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last night we had a discussion about divorcing and who would get what etc. she wants to be taken care of. So me offering to split the profit on the house 50/50 was not good enough. She wants to be taken care of past that. Anyway we ended the conversation for the night no fighting took place. I was laying in my bed and got a text from her

Her: I know that  irreconcilable differences is what's going to be on the papers, but what is the real reason? Because you know we can make it work if we wanted to. Please be honest with me because I deserve to know. I know a lot of it but I just want you to summit up for me


ME: I would like to answer you tomorrow and not in a text. There is not a quick summary. You are right we could make it work. I hope you have a good night sleep.

HER: I know that you know I've been trying and working on myself. I can't discuss anything with you without you going off. I KNOW you want free from (her sons name) and my depression. I don't want you to tell me your version, I'm not stupid. I know these things by your own words. Yes, I'm getting a lawyer.

about an hour later 11:43pm
HER: you are deserting (her sons name) and me

Today I just get a text
HER: I feel like we are garbage that people don't want around. Like we are disposable. We've be thrown away before. I can't believe you are doing it too


I am having an internal struggle. I want to tell her she is loved. because I do BUT she also knows how I am and that I may come to her and comfort her.  Have you ever felt like crap about yourself and someone comes by and gives you a word of encouragement. I know she is feeling self loathing right now.

 
Good job not going further via text.  I know this stuff sucks.

Does she own the house?  What has your lawyer said about a reasonable expectation of a split.

More later... .

Hang in there Byfaith.     

FF

the only thing I did text her back after long consideration was

Me: can we talk tonight?

I just wanted an out if she accused me of ignoring her

she texted back:
Her: Pls give me your SS# I'm talking to cobra

(I am assuming in regards to health insurance) anyway I didn't send her that info.

No I own the house. I have only consulted with the attorney so far. I will meet with him next week. He is on vacation this week.
 

So... .why offer her half of something she doesn't own?

Is there a mortgage?

Are you still living there?
FF

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postnuptial_agreement

Byfaith,

You can check the list of states on here and see if your state allows postnuptials.

You are obviously in deep thought and decision making over the future of your relationship.  You also realize that it can't go on "as is".

Perhaps you can define the conditions under which you can continue and have those in a post-nup. 

Perhaps that would give her some extra motivation.

Just an idea.

FF

Hello.  Been there, have the T shirt.  This is the normal mode of operation for a cluster B person whose behavior causes multiple breakups in life.  Her agenda is to keep you on her string, playing her game.  How do I know?  Because she keeps switching tactics.  It makes anyone feel crazy.
  Until you can set personal boundaries and stop rescuing her, she will be toxic for you... .like a really bad drug habit you can't kick.
   Ironically, I married my ex largely because he had had it so rouvh and I just couldn't break his heart by ending the relationship.  Turns out, he doesn't have that kind of heart.  His heart is consumed with his own comfort and need... .there was never room for my needs to be met.
   This won't be easy, whatever you decide.  Be there for your child, and I will consider you a true hero.  Best of luck!

True sad but wiser

FF
My guts arent that torn up now. She is either lying about seeing an attorney or they lied to her OR i was lied to. She claims her lawyer told her that this house is half hers. This house was mine when we got married. from what i was told and what i have read she is full of crap.

NOW she tell me tonight she is filing for legal separation and she wants me out of the house.

More later.

Depending on where you live, yes, the house is yours.  Don't move out.  Counterfile (respond) with a request for dissolution of marriage.  A legal seperation leaves you on the hook.  Best of all would be an annulment due to fraud. (Hard to prove, but basically says she was only getting married to enrich herself, rather than create a partnership.)  There are actual legal duties within marriage.  It is a contract that can be violated.  I found that very interesting to learn.  Good luck!

By Faith,

I am not a lawyer and don't know anything about the legality of this, but to follow up on sad but wiser fraud idea is the fact that your marriage has been celibate for a while. I have heard of alienation of affection in cases of infidelity, but I also think a sexless marriage might have some consideration in a legal sense...

