BPDFamily.com

I've read about different treatments for BPD, however, I do not believe there can or ever will be a cure to this illness.

If my BPDex was to ever gain true insight into her illness and the behaviours she has perpetrated against myself (and presumably the others before me which she has vilified) then she would be overcome with such shame and guilt that she would be sicker than she ever was before.

The best she can hope for is partial insight which will allow her to function into the future.

Why is this good for me? Because understanding that my ex can NEVER change helps in detaching from her.

Today is day 32 of NC since the final discard and I am struggling mightily with depression and to go more than a few minutes without her dominating my thoughts.

Mind you, I don't need any more logical reasons to detach from her, of those there are plenty. It is just that my emotions have nowhere near caught up with my mind. However, perhaps it will help to build up further reasoning, in case the highly unlikely scenario of her trying to recycle should occur.

I fully understand what you are saying. I have been discarded 5 weeks ago, and today marks 29 days of NC. Instead of thinking about her less and less, I keep wondering more and more how she can just leave without looking back. Yes, yes, I know how BP's usually think or feel. I know it is the disorder. But still. It hurts to be discarded like that. As if I meant nothing more than a piece of toilet paper flushed down the toilet.

Hang in there though. People on here say it does get easier. I desperately need to believe it does. Because I find myself thinking about her almost every second of the day. Crazy. Its probably the opposite with her right. I doubt she ever thinks about me in a loving way. The sad thing is... .I want her to try and recycle. And I want to be able to say no to that. If she tried to recycle, I would at least feel worth more than a piece of paper. But it is not going to happen. Anyway, hang in there, you are not alone.

I too believe that at this moment in time BPD is incurable. I believe that it is a physical illness due to differences in the brain. Like yourself this thought process has helped me to detatch as is removes any hope of them suddenly getting better.

That said with neuro plasticity we see that the brain can physically change. Stroke victims can utilise unused parts of the brain to take on lost abilities such as speach and motor control. With genetic research genes can be targeted that may be in play with PDs. Hormones can be balanced producing reduced behaviour extremes. These things are probably a long way from providing effective help though as we understand more about the moon than we do the brain.

 C<||| TheRose, I feel identically. But I do need more time before I'd wish any attempt at a recycle. I am working on myself (despite the depression) every single day. Although my thoughts are filled with her, I spend every single waking moment improving myself. If I'm not working out, then I'm learning French, If I'm not learning French, then I'm renovating my house, if I'm not doing that, then I'm learning to ride my motorbike or planning my 7 week vacation to Paris. I'm seeing a Psychologist and a Psychiatrist and eating well.

If she does attempt a recycle, I not only want to say NO, but I want to do it emphatically and for her to know that she has missed out. But right now, I'm not ready, I don't even know if I am strong enough to say NO, let alone make her regret her decisions and behaviour.

 C<||| enlighten me, I guess the thing I am getting at is that even if such a cure does come about, how will someone with BPD ever be able justify their past actions and take responsibility for all the truly disgusting things they have done? For them to get truly better, they would have to understand the wrongness of their past. This in itself would be enough to cause them such shame and guilt that they might very well be better off never having been 'cured' in the first place and to just go with their projections and believing in their fictional reality.

I agree snowmonkey and depending on the age of the person and the severity of their actions then the guilt and shame would take a lot of work to recover from.

To put a spin on it. What if a person had a brain tumour that caused them to behave inappropriately. Once cured they would feel guilt and shame but they had an excuse for their behaviour so the burden of shame would not be so great.

Let me ask. If BPD was proven to be something physical like in the case of a brain tunour would you forgive the pwBPD if they appologised for their behaviour?

Hi Enlighten me,

You do raise an interesting question and I am tempted to sit on the fence, but I won't.

Almost all pwBPD do have periods of time of clarity, if they choose to ignore their thoughts during those times then they must take responsibility for their actions. But more than this;

They know many of their behaviours are wrong and hurtful, even when they have no insight and clarity. For example, if they truly think that cheating is ok, then why cover it up with lies? They know they have done terrible things to people and hence they will avoid them because of their shame. In short, there is an awareness with pwBPD and given this awareness exists I cannot forgive.

So, no, even if BPD is proven to be caused by a physical problem within the brain (and some studies do suggest physical differences between BPD brains and 'normal' brains) I can not forgive what has happened. Is not being able to forgive good or bad for me? Well, right now, I cannot tell, I suppose it might help protect me if the unexpected happens and she comes back... .although I doubt this very much as we are both very well aware of her disgusting behaviour.

I learnt a great deal from going onto forums for people with BPD. I read so much from so many. There were those in different stages of treatment, mainly DBT and anxiety meds. A lot of the posts made me cry. I suppose it was there that they felt safe enough to describe their selves, the anonymity allowed it. Truly heartbreaking to hear about the deep dark emptiness inside themselves, the pain they felt when standing outside of themselves watching them destroy a person they loved and who they knew loved them. The fear that their whole lives and those of people they loved would be ruined. Some wanted or had tried to die, some explained how their NON also had problems, and why not, non of us are perfect. Some hadn't got that far and it was all our faults. Some had hope and others had non. Some decided when they felt stronger they would try and apologise to their ex's and some where sad that they would never be able to do that because what they had done was so evil. It was like a flip side of this forum. The sadness, the anger, the grief. It helped me to let go, I love my ex very much, I hate what he has done, he will never be in those boards, he is lost and I can't help him. Please read their stories, understand them, don't forget they are not lying, for once they don't need  to but whatever you do and however you feel don't join in, that is their safe place as this is ours. A recovering BPD girl once came here, her therapist advised it, she was lovely and was trying to explain herself and ask questions. She fled, heartbroken and angry because she was vilified and hung out to dry by angry people. We all need understanding and love, them and us. X

Let me ask another question. Have you ever behaved rashly and done something your not proud of? If so did you always own up?

Yes pwBPD have moments of clarity and its in those moments that the guilt and shame are apparent.

I have two uBPD exs and their cycles of behaviour are almost identicle. The only thing that seperates them is the timing of the cycles. I have witnessed and read many things that truely lead me to believe they are not fully in control.  Im no doctor or pschiatrist. Im an engineer by trade and when something isnt working how it should theres always a reason. A machine doesnt choose to act irratically and the human brain is a machine.

Yes most definitely, I am sure we have all done things rashly and shame has not allowed us to own up to it or owned up and realised that some people didn't understand and though honesty may have been the right thing it caused us so much grief we wish we hadn't bothered.
I also am an engineer and see exactly what you are saying and I agree when a machine breaks down we fault test until the fault is found. Doctors and psychologists fault find our brains to find out what is wrong but the difference is the brain is the most complex piece of machinery ever produced and emotions are heavily involved otherwise we would all be robots.

I have certainly acted rashly on occasion and not owned up. But my behaviours didn't involving sleeping with a guy and 8 of his friends or beating the carp out of the person who loved me most in the world.

And my rash behaviours and covering up were not daily occurrences.

I'm not an engineer, but I am a scientist. The brain is a machine, part of a much bigger machine. And the sole purpose of this machine? To simply procreate. And does the behaviour of a BPD help them procreate? In my opinion, yes, quite possibly. So... .Is there really a problem with their brains? Maybe they have just found their own little evolutionary niche which allows them to survive and perpetrate their genes?

I agree snowmonkey. For me BPD behaviour is what we see as  normal behaviour taken to an extreme. Our behaviour probably seems as alien to them as theirs is tous. The only difference is ours complies to the social norms.

Throughout history certain traits have thrived.  Strong rulers where most likely heavily influenced by ASPD traits. As you say BPD are very good at reproducing so it makes sense that they perpetuate the survival of the dissorder.

