BPDFamily.com

She left coming up on three years ago.  Two years ago after new year's was the last time she was angry with me. I confronted her a year later after she went overseas with her beau and got engaged. I took care of the kids of course.  I told her that only 10% of remarriages to affair partners lasted longer than 6 years.    I also ridiculed the idea since he was 8 years younger than she,  18 more than me.  I later found out, just this past summer,  that the spread was 10-10-10, him being 21 when they first hooked up,  she 31 with two little kids.  Not my best moment,  but the last time we had anything close to an argument.  She was so sure of herself.  I thereafter let it go.

Things haven't gotten better since she assaulted him two months ago.  Tonight,  she said she's making plans (to leave).

Though he has his own anger issues,  she triggers him by shaming. S6 talked to me about some stuff this past week.  He was sympathetic to him,  not her.

So did I get what I wanted?  That it wasn't me?  If course some of it was me,  detaching while in the r/s, so sick of the shaming and WOE not knowing who I'd awake to on a Saturday morning even if the previous night was good.  I didn't always handle it well. I'm a super independent person.  My failure was taking words at face value while not seeing the truth underneath.  That's in the past,  moving on... .

So we are left with his huge,  unnecessary drama.  I'm not even saying what I've wanted to say for three years,  anticipating this,  "you've sure made a mess of all of our lives." She knows it.  No need to shame further.  The danger is that she's still hiding this,  trying to control it,  not having told her family this yet. I think this is a mistake because her H seems sold on the fantasy of this family unit.  He's using religion to forbid her from divorcing. Never mind the whole adultery (I'll concede this one given that we weren't married), but the coveting commandment for sure. I think he's been punished (by her) enough.  If he's smart,  he'll let it go and get on with his life.  She doesn't even trust him to watch the kids by himself anymore.  

It's all but done,  no matter all of the therapy and recent couples counseling. I can take the drama and deal with it (I grew up with a BPD mother after all which was constant drama), but our poor kids don't deserve this.  Like me,  and like her (with BPD parents), they'll just have to play the hand they've been given.  I'm not angry at this point,  I'm just sad for our children.  

Edit: she just asked me if she could move back in for 6 months to save money.  Huh?

Funny how another person's misery never really acts as vindication to us as we grow older and wiser, isn't it?

That does seem like a mess. And it is largely her mess. I'd say it's time for charts and arrows for you in figuring out a plan for the kids. They've been you're number 1 priority for a while now in this ordeal. I don't mean to minimize this too much, but it might help to just think of this as a bump in the road despite how you feel about the predictability of the situation. This was a likely outcome... .given the circumstances. And you have already shown that you're more than capable of setting appropriate boundaries and doing your best to ensure that they have the best future available to them.

And I definitely would say no to that last second move in request, but I think you already know that.

And how are you feeling about that^ ?

No truer words written!

How do I feel? Surprisingly not surprised, shocked, or angry. I waited until this morning to answer. I probably went too long explaining it. I stressed a safety plan. She said she thought about it later last night and agreed bad idea. A little while later she said she needed to fix this (Meaning herself) and apologized for putting me and the kids through this due to her poor choices.

At face value, it appears to be a "grass is always greener," failure story.  Now she's trying to weasel her way back in.  I think it takes audacity to do that and then try to reconcile with the exact same person that was betrayed.  It's almost like saying, "you weren't good enough, your replacement wasn't good enough and now I'm going to settle for something that originally wasn't good enough." But hey, at least I'm in familiar territory  If it were me, I'd tell her to "F*** Off."

Well, there is that,  Warcleods, and a friend at work who divorced a likely Borderline 15 years ago thinks similarly.  However,  we have kids,  4 and 6. Besides, I'm tired of being angry. 

That being said,  I further texted today.  I asked her if she was sure,  that she wasn't being impulsive,  and that I wasn't encouraging this, that I wasn't trying to control her,  but my only concern was that she was safe,  which means the kids.  I asked her if she had anyone wise in her life to talk to,  other than those who from my view were dysfunctional enablers the last time.  I know exactly whom she talked to then because she shared some of it with me at the time. 