That said, your wife is probably panicked about what might happen to her if her marriage dissolves and may scramble to do something to save it- including being seductive. Your challenge I think will be to decide if attempts are sincere, or to alleviate her fears of being on her own.

I have also heard that leaving a property or family physically might be construed as abandonment of the property.

I hope you have discussed all these considerations with a lawyer. I know marital property varies by state. I would think that there would be some kind of agreement to make regarding her support in some way, but best to know what your legal obligations are. If the fact that you have not had sex in a long time supports a position for you, then consider this if it becomes and option.

Confirm for sure that her name is on the deed.  Talk to a lawyer before you leave.  Make sure you have retained that lawyer.

There is what the law says... .and there are the "facts on the ground".  If she is living there and you are not... .that is a very powerful "fact on the ground".

Much better for you to pay a deposit and first month and send her somewhere else.  So you can market house... .so you can fix up house to market.  So you can have some sanity.

DO NOT WORRY ABOUT WHAT SHE SAYS her lawyer says!

FF

I like the idea of annulment. 

I would thoroughly look at that with a lawyer.  I would also look at the post nup thing.

Talk to your lawyer about the idea of changing the facts on the ground and paying for her to live somewhere else for a period of time.

Think about it this way.  If you move out, and then try to come back over to paint.  How will that go?  If you schedule a showing with a realtor... .how will that go? 

This is about boundaries.  You are responsible for your property. 

FF

If you google "sexless marriage" several lawyer's websites come up discussing the legal aspect of this with advice to contact their office for more information.

Terms such as "alienation of affection" or "constructive abandonment".

This could be something in your favor legally.

Hi 

I am sorry for the situation you are in.
There is something I don't understand. Why would you offer her 50/50 of the profit of your own house ?
And why do you say 'profit', do you want to sell it ?

Yes I do want to sell the house whether we stay married (long shot) or get divorced. I have been there 18 years and I am tired of it. I want to start fresh.

as far as her saying she wanted me out of the house she sincerely apologized for saying that.

she texted me:
I don't know whether I could make you leave or not but I wouldn't even if I could. I'm sorry I said that,  it's just that I didn't know what I said wrong on the phone and you said something about me asking questions that's all. It feels weird for my husband to get upset at me asking him questions.but I do have to admit, I am very hurt and resentful that you're going through with this (referring to divorce)

I didn't turn into a bowl of jello over this but I did accept her apology and it calmed the waters. I will discuss the relationship issue over on the other board. She did ask me in a very meek and non accusing way if I had a female friend or if I was interested in anyone, which I am not. 

Fie,
to answer your question. I offered her 50/50 because she has put some money towards improvements on the house. upwards of about $10,000. Also That would be in lieu of possibly paying alimony. I would not just divorce her and leave her with nothing. I have an advantage in the department of retaining employment, she has a disabled son to care for. I feel for her. In my heart that's what I would want to do.

Thanks for all the feedback everyone.

I will be back and forth on the deciding board and this board 

Does she get disability for her son?  As in SSDI or other payments.

FF

I agree with formflier.  Don't pay attention to what she says her lawyer said.  And don't leave your house.

Protect yourself and your assets.
Stay in the house.
Don't make promises to gift anything away.  Even if you are okay splitting the proceeds of a house sale,you might need something to negotiate with later on.

Talk to a lawyer. |iiii

I'm going to go a step further and say stop discussing division of assets until you have a plan that you and your lawyer have created.

FF

I'm going to agree with FF-

A while back, your wife made a point of how upsetting it was for you to say the ":)" word to her. A discussion about splitting resources is probably triggering, and emotional discussions tend to not go well.

A lawyer is not emotionally involved. He/she knows how this is done according to the law. He/she is also able to discuss these things- lawyer to lawyer without the complications of emotions/BPD etc.

You are emotionally involved, and also want to consider the circumstances that agree with your conscience. This may mean she gets a larger settlement that the law allows, but that will be up to you to decide when all is said and done-if you choose to go through with this. If you do go through with this, you may also feel differently by the time this is all worked out- you assess the legal expenses and the settlement she arrives with.