Sorry, you said you were an engineer.
Listen, I know, have felt the disgust at their actions, have been hurt and betrayed to incomprehensible levels. Have sunk into a depression so deep I nearly ended my life. I am so sorry that all of us have to deal with this.
Regarding the difference between brain and machine there are varied and interesting debates to be found. Yes I know they have moments of clarity, they are human beings and feel shame. Their coping mechanisms differ from ours, why wouldn't they, it's their protection, what the emotive part of their brain puts into place for survival. i am not trying to make excuses but I am willing to read and understand their problems.
As for the procreation, sorry, don't agree. I don't believe that BPD sufferers deliberately choose to procreate in order to reproduce their own little frankensteins. They get pregnant or impregnate for the same reasons we do.

I have two points on what you said sadly.

My first is in evolution we ssee distinct behaviours that differ in the same species that enable them to continue. Why would this be different in humans. Im not saying BPD as a dissorder is purely there for reproduction. What you may have is behaviours that enable reproduction but are balanced with non desirable ones. Thus the non desirable ones are also passed down. Why cant this be the case? If male pattern baldness or eye colour can be passed down then anything is possible.

As for the brain it is a machine with a lot of inputs. If you simplified it to a car engine then you need fuel, air and a spark. These have to be added in a specific way for the engine to funtion smoothly. If any one is out of balance then the engine loses performance. You can have an engine thats not tuned but still runs. It may seem fine until too much is asked of it. The brain is like an engine but it has more than three inputs. You have a multitude of hormones and chemicals that must be balanced for correct operation. If these are out of balance then like the engine  it can seem to be functioning normally but when stressed it fails or operates irratically. Unlike the engine the brain can try to rebalance things. Hormones such as oxytocin, cortisol and setotonin may temporarily change things.

This is only my opinion based on what ive read and what I have witnessed. For me it makes sense. It is what has allowed me to move on and not be bothered by my exs behaviours.

Dear sadly, I have read your posts and I truly have empathy for you. Likewise, the thought of ending this misery has crossed my mind many times. Even today, as I do everything humanly possible to fight off this depression, I still see no point and meaning to this life anymore. Like you, I feel terrible for everyone on this message board. I never understood the depths of depression that a person can reach. But this is why I can never forgive my ex, for although I played my part, I loved truly, honestly and with more of myself than I have ever given before. What some of my exes would have given to have been loved by me in that way! And despite how much I loved and cared for her, I was knowingly betrayed. And this brings me back to my original point... .My exBPD has disgraced herself in such a manner that she can never get better.

Dear enlighten me, we are on the same page. I like your car analogy! I too will have to reason along similar lines to move past this hurt. If I feel any more than I do now, I won't make it through. From an emotional point of view, I can't possibly comprehend what has been done to me over the past 3 and a half years. Maybe in time, a lot of time I will be able to allow myself to feel again, but for now I must apply logic, scientific reasoning and sheer force of will to move on.

Hello Snowmonkey,

I'm sorry to hear that you're currently in a bad place & having a difficult time with things. I see with about 60 post you've been here for a little while reading, learning. You have an interesting post here but i really wanted to address your depression and the anxiety that you might be continuing to have.

We've all been there, deep depression, the constant thoughts about our exBPD & all that come with that. I know you're a scientist and by definition apply logic to most everything ln life. You apply cause & affect methodology in your daily life from work to eating a piece of cake or pie. If I eat the pie it will taste good for only a few moments but I'll have to be in the gym for 6 hours to work it off. If my exBPD does "A" then my reactions will be "B" and as a result "C" will happen. They are severely broken people and all the Kings men & all the Kings horses couldn't put them back together again. We can talk about you wanting to "recycle" later ... .nothing good will come from that & I hope you will soon learn this. It helps with the healing process.

STOP APPLYING LOGIC TO YOUR exBPD~!  Their actions or inactions will NEVER be logical and I believe as a NON aka codependent it's one of the reasons we find it so hard to detach and move on with our lives. You will just spin your tires getting no where like me & others before me if you apply logic to this Cluster B mental illness. I would agree with you that BPD is beyond modern medical science to cure & the best anyone can hope for us some "Modification & some management" of this Very Serious Cluster B Mental Illness. So lets move on to something YOU can control ... .YOU.

You have to know that this HAS been & will ALWAYS be about YOU. YOU need to get to a better place. YOU need to live & enjoy YOUR life! How do you get there? A LOT of work on yourself snow monkey.  You're seeing both a physiologist & a physiatrist & this is a very positive step in the right direction. It takes a great amount of strength to actually ask for help. So I really do commend you on this step. As you might have read on a couple of post, this is one of a few key's you have to do in order to get past your exBPD.

You need to do a deep dive on yourself to find out why you are the codependent that you are.You need to look to your past & learn so that you can look to  your future & grow. You might not like what you find but when you do you will find some of the answers you seek. This is another key to unlocking your path forward. IMHO it is the biggest key on your journey. You learn why you behave the way you do, why you are the NON, Sheriff with the shining badge, the Knight in Amor. You'll learn why you are attracted to those with BPD because I'm willing to wager that this isn't this isn't the first BPD in your life. Once you learn those things and a couple of more from your deep dive can you apply that "Logic" to yourself. You can then see the warning flags of a possible BPD r/s and move on. Trust me, once I learned all of this, I looked at possible partners in a different life but more importantly I applied my new life learning skills to myself. I avoided further BPD r/s and this was so worth the deep dive in the end.

So now lets work on your physical portion of YOU to help YOU get to a better place. You said you were trying to stay busy to avoid the thoughts of your exBPD and then falling into a depression. This is good, working on your house & learning French, learning to ride your motorcycle. All great things!  You're trying to take care of you. Do you use your French while working on your house? example, in French do you say out loud, "I need my hammer" or "Where did I put my bag of nails?".   Be sure you're eating right and stay away from junk food. I would suggest you reach out to an old friend that you haven't talked to for some time and catch up with them. You don't need to talk about your exBPD but just catch up on life. Go to the pub with a couple of buddies and get a good beer & watch the soccer game or sport of your choice. Get out for a walk in the morning ... .15 minutes in the morning as the sun comes up will do AMAZING things for you!

Which brings me to the next thing, enjoy the small things in life. No matter where you live in the world there is a place you can watch a sunrise in wonderment of it all. As I type this I am watching the sun come up over the mountains where I live. The dark night sky with pin pricks of light from billions of miles alway is awesome in itself. But it starts to give way to a dull yellow & orange glow far off in the distance. I start to see the outline of the mountains a little more as the sun seems coming up fast. I see the darkness & stars fade away now and whips of clouds start to turn pink as the blue sky in the background becomes more bluer. The outlines of the mountains more clear ... .I start to hear the birds sing and wake the rest of nature from the night of rest. I sip my coffee and take a moment in stare in amazement of the colors now. The whips of white clouds are all pink almost a red color. I can see the trees now more than I did just 5 minutes ago. I look in a different direction and see the sky as a darker purple in the west where the sun is just now starting to hit it. I see the orange of the sun break the mountain top & the rays like lasers pop over the tops to light up the valley. I take another sip of my coffee ... .sit back ... .take a deep breath ... .and I tell myself ... .what an amazing day this is going to be. It's a beautiful start to another day and I actually wonder how many people who have read this will do this tomorrow ... .or the day after.  It is an amazing thing to watch snow monkey that doesn't cost anything but pays me tenfold in appreciating the small things in life. I challenge you & everyone else to do this. It really does put a different perspective on life and you know those other things ... .they don't seem so important anymore. I watch the sun come up like this at least 3-4 days a week ... .honestly. It has really grounded me.

