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I wanted to share some "interesting" insights into my husband's mind that he has been sharing with me lately. He's a retired attorney, very intelligent, high functioning BPD, can be very emotional, fears that people don't like him, tends to self medicate with alcohol, spends much time reading and watching TV.

Since I've been participating here, I've changed my ways of relating to him and I validate more, JADE less, try to be supportive but not directive, and talk much less about myself. This has allowed him to trust me more and to be more candid with his feelings.

Lately he has started riding his road bike, after being inspired by watching the Tour de France (everyfreakinghour of it!). So that's good that he's getting more exercise because I was worried about his couchpotato-ish lifestyle. Recently he's bought about a dozen different team jerseys. He told me that while he's riding, he pretends he's a Belgian rider or on the British team or whatever. (OK, whatever motivates you, Sweetheart.) Of course I didn't say that, and it's a damn good thing that I've had a lifetime of practicing my poker face, but this seemed so age-inappropriate, but whatever... .SMH

Next insight--he's been learning an obscure language and has worked with an instructor in another state, both one-on-one and through conference calls with other students. It's a language that has an alphabet different from Arabic, Greek, Latin, Cyrillic, Hebrew or Asian alphabets, and he has devoted a huge amount of time to learn it in the last four years. Currently he is out of state, attending a week-long intensive with a few other students. He confided in me that he was worried about meeting his instructor and his wife. He was afraid that they would be "disappointed" in him.

Again, I was amazed by this disclosure and thankfully didn't say anything invalidating. I'm thinking that these shared confidences are just the tip of the iceberg of all his lack of sense of self, self-loathing, insecurity, stunted emotional growth, whatever. I know this sounds judgmental, but it is so incongruous with his elegant, refined social presentation that the rest of the world sees.

As long as I stay open and don't externally judge him, I'm sure he'll tell me more.

my wife has the same thinking. She isolates herself from people that she thinks are on a higher plain than her. She tends to "hook" up with people that do not "threaten" her.

Yeah, he cultivates "friendships" with people who are at lower social strata than him, usually people who work in some service role, and gives them excessive gifts. It's not that he wants to socialize with them; he wants them to "look up" to him. The people he wants to socialize with are "A" list people and he's not reciprocally on their "A" list. Rather he's on their "C" or ":)" list.

It occurred to me that when he's wearing the team jersey, he isn't imagining he's a "team member." He's imagining he's the guy who is the star of the team.  lol

Cat, I think your being more vulnerable, less judging, more accepting does have a positive affect on your H sharing his vulnerabilities with you.

I've told my H that I don't want a fantasy man, I want a real person, and nobody is perfect.

Being loved unconditionally is what we all want. That doesn't include accepting hurtful behavior, but loving someone who is also imperfect, like we are. In both our home, my H and I had to act perfect to avoid being criticized. But we aren't perfect.

I will share something I read from a book on decluttering. It said to let go of your fantasy self and keep what fits your real self. What is our fantasy self? It's the self that says " I'm going to read all those books" I'm going to scrapbook all those pictures" when you aren't a scrapbooker and you don't like the books. But we hang on to stuff we are going to do some day if we hang on to those fantasies. Yes, I will wear those size 2 jeans from high school  one day. No, give them to someone who will.

If someone has a poor self image and a larger fantasy self, then that fantasy can affect their choices. But the hobbies are a good thing. So, if your H imagines he is Lance Armstrong, and it makes him happy and is good for him, then why not?

What is our fantasy self? It's the self that says " I'm going to read all those books"

Very timely comment, Notwendy. I've been moving books today and figuring out which ones I need to get rid of.  lol I still think I might actually read some of them.

And yes, whatever makes him feel good about himself is a good thing. It just really surprised me because it was the sort of pretend game I used to do when I was about eleven.

And there is a sweet childish quality to lots of these pwBPD. We get attracted to that in the beginning and don't realize that they actually have some obstacle to maturation--they are like little kids at times, both the good qualities of sweetness, innocence, wonder and the bad qualities of selfishness, temper tantrums, narcissism.

It's not that he wants to socialize with them; he wants them to "look up" to him.

My h wants to be 'looked up to' also. A while ago, he was complaining that all his 'friends' got kicked out of their houses/living situations by their wives and are not living locally anymore... . 

I think one of the things that's really problematic with pwBPD is that they really want close supportive relationships with friends and loved ones, but it feels claustrophobic to them when they actually get that. They would rather dwell in "wanting" than "having" and when they do "have", then they're likely to detonate the situation because it's so uncomfortable to "have" instead of "want".

And when they "have", they're constantly afraid of getting exposed as a "fraud" because they're "putting their best foot forward" and to try to be something other than who they are is exhausting.

I think that is what my H did with me. His social image is amazing. People think he is the greatest. I fell in love with him in that setting. Then, once things got serious, it was like Jeckyll-Hyde. If I said anything, he blamed me for that, and I believed him. I recall telling a mutual close friend, " he doesn't act like the person we knew". Her response was that he must be under stress. I agreed, as there were stresses, but over the years there was always some sort of reason, and he always blamed me for causing trouble between us if I brought it up.

I truly loved him, and would have given him all the love he craved, but at the time, he pushed me away. Now, I am more reserved. I still love him, but not in that innocent way that I did. He says he wants that kind of love. I told him I don't want to love something that isn't real. I just want real, whatever that is. I think that helps him be himself. He doesn't have to work at being something he isn't with me. I would rather have the in between- a little Jeckyll a little Hyde. Not all of one or the other.

I also blame myself too. I had a false persona from growing up with BPD mom. Maybe the inverse of ideal, as it was so easy to convince me that I was to blame, and if that were the case, I could fix it. I thought it was my job to keep everyone happy and didn't think there was any other way to love someone. So I also have to work on being authentic.