Divorce is by nature, emotional and difficult. If people could have a rational discussion and mutually agree on dividing assets, custody,  then there would be no need for lawyers to be involved. But most of the time, people are too emotional and heated to do this. Add mental illness to this and it is a volatile situation. IMHO, the lawyers would be more rational and effective with such discussions.

Hello,
I agree with the other members on not making decisions too quickly.
Is it necessary that you sell your house now ? Can you postpone it until after the divorce, so there is less stress on your shoulders ?
Maybe it's not necessary to handle everything at once ?
It's even possible that, once things settle down a bit for you emotionally, you don't want to sell your house anymore. And if you still do, well, you'll have plenty of time.

If you really want to provide for your wife, why would it be necessary to give a large sum of money (50% of your house value) all at once ? At first side it seems more reasonable to me to make monthly payments ... What do you think ?
I don't know how your wife handles money but BPD tend to make not so wise decisions sometimes... .a lot of them cannot handle big sums as I know from experience with my BPDex. Even if you think your wife won't spend everything at once, why is it necessary she'll get everything in one big amount ?

I tend to agree with the small amounts vs one lump sum but at some point there is a line between what we can control and what we can not.

When my father was seriously ill, I wanted to get some access to manage the money rather than have my BPD mother do that. My reason was so that she would have what she needed over time as I was concerned she would mismanage it. But it was actually an attempt to control her autonomy over it, and she doesn't accept any of that.

She legally owned her assets to do what she chose to do with. Even if I thought she was not managing it, I had no say in that.

If ByFaith goes through with this, any amount of money that his wife receives is not under his control. If his motivation about how to give it is to control what she does with it, this is still an attempt to control her at some level.

I don't know what the lawyer would decide- I imagine some kind of monthly alimony. Few people are able to settle something in one lump sum as far as I have known. Alimony seems to also be based on income and I have heard of amounts changing if income changes.

Selling the house may affect how payments are calculated. Also, I don't know about marital property laws- they vary from state to state. She may have a stake in the house.

All of these things are legal issues that are best handled by an objective professional (lawyer) IMHO. Emotions are high in divorce.

Very few divorces include alimony these days. Only in relatively long marriages (which I think yours isn't) in which one spouse has gone without earnings or sacrificed earnings in order to help (be a homemaker, etc.) the other partner. Also those who have worked to help advance their partner, which she hasn't. Your marriage has been a few years, so you might wind up owing her the $10,000 she paid for home improvements plus a couple thousand, maximum.

If I remember, you were her employer and then you two became involved. You will need a lawyer to keep from having this bite you in the back. She might allege that you coerced her into a relationship in the context of an employee/boss situation. You could lose more money that way.

In divorce, you have to be cool, neither kind-hearted/sentimental nor resentful/vengeful. While she has been unwilling to be intimate with you for a long while, it would be hard to prove this, so it may not have an effect on the proceedings.

It's easier to prove that something happened than it is to prove that something didn't happen!

Couple thoughts.

Byfaith,

You are a very caring guy... .you think of others way before yourself.  This is an admirable trait. Good trait in marriage as well. . 

As you have seen people with PDs can take advantage of your traits.

Your traits are likely not good for a divorce and getting the best deal for YOU.  That is your job right now.  To get a deal on paper that is as good for you as the law will allow 

Please eliminate trying to be "fair" to her. 

If your divorce is done and you believe you will feel better by sending her extra money, you can do that.  (note:  I would make sure a T is guiding you in this... .if you ever wanted to do this)

If your divorce is done and you want to send her less money that the divorce says... .how is that going to work out for you?

Basic message.  I need byfaith the boundaried businessman to show up.  You don't have a child with her (a bio one) and you need to let her solve her own problems.

Thoughts?

FF

SweetCharlotte made a good point, have a lawyer in the wings who really understands the laws, processes and typical local outcomes as they relate to your specific situation.  Even if you're aiming for a successful mediation, you still need an experienced family law attorney (probably one able to also handle your past employer/employee history).  It's difficult and expensive to change lawyers mid-stream.  Best to get a lawyer experienced with litigation in court.  Hope for the best and prepared for the worst.

