BPDFamily.com

I have been working with my T lately and really going over some things in my head regarding my anger and hatred for my BPDexgf. I have determined several things to be true:

- I have no desire to ever see her, be in a relationship with her, hear her lying voice, or have her in my life
- I'm mostly just angry now and have nothing but disdain for her
- I'm not hung up on her, but there is something that I just can't let go of

These things I've discovered about myself have led me to determine that I know what it is that's keeping me tied to her, even as I'm in a relationship with a woman who is prettier, kinder, better in bed, and far more thoughtful. I want justice. Bottom line. I feel as though I was emotionally and mentally raped by an evil predator for 4 years. If a person was physically raped, we as a society would want justice for that crime. Why is this any different? Now, I would never minimize the scars that physical rape causes an individual and I've never personally experienced it, but the things she did to me caused me more pain and trauma than anything I've ever endured in my entire life. And this is true despite the fact that I did two tours of combat in Iraq as a medic. She trapped me in a situation that nearly killed me and forever changed me as a person. Why are there no repercussions for these crimes?

Now I know everyone will say that karma will get her and she will pay eventually because her disorder doesn't allow her to be happy. I appreciate that and understand. But, do we say that about pedophiles who were abused as children? Do we excuse serial killers because their dad sexually assaulted them as a kid? Of course the answer is no. We expect justice for these people and their crimes. Their upbringing and childhood trauma is a reason for their behavior, but it's never accepted as an excuse. We don't just count on their disorder being punishment enough and allow them to roam free to harm others. That would be ludicrous!

So that is the question for discussion I suppose. I want justice for the crimes she committed and I won't ever feel content until I see that justice handed down. Yet, I have to see her and my replacement seeming to have a great time while she works in the profession that she wouldn't have had without me. In fact, everything she has now and shares with my replacement came from me. So is it wrong to desire justice? Is it wrong to want to see her pay for her crimes? Is it wrong to want to see her relationship/life fall apart? I feel like seeing those things will help me finally let go. I can imagine it's the same feeling a family gets when a criminal who killed their loved one is sentenced to life in prison. I want her to feel the pain she caused me. I know it's somewhat sadistic, but I want her to feel the emotional pain that I suffered at her hand.

My pain will always be here in some ways. I know that. There are certain scars that will never heal, but I can't let go of my desire to see her pay for her crimes. She shouldn't just be allowed to get away with it. Her or any of the BPD's that have wreaked havoc on the members of this board.

Any thoughts? It's not anything I've ever seen discussed.

I absolutely think it should be considered some sort of crime. The sad thing is, the people who have never been through it probably can't really understand the hell we went through & why we would equate it to a crime.

I tell friends the stories & they are all genuinely shocked, but I tell them hearing the story doesn't compare to living through the hell.

I totally relate to you swampgas. I have had a hard time "letting go" and I too have seen that there is something that I just can't let go of, and it is that need for justice, for revenge. I want her to suffer and to have nothing good in life. People who destroy other ppl don't deserve to have anything good. Period.

My ex trapped me in a hell in my mind, believing that I had somehow done something wrong to HER, while she just went on her merry way. I seriously believed that I had deserved what happened to me. She beat me so far down, that I was terrified and felt so wrong to have any needs or feelings.

I have counted the months that have gone by, and I still feel so robbed of them, because I feel like I can't get back to myself, not fully. And yeah, I'm ANGRY.

sg95,

There's a lot to absorb there and, believe me, I can sympathize in some ways.  I'm a little more than three months out from my stbxw moving out.  Some anger is finally creeping in.  Hell, there have been MANY times when I've said, "25 years and this is how it ends?  I deserve an explanation!  What the F happened?  Where did my partner go?  This is INSANITY."  And it is.  She quit her job for 18 months two years ago to go to school start a new career (and had an affair during that time, she later admitted).  I worked a job I disliked to carry the insurance and did EVERYTHING IN MY POWER to make this woman's life easier each and every day we were together.  That's not an exaggeration.  For basically our whole r/s she never lifted a finger to clean and help run a household in any way.  Look where it got me - thrown away.  So the anger does feel justified in a sense, but in reality - let's face it, I was complicit.  I was the caretaker.  I ignored things I shouldn't have.  She was married when I met her and had an affair with me (not proud of this one but I was only 21).  So many red flags and I'm sure I'll untangle many, many more as time passes.  

But in the moments I'm feeling this anger, I'm consistently asking myself, "Is this helping me?" When I think about the big picture which includes my goal of (as close as possible to complete) indifference, the answer to my question is always "no".  :)o you feel the same when you picture yourself another year out?  The anger changes nothing about the past.

To explore this further, "justice" is really a grey area discussion regardless of the crime don't you think?.  What kind of punishment would satisfy you?  How would you quantify it fairly?  To say "I'm not hung up on her, but there's something I can't let go of" is a contradiction in itself.

Good food for thought, though.  I'm looking forward to your responses.

bi

 

I totally agree that the "walking away scott free" is the one thing that I just can't get over--it's just not fair. At all. There is no "justice"... .