She said this is why she is sharing with me,  that most of the people meant well, but they weren't helpful. I should have left it there,  but I asked what she meant. 

A few hours later,  she texted back that she shared with them her feelings,  and that they told her to move on and find her own happiness.  I'm sorry l but life isn't Eat, Pray, Love. Then she said that she realized that it was her desire to be about her rather than fighting (herself?) for our family. Really?  We had a 1 and 3 year old at home.  S then 3 used to ask.  "Where's Mommy?" D then 1 articulated stress as she could.  What a bunch of empty,  self centered people.  Though most of them were girlfriends, not all were.  I see one of them at birthday parties twice a year.  I was angry earlier, then t not,  but am again.  However, I'm smiling,  because I think I'm acting like that unnamed  character from The Simpsons who used to say,  "what about the children?" Humor=internal self-soothing technique.

Both vindication, and a mess.  What you wrote about "you sure made a mess of all of our lives" is so simple and yet it pretty much sums it all up.  It's a waste, but it happened.  Her analysis that people encouraged and supported her to take the easy way out and indulge her impulses is very interesting.  So sad.

Turkish,

I hope you will not allow her to move back in.  That is the 'fixer role' again.  She made her messy bed and now she needs to lie in it.  She can find her own place to live, even if she has to move in with several friends/family.

She is once again looking for a quick fix.  If you allow her to move in, regardless of what you tell the kids, they will believe in their sweet, innocent hearts that all is well.  That Mommy and Daddy are getting back together.  And it will CRUSH them when she decides that what she thought was the answer was not.

You need to let her go.  She is the mother of your children.  Nothing more.

Agreed. Unfortunately, it's not a show you can watch from the safety of your living room, enjoying the vindication. It's something that has plenty of potential to grab you in its tentacles and pull you in. Do what is necessary for your kids and avoid entanglement in everything else, no matter how tempting.

I know what you mean about waiting for this moment to arrive... .I think I will be waiting much longer than you, but I do think it's a vindication.  I doubt it feels as good as we thought it would. She could recycle him too... .sounds like she is trying to get you back into the mess. Try and stay calm and non reactive if you can. I heard the two best lines for dealing with them and their actions; " It's not that they aren't aware, it's that they don't care" & "It's not that they don't see, they disagree"... .Hope everything works out for every one involved.

Anyone with a lick of common sense could have predicted this. I did, and predicted the violence, too. In other news, I got a call from the neighbor, and my mother took a bad fall and the ambulance just took her away. So problems here, and problems 130 miles away with a pwBPD who's painted me persecutor. They may not even call me due to medical privacy laws. Wonderful.

I see the vindication. Evidence that it wasn't you that caused all this last time 'cuz it was as bad or worse without you, and that you were correct in seeing that this wasn't likely to go well.

And no, it doesn't taste all that good, and any "good" feeling about it sure doesn't last long.

All that is left is the mess. And that your children will suffer from it. Sigh.


I'm assuming you have joint custody with her. Can you offer to take the kids 100% as long as she needs when she first moves out? It should be cheaper/easier for her to find a place for just herself than for herself plus two kids.

I offered that.  When she assaulted her H in front of the kids and told D4's T in front of me,  the T suggested they stay with me until things calmed down.  My ex refused.  She doesn't have me,  she's detaching from her H. She only has the kids.  This isn't simple. D4 called her tonight.  She sounded ok, but that doesn't mean anything other than what it is for today.

I know you knew this crisis was coming in one form or another, Turkish. Would it make sense for you to add some extra sessions with your own fine therapist to help keep you on track until your ex gets herself resettled?

I have an appointment this afternoon.  I need insight on how to explain this to the kids as well (yet again),  which sounds like soon. 

You've been so steady. Yet this is really tough.  |iiii

Talked to the T today.  His rates are going up to $200/hr the first of the year.  They already went up,  but he's given me a break since I'm a good customer.  Silicon Valley. 