Keep in mind a very important point, a position a confrontational or entitled spouse would try to stamp out... .you have a right to confidentiality and privacy on certain matters.  If you were trying to keep the marriage together (in a healthy way) then yes you would share your principles, boundaries and information since that is required for two-way Trust.  However, if the marriage is failing or imploding, then you need to think ahead with that perspective in mind.  Principles?  Boundaries?  Yes, those are who you are and your minimums for yourself and parenting.  Information?  That's where the biggest difference is.  Yes, you would share parenting information.  No, you would be very cautious about what would be shared concerning divorce, settlement, custody, parenting schedule matters.  Why?  If you shared the wrong information, even what seemed innocent, then that could be used against you.

Here's a situation you personally may not do but could so easily happen in a moment of stress, exactly what so many disordered spouses and ex-spouses do.  Imagine the person get so frustrated and the person exclaims, "Sometimes you make me so mad I could hit you.  I'm taking a walk to calm down."  Then the spouse calls the police and claims, "My spouse was raging and said he was going to hit me.  He's not here now but I'm so afraid of him."  Guess what, the person comes home, the police are waiting and he's carted off, is arrested, spends a weekend in the local jail, gets out with a temporary restraining or protection order pending against him and he has an even more uphill struggle to get a less unfair long term custody arrangement.

So my point is that if you share too much information with her, you risk her using it against you.  Tell her on a Friday, "On Monday I'm filing", some here would warn you that your risks of being framed for misdeeds would be heightened that weekend.  A phrase I heard here was, an acting-out disordered spouse is likely to try to make you look worse than her.  Making allegations, whether unsubstantiated or not, is a quick way to make you look worse, to hobble you and your parenting.

As formflier noted, if you two don't share a biological children, then this should be an almost businesslike process.  She would have little or no kid leverage for an advantage unless you had adopted her children.  While we know you won't be mean, you do need to exercise great care that you don't let your well-meaning emotions sabotage you.  As ff said, if you obligate yourself to shoulder a burdensome settlement, it may be a hardship later to gift anything extra.  What if you lost your job or retired or got injured and your current income plummeted?  What may be okay to pay now would become a burden, perhaps an impossible obligation.  It is better to have a basic, minimal impact divorce, then you could later decide on gifting her or her children as appropriate.  Another thought, if you wanted to keep in contact with her children, limiting how much you decide to agree to now would leave you with money (and incentive for her to allow continued contact with the children) to gift later.  Does that make sense?

Byfaith,

Can you catch everyone up here on how long married?

How did she support herself and her son before she married you?

What did she bring to the marriage (money and assets)?

What did she contribute to improving marital assets?  Looks like $10k into house improvements.  What else?

How many years of the marriage did she act like a normal married wife (sex love and affection)?  How many did she not?

How much income did she bring in over the marriage?

How much did you bring in?


I think I know what most of the answers will be... .but important to be clear.  Important that your lawyer get a clear picture as well.

It would be one thing if she "performed" her duties well and you wanted to go somewhere else.  But... .after years of choosing not to hold up her end of bargain.  I'm having hard time seeing how she gets much... .if any... .alimony.

Even better if you can get an annulment.

Hang in there bro... .this is tough stuff.  Your future depends on a strong, clear minded Byfaith working through this stuff.
FF

Hey everyone,

I have read everything that has been posted. Trying to digest it. I just got back today. Took a day off yesterday and went to the mountains.

My problem right now is trying to make the ultimate decision on whether to go ahead and file for the divorce. I will post separate why I am struggling.

Thanks for all the patience here. I will say this though, if I do go through with it I will not be generous as I was stating earlier. I will let a lawyer guide me through this and let a judge decide the outcome. ( and if I WANT to do something extra I can)

You are right people with PDs take advantage and they try to make it look like they do not

Hey FF

I will answer all of the questions you posed

Break it into smaller steps.

You are not at the point of deciding to file.

