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Continued discussion from Feel Free to say I told you so (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=299812.0)

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I realize that I cant fix her or anyone but myself.  And thats what I intend to do.  Fix me, I deserve to ve the best version of myself I can be.

Yep! 
Do you know why you felt the need to fix someone else?

That wasn't the initial plan.  After I fell in love was when I started to try and save her.

Do they make it a point to try and hurt you?  She has already posted a bunch of stuff about her ex and how he is the greatest man who ever lived.

We do so much for the ones we love and want them to get better while with us. I would say it depends on the BPD individual. I know for mine, intentionally hurting me was always justified in her mind. I always did something to cause it in her mind. I always 'started it'... I 'made her' do it to me. It's rather sick. Remember their ability to re-write history? They can re-idealise exes of their choosing so I would not take those bunch of posts personally. Especially when they are lonely or ran out of other options. It's like they all follow the same script. They need an attachment, any that is willing to latch on to them again and meet their needs. It has nothing to do with him, and all to do with what she can get.

These posts, have everything to do with hurting me.   Thats whats upsetting, I don't that she cares about him at all.  Its all about inflicting pain on me.

Her post could be directed at him, you, both of you or for some other reason we do not know and why. It certainly has taken your attention and had a negative affect on you. I have read some triggering posts myself in the past. I got tired of always hurting and began associating my ex as pain itself and not something to look at while recovering. If you are to move on and dettach from her, I would suggest not looking at any of her posts anymore as much as possible and out of self preservation.

No they are for me, she sent me a message and asked if I had been on there.  So they were there with the sole purpose of hurting me or getting a response

Now she has told me she is back together with her ex.  I refuse to let my feelings for her hold me hostage.  I kinda hate her right now.  Questioning if she ever loved me. Or was it all just an illusion, did every I love you mean nothing?

I wouldn't blame anyone for the tangled mess these relationships can be, as so many have said and I believe to be totally true, unless someone has experienced this first hand, they simply can not grasp what it all entails.

I started out thinking I wanted to save my exgf from herself,
Then to save our relationship,
Then to save my life,
Now to save my son from her.

Never been in a relationship so... .insane. the back and forth the push/pull.  The fights over nothing.  The rage over feelings I cant understand.  Idk how you are supposed to make it work.

I am really sorry she has done that to you. When someone hurts us so much and with intention to do so our brains just can't comprehend why when they had been so loving towards us in the past. We have so much cognitive dissonance over the abuse and their ability to move on to someone else and them not even caring for how we feel by letting us know. Your case is another example of pwBPD just having no bleeping boundaries whatsoever!

Love is defined differently for everyone. A healthy kind of love certainly does not involve abuse in any way shape or form.

A lot of members on this board conclude that BPD loved us in the best way they knew how and conditionally based on how we make them feel and what they can get. That their version of love is one-sided where they love you because they saw you as this perfect person at the beginning that they coud get their needs met from until they feel as though they couldn't anymore.Their black and white thinking, fear of abandonment, emneshment and many other borderline symptoms take over after some time that make a relationship insecure and difficult to sustain.

I too questioned whether the love my ex had for me was genuine and real. I was skeptical during the idealisation phase knowing something wasn't quite right about someone being so in love with me and wanting to dive straight in. Not to say I am not lovable or a great person but I knew I wasn't THAT great for a stranger to decide that yep I was going to be the one for her and not be as wary. How bizarre it was to get into it all and just go with the flow. I really enjoyed the attention and time spent even when I knew it was a bit crazy.

I think one of the words that really hooked me in was that she felt safe with me like no other and would thank me as she felt kind of undeserving in a way. The white knight in me really liked the ego-stroke and hearing those kinds of things. I made all sorts of justifications in my mind to keep seeing her and fell in love her just the same.

I didn't realise that her issues ran very deep though. I felt I could handle and solve anything and similar to what JerryRG described as unless experienced before, you may not be able to grasp what being in a r/s will a BPD is going to really entail. To make a long story short, along came the inevitable devalution phase, the abuse and complete diregard for my feelings and the nagging question- did she really love me? was any of it real?