But I am learning to not let my BPD exbf not have that CONTROL over my mind anymore. Every day of normalcy and peace and quiet... .I look in the mirror and say... .WINNING!

Hugs to you sg95. I absolutely feel the same way. But... .every day is getting better. Congrats to you for being able to move on.

BI,

Thank you for the comments. It's all good food for thought. Unfortunately I have to absolutely reject the idea that I was any way complicit in the abuse I suffered. To me that's equal to saying that a woman was complicit in being sexually assaulted because she had too much to drink at a party. She definitely made poor choices that put her at risk, but she was in no way complicit and never asked to be assaulted. The same goes for survivors of Bpdemons. No one asks to be in this situation.

I also made poor choices. I was married, but going through a separation after 15 years of marriage when I met her. I was in my mid 30's, she was 19. She was young, exciting, and full of the life I thought I had been missing. I was vulnerable at the time and allowed myself to ignore red flags. To be honest, I really didn't even know about red flags. I had been with my ex wife since I was a freshman in college. I hadn't dated anyone since I met her. I was entirely out of my element. It's almost as if she saw me as a wounded gazelle and targeted me intentionally. She wanted to see my already failing marriage destroyed. She was very intentional about it. She was very intentional about making me distance myself from my children. She seemed to be very intentional about everything. But was I complicit in the abuse I then suffered for nearly 4 years? Abuse that literally almost killed me and turned me into a shell of what I once was? Abuse that made me question everything about myself and my life? Absolutely not. I thought I had found someone who cared. I thought I had "found love in a hopeless place" as Rhianna sings. I never ever expected to endure the hell that I did and I wouldn't wish it upon my worst enemy.

I don't have the anger because it's helping me. I know it doesn't help. In fact, I was just telling a coworker today that I would pay any sum of money for a pill that would erase my memories of her and make all of this hatred and pain go away. The thing is that I can't help it. I can't not hate her and want to see justice. It's burned into my mind like the terrible memories of my hell with her. I want justice and I honestly won't feel less angry until I get it. I'm just being honest.

Justice would be an equal sentence for those who emotionally/mentally abuse their partner and those who physically abuse their partner. I don't see why it should be any different. I could easily bring dozens of witnesses and page after page of evidence into a court room. I could have any of my T's testify on my behalf. I reject the idea that there can't be any justice because the process would be too difficult. I also think that BPD parents should lose their right to be parents just like any other abusive parent.

Lastly, I realize that looks like a contradiction, but I meant it as such. I'm not hung up on her. She is an evil, demonic, dangerous predator. I'm not hung up on her as a person in any way. I'm done with her. What I can't let go of is the fact that she seems to have gotten away with her crimes without any consequences. I want nothing to do with her ever again. Just to see her lying, disgusting face would make me physically ill, but I want to see justice. I want her to be punished as any other abuser would be. This problem is getting exponentially worse as time goes on and I believe it is because there are no consequences. The mental health field finally caught on to BPD in the 80's, I think it's time the justice system also got on board.

-SG

Hi swampgas95,


Have you shared your thoughts on justice with your T? What did your T say?

One noun stands out in most posts on these boards: Hell.

After the breakup, I felt compelled to express myself in the only legal and healthy way I knew, and that was through some kind of art. Some of the comments I received were: "your darkest work yet", "feels like travelling through hell", "feels what death would feel like", "feels like the end of the world", etc.

I too felt that these type of people should be considered as criminals, especially after reading on these boards that some people who came into contact with them ended up committing suicide.

Sure, one can think of it as one's BPDx having some control over one's emotions, but that's not the actual case. It's the fact that how can anyone be allowed to do this to another person, be it X, Y or Z? It just doesn't make any sense. It seems so pointless for such a disorder to exist when it wreaks so much havoc. It's not just one person. It's a percentage of the population, and it's not limited to diagnosed cases, since un-diagnosed ones end up doing just as much damage. And they are not limiting themselves to 1 relationship either. Like many spiders weaving multiple webs at the same time.


Based on the dreams and aspirations of my subclinical BPD ex who is still married to her husband, this looks like her future (not proud of this one either, and there's no justifying getting involved with a married woman, an issue I was so against before meeting her; no matter how many lies or her version of the truth, I now believe, she fed me concerning her relationship with her husband).

SG,

Well, I guess that's where I disagree fundamentally.  IMO poor choices = being complicit or, at the very least, assuming risk.  I don't know about no one asking to be in this situation... .it's just an aspect of life.  I completely understand where you're coming from.  I didn't know I got hit by a truck running a red light at 100mph until I was in a full emotional body cast.  Even THEN I started chasing down the driver to apologize for being in the crosswalk.  I see my stbx as a predator as well, but I honestly think the punishment would be pointless as she wouldn't understand she did anything wrong anyway.  I could see the court system dealing with this much the same way as "insanity" pleas are now, because they could technically argue they are emotionally minors.  Would you punish a child the same way?

I believe we can escape the fallout pain easier than they can in the long run, but will we ever really know?  Here's to hoping both of us can let go and move on... .

bi

I too want justice

The best justice for my exgf is my appithy for her, her life, her problems, her illness, her misery.

