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Part of me wants to believe this was just a normal marital argument, and I am overreacting.

Our daughter (who is 8 years old) hates going to bed; she develops mysterious tummy pains and fears when it's time to go, and I usually try to address them in as brisk a manner as possible. Give her Calpol for the pain, briefly tell her there's nothing to be afraid of, sing her a quick lullaby etc.

Last night I got her to bed and she started crying, telling me she's terrified of ghosts, murderers, and I'm trying to reassure her, all the time aware that my husband hates this happening and could storm up and shout at her to go to sleep and stop playing up at any time.

So he comes up and I try to bring him into comforting her, sitting down and giving her a hug, but he starts telling her that what she's doing is "bull****" (he's already told me to do this but I won't) and that she isn't scared of ghosts, she just wants to spin out bedtime.

We leave and go downstairs and he tells me I'm stupid for buying it and she's just manipulating me, and that instead of listening to him I react with defiance. I tell him something (can't remember what I said) but essentially disagreeing, although not loudly. He switches off the movie we'd been going to watch and starts playing a video game, tells me that I can do whatever I want this evening, then tells me to stop glaring at him. His back had been to me and I wasn't even looking at him, I was looking at the TV, so I tell him I wasn't and he gets even more furious. He shuts off the game, goes upstairs, I go too, with the intention of going into the bedroom so he can have the living room to himself. I tell him I'll stay out of his way. He says he doesn't care and snaps at me for "ruining the weekend" (which up until now had been good, close, and very enjoyable when we were together, although he was left alone for a large portion of it as I was at college and our daughter was at my parents).

He goes to our daughter's room and starts telling her that her behaviour has caused this. I go into the hallway as he comes out and tell him that swearing at her will not help (I was angry and raised my voice which made things worse), he gets more angry, tells me his rage is because I won't support him, and ends up leaving the house for the evening. By the time he comes home I'm asleep, but I wake up shortly after he comes to bed and can't get back to sleep for the rest of the night.

This morning he won't be in the same room as me. I came back to bed after getting our daughter off to school and he left the room. I didn't pursue it because I needed rest. I leave for work soon and I don't know whether to try and initiate contact or let him come to me when he's ready.

I can't tell if this is just a normal fight that any parent would have, or if this is an episode of something more. I don't even know if he actually has BPD or if I'm just reading mental illness into a normal person who just happens to get angry quickly.

Hi Caroled,

I don't think this was a "normal" argument between parents. In a "normal" argument, people may disagree, but both parents still consider the child's welfare. Normal arguments can get emotional, but don't include verbal abuse- to each other and especially not to a child. Parents can and do disagree on aspects of child rearing, but yelling at your child like that is not a disagreement. It is inappropriate.

Children can be clingy and manipulative, but not in a pre-meditated way like adults can be. Children are naturally self centered until they are more mature. Your child is 8 and wants what she wants. The tummy pains and not wanting to go to bed at night could be signs of anxiety. She may not know exactly how to express that, so she says what comes to mind- being afraid of monsters is how she feels.

I agree with your instincts to protect your child from your H's anger. It would be good if there was some way to come to an agreement that these discussions are to be between the two of you and not involve her.

Some tools here that can help you are how to deal with circular arguments- not to JADE while he is dysregulating. Also, learn about the drama triangle- drawing your child into the situation as a third person on this interaction. I think the goal of reducing the drama and conflict between the two of you is an important one, as it affects her.

However, a key concern for me is your child being the target of your H's rage. This is emotionally abusive to her. I know this sounds harsh, but I was raised by a mother with BPD and was subjected to her rages and blaming me for her problems from a young age. It has taken a lot of personal work as an adult to come to terms with the way she treated me.  Knowing that she has a mental illness has made it easier to understand, and work on forgiveness, but it is harder to understand my father's part in this.

I realize that this childhood wish for my father to have stopped this is easier said than done. I can see from the posts here how complicated these relationships are. Changes in relationships don't usually change overnight- they can take slow, steady work. But it is possible to work on changing how the two of you interact when you disagree.