Getting to a better place from your experience with a BPD is going to be one of the biggest challenges you have ever faced BUT it's NOT impossible. I and others have been where you are & we're in a better place. We've been depressed, we've had many sleepless nights, we've lost or gain weight, we've not got out of bed, we've drank beyond what we should of, we've lost friends, we've lost family. But we survived and YOU will too.

This life you live ... .this is YOUR life! YOU only have to make yourself happy! YOU are responsible for YOURSELF!  Life is short ... .to short ... .we only get one so make it the best one that you can.  Come back here as often as you need too. The group is always going to be here for you to vent to, bounce ideas off of or just talk.

J

Here are a couple of things that have helped me through some difficult times ... .I gave both to a therapist friend of mine and she said she was going to try & incorporate them into her therapy when she could ... .

"Even the most confident & motivated people will need a helping hand at some point in their life."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZQeMv5PXhg


"The most important life lesson I've ever learned is this, sometimes people leave, and sometimes unexpectedly, take a deep breath, morn the lost, and start living again."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsIYlgrov3k

I just wanted to say thank you for your thoughtful response JQ, I really appreciate it.

To be perfectly honest, I don't think I am anywhere near strong enough right now to do the deep dive that you talk about. Besides, I don't really think there is much there. I'm starting CBT next week with my psych which might uncover something.

For now though, I can't seem to get past the trauma of the last 3.5 years. My anxiety is overwhelming, the fatigue that accompanies my depression is exhausting and I repeat the same question over and over in my head; how could you do those things to me?

I'm not ready to break down the events of the past and see how I let myself get into this situation and I certainly don't need lessons about avoiding such relationships in the future. It will be years if not decades before I could consider loving anyone else.

I guess another thing I think about when I consider my role in this is; I gave far beyond what would 'normally' be expected of a partner in a relationship. Where is the fairness in asking me to analyse my part? Do we ask combat veterans what drove them to join the army when they come home with PTSD from war? Do we ask the firefighters who survived the events of 9/11 to do a deep dive into why the choose to be a firefighter? Both of these groups new far, far more than I that they had taken on lives and roles which would expose them to trauma and disaster. Me... .I met a beautiful woman whom I fell in love with and gave everything I possibly could to be with. I had no idea of the wounds she could cause me, yet I am to think deeply about my role in this. I don't know, it just seems that we are heaping more blame on ourselves when that is pretty much all we have experienced for the past few years.

My self esteem is at an all time low, I think further self-recriminations at this stage will only serve to drag me even lower.

Notwithstanding, I do appreciate your thoughts and if I can drag myself out of bed in the morning I will take your advice to watch a sunrise. I am certainly awake early enough, just can't seem to bring myself to push the blankets off and put one foot in front of another.

Hi snowmonkey,

I really get what you are saying above, and can relate very much to your feelings of depression. I certainly would say that I fell into a depression after my breakup—to the point of not seeing the point of living anymore as well. Not that I would ever act on those thoughts. But a profound apathy seemed to take over my—up until then—usual joy and curiosity about life.

I think there is a time for digging deep and a time for lots of TLC. In the throes of grieving the loss I think a steady diet of compassion and self-care is in order. Then, when the time is right, I think digging deeply into our own reasons for acting as we did can be very liberating. In my view, it's important to do it as an exploration/investigation, to gather insights—not an excuse to blame ourselves, which most of us are already too good at.

Then our experiences with pwBPD can be reframed as giving our life meaning, rather than happiness, as Viktor Frankl might say.

My depression did lift, thankfully. I wish the same for you, and soon.  

heartandwhole

Hi Snowmonkey
Good advice, never mind the deep dive just yet, you look after you. I do know what this depression is like, I too struggled to get up, sometimes if I managed to get up I thought, what's the point and went back to bed. There were days I didn't bathe and days I didn't eat or ate too much. I made myself go out to the shop only when I ran out of cat food ( not for me ) :) or cigarettes ( not for cat). Some days I would cry all day. I got antidepressants several times but couldn't find one that didn't make me feel ill though if I had I would have welcomed them. I was a total mess and felt totally worthless and pointless. I couldn't even summon up the urge to be angry. I read here constantly and tried to do as advised but quite often didn't. I had already left my job and never tried to get another, even the sensible little voice that popped up occasionally telling me "earn, pay rent, homeless beckons" got squashed cos I didn't care. It passed, slowly, gradually and if Icould tell you how I would in a heartbeat. All I can tell you is I love reading. When I wasn't here I read, novel after novel, pure escapism. Day after day, night after sleepless night I read. The real world started intruding and bit by bit I let it. And do you know what, I am not ashamed of the state I got into, nor am I casting blame around, it was what it was, end of. My life is brighter now, am looking for work and see a future and there will be one for you too I promise you.   xx

Thank you heartandwhole and sadly.

I am so sorry that you have both been where I am now. But I am glad for you that you have (to some extent) recovered. You are both in my thoughts.

And you my friend are in mine. If ever you want to when things get bad you can always pm me and I will be there for you just as everyone will be here for you.   x

Good Morning Snowmonkey,

I'm really feeling for you right now ... .and I would certainly agree with everything that heartandwhole has said. Please don't interpret my earlier post as something you need to do right away but as heartandwhole has pointed out, there is a time and place for it. I merely pointed out as they did that it is a important part of the exploration and explanation, gather insights. It isn't an excuse to blame ourselves. I would very much agree with H&W that it is a time for self-care and compassion.

The self-care portion of it is getting out of bed to watch that sunrise. You need to take care of you, it starts with baby steps, one baby step at a time. This is a process and it needs to start somewhere. If you're not getting enough sleep, might I suggest you look into taking Melatonin to help you. DON"T worry it's not a drug & in fact you can find it in your vitamin isle at the grocery store. I happen to take 20mg at night still to help me, but it's probably because I'm older and the body just doesn't produce enough of it. LOL  It's a natural hormone produce in your brain to naturally help you become drowsy & fall asleep. During time of high stress, "Like breaking up with a BPD", the body doesn't produce enough of it so you don't sleep. I was actually turned on to this by my flight surgeon when I was flying in the military. We would fly around the clock or cross a lot of time zone & the body clock would get screwed up. SO they told us about this. Trust me, I couldn't take an aspirin without the flight surgeon approval. In the beginning of my BPD recovery I was taking 60mgs just to get me to bed & close my eyes. Eventually with enough time I began to sleep & reduced it to 10-20mgs now just because I don't sleep well from my time in the military.

More self care, you're probably not eating right or as good as you can. Be sure to really put an effort into this because nothing good comes from junk food including your poo.   :)  Now that is true but also suppose to bring a smile to your face with some light humor. which brings me to the next thing. Laugh, get out to a comedy club with a couple of buddies on a Friday or Saturday night. Watch some comedies on Netflix or the comedy channel.  Laughter helps more than you think.

Like I said, call an old friend that you might have lost touch with. This does so much for you, it's food for the soul.

Really try to get out for that walk or a bike ride or a run. Even if it's only for a mile at first, it only takes about 15 minutes to walk a mile on a bad day ... .remember baby steps. It'll really help with the stress by reducing some of the bad hormones and getting some of the good hormones running through out your body.

There are the references to the right of the page here ----->>>>

I would also suggest books that you can find at your local library like "The Human Magnet Syndrome", "Stop Walking on Eggshells", "I Love you, I Hate you, Don't leave me".

You're getting the professional help that all of would agree helps with the process too. This is an amazing step Snowmonkey and you should be proud of yourself as we all are.