I talked a little first about my mother.  I wasn't going to share this here and mix boards, but he agreed with my actions, even not wanting my BPD mother back in my home,  "you're not a hospital." Digest that as you will according to your detachment from your romantic partner.  I'm digesting it given mine. 

All in all,  he observed that me being stable, not to mention kind,  was attractive (Objectively), so it wasn't surprising that my ex is reaching out,  though I really don't feel this is a recycle.  She's vulnerable now on so many ways: emotionally, financially.  I feel that in some way I could push a recycle.  Recycles take two,  however.  I'm not a victim,  but a survivor. 

I bemoaned the fact that yet again I'd have to explain a husband going away.  My T said that it was better in the long run (even though I told him about S6 being sad how his mom treated his step dad. ... a concept which I had to explain to the kids). That SD was basically a boy and as he grew,  SD wouldn't likely be able to provide what S6 needed.  He's 24. I'm 45, but even at his age,  I was far ahead of him in so many ways.  So was my ex (at least externally). What was she thinking?  My T said that everything I predicted came true.

As always, your therapist is giving solid, practical counsel regarding your mother. (In my opinion, anyway.)

You and he then spoke about your ex's vulnerabilities at this time. That part sounds solid too.

I'm not following as well the discussion about your own vulnerabilities to this new situation. You knew it was coming in some form, and you had a plan for meeting it. But now you're facing it for real. And it's potentially open-ended as a situation/choice/temptation. That could be perilous even to strong resolve. And it seems that the thing you are having to ask yourself to resist is the thing that you have wanted most in your life: a complete family.

Thanks for throwing water in my face KC. I hadnt thought of that,  my deep desire or need.  Like when my ex said that (in retrospect) she should have fought for our family rather than chasing her own desires. As much as I couldn't stand being in the same room with her the first year,  I let that feeling go away.  it would be unhealthy and dangerous for us to be in close proximity again,  not because I fear being punched.  

My T asked me today what I've done lately for fun.  I should have anticipated that, one of those therapist "tricks." I just gaped at him.  He said,  "what,  nothing?" I did the Peanuts trombone "wah-wah-wah-wah." He laughed.  

I signed papers to refi my house today into a 15 year loan.  Next is deciding how to disposition it to make sure my ex can't get control and likely mess it up.  A lawyer.  More money.  :)ecisions.  Where's time for "fun? " the question really was,  "what are you doing to take care of yourself?" I haven't a clue,  and it doesn't register with me.  It might seem hypocritical that I ask the same question here of others on occasion, but I'm concurrently searching for an answer myself.  Maybe there is no answer that anyone else can give us.  

Turkish, I would just like to commend you on your ability to let your anger go and putting your children first. I know that is not an easy task with a pBPD mom to your children. In the end your children will come out the winners with your stability.  |iiii
Try to schedule some "me" time to recharge your batteries. This situation has the potential to be very draining!

 :)

My sister is a fan of the genre of "memoirs of really horrific childhood," or something like that. So she sends me her copies of stuff like The Glass Castle. I think she is on a perpetual quest to convince herself our own childhood wasn't that bad. (And god knows it wasn't.)

But yours was that bad. I think that like the author of Glass Castle you may fall into that rare bird category of adult who went on to "thrive" following such a childhood. But really, those of you who did aren't like the rest of us. And maybe in some ways even beyond the complete understanding of a therapist who has not had a similar experience.

I was kind of wishing a new woman had entered your life by the time this inevitable dislocation of your ex's life presented itself. This is going to be really tough.

That's all I've got.

I'm not trying to offend here but, to me you seem very involved with the ex and her life and her drama.  I get that you want her stable for the kids and that yes you must have some relationship with her because of the kids but I question your roll with their mother. You are not her husband, lover, father or in some ways even her friend... .she is your ex-wife.  For the next 10+ years are you going to be her caretaker, support, advice provider so that she is stable for your kids?  What are your boundaries around this relationship?   What are you getting out of the relationship the way it is?