I wouldn't spit on her if she were on fire, and I am drop dead serious. She means less than nothing to me.

And apparently the majority of people who truly know her, feel pretty much the same.

She had to stop going in bars around my town because she had so many people wanting to take her out back and beat her. I didn't understand before, I understand all too well now. This was before we dated. Her brother called her names that would curl your hair, guess she burned him too.

The 2 suicide attempts she made when we first met, I and her sister in law were the only people who showed up. Her own mother has been hurt by her so much, she didn't even care.

And still she's out to destroy the innocent, a precious 2 year old who she said is her "miracle" baby. Spends his money on her fun and don't even care how he is or where he is, just objects, nothing more

Mutt,

I have talked to him, but at the time I had my last session, I was still really just focused on the anger. I didn't understand that it's not anger because I have feelings for her or anger towards her directly, it's anger because these people get to continue committing their crimes and go completely unpunished as they seek out their next victim. They leave a trail of destruction behind that impacts not just the relationship partner, but also children, family, friends, finances, careers, and so many other things. This is a criminal act in any other situation, I don't know why it isn't in the case with BPD's.

I honestly get more out of this board than I do in my therapy sessions. I tend to do a lot of work on my own, so therapy sessions move too slowly. My T did have me choke the sh#t out of a box of kleenex and pretend it was her. He wanted me to say everything I wanted to say to her, to the box of kleenex. I honestly just felt silly. I just didn't understand what my anger was at the time. It wasn't towards her. I could care less about her. It's towards a system that allows people like her to roam the earth destroying the lives of everyone around them.

Thanks for all of the comments and conversation. It's good (in a strange way) to see that I'm not alone in feeling this way. I'm somewhat discouraged by those who don't see the need to hold these individuals accountable. I understand the need to move on eventually, and I respect everyone's personal views, but I also think that their should be some accountability. If not, this will just continue to happen and we will see more and more new members finding this site.

Just to clarify, mine is more a political argument than a personal, mental health argument. I am one man, but we on this forum and others are many. We have endured this hell on earth and survived. We should be proud of that achievement. Many unfortunately don't survive it. But we also have a responsibility in my mind. We owe it those who haven't been directly impacted by one of these creatures to raise the alarm while they are still unaffected. We should be telling our children and educating our friends and family. We need to raise awareness.

I actually just saved a close friend from getting sucked in by a borderline. I saw all of the signs because of my experiences. He was just barely scratched by her claws, and even he started to understand the depth of evil these individuals are capable of. He has told me that he owes me his life for pulling him out of that fire before it consumed him. I honestly believe him as she was one of the most vicious BPD's I've ever seen. Even just limited contact with her for less than 2 weeks had a significant impact on him.

I don't say any of that to toot my own horn. I don't think I'm special, I just think I'm "awake" to the fact that these predators walk amongst us, out in the open. They are in our schools, our businesses, our churches, our careers, on online dating sites, or even at the local coffee shop. I know that we may not get immediate justice in the legal system, but each of us can make a difference by spreading the word and telling our stories. If a friend or family member was about to accidentally walk out in front of a bus, we would stop them. We should be doing the same with those on the precipice of a BPD "relationship." Unfortunately some won't listen. My friend could have avoided any pain by listening to me up front, but I was there to catch him when everything came crashing down.

I guess I'm feeling a little philosophical tonight, but I just think we should all be working together to make a change and find justice for all of us harmed by these people. I see so much great support on this site for people struggling with all phases of BPD damage. This really is a family of people who care about each other. I also know that if you had asked me what BPD was 8 months ago, I wouldn't have had an answer. That's where we can make a real impact. We can shine light on their darkness before they are able to snatch their next victim. We can expose them and make sure they can't hide behind their facade anymore. We can be proactive in this fight. As survivors, and the only people who can really understand what it feels like to be in BPD hell, we owe it to the world and the people in our lives. There enough of us on this site alone to make a huge impact.

Hi swampgas95,

Let me propose this, let's say that you suffered from BPD and having mental illness was a criminal act, would you share knowing that you would be jailed? Would it just motivate people to not seek treatment? Would people not get more sick?

Mutt,

Fair question. The simple answer is no. People should not be jailed for mental illness. However, if I were to commit a crime or harm someone because of my disorder/disease/illness, then I should be held accountable for that crime. I should be punished for my actions, not the illness.

This is a question that permeates my life on a daily basis. I am a veteran. As you probably know, many veterans (but not all) suffer from mental illness because of combat trauma. Those individuals will likely suffer from some level of PTSD, which could include anxiety, mood disorders, depression, insomnia, or any other combination of issues. Now I will be the first person to go out and defend my veteran brothers and sisters. But I will also be the first one to throw them under the bus if they commit a heinous crime against innocent people. Their PTSD is a reason, not an excuse. We are still all accountable for our actions no matter what.

