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Sorry for posting relentlessly on here. I feel like I need advice now more than ever and I'm hoping some members can help me sort this out.

As I said in a previous post, my ex contacted me and asked if I'd get coffee with her just as friends this coming Tuesday. She has been dating someone casually for a few weeks. This is something I suspected, but it still feels gut-wrenching. I've decided to meet her, despite knowing that I'll probably feel worse afterwards since I am still looking for more. Regardless, I'm too tempted to decline. I know I'll just wonder what would have happened.

Now I'm trying to prepare myself. I feel a little conflicted about how to behave. I know not to bring up the past or any negativity. I want us to just have fun and be positive, I don't want her to have any negative association with meeting me. At the same time, I feel like I need to know how serious she is with this other person. Because if she intends on actually starting a relationship with her I know I can't be around for that. I couldn't handle it. Doesn't really seem like something I can bring up the first time we're hanging out after the breakup though... .definitely wouldn't be keeping things light.

I'm just unsure of what to do exactly. I am willing to go and see how we are together. I'm interested to see how it feels for her too. 2 months ago she said it was too confusing to be near me while she was trying to move on. I wonder if I still "confuse her" at all or if she is completely detached. So I feel like I need to go and see what happens. But what about boundaries? Am I being a total doormat hanging out with her as friends while she's dating someone else? She knows I still want to be with her. I expressed hesitance in meeting her for that very reason. Her response was, "well let's just try it and see how it goes." I know she won't throw it in my face or anything, she won't tell me anything if I ask her not to. But the real issue is that I'm worried we'll continue to hang out, I'll grow attached and then she'll decide to enter into a relationship with this new person.

I know I can't very well say that I'll only be friends with her if she doesn't get into a relationship. But at the same time that's kind of how I feel. I know what I'm able to put up with and I couldn't deal with that. I guess I'm going to see if there's anything still there, knowing that it's possible this new person may not amount to anything but a temporary distraction. But if it were to go beyond that I'd have to call it quits.

Sorry for the rambling, but I'd really appreciate any advice. I just feel like I need to be prepared.

It sounds like you still want to be with her. Given this feeling,  I imagine such a meeting will be tough on you,  especially given that she isn't likely on the same page.  


One of the key things my T said was to accept that my ex was an independent entity,  free to make her own decisions,  no matter how they looked to me (or him,  because he didn't agree that her choices were wise).

What's your goal here,  it's it for you,  or for her?  

Thanks for the reply, Turkish.

You're right, I do still want to be with her, and I think the main reason I'm going is because I just never give up this stubborn hope. She's been so hot and cold with me that I keep thinking at some point maybe she'll change her mind about me once again.
I do think it'll be really hard on me, but I've had so much regret lately... .I'm worried I'll also end up regretting not going and seeing what happened.

Ultimately my goal is to work on a r/s with her again, but I suppose that's not really accepting her decisions. I guess I just saw this as an opportunity to change her perception of me, and to start having positive associations with me again. If we have a good time, maybe some of those negative feelings I've triggered over the years could be replaced with better feelings. I think that was the main reason things ended. She couldn't get over those fears I triggered.

My gut instinct here is that she is going to try and press you into triangulation.

Thus is what happened to me, mine left, replaced me, then wanted to be "friends" and pretty soon after that started having issues with the new guy and started to idealize me again.

This period was actually worse than our relationship, she would cheat on the new guy with me, then go back to him and say she couldn't see me anymore, I'd be heartbroken then she'd come back again.

It was a terrible time, beware the damage to your psyche, being triangulation can cause

Proceed with caution, JJ. 

Even were your ex not somwhere on the BPD spectrum, it would be a difficult thing to meet in those kinds of circumstances. Meaning, that even if the ex were emotionally stable and therefore able to be conistently and genuinely honest with you and aware of her own intentions, it would be difficult to meet to "see what happens".

In that (ideal) scenario, you would each be open about your feelings and anxieties and respect those feelings. And not just in the moment, but overall and longterm. The usual "rule" is to give each other space to heal after a break-up. But that's if things were clean and "normal". 

When dealing with someone who is BPD, we've got to remember that feelings=facts and that those feelings can rapidly change. We also do well to remember that someone with BPD is attachment oriented and will do just about anything to preserve attachments. That includes the so-called boundary busting behaviours, which appear to take into little account the emotional states or realities of another - there's just too little room for them. 

Your curiosity and hope may drive you to meet regardless, I can understand that, but you might benefit from reviewing the lessons here on the board before that meeting. Refreshing your memory on BPD traits ( https://bpdfamily.com/content/what-borderline-personality-disorder) and keeping them in mind during your meeting.

Good luck and let us know how you get on!