I agree with your T there is a lot of focus on other people what about you? 

Just some food for thought.
Panda39

My thoughts are along the lines of Panda39, yet, I was worried about appearing offensive, so I'm cheating and chiming in after it has been said.

I always relate to your story Turkish, I too was adopted, and to a woman with uBPD.  I was raised to believe that my value, my worth, was in what I could provide to others in some form.  Having needs, desires, enjoyment for myself was not really a part of my upbringing.  I too find it hard to take time for myself to enjoy life.

After my breakup, I am facing a reality that there may be a better way to assign myself value.

I am trying to find value and appreciate myself without that being DEPENDENT on me "giving"/"helping" others.

Not saying being a giver or helper is bad.  (I think I even recall your T reaffirming this script of yours)

Just that I feel it is important that I have a sense of Self beyond it being attached to other people and such. 

I hope that makes sense.

Storytime: I've got a dear friend. She has a 4yo son now. ~Three years ago, she went from victim to survivor, got her abusive BPD/NPDh out of the house, legally separated and over a couple years went to thriving. Son was doing great. Her career was taking off. Found a good non-abusive boyfriend. Broke up with him cleanly because he wasn't right for her, and went forward. Is spending time and energy on amazing friends. Even finding peace with BPDmom, a combination of kindness and good boundaries. BPD/NPDh was doing pretty well, was responding to boundaries well. Did well at coparenting (still mentally ill, so flaked out occasionally, but whatever. He was 100X better than when they were married and living together.) Son really loved his dad.

A career change pushed them into a situation where it "made sense" to move back in together, as more of a coparenting, companionate marriage. They did so, ~six months ago.

A month in, my friend knew it was going badly. Never quite as bad as when she was a victim, but it was going badly. And she was trying to convince him to go gently. She was afraid that if she forced him out, he would have a complete meltdown and it would be bad for her son. They went back and forth... .he would agree... .then dysregulate and not leave. Five months went by. This weekend she plans to move herself and her son out. Final divorce paperwork/negotiations are underway.

This friend wasn't a victim. She wasn't even surviving. She was thriving. Nobody in my life is stronger, or has better boundaries.

And she just acknowledged to her self (and me) that her r/s with NPD/BPDh is unhealthy and has to change.

That she even tried this is almost insane. That she did this without falling back into accepting abuse is an amazing indication of how strong she is.

If I asked her how she felt about this whole situation, I'm pretty sure that looking back she would say that it turned out like a bad idea/mistake. She knows it harmed her son, (emotionally) although he should recover. It cost her too, although I don't think it harmed her.

Turkish, she's as loyal to her pack as you are to yours. I don't think she would regret giving NPD/BPDh this chance. She still cares about him. Even though she is more DONE with him today than she's ever been before in her life.



Turkish, it sounds like you are currently surviving well and starting to ask yourself how you can thrive in this world. Keep at it. Please don't kid yourself that you are strong enough to "manage" living with your ex again. Even if you stay 100% strong, centered, and grounded, think about your ex. A pwBPD's behavior gets worse with people the closer they are. Letting her move back in with you will make her worse. Even if you are strong enough to take that, don't subject your kids to it. No matter how enticing the fantasy sounds or looks.

Hi Turkish,

Wow. I don't really have anything to add, but I am sorry to hear that you and the children are going through this. You've helped me quite a bit on these boards. Just sorry to see you in this. Wishing you and the children the best!

Apollo

Thank you all for your support and feedback. 

GK- you are right that she still cares about him but is more done than ever. 

After a school function this morning,  I talked to her.  The pretext, and I planned this, was giving her our son's school pictures.  She asked how much she owed me. I said it was fine,  that it sounded like she might need to save (here my tone was careful to not trigger her). I asked her what was going on,  would they work it out.  A 1 bedroom apartment is at least $2k/mo in our town.  That's mid level.  She's still been paying almost all of it,  I'm sure a huge point of contention. 