To answer that question you need to know what kind of love you want and deserve for yourself... .It needs to be more about you and the kind of love that you accept.

I felt like such a fool to not trust my gut at the very beginning knowing well of the obvious redflags throughout our relationship. I realised it was a matter of my underlying codependent traits, not knowing when the line should be drawn. Wanting to save and caretake was the only way I felt I could be loved by someone and the only way I knew how to express my love for someone. She was also the first person I gave a chance to and supposedly my lack of experience in love and relationships was another factor into getting into such a mess. Like you, I wanted to experience romantic love for the first time and have it work out.

Curiously

Its funny how so much alike everyones story is.  In the beginning she used to tell me how great I was, I even argued with her about it.  She used to get so mad because I was unable to take all the praise, I knew I wasn't that great.  She always said otherwise.   She quickly told me how in love she was with me, again too fast too much.  But slowly pver time I was sucked into it.  And then you start to depend on that love bombing, the praise, the need.   And then they take it away and you are left completely lost.   And they come back and the cylce starts all over.  My story is like so many others.  And the sad fact is I knew we wouldn't work out months ago and yet I stayed and fell in love.  And then when it started to go bad I knew again it wasn't going to work. And yet I tried over and over.  I have seen the writing on the walls and ignored it because it wasnt what i wanted.

that really makes you wonder... .and i don´t have an answer...

I know thats the worst no answers to be had.  When its over none of it made any sense. You have no closure

Oh OB, Of course it wasn't what you wanted, why would you? What you did was normal. You fell in love and wanted what we all want and you tried hard to keep it for both of you and even knowing it's not going to work doesn't mean you should not try does it? I know that I tried by learning about the illness, trying to help, accepting that it would be me that would have to work harder at us because he wasn't able to. I accepted and loved him for himself but sadly he couldn't do that for me. You have done the same. To me there is a comfort in knowing that I tried my very best and I know you have done too. We may have lost the ones we love OB, but it was never a fair fight. We were fighting an illness not an individual and I for one am heartbroken but proud to know I tried so hard, that's not weakness that's strength, you should be proud too   x

Sadly

I guess my problem is that the issue that ended us was my doing.  And I have to live with that. 

It really is strange... when we compare notes it is like they all follow the same script/manual!
It is good to hear that you also questioned how excessive it all was and asked questions about it like myself. I think we should stick to trusting our gut.
So many experienced love at first sight but I wasn't even that impressed at the beginning.
I felt I was being realistic but her being unrealistic and irrational at times I found cute/attractive. I saw it as her being little naive and her just taking a risk. I truly thought she was a plain fool at the beginning but in some cute way. I felt like what she did was potentially put herself in danger if she was to fall for the wrong person but yeah, her trust in me and feeling safe and enjoying being with me won me over. There must have been something about me? My first guess was that maybe shes so excited that I hadnt been in a relationship before and she had been hurt in the past and she thought I was perfect because of that lol I was safe. I couldnt think of any other reason why I was thought of as great she she was feeling at the time.
We were suckered in through their mere determination... and intensity... .and the flattery and then codependency.
The cycle is addicting and all we ever wanted was to love and be loved in return and to try and try again.
Like a slot machine. We continue to gamble for the reward of some of their jackpot love but end up losing mostly. Let's just quit, cut our losses, save our love for someone better, and learn from this experience.

Curiously

Yes the script is the same... .the idealization (which if you aren't a narcissist) is too much.  You know that you aren't that great.   The the clinging stage, they cant get enough of you.  Red flags... .then the fights from nowhere.  Finally I have been transformed (in her mind)from the ideal man to a spineless, weak, piece of... .

Oh well I gues it was fun while it lasted... .not sure what else to say about it.

Really? You were broken up--and it was her decision. So how is the fact that you dated someone else the thing that ruined this? How is it not whatever led her to push you away in the first place?

Idk i guess i feel guilty for what I did and for keeping it from her.