One more thing, it is honest and acceptable, to say something like " I still have feelings for you and am working that out. However, given that I do, I have to say that staying in friendly contact while you are seeing someone else, is just going to be too hurtful for me. I'll need to take some time to work out my own feelings.  "

If you truly mean that, that will be a healthy boundary that you need to respect for yourself. Don't expect someone else to respect it, however.

It's funny how the replacement or other guy or ex is always a "friend" or someone they're seeing "casually". I guess that's what my ex must have told the others about me.

At the end of the day she is seeking some one else. I've been in your exact same position.  I went to meet her with the end result being blamed for the failed relationship and basically for her to see how deep our attachment was. I ended up sleeping with her where we made it clear it was no strings attached   Big mistake on my end.  She didn't change infact this time around after the initial meeting her BPD just got worse and I felt regretful for meeting up with her. Her seeing someone else should be a major reason not to see her. Unless you're willing to play wonderful games to fight for her love.

Thank you all for the warnings/advice.

Infern0, that does sound awful. As painful as the typical push/pull is, it's so much worse knowing that when she pushes, she's off with someone else. This is something I've never experienced before and never thought I'd have to. I can't believe she's actually dating... .it's a nightmare.

VitaminC, I do think I'll have to let her know how I feel and create some boundaries for myself. I will also go through a little refresher course with the tools on here prior to meeting her. I just wasn't sure if I should say that right off the bat, or if that would be too off-putting for an initial friendly meeting. I know that is something I need to do for me, but I also want her to have a positive association with me again. I don't want her to leave feeling like the time spent together was too heavy/serious. Because although I need to set boundaries, I still ultimately want her to want to be around me again.

Rayban, I'm sorry that you experienced the same. I appreciate your words of caution. I definitely don't want to play games, and absolutely no competing with others. I wouldn't have done that after 1 month, much less 7 years. I can't say I wouldn't take her back if she made that choice on her own (probably stupid on my part, but I'm still pretty wrapped up in her unfortunately).

I will of course keep you posted.

I'm going to echo Rayban here.  When my ex met my replacement she was a new girl in a social group I ran. We hung out with her a few times and she mentioned where she lived. One day I asked my now ex to drive past her neighborhood strictly because I was curious how close she lived, I really liked her and thought we'd be friends.

Well my ex was all for it and then she said she was tired and we could do it another time.  

Three days later she was dating this person and now lives with her.

The point I'm trying to get to is this... .the day my ex dumped me this new girl was telling me my relationship had been over for awhile and that my ex and I were just friends. Wtf? I had just thrown my gf a huge birthday a week earlier.

They tell the other people stories to manipulate. Your ex might be dating casually... .four of five people.  Or she hit a rough patch and in an attempt not to be lonely is planning to use you until she secures another attachment.

Every time my girlfriend left me it was for someone else and she'd come back when it didn't work out or the other person got sick of her bs.

Be careful. I've never heard a story of this ending well.

Thanks Pretty Woman. I'm sorry that you had this happen as well.

I know meeting her is a big risk, my heart's been beating like crazy tonight just anticipating it... .I can't imagine what it will be like tomorrow. But the main reason I keep leaning towards it is because I have such obsessive thoughts. I know that if I don't go I'll just wonder and wonder and wonder. What would have happened... .

This may be a case of learning things the hard way, because you all have given me plenty of warning. It's probably frustrating to watch. I'm going to make sure to keep my boundaries set. If she enters into a r/s with this new girl, I have to go back to strict NC. I do wonder what she tells new people about me, or if she simply pretends I never existed. She did delete all evidence of me on social media (which was an enormous task I'm sure... .) and even cropped me out of photos and re-uploaded them w/o me in them. That I found especially odd.

I really appreciate the advice (even though I know I'm being stubborn)... .I am taking it into account and using it to prepare. I wish there were some more positive stories when it comes to this.

If I were to give you one piece of solid advice, it's if any red flags come up and your gut tells you something doesn't add up, then walk. Don't ignore them. This is easier said then done as you'll be excited to see her, and you're heart might take over hearing whatever it needs to bring you back in.

Keep your head straight. Never forget why you are meeting her and what you would like this meeting to be about.

I wish you a good meeting with her and hope everything works out for the best.

Thanks so much. I would truly be lost without you guys. Will update you all tomorrow. 

Well obviously I didn't go yet, but I got myself all worked up.

I saw a picture of our cat (that I got her for one of our anniversaries) that she just posted on Facebook. The new girl "liked" it, along with every other God d-mn thing my ex posts. I know it sounds trivial but it just got my imagination going. Makes me think she's been over there a lot, it just has me feeling sick. I wonder how "casual" it really is if this girl is so quick to hop on board everything my ex writes/shares. Really wish social media didn't exist sometimes. 