She said he refuses to go to couples counseling, since he thinks she will use this as an avenue to support divorce. He still goes out at all hours of the night,  not even being there for dinner when the kids are.  Her T, whom she saw 2 days ago,  said it sounded like he was having an affair (I think this too, but didn't say it). I did say,  "maybe,  maybe not, but it isn't like a gym is full of eye candy."  Then she expanded upon the story of where she told me he supposedly "accidentally" slapped her hand.  Here is where I'm not sure where the truth and lies lie. 

They were arguing.  The kids were asleep in the room.  She got so angry she threw her phone at him.  Like last time,  he cried,  "you just battered me!" I was thinking, "dude, this is twice now.  Can you just call the cops?" She stopped and read crawling on the carpet under the table looking for her phone.  Then he punched her hand hard.  He said it was an accident and that he meant to punch the table. Even so,  even if she is also the aggressor (criminally so), punching objects is still DV. So I said,  "so it's still mutual."

She said that she told her T that when she and I would argue,  it never once crossed her mind to get angry enough to hit me.  I'm a calm person.  Almost Zenith  (which drove her nuts in other ways, but I knew when to stop because I read her and the situation).

She said she's told him several times that he needs to leave or she needs to. They are equal on the lease.  It sounded like rents have gone up so she's stuck. She said she can't go back to her mom's house, as her mom would drive her nuts. I agree.  And she pointed out that her brother,  the one who likely molested D4, was there as well. 

As to your point,  GK, I said that it sounded like she didn't love him,  or wasn't in love with him anymore.  She didn't deny it,  though she said she still cared for him.  She might have added "somewhat" but her affirmation was weak. It sounds like the end of next month is her plan. They're both bad actors . I checked his Facebook page and he posted a pic of them,  commenting how beautiful she was and how much he loved her.  Really? He's not taken charge of his home.  Still phoning it in as a H and step-father? He's lost and as stuck as she is.  He's the one I should be helping ("leave, before she further ruins your life or you end up in jail!".

After all that has happened,  she told me that she can't control herself around him (the anger,  battery). And she's telegraphing that she needs physical seperation, also telegraphing that it will get worse. It will.  I told her again that there were no the strikes here.  So the kids were in the other room asleep.  I said that if it were viewed that they were in danger and I didn't take action,  the kids might end up in foster care while we were both evaluated. 

Here's where popcorn gets thrown at the screen: I sensed that she wanted a hug. She asked,  so I accepted. I told her she needed to be safe. 

I thought about this for a few hours.  She admitted to the T before that she punched her H. It was almost reported to CPS. She knew what the likely outcome would be.  She was lost.  She's still lost.  Maybe me taking action would force this.  And help her not be stuck,  though that isn't my motivation.

We had talked about the kids not understanding him not being there.  I agree,  but though they like him to a degree,  they never attached to him as a step parent.  I don't think they'd be traumatized as much as confused.  This is all around the holidays,  too. Typical drama 

+1 for the above, Turkish. I'm sorry you are going through this. I can imagine how difficult it is to find time for your wellbeing and growth in the midst of working so hard to do what's right for your kids. I really admire your strength and balanced actions/reactions.

This situation reminds me of a test: are you going to revisit your past, hoping to evoke a different outcome this time? Or are you going to do the in some ways much harder thing and keep moving forward, growing and learning how to turn toward yourself? For many of us, our default mode is to turn toward others for a myriad of reasons. Sometimes it's really hard to stay put, to keep looking at ourselves and find answers within. That has been my experience; I wonder if it resonates at all?

heartandwhole

Oh no, where do people come up with these situations to torment you?

Is there another source of aid your ex can turn to, including social services, during this time of transition for her?

 

You are so clearly taking the role of Rescuer in the drama triangle. Surely you see that?

My friend's story was just a warning--even with the best of intentions on both sides and lots of improvement on both sides, your ex moving back in, even temporarily looks like a disaster. (If you can't stop yourself, set her up someplace and pay for it instead! Trust me, it will be cheaper in the long run.)