As the group as said, this is a process to get to a better place. We've all had to walk this journey ... .because it was OUR journey to walk. Some of us took shorter times to get to the other side, some of us took longer, but Heart&Whole, Sadly, Enlighten me, have made it to the other side and WE know you will join us soon enough when you're ready. The journey you must walk will be filled with pot holes, bumps along the way, don't worry so was ours. But the group here help each and everyone one of us work through it. They held up a hand to help me, Sadly, EnlightenMe, and H&W up. They dusted us off and then we continued our own journey again. As will you

Take a deep breath and slowly let it out. Things are going to get better. Come here to chat about whatever you want, no one here will pass judgement on you. As Sadly as pointed out, we'll all be here for you.

You got this and we got you  |iiii

J

Hi JQ
Lovely thoughtful post
Hi Snowmonkey
Hope you are feeling a bit better today. If you feel like it let us know what you have been doing and how you are feeling. Don't worry about what you write, be angry, sad, hopeful whatever, it helps to get it out sometimes and believe me no one minds and everyone cares  . X

My heart is really hurting for you snowmonkey and the others here who have posted or maybe just read through feeling the some of the same hopeless feelings... .

Thank you JQ and others for the very thoughtful and encouraging thoughts and reminders that can help anyone as they continue to self care and move forward with their life... .It's helped me!

As a part of my self care I have been going to an excellent therapist. His take on my wife's BPD is that "talk-therapy" does not work. DBT work can help reduce the effects of cycling just like medication can help too but in the end you're right it doesn't cure anyone of BPD... .

He did however mention that he is certified in a type of intensive therapy that is used with PTSD victims like soldiers. It is used with BPD patients to actually go back to the original trauma's the person has had. It was described to me like a set a train tracks. The tracks represent the highways that synapse messages take in our brains. The trauma in essence blows a gap in the train tracks preventing the correct messages from shaping our personality. This kind of trauma therapy goes back to the original trauma and works to clear the rubbish from the tracks and reestablish the correct path so the victim can get healing. He says that it is MAJOR MAJOR work and that while it has proven successful in helping BPD's, the fact that it is such MAJOR work and because of the diminished awareness of BPD's, it is difficult for them to see the work process through.

On the flip side, as dark as some days may seem or feel, like you I do want help and recovery. I have to believe that WILL account for something in our lives and it gives me hope to continue to live, breath and heal.

Only good thoughts for you all... .

Hi Group

 C<||| Sadly,   thank you for the kind words. Self care is so very important in the process & for us NON aka Codependents it is a VERY difficult thing to learn. "To take care of ourselves first."  I go back to the 51% rule here.

 C<||| RD,  :thought: the type of therapy you speak of for PTSD in the military is called EMDR. I have been in this therapy for my PTSD while i was in the military. I can speak first hand experience that this does work in the horrific trauma suffers for several different reasons. It has been used in combat related PTSD, trauma & PTSD as a result of rape, or any other trauma related event in one's life that could cause PTSD. My doc told me that they had treated people in special forces to people who wear stars on their collar. They have worked with men & women. You are VERY correct in that it is a VERY difficult process to go through even for the most harden combat vet.

But I will tell you that the process works. From what my doc told me it works in about 94-96% of the cases that they treat as a department. I can speak of my events without falling apart & "loosing" it. I took a refresher after my BPDgf experience and I'm here to tell you that IT DOES WORK!  So yes I would recommend EMDR therapy for any NON who is still having a difficult time with their break up from their respective exBPD.  Be sure that they are not only certified to conduct such therapy but have good experience with it. It will be the most traumatic time you will experience and the process is highly stressful. In fact not only myself but another buddy who suffered from PTSD from and IED incident went through EMDR and it saved his life ... .literally. But they had to take both of us who were in highly stressful jobs to not so stressful jobs due to the treatment. Again, I can personally recommend it because it works.

As far as EMDR working on someone who has BPD, it would be interesting to see the process results. BPD is not only a "software" problem but it is a "Hardware" problem. There are MRI studies to show the the neuro highway isn't connected in the brain & certain parts of the brain have been retarded in growth. BPD is a very complex & serious Cluster B Mental illness. And as it's been pointed out, you can "Manage" the mental illness to a certain degree but currently there is no cure.

ON a lighter note ... .it would be nice to know if anyone has woking up before the sun & had a cup of coffee, tea, Pepsi while watching the sun come up?  No two are ever the same & it is truly keeping me grounded as to what is really important in life.

Keep breathing Snow Monkey and others. It does get better, a lot of us here are proof of that.  |iiii

J

 C<||| JQ 

JQ, thank you for the response... .THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE! Wow I am so happy for you and any of your buddies that can find help through EMDR... .I have been thinking about it for myself at some point as well but I will continue to look into it. Your post was very helpful and had several great insights.

As your sunrise question. Yes I do from time to time. Strangely I never used to do this before or derived as much pleasure from it as I do now... .There is a calming and grounding effect, so you're right about that... .also, I've never been someone to catch a sunset or a sky lit up and take a picture of it... .But now I do! I just seem to appreciate little things that I was too busy to notice before... .Enjoying the small things really gives significance and meaning back into my existence and purpose... .Good topic

There are no guarantees in life. Who knows what will happen to your ex. Something you will have to face reality of.

Interesting discussion so far.  |iiii

I understand that this might be a means to closure for you, but it also shuts down a large part of what being empathetic and compassionate should be. I get the feelings. We want to be able to say that when all is said and done that we had no control. But it is scapegoating our past partners to believe something that ultimately doesn't have to effect us so drastically.

You can work through the grey area of what the disorder implies—you can move on. With a rigid mentality like 'it has to be incurable', you put yourself at risk for losing an opportunity to see what exactly got you into the situation you found yourself in. In other words, you stay the same. Give yourself this chance to grow. You deserve it.

Well said, Valet.

I have to disagree valet. For me thinking that BPD is incurable (at this moment in time) has made me more empathic. My exs are no longer nasty pieces of work that use and abuse people. They to me are people who can be good but are driven to do bad things. I dont hate them, I dont have false hope that they will suddenly change, Ihave been able to detatch in a healthier way. Going nc and cutting them out may bea means to an end but does it solve anything? With greater understanding comes greater empathy.

Like I said at the begining we all have our own processes and for me I believe this mindset has worked best. Also bear in mind a lot of us have children with our exs so cant just shut the door on the past.

Thanks for everybody's thoughts. I really appreciate that so many people have engaged in the discussion and have my back. A couple of things;

The original title of my post was "IMO BPD is incurable", it was changed by a mod. And I truly believe this (at least for those pwBPD that have done disgraceful things to other people). If they ever come to be cured and understand that they have ruined other people's lives through their behaviour then they would now have this realisation to deal with.

This doesn't change my ability to feel empathy for them, rather it increases my ability. Knowing they have an incurable illness rather than they being temporarily vile people gives me more empathy. That said, I could never forgive my ex.

This doesn't hinder my progress to getting better, nor to one day exploring my role in the relationship. What it does, is allow me to give up my hope that she could come back and we could make it as a couple. It is not about what her future holds, it is about the understanding that as she will never be better, we have no future together.

Well put Snowmonkey
I have read some stuff on sites for BPD sufferers and just as on here there are varied opinions usually dependant on the stage they are in of their treatment. Some are sad and horrified at the distress and pain they have caused those that loved them, some say that they hope one day to forgive themselves and be forgiven as they accept it was a mental illness that caused this. Some are angry and still in denial and vilify nons for not being understanding, in fact there is one thread were our site here has caused outrage and anger with statements like " who do they think they are these non monkeys talking about us as if we were monsters. It's all a mess. They are all there for a reason, the same as we are here, sadly my ex will never be on any site as he is one who will never ever concede that there may be something wrong with him.
I don't blame him, I can't, I still hurt and I do mourn the loss of someone I loved, who briefly loved me as much as he was able and is very very lonely. However I have let go. He is still in my thoughts, how could he not be, only time will take care of that but it doesn't now impede my progress of moving forward with my life. I wish that for all here and for all the sufferers of BPD. I wish a cure could be found, they would have to learn to deal with what they had done just as we have to learn and deal with why we allowed it to happen to us. You are doing well Snowmonkey, really well.   x

You wrote this a while back... .