They would rather dwell in "wanting" than "having" and when they do "have", then they're likely to detonate the situation because it's so uncomfortable to "have" instead of "want".

This seems to be a general stance for my h; he is always wanting something. He constantly asks me what I want and is confused when I say 'nothing'; he's also never satisfied.

Interesting, when we are 'in love', we tend to idealize the other person, only seeing the positives and minimizing the negatives (if they are seen at all). As the relationship grows, the love matures and includes the negatives as well as the positives, at least in healthy relationships. My h has said that he wants to be 'in love' again... .  He can usually last about 2 years in any other relationship before he gets fed up with it, or before the other people catch on to his issues.

He's also a bit jealous of my friendships and relationships: "people like you... ." (well, unless he sabotages those relationships)  Sometimes, the immaturity really gets to me.

All relationships go through an idealizing phase. For the relationship to last, couples need to be able to have mature ways to resolve issues, and a lasting, growing love. This kind of love actually takes some work- not putting up with a bunch of misery, but work at communication, growing together.


Our relationship broke down at this point, neither of us had the skills to truly be effective. I just became increasingly co-dependent trying to fix it.

I read a lot of books on marriage, not just about BPD. I didn't even know that's what my mother had at the time ( I knew something was going on, just not what it was).

I learned a lot from them, and am glad for the knowledge. It helped me to at least see patterns and things to work on.

My H seemed so confident. I had no clue that he had any insecurities. I on the other hand, didn't hide them. He would be critical of me for them. I felt somehow inferior. I don't now though. Strange how these relationships play out.

His social image is amazing. People think he is the greatest. I fell in love with him in that setting. Then, once things got serious, it was like Jeckyll-Hyde.

I also blame myself too. I had a false persona from growing up with BPD mom.

Yes, I definitely put my best foot forward too at the beginning of the relationship. I was more willing to travel and do the entertainment things my husband enjoys. However, when it became obvious that he wasn't as willing to stretch outside his comfort zone to do things I like, my accommodating his wants and needs sharply decreased.

A turning point was when I bought a massage table, thinking we could give each other massages. I gave him many massages, but the only use he made of that table was folding his laundry upon it. One day I gave it to my physical therapist, who had just graduated from her program and was struggling to make ends meet. I figured she could make use of it at home, where she didn't have one to use.

As I withdrew some of my supportive behavior, you can guess what happened. I was no longer idealizing him, so he didn't feel "special" and he began drinking more and being less amenable. Then the typical downward spiral that we've all experienced began, to the point where I had to ask myself, "What happened to the guy I fell in love with?"

Now, a few years later, I'm much more educated about how my behavior elicits the negative BPD behavior that I don't want. Therefore, I seldom behave in ways that will trigger him. Every now and then I call him out on something so egregiously hypocritical, but for the most part, things are fairly smooth between us, boring even. I guess I liked those highs, even though I had to pay for them with the lows, but not anymore. And when I do confront him, he gets over it faster and sometimes even admits the truth in what I have to say.

Interesting, when we are 'in love', we tend to idealize the other person, only seeing the positives and minimizing the negatives (if they are seen at all). As the relationship grows, the love matures and includes the negatives as well as the positives, at least in healthy relationships.

Yes, and those negatives come back and bite us in the butt. Now I can look back and see snapshots of behaviors and attitudes that I eagerly dismissed at the time because I was "so in love." And the red flags were there all along, I chose to ignore them.

Fortunately, this guy, unlike my first husband, is kindhearted and honest. I really do have very little patience for the crazy any more, so I guess that is a good thing. Had I really paid attention at the very beginning, I wonder if I would have proceeded further with this relationship. Knowing what I know now, I doubt it. But I didn't know it then.

However, that said, I do have a very comfortable life and he's a good guy. I'm getting over the disappointment that I got "duped again" and I actually think it's possible that I might be able to love him again. He's gone for a week doing a seminar right now, so it's a good time for me to mediate on my own issues of falling for a fantasy and feeling so distraught when I realized that I fell in love with an image, not a person.

All relationships go through an idealizing phase. For the relationship to last, couples need to be able to have mature ways to resolve issues, and a lasting, growing love. This kind of love actually takes some work- not putting up with a bunch of misery, but work at communication, growing together.


At the heart of the problem of a relationship between a pwBPD and a non is the matter of working on ways to resolve relationship issues. I see so many nons here bending over backwards trying to do the work that two healthy people need to do to keep a relationship afloat. I wonder if it is truly possible for one person to shoulder the burden alone.

What I've experienced with partners with personality disorders is that they cannot stand any feedback that smacks of criticism and they will find criticism in the most innocent remark. For people to truly work on relationships, they have to be accountable, not only to the other person, but to themselves and this is where pwBPD fall short, due to their tendency for black and white thinking.

I can't count the times my husband has said, "I'm not all bad, am I?" in a childlike voice. Even though I tried to tell him I love him, but I don't love the behavior--a strategy that I attempted to use before I landed here--he never got the distinction, probably because he has such a limited and fragile concept of his own identity.

So as much as we can try to have a healthy relationship with a pwBPD, I'm not optimistic that it would ever look like a truly healthy relationship. That said, I don't know of many nons who have a healthy relationship either, so it might just be pie-in-the-sky thinking on my part that there is such an animal as a "healthy relationship" and chances of finding one might be about as rare as seeing a unicorn, however one of my goats has a single horn, so there are probably some semi-healthy relationships out there. I don't know. I haven't had one and I can't say I know any friends who claim to have one either.