Turkish, back away from helping your ex. She's made a mess. You have been given a golden ticket to become a drama triangle rescuer. You don't want that.

The idea of supporting her, while staying out of that is attractive... .but very difficult, and the more you do and the closer she gets, the closer to impossible it becomes.

Think about what you would do for a friend who told you she was in an abusive marriage (and acknowledged that she behaved badly as well). Or a member her telling the same sort of story; I'm sure you've seen a few of those!

Offering a hug and some validation would be totally right, if there wasn't a risk of her trying to recycle/etc. As it was, I wouldn't call it the wrong thing, but I gotta say it is putting your stability and peace of mind at risk, especially if she paints you white and tries to latch onto you.


You have an obligation to protect your kids. You are involved, and need to be.

Involving CPS or police is a serious step, and could blow up at you. As you said, having the kids removed to foster care would not be an ideal solution! Talk to a lawyer, so you know what your threshold of taking drastic action has to be, and what actions you should take, and look for clean, hard boundaries.

Consider posting here on the legal board about this too. Make sure you understand the risks SOON. This situation sounds very likely to escalate, perhaps to the point where you do have to act.

Just to clarify, there's no way she's coming back into my home. She's choosing not to go back to her parents (and I kind of agree with her reasons).

Good triangulation or bad triangulation?

https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

My ex tells me things because she says "I have a right to know what's going on." Objectively,  no.  Is my boundary whether to listen or engage or not.  She's stating she's the persecutor to him,  while subtly indicating she's a victim,  and also casting herself as her own Persecutor ("I can't control myself".

I'm thinking back to what an ex Navy SEAL and Vietnam vet taught me whenI was 18) "Never volunteer information." I sure wouldn't if the situation were reversed. 

It's a good idea to talk to someone regarding at what threshold I should take action.  My T just raised his rates to $200/hr (he hasn't charged me this yet.  I'm a volume customer). I think he's preparing to retire.

Is your ex seeing a therapist/counselor at this time? (I could be wrong, but I see you mainly needing yours at this moment for the very specific purpose of threading your way through your feelings at this time of crisis for others in your life. Not because you need to take actions. . . . Maybe you can ask even ask him point blank, ":)o I need help to make sure I don't take action?"

Your ex does have actions of consequence to take. Even a person without her difficulties could use the type of help that a counselor or social worker can provide. But to ask for guidance from the man she betrayed . . . Ugh. A mess, even if it is a type of vindication for him.

Hello Turkish,

I have been following your story for a while and I'm empathizing.
Good on you that you are seeing you don't want to live again with your ex.

Do you think it's a wise idea to listen to all of her stories ?

xx

Your ex will try to yank you into the unhealthy version.

I'd recommend validating what you can... .biting your tongue 'till it bleeds to stop yourself from offering any good advice... .and maintaining whatever distance, both emotional and physical you need to keep yourself safe from her drama.

You may need to shut down the oversharing. Can you do it in a way that makes it all about yourself, and not about her? That really is your reason, right? That you will become a mess yourself if you go to far into this... .

I'm not so sure that this is an ideal (or even somewhat applicable) situation to take advantage of the 'good' triangulation triangle modes. It seems like the ship is sinking on her end, and with your status as father of her children, you're going to go down with her unless you make sure you don't.

I think that means that I'm in agreement with Grey Kitty. Any involvement that can't be resolved quickly from a legal perspective should be avoided. This means coaching her and him, regardless of your intentions. I know that this is complicated and no one here really has the right to tell you to bail as best as you can while still supporting the kids. That said, and you've been very focused so far, I still wouldn't want to dwell any closer. The whole thing sounds like a ticking time bomb. She's not making any moves to change things, and neither is her H.

Does she have a safety plan? Does he? How are you documenting all of this?