Building your recovery on the foundational belief that everyone's ex, child, parent, spouse is hopelessly incurable is not that. It's creating a false reality to cope with life. Many of the ex's here don't even rise to the level of clinical BPD", so in that sense, they are already cured. Studies show that upwards of 80% of people with BPD will drop out of the diagnostic range after 10 years - meaning not having 5 of 9 DSM criteria. One of our moderators is walking tall with her recovered 19 year old daughter. Do you need her to agree with this reality, too?

At a very basic level, you lost someone you loved. Worse yet, she exited the relationship and that level of rejection is extremely painful - most everyone here has felt that pain. Whether she was a member of Mensa or institutionalized in a mental ward, you would be feeling the same loss. The pain is inside you... .

There is a evolutionary reason that this hurts so much - there is a lesson to be learned about mating. It's important to learn it for you to grow and thrive.

Here is an article on differentiation: https://www.thebowencenter.org/theory/eight-concepts/differentiation-of-self/  You may not be ready for this right now, that's OK, but take 5 minutes to read it and plant that seed that you talked about last March.

We're all in this together.

 C<||| Valet / Skip, After getting to the other side of my r/s with my exBPDgf, I can say I am more empathic for her, my step mother, my step sister & 1/2 brother, "all BPD".  I certainly don't hate them, but I do truly feel sorry for them for they are very broken people with really no chance of maintaining a r/s with me or many others who have come in & out of their life.

 C<||| SnowMonkey, I have a very dear long time friend of mine who conducts training to staff on BPD & conducts therapy sessions for those who suffer from BPD with and without comorbidity's both one on one & group therapy.  She has told me they are very broken people. My research into everything BPD has led me to find multiple MRI studies by world renowned institutions such as Harvard Medical School & others that have said that the neuron highways within the brain have off ramps that don't connect to anywhere in addition to finding area's of the brain that have been retarded in growth, i.e. they're smaller than normal. I believe that it's a combination of events that causes BPD. It's a combination of the physical abnormalities & neuron highway off ramps that aren't connected, a traumatic event  or events early in their life, abandonment by a parent or loved one early in their life, hormones or lack there of and the inability to process all of it in a "normal" fashion. How could one not feel empathy / sympathy for a person who is so severely broken in so many ways. I actually started to feel more of it after my EMDR refresher training for the record.

In a good majority of what I read in the forums most of the stories revolve around a r/s with a BPD that ends after several months or a handful of years. In most of the cases, BPD behavior starts to present itself in the r/s within days or weeks.  I can't speak to the 80% of BPD's will dropout of the diagnostic range after 10 yrs of therapy as everyone is not the same as the other. If someone arrives on these boards after a BPD r/s that lasted only months or 2-5 yrs I would say that 10 years might seem like 3 life times to them.

There is a sliding scale for people who present with varying levels of DSM criteria. Some might present all 9 DSM criteria but on a scale of 1-10 might have 5-7 on the intensity level. Yet another one might present with 6 DSM identifying conditions but they might have the intensity level of 7-9 or 8-10. And as with any birth defect they present on other sliding scales for all the symptoms. Example, everyone born with cerebral palsy is not at the maximum level of diagnostics but present with different levels of the condition. The same is said for those with BPD who's neuro-highways off ramps & other brain abnormalities. Maybe one has 70% of the off ramps connected but another might have 90% or even 30% connected. It is a sliding scale which means different levels of management of the Cluster B Mental Illness with different methodologies of treatment. If someone has lets say 30% of the off ramps connected with 9 of the DSM criteria at 80-90% of intensity are they likely to be able to manage their Mental Illness. Most would say no. But if they have 75% of the off ramps connected with 6 DMS criteria at a intensity level of 45-55% then it might be possible to "Manage" the mental illness. TO Snow MOnkey's point here, BPD is NOT curable but in SOME cases can achieve some level of "Management" of the mental illness which in some cases SOME people would say it's a "cure".

I certainly don't believe this is creating a false narrative on reality when one is faced with such a horrific Mental Illness. I would not disagree in that some cases some NON's do whatever it takes to get to the other side of recovery. As with varying levels of BPD, there are different levels of being a Codependent & possibly other comorbidity within the NON so as I said in some cases, some get to there other side quicker than others for countless reasons. I don't judge anyone for trying to get to a better place for themselves ... .I might not agree with the method but I can certainly agree with the result.

J

 C<||| JQ

I was responding to the above. I don't want to hijack this thread by responding to your comment, but if you want to start a thread on on the questions board, PM me and I join in.

 C<||| snowmonkey

I think you know that no amount of logic is going to fix this - you say that above. Strength will. That is what your therapist was getting at when he spoke of differentiation in March.

Let's be honest, no matter how much doom and gloom you spell out here, you're not buying it and if she reaches out, you're going to go back in. Right now, you still think, deep down, it can fix and that is what is driving your anxiety - the uncertainty and the hope and the powerlessness.

32 days is painfully long, but not terminally long. It's sorta like running after a bus but not yet being at the point to accepting that the bus is pulling away and you can't catch it.

What we need during this "nowhere zone" is inner strength. This is the differentiation that your therapists was talking about. Realizing that you are a whole human being without her. That you have no control right now but are man enough to live in the uncertainty and that you are man enough to work through whatever card is finally dealt. Man enough.

This stage of a breakup is hard and it hurts. This is the bargaining / depression transition stage.

I hope this road map helps to pull this together.

As Sarah McLaughlin says, hold on to yourself, this one's gonna hurt like hell.

Skip

Thank you again JQ and skip, I appreciate all your inputs regardless of differing opinions.

 C<||| skip, I do completely agree, much of my anxiety is caused by being in the nowhere land, half between craving her and despising her. To be perfectly honest, I do not know what I would do if she called my tomorrow. Part of me wants her back, part of me wants her to call so I can reject her and part of me wants her to call so I can take her back but only to hurt her as much as she hurt me.

Of course, the overwhelming possibility is that if she did call me and I did take her back is that I am just going to be hurt and betrayed again. Of this fact, the vast majority on this board would agree. When my heart catches up with my mind and I radically accept that she will never get better, then I am free.

On the topic of the curability of BPD, I am not aware of any cases that a highly disordered person has been cured. Sure, skirting around the edges of those on the cusp of formally being diagnosed we will see that sometimes people might drop out of this classification. But I am not talking about partial remission for any short length of time or management of symptoms when I say cured.

I know that you have read a lot more than I on this topic, so perhaps you have come across some case studies. Are there any that demonstrate long term efficacy of a particular treatment? moreover (and to my OP) how would such a person deal with the fallout from being cured and the insight that their previous behaviours were abhorrent?

Directly to your question... .


Relationship Quality and Stability in Couples When One Partner Suffers From Borderline Personality Disorder
Sébastien Bouchard, Stéphane Sabourin, Yvan Lussier and Evens Villeneuve

The main goal of the present study was to examine and compare the psychosocial functioning of 35 couples where the woman was diagnosed with borderline personality disorder (BPD) to that of a nonclinical control sample of 35 couples.

The BPD status of women from the clinical group and the prevalence of personality disorder in their partner were ascertained through the SCID-II. Participants completed self-report measures of couple functioning.