I have read actual BPD testimonies on a couple of other sites. Several of these individuals state that they refuse to be in relationships because they know that they would just harm the other person. I think that's admirable. I think that is someone taking responsibility for their illness and taking steps to ensure that they don't harm someone they love. If I was a recovering alcoholic, I would probably avoid bars. I would take enough personal responsibility to not put myself in a situation where I may harm myself or others. Bpd individuals are sick. I have great empathy for them. I can understand that this is probably a really difficult thing to deal with on a daily basis. It's a shi@ty hand to be dealt in life. Most of my comments aren't aimed at the self aware BPD's who take responsibility for themselves and their disorder. The issue is with the ones that are out in the world going from victim to victim destroying everything around them. They are the ones who should be held accountable.

Everyone has different levels of self awareness, some people have more and some people have less, that could be people that suffer from mood disorders, PTSD, anxiety disorders. I agree that if you have mental illness than you should seek treatment for yourself and get better but some people don't know that they're ill. Its not like having a broken leg, you can't see, reality for that person is real for them, they don't have anything else to judge it by. What do you mean by heinous crime? Are you talking about emotional abuse? I understand its difficult to prove that in court. I'm sorry that you had to go through that with your ex.

The thought crossed my mind that I suffered from emotional abuse, I wanted to bounce back, I didn't want to get stuck and suffer any longer, I suffered enough from my ex wife. I wanted to know the truth. My ex wife displayed traits of BPD that afflicts people from all walks of life, siblings, spouses, parents. What if you had a child that suffered from BPD and your child wasn't aware that there's something off?

In the uk the law has been changed so that emotional abuse is treated the same as physical. I have yet to hear of any convictions though.

The OP compares what they went through to rape and I agree that for me it was like emotional rape. Where my problem lies is that if it was physical rape it would probably have only happened once before I left. Yet I allowed the abuse to continue. I understand the op wanting justice as I also want it but I have to admit I allowed the abuse to continue. I was compliant. I could have and should have walked sooner but I chose not to. That is where a lot of my anger came from.  The fact that my own short falls allowed me to remain in this situation. My own ego kept me angry. My shame kept me blaming her.

Totally agree with every word you have written Swampgas.

I understand the hurt. Five years with left me almost suicidal. Exhausted.
But. No. Emotional abuse is subjective. He has the exact same view you have of your ex but he has it about me!... So unless there is some objective way to analyze this emotional torment I would not want people to be punished. Especially since my ex was sick and isolated already. I wouldn't want to punish him. I wish he would deal wiyh his issues.

Intent. 

In most cases I don't think a borderline truly understands how much damage they can inflict.  They are operating blind, unable to see outside of their own emotions.  How does getting "justice" help?  Are you going to comprise your own integrity by exacting justice?  Is this the type of person you want to be, and if so, how is that any different than what she has done to you?

I understand your anger SG ... .I really do, but there is absolutely nothing positive to be gained by getting justice or revenge.

Many of us have been very angry after these relationshios, it is a very natural part of the healing process.   The problem is that 'justice' works on its own time, it doesn't happen when ever we want it to.    And to be angry and pissed off until it does happen, we'll that is just taking away from Your life, uses up Your energy.   And then what if true 'justice' never happens?  Then you've just wasted the remainder of your life being pissed off.   
Taking a real look at how we ended up here can be very painful, but ultimately I believe helps us end up being able to live happier lives.   

Not to a jail but they must put them in Mental Hospital so noone even meet them if they are not cured.
The Law must do something, so many people commit suicide for them

Too bad that Karma and "God justice" didnt exist , most evil people have a good life when good people
suffer more and more

Somebody else mentioned why did you stay? What if we don't learn from our r/s and walk right into another one that is just as bad or maybe even worse? What have we learned? You were emotionally vulnerable at that time, I can see how we wouldn't be aware of everything that's going on around us when we're feeling a lot of hurt inside but something that takes care of you to protect you from harm are boundaries. It's something that you can a look at and ask yourself what your boundaries are so that you don't find yourself in a similar situation again.

Understand that I have no intention of exacting revenge or seeking justice on my own. I have a great, stable life now in an executive career position and I am in a great relationship. I have no desire to compromise any of that. I think everyone is misunderstanding. There is no malicious intent with any of my comments. Let me touch on a few things that I have read.

First, when I say justice, I don't mean that we should form a lynch mob and burn these people at the stake. You have to separate the mental health disorder from the crime. We prosecute people for crimes, not mental health disorders. I just don't understand the consistent justification by many on this board. It's frankly disappointing to read. There is NO justification for any kind of abuse. EVER! Why is this even a discussion? If a person, regardless of their mental health condition commits a crime, then they should face repercussions. Those are the rules of a civil society. Abuse of any kind is a crime and the individual should face repercussions. Set aside the mental health condition. We should not excuse people because they "didn't know what they were doing." That's not an excuse that works anywhere else in the justice system. If they are mentally unfit to stand trial, then we have procedures for that. Understand that when I say justice and consequences, I am suggestion a course of action that exists everywhere else in the justice system for many other crimes committed by people with mental health disorders. They should be compelled to participate in some sort of treatment program if the courts take their mental health into consideration. Now that treatment should be commiserate to the level of the mental health disorder, and the severity of the crime. Obviously there would be a different course of action for someone who mentally abused their spouse versus someone who stabbed their spouse in the leg with a kitchen knife during a rage episode.