I am touched to hear about these stories. I reflect now that my wife was helpless in a lot of ways.  That was never endearing to me, but, I didn't mind stepping up and doing all the adult things (bills, management, household).  In the meantime, on occasion, my wife would pick up hobbies she enjoyed, and I loved seeing her happy (and talented) at those.  It gives me almost the sense a parent gets when watching their kid finally take his first steps, or have a part in the play, or something like that.  A happiness for someone else.  Too bad it always comes down to feeling like the parent not the partner.

Inevitably however, these created problems because in her perspective I didn't support them, or couldn't pay for them, or whatever.  And usually, she would feel I was against it - due to some imaginary "mind-reading" projection that she came up with.  So, she would get discouraged again.  But, it was nice at times to see her into doing her things.  I long for a normal life with a normal person.  

If I knew then what I know now, I could have reshaped my behavior - and been more validating, or bent over even farther backwards to make sure she felt supported and loved.  Maybe that could have steered our relationship into a better situation, but, I almost broke as it was, and lessons always follow the tests in life.  

Wow.  Cat - you and I used almost the same phrases as we made our separate entries describing the dynamic. 
Must be true

If I knew then what I know now, I could have reshaped my behavior - and been more validating, or bent over even farther backwards to make sure she felt supported and loved. 

Isn't that interesting, that we are OK with bending over backwards to try to be loving and supportive? And so sad, then over time, irritating, that they cannot or will not see how hard we are trying to "make them happy."

It goes back to the metaphor of trying to fill a black hole. There is no "there" there. They have such a fragile and incomplete identity and are looking for someone to attach themselves to for supplying all their parasitic needs for support, love, interest, happiness. And it works for them for a time, until we have needs of our own and assert them and wonder why there's no reciprocity.

The affection and attention felt one sided to me too, but since that was my role growing up- working so hard to be loved- I didn't know any different. I still idealized my H, but pregnancy and kids took my attention and I was doing all of the hands on child care. That's when my H fell out of love. Those were dark years. I hung in there for the kids. Somehow he decided to try again. It's been a work in progress.

The sensitivity is more than I realized. Even little things. Some leftovers were gone. He said I ate all of them. I replied that I didn't eat all of them. Just a fact- I don't care at all who ate them. He insisted he didn't eat them - reacting as if that was a criticism. I thought this is no big deal- said I must have eaten them and just went on. It is sad to think that so many things I said were perceived as hurtful when I didn't intend them to be. Now when I sense things were interpreted wrong , I just back off. Not worth it.

The sensitivity is more than I realized. Even little things. Some leftovers were gone. He said I ate all of them. I replied that I didn't eat all of them. Just a fact- I don't care at all who ate them. He insisted he didn't eat them - reacting as if that was a criticism. I thought this is no big deal- said I must have eaten them and just went on. It is sad to think that so many things I said were perceived as hurtful when I didn't intend them to be. Now when I sense things were interpreted wrong , I just back off. Not worth it.


Yes, I get this about "backing off" and at the same time, I don't want to admit to things I haven't done. One of our cats has gotten very good at opening the door to the verandah, where there's an extra bedroom, my office, and the laundry room. I keep the cats in at night because we have lots of predators, so it's an ironclad rule for me.

My husband doesn't shut doors well, nor kitchen cabinets, nor refrigerator doors. It used to drive me mad. He's trying, but the attention to detail isn't there because it's not something that he's interested in. So when the cat got out one night recently, he picked her up and brought her into his studio, where we were watching TV.

"The door to the verandah wasn't shut completely," I said. (I knew it was him because he was going back and forth, putting laundry into the washer and drier.)

Guess what, first words out of his mouth were "I didn't do that." I simply said, "I haven't been out there tonight."

He put the cat back after she started marauding through his studio, looking for things to knock over.

I went out to the verandah a bit later and found the door slightly ajar. In the past, I would have been furious, but knowing that wouldn't accomplish anything other than a bitter fight, I simply said, "You have to close the door until it clicks."

A couple of hours later, after a few trips back and forth from the laundry room, he said, "I've got to check the door" and he went back and made sure it was shut properly. When he returns from his week-long seminar, it will be interesting if the learning stuck and he continues to shut the door completely.

I remember an eldercare advocate told me when I was taking care of my mother with dementia, to repeat the following phrase to myself so that I didn't get frustrated about the level of my mother's abilities: "NO NEW LEARNING." Perhaps that is also true with pwBPD about issues that are unimportant to them.

Yes, and yes!  I can walk away from anything now because it's not worth the lawyer-like arguing about what I said, what I mean, what I did last year... .

Cat - have you considered a sign on the door to check that it is closed? I found that verbal requests, events, were more likely to be forgotten than written ones.

I think it is about attention. If someone's mind is elsewhere, saying something to them may not register, but something in writing can be there to look at and be reminded. 

Cat - you and I used almost the same phrases as we made our separate entries describing the dynamic.  


What strikes me over and over in reading different people's accounts on this site is how similar the structural dynamics are in these relationships. During my brief stint in grad school for counseling, I remember one of my professors said, ":)isregard the details. Look at the structure."

When we do that, it's easy to spot patterns and to notice how our own input can change results. Really, the details of why we argue  often are so transitory and irrelevant. Somebody left a mess in the kitchen. Someone didn't fill up the car with gas. What's really behind the details are structural issues and if we're truly honest it's "you don't care about me" or something similar--and this goes both ways, for the pwBPD and the non.

Cat - have you considered a sign on the door to check that it is closed? I found that verbal requests, events, were more likely to be forgotten than written ones.

I think it is about attention. If someone's mind is elsewhere, saying something to them may not register, but something in writing can be there to look at and be reminded. 


