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Relationship Partner with BPD (Straight and LGBT+) => Romantic Relationship | Bettering a Relationship or Reversing a Breakup => Topic started by: obliv326 on October 21, 2016, 06:09:43 PM



Title: Oh boy...
Post by: obliv326 on October 21, 2016, 06:09:43 PM
So... .

Long story short... .I had a several month long LDR that blew up when my ex decided I was too scary to see in person when she was in town, I suppose. It dragged on, but a few weeks later she decided she "needed space". I gave her 6 months.

She eventually reached out to say I wasn't forgotten. We talked for a bit.

Last week we were talking and she mentioned that she was strapped financially and having anxiety attacks. It is difficult to know she is having trouble and not help, so on wednesday, i reached out and offered to meet her on thursday to give her some money, fill up her gas tank, and buy her dinner. Her birthday is next week, so it would be an early birthday present.

She was kind of rude when I asked about where she'd like to go. An hour after we were supposed to meet, she said that a friend was dealing with a break up, and asked if we could do it the next day. I had plans, and she had agreed to them, so I said as much, and that we should do this today.

She accused me of trying to "forve her into a corner". Apparently, because I had told her I would be in her area thursday and Friday, she assumed the plans were flexible (I said I would be up there, but I did say a specific time and date. She agreed to it. There was no mention of changing.) She was not "obligated" and hadn't "signed anything" and somehow, waiting until an hour after we were supposed to meet to ask if we could do t tomorrow was somehow respecting my time.

I told her we needed to talk on the phone about things. This has been an issue. She took forever to give me her number, and does this kind of BS when we are supposed to meet. It makes me feel like I am some kind of stalker or weirdo that can't be trusted.

Last night, I told her as much. I used DEAR MAN to tell her how I felt. If she wanted to have me around, and she keeps pulling me back into her life, but only talks to me via text, that was going to have to change. No more text only. I get treated like everyone else in her life, or I'm not putting anymore effort into it.

This is really hurtful. I was going out of my way to help her, and I get treated like some kind of guy who is hiding in the bushes outside her house? She is more than happy to talk to guys who have a very clear agenda to get into her pants and act like they are some kind of hero. I am maybe the only person who has ever wanted to know her for her, and I am treated like this? I am not even worth seeing if there is money involved?

I am deeply hurt and angry. As far as I'm concerned, she deserves to hurt over this, not me.


Title: Re: Oh boy...
Post by: Turkish on October 21, 2016, 11:53:36 PM
She was rude, it sounds like she's using you; even worse,  on her terms.  You sound sound angry,  too, especially after trying the tools.  Do you feel differently given a day or so to process this? 


Title: Re: Oh boy...
Post by: obliv326 on October 22, 2016, 03:06:43 AM
I was pretty devastated yesterday. Most of today was being hurt and angry. Tonight I got kind of down, but in the last few hours I feel better after reading some things here.

I am kind of wondering if I handled it correctly? I didn't engage with her when she was being rude, even though when she acted like I was being demanding about how she spends her time I felt about as horrible and worthless as I ever have.

When I got home I sent her the message I described above. I'm pretty sure she'll feel bad and write me again soon. She has had some stress in her life, although that doesn't excuse her rudeness.

I also wonder if there was a way to tell her she'd been rude in a way that she would hear, and not just see as an attack from me and use it to split me black?

Regardless, I told her no more time and energy until she is willing to treat me with respect, and let me actually be a part of her life. She might think she's already doing that, despite her actions the other day. Or maybe she's not willing to do that. Regardless, I'm standing my ground here. I'm not going to be treated like that. I deserve better. My feelings matter and I told her so. Balls in her court.


Title: Re: Oh boy...
Post by: C.Stein on October 22, 2016, 06:47:27 AM
Without respect you have nothing.


Title: Re: Oh boy...
Post by: patientandclear on October 22, 2016, 09:50:39 AM
You identified two issues: that she only texts; and that she blew off your plans and took your time for granted and prioritized the other friend.

On texting: pwBPD can have real aversion to certain forms of communication with people they are close to. You can gently nudge on this, but making it an ultimatum ("talk by phone or I'm not in your life" is not recognizing this very real discomfort. This one is not about respect, I'm 95% sure. My ex got incredibly loathe to talk by phone for a long stretch in our post-r/ship dynamic. I always made clear I thought phone worked better for us for some things, and eventually he opened up on that. An ultimatum would have been counter-productive.

On her rudeness: she was rude. A well-calibrated boundaried response to that would be to say, ok, plans are off. See you next time. You don't have to go nuclear with "you're either going to make no mistakes or we're done," which is super shaming and feels like you are always on the verge of walking out the door. The natural consequences of what she did is she doesn't get to see you or get the money. Oh well.

On the money ... .Strongly urge you not to give her money. Those dynamics are rescuer dynamics, and they create a power inequality and sense of debt that at least some pwBPD can come to resent. And it puts you in the role of dad, not friend/partner. Is that what you want to be?


Title: Re: Oh boy...
Post by: obliv326 on October 22, 2016, 12:40:19 PM
Thank you for your response. I have had a lot of issues surrounding the phone thing. She seems to have no problem talking to other people on the phone, and it made me feel as if she didn't trust me. Same with avoiding spending time in person. That really hurt.

I will say that I think there is a difference between what I did and going nuclear.

First, an ultimatum last spring caused a huge problem, so I tried to not make this a "do this or we're done" situation. My position is that she is not treating me in a way I feel is respectful. Keeping a layer of distance between us by only communicating via text is hurtful to me. I allowed it to continue because I wanted to make sure she was comfortable with our situation. But it has always been hurtful to me, so I am asking to be treated like everyone else in her life. Rather than say "do it my way or we're done" I tried to make it more of an "until you do this, I won't invest anymore time or energy", which I think is a distinction that bears pointing out. I made the point several times that I like her company and want to keep  getting to know her, but that this behavior hurts. It has caused many problems in the past, so it's not like I am throwing something at her out of the blue. One of the issues I had before was establishing boundaries, and this felt like the best way to get that across.

At any rate, that's what I've done now. I hope it didn't come off as an ultimatum, but more of a choice to not reward a behavior that I can't handle anymore.  I now worry that it came off that way again, which I was trying to avoid.


Title: Re: Oh boy...
Post by: obliv326 on October 22, 2016, 12:49:35 PM
I've now started wondering if I should clarify... .Send a text message that says "I want to clarify that I'm not giving you an ultimatum. It's more that I don't feel like you're ready to have me around, so I'm giving you space until you are"... .Something like that? I know ultimatums are bad and I don't want to do that again.