Her younger sister invited me over to the family's house for thanksgiving.  I gave up the kids two years ago because I had no other options that day (I did event security for a homeless outreach downtown,  and did the same last year). This year it will be the kids and I, 3 of us.  I politely declined the invite.  I could be there if I wanted,  and am able now to interact with my ex for more than a few minutes without major anxiety,  but I really don't want to be there.  The family seems to have forgiven me for calling the cops on the uncle who may have molested  D4 1.5 years ago (my T told me they'd get over it,  but I didn't believe him), but un charged uncle will be there (another reason why my ex doesn't want to move back on there,  even if our daughter is safe otherwise due to the boundaries we've drawn).

So I've bought a turkey portion,  some ham, vegetables,  potatoes and stuffing mix.  I'll be eating most of it for 3 days,  the kids being picky.  I do kind of want to go over there,  and it's not because I'm lazy.  Cooking is no big deal to me,  even if my little imps will pick at it. 

We have another appointment with D4's counselor in a week.  I read thinking of contacting her myself,  but I'm going to encourage my ex to tell the T her plan.  She did admit to the T the first incidence of her battery. Even though I felt my Ex was somewhat ambivalent about executing her plan to leave,  her words,  "I don't think I can control myself around him" telegraph to me that she won't or is incapable. She could have an epiphany, but... .who am I kidding.  They're both stuck. The kids mention him more positively lately,  which sucks if we have to explain his eventual absence. I'm sure she won't explain it right. 

How am I documenting? I haven't been.  Maybe I need to go back through my text logs this weekend and back date a planner or journal. 

I think you're doing important work in side-stepping your ex and her family. And it's a rough time to be doing this.

You saw this far into the future (ex and affair-partner / husband breakup). Can you see farther still into the future? What is your ex's history with men? Is she ever alone for a long period? Will a new guy show up soon after the old one departs? Is there any chance he will bring stability to your ex? And, frankly, the income one just has to have to live in your neck of the woods?

A couple of years ago when you were looking into your crystal ball, didn't you speculate that you'd feel much better about your ex's household and her partner when it was no longer the "affair partner" she was with? I mean, this guy had to go, didn't he? Because betrayal does lead to this. And when he went, things had to get really tough for a while, as they are now.

I hope there are better Thanksgivings ahead for you and the kids. But maybe even this one can be good. That "thriving" idea, it's an intriguing one.

I definitely thought that, but he's a known quantity.  My ex was with a brief bf she wasn't in love with a year before me (she ended up getting an RO on him... .I found a copy of it last month when I was doing deep cleaning in the hall closet), and The One she told me she still wasn't over before him,  which she told me about.  Before him,  she was in high school,  and only one other guy, so not a long history.

When I met her,  she was in hermit mode.  She even described herself as a hermit. I think that she'll go into hermit mode for a while after this one.  She's self aware enough to know how royally she's messed this up.  Like my T said two years ago,  "she trusts you enough to ask for advice,  but don't over do it." My advice would be,  "keep the next one away from the children for 6-8 months,  better a year until you're sure," but it's likely to be shaming. I'll deal with it add it comes. 

She's chopped her hair.  Dyed it from black to blonde. She looks very different than a year ago.  I showed a buddy at work today.  He said she doesn't look good,  but old.  I haven't talked to her other than a few brief texts about school.  I'm going to take this one day at a time,  all the while anxious about how it may go of I need to involve the authorities.  I get the kids tomorrow.  My first Thanksgiving alone with them.  I'll focus on us. 

Saw her yesterday at a school function. Her update is that she secured another apartment and is moving at the end of the month (I'll have the kids during this time). Same complex, which is good for the kids. Her H doesn't want to because he says that this isn't how married couples live (here I'm reminded of my T's observation that he's engaging in spouse--- and I could say "marriage"--- worship). I agree with my T's observation and thought something along those lines myself before he mentioned it.

I told her that sometimes couples can take a therapeutic separation and it helps. He's going to rent a room somewhere else. She said he's still going to therapy and has been sharing with her his therapy journals. I didn't comment on that, as I wouldn't. He's still putting himself in a one-down position. It was a short conversation and I said that it sounded like she has taken steps to keep the kids safe, which is my concern. She said that the kids really like [H's name]. She's considering the implications of leaving, yet again, on the kids this time, unlike when she left me. Then she told me an interesting story.