I without a doubt cannot be in contact if they continue to see each other. So I guess I'll just let today play out and try to be cool, but keep my eyes open and see what happens going forward. If she still wants to pursue this other girl after seeing me, I guess that will be my answer.

Your heart is yours to risk JJ ... but I question why you are doing this to yourself?  You are setting yourself up to get hurt again.  Further the requirements you have stated for continued contact with her are unreasonable IMO and will be categorically rejected if you should state them.


If you don't look at it or use it then it effectively won't exist.   :)

What do you think is unreasonable? I just know I can't deal with watching her with someone else. I can watch her "date casually" but I feel like I have to step away if it's more than that.

And you're right, I know she wouldn't respond well if I said that, so I won't. But it's a boundary I've set for myself.

I was under the impression that borderlines do not date casually. They NEED to attach to someone to feel whole. So if she isn't attached to you then maybe this new person is more than casual and she is just telling you it is casual because borderlines also hate to lose attachments. But im just thinking out loud here.

Nothing unreasonable with this ... .what is unreasonable is I get the impression you want (expect?) her to remain single in order to be friends with her.   This is not a reasonable condition for friendship ... .is it?  In this particular case with respect to you and your emotional well being it is though.  Dig deep here JJ and be honest with yourself.  Understanding the true motivations and expectations here is critical for your well being.

What caused me to stop the ambiguous thing I was doing with my ex was that I realized I didn't want to be "that woman," who is checking on line sites to see what the "real" status of my bond with the person I loved might be.  I didn't want to have to do research on who he really loved and what my status was.

Well I saw her. For 7 hours.

We had a great time, but her position remains the same - just wants to be friends. So ironic considering she always used to tell me she could never be my friend.

She said that since her mom died, she needs new things, new people, etc in her life. She lives in a place her mom never saw, has friends her mom never met, etc... .and this makes her feel better because she's not constantly comparing it to how it was with her. Her mom was never in those places/knew those people so I guess the void is less apparent in some way. Her life is entirely different.

I didn't bring it up, but over the course of 7 hours, our "friendship" came up and how dating would effect that. I told her how I felt. She told me that the new girl is nothing, and I asked her if she (the new girl) would say the same. She said yes, that the new girl is "all over the place" and doesn't appreciate my ex. She told me that if I were to date she doesn't know how she would react - her "blood might boil". She also told me that her new best friend is narcissistic and that her family doesn't really care about her right now. She described herself as a lone wolf.

She said that she feels better when we're not engaged romantically because her head is more clear - I attribute that to the fact that she's not so worried in analyzing my behavior, what I'm doing, who I'm talking to, etc. She said that she still has feelings for me but that she needs to move on. I was honest and told her how I felt about our dynamic - it's the first time we've ever had boundaries as to what is appropriate in 7 years. I'm so used to being a certain way with her. She said that we weren't going to be romantic anymore and that no moves would be made. Then she also made a comment about how she is not bound by anyone right now and is free to do whatever she wants.

Neither of us wanted to leave and she seemed so happy to hang out. She kept saying how she felt like she was unleashing weeks of information because no one else talks to her like I do. Occasionally she would smile and say, "See, I think we can be friends." I got a little emotional at one point, and she felt bad so she said that she would leave it in my hands as to whether or not we hung out again. This is so hard. On one hand, my pathetic hope prevails and I'd like to weather it out and see if she ever changes her mind about me. On the other hand, it's so painful being close to her but being pegged as a "friend" after all of our history. I'm exhausted, so that's all for now - maybe more to come tomorrow.

Thanks for any thoughts, as always. 

More of this is about you than you think.

It's obvious from your post that you feel powerless, confused, not sure what you want.

You need to figure that out. What do YOU want?

Once you establish that, it's a start.

If you do want her back, I wouldn't worry so much about what she's currently doing, if you want her back you have to be the most attractive option, that's really all you can do.

But again.you need to try and clear your mind, as hard as that is, because right now you are not putting yourself in a good position.

She is hooking you emotionally.  

She knows you are in love with her and point blank told you she only wants to be friends.  She's cleared herself so she can date whomever she wants, parade whomever she wants right in front of you and she knows it will bother and hurt you.  

My favorite part of this was when you mention she thinks "her blood will boil" if you started dating.  

Right there she is baiting you. She doesn't want you but god forbid you find someone who does and are happy.

Seven hours? What did you talk about? She sounds like she is lonely and needs soothing.  If the other girl she "was" with is so terrible why do they still hang out?

Not to be a cynic but you are being triangulated. My fear is you are going to get burned again.

She now knows how much control she has. It's very worrisome.

I hope you keep coming back here, posing and talking with members. It's almost impossible to be friends with a BPD. If you think you were treated poorly as a lover, it's only worse when there is 0 commitment.

Good luck!
 