Title: Re: Oh boy...
Post by: obliv326 on October 22, 2016, 04:34:54 PM
I thought I would post my response t her here and get an opinion. As I said, I used DEARMAN bc there is something I want from the interaction and I feel like I needed to assert myself because she was rude and I felt the need to stand my ground and make it clear that I did not deserve that treatment and wouldn't allow it. I don't think I did it perfectly but it was my first time doing it and I was very upset at the time. I think I was able to keep that at bay at least. Anyway, here's what I wrote:

So here's how it is. I understand that you've been stressed. Maybe you had some things happen today. But none of that was my fault. I was trying to do something nice for you. If you need to break plans, that is one thing. But to suggest that I was somehow out of line for expecting you to keep plans we had made is not something I am going to validate for you.

This made me feel very bad about myself. The issue of being reticent to meet with me or talk on the phone has caused problems before. When you act as if you have some reason to avoid me, it makes me feel like you see me as either someone who scares you, or as someone you find repulsive. I am neither and don't deserve to feel this way.

I deserve to be treated the same as anyone else you know. I will not be relegated to communication only via text. I will need to feel like I am welcome in your life, which I do not right now. I want to be able to talk on the phone and hang out when we get a chance.

I have said that I wanted to get to know you... .All of you. You can't really do that via text. Many issues we've had have been due to communication, or lack thereof, and text basically encourages bad communication.

I love the fact that we've been talking again. Is been a lot of fun. I love your company and you are really the first person I want to share a lot of things with. I want to keep doing that and see where things go. I've told you many times that you are very special to me. I really want to keep getting to know you, and I'm pretty amazing as well.

But I can't give you my time and energy until you can treat me fairly. I am not asking for anything unreasonable, and I have provided a lot of support for you. I did all of it to try and earn your trust and I didn't ask for anything in return. Being able to spend time with you and feel like I'm welcome to contact you is something I've had with everyone who has ever meant a lot to me, and it's how you get to know people. I've let you have this to make you comfortable, but it has affected me in a negative way, and I don't deserve that.

I can't imagine that I'll stop caring about you ever. But my feelings matter too, and I can't ignore that anymore.

That's it. Again, do I need to follow up that I wasn't giving an ultimatum?


Title: Re: Oh boy...
Post by: thefixermom on October 22, 2016, 08:57:19 PM
So you already sent her that response?  My opinion is that it overstates your position.  She's already been told and she knows.  People do a lot more thinking in silence then they do when they are being sent long notes and explanations.  Same with respect. It doesn't come from writing those communications.   I agree with Patientandclear's post. A nonreactive (non emotional) response of "ok, plans are off. See you next time," would be more effective. She'd probably be chasing you right now just to make sure you weren't going so far as to not be able to reel you back in.   To keep restating and clarifying makes it look like you are chasing her, which you may be doing.  It puts the balance of power in her court.  If you are feeling hurt and upset by her treatment of you, then I would recommend that you work on yourself some more.  When I was finally able to love (everyone) with detachment, I discovered that not a single word or phrase can be said which hurts my feelings.  I might feel sadness, or concern, for the hurt person lashing out at me, but the act of not taking it personally, is liberating and ads clarity and steadiness to interactions. It doesn't happen overnight but with practice, it becomes real.

I agree about the money, too.  As a fellow funder (in the past) I understand how difficult it is to let them figure out things on their own.  When we give them money, they lose the opportunity to get motivated enough to get their act together. Plus we end up telling ourselves that we are a good person for helping them and we want them to see that and reward us with affection, attention, respect, etc.  Whether we admit it or not, we are trying to buy the relationship.  We love them so much and it's a chance to show it.   They sense our hidden or even subconscious motives and are quick to give us reasons why we must be held at bay no matter what we do for them.  It could well be that the whole reason "you haven't been forgotten," as she said, is that she knew if she played you a little bit, the wallet would open at the right time. And then when you start expressing anything that can be seen as an expectation, she starts feeling resentful and lashes out because she doesn't want to be that close with you and is looking for a way to distance you till the next need arrises.  I wouldn't be surprised if her friend's issue was all made up or embellished to break the date with you.  She knows she has your heart.  And she probably does care on some level but from where I'm sitting you look a lot like an asset in the wings.

You have no reason to feel bad about yourself. You are starting to see the kind of relationship you want and deserve and hope for.  But it's a process getting there.  People are who they are and it's important to see them as the people they demonstrate themselves to be so that we can accept the reality of it.  The only person who can honestly make you feel better is yourself. I'm proud of the effort I see you putting into this.  You'll get there. Probably (hopefully) a lot quicker than I did.  I spent a lot of years banging my head against a wall and it sure hurt.  But I was the one banging it, I finally realized.


Title: Re: Oh boy...
Post by: obliv326 on October 22, 2016, 10:19:57 PM
Thank you very much for your response. I appreciate everything you had to say.

This is the response I sent her. The only one I sent her. I did my best to remove my emotion from it so hearing you say that it comes off emotionally shows I have a little more work to do, I suppose. And the reason I would want to clarify is bc someone above said it sounded like an ultimatum. I didn't want to give that impression. I really just wanted to state my opinion and let her know that the way things have been going in that area is something I don't like.

I don't want to come off as chasing her, so if further clarification gives that opinion I'll not do that.

And I can't disagree that by helping her with money I was trying to show how much I cared. I agree that she could be using that against me... .And the friend thing? Almost 100% made up. She never mentioned it at all until an hour after we were supposed to meet. I don't believe it happened at all. Her method of dealing with stress is just to avoid it. This was classic avoidance, and part of the reason it bothered me so much was bc I was really hoping it wouldn't happen and she was serious about meeting. For her to pull this at the last minute, when I had already driven there... .

Anyway, I am hearing not to do anything? Don't write? Don't clarify? Should I do anything at all?


Title: Re: Oh boy...
Post by: obliv326 on October 22, 2016, 10:22:50 PM
I guess I'm asking... .Did I do anything right? Is there anything to work with here? Or did I just do what I've done before, even though I tried to avoid shaming and JADE?


Title: Re: Oh boy...
Post by: obliv326 on October 23, 2016, 04:06:04 PM
Help? Anyone?


Title: Re: Oh boy...
Post by: obliv326 on October 23, 2016, 06:36:34 PM
The longer I go, the more I feel like I should send a message that says:

I want to be clear that I'm not giving an ultimatum. I just can't stand being someone who stresses you out.

I get the feeling that I would be over explaining again... .And at the same time I feel like I should make sure she knows it's not an ultimatum, since someone mentioned that before.

And let me say... .It is so confusing trying to figure out what to do. On the one hand, DEAR MAN seemed the thing to do, since I felt I was asking for something that was untenable to me. I have watched her act scared to meet me and push back on the most basic parts of getting to know someone in a relationship... .And then give al of that away and more to a guy she met in a sketchy club. In a matter of minutes. If that guy can get it, I feel perfectly justified asking for the same thing.

But then I come here and I'm told I'm going nuclear and that I overstated and was over reactive. And I'm not saying they were wrong. I'm just saying that you seem to get a lot of mixed messages and it's impossible to know what to do.

Now I'm worried that I've given her the impression that I've made an ultimatum, and I've made that mistake before. I want her to come back, and I feel like, if I've given her the impression that she's facing an ultimatum, she won't

At the same time, I don't want to back down because I did nothing wrong.