For your child's sake, there needs to be a boundary about these verbal outbursts involving her. Your H seems resistant to advice from you about bedtime. He may be more responsive to a child counselor who can teach him better ways to interact with her. At some level he hopefully wants to be a good dad and may feel ashamed at how he yelled at her. BPD can affect the most intimate of relationships which is why advice from you might feel shaming and invalidating, but he may respond to a professional.

Wendy,

Thank you so much for your response. I ended up going to speak to him before I left for work this morning. I apologised for the bitterness of the argument and said I was sorry for not trying to reconnect with him afterwards, but explained that I was incredibly tired and didn't want to say the wrong thing and make it worse.

I don't know whether that'll help, or whether I'm going home to a block of ice tonight. If he'll talk to me I'm planning to suggest that we both need some assistance in trying to communicate; me to deal with my fear of conflict and him to reconcile the anger he's been dealing with his whole life.

I just feel like I'm not helping him anymore. We've had this dynamic for a long time and we've been through rough patches. If it is dysregulation that prompts his responses they seem to come in cycles which I really ought to keep track of, small mood swings almost daily, harder ones weekly, harder still monthly and REALLY bad ones every couple of years. My reactions certainly make things worse, so when I'm going through a period of depression or anxiety we end up with a kind of perfect storm, which leaves me feeling that it's my poor handling that creates the tension.

I'd like to suggest professional support but I don't know if I'll get the chance. In the past when I've encouraged him to see someone for his (diagnosed) depression he's panicked about being misdiagnosed and refused to go.

I'm approaching the end of my tether. I don't want to lose him because there is so much about the relationship that's positive - when he's well he's supportive, loving, caring, encouraging, smart, funny, and yes, a good dad - all the things I've ever wanted. But I'm so damn tired.

**Add**
I forgot to mention, he did say this morning he hates being the tyrant and hates the way he feels when he behaves like this. I know his childhood history is the root of it all and I really do believe he wants to change things. But I think if I suggest professional help for us BOTH it might help smooth the way forward. We could both do with some guidance around communication, and frankly, so could our daughter.

I would be furious if my spouse talked to my child that way.

I used to have bedtime issues with my kids when I was married to their mom. It was drama and a pain and all that. Sometimes I got excuses and other "symptoms" as a stall tactic.

What I did was just sit mine down and tell them when bed time was, and that when I said bed time, that means its time to go. I'd tuck them both in and lay with them for a few minutes until they dropped off to sleep. It took me about a week to get them situated. Now my youngest, he's 8 will put himself to bed. He gets tired and just says, dad I am going to bed. I still go lay with him some. My oldest I usually have to tell, but he goes when I tell him.

My dad even said the first time he came to my house after she left, wow, you got them going to bed drama free. It can be done.

And FWIW, I would remind your child repeatedly she isn't at fault for any argument. I have to remind mine that there is nothing they could have done that would have made me and their mom work. We just didn't work, period. Just lovingly reassure her (?) that you love her and its not her fault.

Your child's nighttime fears sound normal-ish. The concern that the child is manipulating you to stay up with her sounds normal-ish. And having parents disagree on how to deal with it and where to draw the line is normal-ish.

In other words, this sounds like a normal parenting issue to have to deal with and have conflict over.

Having a big fight with him over parenting issues like this. Sadly, that is probably common enough that I don't know if I'd call it abnormal.


Parents working at cross purposes in front of the child this way, with you comforting and him shouting? Not good parenting and not normal either!


Taking the fight with you (over your daughter) out on her like this is completely over the line. Not acceptable, not normal, not healthy. As Notwendy said, emotionally abusive.

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I suggest you try to address this as two and a half separate problems:

1. Your daugther's bedtime issues and fears.
Thinking that a lot of validation of her fears will help more than "tough love" / boundaries.

You can discuss strategies on this with your H... .but don't let yourself get sucked into... .

2. Circular arguments with your H.
2.5 Those arguments escalating until he involves your daughter.

You've got a very real obligation to your daughter to protect her from this, and that should mean doing better than fighting with him to stop it once he launches into her.


No, it isn't your poor handling that creates the tension. Don't blame yourself for that.

That said, you know his typical path to dysregulation pretty well by now. You don't cause it. You cannot actually stop it. What you can do is refuse to participate in it as it escalates. Remove yourself much earlier. Before it gets to your daughter.