Hire lawyer... .put on retainer.  Get paperwork ready.  Talk with lawyer a couple times.  Make sure all questions answered.

Then... .and only then... .take some time away and decide if you want to file.

You are not filing to "scare her"... .but filing for a divorce is not getting one.  There are still lots of steps.

Break things down into smaller steps.  One step at a time.

FF

Typically the first step onto a new path is the hardest.  Once you've started, each subsequent step gets a little easier.  Or less hard.  Do you understand this?  The rest of your life will become much calmer and progressively better as time goes on.  Well, if you take the path to get off the endless roller coaster and limit the crazy.

I'm always a big fan of "backing up" and "looking at the forest".  Making sure there isn't a big thing that is being missed... .and then get back on your path and take a few more steps.

Also it is sometimes helpful to look back at the paths you have taken... .especially if you don't want to repeat a path.  

With that in mind:  

Byfaith,

How did previous r/s end?  How did you feel?  How did you participate... .or avoid... .the decision making process.  

Who were you "looking out for" when past r/s came to an end?

What did you like about the way past r/s ended?

What did you dislike?

What did you learn?

How did your values and perhaps principals change?


My prayer for you is that you grow into a stronger Byfaith.  Regardless of the survival or demise of your current relationship.

I believe to my core that God uses our relationships to mature us.  To make us more Christ like.

How does that apply to previous r/s?

What do you believe you will learn from your current r/s experience?

Note:  For others passing by, I realize bpdfamily does not favor one religion (or lack thereof) over another.  I understand Byfaith to be a man of faith and these questions are likely particularly relevant to him.

 


FF

By Faith,

Your ambivalence is understandable. I observed this with my father who at times felt he had had enough, yet, struggled with the idea that my mother was unable to cope without him and could not fend for herself.

However, unlike your marriage, he married her as a young bride and they have children together. He did consider this. However, long past the time when we needed him to support us, he remained with her.

It was not easy for him. Had he decided to divorce, we would not have blamed him for wanting to leave. We would have been happy to see him take steps to self care, either in or out of the marriage.

We perceived her as the problem. But the reason he couldn't leave, no matter how tough things were was more about him than her. Something about him fit her- hand in glove. One reason he didn't leave was because I don't think he could be without her. He needed to take care of her in the way that he did, even if it was hard on him.

Your wife is a challenge, but I think the struggle is with you, and I hope you resolve that one way or the other. While Jesus is a role model, there are different facets to Jesus. One is the man who meekly sacrificed all that he was for others, the other is the man of strength  who stood up to injustice. I think it is up to everyone to choose how he/she wants to demonstrate his/her ethics.

There was no right or wrong to my father's decision. We would have loved and supported him either way. Whatever choice he would have made would have been difficult, such is the nature of these kinds of choices. He was a man of principle- but whether he stood for her, or stood for himself- each was an act of strength. You may feel you are standing at a fork in the road but you will take your principles with them on the path you choose.

Correct!  And to be clear... .my message on this is as follows:  Jesus doesn't force anyone to follow him.  He communicates clearly and people have a choice.  He respects that choice.

So... .once you have clearly laid out your love for your wife, a pathway to a marriage that you two can thrive it... .you are done.

It's up to you to listen and respect the answer.

I've pushed hard for clarity before.  I'm convinced you stepped up to that.  You were both in counseling.  She walked away (my understanding).

I AM a bit curious about what she means by "working on herself".  Any fruit coming from that?

For instance:  My wife refuses more MC right now.  Only wants to work with her "mentor".  I don't agree with this.

However, changes are obvious.  Changes are positive.  Perhaps I will reconsider my opinion as time passes.

My wife has made a choice.  I respect it... .

FF

I guess I didn't mean it in terms of following. People have a choice to what to believe or not- and I respect their right to choose.

I meant the role model- of what is a good person. I think how people determine their own ethics can vary. Jesus is both an example of self sacrifice, and a person who could stand up to others. Self sacrifice can also err into co-dependency- giving up all that you are for the sake of another.