"Trust is the Mother of Love."

... for me it really comes down to that simple understanding. No matter what we all do, they never trust us; or sincerity, our logic, our feelings and... our unconditional love. And through that same belief, I've learned that their behaviors cause us not to trust ourselves; the blame and guilt they project. We subconsciously begin to not trust them completely too. Their behavior becomes much too unpredictable and we become uneasy (but try and repress it) and then question ourselves endlessly until we are pushed to our emotional (human) limit.

If you agree with the above quote... ? then perhaps in there is your answer of whether or not its something 'real' or just a fantasy.

I want to be in love, and be loved back.  But without trust, love is impossible.

You are only human OB. And, I'm sure you did really well for awhile and thought that they changed, and evolved as you did during your time apart... and I fell for the same belief. However, that only seems to happen in healthy r/s. Sadly, we all come to see that perhaps they never change. And these aren't consider 'healthy' r/s.

We're all on your side.

Mars

Thank you.  I know I am not blameless in our ending.  But I also know that I did try and I did everything that I could do to try and right my wrongs.

Did I  simply become addicted to the drama?  I can't for the life of me understand why it is that I continue to  miss a woman who wants nothing to do with me.  At times treated me worse than I have ever been treated by anyone enemy or stranger.  Has called me more hurtful things in the time we were together than everyone else for the rest of my life combined. I know she is bad for me, I know that despite the windows of good we had there would always be something to cause a fight.  Real or imagined, she could never allow us to be happy for to long.  Logically I know all of this.  And yet I find myself losing sleep, sitting on the edge of depression, a physical pain in my chest, my heart begging me to reach out to what causes me the most pain.
How do they do it?  Makes no sense.

Hello Oncebitten

For those outside looking in on these relationships it is puzzling as well, my pastor, who has helped me almost from the very beginning, calls it a "spell"

It's like magic, lol

One thing I try to keep in mind is, just like women who are abused horribly, will return to the abuser it may be some subtle form of mind conditioning, on the part of our so and ourselves.

Training elephants as infants, large chains are attatched to their leg, as they try to escape, the chain is simply too strong, eventually they believe it is hopeless to ever get away and just accept their fate. Later when they are full grown they can easily rip the chain apart, but they don't try anymore. They are convinced of a reality that isn't true.

I hope you break free

We regress to being our wounded child selves when we feel as if we are incapable on our own. When we are children we are dependent on our caregivers to meet our needs and on our own survival. Sometimes our caregivers were not so ideal and at times felt we could only get our needs met or keep a good relationship going if we catered to them. We may have felt the need to solve everything ourselves for that immediate sense of relief from the person who hurt us or may not have always acknowledged our feelings and or if they were emotionally unavailable. I think that is where all the pain comes from. Our past model and how we relate to those closest to us and whom we have depend on to develop securely. It is strange from a rational outsiders perspective to see somebody run back to a person who has abused them expecting a different result. It is the very definition of insanity too. We make excuses, justifications as to why we should go back but we know there is a deeper rooted truth to it all. BPD relationships bring out our old wounds we may have supressed/blocked out, not realising we still have them and have not healed them and them representing that unresolved pain we may think that by staying we have opportunity to fix what we couldn't in the past. We need to find ways to stop ourselves from leaning on others as a matter of getting that immediate sense of relief.  Again, it makes no sense for a rational outsider to see someone who is compellled to reach out to someone who they also deep down knows are not good for them and clearly isn't. But this is where we often get stuck.

Curiously

I have met the definition of insanity.   More recycles than you can count. Her constantly ending the relationship sometimes over nothing. Telling me all is forgiven then digging up the past and coming apart over some percieved wrong doing.  Concidences are impossible in her mind.  My mistakes weren't just mistakes, they were things that I did deliberately to hurt her.  And yet I still want her back.  I don't know what old wounds she found.  But they with her skilled hands have driven me to the brink of a breakdown.