Actually I've done this about a few other issues and oddly enough, he can be completely oblivious to a sign on a door. I find it so ironic because when he edits photographs on his giant computer screen, he sees tremendous detail. Yet, he will not see a 9 X 11 sheet of paper taped to a cabinet door. (It must be that he's so into some internal thought process that he neglects to see what's right before him.)

One of these signs he missed I had taped to the outside of a big box store giant bag of toilet paper rolls. Not only had I told him that mice got into our storage area and had shredded most of the TP rolls in an individual bag of six rolls. So I taped a sign on the intact bag telling him to use the opened bag of rolls that was in the upper cabinet, instead of opening the large bag on the lower storage shelf. He kept opening the bag and I kept taping it shut and reaffixing the note.

It was months later that he actually read the note and apologized. Fortunately, in the meantime, I had discovered that cotton balls soaked in peppermint oil was an effective mouse deterrent.

What did you do after he said this and did this? 

I ask... .because my Psychologist has been leaning hard... .really hard on me to "respond" in a healthy and loving way vice "react".

In fact... .I still have a couple more things on my "to do" list.  I don't want to smash them all together and I want to find appropriate time to focus.

1.  Thank you card with nice sentiment in it to thank her for being a teacher in public school and for teaching our kids.  (last Sunday was teacher appreciation day at our church)

2.  There are a couple of things she has done lately that where done because I asked... and were done in the way that I asked them to be done (details really did matter).  At the time there wasn't time for a "moment" and a quick thanks was given.  Our relationship (and my wife) is worth more than a quick thanks.  The plan is that tonight on date night I will do the thanks.  The critical parts are thanks, that it really felt good to me for her to do that, and that I'm looking forward to "moving forward together" on this issue. 

FF

I'm making conscious effort to work on same thing... .especially when my wife's mind is elsewhere.  I think I had a victory this morning. 

We have a "key bowl" where keys are supposed to be deposited (my wife's idea).  I keep my own set of keys with me at all times and put them in drawer next to my bed at night.  A couple days ago I had to temporarily give my keys to my wife and this morning I asked her if they were still in her purse.  She said no... .that she had put them in the bowl.  (I was standing at the bowl... .looking). 

I did think it appropriate to ask a couple questions about when she did this... .and that went fine.  She did look in her purse again... .no keys.  It was busy getting kids off to school... .so I dropped the matter (especially since I had backup set of keys).

I had been careful about tone during the entire conversation.

Later in the morning I went out to her car and looked around.  She loves to put things in the center console... .and guess what I found there.  My keys.

Later... .I casually said something like "Oh hey... .I found my keys in the cruiser (we name all our vehicles... .) "

She said ... ."ohh good... ."  I let the matter drop. 

She had said earlier with absolute conviction about date and time of when she put the keys in the bowl... .that likely never happened.  What matters is I have my keys... .and didn't needlessly embarrass or "point out" flaws in my wife.

FF

That is awesome FF. I think we all can use some appreciation for what we do. I think someone with BPD needs even more. They can be so sensitive to any possible criticism that one slight can undo a list of positive feedback. Sometimes I think their own self talk is so negative.

While it may feel over the top to us, I think they need a lot of positive reinforcement. I think we'd like a little more of that from them too, but someone has to start it. :)

Well played FF.  I have learned to sugar-coat almost everything I say.  I usually avoid anything that involves a question or concern about her [anything] so as to avoid triggers.  I laugh and cry at myself inside when I see what I have to do to have a semblance of normal conversation.

On one hand it dismisses any learning that can and should happen as two people live together (including talking about needs, and things small and great like pet peeves, etc.).  On the other hand, it keeps the peace and, at least for me, it teaches me over and over that little things are really not important. 

All is well that ends well, and I tell myself that if it won't matter tomorrow, than it doesn't matter today.

I laugh and cry at myself inside when I see what I have to do to have a semblance of normal conversation.

On one hand it dismisses any learning that can and should happen as two people live together (including talking about needs, and things small and great like pet peeves, etc.).  On the other hand, it keeps the peace and, at least for me, it teaches me over and over that little things are really not important. 


Yes, trying to talk about "issues" with a pwBPD is like walking through a minefield. I've even gotten in trouble by thanking him for doing something because in his mind it's a criticism because apparently he thinks I'm saying that he should have done it previously.

So, positive reinforcement (for all of us) is uber important, but very tricky to do it the right way with a pwBPD so that we don't trigger their filter for criticism, sarcasm and snark. So often I've been accused of sarcasm when I've said something that was meant as kind, loving and appreciative. (I'm such a direct person, I'd have to try really hard to be sarcastic and it wouldn't be easy or natural.)

FF, I probably should have said something positive about him checking the door, but as you can see, I'm a bit gun-shy about giving him positive feedback. As I've often mentioned here, my husband has a tendency to abuse alcohol. There are times when he has tried to moderate his use and overall, he's doing a lot better. So I've been in a quandary, since I used to confront him about his drinking. I've wanted to acknowledge that days when he doesn't drink are really nice, but then, no matter how I try to imagine saying that, it comes out sounding like criticism. Then ironically he has said when he's been upset, "You don't even notice when I try to cut back."

Oh yes I do, but how the heck do you say that? 

They can be so sensitive to any possible criticism that one slight can undo a list of positive feedback. Sometimes I think their own self talk is so negative.


Absolutely. My husband frequently mutters swear words under his breath and sometimes, apropos of nothing, says one in a very loud voice. It used to really startle me and I'd ask, "What's wrong?" thinking there was a huge problem.

Every time his answer was something like, "I'm just beating myself up about something."