Second, I don't think it is subjective. I would be willing to bet a lot of money right now that I would easily win a court case tomorrow if there were charges brought against her. I have electronic records, witness statements, therapy records, and other evidence. Also a mental health professional would necessarily conduct a full evaluation of both of us as part of the trial to determine the level of abuse suffered. These professionals aren't stupid. They know how to see through the facade and see who suffered the abuse. I had my T tell me almost immediately that I wasn't the one with BPD or bi-polar as my BPDex tried to project onto me. She never really explained how, but she said there are "tells" they look for. But again, I'm disappointed by the almost archaic attitude that it would be too hard, so we should just dismiss the idea altogether. That is a form of victim shaming and I find that reprehensible in a modern society. We can convict child molesters with no physical evidence, surely we can find empirical evidence of emotional/mental abuse.

I believe in a solution based approach to problem solving. I understand the value of this board as a forum for broken people to receive help, encouragement, and resources, but I think that we need to not only talk about the problem, but also potential solutions. We need to work to make this board almost obsolete. That should be the goal. We need to fight to reduce the number of wounded, nearly dead people limping their way to this board. We need to band together to fight for proactive action against these abuses in addition to the reactive support that is provided. I was encouraged to read that the justice system in the UK has started looking at mental/emotional abuse as a standalone crime. They may not be trying people at the moment, but it's a positive first step.

The bottom line is that there shouldn't be a single person on this board, that has endured the hell we all talk about, that should be okay with the idea of the perpetrator walking away scot free to do the same thing to another partner, spouse, child, family member, ect... .If not anything else, we owe it to the innocent, to make them aware of the threat before they are scarred for life by one of these malicious, unrepentant individuals. I know many may disagree with me here, and that's okay. We don't have to agree in order to support each other and remain a family of survivors. We all have our own journey.

If we were to prosecute every instance of emotional abuse then there would be more people being punished than not.  Can you say with 100% certainty that you haven't emotionally abused someone?  I know I can't.

Mutt,

Why did any of us stay? Again, I'm confused. This is a question that people often ask women who are in abusive relationships, but the person questioning typically isn't a person that has personally ever suffered physical abuse. I guess I just assumed that everyone on this board stayed for the same reasons: The gas lighting, the FOG, the shaming, the mental breakdown suffered because of the push pull behaviors, the fact that many of us have co-dependency issues, and innumerable other reasons.

I have definitely learned a lot from this experience. I have made a lot of changes to my life because of my experiences. But should I thank her for the abuse? Should a sexual assault victim thank her abuser because it taught her a valuable lesson about not running alone at night? Again, I have to summarily reject this line of thinking. This is victim blaming. My reasons for staying aren't relevant to the abuse I suffered. My staying does not make me complicit in the abuse any more than a battered woman is complicit for staying with her abusive spouse. There is zero justification for abuse.

Now, there may be reasons. Sure. I was vulnerable, I had no idea what the hell BPD was, I blamed myself, and I really thought that I needed to stay in order to help her. Those are reasons, not excuses for her behavior. I have learned a lot from my experiences and will not allow those reasons to ever put me in that type of situation again. I am thankful for that knowledge. But would I trade that knowledge for not having ever suffered the abuse? Absolutely! I'm not going to sit here and be grateful to her for teaching me about the horrible, sh!tty, predators that are out in the world destroying people and their lives. I could have gone the rest of my life on this earth not having this knowledge and have died a happy man.

I am a survivor. I never asked for this. I didn't deserve any of it. Nothing I did excuses anything that was done to me. I am not happy about what happened to me and I am not complicit in any of the abuse I received. That should be a mantra all of us repeat on a daily basis. We should not be excusing or justifying anything that these people did to any of us. To do so is reprehensible and inexcusable.

I am sorry that happened to you and I agree it's not fair. We need to deal with how things are and not with how we want them to be. What would your proposal be budget wise? It would be an astronomical cost on the courts. It's good to vent but I just don't want to see you stuck. Everybody has pain, it's how we deal with it, we can choose to stop suffering, if we move forward.

I would say it is very much relevant SG.  What about taking some personal responsibility for our lives?  

Again, I understand your point, but this is defeatist thinking in my mind. I think as a society we understand the difference between accidentally bumping into someone on the sidewalk and punching someone square in the jaw. They are both violations of someone's personal space, but they beg the question of intentionality and severity. This is why we have a court system and prosecutors. As an American, I should have the right to press charges against anyone and have the court system evaluate that fairly. It shouldn't simply be dismissed because it's too hard. If there's a case, as determined by the prosecutor (or the UK equivalent) then it should go to trial. Let the evidence stand for itself.

This is certainly the case for people who fuc@ing kill themselves because of these people! For God's sake people! I don't understand the defeatist attitude on this. In America we have begun prosecuting people for bullying. This should be no different. A family who has a loved one kill themselves because of the abuse they suffered at the had of one of these people should be able to seek justice. I truly hope that everyone that is opposing this idea is simply playing the devil's advocate and not really seriously suggesting that these people shouldn't be held accountable. There is never an excuse for abuse. It's that simple.