I could not agree more with JerryRG and his pastor — it is a spell that they put on us. As, the power is certainly mystical and ancient in that way. How can one person control my behaviors and emotions? Its astonishing really.

But, you can break the spell OB. You've done it before. And you're just allowing yourself to remain within it poisons. They have penetrated your mind, coursed through your soul and you need to work out its toxins.

Yes, we can all sit here and logically tell you not to worry, its not you, she's the horrible one, explain the facts of the disorder , but, the real work begins with you not allowing yourself to think and ruminate on it. As we know these things are about distracting ourselves from the obsessive unsolvable equation of the pwBPD.

There has to be something you can do, or think about to catch yourself when you find yourself going down the rabbit hole of thought... .to pull yourself back out to your own present reality, and not to hers or the past. It's that moment you aren't present that begins the slide into your breakdown. Fight that urge OB.

You'll get there. You just a had a slight setback.

One simple thing that you can do when ruminating and thinking about her is to ground and center yourself.

Pick three things that you can see and describe them to yourself, out-loud if possible, in detail.

If the thoughts are still racing, pick three things that you can touch/feel. Work your way through all five senses if necessary.

Everyone makes mistakes. Find healing. Forgive yourself for your mistakes. Staying with her will just make you relive it. Feel guilt. And not improve your life.

Agreed she will never really forgive me and will place that guilt on me forever.  I addition I think she projects the guilt and shame she feels for her mistakes on me and expects me to shoulder those as well

I have to ask OB ... .when will it be enough?  Will you allow her to drive you to a breakdown before you say enough is enough?

Im there enough is enough

Nothing reminds me more of my past addictions, alcohol and tobacco, than hearing someone say, "enough is enough"

I fought so hard to quit smoking, I did it and then start up again but finally stopped years ago. When I quit drinking I gave up my close drinking buddy's and thought my life would simply fall into place, after all, wasn't drinking too much the cause of all my problems?

Nope, found out I drank because of my problems, the alcohol just allowed me to plow my way through my problems and injure others in the process.

It was my immaturity and selfishness and mainly fear that dominated my life and so I drank to ease the pain brought on by living in constant fear and pain.

This relationship was my drug, I had everything I needed, beautiful woman, her love, my love for her, intimacy, drama, excitement, thrills, challenges, highs, lows, lies, drama, chaos, confusion, fears, mistrust, hopelessness and eventual defeat.

I feel in love with love, a dream, a drug.

Idealization phase was intoxicating and I got hooked fast and deep. I would sell my soul for one more hit.

She knew I would follow her to the gates of hell for one more fix.

I fought to stay alive

I found the truth

It set me free

I still have to live with the effects of years of that toxin flowing through my soul

I created a god

It almost cost me everything

Yes, so much like addiction

It may help to consider that it's unlikely that her ambivalence is "really" about the states reason anyway. That's a handy pretext. Most all of our BPD partners had one. The more fixed your gaze becomes on this supposed reason, its unfairness etc., the more you're missing the point: it's about misgivings that stem from long ago experiences you can't possible redress or even anticipate.

You're a human being. You're not infallible. The guilt I feel over the mistakes I made in my relationship 7 months ago still eats at me sometimes. You have to let yourself be human and recognize we've all done things we're not proud of. It's not easy, but punishing yourself for the rest of your life is not the answer. Sometimes the hardest lessons are the ones we needed the most. It's also important that we only accept things we are responsible for. If a relationship breaks down, both parties are usually at fault to some degree.

Except not necessarily with BPD. OB didn't do anything wrong. The woman broke up with him AND had been invoking another attachment (with her ex) for a long time. Him dating someone else after she left bothers her, yes, but he is not therefore at fault for the initial breakup or her current behavior.

My guilt comes from upsetting her.  And while I realize that I probably shouldn't carry that guilt part of me can't help it.  My actions while a result of her actions have caused the woman I love pain.  And that bothers me.  Her issue is that she feels I had something of value with this other woman and therefore i triggered that fear of abandonment.  Again had she not abandoned me this wouldn't have happened.