What the hell do I do? Did I screw up? Is there any way to pull this out of the fire?

Anyone?


Title: Re: Oh boy...
Post by: patientandclear on October 23, 2016, 08:46:47 PM
For what it's worth, as I was the one who used the term ultimatum, I no longer see it that way, after reading the message you sent her. I think rather the poster who said you would be better off being more perfunctory and just imposing natural consequences has the right read on the message you sent. So yet more explaining doesn't seem like the way to go.

She was rude. Who knows exactly why. So you should not be falling all over yourself to get her to resume. Your response though was unloading months of pent up anxiety and hurt onto this one incident. No one is going to want to spend time with someone who has so many rules about every component of the interaction. If you can be a little more iterative--if she behaves in a way you don't like, show her the consequences rather than giving her a lecture--you may have a smoother path.

I think you're barking up the wrong tree wanting her to treat you like everyone else in her life and being annoyed if she can't. BPS is a disorder pertaining to intimate connection. She may be fine talking and keeping plans with more casual acquaintances but finds it much harder with you. If you're practicing radical acceptance, this is just part of the landscape. You can't will away her attachment issues through exercise of boundaries or stomping your feet at her.

In the end you have to decide if you want to be closely connected to someone who you know reacts and processes this way. If you decide to, that decision is your responsibility.



Title: Re: Oh boy...
Post by: obliv326 on October 23, 2016, 09:07:34 PM
Thanks patientandclear. I really appreciate your response.

My question is what to do? Is there any hope for me? Did I do anything right?

I get that she may have some issues connecting or whatever. However, I'm not willing to have that kind of relationship with her. If I am doomed to be a guy whe just texts and everyone else gets to have fun with her in person, I'm not okay with that. If that means it ends then that's how it goes.

Obviously I'm learning. And as much as what I wrote comes off as angry, I did my best to try and get away from the emotion and use DEARMAN. If you're all seeing it as angry and feet stomping I must have screwed up. Is there anything I can do at this point?

Thanks for the feedback. I'm struggling pretty badly here.


Title: Re: Oh boy...
Post by: Turkish on October 23, 2016, 10:28:10 PM
Quote from: patientandclear
So yet more explaining doesn't seem like the way to go.

^^^^ this. 

Another message or further explaining yourself isn't likely to go over well,  and BPD or not,  may come off as desperate. You said what you said,  it's out there,  and waiting for the response is the best thing to do now.


Title: Re: Oh boy...
Post by: obliv326 on October 23, 2016, 10:51:49 PM
Thanks Turkish! I really appreciate the feedback.

I guess one thing I'm wondering that no one has touched yet is if I did anything right here? I mean, I stayed calm initially. I didn't react angrily or emotionally. I waited until I got home and sent the message above.

I tried to use the tools I had to get what I needed from her. While I am hearing a lot of things I can work on, and I do honestly appreciate EVERYTHING that has been said, I do wonder if I did anything that might be effective or useful? Anything that might have the kind of effect I was seeking? Or did I just do something that's going to push her away, as if I had JADEd her?


Title: Re: Oh boy...
Post by: Turkish on October 23, 2016, 11:19:13 PM
I would only say that talking about your own feelings too much might be too much for her.  Being brief is better.  It's a smaller target. 


Title: Re: Oh boy...
Post by: patientandclear on October 24, 2016, 01:02:55 AM
What you did right is not the same as what may draw her to you or appeal to her. (What you're doing now that you might want to reconsider is worrying so much about her reaction to all this.)

You asked for what you want, and didn't stuff your own wishes and feelings out of fear of her reaction. That, in broad strokes, is healthy.

I relate to your feelings. I've come to see, though, that how bad I felt about choices my ex made and behavior he engaged in was something for me to work out with me--not something I need to spell out for/with him. Some of it is down to him, some is exacerbated by harm done me by others long ago that his behavior just hooked into. But the point is, it's btwn me and me. Going forward, you might consider being true to your own self and feelings, but not necessarily processing all that with her. Decide what to DO and do it; you can explain the back story of the why of it (what you deserve, that the situation you find yourself in with her makes you feel bad) mostly to yourself.

It's not her job to take care of your feelings. It's yours. If the way she acts makes you feel bad--don't participate. Don't explain to her that her taking you for granted makes you feel like crap--people know that already.



Title: Re: Oh boy...
Post by: obliv326 on October 24, 2016, 01:54:57 AM
I appreciate what you are saying. I will say that in this instance, I was trying to use DEARMAN to deal with an issue that was untenable. Part of that is to describe the situation, and to express how it makes you feel.

It is pretty confusing, then, to be told that the very steps you are told to take with a specific tool are the things you should not be doing. Can you see why this is kind of frustrating and difficult to understand and process? I've done my best to use the tools that are presented here, but I'm always doing it wrong. It's difficult enough to try to grasp the actions of this person who means a lot to me and seems to be undertaking a method of action designed to personally damage me as much as possible, let alone to try and use the tools that are supposed to help you interact with these people and to always be doing it incorrectly.

Please don't take this as criticism of your advice. I appreciate it and can't thank you enough for it. But I hope you can see where I am coming from?


Title: Re: Oh boy...
Post by: C.Stein on October 24, 2016, 08:13:51 AM
I understand the second questioning obliv, I've done plenty of it myself.  No matter what you say or do, you will find a way to second question it.  Do you see the egg shells you are walking on? 


Title: Re: Oh boy...
Post by: obliv326 on October 24, 2016, 08:51:36 AM
Of course I do. I see it with almost everyone who writes here. It is difficult if not impossible to understand what to do. Almost all of us in this particular forum are dealing with someone who doesn't treat us the way we expect. It throws our entire spectrum off. Yet when you treat them the way someone who acts like they do should be treated, it doesn't work. At the same time, we all want these people in our lives. I know that I love this girl more than I have pretty much anyone for maybe 20 years. Yet nothing I do works. I normally would react negatively to being spoken to like she spoke to me. But if I do that, then I'm JADEing and shaming. However, if I validate, I don't have her respect. And she hands her respect to other people who don't deserve it. So yes... .I'm walking on eggshells because every single thing I do seems to somehow be the wrong move, and for some reason this girl means more to me than almost anyone I've ever known.

And I get that the question is why she means so much, but you need to realize... .I want her, and I don't know if I screwed up and she's gone. Or if I didn't and she's just letting things settle. If she cares for me. If she only wants to use me for what I provide. It's frustrating and enraging and terrifying all at once. I have no idea what to do, and in reality, she's the one behaving badly.

So yes, I see the eggshells, because she's extremely important to me, she hurts me very deeply, I want to change that. There is every reason I should be able to say "what the heck is wrong with you? You know how to behave! You've done it before! How dare you treat me like this?" but I can't. So I come looking for tools, and every single one I try to use is also somehow wrong. So yes... .I'm absolutely confused and frustrated and I have no idea what to do. I just wonder if I can fix it.