Be yourself... .and be direct.  "I really enjoyed spending time with you today!"  There is nothing shaming or guilt inducing about that. 

I would not tie it to alcohol unless he brings it up.  If he does bring it up... .tell him you have noticed his hard work and that it is paying off.  Ask him directly how you can better support him. 

Remember, it's about the future and not the past.

Here is the critical thing.  Other than drinking... .when he takes action on things you have requested him to do.  There needs to be positive feedback and thanks.  Let him know how much it means to you (that it ties you two together)

It doesn't have to be an over the top thing.  Perhaps you can make it fun.  It's another step in the right direction.  Don't get distracted by detours or possible bad behavior.

For instance:  We did date night last night.  Good dinner and conversation.  Towards the end of dinner I gave her a card.  She seemed appreciative.  It was nice moment... .then we went on with the rest of the evening.

Later that evening... .

I had asked her to come in and help me get things on the calendar (on my computer) to help the weekend go smoother.  I was in bed and ready for sleep... .she was still delaying coming in... .for some reason.  She finally breezes into the room and immediately starts ranting about a computer cord laying on the bed... .oddly enough connected to the laptop computer I had out and open to google calendar (hmmmm... .really odd... .I know)

Then she flings the computer charging cord my way (perhaps making sure none of it was on her side... .not sure).  Starts to lecture me about locations of other outlets in the room. 

I got up, unplugged my computer and walked out and put my laptop on my desk in another room.

Came back in and she is sitting on the bed with a bunch of papers out.  I asked if she was ready to turn out the light.  She said she thought I wanted to put stuff in the computer calendar and I said "I did... but I need to go to sleep now"  (it was 45 min past my bedtime now... .)

She huffed a bit and left the room... .I still got over 8 hours of sleep. 

She seemed better this morning... .I don't plan on mentioning the computer cord rant.  My strategic plan was to not get caught up in discussions that don't matter.

Where I plug in a computer doesn't matter.

Deciding to talk to or otherwise engage my wife when she is worked up about something does matter. 

Protecting my sleep does matter.

Letting my wife sort out things like this (whatever she was upset about with the computer cord) on her own does matter.

FF

Remember, it's about the future and not the past.

Here is the critical thing.  Other than drinking... .when he takes action on things you have requested him to do.  There needs to be positive feedback and thanks.  Let him know how much it means to you (that it ties you two together)

It doesn't have to be an over the top thing.  Perhaps you can make it fun.  It's another step in the right direction.  :)on't get distracted by detours or possible bad behavior.

Thanks, FF. Good ideas. I'm dismayed at how little I understand how to give positive feedback to my husband. I can so easily do it with my friends. And I know it came much more naturally when we first were dating. I guess it's a sign of two things: not having good role models in my FOO and building up a tremendous load of resentment for my husband.

In all fairness, I feel that I've carried so much resentment from my first marriage to an abusive pwBPD and when the BPD symptoms started showing up in my current marriage, I felt so much indignation and betrayal. So at least I have an intellectual understanding of this and now my feelings are starting to get the message too. I know he "didn't do this on purpose" and my compassion for him is growing. And whereas my relationship with my ex on a scale of 1 to 10 with one being mild irritation to ten being absolutely horrible, I'd say was about an 8. While this marriage only would rank about a 2 sometimes, with a definite 3 at times when he was more actively abusing alcohol. So in reality, I don't have much to complain about, other than my own baggage!

Be yourself.  Very direct and matter of fact.  Likelihood of that sounding authentic is very high.

FF

Hi All,

New to BPD Family and I want start by saying that I am so impressed by the knowledge and insight you folks possess.   Thanks in advance for your help!

I suspect my GF of almost 5 years to be suffering from BPD.  The evolution of our RS is textbook from what I've read here.  And, I would like to share some insight into her mind if I may.

She's been a ticking time bomb the last few weeks and has been even struggling to keep her composure at at work.  Apparently, and I say apparently because she has an altered perception of how events actually take place, last Friday she had an altercation with her supervisor at work.  I'm not exactly sure what to believe, but according to her, she was right and her boss was wrong.  Well, she told her boss off and there was a meeting about her actions and whether or not to take disciplinary action against my gf.

Fast forward to after the meeting, she comes home and tells me that she will now be focused on writing "her essay."  She discovered some essay contest online where the winner wins a free vacation resort on the ocean.  She is convinced she can win and that this is the answer to all of her problems.  She has hated her job and the lack of $$ money she makes for quite some time. And, instead  of looking for a new job or focusing on going back to school which I hear about relentlessly, her solution is some fantasy about winning an essay contest!

Arghh, her logic or lack thereof makes my head spin!  As does her inability to accept responsibility for anything she does!

She discovered some essay contest online where the winner wins a free vacation resort on the ocean.  She is convinced she can win and that this is the answer to all of her problems.  She has hated her job and the lack of $$ money she makes for quite some time. And, instead  of looking for a new job or focusing on going back to school which I hear about relentlessly, her solution is some fantasy about winning an essay contest!

Yes, I've heard a similar flight of fantasy from my ex-husband during our divorce process. I think added stress can flip them into more extreme dysregulation and even psychosis.

My ex had been living on credit cards and paying off old credit cards by getting new credit cards. He wasn't working. He told me that he was going to write a screenplay and sell it for half a million dollars. (He'd never written a screenplay before. The only thing he ever wrote in our time together was a poem and a children's short story.) He then was going to go to the Academy Awards and he was going to drive a 1940 Packard, that he was going to buy and fix up. (He had changed out engines in his Volkswagen bus and his 1960s truck, but had never done body work, upholstery, etc.)

I was so dumbfounded when I heard this that it made me wonder if he was always that crazy during our marriage and that I hadn't noticed.