I think I can imagine the feeling, JJ. I have been in a position that sounds quite similar - not with my BPDex but someone else some years ago. We too had been in a relationship for a long time and then couldn't be anymore. Moving from that to an actual friendship took me years.

What I wish now that I had understood and done then is to respect what the person was saying to me and to respect the boundaries that they were communicating to me. I would wish for myself that I had stepped back and worked on myself and understanding my own needs and boundaries better - rather than allowing myself to remain in a self-created limbo (as I described it at the time) for many months.

It sounds like your meeting went well, from what you describe. I'm hearing a person who's thought about what she needs and wants and is working hard to make those things a reality (meaning your ex).

I really feel for you. That's pretty much exactly what I dealt with with my ex. We have the most wonderful r/ship. We could and did easily spend 7 hours talking about anything and nothing. I was the person he could tell anything, the one he felt safe with. But, he announced unilaterally, it would not be a romance. Even though it had the cadence and rhythm of a great romance. We'd be better as friends. At some point he moved cities suddenly and when I asked why, and pointed out it would come at a cost, meaning, would limit how far we could go with our amazing r/ship, he said the thing about new people, places and things. And his freedom is a huge value for him.

In the end, when he began seeing others, that didn't work for me, I set boundaries, he was terribly hurt and sad, and has spent years trying to get me resume the role you were in yesterday. I'm very important to him--I have a role people who are not love avoidant would only give to their partner. But like your ex, it's super important to my ex that I NOT be his partner. It's more closeness than he can tolerate; my knowledge of old painful stuff is at odds with his hope to have someone look at him with only approval and positive thoughts (not that I actually did otherwise but he knows I know); he wants freedom to keep looking; etc.

I find it super sad, obviously, because our thing is as good and close as what you describe. Yet for him that does not translate to "partner," almost the better we get, the more emphatically he needs to reserve the idea of finding and falling in love with someone else.

Super tough situation. In my experience it's not necessarily going to be true that you are the best choice ergo she chooses you. It could be the opposite: you are the best choice ergo she doesn't. Performing your wonderful connection in hopes she changes her mind can be a variant of performing perfectly trying to win someone's love. For me, it feels really bad.

If you won't participate in the friends scenario I wouldn't be surprised if she makes an appeal more pitched to what she knows you want; you are very valuable and she won't let you go easily. But in the end I suspect she's telling you who she is now: partnership with you no longer feels good and freedom is the most important thing.

This dynamic is the hardest thing I've ever dealt with, bar none. My ex and I aren't in touch anymore but I tried everything first to find a way that it could work for us both, including accepting his terms and trusting in organic growth to take us somewhere good.

Sorry it's so hard.

Been there as well. It really is the hardest thing ever. Unrequited love sucks.

Or even harder: requited but unacknowledged love. The fact that these connections ARE seen as unique and so special and they do invest in them ... .makes the situation ultra confusing. (Not all pwBPD do this pattern but it is a distinct sub-dynamic and is confusing to the non-partner because it's so tantalizingly close to the real thing. Except due to the disavowal and lack of commitment, also a million miles away.)

It sound to me like she has found the place where she feels emotionally safe.  She can be "friends" but as soon as it becomes emotionally more than that she is no longer in her safe zone.  

This is where she is emotionally comfortable being right now JJ, and it may always be that way.  Show your love, caring and respect for her by allowing her to feel safe, even if it means you will only be friends.  If you can't handle this emotionally then you will need to put the relationship behind you, knowing you did what you could.

I have to say I think it's a little more insidious than that, if not in intent, then at least in effect.  Because it is not really "just" friends.  JJ's ex gets all the benefits of being deeply loved by someone who knows her well, with no accountability or acknowledgement, and while she seeks other partners.  I don't know that it's a situation of "try to be her friend, and if you can't ... .".  At least, for me it was not that simple.  Because what my ex wanted wasn't really being friends.  If it had been, I would have done that.  He wanted much more intimate access.  The 7 hour session yesterday is indicative of a similar desire for more-than-friends, just without accountability.  As a friend of mine said, it's like emotional FWB.

JJ, it also occurs to me that it's worth saying that your ex's stance -- "I want new people who weren't part of my life when my mom was alive" -- while needing to be taken seriously as her actual position/feeling, is a deeply immature approach to human connection.  I don't recommend ignoring it or hoping it goes away; but please do bear in mind that it's the relationship version of a geographic.  "New people" generically are a short-cut for trying to get away from who she is and has been.  It's not a healthy way of dealing with those issues.  Just saying, lest you start thinking that makes some kind of sense.