All I can say is that I'm really disappointed by what I'm hearing from the advisors on this board. I think that victim blaming is reprehensible, and while I understand the need for an open dialogue, I never expected to hear such language from board advisors. As much as I have appreciated the help I have received on this board, I'm not sure that I want to be part of a group that subjects survivors to victim blaming. That isn't helpful to anyone on this board and is actually pretty deplorable and irresponsible in my mind.

Who is excusing it?  I certainly am not.  I do want accountability (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=288926.0;all) from my ex ... .and I also know I will never get it.  At the end of the day, I am responsible for my life and my decisions.  I chose to get into a relationship with my ex and stay even after the red flags were flown.  That choice is mine and mine alone to own.  That in NO WAY excuses her for the things she did that essentially destroyed me.  

SG, I understand you feel disappointed and maybe even slightly abandoned by the comment "personal responsibility". While I understand your pain and suffering, and believe me, I've been there as have a lot of people on this boards, I too consider that the disorder is not 100% at fault here. I take responsibility for staying as long as I did, take responsibility for not sticking to my guns and allowing recycling, take responsibility for not sticking to "I'm leaving the next time she picks a fight with me", and all the other times I stayed when I should have gone (and they are many). The fact that clinical or sub BPD is an umbrella of disorders, that means I am now able to spot red flags from afar and not find myself in situations I was unequipped to deal with before. Yes, we were wronged, and it was all unfair, etc etc etc, our exes take some of the blame. However, we take the rest of the blame for our wrong turns.

I'm sorry you feel maybe even betrayed by the board. I understand why, yet I also think that our exes are not 100% to blame. Some people say 50-50, others like to think it's 60-40. Whatever the percentage, personal responsibility is necessary.

Hi all,

It's a worthwhile topic but perhaps we need to step back for a moment and take a few breaths.

I completely get the desire for justice and the anger that many of us feel towards our exes. I don't think anyone is trying to invalidate those feelings. They deserve to be heard and treated with respect

If any of our exes have broken the law they should be held accountable.

Swampgas the US and the UK have a legal system to address and punish the crimes of those that break the law. It's not perfect and it is constantly being refined and improved but it's there.

You said that you could have taken your ex to court but you made a decision not to pursue legal action against her. I don't know your reasons but is it fair to blame our legal system for your choice?

Do you think  that we also need new laws that target behaviour that is currently not covered by our legal system? This is possible but I'd suggest it's very complex.

As C Stein has pointed out what one person defines as emotional abuse is very subjective and predicated on our particular personality types and sensitivities. It would require incredibly well thought through legalisation not to mention highly skilled administration to implement it well and there is a real danger that it could be misinterpreted and abused.  There are many members who have been charged for violence and abuse when the opposite was the case.

I still feel very angry at times about some of my exes behaviour. I would never excuse it but I also think blame and I have done plenty of blaming myself - is not just an exercise in futility - it's a trap.

The more I blame my ex the more of a victim I become. It might give me some short term relief but ultimately it's suffocating. It disempowers me and it robs me of potential happiness and life.

There are millions of people all over the world who never get justice. We're lucky enough to live in a part of the world were are rights and liberties are protected in ways that many of us take for granted. Even then if you read the victim reports where perpetuators were punished justice often ends up being a very hollow experience. You can't undo the past. You can make peace with it, learn and move forward. Not easy but possible.

Reforming

This is an interesting thread.  There will never be a day where I won't wish to hear my BPDexgf come forward with some sort of acknowledgement about her actions - some sort of "ownership" for them.  But I know that will never happen.  Even if she gets therapy and comes to a point in her life where she can prevent herself from behaving that way in her future, she'll never look back on what she did to me to apologize with actual meaning in it.

And yet, I am 100% aware that if not for my own childhood wounds - my own issues I've never even addressed until the trauma my ex inflicted upon me - she could not ever have done the damage she did.  Did my ex cause the damage I suffered?  Yes, she absolutely did.  Am I at fault for that damage? No, I am not.  But I am at fault for allowing it to continue.  I'm not a child anymore.  I'm a grown adult and I had been unhappy and felt like I'd been abused by her for years - yet I kept trying to make it work.

Why?  Because I was just as unhealthy as she was - it just manifested differently for me.  My dysfunction came from my compulsive need - actual need - to "matter" to her and to feel like she valued me as a person.  I literally needed that from her because it gave me a feeling I didn't even realize I wanted - which was to feel like I didn't have the wounds I had for the reasons I had them.

Would the damage have been as severe if I'd left her long before I did?  No, it wouldn't have.  And that's the ownership I take in the relationship.  I was a good little victim who kept buying her BS and kept blaming myself for why she couldn't treat me like a human being with value and worth.  That's not on her - it's on me.  I blame her for what she did, I hold her accountable for how she treated me - but I also blame myself and hold myself accountable for allowing it for so long.

There's literally nothing wrong with being hurt, angry, upset, and all that you feel about what your ex did to you.  But there's no point in wallowing in those feelings when the only reason you have them is less about who they are and what they did and are more about who you are and why you allowed it.