Oh I wasn't saying he should feel incredibly guilty. It sounds like he was put through a lot. I was just saying that he doesn't need to carry any guilt that he does have forever. Sorry if it didn't come out that way.

why is it that once I am ready to walk out the door she wants to email, text, call.  She told me to never contact her again just a couple of days ago when I was still trying to save the r/s.

Because the current distance is what she is comfortable with.

What happened to the ex?

You know why, your not allowed to make that choice of leaving, remember, you have no choice, her way or no way. Mine used to be his way or no way, and back I would go. Remember that poem I wrote, I Hate You, Don't Leave Me ?
I HATE YOU DON'T LEAVE ME
In your world of broken dreams
Where torment cracks your soul when all your fears come out to play
And anger takes your whole
I pity you your inner child and ache to make you mend
But all of this just comes to naught
You do not want your friend.
I see suspicion in your eyes I see your anger grow
I cannot do a right for wrong
Or even let you know
It is not me that does you harm
Or pushes you away
The more I love the more you hate
Your nothing now, you say
And you are opening up the door
And pushing me outside
And yet your hand is gripping mine
Your tears you cannot hide
I stand alone out in the cold
I don't know what to do
My heart is broken, half of it,
I left inside with you
But as I turn so sadly now and quietly walk away
I hate you please don't leave I hear
and once again I stay.

I have re written the last line, it now goes
I know I cannot stay.

We have to re write the ending to our stories OB, cos surely nobody else can't  

You know why Once, she's responding to her fear of abandonment and trying to feel better.  And you have a choice about what you do about the communication attempts.  Best to focus on the goal, which is detachment, yes?

FHTH

I know, just tough to wrap my head around.  IDK how you tell someone you hate them, tell them you never want to speak again.  wish them nothing but misery and when they are gone come up with an infinite number of ways to reach out.  Just confuses me.

Yes, mental illness is confusing.  Best to stay the course and the confusion will go away.  Trust us for now, and when the fog clears you can trust yourself again.

Has any one ever asked a pwBPD... .doesn't the back and forth exhaust them?  I have only been doing this for a year not a lifetime.  I guess they never see it as a problem

as far as I know he is still in the picture

Sadly yes I remember your poem, so powerful so true to all of us here I know.  I know the condition the illness.  I have been here long enough, read enough.  Talked with you all enough to know how this plays out.  I guess logic gets the better of me.  And I know that logic cannot be use with a pwBPD.  But my mind cant help but try and apply it.  In all my days it has never failed me, until I met her.  Perhaps that's why we were such a bad fit.  A woman who's emotions run her life , and a man who does everything he can to make sure his emotions influence him as little as possible.

OB: you've written many posts in this vein over the time I've read your story. I think this right here is a big barrier for you: you are choosing a state of confusion despite a ton of information about how this can happen. PwBPD struggle with contradictory impulses toward and away from closeness, feel threatened by merger, but seek it, don't know how to maintain the line btwn themselves and others, feel if they let themselves be too close the other will annihilate them, don't trust that they can protect themselves, often have little insight so externalize responsibility for all this, project and deny.

It is heartbreaking, devastating ... .But I'd submit, at this point, not confusing. It is utterly predictable.

You can choose to keep participating but please work on letting go of confusion. It may have become an excuse for avoiding decision-making.

That's interesting OB, because if you apply logic to what you are doing now, with all of your knowledge of BPD and its component parts, then logic must tell you to walk away. Are you applying logic, doesn't sound logical or is it justification that is keeping you where you are? Or, is it in fact emotion the thing you are fighting hard not to have?
 

And sometimes we don't see it as a choice because we're lost in the fog.  Lots of people are giving you lots of great info Once, and you'll be able to integrate all of it with time, although remember it's only been a couple of days since you last spoke, and a week ago it seemed like you were still trying to make it work.

So all you need to know for now is: Don't communicate with her, in any way.

And that will feel strange, weird and different, but you need to get some time away from her influence under your belt so you can start integrating the rest of what we're all learning together.

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