I totally agree PaC.  It is incredibly selfish, one sided, insensitive, thoughtless, insidious, etc... .  My ex did the same to me the first time she discarded me.  In her mind she was no longer obligated to the relationship and therefore not accountable for her actions regardless of how wrong they may be.  We were still "together" and had agreed on being mutually exclusive but I don't think that agreement applied to her because she kept reminding me we weren't "together".  It is so very clear now what she was doing ... .in retrospect ... .and so very insidious and deeply hurtful.

I'm not condoning what she is doing but rather trying to help JJ find some middle ground where she can either choose to continue and engage or let it go.  Her ex has made it clear she is not going to be tied down by the obligations of a relationship.  It is now JJ's decision if she wants to live with those conditions or not.

Hey JJ,

Just a few thoughts on your encounter yesterday.  I believe her ultimate goal is to have you chase her. I think she wanted to present herself as someone who has a better life and is happy now that she no longer with you. It's suppose to invoke guilt in you at the same time show you what you are missing. Continuing this"friendship" will lead to triangulation with her other friend who she's probably going to tell how madly in love you are with her thus invoking jealousy in that other person.  She'll have you competing for her love. That's a win/win for the person with BPD.

On the having her blood boil if you start seeing other people is in her mind that she owns you. In her head you are to remain available till she decodes to pick your number. Or be that friend she calls just to vent or when she needs soothing. Also part of the anger or fear is that you will find someone better then her. She cant have that.

Last thing to ponder and this took some time for me to accept is that you are still dealing with someone with an untreated serious mental disorder.  Sure you have moments where she reasons like anyother person, but ultimately if left untreated she's destined to repeat the same patterns in her relationships. She will also not change her behaviour.

You will obviously make your decision and after having thought about your sample 7 hour encounter are you willing to have this person in your life at any cost. She will take up massive space in your head not to mention all the tiring non sense and games that shell play to fill the huge void in her life.

Thanks so much for all of your replies - you all have great advice/insight... .can't imagine where I'd be without it. I only have a minute before class right now, so I'm just going to reply to a couple questions and write more later.


We mainly just caught up, talked about what we've been doing and frivolous things like that. We did talk about some more serious things as well, obviously. I hadn't planned on doing that, but she brought up being friends and I kind of hesitated and explained my concern (that she's detached quicker and I will end up more hurt). I think that's when she brought up the other girl. She had been telling me earlier that she feels like people take her for granted/don't appreciate her. She believes that she puts forth more effort than other people do. She then indicated that this girl is one of the people who falls into that category. So honestly I'm not sure why she's hanging out with her still if that's the way she feels. I certainly didn't ask. I think that she's just really trying to pedal forward and move on, so she's making herself do this and trying to pursue something because the prospect of "new" is so appealing to her right now.

I do think she is lonely - she told me that many times she wanted to call me up for a drink or something but that she didn't know how I would receive it. I think I'm still her safety net.


I really do want her back, but she has expressed the fact that she is moving on and that our relationship is no longer a romantic one. What more can I do aside from hoping that she may change her mind one day?

If you want her back, you need to be the most attractive option.

That means working on yourself; getting happy and confident again.

The attitude you currently have us never going to bring her back.

Sorry to be blunt but sugar coating it won't help you.

That's okay, I need that... .I don't mind you being blunt. Just appreciate the advice.

But what exactly do you mean by my current attitude? You mean because she knows that I'm not seeing anyone else and am saddened that she is? Do you think that comes across too needy? I was hoping that wouldn't come up at all for that very reason... .I really didn't want her to see me looking anything other than happy.

I felt like texting her already today but I don't want to look desperate. Kind of feels like a game, but when she's off loving her new independent lifestyle I don't want to crowd her and seem like I don't have anything else going on.
 

Comes across as weak, needy, insecure, desperate.

Not the way to be. The attitude you need is that your doing great and if she wants to come back that's awesome, and if she doesn't your fine with that too.

I've been on and off with my ex to know:

When I'm doing well and I'm happy she wants me back

When I'm not doing well and I'm not happy she tries to friendzone me.

Thanks, that makes sense.

I guess my initial thoughts were that if she thought I had completely moved on though, she would just be like okay great, let's both move on and see other people and be friends. I thought she should know that I was still interested, because if I'm not, that would just validate her decision to pursue others. But perhaps I had the wrong outlook.

So in your opinion then, should I take some time before/if I reach out to her again? Or is any time acceptable as long as I have the right attitude?

Take the time and get the right attitude. That might take a while but being in contact in a bad state will just make things worse.

Last time I got mine back I agreed to be "friends" just to smoothe things over and not have negativity then I just went on my own buzz for a while.

Didn't contact her or anything. Just focused on myself, gym, studies etc and getting myself right.

After a while (2-3 months) she wanted to meet up so we went out for food and just me being relaxed and in a great place let the old chemistry come back and it was easy.

I mean I messed up again by putting too much focus on the relationship AGAIN but it got me back in the door.

