur hour is over.

FF, you were right to say no.  And it is shocking that his solution was you submitting to the abuse rather than telling your wife to stop it WHILE SHE IS IN THE SAME ROOM (or so I assume).

Also, there is something else that is in play here.  The biggest danger in your marriage is you actually getting angry and then getting physical.  It is the danger for all men.  We instinctively withdraw once we start to feel angry, just so that it doesn't escalate.  For him to suggest that the best solution is for you to just stand there and take it is dangerous not only to you, but to your wife as well.

 
Things are surprisingly calm after this.  I'll try to post a new thread on this later.  About my thoughts on this "biblical counseling" process that I went through.

FF

I think that your position on this can be supported. I agree that the idea that you just sit there and take abuse is not a good one. I also personally don't agree on that BC's interpretation of religion, but as you know, there are many ways to look at that and not all are in agreement. Yet not all are entirely wrong either.

Coming from a place where I had the mirror turned on me during interpersonal issues, I found that the one side right, one side wrong was rarely entirely true. So while I could find many ways to tell you that you were right and he was wrong, I am not sure if that is as helpful to you as looking at it from a different perspective.

The BC may have made errors, but were there things he was correct on?

One of the issues in these relationships is our ability to manage our own emotions and how we do that. While nobody should tolerate verbal abuse, how we respond to it is part of the situation. It includes the pink elephant idea. Your wife could scream at you that you are a pink elephant and you might have to stop yourself from giggling. It wouldn't feel like abuse because, to you, it would be absurd. Her words hurt you in part because they connect with you in some way. But we can also examine this connection and our emotional reaction to the words.

When your wife is verbally assaulting you, your reaction is part of it. Yes, you need to do what you can to take care of your own feelings- and walking out is an acceptable way to do so, especially if you are feeling angry. But sitting calmly and not reacting if you are in no immediate physical danger can also diffuse the situation- that is, if you are able to do so.

Regardless, you should feel your MC is supporting you through this, not condemning you or telling you you are wrong. This was a mismatch for you, and personally, I would not want this kind of counseling- but that doesn't mean it won't work for someone else or he had nothing to offer you. Taking the view that every person, or encounter might be something to learn from might lead you to some ideas.

My goal over next couple of days is to have several positive conversations with my wife about what we liked or can identify from this biblical counseling that improved our relationship.  That we use and build on those things instead of focusing on parts that we don't agree.

Christianity is a fairly broad thing.  This church is pretty far over on the self judgment and "smile while you suffer" realm of things.  I personally think it is a stretch to look at scripture and get to where they get.  I'm not comfortable saying they are completely wrong.

To me, it seems like when the suffering bus is coming down the road... .they are finding ways to dive in front of it.  I think getting out of the road is fine.  They think it is self centered.

There are some fundamental differences there in belief that drive behaviors.  Neither of us were going to change beliefs... .therefore about zero chance of coming to compromise on acceptable behavior.

FF

A bad counselor does more harm than good, and it looks like that is what you had. I like your view of finding the positives (if there were any) and taking those with you.

The big question is, "What next?" Find a new MC? Who chooses the new MC? And at what point do you call BS on the new one if they are as inept as this one was?

We have a great MC who has really helped. (Helps he is in the same practice as Mrs. Cole's T and they share information with her permission.) But this is number 5. The first 3 did not know what to do with BPD and the 4th did more harm than good.

Keep searching, the right one for you and Mrs. FF is out there.



 

FF - that BC was just plain wrong.  He's an idiot.  We are no where told we have to tolerate abuse in the bible.  No where at all.  In fact, it says just the opposite.  It says that if we purposely stay in a position where we someone will sin against us, we are actually enabling them to continue sinning, and we are actually being complicit with their sin to an extent.  Therefore, we should remove ourselves and not participate in their sin. 

This article articulates it as well as I've seen.  Please read it. 

https://dannimoss.wordpress.com/articles/abuse-in-the-christian-home/does-god-want-me-to-stay-in-an-abusive-marriage/ (https://dannimoss.wordpress.com/articles/abuse-in-the-christian-home/does-god-want-me-to-stay-in-an-abusive-marriage/)

The BC's followup of emails blaming you and what not, that just screams professional misconduct.  Is this jerk-wad professionally licensed?  If so, I'd take copies and attach them to a professional complaint against him.  I'd also go to his church and do the same thing.  This guy is simple lashing at you now and he' s participating in your wife's abuse.  It's called triangulation, you're the target of triangulated abuse from him and your wife.  He's basically now one of her flying monkeys.  Look up the Karpman Triangle.  It's what's happening. 

To stop this kind of thing, someone has to exit the triangle.  That's what the complaints are for, to knock the BC out of the triangle.  If that doesn't work, then honestly, removing yourself from the triangle will do it too.  Matthew 18:15-17 is pretty clear.  If they won't stop abusing you, send them away.  Separate yourself from them.  It doesn't say retaliate against them (in this case your wife), just remove the ability for them to continue abusing you. 

You've got better self control than me.  I'd have had a hard time not knocking that guy over the head.

I'm sorry it worked out like this, FF. However, from the get-go, it was pretty obvious that this guy was way beyond his depth. He probably felt his authority was threatened by you not going along with his autocratic prescriptions for your marriage and now he's shown his hand. No surprise, but I would have thought he'd stick with it a bit longer. You sized him up off the bat and he didn't like anyone seeing behind the mask.

*mod*

We're locking this one because the thread has reached it's post limit. You're welcome with starting a new discussion thread with the same or similar topic. Thanks.