I don't think her H was there, but she couldn't find something of hers and started saying that her H took it. S6 was there and said, "Mommy, it isn't nice to accuse someone of doing something they may not have done [I think he got this from me]. Besides, even if he did, he still loves you." That caused her to pause and she realized that S6 was right. Again, I resisted commenting, when what I really wanted to say was that it was pretty sad that a 6 year old has a more developed sense of empathy than a person three decades older. She then looked away and said, "A lot of this is me. I realize that I have a lot of work to do, that I have issues," or something to that effect.

So, it looks like crisis averted for now. Maybe that's their marriage for a while. He's giving her more money now, which is helpful to keep her from being stressed (honestly, I'd be stressed, too... .this is a young new college grad who seems "here and there", not someone who's been laid off of otherwise fallen on hard times). All in all, I sensed a load of stress relieved on her side. I still didn't see her wearing her wedding ring, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. I'll probably see the H next in a few months at the next birthday party. We shall see what the new year brings.

Hey Turkish
I read the entire thread and just wanted to say that I think you are doing an amazing job handling yourself and the welfare of your children.

Keep us posted and I am sending good thoughts to you.  In some weird way all that we put out there comes back to us and I think all your efforts will come back to you through the love of your children now and more so when they are old enough to recognize the selfless-love that you have given.

I wish it were over.  I can handle a mother (my Ex) diagnosed with depression and anxiety,  who also had BPD traits.  It's all this other stuff,  however.  

She just called me.  I knew it was important because the kids were long asleep by now. She's three weeks from moving out,  her H renting a room somewhere.  The conflict isn't ending. The kids weren't witness, but they got into another argument and she threw her shoe at him.  In a way,  this is funny,  because throwing shoes is a Mexican Mom way of dealing with things.  Nevermind that is battery.  I've seen the memes.

She said that he is now recording her verbal abuse. He is as well and he told her.  I pointed out that this was illegal in our state,  though it might be useful if the cops were called.  

She said that he told her that he's recording her and that he could take the kids from her due to her abuse. I said that's an empty threat as he has no legal standing there,  and that would be an Amber Alert if he tried.  

Unfortunately,  he arrived home as she was on the phone with me.  I again said that it would be better if the kids were with me at nights,  and she could bring them to me late.  She said he's not a danger to the kids.  I agree,  overtly. But I pointed out that he threatened to take them.  

I briefly talked to her that he was all about him,  looking good,  and that losing what he thought of as the trophy wife and kids is likely triggering him.  He's getting desperate, and that's concerning.  Several older women (60s) in my life have said,  "she needs to lay off.  She's triggering him!" Though that's true, he's the stronger partner by far, and is thus more the physical danger.  

Before he got there,  she was complaining about him cooking and not cleaning up after himself and she getting frustrated about getting home from work with kind and having to clean.  Really? Focus on the pettiness, and escalate drama.  I'll see her Friday evening,  maybe.  I'll talk to her again about the kids staying with me at night until she's moved out and separated.

Ugh. Tough for her. Tough for her H. And scary for you 'cuz something could happen to your kids, or they could see something.

Would she be receptive to a few tips that might help her de-escalate things with him?

You've certainly learned a few things 'round here!

I've told her and told her.  She says she can't control herself, which contradicts the Duluth Model of DV which says that violence is a choice, but that's a whole other subject.  I get the kids this weekend and will see her friday morning at school.  I'll talk to get again.  I may need to be harsher. 

You know, it isn't your job to fix her or save her... .you know at what point you have to act to protect your kids, and anything short of that you don't have to do.

So I'm not surprised that she "can't" do better. Ya know, if she could, you would probably still be with her.

I don't know, she's triggering him, he's probably triggering her, she's likely not going to be at her baseline. It's not worth the chance of getting split black, although you know her better than anyone on the boards.