Title: Re: Oh boy...
Post by: patientandclear on October 24, 2016, 09:00:33 AM
Effective use of the communications tools takes practice, DEARMAN in particular. Withdrawal language ("I can't/won't ... ." wouldn't typically fit there. I'm no expert! And my r/ship ended. Maybe others here can give more specific coaching. I don't think the early days of re-establishing a connection would necessarily be the time to go to this level of processing. In any event, less is often more. "I appreciate it when you show you prioritized our plans; it makes me want to keep doing things together" works just as well to get across your point.

In DBT they teach that if you're making a hard ask for something, make sure the other person can give it, or that you really need it, or both. Because otherwise you paint both of you into a corner. If it's something you'd like but it's not essential, and the other person will find it hard, make it a request, not a condition. I suggest you look at her preference for text with you in this way. Again, she is working against some resistance here that is not volitional. Her aversion to real time talking is a self protective mechanism that comes from somewhere (not necessarily to do with you and not necessarily that she is aware of).



Title: Re: Oh boy...
Post by: C.Stein on October 24, 2016, 09:08:12 AM
I just wonder if I can fix it.

I know you know this, but it bears repeating.  You can't fix her (it).  She is who she is.  Your choice now is can you accept (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=89910.0;all) her for who she is?  It takes time to learn how to use the tools effectively but understand they may not work, or at least work to your satisfaction.

I get how you feel Obliv.  I have never loved anyone as deeply as I loved my ex.  I see now how I was walking on egg shells as well and it came at a very high cost to me.  When will the cost be too high for you?


Title: Re: Oh boy...
Post by: obliv326 on October 24, 2016, 09:56:34 AM
I want to thank both of you for your input. Again, it is really appreciated.

Just a little clarification regarding some things that might help clarify a little... .The aversion to real time communication and meeting in person are limits I am not willing to accept. It has caused lots of problems before, and led to the biggest, most damaging argument we had. She knows this is a big issue for me and that it hurts me a great deal. She knew that when she agreed to meet me. I went to DEARMAN because this is a deal breaker. If she is not willing to have an actual, real life relationship with me, then I'm not interested in being in her life at all. She has known this and has had a year to accept my position on it. The fact that contact has recently been reestablished, frankly, only solidifies my feeling on the matter. She asked for a lot, most recently several months of "space", essentially giving me the silent treatment because some friends of mine called her out for her inexcusable behavior. As far as I'm concerned, she has known how I feel and has had plenty of time to come to terms with it. If she couldn't handle it she could have been honest and said so, at any point in time, instead of making up some dumb excuse. I am frankly sick of having to ask about it. She agreed to meet. She knows how plans work. It's time that this stops being an issue. I was more than patient. She's had plenty of time. I don't see what giving her more time to accept the idea is going to do but keep it from happening. She is already of the opinion that it's always better to avoid things and do it later, so letting her get away with it over and over is only going to lead to more avoidance. This situation made it clear to me that if given the opportunity, no matter what the cost to me or her, she will always opt to stay in her comfort zone. That is untenable to me, and I decided that now is the time to put my foot down and say what I want. With all due respect, the timing may not have been perfect, but it will never be perfect. She is never going to get there on her own volition... .Or if she does, it will be years down the road. I'm not okay with that. If she can't have an actual relationship with me then she gets no relationship with me.

And my comment about fixing it was more about what damage I may have done in what I've said. I know I can't fix her. I can accept her for who she is, but I have feelings as well. They matter and I've sacrificed them for a long time. I figured the renewal of contact was a good time to start a new set of behaviors. This is a chance to change the way we interact since we've had several months to break those patterns.

So, again, I used DEARMAN because this is something I have to have for the relationship to continue. I hoped by broaching the topic and asking to meet with the bonus of giving her something she needed, it would be a chance to start a new set of because and expectations. When she acted like she did, I decided that was a time to establish a boundary, before it gets ingrained. So I used that technique.

If she is incapable of having a real relationship with me, I will walk. Her life will be much worse for it


Title: Re: Oh boy...
Post by: Conundrum on October 24, 2016, 11:48:52 AM
Hi Obliv,

I remember when you first started posting. I think it's commendable, the effort you've put in attempting to incorporate tools. However, you might be getting a little too hung up fretting over whether you're utilizing them perfectly. None of us, will ever be perfect in our interactions with our pwBPD, and you're entitled to cut yourself some slack too in this process.

When you want to invest in someone--there's a great aspirational presence lodged inside our beings/hearts. Can you see/feel that desire and let it comfortably rest for a bit without intruding into your perception.

The vibe I get from your posts are that you feel--you're a good guy, who can offer her much more than her casual other guys and that she's making a host of poor decisions--and would be much better off being with you.

On some levels that may be a true perception, however--said reasoning may mean little to an untreated pwBPD (and isn't she also rather young too--I think you previously mentioned that?)

Though, what if the validation she feels from being with/playing with/having drama with a number of guys trumps her interest in being with one stable guy. That type of "playing around" isn't all that unusual within many subsets of people--and age, maturity, values, and the presence of a disorder (or traits) will certainly play a factor.

What if at this point in life she is relationally incapable of valuing what you have to offer (not because of who you are) but because she has not matured into that level of development in her own life.

Clearly perceiving a relationship's limitations is a condition precedent to radically accepting the foreseeable structure that will develop. If it all went your way, how would you envision this relationship developing? Do you see her morphing into a stable angel--being all that you want her to be--or do you envision another probability?

Power dynamics are in play here. Offerings, be it money, gas, whatever--when there isn't that type of close domestic arrangement--doesn't help. It creates an artificial dependence that subtracts from the substantive connection that you're looking for. Look, it sounds as if she is able to receive validation from guys on demand. You cannot, nor should you feel that you have to compete with that. Those are her relational limitations and/or the life path that she has chosen for herself.

While a bit simplistic, the most effective element that you can demonstrate towards her (at this point) is that you want her less than she wants you. How you go about illustrating that that is up to your discretion, though it doesn't have to be disingenuous. Sometimes just modeling that you have your life together--and she's invited to share the ride is message enough. But when the object of your desire knows in her bones that you're life isn't going to be derailed, or turned upside down due to disordered mechanics--that a strong demonstration of leadership. Leave her wanting more than you're offering. I wish you well.


Title: Re: Oh boy...
Post by: patientandclear on October 24, 2016, 11:49:59 AM
It's great that you have a clear sense of your own boundaries.

I would just flag that it's unlikely that her "thinking about it" is going to make a dent in her aversion to direct contact.  Slow progress with positive reinforcement for what you want, and non-shaming boundary enforcement when it doesn't go as you need it to, is probably what would be counseled on the Improving board.


Title: Re: Oh boy...
Post by: obliv326 on October 24, 2016, 03:53:57 PM
Thank you both again for your input and feedback. It means a great deal to me.