They don't need to be "held accountable", not really.  What they need is some dedicated and serious help.  When we can't let a toxic person for us out of our lives, our thoughts, and our actions we're in need of just as much help as they are.  That's not "victim blaming", that's reality. 

It is neither wrong nor right to desire justice when feeling victimized. Customarily, that desire is shaped by one's philosophy, theology, ethics, values, reason and emotion.

However, in an ordered secular society, we delegate the administration of justice to the government whom are empowered to enforce our criminal statutes.

Under the vast majority of modern criminal codes there are panoply of domestic violence laws which address interpersonal relational behaviors, and communications--that criminalize offensive touching's, threats to imminently offensively touch, illegal restraints upon movement, use of electronic communication devices to harass, stalking etc.

Consequently, as imperfect as the criminal justice system may be--clearly there are well-established protections in place for those whom suffer from domestic abuse (assuming an individual avails themselves of said protections).

Though, it appears that what is being focused upon here are relational injustices that fall short of criminal violations and can be described colloquially as crimes of the heart.

Yet, those relational offenses are not exclusively committed by the disordered. They permeate a plethora of strata in contemporary society. For really, what is being described is the trauma caused by betrayal. Yet, betrayal is among the oldest of elements recorded in the human experience--and is there really anything new under the sun when it comes to how terrible lovers (or former lovers) may be to each other. In the flick the "Princess Bride" there's a quote--"You mean, you'll put down your rock and I'll put down my sword, and we'll try and kill each other like civilized people." Though, I am afraid that there is nothing civilized when it comes to the vagaries of romantic love--and the sooner one internalizes that love rarely is fair--then the sooner he or she will desist from disproportionally expecting a romantic love interest to provide the recipe that fulfills one's identity. A relationship with a pwBPD may simply bring that notion to the forefront in the most fractured of lights.
 
However, when romantic relations are categorized as abusive--it is incumbent to authentically recognize that abusive relationships rarely arise in an equitable vacuum and are consistently the product of relationships in which there resides an imbalance of power. That imbalance of power can manifest itself via many shapes--physical strength, financial dependence, emotional domination/control, psychological domination/control etc.

Consequently, desiring justice in the sphere of one's personal romantic relationship inevitably remains a subjective desire. Though, we may couch that desire in various forms--altruism, to protect others, or vengeance as in retribution--yet, the most common form that we witness here, is the desire that the person who singularly hurt us--feels our pain on an equal level. Because, it often seems unfathomable that someone we were so close to--whom we loved so dearly--could turn on us and hurt us in such awful ways. 

Yet, if our claims of victimization are premised upon being defenseless, implying that our relational free-will was subsumed by another to the degree that we lost the volitional ability to protect ourselves from harm--that begs the question; how did our partner usurp power, why did we accede power to them, and what was it in exchange for? For it is impossible (or near impossible) to be abused in a romantic relationship without a disparity of power. Just my 2 cents on a touchy subject.

While I agree with your post overall, I have a different point of view than the one expressed in this statement. If there was no point in wallowing in those feelings, then that would suggest avoiding seeing what the problem is/was. The point of letting those feelings come over you is to eventually reach a point where you are able to see where they stem from. If BPDs taught us anything is that feelings are just as important. What I am trying to say here is, you can't reach point B ("who you are and why you allowed it" if you haven't gone through point A ("who they are and what they did". "Wallowing in those feelings" when in point A will eventually lead to point B. I don't see this as pointless, but as a necessary step no matter how long it takes.

And to get back on topic with my post:
Reading stories on these boards, I see that my subclinical BPD ex wasn't as severe, as abusive or as controlling as many of the BPDs described here. She was much more indirect, insidious, "subtle" in her approach, yet the rages were just as aggressive (there was even one time she reacted physically). Her "games" (can we call them games if they are unaware of what their rules are?) were the same, her vocabulary was the same, her needs, impulsive behavior, end results were the same to many of the BPD stories described here. The effect on me, however, was the same. The emotional abuse that I went through felt severe. The constant ambiguity of most situations kept me in total confusion, uncertainty, emotional pain. Then she went away emotionally and I broke up with her. Was it easy? No, it felt like somebody twisted a knife through my stomach. So I went back for more, hoping things would work out. The second time I broke up with her was just as painful (note: there were a lot of breakup-makeup cycles, and before the 2nd "main" breakup they were almost bi-daily). Hell, it was even painful with the 3rd one when we were supposedly just "friends with benefits", and I was experimenting to see if all the things I learned about the disorder were in check (they are). Until something happened again, and all the unresolved issues from before resurfaced, and I had to break up with her again.

Are you reading the above and thinking she's at fault 100% here? I doubt it.

I wholeheartedly agree.  Clearly I was not as precise as I thought I had been when using the word "wallowing" - for I never once meant to imply the process, nor its components, as unnecessary or pointless. 

What I see as pointless is simply staying in "point A" for no good reason.  As in... .if Point A isn't a place of origin from which we are moving away while moving toward Point B - then that is wallowing. 