What a remarkably insightful threat. The flights of fantasy, socialization challenges, and lack of responsibility are common themes expressed by all.

My wife has had her bouts with fantasy (Just read my posts from last fall!). She is afraid of anyone above our socio-economic level, uncomfortable around those at the same level, and gravitates toward people with messed up lives and no job because they are not threatening to her. And while she has been very stable and responsible as of late, it is a daily struggle for her.

Fantasy, socialization fears, and failure to take responsibility are all symptoms of Asperger's. I know, as we have a S13 who falls clearly into the spectrum. Makes me wonder about the relationship between BPD and autism spectrum disorders.      

  

In all honesty, you make me wonder.  My wife has several BPD traits, and most of the waif type. She has many traits of avoidant personality disorder too.  My son (11) is clearly wired differently with pronounced BPD traits (emotional dysregulation and extreme responses to name a few), and he has many indicators of Aspergian traits, but not quite autism in the sense that he avoids socialization. He has was diagnosed with anxiety disorder, or mild autism, but that does not quite sum it up in my view. 

I wonder what between genetics and environment, nature and nurture, contributed to his condition. 

As sad as this sounds, I hope for him to not get into a serious relationship or marry.  Ever.  I can't bear to think of him treating a wife and kids they way he does me (his father) and his sisters. ---->Terrible thing to say, I know, but if there was something he could do to have some social connection, find purpose, meaningful and self-fulfilling work, I think he could be happy and not cause damage and trauma. 

Son has been dx by several doctors with Asperger's, bipolar, ODD, ADHD.  They cannot seem to agree on any one thing.

Current P is concerned he is developing a personality disorder. There is definite overlap.

Fantasy, socialization fears, and failure to take responsibility are all symptoms of Asperger's.

A few years ago I was accused of being "an Aspie" by a friend who is a disabled student's counselor at a community college. She has been diagnosed in the past as bipolar and was having a meltdown in a restaurant about a failing relationship and I was trying to "give her strategies." Yes, I now understand my suggestions were invalidating, I was uncomfortable with her public outbursts--actually I would have been uncomfortable even in private, I was coming from an intellectual place and not supporting her emotionally and to her way of thinking, I was behaving "like a man in trying to fix things, rather than hearing her out."

So, it got me thinking that yes, I probably would have been diagnosed as having Aspergers when I was younger. I was an only child, had a fairly normal life until my mother lost several family members in a traumatic accident, then I skipped a grade and the next year moved to a higher socioeconomic neighborhood, where I was shunned by my peers. For the next several years, I was sort of a recluse, with health issues and had little outside interaction, other than being with my BPD mother and my father, who tried to make up for all the ways my mother lacked.

As a result of this, I had tremendous social anxiety, developed repetitive behaviors which soothed me, became a very good student, but had about zero social life outside the classroom. I look back at it now and I think so much of my behavior was due to not having role models to learn from. I was so inappropriate at times because I didn't know better. It's taken me much of my adult life to learn social skills that most twelve year olds are well versed in. Had I not actively struggled to gain some emotional intelligence, I think it likely that I would have been diagnosable as Aspergers.

So how much is socialization, or lack of it, and how much is hereditary? And when a child is smothered by a BPD mother, the programming from her negative traits becomes part of the child's worldview. And unless that child actively rebels, as I did, and rejects that limited worldview, then it's likely that child will have some sort of mental illness diagnosis at some point if they violate social norms.

Certainly both in a variety of combinations from case to case.

S13 is just below genius IQ but gets D's and F's. Has no control of emotions, no impulse control, and is afraid of anyone he sees as equal or better than him. He would rather play legos with 7 and 8 year olds than do things with kids his own age. Lives in a fantasy world. Very much like my wife when she is off center.

D11 is extremely well adjusted and mature for her age. Strait A student, cheer leader, alter server, volunteers at an animal shelter and a soup kitchen. Rolls her eyes at mom's BPD antics. (though they have all but disappeared as of late!)        

Not a good case for the socialization argument in this house, but that could be quite different for another family.

If you were all the time thinking, "I wish she would hurry up, I am going to miss the NASCAR race/baseball game/Monty Python marathon/etc... ." you have us pegged.  :)

Going back to the beginning of the post, CF's husband is a retired, Ivy League educated civil attorney who slips into fantasy about being a famous biker. Brilliant man who acts like a little kid at times- perfect Asperger's candidate. But it looks like he did OK in life to me.

The cognitive instability is part of BPD, too. Planning a fantasy life where they are the center of attention... .  and being distraught that they aren't 'the one' to get that life. They are stuck in the life that they have.

I've had friends whose children had ASD's -- there was a big difference in how they act around others and how children whose issues are fear of abandonment, also from experience. ASD has trouble distinguishing social/facial clues, but they don't automatically assume that everything is negative.

Funny, my husband was describing our son as almost an Aspie -- he isn't. He probably has some sensory processing issues and unique perspectives, but he is perfectly socially appropriate and tears up at highly tender moments (like during his wedding). He also isn't that highly detailed - he overlooks some of the more mundane things. He likes abstract and sequential thoughts and doesn't really care if he is accepted or rejected.

Husband, on the other hand, has always been fearful of what others think of him (encouraged by his parents). He was quick to latch onto others, especially romantically. He doesn't get facial clues either, but he will assume anything not smiling is negative and a rejection of him. The anxiety is palpable.

Heck, I think "I wish h would hurry up, I'm going to miss the game" myself. (or worse, I really need to get to sleep)

It's fascinating the range and variability of what indeed is "normal" and I wonder how much Aspergers or BPD can be changed through learning. I think of Temple Grandin, who overcame severe autism to become an accomplished university professor, designer of cattle handling equipment and speaker on autism, who travels the world sharing her unique understanding of the different way autistic individuals process information.