To just answer some of the questions you posed... .The reason I have the feeling about being a good guy vs some of the guys she has been so willing to trust is because she has told me a few times, and even written about it, that guys are more than willing to use her sexually. She has wanted someone who wanted her for her. That's what I am. And the other guys are the former. She has talked about how it is damaging to her. Not only does it damage her self esteem, but it is compulsive behavior she engages in when she is triggered. After we had our big fight, she engaged in a bout of reckless behavior that began with a bunch of sexual acting out, continued to irresponsible purchases, and eventually led to her quitting her job and moving. Her current situation, where she is stressed and having anxiety attacks, is directly attributable to her poor decision making, and sexual acting out is part of that. So as someone who is concerned for her welfare... .Let's face it. I'm head over heels in love with her... .I hate seeing that happen, not just for me sake but because I love heard her say how damaging it is.

I get that she is getting woke validation from these encounters and that it might be a relatively normal course of action. I could accept that, but honestly, I would want to be included in that group. The fact that I'm not just hurts.

I can accept also that maybe what I bring to the table is not necessarily what someone in her age and with a disorder finds appealing, per se, except for the fact that I am attractive and bring a lot of that type of energy. Still, I may be seen as the stable, reliable type, and she wants a bunch of wild, no strings attached type encounters. Fine. She does keep bringing me back, though, and shares things with me that seems to indicate a certain level of trust. I do get the difference, but for me I don't want to be on the outside of that circle. I let her have her way about it because she said she took awhile to get comfortable with people, but she also knew it bothered me, as I said before. Once she started giving away the contact that I had worked so had to attain to guys she met in sleazy clubs, it started to seem pretty personal. I'm just not okay with that now. Hence my reaction.

I guess my answer to your question about whether I possibly may not be what she's looking for is just that. I'm not willing to be the stable guy on the outside anymore. Even if I could accept that it may be part of her disorder, by this point it just has too much attached to it for me to be okay with it. Not to mention I believe she used it as a way to hurt me knowing it was a sore spot. So I need that weapon removed from her hands. If she wants me around, and she certainly seems to, even if it is only bc I have her money, then this is something I need. I feel the time to draw the boundary is right. I just spent months without her. If she's going to reject me on those grounds, I'd just as soon it be now before I get too attached again.

If it all were to fall my way, I would not see her as a stable angel. Not at all. I would just hope that the fact that I know a bit more of what I'm doing, and want to be with her through thick and thin, will help me get over the rough patches.

And referring to her thinking about it and the aversion to direct contact, what you are suggesting is exactly what I did. For months I let her move at her pace and slowly open up. But as I said, she knew this was a serious issue for me and it finally came to a head last spring. I wrote about it here, but it had to do with this very issue. She came down to visit (she's from my general area) made plans to visit with everyone else but didn't make plans with me. I was in a stressful situation and snapped, just unloaded on her, and gave her an ultimatum, which is why I am so aware of NOT doing that now. It turned into my worst nightmare and just kept getting worse, culminating in 6 months of silent treatment while she went on her wild sex binges. She reached out to me in September and we started some contact, which is currently not happening since last Thursday and the "flake" incident. My point, I suppose, is that she has been given plenty of opportunity to do things at her pace. She has been very aware that it hurt me deeply and that it has caused a lot of problems, and she had 6 months where she had as much space as she wanted. There was a similar incident earlier last week where I was going to meet her to help out and initially she wanted me to meet her at a meeting. When the meeting was cancelled, suddenly she was too tired and couldn't give me a time. She knew this bothered me even earlier in the week. She knew it when she agreed to meet me. So I guess, she's had time, her own pace, and knowledge that it would cause problems as incentive to get past it. And now she knows it is a boundary for me. As we all know, this is a behavioral disorder, and can be learned. At some point, she would have to venture out of her avoidant posture if she cared about spending time with me. And honestly, I don't know what else I can give her. She doesn't seem to have given any indication that she's going to even make an effort to change the behavior, and giving her more time or space just seems to be giving her more of a chance to duck and dodge and avoid. So I really don't know what else I could have done, honestly. As I said, it's not something I'm okay with. It has to stop, for my sake. Allowing it to continue without comment seems to almost be encouraging the behavior at this point. We are reestablishing contact so the pattern isn't ingrained... .It seemed like the time to take this step. Is my logic faulty?

Of course, at this point, she hasn't responded and probably won't until she has de-stressed or needs something from me or feels guilty or misses me. I was considering sending her a message today that would allow her to avid a confrontation... .Something like "look, I know you're stressed and this isn't the kind of thing you want to deal with ever, let alone at a time like this with all of these things happening. So here's what I'll do... .You know what I'm saying I need you to do. If you will make a concerted effort to move my situation to where I'm not just a guy you text, but to have a real life relationship when you are in a more stable situation, then you can respond to the paragraph below", which will have nothing to do with the level of contact situation.

I'll then make reference to something else... .Star Wars, walking dead, something else we have in common... .And that way she avoids the discussion, which I know she's doing, and I'll feel better. Thoughts?

Yes, I know she might lie, but I'd like to do what I can to de pressurize the situation, esp since it seems I could have handled it better.

Otherwise it might be months. Or, if she thinks I'm angry, longer. I would anticipate her reaching out at some point, but I don't want another 6 months of the silent treatment. It really should be a boundary as well, frankly. I just don't know if taking that step is wise at this point.

Anyway, I'm guessing that it's probably a bad idea, and I'm open to that discussion. I don't think it seems particularly desperate, as it is mostly an attempt to give her a voice that she is loathe to use. And since I'm not begging or chasing really, but trying to open contact again. I think my chances are better when we're talking... .Although maybe not? It also seems to me to be a "take the bull by the horns" move rather than a sit back and wait thing.

Yes, I know I'm walking on eggshells. I hate it. I hadn't  had these feelings for anyone in over 15 years until I met her, and I honestly don't know if me heart will let it happen again. So yeah, every step is drought with life or death... .And actually, if it was only that important, I'd be less nervous. I feel like my eternal soul is at risk. She tore me to pieces once, and then sought me out again. I lived without her for 6 months but it was barely living. I need to see what this can be, and so yes... .Every step is terrifying.

I do, sincerely, thank you for your feedback. It does mean more than I can say and I take every word to heart. So thank you again, not just for me, but for everyone here. If it weren't for this board I don't know what I would do!


Title: Re: Oh boy...
Post by: obliv326 on October 24, 2016, 06:31:14 PM
My brain is trying to convince me that the message I mentioned above is the right way to go. I brought it up to one of my female friends and she said it sounded okay. So if you have opinions and words to keep me strong... .Anyone!... .I could really use it.

Or maybe it is a good idea? I don't know... .Lost in the wilderness here. Help!


Title: Re: Oh boy...
Post by: patientandclear on October 24, 2016, 08:43:20 PM
Are you changing your boundary as previously stated?  (If so, that's rarely a good idea.)

If you're not changing it, why are you reiterating it?  You already said what you need ... .as you point out here.

The structure of "if you'll capitulate you can have this goody" certainly gets my back up.  It feels controlling.