Being angry and wanting accountability is part of Point A - but some never leave there and never are willing, or able, to turn that intensity inward to ask themselves the questions leading us to our harder truths.  That's what I see as pointless.  That energy, focus, and time is better spent on ourselves and coming to understand why we allowed all of it for so long. 

But, then, I think I've done my healing a bit backwards than many others here - I went straight from comprehending the disorder to asking myself why I allowed the mistreatment for so long.  Only now do I think I'm really entering into the anger stage - and, yeah, I've come to see I'm fairly angry (I've actually been playing a mobile phone game where the point is to create and evolve a virus to wipe out all humanity - so I named my virus after her and placed patient zero in her country of origin - which I recognize is my subconscious anger trying to be felt).

Anger is not an emotion I am comfortable feeling.  So I'm a little shocked to find that I'm in this place.  Even so, I'd much rather see my BPDexgf get help than to see her held accountable.  I suppose if I watched her prey on others and cause them the same harm I allowed, I might feel a sense of injustice about it all - but that would be different for me than wanting justice for what I allowed her to do to me.

*shrugs*

It may take some people longer than others to deal with some feelings.  :)

Hi all and thanks sharing your insights
 

Very insightful post Conundrum. It seems to me that many of our relationships begin with some kind of inequality. We rescue  partners who appeared vulnerable and in need of our strength and wisdom. I think this dynamic is rarely healthy and ironically by the end of these relationships we are the ones who need to be rescued. Inequality ultimately breeds resentment.

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Hollow I think this is very true. In order to move forward we all need the time and space to grieve and work through our anger. The time required is different for each of us and we shouldn't judge each other. The important thing is not to get stuck in phase 1.


Eprogeny this was very true for me too. Like many others here I knew that my relationship was unhealthy and destructive but I chose to stay and accept her behaviour. This can be a very painful realisation, especially when you're still struggling to deal with the feelings of betrayal and hurt that come when the relationship ends. But recognising that we made choices too and understanding why does not mean we are excusing our partners destructive behaviour or blaming ourselves. We do it to learn from our experience and make sure that it doesn't happen again.

Swamp I've read some of your posts and it sounds like you've been through hell and back. We can share out stories and try and support each other but nobody has been in your shoes and we're not is judging you. It sounds like you've come a long way in a short time. I slipped in and out of anger for a long time and I can still be triggered in the wrong circumstances. I felt violated and diminished by what my ex did but the hardest anger to process was the anger and blame I directed towards myself. It's taken me a lot of time to recognise that a certain point blaming my ex and myself just kept me stuck. Both are destructive. That's doesn't mean that I've forgiven her for what she did - that may nor may not happen - but I am learning to forgive myself which is much more important.

Thanks for the great thread

Reforming

Hey Swampgas,

I have only skimmed most of the posts here, but I did read your initial post in its entirety, and some of your replies. I understand that you feel angry and outraged on a more macro level. You're feeling moral outrage, it sounds like. I don't feel moral outrage wrt BPD, and I disagree with many of your premises, but I definitely know the feeling. The question is, do you let it make (or keep) you angry and bitter? I think everyone here has been told at one time or another, "Life ain't fair." Trite, but true. So my question to you is: can you keep that moral outrage from poisoning your life--this one--the only one you have?

This is a really interesting thread. For my part, I am less concerned with questions of justice and accountability and more concerned with questions of awareness. I think that I would have benefitted from more awareness about the potential damaging effects of the relationship on myself. I was lucky-- my ex told me she had BPD, so I had some clue that it was at play in our interactions. I researched a lot about BPD but learned much more about what it meant for her, than what it would mean for me (besides instability). This site was so important for learning about what it meant for me and then also working towards recovery.

I'm wondering if there are other ways to raise awareness about the impact of BPD on friends and family. Here's what wikipedia has to say-- to me this is a little short and cryptic. What else might we want to add?

Family members:
People with BPD are prone to feeling angry at members of their family and alienated from them. On their part, family members often feel angry and helpless at how their BPD family members relate to them.

Parents of adults with BPD are often both over-involved and under-involved in family interactions. In romantic relationships, BPD is linked to increased levels of chronic stress and conflict, decreased satisfaction of romantic partners, abuse, and unwanted pregnancy. However, these links may apply to personality disorders in general.[29]

You r looking for justice to be done with an insane person?

BPD is a serious mental illness, those people don't want/choose to be like that and nobody is 100% why they became like that but they can't change it, T can't really cure them and spouses surly just make them worse.

what you are experiencing is really nothing close to what they are going through without any hope to become better one day.

You know that people might get away even with murder if it's proven that they are mad right?   

We (and you as well) played our roll in this mess, we are the ones that tolerated all the mess they brought to the r/s,, we played our part, ignoring all the red flags all the way until it was too late.

Don't ever forget it

Sorry but you sound like a child that seek revenge instead of taking responsibility for his actions and FOG. Nobody forced us to stay, most people would run away once the first  red-flag showed but we didn't, we let it drag coz being with them served something deep within us and maybe instead of being angry at the fish for not being able to climb a tree channel your energy to understand yourself and how you can heal and avoid those kind of r/s  in the future.

leave her be, she lives in hell, what can be worse then that?

What is it that you would see or feel as justice?