"Parents get so worried about the deficits that they don't build up the strengths, but those skills could turn into a job," said Grandin, who addresses scientific advances in understanding autism in her newest book, "The Autistic Brain: Thinking Across the Spectrum." "These kids often have uneven skills. We need to be a lot more flexible about things. Don't hold these math geniuses back. You're going to have to give them special ed in reading because that tends to be the pattern, but let them go ahead in math."

I think an important point that empath makes is: "ASD has trouble distinguishing social/facial clues, but they don't automatically assume that everything is negative." This is quite different from BPD, where paranoia about being criticized or judged seems to be characteristic.

In my own case, I believe that I missed out on learning how to understand social cues and facial expressions because I had very limited exposure to other people, other than to my own BPD mother and my father, who was gone much of the time with work. Also I believe that she instilled in me the fearfulness that she felt and it took me a long time to realize that was something I had learned, rather than something that was my true nature.

I think I inherited an ultra sensitivity from my mother. I live in a rural area because I cannot tolerate loud noises, traffic, lots of people, too much stimulation. Being in a city blows my circuit breaker and I need to retreat to a quiet space. I find it intolerable to be in a congested city for more than a day and it makes me feel extremely anxious and depressed.

I'm fascinated by what sorts of genetic heritage those of us who had a BPD parent might have received. Cole, you are fortunate that your daughter is well adjusted and an achiever. Undoubtedly she has found strength in you and can see how dysfunctional her mother has been in the past. For so many of us who've been raised by a BPD mom, it has been ultra-confusing. I used to say that I didn't know which mom I'd be encountering on a particular day--the nice one or the scary one.

"Going back to the beginning of the post, CF's husband is a retired, Ivy League educated civil attorney who slips into fantasy about being a famous biker. Brilliant man who acts like a little kid at times- perfect Asperger's candidate. But it looks like he did OK in life to me."

I think so too, but he was judged so much by his narcissistic father, he feels like a failure. Even though he got into both MIT and Yale, his dad thought it was really stupid that he went to Yale. And because he went to prep school with the scions of movers and shakers, that he was just a county lawyer instead of a titan of Wall Street--his dad thought he totally wasted his education and at one point, told him he was no longer welcome in the family and that he never wanted to see him again.

I didn't truly believe how bad his dad was. I've heard a lot of stories about "mean parents" but when I finally met the old ass shortly before he died, I realized that my husband was not exaggerating how awful he was. His mother, on the other hand, was an angel.

I definitely think you are on the right track. My wife was brought up my a mother who actually told her
she might as well screw and marry the first guy who comes along, because nice guys don't marry "our kind" of people. Can't say that to a 14 year old and expect her to not feel like a failure and have poor self esteem.

W bought a new pair of white pants last week and was excited to wear them to an upcoming event. Now she won't, because it is 2 days after labor day and you can't wear white after labor day. I told her if wearing them makes her happy, then do so! She got really upset and said, "But what if my mother finds out?"  

Yes, I guarantee my MIL would use that as a way to attack her and tell her she embarrassed the whole family by wearing white after labor day. And she would bring it up over and over for years. Anything to get back at W for such an egregious, horrible act as wearing white after labor day.  

My response was, "You are 47. MIL lives 2 hours away. Who the hell cares what she thinks?" W did not respond, but I think it sunk in, if not just a bit.


I suppose I can dream... .MIL... .a hole in the ground... .

Well. Off to confession.  

Great advise. My son gets poor grades and does not do well in school. But he builds working machines out of Legos. He figures ways to power them using rubber bands or weights and gravity. No directions, no outside ideas, no blueprints. He thinks this up all on his own. 

The parenting insights that are critical here... .is to focus on where your kid is "gifted" and double down on that area.  Push them harder.  Praise.

Areas where they are knuckleheads make sure that they get truth in their life about that, but... .super critical... .remember they are kids and need "grace before truth".  They may need lots of prep work to get their heart ready to "hear" things.

My 13 year old boy many times behaves like a space cadet... .totally checked out.  The reality is that he has the ability to focus on several things at once.  He actually is paying attention and thinks very deeply about things.  His memory is fantastic!

So, I focus on that.  I focus on his achievements and every once in a while I will gently remind him to be respectful to his teachers ( and mom and dad)... .and to demonstrate with eye contact and focus that he is "showing others" how much he is actually paying attention.

I'm aware of things my wife's parents still say to her... .really breaks my heart.

FF

My husband's parents add in the God element, too. According to my husband, they told him that he needed to get married (probably 'to keep him from sinning' and that would solve his issues. His dad was both a military chaplain and a pastor and was a ACOA. So, emotional distance and verbal abuse and possibly physical abuse were part of their environment growing up. When I met my husband, his dad was attending seminary 1000+ miles from home while his brother was in high school and his mom worked full time nights. I knew then that that was a recipe for bad things happening. Brother became an erotic horror writer and alcoholic.

He went through AA and a divorce and doesn't have much contact with his parents, now, but when I see him, he seems emotionally healthier than most of the family.

My husband is the 'good, responsible child' who doesn't have problems. They think that our marriage problems are because I have a master's degree now... . 

Right now, the parents are 'praying for' our son to get his driver's license (he's 24 and is just seeing that it might be a useful thing to have) - they keep trying to pressure him toward that. Son doesn't really respond to pressure by other people; it has to be internal for him. And he is a highly paid software engineer at one of the top tech companies.


Some people's parents... . 

 
I got the "pick of the litter" from my wife's FOO... .by a long shot.