A majority of couples in which the woman suffered from BPD (68.7%) evidenced frequent episodes of breakups and reconciliations and, over an 18-month period, nearly 30% of these couples dissolved their relationship.

Nearly half of the men involved in a romantic relationship with a woman suffering from BPD met criteria for one personality disorder or more.

When compared with non-borderline couples, borderline couples showed lower marital satisfaction, higher attachment insecurity, more demand/withdraw communication problems, and higher levels of violence.

I dont wish to take away hope from people as I do feel that some sufferers of BPD can improve with therapy but as jq said I dont at this moment in time think it is curable. For me the definition of cured is that all the symptoms have gone and you dont need to do anything. I do not think it is the case with BPD. Yes they may not reach the clinical criteria but they still have to work on it. They have to be more mindful of their behaviour than a so called non. I liken it to someone losing a leg. They may get a prosphetic leg but their not cured. Everyday they have to put the effort in. They may function like everyone around them but its a struggle.

Snowmonkey at this moment in time you are struggling to cope. You want answers. I can appreciate that. I like so many here have been through it. Its little comfort but it does get better. It takes time and everyday can be a struggle. One day you will wake up and she wont be the first thing you think about. After that she will be less and less in your thoughts until eventually her importance to you will have dwindled.

Hi all,

I've been really trying hard to detach since my BPDexgf discarded me 41 days ago. We've been NC (by both parties during that time).

Today I received a call from a number I didn't know, it was her friend asking to be able to pick my ex's stuff up from my house.

I started crying on the phone and told her some of the things my ex had done to me and that I still loved her. I feel traumatised all over again and feel that I have taken many steps backwards.

I wasn't doing well before, just putting one foot in front of another but now I feel totally triggered again and that a huge panic attack is just around the corner.

I don't know what to do. How can I get back the marginal progress I have made in the past 6 weeks?

I'm not an expert, but this is exactly how I wound up blocking my ex's phone number the other day and changing the locks on the door.  Hopefully once the stuff is dealt with you can protect yourself some how.  I know it's really sad and difficult, but ultimately it's your life :)  I cried a lot the next few days... .sending big hugs!

Thank you Jasmine, big hugs received and returned.

I wish I could cry, this is only the second time since the final discard. The other was in front of a nurse while I was sitting at the hospital as I described how she had assaulted me. I was begging for a prescription for Xanax as my ex had taken all of mine.

It might help to post every day... .let your true feelings out. Your feelings are hurt, but don't be afraid of them.

Picking up the stuff really doesn't mean anything, one way or the other. We often seen it as a sign of finality, but its just picking stuff up.

What did she leave behind?

My true feelings?

I simultaneously want to hold her in my arms forever but also hope that she would hurry up and kill herself so that I no longer need to feel anything towards her.

I have in equal amounts love and hatred.

My brain tells me I am best to be rid of her, my emotions scream out for me to be with her. I had gone almost 6 weeks without reaching out to her, in the hope that as time passed I would forget. But now I feel that I have to start over.

She left many, many things at my house; boxes of things from when we lived here together.

This abstract by Skip led me to read the whole article which was super interesting. Here's the discussion section (I've bolded parts that struck me as interesting):

Discussion

This preliminary exploration provides one of the first empirically based glimpses on relationship processes and outcomes in couples with a BPD partner. Up to now, research efforts have lagged behind the rich clinical descriptions of the marital context of BPD. Three key findings emerge from this study.

First, our results showed that BPD was associated with a pattern of episodic relationship instability. Almost 70% of the couples with a BPD partner reported, once every 6-month period, incidents of union termination followed by reunion. These severe commitment problems are consistent with clinical hypotheses of disruptive couple formation processes in BPD (Fruzetti & Fruzetti, 2003; Kernberg, 1995).

The second major finding of the present study was that nearly half of the men romantically involved with a woman suffering from BPD were diagnosed with a personality disorder. The expected prevalence of personality disorders in the general population goes from 9% to 14% (Charitat & Schmitt, 2002). Thus, in most likelihood, the partner-choice process in BPD is not random. Whether assortative mating in women with BPD is guided by genetic factors, social homogamy, or psychodynamic processes, or by a combination of these causes, remains to be determined. Another important finding was that half of the men met criteria A for antisocial personality disorder (conduct disorder before age 15). This finding could, if replicated, help explain high levels of revictimization and intimate violence in couples where the woman suffers from BPD.

Third, couples in which the woman suffers from BPD differed from control couples on a diversity of psychosocial variables: attachment representations, intimate violence, self-reported communication patterns, psychological distress, and relationship satisfaction. More specifically, our first hypothesis concerning attachment insecurity was mostly confirmed. As compared with control couples, both members of couples where the woman has BPD evidenced higher rates of insecure attachment. These results replicated those of Meyer and Pilkonis (2005), who found that BPD is more strongly associated with rejection anxiety than with avoidance of intimacy.

In the present sample, women suffering from BPD were also generally paired with men reporting both high levels of rejection anxiety and intimacy avoidance, as compared with control couples. Nearly 70% of these men adopted insecure attachment representations. The nonrandom pairing of individuals with insecure attachments suggests the presence of massive affect regulation difficulties characterized by a chaotic mixture of rapidly evolving hyperactivation and deactivation strategies. Pervasive preoccupation with perceived abandonment, fears of dependency, bursts of rage, devaluation, and behavioral avoidance probably alternate so that these couples get locked into vicious interpersonal cycles leading to low relationship quality and persistance. These hypotheses will need to be tested in future studies.

The hypothesis concerning the high prevalence of intimate violence in couples with a BPD partner was partly confirmed. There is a high rate of psychological violence but a consistent rate of physical violence (minor assaults) in couples where the woman has been diagnosed with BPD. These results replicate and extend those of other studies showing an association between intimate violence and borderline personality traits in men (Dutton & Starzomski, 1993; Holtzworth-Munroe & Meehan, 2002). Few studies have addressed the problem of intimate violence in women with personality disorders. The distribution of violence was highly heterogeneous in our sample. Seventy-three percent of our sample of women with BPD reported not being submitted to physical violence in the last year, but still a minority of couples exhibited high levels of mutual violence. Future studies will be needed to explain this heterogeneity.

The hypothesis that relationship satisfaction would be lower in couples with a BPD partner was confirmed. We also observed that these couples evidenced less mutual communication and more general avoidance of communication than control couples. Couples where the woman suffers from BPD also had a tendency to report more frequently a pattern of communication characterized by woman withdraw/man demand. This result is opposite to what is generally observed in distressed couples (Christensen & Shenk, 1991). However, even if couple dissatisfaction and communication problems were significantly higher in couples with a partner suffering from BPD, a large proportion of these couples, 51% for women and 60% for men, could be classified as satisfied with their union. This finding is somewhat surprising in light of some highly dysfunctional clinical descriptions of borderline couples (Lachkar, 1992) and considering that in the present sample, many other psychosocial factors traditionally associated with poor relationship functioning were observed: high rates of attachment problems, intimate violence, and psychological distress.

These findings of a higher than expected rate of relationship satisfaction and, for some couples, of long relationship duration, regardless of their highly unstable and conflictual functioning, raise questions. Past studies have revealed that, as compared with securely attached couples, couples where both partners are insecurely attached (which is the case for 68.6% of our BPD sample) can generally stay longer in an unsatisfying relationship (see Davila & Bradbury, 2001). It could well be that personality disorders and attachment insecurity in both partners have a more complex relation with union duration and satisfaction than what clinicians normally expect. An autonomous, sensitive partner expecting emotional support when needed, feeling strong enough to separate if too uncomfortable in a relationship, and not sharing the fundamental mistrust of others is not necessarily the ideal “understanding” partner in the mind of a patient with BPD.