You already said your piece.  And if you guys have a good time together, if there is anything compelling about this, she already knows what it is.  You don't need to put another piece of bait on the hook, which is how this feels to me.

You don't like that she isn't responding favorably, or at least not yet, to your last message.  That is your own feeling of discomfort to deal with.  Another move more or less in the same direction isn't likely to improve matters.  And if the new message undercuts the last message, that is its own problem.

Seems like you might need to work on becoming comfortable with uncertainty and the possibility that she doesn't want to meet your needs.  I know that's hard.


Title: Re: Oh boy...
Post by: obliv326 on October 24, 2016, 09:29:31 PM
I wouldn't be changing it, per se. Maybe making a compromise, which is part of the whole DEARMAN thing.

Granted, I am very uncomfortable because I know that even if she wants to reach out and agrees with me 100% she'll still push it back more and more, esp if she thinks I'm angry. I suppose I am baiting the hook, but I think it is something that will appeal to her without altering the boundary.

Here's what I was thinking of writing:

So, I know that neither of us likes tension. I also know that in the best circumstances you don't like dealing with things like the current situation. When you've overwhelmed and freaking out its even worse, so I'll step up and make a proposal that I think will work for both of us.

If you can do your best to make a concerted effort to have a real life relationship with me... .Not just text but we talk on the phone and we hang out when we can... .We can table it for the time being. I do need things to move in that direction, but I know it's an overwhelming time and I'm willing to compromise on the time in order to get rid of the tension. If that's something that is okay with you, then don't worry about even responding to this part. Just write AC regarding the next paragraph... .

Because wee have stuff to talk about... .Did you see the walking dead yesterday? I want to know your reax.

Don't be oppositional with me, missy! I'd like to be able to wish you an actual happy birthday on your birthday!

---------------------

It seems to me like a chance to be mature and settle an issue which I'm pretty sure she'd like settled as well. it alleviates one source of tension for both of us and I don't think it looks desperate. I don't believe it undercuts the previous message at all. I'm standing my ground, and I'm acknowledging that she is probably not in the place to do something she finds stressful.

i suppose she could turn me down, but I think it's a compromise that works for the immediate situation.

But yes... .I am uncomfortable. I don't want another 6 months of the silent treatment just because she will avoid dealing with it if she gets a chance. It seems like sometimes when you're dealing with these situations and you know they won't do the right thing, you have to be willing to be the grown up and try to work out a compromise.

That's my thinking anyway.


Title: Re: Oh boy...
Post by: obliv326 on October 24, 2016, 09:58:44 PM
It seems like I can either take things into my own hands and offer a compromise, which, again, is part of DEARMAN, or wait until she finally decides to take what would essentially be the same steps... .But even if she wants to it might take her months. In fact, when she reached out to me a few weeks back, the first thing she said was "I've been putting this off for awhile... ." Who knows how long? And everyday was torture for me. Why go through that again if I can resolve the situation without backing down on my boundaries but giving her a way out also?

Also, is there any information here or elsewhere about the whole "closeness of communication" situation? If I could get a grasp on that it would help
Me a great deal.


Title: Re: Oh boy...
Post by: obliv326 on October 25, 2016, 04:22:13 AM
And never mind now... .She wrote me last night


Title: Re: Oh boy...
Post by: obliv326 on October 25, 2016, 10:43:00 PM
I just want to thank everyone again for their help. It was a trying few days and being able to come here and get a friendly response and a place to vent meant a lot.

I didn't end up sending the message I was considering. She wrote and apologized, and we talked briefly. I still have work to do but I hope that the fact that she reached out means something good.

I would like to know if there is somewhere here or online where I can learn more about the phenomenon where some PwBPD have issues with certain kinds of communication, or they keep certain people at a distance in some ways while bringing them close in others? This will really help me if I can understand this issue a bit better. Right now it is very hard not to take it personally, and I would like to be able to get over that.

But thank you again. It means a lot


Title: Re: Oh boy...
Post by: Turkish on October 25, 2016, 11:37:02 PM
You've been here a while.  Have you looked through the lessons on the board?  Or those on the Improving Board?  I know it's a ton of material. If you have very specific questions,  perhaps we can direct you appropriately. 


Title: Re: Oh boy...
Post by: obliv326 on October 25, 2016, 11:48:25 PM
I have read a lot of that material but I haven't seen any mention of that issue in particular. I can't remember if it was yiu, but someone had said that their ex had issues communicating in certain methods as well, and I was wondering if there was anything that might shed some light on that.

To be specific and just lay it out there, what I want to know is why it took months for her to give me her number, why after I'd known her for several months she lied to me about her last name? Why would she never meet with me unless someone else was there... .And the week we broke up over that very issue, she goes to a sleazy club, meets a guy, and in minutes has given him what it took me months to earn reluctantly? She slept with the guy the next day. Bragged about him on social media, when she never even let slip the hint that she knew me? And FYI, I'm not someone who you'd deny knowing. If anything, most people would acknowledge I'm more attractive than her. I can't see how that isn't personal, and I'm hoping someone can show me why this might be the case?

Thabks again. Appreciate all your help


Title: Re: Oh boy...
Post by: Turkish on October 26, 2016, 12:22:41 AM
We can go down deep rabbit holes trying to arm chair psychoanalize people in our lives.  A lot of conclusions can turn out to be wrong.  A lot of members here have done it,  including myself.  Learning more about BPD and what possibly drives her emotions can help.  While desperately seeking intimacy, a pwBPD can also be driven off by the prospect. It could be that she liked you a lot.  A casual hook up,  or the prospect thereof,  isn't really intimacy.  I wouldn't even try to elicit an explanation from her.  Even if she knows why,  she isn't likely to be open about it. 

It behooves you to digest the communication tools in lesson 3 on the Improving Board. We talk a lot about validating a pwBPD, but perhaps a better start would be to learn how not to be invalidating (see here  (https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating;all) for more). It would go a long way towards her feeling that it's safe to talk to you.  I think being brief gives her a smaller target.  Saying to much at once might be too much. 


Title: Re: Oh boy...
Post by: obliv326 on October 26, 2016, 02:20:21 AM
What you say makes a lot of sense. I actually know that I did a lot of invalidating before I suspected she had BPD. It was hard not to. Something would happen that was a problem, sometimes bigger but usually not so much. It could have been solved with a simple 1-2 minute conversation... .And she would go to the end of the earth to keep it from happening. And then, pretty soon, the avoidance was an issue, and at some point I woukd have to sort of corner her and it would all come out. And of course, she wouldn't want to hear any of it, so it just turned her dodging my attacks. I'm sure I was her worst nightmare.

Which isn't to say I was wrong, of course. I'm normally such an even keeled person, esp in relationships where I like the other person. So the fact that I never knew what to do it how to communicate or get my needs met was frustrating as hell.

Since I learned about BPD and some of the tools, I've been trying to use them. We've had a lot fewer arguments, and except for one time when I had a few too many beers before we had a conversation, I've done my best to validate and de-escalate. I don't know how much she's noticed because she has attacked me a couple times, but I've done my best to be someone who doesn't stress her out.