The key to it is to not be attached to an outcome. Take care of YOU and the rest will fall into place

Hello.  Breaking contact with an ex you want is so hard!  You can get literally addicted to that person, even when you know they are playing with your heart!
  Be careful.  All of us girls know guys want what they can't have.  Some girls use this fact to drive guys crazy.  This push/pull sparks your attraction.  She doesn't sound ready for real love, more like she loves attention.  And she isn't your friend.  That behavior isn't friendly.

I was trying to decide today what to do next. As I said, she left all future contact in my hands. But I've started to feel really awkward about that. Although I'm hesitant about being "friends", the unbalanced dynamic regarding contact feels odd. I thought about just telling her that she can contact me if she'd like to get together again... .that she doesn't have to wait for me to do so first.

I worried that that might be surrendering any power I have too easily, but at the same time I can always decline when she suggests we get together. I just don't really like the thought of her waiting if she wants to contact me. I don't have to answer, or follow through. But I don't know, I could be looking at this the wrong way.

Any thoughts?

If you want her to contact you, just ghost her for a week.  Guaranteed that you will hear from her.  As I mentioned previously she wants you to chase her. That's when she will have all the power over you. Now if you just lay low, she will feel like those 7 hous she spent with you meant nothing to you. She cant handle that.

Now why you want her to contact you is a whole different thing. Don't see many benefits in wanting contact with an ex who already seems to be involved with someone else, and wants you friend zoned?

We had 2 cats together, so when we split I got one and she got the other. I brought something small for her to give to our other cat when I saw her on Tuesday.
So I sent her one message since we got together just asking how the cat liked the toy.
She replied, I replied once more, and that was it.

The thing is, she wants to be friends and hang out still. So I know she would be receptive if I invited her somewhere (or at least I assume so, unless she's really messing with me).
But we agreed after last time that I should be the one to initiate since I was hesitant about having a r/s as friends. She said she didn't want to keep asking me to get together in the future if I was uncomfortable with it, so the ball is in my court.

I thought that was fair, but now it makes me feel uncomfortable... .I think if she wants to contact me she should, if she wants to get together she should ask, and I can always decline. So that's really the only reason I wanted to tell her that it's okay for her to do that. And that she doesn't need to wait for me to take the first initiative next time. This all feels like a game - the overanalyzing, waiting, holding out on texting, ignoring, etc. It just stresses me out, I wish we could both just be authentic and if we feel like talking to the other person do it.

Rayban, I see what you're saying about the ghosting. But let's say I make no further contact with her now... .no future texts or attempts to get together. (The only thing I have said so far anyways was about the cat, nothing more). Perhaps that would disappoint her, but why would she contact me if the agreement was for the ball to be in my court now? I don't really think she would because that would be breaking the agreement and she's generally pretty stubborn. She told me that during our 2 month NC period, she wanted to contact me many times but didn't think she should. So she's pretty strong-willed.  I guess I just wanted to attempt to alleviate the mind games a bit, and say okay let's just be on even ground here - no one has more power than the other, we can both contact each other, if I don't want to get together with you I'll just say so and vice versa. 

Does that seem like a decent idea, or do you think I'm just handing over too much power then? The goal was to give us equal leverage, no one has anything over the other. But I do worry that the ball is finally in my court for once, and I'm not taking advantage of that enough. The problem is, I've always been more comfortable with a balance, not this uneven playing field.

Note the bold.  This suggests it was never even to begin with.  Do what you need to do in order to maintain control over your own well being.  If that means keeping the ball in your court for now then that is OK.

I don't know this woman, or how manipulative she can be, but keep your eyes open here JJ.

Thanks C. Stein. I hope I didn't lose control already by texting her about the cat. I was genuinely just curious and not trying to initiate anything else. But I do worry that when she knows she has me, she'll treat me worse. She has already discovered that she can get away with so much... .among that, calling me after 2 months NC and still being received so well. I'm going to hold off now for a while and think about how I want to proceed with this.

Our would-be anniversary is this coming Tuesday, the 18th, so that's causing a lot of feelings as well... .as it will be the first we haven't celebrated together since 2009. 

She will contact you because her ego won't accept that you spent 7 hours with her and not peep about the encounter since. You are right this is game playing and that's never good. I understand you have an agreement with her, but you also have the ability to change your mind after mulling over your encounter.  

Think about what's best for you. If you're ok with a friendship with a person you still love, and are willing to accept a friendship in the guise of getting to see her once in a while, then by all means stop over thinking and just call her. Just remember she might not share your feelings, and there is no depth to the hurt that could cause when you are with her.

I also don't know this woman, and perhaps she absolutely means well, but if she truly a person suffering with BPD it will never be about you. From what I understand,  she also seems to be with someone else. If you care for her and believe in something more then just friendship with her, then the ball is in her court. Your involvement at this point with another person involved has all the makings of a recipe for disaster.