Replication studies in other treatment settings with a larger sample of couples are necessary. Nevertheless, the direct assessment of personality disorders in both partners, using a well-studied standardized diagnostic interview, represents a strength of our study. Many studies focused on self-reported borderline personality traits. To the best of our knowledge, this is the first study based on a sample of couples where the women have the full syndrome of BPD, reliably diagnosed by two independent raters. The present findings underline the importance of integrating personality disorder research with couple studies. Finally, the complex relation between men’s personality characteristics and the clinical symptomatology observed in women diagnosed with BPD should be scrutinized in longitudinal studies to test multiple models of influence. Whereas these preliminary findings are important, the small size of this sample composed of women with BPD recruited in a treatment setting limits their generalizability.

So it is reasonable, even if the breakup were only to be for a few weeks, that she would want her stuff. It's also reasonable that she is sending a neutral friend to pick them up. If you still have feelings for her, even just basic ones, it makes sense to let her have her stuff. Try not to be injured or re-injured by this - its not a major event - its her personal affects.


And you want her to be incurable (as you say above)... .

It's takes a lot of strength to realize that you have these feelings... .  I think what would help is if you could get in touch with the "why" and what would resolve them. You can't hold her forever and have her kill herself.

It almost sounds, and I mean no judgement in this, like yo want her to "want you" so that you can reject her on your own terms. You won't be the first person to travel to this place. It's called an ego wound.

What do you think - any of this resonate?

You sound similar to me, have you looked at co-dependency for yourself? Worth a look. Maybe not right now but when you feel a bit better.

Can I make a suggestion? Put the boxes outside your front door just before they come to collect them (if it's safe/dry) if not too many. This will speed up the process and also you may not need to talk to the collecting people. This helped me anyway. Or in hall ready if not.

Thank you for your thoughts everyone,

 C<||| skip, I don't really care about her belongings going one way or the other to be honest. What bothered me was that I was triggered by speaking to her friend and that I broke down on the phone. I was trying really hard to detach and the thoughts of picking up the phone to call her had largely subsided but now I am having thoughts of re-engaging. However, I believe that she is undoubtedly involved with at least one other man by now and I use this to prevent myself from contacting her. I had largely been able to put such hurtful thoughts aside through very strict NC (I don't even log onto FB) let alone attempt to find out anything about her. I also refuse to even speak about her with all but a few people.

I think you are correct in your assertion that I would like to reject her on my own terms but part of me still wants to be with her. The truth is, I wish I could erase all the terrible things she has done and just be with the beautiful part of her. Of course, this is completely impossible. What I am finding the hardest to deal with is the mixed emotions I have towards her. It is the exact opposite of splitting; I love and hate her simultaneously. But truthfully, none of this matters because she has decided that we are not to be together, she has control just like she did throughout our relationship. That is also a painful reality.

 C<||| woods77. Oh, I have no doubt whatsoever that I have many codependent traits. I find happiness in being intimately involved with a beautiful and intelligent woman. We talk on this board about going to do the things that make you happy and that you used to do before you met your pwBPD, but what made me happy before? Long talks through the night, sharing romantic meals with my gf, working towards a future with my gf, going to the movies with my gf, going on holidays with my gf etc... I am 43 and have not had more than a month or two of being single since I was 15. So, for the last 28 years I have derived much of my happiness from activities with the person I love.

Hi snowmonkey

Is it you want to reject her on your own terms or is it that her rejecting you makes you feel insignificant?

Ivknow I still want my ex to want me in some way. This confused me for a long time. Then i realised it was because if she still wanted me then i was worth something. I wasnt an object that she used for her own ends. It would mean there where things about me that made me worth missing.

Hmmm... .

It is a good question but I'm not sure that my reason fits into either of those categories nicely. Why do I feel like I would like to reject her?

1) because I would feel like I was taking back some of the power from an extremely power imbalanced relationship
2) because it would make me feel that the situation was more just. I think most of us here feel we've been totally used and taken for a ride.
3) because I want to cause her pain for all the pain she put me through
4) but also some of the ego stuff too

What you said makes sense regarding your ex. I did so much for my ex and I know that I was more than worthy of being her partner. I would feel better about myself if she realised that she screwed up a relationship with a man that who truly loved and cared for her and could have provided everything she needed. Of course, no man can provide everything that she needs, as she has proven throughout her life that time and again she will always need validation from more and yet more men.

It also strikes me that I need to feel that everything I did to care for her and all the pain I went through to be with her wasn't in vain and wasted effort. That can longer be provided by her being a beautiful partner for the rest of our lives, but in some way I might get compensation if I knew that she knew that I gave her all anyone could and that ultimately our demise was caused by her own actions.

I can completely empathise with your feelings. Where things may differ for us is I dumped my ex and its been over two years. The wanting her to hurt has gone. My dented ego is not as battered as it was and ive seen her have a number of relationships that have all ended.

Ive had longer to struggle with the question of whether I was a good boyfriend and have found peace in my answers.

I also have a uBPD ex wife so going through it twice I have been able to see recurring patterns which others may not after one ride on the merry go round.

It does get better. You can find peace with yourself and can come out the other side a little bit wiser.

hi snowmonkey,

nice self awareness. i commend you for digging deep and tackling this stuff - i know its painful.

i read regret in your list/thoughts. do you think perhaps some of your anger and sense of injustice is at yourself?

Thanks for the question once removed.

Do I have anger towards myself?

Truly, I feel that I have little anger towards myself. Certainly in hindsight I can see that I could have done things differently at times and certainly I see I gave too much and expected too little in return. But I am not angry at myself for that.

I see little point in self-recrimination when my ego is already so low and besides, I almost always put 100% into this relationship because I believe love and relationships are worth fighting for. I don't see me ever changing that behaviour in the future, although I may certainly change the type of person I have a relationship with... .Not that I can see me being with anyone else for a LONG time.

The regret I have is that I allowed myself to believe that this was the one. Part of me still feels she was my soul mate... .And I have been in a LOT of relationships. But I can't be angry at myself for that either, I have never gone into a relationship with thoughts that this is ok for now but it will come to an end soon.

I am finally coming to the realisation that there was nothing I could have done to make this work... .I couldn't fix her. So it seems pointless in being angry with myself.

Knowing what I know now, I would behave differently if I met her afresh tomorrow. But my point is, that I didn't know these things when I first met her. You learn a lot at BPD school that life has never taught you before!

Snow, I don't want to push too hard - but I want to push some.

1. You knew this in March. You told us.

2. You have explained that if she kills herself you will feel redeemed and in less pain, and surely the inverse replies, if she meets a great guy and has a great relationship, you will be devastated.

This is codependency. Your feelings are self worth are based on her failing.

When dogs do this, its called chasing the tail.

any links to source much appreciated

thanks EG

Sure earl grey! Just msg me and I'll send you the pdf.

I am happy to be pushed skip.

I agree that I am codependent. However, I am taking as many steps as I can to reverse that.

But firstly, I would say that I don't think it is my self worth that is mainly linked to her, rather it was my feelings of happiness and being contented. Not necessary my feelings at that present moment but I thought I was working towards a future that would be happy and thus I was content. I believe I am intelligent, people seem to enjoy my company, I am attractive, good at sport, well travelled, speak another language, good job etc. All this is to say that I am not down on myself. My feelings (and the feelings I would be filled with if she had a great life) are more about the total injustice I feel.