Fwiw, I do think she liked me a lot (in fact, we actually officially started our relationship exactly a year ago. It's her birthday) I'm pretty sure of it. I think she might have resented me at certain points. I think she kind of takes me for granted now. But I think I can change that.

I did try eliciting explanations from her about certain things... .Quite a few times. Of course I never got an answer. I might get a denial of part of what I said, but never an acknowledgement or attempt at an answer. Not even an "I don't know". Instead there would be some excuse. Just like there was last week.

So yeah... .I know she won't ever tell me. She probably can't. That's why I want to do the research and see what I can find out. Maybe I can get some questions answered that way.

Thanks again, though. Your help is really appreciated



Title: Re: Oh boy...
Post by: C.Stein on October 26, 2016, 05:37:47 AM
Communication issues are not unique to BPD, nor are dislike of certain types of communication.  I would suggest to pay less attention to how communication occurs and more about what is communicated when it does.

I think she kind of takes me for granted now. But I think I can change that.

What makes you think this?


Title: Re: Oh boy...
Post by: obliv326 on October 26, 2016, 07:03:10 AM
Communication issues aren't unique to BPD. But in this case it wasn't just one form of communication. It's being around me. I get treated differently than pretty much any random schmoe who runs across her. She refuses to be alone with me. That isn't okay. That isn't a relationship. She wants and gets certain things from me. She's told me she cares about me deeply. She reaches out and brings me back into he life. But she refuses to spend time with me, even in a public place.

That not only makes a relationship impossible. It makes me feel like she's afraid of me. That hurts me deeply, bc I've tried SO hard to earn her trust. So the form of communication is important, bc I'm not wiling to have that kind of relationship and be some guy she uses for support and to get a certain type of validation while other people get to spend time with her.

That has to change


Title: Re: Oh boy...
Post by: C.Stein on October 26, 2016, 07:23:01 AM
Communication issues aren't unique to BPD. But in this case it wasn't just one form of communication. It's being around me. I get treated differently than pretty much any random schmoe who runs across her. She refuses to be alone with me. That isn't okay. That isn't a relationship. She wants and gets certain things from me. She's told me she cares about me deeply. She reaches out and brings me back into he life. But she refuses to spend time with me, even in a public place.

She is too emotionally close to you.  She may feel exposed, at risk, engulfed, so the only thing she knows how to do is to push you away, keep you at arms length ... .

That not only makes a relationship impossible. It makes me feel like she's afraid of me. That hurts me deeply, bc I've tried SO hard to earn her trust. So the form of communication is important, bc I'm not wiling to have that kind of relationship and be some guy she uses for support and to get a certain type of validation while other people get to spend time with her.

That has to change

I understand where you are coming from Obliv, but what do you hope to gain by forcing her hand?


Title: Re: Oh boy...
Post by: obliv326 on October 26, 2016, 10:21:07 AM
Too emotionally close is something I can understand. No one has ever put it out there just like that, so thank you! It was extremely helpful to see that written like that.

What do I hope to gain? Well, right now this is an untenable situation. If someone could tell me that she will eventually stop holding me at a distance and let me be close to her in every way, then I'd be more inclined to bide my time. But everyone has told me that there's every reason to expect that she won't change her behavior on her own, and if she gets her way I may spend my whole life as a guy she texts a couple times a day, while other guys get to be with her. Granted, none of them will probably stick and I will, but that's not worth it.

I'm not okay with being in this position. She's aware of it. I'm not going to constantly push her, but she does know this is what I expect and need, frankly. So what I hope to gain is a chance at a real relationship. Or for her to decide she can't take that step and that will be the reason for me to cut ties. Either position is preferable to being relegated to 15 seconds of texts per day if I'm lucky. The reason I believe that I can change the situation is because I think she wants me in her life. I told her this was a boundary. I'll give her time to work on it, but what I'm gaining is freeing myself from a position that makes me feel bad. Whatever her reasoning, it hurts me. I don't want a relationship with her like this, so I'm gaining by not being in that position anymore. In this instance, in looking out for me. Her needs are being met. They will still be met if we talk on the phone or hang out in person. I'm not particularly concerned about her compulsion to avoid me anymore. We are emotionally very close, but I've done my best to step back from doing any engulfing behaviors. I know I've done a lot of that, which is why I'm willing to give her some time. But I've told her what I need, and that's what I need.

It's been a year, and every time she lied to me or didn't give me a chance to talk or see her, it made me feel terrible. Every time some random got a chance with her in person, it made me feel even worse. I took her at her word that she acted this way all the time and she was just really cautious with everyone. That turned out to be a lie. So I've done my time sacrificing my self esteem for her comfort. I'm not willing to make that trade off anymore.

Tha said, I do think you're right on in your assessment. Are there exercises or tools you can use to ease the feelings she might have about engulfment?


Title: Re: Oh boy...
Post by: patientandclear on October 26, 2016, 08:45:17 PM
FWIW that is very similar to the boundary I ended up setting and holding with my ex. He wants/ed me in his life so sometimes he's sidled up to trying to meet that boundary. So far, he can't. Explanation is fear of it all blowing up and hurting too much.

I like you cannot be my ex's de facto primary partner and safe harbor and deep daily emotional connection if he's bestowing other more conventional trappings of intimacy on others (on his case, complete with the belief in his mind and shared with the other person that it's a profound transcendent love each time). So I respect where you're coming from.

On engulfment: think "feral cat," and don't grab. But--those feelings will arise for her no matter what you do. You can give her time and space and to the extent that feels comfortable to you, let her take the lead much of the time on contact.


Title: Re: Oh boy...
Post by: C.Stein on October 27, 2016, 06:12:53 AM
It's been a year, and every time she lied to me or didn't give me a chance to talk or see her, it made me feel terrible. Every time some random got a chance with her in person, it made me feel even worse. I took her at her word that she acted this way all the time and she was just really cautious with everyone. That turned out to be a lie. So I've done my time sacrificing my self esteem for her comfort. I'm not willing to make that trade off anymore.

Tha said, I do think you're right on in your assessment. Are there exercises or tools you can use to ease the feelings she might have about engulfment?

You have a reasonable expectations here obliv.  For myself personally, the lies would be the boundary that should never be crossed.  Deceptions and lies is what destroyed me and my relationship.

It is hard to say what her real reasons are for keeping you at arms length.  It certain seems to me she may be scared to get too close to you emotionally.  I can relate with that feeling all too well.  It also might be because she feels engulfed by your behavior towards her.  The latter you can do something about, the former is something that takes time and trust.


Title: Re: Oh boy...
Post by: obliv326 on November 01, 2016, 01:38:51 AM
Thanks again for your replies. As always they were incredibly helpful.

In the meantime, it was her birthday last week. I wished her happy birthday (it was Wednesday) and didn't hear from her all weekend. Of course she spent the whole weekend in sleazy clubs.