That's why I suggest let her come to you. Don't spend your time waiting on her. If she does, then Cleary state what you want if its more then a friendship.  In the mean time go on living your life.

I think it is good that you are playing it "close to the vest" right now.  Protecting yourself is paramount.  

The problem I have with manipulation and control is intent.  

Some people knowingly and actively do it.  They know if they say or do something ... .it will produce a desirable response.  The conscious intent here is to directly manipulate and control the other person.  They know exactly what they are doing.

Some people do it subconsciously, a learned behavior over time.  The things said or done are more or less habitual and the reasons are varied.  There is no conscious intent to manipulate and control the other person.  They simply aren't aware that is what they are doing.

Which one of these "camps" would you say your ex falls into the majority of the time?  

I know this is a hard question because it goes a lot deeper than it appears to.  It is a question I have struggled with myself as it applies to my ex.

You're right, that is a tough question. But I don't believe she has any malicious intent at all.

I really think that this is learned behavior... .she's gotten used to coping in certain ways since she was very young, and has seen the correlation between certain actions and the responses she receives.

She's an incredibly sweet, loving and caring person when she's not triggered. Unlike some stories I've seen, she has taken responsibility for the things she's put me through, and I know she felt awful about it. That could make for a great outcome, however she still hasn't followed through with the therapy, etc. to really turn things around. What she'll do instead is put forth GREAT effort right after something major, like a fit of rage, breaking things, mania, etc. And at times I've thought she was really going to make a lasting difference. Where she struggles is with upkeep and consistency - once she feels like things are better she stops doing her therapy and the exercises they teach her, and things fall apart once again.

This is a tangent, but I guess my point is that I really don't think that she is intentionally manipulative (at least for the most part).

I have held out on making any more contact with her since the brief texting over our shared pet. But I think I'll have a really tough time not talking to her on our old anniversary. I'm sure that sounds a little crazy since we're no longer together. There's just something so sad about not speaking to her at all on a day that used to mean so much to her. And in a way, I want her to know that I remember what day it is... .even though it isn't relevant in the same way any longer.

My ex would also take responsibility for most of the stuff she has done, but it wasn't what it appeared on the surface.  Thinking back I have come to realize her apologies lacked sincerity for several reasons.  I don't think she ever felt anything she did wasn't justified.  She always found some way to excuse/justify what she did, even if she could see it was wrong afterwards.  More importantly though, I honestly don't think she ever apologized for the pain she caused me (i.e. the consequences).  I think her apologies were only to appease me so I would "forget" it.  They were issued with selfish intent not with sincere remorse.  That isn't to say she didn't feel bad for the things she did, she probably did, but I think it was less about feeling bad for the pain she caused me and more about the pain she caused herself.

This is important because she never held herself accountable for her actions/behavior/words.  By not doing this, she can never change the hurtful behavior.  The things she does might change, but the underlying thought process that leads her to do these hurtful things is the same.  I didn't see this when I was in the middle of it all, but I see it now and it has been very hard to accept for me.


I know how hard it is when those meaningful events come around.  It is a painful reminder of what was and what could have been.  At some point though we have to stop living in the past.  Regardless of what happens with your ex in the future, the past can never be recaptured.  You are strong and can make it through those tough days.  Believe in yourself.   :)

Those are good points. I guess it is really difficult to know what someone's intentions are. When it comes down to it, she could have just been trying to appease me or felt bad for hurting me because she knew hurting me would ultimately hurt her. I hate considering that option... .the girl I remember was such a sweetheart.

At the same time, she was capable of things that I could never have done to her. I hurt her too, I know, but I *always* felt remorse, and to this day struggle with the guilt leftover from it. Looking back at something she did to me just this past June, she told me the day after that she knew it was wrong, she was sorry, and that it was possibly the meanest thing she had ever done because she KNEW what she was doing and did nothing to stop it. In the past she has blamed it on mania or something else mental health related, but this time she seemed to be saying that she wasn't dysregulated in any way, just didn't really care about me. She told me it worried her that while she was doing it she didn't feel bad at all.

I really hurt her at the end of our relationship because I expressed a desire to put less pressure on our relationship, when she was at a point in life where she wanted to cling to me as tightly as she could.
I sometimes wonder if what she's done to me in the aftermath has been spiteful, or if things really have just come full circle. Because now she is the one who wants to tone down our r/s (by downgrading to friendship entirely) while I am becoming increasingly focused on her.