I personally don't believe we are created to do that. I think we each have a unique value and so have the right to defend that value. A relationship with a disordered person can diminish how we see ourselves.

There are marriages where one partner is financially dependent on the other. If there is a divorce, I imagine the courts decide how to deal with that- and they consider the individual circumstances when they do.

I doubt most marriages are exactly 50/50. However, if ByFaith's wife chose to marry someone only as a means to support her and her son, and By Faith married assuming this would be a marriage, then the basis of this marriage isn't on a mutual agreement.

By taking his ethics with him, I believe that if he divorced, he would do this ethically, and if he stayed he would also act ethically. I don't think any of us is obligated to be a martyr in a relationship, however, people are free to make that choice as well.

I sometimes make the comparison, You can rightly make sacrifices in a relationship but don't sacrifice yourself.  Can you see the difference as I do?


Divorce attorneys have a reputation as being sharks and borderline unethical.  Frankly, most aren't but there can be a fine line between proactive versus aggressive.  We here don't know what her lawyer is like, but fact is her lawyer's obligation is to her alone, not you and not the two of you together.  He/she may be better than that but you can't count on it.  Therefore you, for your part, should have a capable family law attorney who will advise you on the optimal strategies and solutions, including warning you when you're letting your emotions get in the way and sabotaging yourself.  You lawyer won't be a 'meanie' but primarily keeping your interests to the fore and helping you avoid bad decisions that you could regret down the road once you pulled your head out of wherever.

Example 1, if you did proceed to divorce and you wanted to be "the Nice Guy" and gift her what she demanded, say, perhaps 60%, and then later after she'd run through the money and come back guilting you for more and you call your lawyer and ask why you even gifted her that much, he'll tell you, "I advised you against that much but your emotions were louder than my advice."

Example 2, if you did proceed to divorce and you wanted to be "the Nice Guy" but also listened to your lawyers practical advice and gifted her what was appropriate and not what she demanded, say, perhaps 10% (or whatever) and then later after she'd run through the money and come back guilting you for more and you call your lawyer he tell you, "I advised you to gift enough to satisfy the court and a normal outcome.  If you want to give her some more, then that gift would be optional and up to you.  You've been out of the relationship for a while and probably not buried so deep in the past emotions... .it's your choice to gift a little more if that's what you want."

Do you see the difference between examples 1 and 2?  In the first, you're guilted in the moment and regret later being obligated to gift so much, perhaps even overextending yourself.  In the second, You were reasonable and fair but not overly so and later on you could look back and decide whether or not to gift a little more... .  not guilted, not obligated, but freely giving within your financial and emotional comfort zone.  If you so decided.

Very well said!   |iiii



I do think that Byfaith should ask the attorney if there is an angle to "annul" the marriage based on "fraud" or based on "nonperformance".  Basically the years where she would not be intimate while Byfaith still provided a roof over her head and other support.

Also ask if there is an angle to push the settlement lower because of this, if annulment is not allowed.

Get the legal advice first, develop strategy before serving her or doing anything else. 

Recommendation is to not discuss divorce until you have decided a course.

FF

Usually an annulment requires the person who is seeking it to act immediately on the situation that presents itself - sometimes there is a timeframe in which a person has to act.

Byfaith, what kind of IRL support system do you have? How do they think about your situation?

Share or not to share... .which is done when?

• If your goal is to improve the marriage — and that goal is not unrealistic — then sharing is crucial, a marriage with both sharing appropriate matters becomes built upon mutual trust.
• If your decision is that the marriage is irretrievably failing or has failed, then you must limit what you share.  You have a right to confidentiality and privacy, especially when it comes to unwinding an unhealthy or dysfunctional marriage.  Just as when in court, you should not be forced to divulge your confidential information.  You do not have to submit yourself to interrogations, pressuring or guilting.  Divulging certain information or strategies can Enable a disordered spouse to sabotage you.  Sadly, this is a mindset you'll have to learn, divorce is best handled without the emotional overload.  With a disordered spouse, the emotional pressuring, guilting and obligating can be thrust upon us as a tremendous weight if we don't deflect that burden.