I sent her a pic for Halloween today, and I had decided that I was pretty much backing off. I was tired of that kind of attention and relationship, and the fact that she had time for the people in a sleazy club but not me sort of did something. She wrote again today and pretty quickly said she wished I lived closer so I could come up and walk with her tonight. That sounded positive, so I responded, keeping it brief and trying to not betray emotion or say a lot. She told me she was scared bc she had a bad weekend, but didn't want to upset me. I told her I'd be fine, and she said someone had tried to rape her on Saturday.

On the one hand, my initial reaction is that I'm not sure I believe her. I hate that, but it seems like wverytime we talk it's something sad and tragic. Plus, she's lied to me before. And she probably thinks I'm mad at her and this is a way to back me down.

On the other hand, it is exactly the kind of place where that would happen and the way she's been presenting herself it was almost bound to happen. I don't want to sound like I'm blaming the victim here, but when you constantly refer to yourself as a slut, and really show that you are aggressively courting sex, some idiotic guy is bound to get the wrong idea. And I can absolutely believe it would happen.

So my question is what do I do? I can't very well express doubt, so I've told her I'm behind her whatever she wants to do. If she wants to talk, I'll listen. If she wants to talk about something else, I'll do that. If she wants to take steps, yes. I'm behind her no matter what.

Is there a way to handle this? I'm validating my tail off, but I don't know what to do about this one... .


Title: Re: Oh boy...
Post by: C.Stein on November 01, 2016, 06:13:24 AM
So my question is what do I do? I can't very well express doubt, so I've told her I'm behind her whatever she wants to do. If she wants to talk, I'll listen. If she wants to talk about something else, I'll do that. If she wants to take steps, yes. I'm behind her no matter what.

Is there a way to handle this? I'm validating my tail off, but I don't know what to do about this one... .

Given what you have said you have good reason to doubt.  Perhaps she is exaggerating, distorting reality and playing the victim in order to take attention away from the fact she blew you off all weekend.  Perhaps some guy did try to go a little to far, although what can you do about it?  She puts you in a difficult position here as she has shown in the past to have the capability and willingness to cry wolf.  I personally would sympathize with her if she brings it up again but not take it any further.

Thing to take away from this is one sobering fact ... .you don't trust her to be honest with you.  What kind of relationship do you expect to have with this woman if you can't trust anything she says?



Title: Re: Oh boy...
Post by: obliv326 on November 01, 2016, 04:44:30 PM
That's exactly what I will do. Like I said, no matter how much I might doubt, I simply can't start questioning her account here. I really REALLY hope she wouldn't lie about that... .And for what it's worth, this HAS happened to her before. From what I could gather, she has had people attempt to rape her several times, and they have actually done it at least twice. I don't believe, for a second, that it should be a woman's responsibility to avoid rape, but when it happens that often, I think something needs to change. Maybe stop spending time around those people, if nothing else. Clearly someone is getting the wrong idea, and I don't want her getting hurt. And fwiw, I do believe her.

Typically, if she isn't telling the truth, she trips herself up. But I'm going to take her at her word on this one while remaining privately skeptical. I'll be supportive. If she is lying, though, then that's it. Ik cutting ties, and I'm letting people know. That kind of person is dangerous to have around and there needs to be consequences for those actions.

As for the honesty issue... .You're absolutely right. I guess the hope is that she has learned to value me and therefore tell the truth? Naive? Probably. But that's where hope lives, I suppose. Also, I completely expected her to blow me off this weekend. It was not only Halloween weekend but her birthday was last week. I'm sure she packed as much partying in as possible, so it didn't surprise me.

Anyway, that's where this is.


Title: Re: Oh boy...
Post by: obliv326 on November 02, 2016, 04:30:50 PM
So I found out that she wasn't lying. She did nearly get raped. I'm glad that wasn't a lie. I'm not glad that it happened.

It would be nice to think that it would make her realize that she's trusting the wrong people and not trusting the right ones (this is at least the 6x someone has attempted to rape her. At least 3 have been able to actually do so). It certainly doesn't make me feel any better that she trusts people who do this to her, but doesn't trust me... .I immediately think I must be 20x the creep those guys are if she refuses to even be alone with me... .If her radar is that far off but I'm pinging it... .What's funny is, MOST women I know feel IMMEDIATELY safe with me, and they should. I would do anything to keep them safe. I absolutely respect their limits and, frankly, I don't just see them as a sex object.

Anyway, the drama I deal with for this girl... .


Title: Re: Oh boy...
Post by: C.Stein on November 03, 2016, 08:22:09 AM
It would be nice to think that it would make her realize that she's trusting the wrong people and not trusting the right ones

Why do you think she is putting herself into situations that can lead to this?


Title: Re: Oh boy...
Post by: obliv326 on November 05, 2016, 05:06:50 AM
Why? That's an incredibly good question. I'd have to play psychiatrist a bit to answer, but what I think is happening is that she is someone who never got a lot of attention... .Her parents were pretty neglectful, she didn't have a lot of friends... .And she found she could get attention for her sexuality. It almost doesn't matter to her if it's good attention or bad. It's something... .Validation... .It's interesting bc when we had our fight that led to our "break up", that's the first place she went... .Immediately jumped back into that.

I was actually mentioning to someone's couple weeks ago that I was amazed she hadn't been raped in the last few months. I'm really sorry that it happened to her. So sorry... .But we live in a world where there are lots if clueless guys, and while you shouldn't have to be concerned with that, if you ignore that fact you can get yiurself in trouble. I hate that it's that way, but unfortunately it is.


Title: Re: Oh boy...
Post by: obliv326 on November 28, 2016, 03:16:09 PM
So quickly... .for the past few weeks, it has been a little less dramatic. I haven't heard from her as much, but I know she's been dealing with her stuff, and I know the attempted rape understandably upset and scared her. In response, she's started doing stuff with her church, which I suppose can be good or bad, and just yesterday told me that she plans on leaving the "sex club" thing behind. This is really good news, as I think it was very bad for her in pretty much every way, and was a prime example of the way pwBPD sometimes undertake damaging activities after a negative situation. And personally, it was deeply hurtful to me, so if she goes through with that, I think it is a win win all around for everyone.

She also has seemed to be in a better mood on occasion, and we've had some okay, somewhat pleasant conversations.

I don't always know how to respond when she says something. Like yesterday, when she said that she was leaving the whole sex club scene, I asked if something had happened, and offered to listen if she needed it. Then told her that I just wanted her to be okay and that whatever she felt like she needed to do, I was behind her. She responded that nothing in particular had happened, but she felt like she didn't need to be around people who didn't care about her. I replied that I understood and that this made sense.

I'm doing my best to validate, and not overstate anything. At the same time, I feel like I'm repeating myself a lot. Is there ever a time to just clarify, or acknowledge that I'm not just repeating myself and I am present? That I don't always know what to say but I want her to know I'm with her and supporting her? Or am I overthinking again?

Thanks in advance for your help.