My intention was not to push her away however; I didn't even want to break up - I just knew it wasn't healthy and wanted it to get there first. I thought that slowly rebuilding, gaining trust again, etc. would just naturally put us back in a better spot. She didn't seem to care about working on the relationship - she just wanted it to exist and force it at any cost, because that was what she needed at that moment. I knew it wouldn't work that way because I didn't even feel like she liked me much while she was asking for our relationship to be my top priority again. I just wanted to have something genuine, while I felt like she just wanted to cut corners. I feel regret often, and wonder what would have happened if I had just given her what she wanted then even though I did not believe it would lead to the best outcome. At least we would still be together most likely. But I think there's a good chance that I would be resentful, she would still not be happy with me, and the relationship would really be no better than it was before, it would just be given more priority, meaning less time for me to focus on school, friends, family, etc.

I actually had hoped that in getting separate places, we could work on ourselves and maybe the space would help us to clear our minds enough so that we could still be together ultimately. I know that for me I have had many realizations while being apart, some that would benefit her greatly (like realizing my role in the r/s). But it's rather evident that the same realizations aren't happening on her end.

When we met on Tuesday, she actually sort of mentioned how she still has some negative feelings toward me for the way I was after her mom passed. She did also say how she knows that she "put me through hell." But went back to how she still had these negative associations with me because of her mother's passing and said how all of the feelings that transpired afterwards blend together and she ends up kind of associating them all with me. She then mentioned how when you look back at things, you have a tendency to remember the bad, which really stood out to me. I have been sitting here for months only remembering the good! I put my little rose-tinted glasses on and painted this girl out to be a saint, excusing all her behavior and recalling all of the wonderful times we had together. She apparently has been doing the opposite.

This post has turned out to be quite the tangent-filled rant, and I'm not really sure where I'm going with this, but it's good to get it out. Thanks for taking the time to read these things I think about.

Understanding intentions can be difficult, especially when someone hides meaning between their words.  The key I have found is trying to remain an objective observer to what is being said/done.  Once you internalize what she is saying/doing you run the risk of only seeing what you want to see or believe, not what is really being said/done.  I know I did this a lot with my ex because I wanted to continue to believe in the illusion I had built around her and anything that challenged that illusion eventually got dismissed. 

I understand why you hate considering this as a possibility because something like this could be seen as disorder or personal character ... .that latter being the one that is the hardest to accept.  Personally I think much of it is disorder driven but the line is fine and I think determining true intent will many times come down to "gut instinct" once you can look at it objectively.  The most important thing to remember is the words are just words.  The following behavior and actions are what really matter and can shed some light on true intent.



This is exceptionally difficult to come to terms with and also incredibly important to see this for what it is.  My ex did the same thing to me on several occasions, that being knowing doing something that would hurt me and not feeling bad for doing it.  IMO, this is entirely unacceptable behavior towards someone you love and it showed me that she did not care for my well being on fundamental level.  I allowed myself to overlook this for most of my relationship with her, but the damage to my personal self was exceptionally high and I am finally getting a grasp on just how high of a cost that was.


I was in a similar position JJ.  I felt like my ex was in a race to get to a predetermined place with me (marriage & family).  She didn't seem to care at all about building a healthy relationship.  She wanted to win the marathon without running the race.  In her haste to get to the goal line she effectively left me behind.  Like you, what I wanted was a sustainable, stable and healthy relationship but what I wanted didn't seem to matter even if it was an essential requirement for the family she was so desperate for. 


I feel the same regret at times, even now.  Sometimes I have a hard time reconnecting to how I was feeling during the last 6 months of my relationship.  What I have to keep reminding myself is that if I had allowed her to marginalize and ignore my emotional well being again, nothing would ever change.  I attempted to talk to her about what she had done that essentially destroyed our relationship to no avail.  Then I just gave up, hoping she would find a way to see what she had done, hold herself accountable for it and make a concerted effort to repair what she had broken.  She was never able to do it and continued to pretend like nothing had happened which resulted in me withdrawing more and more from the relationship and did eventually lead to resentment and bitterness.


This is the inherent problem with relationships with someone who is emotionally immature.  While the realization might occur, the ability to act on it simply isn't there because it requires an emotional maturity they don't posses.


It is important when we look at our relationships with other people we look through an objective lens.  As much as you may want to hold on to the good, the bad is also a part that needs your attention.  This is something I have struggled mightily with because I don't want to accept my ex could treat someone she claimed to love and care for with such callous disregard for my emotional well being. 

Yet I can't deny what she did and as much as I want to only see her for the good within her, she is also the person who profoundly hurt and damaged me.  For myself, it is also important that I understand that I allowed this to happen to me because I did believe in the good within her and I continually convinced myself that the hurtful things she was doing wasn't a true representation of who she really is as a whole.  It was wrong of me to do this.


This is all good clarification on how you are feeling now and were feeling during the relationship.  It is very important that you find clarity here and to make sure you aren't wearing those rose-tinted glasses as you move forward.   :)