She is "little league" compared to their BPDish behavior.

FF

Well, I'm starting to think that my friend who identified me as an Aspie might be right. I found some interesting info about adult females who have Aspergers and I seem to fit a lot of the criteria. It's an under researched area since most Autistics/Aspies have been thought to be male and women have developed social strategies as they mature, to cover up non-socially sanctioned behavior.

www.help4aspergers.com/pb/wp_a58d4f6a/wp_a58d4f6a.html   Click on the chart for the "List of Female Asperger Syndrome Traits"

Here's mine: dresses comfortably, doesn't spend much time on grooming, youthful, androgynous traits, rigid in certain habits, happiest at home, artistic, highly educated but struggled with social aspects of college, does not do well with verbal instruction, anxious, sensory overload issues, hates injustice, outspoken at times, shy, prefers company of animals.

Interesting how Aspergers can be comorbid with BPD and I wonder if BPD mothers can genetically/environmentally be more prone to have Aspie kids.

Here's mine: dresses comfortably, doesn't spend much time on grooming, youthful, androgynous traits, rigid in certain habits, happiest at home, artistic, highly educated but struggled with social aspects of college, does not do well with verbal instruction, anxious, sensory overload issues, hates injustice, outspoken at times, shy, prefers company of animals.

So, basically a highly sensitive creative person... .  I could name several of my friends who are like this, but none of them would be Aspergers.

So, basically a highly sensitive creative person... .

Thanks, that's a generous way of looking at it. At this point in my life, I would agree that I don't express much externally that would identify me as an Aspy, but certainly that wouldn't have been true in my adolescence or early adulthood. Actually, anyone who has followed my posts for a while could probably see that I've been socially inappropriate, unintentionally hijacking other's threads, saying things that are not appropriate for the particular board I might be commenting on, getting a bit hot under the collar reading about a member being mistreated by a spouse--so there's that.

Reading Aspergirls: Empowering Females with Asperger Syndrome by Rudy Simone, I see so much of myself and my struggles, always feeling like an outsider, the stereotypical square peg trying to fit into a round hole. Over the years, I've made peace with it and have managed to live a very unconventional lifestyle, and thankfully, having married my current husband, want for nothing financially.

As more awareness of how Aspergers manifests in women and girls, I would bet that many quirky, eccentric, self-sufficient women may find a sense of peace and companionship learning about others who've always been outliers. It's a bit lonely when you think you're the only oddball out there.

It's a bit lonely when you think you're the only oddball out there.

Yes, it is for all of us who are 'oddballs' or outliers or in spots where there aren't a lot of other women like us. I'm glad that you are finding it helpful and insightful to understanding more about yourself. That is so important for us to be healthy, especially in relationships where there are relational difficulties and our sense of self gets distorted.

Yes, and for those of us who've had more than one BPD spouse, we experience the self-recriminations--"What's wrong with me that I did this not once, but twice--and add in a BPD boyfriend--three times!" The easy answer is having a BPD mom, but as I dig deeper, being oblivious to some social cues that wouldn't slip by someone with more emotional intelligence, I think I just didn't notice some of their dysfunctional behavior.

In retrospect, it's quite clear. I now realize some of the behavioral inappropriateness that I ignored, made excuses for, chalked up to "stress."

Thankfully emotional intelligence is a skill set that can be learned. For some, it's second nature, but for me, it takes study since I didn't have any role models as a child.

I've bristled at Notwendy's thesis that people of similar levels of emotional maturity are drawn together. I don't have a problem with this concept with my current husband, however thinking that I somehow was at the same level of my first husband who was physically abusive, adulterous, financially irresponsible, criminal, and reprehensible in general--I'd much rather believe that I had an inability to see clearly who he was at the outset of our relationship and because I have a stubborn personality, I thought I could change him into some form of his "best self."

When I finally broke up with him, I did see him clearly and wondered if he had always been that crazy and that I just hadn't noticed.

My newest revelation, as of yesterday, is that my dad was Aspergers. And I'm realizing how intolerant of extremely emotionally expressive people that I've been. It's unlikely that most people would be aware that I held contempt for people being "overly emotional" because I've had a lifetime of perfecting my poker face. But it's always made me feel really uncomfortable when someone has been emotional in my presence.

So, as fate would have it, I chose two highly emotional BPD husbands and one long-term boyfriend. We learn what we need to learn, I guess, even though I've been kicking and struggling the whole way.

Perhaps the lesson I've needed to understand that I don't have to join them on their roller coaster ride. I can safely watch from the ground and bless them and let them ride it out.

Same here. I have always been more logical than emotional and do not like being around people who are overly emotional. Many years in law enforcement reinforced it. My own emotions had to be turned off to perform the job properly; I was charged with enforcing the codified law of the people, not my own beliefs. And the emotions of all the people I dealt with in the course of a day have to be tuned out or I would have gone insane.      

So, here we are. Spock married to Lucille Ball. Highly illogical.

And the emotions of all the people I dealt with in the course of a day have to be tuned out or I would have gone insane.     

So, here we are. Spock married to Lucille Ball. Highly illogical.


It's a handy skill to be able to tune out other people's emotions. As a child, I learned how to do that externally, by perfecting my poker face, but it was still a gut-punch to have someone freak out in my presence, especially when I was the target.

Lately I've been able to watch my husband's mini-meltdowns without feeling as gut-punched. And it's been ironic to see him try to agitate me and presume that if I stay detached, I don't care about him.

I used to be a sucker for the guilt trip--"Oh, you don't care about me," and I'd go into reassurance mode. Of course with a pwBPD, there will never be enough reassurance in the universe to placate them. It's been very freeing not to do that on command any more.