I will tell you a brief story to illustrate this. About 12 years ago I left my wife who was kind, intelligent and very attractive. I ran off with a girl who was 13 years younger than myself. Of course, that failed after a few years. But my wife, she was in a new relationship with a professor from university after a couple of months. They are happily married, two beautiful children and travel the world. My heart is full of gladness and happiness for her. I got what I deserved, a failed love affair, she got what she deserved, true and long lasting love. I feel so much remorse for my actions when I left her but I have not a hint of jealousy or anger towards her.

Back to my exBPDgf. The devastation I would feel at the scenario you offer would be around the complete injustice of the situation. I have a very strong sense of fairness.

To remedy my codependency with my exBPDgf I have implemented a number of things:

1) I have listed all the reasons why she will never be able to give me the life that I want. Eg. She would never have a child with me, she will be unwell for many, many years, she will always seek attention from other men, she will never contribute in a meaningful way financially etc...
2) I have gone complete NC. I allow myself to know nothing about her whatsoever.
3) I am on a journey of further self improvement. Being on here helps me emotionally, catching up with old friends, learning another language, working out, eating right, renovating my house, learning to ride my motorbike etc... .

Would be very interested in hearing anyone's thoughts on what I have written above.

"About 12 years ago I left my wife who was kind, intelligent and very attractive. I ran off with a girl who was 13 years younger than myself."

Ok, I'll ask the the obvious question here... .what made you do that?  I'm not judging at all, just a thought you may like to ponder as it seems you imply that you didn't make a good judgment there... .

And obviously... .we are all here because we didn't make great decisions or notice things we should have, so please don't beat yourself up because of this question as it's not meant in that context, but rather... .why... .why have we all made some not so good decisions to do what we have?  

Why did I stay with my exBPD for 3 years after I knew the diagnosis?  Why do any of us put up with the emotional, mental, and sometimes physical abuse?  :)on't we know we deserve better?

Why do we end up making decisions that are not in OUR own best interest?  

For me, that path led inward down a rabbit hole of my own past.  BPD relationships is what forced me to seek professional help and get some guidance to the answers I needed.  And of course sharing and reading here helped tremendously.

I feel your pain snowmonkey, I can close my eyes and feel it, smell it, touch it, because like many here I've been there.  It sucks, and the answers to your pain lie within yourself.  

My biggest hurdle was learning that I am in control of how I feel... .meaning nobody can "make" me feel anything.  I am in control of how I allow myself to feel/react to someone else's actions. No person or thing holds the ability to make me to feel bad or good, unless I choose to allow it.   I'm sure some more senior folks here can add some links or point you in a direction to read about such.

I hope you take this post in the context it's meant, which is non-judgmental at all, just something that you may take and help you turn the path you are on towards YOU.

And there is nothing FAIR about a pwBPD's life... .so if you are looking for fairness, let me know when pink elephants begin to fly.  I thought I needed mine to be incurable too... .but I realized I just needed to cure myself. 

Thanks for the comments drained. And do not worry, I am far harsher on myself for my decision to leave my wife than anyone.

I left her because at that point in my life I felt I had been corralled into marriage, I felt it was all for her and the life she wanted. I wanted to travel, to finish my Ph.D. To just enjoy life for some time without going to the next step of bringing children into the world. Along came a gorgeous foreign girl and I fell in love with her. I stilled loved my wife dearly, but I was no longer in love with her. Now that I am more mature I see what a huge mistake I made but at that time it felt right for me.

I am sorry that you too have felt this pain, I feel such empathy for everyone on this board. I feel empathy too for some with BPD... .But not my ex who has refused to accept the diagnosis and hence allowed herself to hurt others.

nice thread, I get a lot of it, and snowmonkey I echo a great deal of what you have written... .I too found immense happiness in the early days of my r/s (I could not tell you exactly why though... .just felt good!)

I also relate to issues with codependence. I feel though that this (co-d) is quite easy to recognise and relatively easy to apply new rules.

The thing I find the most difficult with all this BPD r/s gone wrong business is the bits we have more difficulty even seeing, or understanding and adjusting. Just ask a pwBPD if anything is wrong?

Earlier in the thread there was a quote from a scholarly article about BPD couples, and cherry picking a few bits I found that nons have a higher than average chance of a PD and both will have (negative/unhealthy) attachment issues.

Codependency is in its simplest form: stop saying yes and start saying no... .I can understand that, applying it takes a little practise. But undestanding one's own attachment policy that is buried deep down somewhere is another matter. I have no idea what to look for or where I might find it, but it is one of our most important faculties and IMO the reason we end up with a really unsatisfactory r/s.

I too feel cheated and unfairly treated by 'life'. When I put all I can, emotionally and financially into a r/s and all I get is abuse. It hurts. I end it. Can I even do any better the next time. I am filled with doubt. Why? Because I am certain of one thing, and that is that my attachment model buried deep in my old brain, or whatever you might like to call it, functions in a certain way.

It is knee-jerk stuff, non rational, no explanations required, it just happens, and I don't think there are any user serviceable parts inside. You've got what you've got and that I think is very hard to alter.

That is why we grapple clumsily with detaching because the attaching process was not a conscious, rational one. It was a powerful emotional one, and our rational logical thoughts about detaching are not able to dismantle the strong emotionally significant attachment bonds that we have created unwittingly with another hurt individual.

Just my two pence.

Let me give you a possible alternative list... .

1) I have listed all the reasons why she will never be able to give me the life that I want. Eg. She would never have a child with me, she will be unwell for many, many years, she will always seek attention from other men, she will never contribute in a meaningful way financially etc...

~ Just as I left my good wife and was selfish, my ex-gf left the good me and was also selfish. We are all OK and we are all flawed.

~ Relationships aren't about the breakups, they are about course of the relationship and neither of mine were consistently stable or strong. I have a significant part in that - I choose them and I'm there participating every day. My partner had a very significant part in it too.

~ While no relationship failure is about one person, the break up typically is. Being abandoned and rejected by a long term partner, under any circumstances, is a devastating life event.

~ The breakup of any serious relationship is a life altering event and biologically and emotionally traumatic. Even more so if the breakup was cruel. Even more so if we have attachment issues. Just like a broken bone, we will suffer, we will heal in time, but most importantly, with proper care, we can be stronger. Conversely, with poor care, we will be prone to break again).

2) I have gone complete NC. I allow myself to know nothing about her whatsoever.

~ I accept that the relationship is broken up and I am committed to not trying to resuscitate it.

~ While I haven't fully accepted that there still isn't some hope of recovery and that I am in limbo, I am not going to try and fool myself into thinking I have control right now. I don't. I'm strong. I can live with that.

3) I am on a journey of further self improvement. grieving a loss.  Being on here helps me emotionally, catching up with old friends, learning another language, working out, eating right, renovating my house, learning to ride my motorbike etc... .

~ When I am feeling a bit stronger, I will embark on a journey of self-awareness. What should I have done if I could live life over - knowing that - what am I going to do going forward.

~ I am going to learn more about human psychology and what makes a good relationship.

~ I am committed to be healthier and making healthier choices going forward than those I made in my last relationships.  The first of those healthy choices is choosing a healthy healing pathway.

Your subject title is: I need BPD to be incurable.

Is that a form of selfdefense, like if there was a small chance that she could be cured, that you want very much to continue / restart the relationship?
In the process going over all healthy boundaries?

And if you would be sure that she is incurable, that you can find closure and accept the relationship is over?

Hi one key,

The original title was: IMO BPD is incurable. And I think that for many sufferers, that will prove to be the case.

Do I need it to be incurable? Hmmm... .I think need is too strong a word. If I'm honest though, at this point in time, I would like to think that my ex will never be cured. My original point was, that a cure would involve insight into her thoughts and behaviours. Should that ever come to pass, she must surely feel such shame at her past actions that she would inevitably be as mentally ill as she is now.

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